Dr. Foxy, that's comparing a system with an individual (government), which is not a good way of viewing things.
For example, the first half of the Second Punic War involved a great individual (Hannibal) leading the armed forces of a poor system of government and winning repeatedly. But the strength of the sound constitution of Rome allowed it to weather a period of weakness and ultimately win.
The competence or failure of individuals matters far less for national success than the strength or weakness of their constitutional arrangements.
So do you consider the Brexit process to have improved the governance of the country? I see no evidence for that, and much that is the opposite.
> @Foxy said: > > @Peter_the_Punter said: > > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > > @Dadge said: > > > > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election. > > > > > > > > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending. > > > > > > > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it. > > > > > > > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers. > > > > > > > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed. > > > > > > > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass. > > > > > > > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers. > > > > > > Are you also amending your previous prediction that leaving the EU would change the UK into something like 'Singapore on speed' ? > > > > I never made such a claim. > > > > In fact, I poopooed the idea that the UK economy (utterly dependent on consumption) and the Singaporean one (high levels of household saving) could even be meaningfully compared. > > > > My argument for leaving the EU was that it would improve governance by bringing decisions back closer the people and to their elected representatives. > > After several years of "improved governance" is it reasonable to consider that actually governance is substantially worse, veering between incompetence, incoherence and ineffectiveness?
I would argue that the system is working just fine. Despite the error of calling a referendum on an issue that was 50/50, our Parliament are unable to enact such a decision due to its inablity for a group to coalesce around a solution. It is working in affect as the Super majority.
Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
> @IanB2 said: > If the LibDem recovery endures 2020 could be good for Siobhan Benita, who seemed a promising candidate when she first emerged as an Indy backed by that civil service guy.
I think she's a very impressive candidate. Sadiq is going to be tough to beat though.
What amazes me is the kamikaze attitude of the Loony Left in the Tory party. They hate it so much, they want it dead. And they are doing a good job of it!
> @Sandpit said: > > @rottenborough said: > > > https://twitter.com/ForTheRecord_DC/status/1129773652113854465 > > > > > > > > Where do I start? > > > > > > > > > > Shouldn't it have been called, peter kay's mum needs a bungalow tour, I mean David Cameron's I have a massive mortgage on a holiday house in Cornwall to pay for? > > More like "Publisher can't wait any longer to start seeing a return on their $1m advance" book tour.
I would have thought it was the minimise loses tour - there is no way that book is going to recover it's advance...
> @AlastairMeeks said: > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
The intellectual rigour of the 52% has been a shock to many of us.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
FPT > @Luckyguy1983 said: > > @NickPalmer said: > > > > @solarflare said: > > > > Interesting ChUK write-up Mauve, thanks for that > > > > > > +1. More reports like that from different events would be interesting. Has anyone hgere been to one of Farage's revivalist gatherings? > > -------- > > From the clips, the Farage events seem to be a presumably deliberately hokey and low rent version of the Nuremberg rallies. The British like to keep their fascism low key. > > The FURY of remainers at Nigel being good at politics. 'You know who else made emotive speeches?' 'You know who else used to have cheering crowds at their rallies?' It's brilliant.
==================
I accept Farage is good at politics. Fascists have also been good at politics, as has clearly been demonstrated in the past. The question is whether they are good at politics in the same way.
The Brexit Party rallies have none of the bombastic symbolism of the Nuremberg rallies, nor the scale, the length, nor the production values of the Nuremberg rallies, although those presumably started smaller and less well choreographed. The political function of both are similar: to position the Party as the only true representative of the nation and its values l,and to focus on the leader. The content of the speeches appears to be similar with their emphasis on betrayal and how the leader will overcome those malign forces.
> Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
>
> Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
>
> How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
>
> It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
On the contrary, plenty of consequences of Brexit can already be known.
Perhaps the most surprising consequence is just how hostile those Leavers who purport to love Britain have become to all the civic institutions of Britain. They'd dismantle each and every last one, including setting northern Ireland and Scotland adrift if they had to, so long as Brexit was secured.
> @Foxy said: > > @Peter_the_Punter said: > > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > > @Dadge said: > > > > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election. > > > > > > > > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending. > > > > > > > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it. > > > > > > > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers. > > > > > > > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed. > > > > > > > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass. > > > > > > > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers. > > > > > > Are you also amending your previous prediction that leaving the EU would change the UK into something like 'Singapore on speed' ? > > > > I never made such a claim. > > > > In fact, I poopooed the idea that the UK economy (utterly dependent on consumption) and the Singaporean one (high levels of household saving) could even be meaningfully compared. > > > > My argument for leaving the EU was that it would improve governance by bringing decisions back closer the people and to their elected representatives. > > After several years of "improved governance" is it reasonable to consider that actually governance is substantially worse, veering between incompetence, incoherence and ineffectiveness?
I expect Robert would say 'wrong sort of Brexit',in much the same way that apologists for communism explain its failure in practice as 'the wrong sort'.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
Well I'm significantly better off financially.
And our political and financial establishment have exposed themselves as the bunch of posturing incompetents and self-serving liars they are - this includes both Remain and Leave supporters among them.
> @HYUFD said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn. > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
Correction
We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them.
> @Cyclefree said: > It’s going to be a role reversal when a new PM comes in . > > > > The ERG will be fawning all over the no dealer whilst a group of anti no deal Tories start causing trouble . > > > > I think we’re likely to see some defections to the Lib Dems . I don’t see any more moving to Change UK. > > It’s like watching the opposite of one of those romantic dramas on TV - when you spend several series wondering whether the leads will ever get together until they finally do, to everyone’s relief. > > Here we’re watching and waiting for the Tories finally to split. I wish they’d get on with it. It’s becoming tedious now.
I think the series of rather ineffective defections has weakened the impact. Say another Tory or Labour backbencher did join CUK or The Brexit Party or whoever. We'd be mildly interested on PB, but 48 hours later we'd have forgotten. Obviously a block of 20 or 30 switching would be another matter.
Mr. Punter, there are hundreds of nations that are not in the EU. I'm unpersuaded that respecting a vote of the public and the Commons decision to support it is comparable to a system that tends to lead to economic collapse with a side dish of genocide.
In Scotland a few years ago there was a view the country was going to the dogs and the only option was massive constitutional change. So far there has been little constitutional change but 5 years of wasted opportunity in which the country has been seen as insular and backward looking. The economy has stagnated and only now is showing some green shoots. The last election saw the start of a backlash. However there is still probably a hard core of 30% of the population behind constitutional change and waiting for an opportunity.
In England and Wales we have 30% or so of the population hard core for constitutional change. It is unlikely they will change their minds any time soon irrespective of the arguments or the impact on the economy. The rest have waited for reason to prevail and as in Scotland are now moving to the parties that just oppose this group.
There is no resolution now. The revokers will not give up and neither will the no deal Brexiters without total victory. Neither have the numbers yet to impose their will fully.
Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece.
Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association?
> @AlastairMeeks said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn. > > > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited > > On the contrary, plenty of consequences of Brexit can already be known. > > Perhaps the most surprising consequence is just how hostile those Leavers who purport to love Britain have become to all the civic institutions of Britain. They'd dismantle each and every last one, including setting northern Ireland and Scotland adrift if they had to, so long as Brexit was secured.
Even in Scotland the Brexit Party is polling second ahead of the European elections and in NI the DUP still remains in charge. What is certain is that if Remainers keep blocking the implementation of the Leave vote the Brexit Party will continue to surge
Given that the election is on Thursday this week, exactly what can the Electoral Commission do in the intervening period, apart perhaps from SUBSEQUENTLY disqualifying Brexit Party MEP's. Can an individual member state do that?
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn. > > > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited > > Correction > > We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them.
The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50.
Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50
Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece.
Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association?
Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. Punter, there are hundreds of nations that are not in the EU. I'm unpersuaded that respecting a vote of the public and the Commons decision to support it is comparable to a system that tends to lead to economic collapse with a side dish of genocide.
No, that's quite right, Morris, but that wasn't my point.
I'm alluding to the way in which advocates of bad political ideas generally explain away their failure by suggesting the idea wasn't implemented 'properly'.
So, 'wrong sort of Communism', 'wrong sort of Brexit', and so on.
> Mr. Punter, there are hundreds of nations that are not in the EU. I'm unpersuaded that respecting a vote of the public and the Commons decision to support it is comparable to a system that tends to lead to economic collapse with a side dish of genocide.
No, that's quite right, Morris, but that wasn't my point.
I'm alluding to the way in which advocates of bad political ideas generally explain away their failure by suggesting the idea wasn't implemented 'properly'.
So, 'wrong sort of Communism', 'wrong sort of Brexit', and so on.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > FTPT > > Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece. > > Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association? > > Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them.
For me it's very simple. If we're going to treat Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc. a bit like pubs - the landlord decides who is and who isn't welcome - then the authorities should leave them to it. So if someone says something nasty on Twitter - that could be deemed as a hate crime, for example - it should be left to the proprietor to decide what they allow on their platform.
The police should not be used to police the internet.
> Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece.
>
> Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association?
>
> Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them.
For me it's very simple. If we're going to treat Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc. a bit like pubs - the landlord decides who is and who isn't welcome - then the authorities should leave them to it. So if someone says something nasty on Twitter - that could be deemed as a hate crime, for example - it should be left to the proprietor to decide what they allow on their platform.
The police should not be used to police the internet.
There's a place for both. We would not leave it to the pub landlord to break up a terrorist cell. The question is where we draw the line.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > FTPT > > > > > > Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece. > > > > > > Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association? > > > > > > Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them. > > > > For me it's very simple. If we're going to treat Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc. a bit like pubs - the landlord decides who is and who isn't welcome - then the authorities should leave them to it. So if someone says something nasty on Twitter - that could be deemed as a hate crime, for example - it should be left to the proprietor to decide what they allow on their platform. > > > > The police should not be used to police the internet. > > There's a place for both. We would not leave it to the pub landlord to break up a terrorist cell. The question is where we draw the line.
During the 2011 riots some idiots actually organised their actions on the internet. Stupid because it allowed the authorities to literally read the riot act to them.
So where crimes get committed in the real world - like terrorism - then what's written on the internet is very much in play as evidence, and I'd expect the platforms to be helpful in providing the evidence.
But as to what's written on the internet being treated as criminal in and of itself. No.
> @tlg86 said: > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > FTPT > > > > Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece. > > > > Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association? > > > > Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them. > > For me it's very simple. If we're going to treat Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc. a bit like pubs - the landlord decides who is and who isn't welcome - then the authorities should leave them to it. So if someone says something nasty on Twitter - that could be deemed as a hate crime, for example - it should be left to the proprietor to decide what they allow on their platform. > > The police should not be used to police the internet.
For Facebook, YouTube and Twitter, if they police content, then it shifts the argument in favour of saying they are publishers and so are subject to regulation, as opposed to mere tech platforms, where they shouldn't be regulated.
Now, if one is being cynical, one might argue that Facebook's and Google's sudden conversion to favouring regulation is driven by a desire to erect barriers of entry to new entrants.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. Punter, we don't know, having not even passed a withdrawal agreement. > > Whether leaving or not is a good idea is the debate that was (exceedingly poorly) had during the campaigns.
There are more different ideas about what 'leaving' means than there are about the meaning of 'communism'.
> @HYUFD said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > > > > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > > > > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > > > > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn. > > > > > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited > > > > Correction > > > > We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them. > > The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50. > > Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50
The ERG are the prime culprits for the impasse. Had they voted for the deal on the first occassion we would be out now.
Remainers are entitled to stop brexit, the ERG decided to join them and prevent brexit
He really is becoming the hard man of populist British politics. Our very own Erdogan What next? Hanging and flogging? He is certainly Churchillian, if only in that he is taking us back to the 1950s. Warm beer anyone?
> @Peter_the_Punter said: > > @Morris_Dancer said: > > Mr. Punter, we don't know, having not even passed a withdrawal agreement. > > > > Whether leaving or not is a good idea is the debate that was (exceedingly poorly) had during the campaigns. > > There are more different ideas about what 'leaving' means than there are about the meaning of 'communism'.
Edit: Catch you later - dog starts school this morning. Meanwhile it occurs to me that communism has the advantage of a written Manifesto, written in 1848 and subject to much revisionism but at least it was a document with the semblance of a plan. Don't recall any Leaver Manifesto. Has Nigel written one for his new Party yet?
I heard that interview and I don't think TND is reporting it fairly. What I think was in Allen's mind was a larger defection from either Labour and/or Tory that changed the nature and name of their new party. I was surprised how cold she was towards the LibDems given the longstanding rumours about her and the nature of her seat.
> @Mexicanpete said: > > @HYUFD said: > > https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1130377676244627456?s=20 > > He really is becoming the hard man of populist British politics. Our very own Erdogan What next? Hanging and flogging? He is certainly Churchillian, if only in that he is taking us back to the 1950s. Warm beer anyone?
Sam you have been consistently saying how if TBP doesn't live up to all the hype it will (unfairly in your view) be labelled a failure. And yet you on here seem to be repeating and hyping every share and like and poll so does that not make you a contributory factor?
> If we then leave in October I see the Brexit Party basically collapsing to current UKIP levels and the Tories regaining a little more again. But again I think the Lib Dems will maintain most of their gains.
>
> I am pretty sure that most people do not and will not see TBP as a party of Westminster or Government if we Leave. If we Remain I don't know.
>
> If we leave, the existential questions about the future relationship will still be unresolved, and the Brexit Party will be able to feed on a perception that our hands are tied by the legacy of May's negotiations. There will be no reason for the polarisation to abate.
I disagree. There are a small hard core who will never accept anything other than a complete break but they represent only a few % of the public. If we leave and are outside the institutions of the EU then most Leavers will desert Farage. If we do not leave then I have no idea what will happen.
If the WA had passed, we wouldn’t be having these Euro Elections, Farage would be complaining on LBC, and very few people would care.
<i>"It increasingly feels to me as if something is afoot akin to the massed waking-up to the state of the country that happened in 1997, only this time there is no universally popular political force that can mop up all the anxiety, as Tony Blair’s Labour party did. Instead, middle-class angst adds to the inescapable sense that just about everything in Britain is riven with unfixable cracks.
There is a rising Tory fantasy about the party’s immediate post-May future, which seems to be based around victory in a general election, a new leader going back to Brussels full of swagger – and, if need be, Britain stoically going it alone. If that happens, the revolutionary, Brexit-or-nothing school of modern Conservatism will reach peak arrogance, thinking the ghost of the blessed Margaret Thatcher is cheering everything on, and that its moment of destiny has arrived. The truth is the exact opposite: whatever its delusions, hyper-Toryism – and, by extension, the Conservative party itself – is sliding into a elemental crisis from which it may never recover."
Given that the election is on Thursday this week, exactly what can the Electoral Commission do in the intervening period, apart perhaps from SUBSEQUENTLY disqualifying Brexit Party MEP's. Can an individual member state do that?
It did cross my mind that the whole Brexit Party intervention would be used to cancel the poll. I even wondered briefly if Farage was in on the plan.
I spend too much time on Twitter. Conspiracy theories are contagious.
> @another_richard said: > > @Mexicanpete said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1130377676244627456?s=20 > > > > He really is becoming the hard man of populist British politics. Our very own Erdogan What next? Hanging and flogging? He is certainly Churchillian, if only in that he is taking us back to the 1950s. Warm beer anyone? > > Has anyone ever drunk warm beer ? > > It seems a rather stupid thing to say.
Now if you want to make cultural references to the 1950s then how about:
Trilby hats and head scarves, gasometers and coal fires, morris minors and ford poplars, Billy Wright and Peter May.
> @rcs1000 said: > > @Dadge said: > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election. > > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending. > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it. > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers. > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed. > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass. > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers.
The problem is that BoJo is NBG...
The closer people are to him the more they oppose him for leader, not just Gove but more or less anyone who spends non trivial amounts of time with him. He may have written a better book than JRM, but that is a pretty low bar... He is an upper second mind marred by laziness, complacency and disorganization. As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable, as Mayor of London he rode on the coat tails of others, such as Tessa Jowell. His judgement is poor and his relationship with truth... flexible. In the end he has the same slightly sleazy atmosphere around him as Jeffrey Archer did and, given the Guppy scandal and others, he has been lucky to escape the same fate.
Mr. Cabinet, missed your post before but I agree. Major internet players want to entrench their current advantage to avoid the fate of Myspace. Given the ineptness of governments generally to deal with technology, one suspects they might succeed.
> @Cicero said: > > @rcs1000 said: > > > @Dadge said: > > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election. > > > > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending. > > > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it. > > > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers. > > > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed. > > > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass. > > > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers. > > The problem is that BoJo is NBG... > > The closer people are to him the more they oppose him for leader, not just Gove but more or less anyone who spends non trivial amounts of time with him. He may have written a better book than JRM, but that is a pretty low bar... He is an upper second mind marred by laziness, complacency and disorganization. As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable, as Mayor of London he rode on the coat tails of others, such as Tessa Jowell. His judgement is poor and his relationship with truth... flexible. In the end he has the same slightly sleazy atmosphere around him as Jeffrey Archer did and, given the Guppy scandal and others, he has been lucky to escape the same fate.
Blair had an upper second as did Attlee as did Thatcher, Brown had a first as did Portillo.
Boris has charisma and can win back voters from the Brexit Party, both are vital for the Tories to win
Sam you have been consistently saying how if TBP doesn't live up to all the hype it will (unfairly in your view) be labelled a failure. And yet you on here seem to be repeating and hyping every share and like and poll so does that not make you a contributory factor?
I don't think so, no. I haven't said what you suggest. What I have said is that people have been arbitrarily setting targets for TBP in order to give themselves cold comfort should they win by less.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > @HYUFD said: > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > > > > > > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > > > > > > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > > > > > > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn. > > > > > > > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited > > > > > > Correction > > > > > > We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them. > > > > The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50. > > > > Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50 > > The ERG are the prime culprits for the impasse. Had they voted for the deal on the first occassion we would be out now. > > Remainers are entitled to stop brexit, the ERG decided to join them and prevent brexit
No, Remainers are not entitled to ignore the Brexit vote
> @IanB2 said: > > @williamglenn said: > > https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1130366773088399360?s=21 > > On the money. > > <i>"It increasingly feels to me as if something is afoot akin to the massed waking-up to the state of the country that happened in 1997, only this time there is no universally popular political force that can mop up all the anxiety, as Tony Blair’s Labour party did. Instead, middle-class angst adds to the inescapable sense that just about everything in Britain is riven with unfixable cracks. > > There is a rising Tory fantasy about the party’s immediate post-May future, which seems to be based around victory in a general election, a new leader going back to Brussels full of swagger – and, if need be, Britain stoically going it alone. If that happens, the revolutionary, Brexit-or-nothing school of modern Conservatism will reach peak arrogance, thinking the ghost of the blessed Margaret Thatcher is cheering everything on, and that its moment of destiny has arrived. The truth is the exact opposite: whatever its delusions, hyper-Toryism – and, by extension, the Conservative party itself – is sliding into a elemental crisis from which it may never recover." >
As Trump, Scott Morrison, Salvini, Bolsonaro etc showed the way for the right to win at the moment is to listen to its own voters not advice from left liberals like Harris.
Across the West the professional graduate class may be moving left liberal but the right is winning by winning skilled working class voters from the left
> @Cyclefree said: > > @Cicero said: > > > As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable > > > > Well that settles it Boris is clearly not suitable for PM. > > > > LOL > > > What in his record suggests that he would be a good PM? > > Was his time as a very senior Cabinet Minister, for instance, marked by any particular successes or achievements? > > Why do people think that he has any of the qualities needed to be a good Prime Minister of the nation? > > Or is his only real claim to the post the fact that he wants it and has wanted it for a very long time?
You would be better off asking those questions of Boris supporters.
I was merely mocking one of the most pretentious and unworldy comments I've seen on PB.
Accusing Boris of having an upper second mind and being an unmemorable Oxford Union President is not going to damage his prospects.
> @HYUFD said: > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said: > > > > > @HYUFD said: > > > > > > @AlastairMeeks said: > > > > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none. > > > > > > > > > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country? > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn. > > > > > > > > > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited > > > > > > > > Correction > > > > > > > > We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them. > > > > > > The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50. > > > > > > Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50 > > > > The ERG are the prime culprits for the impasse. Had they voted for the deal on the first occassion we would be out now. > > > > Remainers are entitled to stop brexit, the ERG decided to join them and prevent brexit > > No, Remainers are not entitled to ignore the Brexit vote
> @HYUFD said: > As Trump, Scott Morrison, Salvini, Bolsonaro etc showed the way for the right to win at the moment is to listen to its own voters not advice from left liberals like Harris. > > Across the West the professional graduate class may be moving left liberal but the right is winning by winning skilled working class voters from the left
As any fule kno, assuming you have your 'own' voters is the path to ruin.
> @HYUFD said: > > @Cicero said: > > > @rcs1000 said: > > > > @Dadge said: > > > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election. > > > > > > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending. > > > > > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it. > > > > > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers. > > > > > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed. > > > > > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass. > > > > > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers. > > > > The problem is that BoJo is NBG... > > > > The closer people are to him the more they oppose him for leader, not just Gove but more or less anyone who spends non trivial amounts of time with him. He may have written a better book than JRM, but that is a pretty low bar... He is an upper second mind marred by laziness, complacency and disorganization. As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable, as Mayor of London he rode on the coat tails of others, such as Tessa Jowell. His judgement is poor and his relationship with truth... flexible. In the end he has the same slightly sleazy atmosphere around him as Jeffrey Archer did and, given the Guppy scandal and others, he has been lucky to escape the same fate. > > Blair had an upper second as did Attlee as did Thatcher, Brown had a first as did Portillo. > > Boris has charisma and can win back voters from the Brexit Party, both are vital for the Tories to win
There was no upper second at Oxford in the days of Attlee , Thatcher and Blair.
Comments
How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
> > @Peter_the_Punter said:
>
> > > @rcs1000 said:
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> > > > @Dadge said:
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> > > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending.
>
> > >
>
> > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it.
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> > >
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> > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers.
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> > >
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> > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed.
>
> > >
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> > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass.
>
> > >
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> > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers.
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> >
>
> > Are you also amending your previous prediction that leaving the EU would change the UK into something like 'Singapore on speed' ?
>
>
>
> I never made such a claim.
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>
>
> In fact, I poopooed the idea that the UK economy (utterly dependent on consumption) and the Singaporean one (high levels of household saving) could even be meaningfully compared.
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>
>
> My argument for leaving the EU was that it would improve governance by bringing decisions back closer the people and to their elected representatives.
>
> After several years of "improved governance" is it reasonable to consider that actually governance is substantially worse, veering between incompetence, incoherence and ineffectiveness?
I would argue that the system is working just fine. Despite the error of calling a referendum on an issue that was 50/50, our Parliament are unable to enact such a decision due to its inablity for a group to coalesce around a solution. It is working in affect as the Super majority.
> If the LibDem recovery endures 2020 could be good for Siobhan Benita, who seemed a promising candidate when she first emerged as an Indy backed by that civil service guy.
I think she's a very impressive candidate.
Sadiq is going to be tough to beat though.
"There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs."
Welcome to the world of the Old Gits. I'll send your membership card out immediately.
> So the insular xenophobes are on 18%.. not surprising really.. the sensible vote in the Euros is to vote LD
I could have written that myself! Politics makes strange bedfellows
It's good to see Corbyn's bifurcation strategy backfiring
> > @rottenborough said:
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> > https://twitter.com/ForTheRecord_DC/status/1129773652113854465
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> >
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> > Where do I start?
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> >
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> >
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> Shouldn't it have been called, peter kay's mum needs a bungalow tour, I mean David Cameron's I have a massive mortgage on a holiday house in Cornwall to pay for?
>
> More like "Publisher can't wait any longer to start seeing a return on their $1m advance" book tour.
I would have thought it was the minimise loses tour - there is no way that book is going to recover it's advance...
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1130195252537520128?s=21
> Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
>
> Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
>
> How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
>
> It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
The intellectual rigour of the 52% has been a shock to many of us.
> Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
>
> Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
>
> How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
>
> It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
> @Luckyguy1983 said:
> > @NickPalmer said:
>
> > > @solarflare said:
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> > > Interesting ChUK write-up Mauve, thanks for that
>
> >
>
> > +1. More reports like that from different events would be interesting. Has anyone hgere been to one of Farage's revivalist gatherings?
>
> --------
>
> From the clips, the Farage events seem to be a presumably deliberately hokey and low rent version of the Nuremberg rallies. The British like to keep their fascism low key.
>
> The FURY of remainers at Nigel being good at politics. 'You know who else made emotive speeches?' 'You know who else used to have cheering crowds at their rallies?' It's brilliant.
==================
I accept Farage is good at politics. Fascists have also been good at politics, as has clearly been demonstrated in the past. The question is whether they are good at politics in the same way.
The Brexit Party rallies have none of the bombastic symbolism of the Nuremberg rallies, nor the scale, the length, nor the production values of the Nuremberg rallies, although those presumably started smaller and less well choreographed. The political function of both are similar: to position the Party as the only true representative of the nation and its values l,and to focus on the leader. The content of the speeches appears to be similar with their emphasis on betrayal and how the leader will overcome those malign forces.
Perhaps the most surprising consequence is just how hostile those Leavers who purport to love Britain have become to all the civic institutions of Britain. They'd dismantle each and every last one, including setting northern Ireland and Scotland adrift if they had to, so long as Brexit was secured.
> > @Peter_the_Punter said:
>
> > > @rcs1000 said:
>
> > > > @Dadge said:
>
> > > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending.
>
> > >
>
> > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it.
>
> > >
>
> > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers.
>
> > >
>
> > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed.
>
> > >
>
> > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass.
>
> > >
>
> > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers.
>
> >
>
> > Are you also amending your previous prediction that leaving the EU would change the UK into something like 'Singapore on speed' ?
>
>
>
> I never made such a claim.
>
>
>
> In fact, I poopooed the idea that the UK economy (utterly dependent on consumption) and the Singaporean one (high levels of household saving) could even be meaningfully compared.
>
>
>
> My argument for leaving the EU was that it would improve governance by bringing decisions back closer the people and to their elected representatives.
>
> After several years of "improved governance" is it reasonable to consider that actually governance is substantially worse, veering between incompetence, incoherence and ineffectiveness?
I expect Robert would say 'wrong sort of Brexit',in much the same way that apologists for communism explain its failure in practice as 'the wrong sort'.
> Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
>
> Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
>
> How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
>
> It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
Well I'm significantly better off financially.
And our political and financial establishment have exposed themselves as the bunch of posturing incompetents and self-serving liars they are - this includes both Remain and Leave supporters among them.
Would you prefer that we didn't know that ?
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
> >
> > Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
> >
> > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
> >
> > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
>
> We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
Correction
We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them.
> It’s going to be a role reversal when a new PM comes in .
>
>
>
> The ERG will be fawning all over the no dealer whilst a group of anti no deal Tories start causing trouble .
>
>
>
> I think we’re likely to see some defections to the Lib Dems . I don’t see any more moving to Change UK.
>
> It’s like watching the opposite of one of those romantic dramas on TV - when you spend several series wondering whether the leads will ever get together until they finally do, to everyone’s relief.
>
> Here we’re watching and waiting for the Tories finally to split. I wish they’d get on with it. It’s becoming tedious now.
I think the series of rather ineffective defections has weakened the impact. Say another Tory or Labour backbencher did join CUK or The Brexit Party or whoever. We'd be mildly interested on PB, but 48 hours later we'd have forgotten. Obviously a block of 20 or 30 switching would be another matter.
In England and Wales we have 30% or so of the population hard core for constitutional change. It is unlikely they will change their minds any time soon irrespective of the arguments or the impact on the economy. The rest have waited for reason to prevail and as in Scotland are now moving to the parties that just oppose this group.
There is no resolution now. The revokers will not give up and neither will the no deal Brexiters without total victory. Neither have the numbers yet to impose their will fully.
Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece.
Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association?
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
>
> > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
>
> >
>
> > Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
>
> >
>
> > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
>
> >
>
> > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
>
>
>
> We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
>
> On the contrary, plenty of consequences of Brexit can already be known.
>
> Perhaps the most surprising consequence is just how hostile those Leavers who purport to love Britain have become to all the civic institutions of Britain. They'd dismantle each and every last one, including setting northern Ireland and Scotland adrift if they had to, so long as Brexit was secured.
Even in Scotland the Brexit Party is polling second ahead of the European elections and in NI the DUP still remains in charge. What is certain is that if Remainers keep blocking the implementation of the Leave vote the Brexit Party will continue to surge
> “BIG MONEY” as Max Bygraves used to say 🤣
>
> https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1130195252537520128
Given that the election is on Thursday this week, exactly what can the Electoral Commission do in the intervening period, apart perhaps from SUBSEQUENTLY disqualifying Brexit Party MEP's. Can an individual member state do that?
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
> > >
> > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
> > >
> > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
> > >
> > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
> >
> > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
>
> Correction
>
> We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them.
The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50.
Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50
> Mr. Punter, there are hundreds of nations that are not in the EU. I'm unpersuaded that respecting a vote of the public and the Commons decision to support it is comparable to a system that tends to lead to economic collapse with a side dish of genocide.
No, that's quite right, Morris, but that wasn't my point.
I'm alluding to the way in which advocates of bad political ideas generally explain away their failure by suggesting the idea wasn't implemented 'properly'.
So, 'wrong sort of Communism', 'wrong sort of Brexit', and so on.
> https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1130377676244627456?s=20
'People must feel safe on our streets' from the likes of Boris Johnson.
> https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1130377676244627456?s=20
I suppose Bojo's got his facts right?
Just asking!
> FTPT
>
> Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece.
>
> Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association?
>
> Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them.
For me it's very simple. If we're going to treat Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc. a bit like pubs - the landlord decides who is and who isn't welcome - then the authorities should leave them to it. So if someone says something nasty on Twitter - that could be deemed as a hate crime, for example - it should be left to the proprietor to decide what they allow on their platform.
The police should not be used to police the internet.
Whether leaving or not is a good idea is the debate that was (exceedingly poorly) had during the campaigns.
Gallup/Telegraph 1981-12-14
Con: 23
Lab: 23.5
Alliance: 50.5
That is, however, the only poll I can find since WW2 where this has happened before
125,035 to Change UK’s... 56
https://twitter.com/wireduk/status/1130171372448227328?s=21
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
>
> > FTPT
>
> >
>
> > Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece.
>
> >
>
> > Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association?
>
> >
>
> > Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them.
>
>
>
> For me it's very simple. If we're going to treat Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc. a bit like pubs - the landlord decides who is and who isn't welcome - then the authorities should leave them to it. So if someone says something nasty on Twitter - that could be deemed as a hate crime, for example - it should be left to the proprietor to decide what they allow on their platform.
>
>
>
> The police should not be used to police the internet.
>
> There's a place for both. We would not leave it to the pub landlord to break up a terrorist cell. The question is where we draw the line.
During the 2011 riots some idiots actually organised their actions on the internet. Stupid because it allowed the authorities to literally read the riot act to them.
So where crimes get committed in the real world - like terrorism - then what's written on the internet is very much in play as evidence, and I'd expect the platforms to be helpful in providing the evidence.
But as to what's written on the internet being treated as criminal in and of itself. No.
> > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > FTPT
> >
> > Benjamin has had his livelihood taken away from him, as YouTube have decided to demonetise his channels despite not breaking any rules. I find that extremely disturbing, as from the little bit of the content of his I have seen it is just a cross between PC-gone mad, free speech absolutist and amateur historian stuff about ancient Greece.
> >
> > Surely as a classic Liberal he would be delighted that a private company made an informed decision over it's choice of free association?
> >
> > Well quite. It's amazing how snowflakey the alt-right gets when free markets work against them.
>
> For me it's very simple. If we're going to treat Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc. a bit like pubs - the landlord decides who is and who isn't welcome - then the authorities should leave them to it. So if someone says something nasty on Twitter - that could be deemed as a hate crime, for example - it should be left to the proprietor to decide what they allow on their platform.
>
> The police should not be used to police the internet.
For Facebook, YouTube and Twitter, if they police content, then it shifts the argument in favour of saying they are publishers and so are subject to regulation, as opposed to mere tech platforms, where they shouldn't be regulated.
Now, if one is being cynical, one might argue that Facebook's and Google's sudden conversion to favouring regulation is driven by a desire to erect barriers of entry to new entrants.
> Mr. Punter, we don't know, having not even passed a withdrawal agreement.
>
> Whether leaving or not is a good idea is the debate that was (exceedingly poorly) had during the campaigns.
There are more different ideas about what 'leaving' means than there are about the meaning of 'communism'.
But we'll see what May's brave new bold entirely original offer is. And then try and guess how badly it'll fail.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
> > > >
> > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
> > > >
> > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
> > > >
> > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
> > >
> > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
> >
> > Correction
> >
> > We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them.
>
> The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50.
>
> Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50
The ERG are the prime culprits for the impasse. Had they voted for the deal on the first occassion we would be out now.
Remainers are entitled to stop brexit, the ERG decided to join them and prevent brexit
> https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1130377676244627456?s=20
He really is becoming the hard man of populist British politics. Our very own Erdogan What next? Hanging and flogging? He is certainly Churchillian, if only in that he is taking us back to the 1950s. Warm beer anyone?
> > @Morris_Dancer said:
> > Mr. Punter, we don't know, having not even passed a withdrawal agreement.
> >
> > Whether leaving or not is a good idea is the debate that was (exceedingly poorly) had during the campaigns.
>
> There are more different ideas about what 'leaving' means than there are about the meaning of 'communism'.
Edit: Catch you later - dog starts school this morning. Meanwhile it occurs to me that communism has the advantage of a written Manifesto, written in 1848 and subject to much revisionism but at least it was a document with the semblance of a plan. Don't recall any Leaver Manifesto. Has Nigel written one for his new Party yet?
C ya.
> https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1130378966441844736?s=20
I heard that interview and I don't think TND is reporting it fairly. What I think was in Allen's mind was a larger defection from either Labour and/or Tory that changed the nature and name of their new party. I was surprised how cold she was towards the LibDems given the longstanding rumours about her and the nature of her seat.
> > @HYUFD said:
> > https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1130377676244627456?s=20
>
> He really is becoming the hard man of populist British politics. Our very own Erdogan What next? Hanging and flogging? He is certainly Churchillian, if only in that he is taking us back to the 1950s. Warm beer anyone?
Has anyone ever drunk warm beer ?
It seems a rather stupid thing to say.
> https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1130366773088399360?s=21
On the money.
<i>"It increasingly feels to me as if something is afoot akin to the massed waking-up to the state of the country that happened in 1997, only this time there is no universally popular political force that can mop up all the anxiety, as Tony Blair’s Labour party did. Instead, middle-class angst adds to the inescapable sense that just about everything in Britain is riven with unfixable cracks.
There is a rising Tory fantasy about the party’s immediate post-May future, which seems to be based around victory in a general election, a new leader going back to Brussels full of swagger – and, if need be, Britain stoically going it alone. If that happens, the revolutionary, Brexit-or-nothing school of modern Conservatism will reach peak arrogance, thinking the ghost of the blessed Margaret Thatcher is cheering everything on, and that its moment of destiny has arrived. The truth is the exact opposite: whatever its delusions, hyper-Toryism – and, by extension, the Conservative party itself – is sliding into a elemental crisis from which it may never recover."
I spend too much time on Twitter. Conspiracy theories are contagious.
> > @Mexicanpete said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1130377676244627456?s=20
> >
> > He really is becoming the hard man of populist British politics. Our very own Erdogan What next? Hanging and flogging? He is certainly Churchillian, if only in that he is taking us back to the 1950s. Warm beer anyone?
>
> Has anyone ever drunk warm beer ?
>
> It seems a rather stupid thing to say.
Now if you want to make cultural references to the 1950s then how about:
Trilby hats and head scarves, gasometers and coal fires, morris minors and ford poplars, Billy Wright and Peter May.
There's many others which could be used.
But warm beer isn't one of them.
> > @Dadge said:
> > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election.
> >
> > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending.
>
> If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it.
>
> The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers.
>
> I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed.
>
> We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass.
>
> A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers.
The problem is that BoJo is NBG...
The closer people are to him the more they oppose him for leader, not just Gove but more or less anyone who spends non trivial amounts of time with him. He may have written a better book than JRM, but that is a pretty low bar... He is an upper second mind marred by laziness, complacency and disorganization. As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable, as Mayor of London he rode on the coat tails of others, such as Tessa Jowell. His judgement is poor and his relationship with truth... flexible. In the end he has the same slightly sleazy atmosphere around him as Jeffrey Archer did and, given the Guppy scandal and others, he has been lucky to escape the same fate.
> As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable
Well that settles it Boris is clearly not suitable for PM.
LOL
What in his record suggests that he would be a good PM?
Was his time as a very senior Cabinet Minister, for instance, marked by any particular successes or achievements?
Why do people think that he has any of the qualities needed to be a good Prime Minister of the nation?
Or is his only real claim to the post the fact that he wants it and has wanted it for a very long time?
> > @rcs1000 said:
> > > @Dadge said:
> > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election.
> > >
> > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending.
> >
> > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it.
> >
> > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers.
> >
> > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed.
> >
> > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass.
> >
> > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers.
>
> The problem is that BoJo is NBG...
>
> The closer people are to him the more they oppose him for leader, not just Gove but more or less anyone who spends non trivial amounts of time with him. He may have written a better book than JRM, but that is a pretty low bar... He is an upper second mind marred by laziness, complacency and disorganization. As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable, as Mayor of London he rode on the coat tails of others, such as Tessa Jowell. His judgement is poor and his relationship with truth... flexible. In the end he has the same slightly sleazy atmosphere around him as Jeffrey Archer did and, given the Guppy scandal and others, he has been lucky to escape the same fate.
Blair had an upper second as did Attlee as did Thatcher, Brown had a first as did Portillo.
Boris has charisma and can win back voters from the Brexit Party, both are vital for the Tories to win
> > @HYUFD said:
> > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
> > > > >
> > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
> > > >
> > > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
> > >
> > > Correction
> > >
> > > We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them.
> >
> > The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50.
> >
> > Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50
>
> The ERG are the prime culprits for the impasse. Had they voted for the deal on the first occassion we would be out now.
>
> Remainers are entitled to stop brexit, the ERG decided to join them and prevent brexit
No, Remainers are not entitled to ignore the Brexit vote
> > @williamglenn said:
> > https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1130366773088399360?s=21
>
> On the money.
>
> <i>"It increasingly feels to me as if something is afoot akin to the massed waking-up to the state of the country that happened in 1997, only this time there is no universally popular political force that can mop up all the anxiety, as Tony Blair’s Labour party did. Instead, middle-class angst adds to the inescapable sense that just about everything in Britain is riven with unfixable cracks.
>
> There is a rising Tory fantasy about the party’s immediate post-May future, which seems to be based around victory in a general election, a new leader going back to Brussels full of swagger – and, if need be, Britain stoically going it alone. If that happens, the revolutionary, Brexit-or-nothing school of modern Conservatism will reach peak arrogance, thinking the ghost of the blessed Margaret Thatcher is cheering everything on, and that its moment of destiny has arrived. The truth is the exact opposite: whatever its delusions, hyper-Toryism – and, by extension, the Conservative party itself – is sliding into a elemental crisis from which it may never recover."
>
As Trump, Scott Morrison, Salvini, Bolsonaro etc showed the way for the right to win at the moment is to listen to its own voters not advice from left liberals like Harris.
Across the West the professional graduate class may be moving left liberal but the right is winning by winning skilled working class voters from the left
> > @Cicero said:
>
> > As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable
>
>
>
> Well that settles it Boris is clearly not suitable for PM.
>
>
>
> LOL
>
>
> What in his record suggests that he would be a good PM?
>
> Was his time as a very senior Cabinet Minister, for instance, marked by any particular successes or achievements?
>
> Why do people think that he has any of the qualities needed to be a good Prime Minister of the nation?
>
> Or is his only real claim to the post the fact that he wants it and has wanted it for a very long time?
You would be better off asking those questions of Boris supporters.
I was merely mocking one of the most pretentious and unworldy comments I've seen on PB.
Accusing Boris of having an upper second mind and being an unmemorable Oxford Union President is not going to damage his prospects.
> > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > @Big_G_NorthWales said:
> > > > > @HYUFD said:
> > > > > > @AlastairMeeks said:
> > > > > > Dr. Foxy, not yet. But then, not even the first phase has finished yet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are there any early green shoots? I see none.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How long do we have to wait before realising that Brexit has worsened the governance of the country?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is the question Leavers struggle with: in what way has the country got better since the decision to leave the EU? There seems to be near-universal agreement that the country is going to the dogs. There is an obvious conclusion to be drawn.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are still in the EU because of diehard Remainers so nobody knows the consequences of Brexit as we have not yet Brexited
> > > >
> > > > Correction
> > > >
> > > > We are still in the EU due to the idiotic ERG members of the conservative party who are clueless and lack any intelligence or thought. Indeed not thinking seems to be the dna of the lot of them.
> > >
> > > The ERG voted against the WA but they voted for No Deal in the indicative votes and against extension of Article 50.
> > >
> > > Only diehard Remainers voted against the WA, against No Deal in the indicative votes and for extension of Article 50
> >
> > The ERG are the prime culprits for the impasse. Had they voted for the deal on the first occassion we would be out now.
> >
> > Remainers are entitled to stop brexit, the ERG decided to join them and prevent brexit
>
> No, Remainers are not entitled to ignore the Brexit vote
Of course they are
> As Trump, Scott Morrison, Salvini, Bolsonaro etc showed the way for the right to win at the moment is to listen to its own voters not advice from left liberals like Harris.
>
> Across the West the professional graduate class may be moving left liberal but the right is winning by winning skilled working class voters from the left
As any fule kno, assuming you have your 'own' voters is the path to ruin.
> > @Cicero said:
> > > @rcs1000 said:
> > > > @Dadge said:
> > > > But there's the rub. If the leadership pivots to No Deal, it'll lose the support of Grieve, Rudd etc. and Corbyn will win a vote of No Confidence. 2019 election.
> > > >
> > > > This drama has some way to run yet. Let's just hope it doesn't have a Game of Thrones style ending.
> > >
> > > If there was an easy way out, the Conservative Parliamentary Party would take it.
> > >
> > > The reality is that every way is fraught with dangers.
> > >
> > > I am coming round to the view that the best outcome for both the Conservative Party and the country would be for Boris Johnson to take over as Prime Minister, to go to Brussels, and return declaring that the Withdrawal Agreement was dead, and the EU had cravenly accepted his terms, and a new Exit Agreement had been agreed.
> > >
> > > We would all cheer as Boris declared victory, the ERG would fall into line, and the EA would pass.
> > >
> > > A few small voices in the wilderness would point out that the only change was the substituting of the word "exit" for "withdrawal" throughout the document. But they would be ignored as naysayers.
> >
> > The problem is that BoJo is NBG...
> >
> > The closer people are to him the more they oppose him for leader, not just Gove but more or less anyone who spends non trivial amounts of time with him. He may have written a better book than JRM, but that is a pretty low bar... He is an upper second mind marred by laziness, complacency and disorganization. As Union President at Oxford, his term was unmemorable, as Mayor of London he rode on the coat tails of others, such as Tessa Jowell. His judgement is poor and his relationship with truth... flexible. In the end he has the same slightly sleazy atmosphere around him as Jeffrey Archer did and, given the Guppy scandal and others, he has been lucky to escape the same fate.
>
> Blair had an upper second as did Attlee as did Thatcher, Brown had a first as did Portillo.
>
> Boris has charisma and can win back voters from the Brexit Party, both are vital for the Tories to win
There was no upper second at Oxford in the days of Attlee , Thatcher and Blair.