> @isam said: > She knew damn well what she was saying. It was her announcement that she was a Prime Minister for provincials. > > Only if you want to take it that way. > > Leavers have never seen her as a hardline leaver
And that is the point. At every stage she has sought to curry favour with the Leave extremists, validating their world view rather than challenging it. No wonder they are baffled as to why they should compromise. The government hasn’t prepared them for the idea at all.
How does that work*? A cabinet minister out campaigning with an MP who hates government policy so much he’s on strike? Presumably he’s nominally campaigning for Tory candidates? Strikes me as another example of where we’re at with collective responsibility and/or the sheer desperation of this lot.
(* I mean the politics of it, not getting a, er, rager for the Chief Sec.)
> @isam said: > > @thecommissioner said: > > > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly. > > > > > > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy. > > > > Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing. > > Most people expected a degree of honour in defeat from people who’d had it their way for 20 odd years. It’s not obvious that you have to wine and dine the people you’ve just beat to get them to accept they lost.
It should be obvious why you need to build a consensus.
In 2016 there were plenty of Remainers who while disappointed were willing to let Leave take the tiller for the while. Leavers then took the opportunity to enter into a spiral of paranoia and purity tests. At which point Remainers mentally headed for the life rafts. They’re not coming back now: they think you’re cuckoo.
> @AlastairMeeks said: > > The story goes that a woman met both Gladstone and Disraeli at the same party. “How was it?” her friend asked. > > “Well first I met Mr Gladstone and after talking with him for fifteen minutes I was convinced that he was the cleverest man in England. And then I met Mr Disraeli and after talking with him for fifteen minutes I was convinced that I was the cleverest woman in England.”
The woman is usually identified as Jennie Jerome, wife of Randolph Churchill and mother of Winston (aka the inventor of the EU!)
> @AlastairMeeks said: > > @isam said: > > > @thecommissioner said: > > > > > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly. > > > > > > > > > > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy. > > > > > > > > Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing. > > > > Most people expected a degree of honour in defeat from people who’d had it their way for 20 odd years. It’s not obvious that you have to wine and dine the people you’ve just beat to get them to accept they lost. > > It should be obvious why you need to build a consensus. > > In 2016 there were plenty of Remainers who while disappointed were willing to let Leave take the tiller for the while. Leavers then took the opportunity to enter into a spiral of paranoia and purity tests. At which point Remainers mentally headed for the life rafts. They’re not coming back now: they think you’re cuckoo.
For most Remainers the only acceptable Brexit was one which stayed in the single market and Customs Union but for most Leavers that is not Brexit at all
It should be obvious why you need to build a consensus.
In 2016 there were plenty of Remainers who while disappointed were willing to let Leave take the tiller for the while. Leavers then took the opportunity to enter into a spiral of paranoia and purity tests. At which point Remainers mentally headed for the life rafts. They’re not coming back now: they think you’re cuckoo.
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
> The weirdest part of this Gov'ts messaging/strategy is the way they always leak something or other to the press, or make a unilateral announcement in an attempt to bounce the other side into agreement.
>
>
>
> They've done this with the EU, the DUP, Labour and occasionally their own backbenchers.
>
>
>
> It's worked with precisely none of them.
>
> Has she tried empathy? Sitting down, talking to them and listening to them?
>
> This is how humans work.
The story goes that a woman met both Gladstone and Disraeli at the same party. “How was it?” her friend asked.
“Well first I met Mr Gladstone and after talking with him for fifteen minutes I was convinced that he was the cleverest man in England. And then I met Mr Disraeli and after talking with him for fifteen minutes I was convinced that I was the cleverest woman in England.”
Whilst YouGov are an outlier when it comes to Labours numbers I don't think that really merits being upset at them... some people get a bit carried away though.
The weirdest part of this Gov'ts messaging/strategy is the way they always leak something or other to the press, or make a unilateral announcement in an attempt to bounce the other side into agreement.
They've done this with the EU, the DUP, Labour and occasionally their own backbenchers.
It's worked with precisely none of them.
Has she tried empathy? Sitting down, talking to them and listening to them?
This is how humans work.
It’s a meeting of oil and water. The DUP, the ERG seem wholly emotion based and impervious to logic, reason or active thought. May is perhaps less emotional. Oddly, that’s how a potential arrangement had been reached with the EU. They are reason-based.
Brexit means Ulster-style politics seems to be our future. That doesn’t seem a very happy future.
But, a skilled politician would understand that and the need for flexing their style.
> @isam said: > > @isam said: > > > > @thecommissioner said: > > > > > > > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing. > > > > > > Most people expected a degree of honour in defeat from people who’d had it their way for 20 odd years. It’s not obvious that you have to wine and dine the people you’ve just beat to get them to accept they lost. > > > > It should be obvious why you need to build a consensus. > > > > In 2016 there were plenty of Remainers who while disappointed were willing to let Leave take the tiller for the while. Leavers then took the opportunity to enter into a spiral of paranoia and purity tests. At which point Remainers mentally headed for the life rafts. They’re not coming back now: they think you’re cuckoo. > > You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers. > > The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
The government has been consumed by Brexit. Leavers might complain about many things but the idea that Brexit has been insufficiently considered is not one of them. It has been considered in detail and on close examination it turns out that Leavers were clueless. Next steps have to be determined accordingly.
There were probably a lot of people who voted in the referendum that don’t usually vote in party political elections. It could be that the rump of Labour and Conservative voters should be considered neutral, Brexit wise
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @IanB2 said: > > > > Certainly right to exclude the Tories and Labour, but you are forgetting that the bulk of the remaining 7% are the nationalists in Scotland and Wales, who are very clearly remain. > > --- > > The leadership of the parties are Remain. > > I don't think it follows that the voters are. > > After all, it was not so long ago that the Nationalists (and Sinn Fein) were strongly eurosceptic. >
I can't speak for Wales, but Scottish "nationalists" are as pro EU as any other party. That might not have been true 40 years ago, but it is today.
The government has been consumed by Brexit. Leavers might complain about many things but the idea that Brexit has been insufficiently considered is not one of them. It has been considered in detail and on close examination it turns out that Leavers were clueless. Next steps have to be determined accordingly.
Remainers were indulged for 20 odd years when it turns out they were a minority all along. At least they got rich out of it
> @TheJezziah said: > Magic Grandpa's followers are upset: > > > > https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1129280676707090433 > > > > Whilst YouGov are an outlier when it comes to Labours numbers I don't think that really merits being upset at them... some people get a bit carried away though.
Actually I'll take those numbers. We are used to some of our people voting LD tactically when they think it appropriate, and mostly coming back at GEs when we're the main alternative to the Tories. CUK, however, was a specific challenge to the current party and would have been a more existential threat if they'd taken off.
> Whilst YouGov are an outlier when it comes to Labours numbers I don't think that really merits being upset at them... some people get a bit carried away though.
Actually I'll take those numbers. We are used to some of our people voting LD tactically when they think it appropriate, and mostly coming back at GEs when we're the main alternative to the Tories. CUK, however, was a specific challenge to the current party and would have been a more existential threat if they'd taken off.
Not saying they are terrible but I'd prefer it to be however the splits would work out on polls done by almost any other company as we would be keeping/receiving more votes.
I don't particularly mind the Lib Dems whilst I really don't like CUK so if voters are too switch I would prefer that though Greens would be my non Labour preference.
> Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week.
For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000.
What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
> @Recidivist said: > > @justin124 said: > > > > > > Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week. > > > > For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000. > > What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
All pollsters are consistently out if line with each other
The ERG on the other hand has never had a coherent position or even a unanimous one because it never needed one.
The Bittereinders like Steve "Brexit Hardman" Baker and Mark "Family Guy" Francois have been completely coherent. They want no deal and will do whatever maximises the chances of that happening.
Given the Brexit Party is polling second for next week's Euro elections in Scotland Sturgeon will soon find out Scotland is not as universal a source of diehard Remainers as she thought
> @AlastairMeeks said: > > @thecommissioner said: > > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly. > > > > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy. > > Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing.
Which Remainers are you referring to ?
Some Remainers have been willing to engage and perhaps other Remainers might have done so.
But there are other Remainers who have eagerly pedaled fake news and falsehoods because of their hatred for Brexit - or perhaps their hatred for the people who voted for Brexit.
> @Casino_Royale said: > The weirdest part of this Gov'ts messaging/strategy is the way they always leak something or other to the press, or make a unilateral announcement in an attempt to bounce the other side into agreement. > > > > They've done this with the EU, the DUP, Labour and occasionally their own backbenchers. > > > > It's worked with precisely none of them. > > Has she tried empathy? Sitting down, talking to them and listening to them? > > This is how humans work.
I think that is unfair. Labour and the ERG have shown a degree of inflexibility albeit for very different reasons which any leader would have been unable to counter. The fact is the biggest problem has always been the task rather than the personalities. Too many have failed to accept that a close result requires compromise. Now positions are so polarised that it is destroying the political system. Very sad to watch.
> @ah009 said: > > I can't speak for Wales, but Scottish "nationalists" are as pro EU as any other party. That might not have been true 40 years ago, but it is today.
----
I take your word for it.
However, I did hear an interesting interview before the last general election from Scottish fisherman based in the marginal constituency of NE Fife.
They were strongly eurosceptic, but voting for the SNP.
When the contradiction was pointed out to them, they said something along the lines "Nicola would sort the EU out. It is Westminster that allowed the EU to shaft Scotland".
Perhaps Nicola will sort it out, but I wouldn't describe that attitude as "pro-EU".
> @TheScreamingEagles said: > Mrs May’s other major mistake was right at the start. > > When she appointed the disgraced national security risk Liam Fox, the lazy liar David Davis, and Boris Johnson to key Brexit roles but fired Gove and Osborne because they had clashed with her.
Given that the USA has never had a problem in attracting immigrants from this group, the policy is really just a way of preventing the immigration of families with poor or no English
> @Recidivist said: > > @justin124 said: > > > > > > Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week. > > > > For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000. > > What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
Yep, increased sample size reduces the variance of the predictions but not any bias.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > However, I did hear an interesting interview before the last general election from Scottish fisherman based in the marginal constituency of NE Fife. > > They were strongly eurosceptic, but voting for the SNP. > > When the contradiction was pointed out to them, they said something along the lines "Nicola would sort the EU out. It is Westminster that allowed the EU to shaft Scotland". > > Perhaps Nicola will sort it out, but I wouldn't describe that attitude as "pro-EU". ----------- In the case of fishing, it's true that almost all of what gets blamed on the CFP is really a Westminster issue. Being pro-EU isn't incompatible with wanting national interests looked after.
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
> @Dura_Ace said: > The ERG on the other hand has never had a coherent position or even a unanimous one because it never needed one. > > The Bittereinders like Steve "Brexit Hardman" Baker and Mark "Family Guy" Francois have been completely coherent. They want no deal and will do whatever maximises the chances of that happening.
No deal is not a coherent position, that's the trouble. No deal is just a transition state on the road to somewhere else, because we will still be parked next to Europe and we still will have to deal and trade with it and various other foreign entities. Where is that "somewhere else" and how do we get from leaving with no deal to those sunlit uplands? That is where there is no consensus and often not much evidence they've even considered the matter.
Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise.
Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
Brexit is an extreme project. Brexiters are extremists. Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
> I can't speak for Wales, but Scottish "nationalists" are as pro EU as any other party. That might not have been true 40 years ago, but it is today.
----
I take your word for it.
However, I did hear an interesting interview before the last general election from Scottish fisherman based in the marginal constituency of NE Fife.
They were strongly eurosceptic, but voting for the SNP.
When the contradiction was pointed out to them, they said something along the lines "Nicola would sort the EU out. It is Westminster that allowed the EU to shaft Scotland".
Perhaps Nicola will sort it out, but I wouldn't describe that attitude as "pro-EU".
Except it is a pro-EU attitude. It presupposes the possibility that the EU could be made to work in their interests.
The widths of those bars should be proportional to the number of voters in each group. If the labour+leave group is quite small then effect of 47% voting Brexit party is less than visually portrayed.
> @williamglenn said: > > In the case of fishing, it's true that almost all of what gets blamed on the CFP is really a Westminster issue. Being pro-EU isn't incompatible with wanting national interests looked after.
---
I know little about fishing rights, so I would be interested in hearing why this is a Westminster issue, rather than an EU one.
> @Gardenwalker said: > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise. > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism. > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe. > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU). > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing. > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”. > > Brexit is an extreme project. > Brexiters are extremists. > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
The EU believes in EverCloserUnion. The EU is an extreme project. Remainers are extremists. The EU - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
> @Gardenwalker said: > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise. > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism. > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe. > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU). > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing. > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”. > > Brexit is an extreme project. > Brexiters are extremists. > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides.
> @Recidivist said: > > @justin124 said: > > > > > > Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week. > > > > For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000. > > What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
If anything, given the problems finding an unbiased sample, a poll with a larger sample size could be worse as the problems in finding the sample could be exaggerated when needing to find 7,000 respondents instead of 1,000.
No deal is not a coherent position, that's the trouble. No deal is just a transition state on the road to somewhere else, because we will still be parked next to Europe and we still will have to deal and trade with it and various other foreign entities. Where is that "somewhere else" and how do we get from leaving with no deal to those sunlit uplands? That is where there is no consensus and often not much evidence they've even considered the matter.
It may not be a coherent position but it is their position and you know what? At least I understand it. Do nothing and continue to do nothing because the default in a do nothing situation is no deal.
Would it do untold damage to the UK? Highly likely. Is this something that trumps their ideology? Highly unlikely for the rump ERG.
The bomb is on countdown mode and the government is trying to work out whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire.
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
> > Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week.
>
>
>
> For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000.
>
> What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
If anything, given the problems finding an unbiased sample, a poll with a larger sample size could be worse as the problems in finding the sample could be exaggerated when needing to find 7,000 respondents instead of 1,000.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > I know little about fishing rights, so I would be interested in hearing why this is a Westminster issue, rather than an EU one. --------
The quota allocation system is decided nationally. The UK allows its quotas to be traded which has resulted in large amounts of it being owned by non-UK entities. Some other countries like Denmark reserve a part of their quotas for local, small-scale fishers and don't allow them to be sold.
> @anothernick said: > > @Gardenwalker said: > > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise. > > > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. > > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism. > > > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe. > > > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU). > > > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing. > > > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”. > > > > Brexit is an extreme project. > > Brexiters are extremists. > > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated. > > Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides.
Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets.
Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party.
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers.
> @TOPPING said: > > I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive. --------- And May called the election precisely to overcome that problem. The fact that voters took her majority away should have led to a total rethink on Brexit strategy in June 2017.
> @another_richard said: > > @anothernick said: > > > @Gardenwalker said: > > > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise. > > > > > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. > > > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism. > > > > > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe. > > > > > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU). > > > > > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing. > > > > > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”. > > > > > > Brexit is an extreme project. > > > Brexiters are extremists. > > > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated. > > > > Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides. > > Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets. > > Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party.
It is interesting that according to Katya Adler within the countries of the EU the EU has never been more popular than it is at the moment. Partly because they can see the shambles in the UK and partly because of the sense of community it engenders.
But what does that tell us about ourselves who have seen the shambles unfolding over several years but still want out? Nothing other than we have a hardcore xenophobic population of about 45% and there's nothing we can do about it
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers.
Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not.
> @isam said: > > Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not. ----- That's not true. The WAB would have needed to be passed by parliament in any case.
> @williamglenn said: > > @TOPPING said: > > > > I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive. > --------- > And May called the election precisely to overcome that problem. The fact that voters took her majority away should have led to a total rethink on Brexit strategy in June 2017.
Brexit was hardly mentioned in the 2017 GE.
What should have led to a rethink by May was her inability to explain policies and Labour's willingness to exploit politically.
> @isam said: > You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers. > > The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say? > > > This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER. > > Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs". > > The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON > > Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
Whilst the polling is interesting and gets all us political obsessive on here frothed up it must be taken with a large pinch of salt. We are after all voting for MEPs who may not even take their seats in a parliament and system we have already voted to leave. On top of that we have party leaders in May and Corbyn who are deeply unpopular with the public at large, and polls are supposed to have representative samples when CHUK and Brexit have only come into being in the last few months.
Therefore it’s almost a free hit for the polling companies - publish as many polls as you can and hope one gets it right .
> @Roger said: > It is interesting that according to Katya Adler within the countries of the EU the EU has never been more popular than it is at the moment. Partly because they can see the shambles in the UK and partly because of the sense of community it engenders. > > > But what does that tell us about ourselves who have seen the shambles unfolding over several years but still want out? Nothing other than we have a hardcore xenophobic population of about 45% and there's nothing we can do about it > >
Yet the surveys show that the UK is one of the most tolerant countries in Europe whereas the country you live in is one of the most bigoted.
SWR announces temporary delay to Class 442 fleet introduction
There could be a few short formations on Monday morning creating some disgruntlement among Surrey commuters. No doubt social media will be all over it, so that will be fun to watch.
> @another_richard said: > > @anothernick said: > > > @Gardenwalker said: > > > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise. > > > > > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. > > > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism. > > > > > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe. > > > > > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU). > > > > > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing. > > > > > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”. > > > > > > Brexit is an extreme project. > > > Brexiters are extremists. > > > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated. > > > > Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides. > > Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets. > > Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party.
The Brexit promised at the referendum was, and is, not deliverable.
> @Roger said: > It is interesting that according to Katya Adler within the countries of the EU the EU has never been more popular than it is at the moment. Partly because they can see the shambles in the UK and partly because of the sense of community it engenders. > > > But what does that tell us about ourselves who have seen the shambles unfolding over several years but still want out? Nothing other than we have a hardcore xenophobic population of about 45% and there's nothing we can do about it > >
Most polls show the UK more tolerant than France and Italy for example where the hardline anti immigration parties of Le Pen and Salvini will likely win the European elections next week according to the latest polls. In Austria the far right are already part of the Government.
Is Norway xenophobic because it is not in the EU and polling shows it has no desire to be? Is Iceland? Is Switzerland?
> @eristdoof said: > > @Nemtynakht said: > > We are after all voting for MEPs who may not even take their seats in a parliament and system we have already voted to leave. > > Do you really believe that Brexit will come before the start of July?
No but who knows? Do you think anyone cares who their MEP is? Most people would not have been able to name their MEPs when we not leaving. Do you think people are going to care more now we are leaving.
After GE 2017 a lot of people who like to analyse opinion polls were praising YouGov to the skies for their innovative and accurate new system. But on the Euro Elections, not so, I hear no talk of Gold Standard. Is it the same system?
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers.
Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not.
Yes I agree with your point there. Had parliament not been asked to agree the deal it would have passed. But it was used for party political purposes by Labour. Was that Grieve's intention? Perhaps. But the fact remains that the Cons had the wherewithal, even with the DUP's position, to get this over the line and it was the Leavers who scuppered it.
> So what was the effect of Grieve’s meaningful vote amendment?
It gave the government a preview of whether they would be able to get a majority to vote for the legislation.
“During the Brexit negotiation process, Grieve made a number of amendments against the Government's plans to leave the EU. The first was to give Parliament a "meaningful vote" over the Brexit agreement – i.e. to force a motion by Parliament to approve the Brexit agreement which would have a binding effect on the government. In December 2017, he tabled an amendment (Amendment 7) to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill requiring any Brexit deal to be enacted by statute, rather than implemented by government order”
> @TOPPING said: > You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers. > > The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say? > > > This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER. > > Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs". > > The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON > > Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now > > I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive. > > So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers. > > Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not. > > Yes I agree with your point there. Had parliament not been asked to agree the deal it would have passed. But it was used for party political purposes by Labour. Was that Grieve's intention? Perhaps. But the fact remains that the Cons had the wherewithal, even with the DUP's position, to get this over the line and it was the Leavers who scuppered it.
It may yet be Labour MPs from Leave seats who get the WA over the line in panic at the rise of the Brexit Party in their areas next week and the Brexit Party gaining the Peterborough by election from Labour
> @anothernick said: > > @another_richard said: > > > @anothernick said: > > > > @Gardenwalker said: > > > > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise. > > > > > > > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. > > > > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism. > > > > > > > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe. > > > > > > > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU). > > > > > > > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing. > > > > > > > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”. > > > > > > > > Brexit is an extreme project. > > > > Brexiters are extremists. > > > > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated. > > > > > > Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides. > > > > Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets. > > > > Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party. > > The Brexit promised at the referendum was, and is, not deliverable.
Promised by whom ?
According to Remainers we would be in permanent recession, facing starvation and have refugee camps at Dover.
But if you're referring to what the Leave side said then perhaps we should have had those people in charge to see if they could put into practice what they predicted.
Instead we've had a government led by Remainers and a Parliament dominated by Remainers.
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers.
Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not.
Yes I agree with your point there. Had parliament not been asked to agree the deal it would have passed. But it was used for party political purposes by Labour. Was that Grieve's intention? Perhaps. But the fact remains that the Cons had the wherewithal, even with the DUP's position, to get this over the line and it was the Leavers who scuppered it.
We were told by the previous PM that the decision would be ours, not politicians. MPs having the power to vote down a deal that a PM had agreed goes against that 100%, and is the reason Farage seems to be doing well. They even had a GE afterwards where they promised to respect the result. I find it hard to see how Remain voters can shrug their shoulders at this really.
"These elections are different. They're under a proportional system."
Caroline Lucas should know better than that. When they tweeted something similar and I raised it with a senior Green, the answer was "oh, that was a new intern, they've been corrected".
The elections are for big-ass multi-member constituencies but they're not proportional. They're just a bit less unproportional than FPTP. Not greatly impressed with the Greens' one MP deliberately lying.
It may yet be Labour MPs from Leave seats who get the WA over the line in panic at the rise of the Brexit Party in their areas next week and the Brexit Party gaining the Peterborough by election from Labour
I just don't see it. @NickPalmer remains the gold standard forecaster on this when he told us many, many moons ago that he doesn't see more than half a dozen Lab MPs voting with the government (and reflect on the implications of that for a sec) and so it has proved.
Leave or Remain I just can't see a large group of Lab MPs voting with May. Because just like you and me, suppose we get disillusioned with the Cons we are hardly likely to vote for Corbyn's Lab. Likewise suppose those Leave voting Lab supporters are pissed off with Lab on this, they are hardly likely to hand victory in their constituencies to the Cons.
> @isam said: > After GE 2017 a lot of people who like to analyse opinion polls were praising YouGov to the skies for their innovative and accurate new system. But on the Euro Elections, not so, I hear no talk of Gold Standard. Is it the same system?
Who was praising Yougov? They just decided to cover all their bases by having one model be bullish on Labour and the other bearish.
> @isam said: > > We were told by the previous PM that the decision would be ours, not politicians. MPs having the power to vote down a deal that a PM had agreed goes against that 100%, and is the reason Farage seems to be doing well. They even had a GE afterwards where they promised to respect the result. I find it hard to see how Remain voters can shrug their shoulders at this really. ------- If May had said right at the beginning that the people would get chance to approve the deal in a referendum, it would have been consistent with your view that it shouldn't be for politicians to make that decision.
> @TOPPING said: > It may yet be Labour MPs from Leave seats who get the WA over the line in panic at the rise of the Brexit Party in their areas next week and the Brexit Party gaining the Peterborough by election from Labour > > I just don't see it. @NickPalmer remains the gold standard forecaster on this when he told us many, many moons ago that he doesn't see more than half a dozen Lab MPs voting with the government (and reflect on the implications of that for a sec) and so it has proved. > > Leave or Remain I just can't see a large group of Lab MPs voting with May. Because just like you and me, suppose we get disillusioned with the Cons we are hardly likely to vote for Corbyn's Lab. Likewise suppose those Leave voting Lab supporters are pissed off with Lab on this, they are hardly likely to hand victory in their constituencies to the Cons.
A number voted UKIP in 2015 then Labour in 2017 and will now vote Brexit Party. In 2015 that enabled a Cameron majority which was lost in 2017.
Nandy etc now wavering it seems given the alternative if the Deal fails again will be revoke or No Deal which likely means revoke given the current Commons and a further Brexit Party surge with Farage even leading the polls by New Year
> We were told by the previous PM that the decision would be ours, not politicians. MPs having the power to vote down a deal that a PM had agreed goes against that 100%, and is the reason Farage seems to be doing well. They even had a GE afterwards where they promised to respect the result. I find it hard to see how Remain voters can shrug their shoulders at this really.
-------
If May had said right at the beginning that the people would get chance to approve the deal in a referendum, it would have been consistent with your view that it shouldn't be for politicians to make that decision.
No. The 2016 referendum was the public telling parliament we wanted to Leave. After that there was, and still is, no option but to Leave, and all MPs were obliged to do was vote through the PMs deal.
I’m guessing your hypothetical referendum has Remain as an option, which undermines the your point.
> @isam said: > > Who is the woman in that video? > > > > > > In your video was Joan Ryan ex Labour. Not actually the worst CUK MP, more middle of the pack... > > > > The worst CUK MP is a competitive contest. > > > > And it was not so long ago that the Guardian & pb.com's Most Gullible were lauding these MPs as Political Giants. > > > > It turns put that they had led such Pampered Lifes in the Labour or Tory political Machines that they were unable to do very simple things. > > At the time of writing, “No, that’d be the European Elections” was a big price
It’s difficult to fight local elections without activists. The Tiggers should have seen the petition for revoke as a potential membership list, committed to revoke, and done their utmost to recruit as many as possible. Instead they have focussed on party structures and nepotism, setting up just like the parties they have left! So much for change.
Galling as it is to praise Farage he really has done a number
Just looked at the BP website. Professional looking - first image is of a black woman in a support video, Farage further down the page. Simple punchy messages - we are the 17.4 million for example.
Look at the the CHUK website - unbelievably a large crowd of white people is their chosen image. A bland message of send the main parties a message is all well and good but without activists how do you turn that into support when LDs, Greens, SNP and PC all have the same message and activists
You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
The truth is that Remain M
This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers.
Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not.
Yes I agree with your point there. Had parliament not been asked to agree the deal it would have passed. But it was used for party political purposes by Labour. Was that Grieve's intention? Perhaps. But the fact remains that the Cons had the wherewithal, even with the DUP's position, to get this over the line and it was the Leavers who scuppered it.
We were told by the previous PM that the decision would be ours, not politicians. MPs having the power to vote down a deal that a PM had agreed goes against that 100%, and is the reason Farage seems to be doing well. They even had a GE afterwards where they promised to respect the result. I find it hard to see how Remain voters can shrug their shoulders at this really.
It comes down to the simple fact of whether MPs believe it is more important to leave whatever the damage or whether they think people should be "saved from themselves". And all this with a party political overlay obscuring the real motives of those not in government.
As a Remain voter, I can see merit in both positions. We voted to leave and we haven't left so something has gone badly wrong, yet at the same time the damage I believe would be caused by "just leaving" is something that no government could contemplate inflicting upon the country.
> @El_Capitano said: > "These elections are different. They're under a proportional system." > > Caroline Lucas should know better than that. When they tweeted something similar and I raised it with a senior Green, the answer was "oh, that was a new intern, they've been corrected". > > The elections are for big-ass multi-member constituencies but they're not proportional. They're just a bit less unproportional than FPTP. Not greatly impressed with the Greens' one MP deliberately lying.
It is sort-of PR, and what Lucas said is fair enough on that point. Whether there are more proportional voting systems is a debate for another day.
Comments
> She knew damn well what she was saying. It was her announcement that she was a Prime Minister for provincials.
>
> Only if you want to take it that way.
>
> Leavers have never seen her as a hardline leaver
And that is the point. At every stage she has sought to curry favour with the Leave extremists, validating their world view rather than challenging it. No wonder they are baffled as to why they should compromise. The government hasn’t prepared them for the idea at all.
> > @Charles said:
>
> > https://twitter.com/JohnnyMercerUK/status/1129082069697609728
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Why’s he taken a photo with “labor” behind his head?
>
>
>
> And why has he got his hands in his pockets?
>
> He's holding a rager down.
How does that work*? A cabinet minister out campaigning with an MP who hates government policy so much he’s on strike? Presumably he’s nominally campaigning for Tory candidates? Strikes me as another example of where we’re at with collective responsibility and/or the sheer desperation of this lot.
(* I mean the politics of it, not getting a, er, rager for the Chief Sec.)
> > @thecommissioner said:
>
> > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly.
>
> >
>
> > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy.
>
>
>
> Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing.
>
> Most people expected a degree of honour in defeat from people who’d had it their way for 20 odd years. It’s not obvious that you have to wine and dine the people you’ve just beat to get them to accept they lost.
It should be obvious why you need to build a consensus.
In 2016 there were plenty of Remainers who while disappointed were willing to let Leave take the tiller for the while. Leavers then took the opportunity to enter into a spiral of paranoia and purity tests. At which point Remainers mentally headed for the life rafts. They’re not coming back now: they think you’re cuckoo.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1129280676707090433
>
> The story goes that a woman met both Gladstone and Disraeli at the same party. “How was it?” her friend asked.
>
> “Well first I met Mr Gladstone and after talking with him for fifteen minutes I was convinced that he was the cleverest man in England. And then I met Mr Disraeli and after talking with him for fifteen minutes I was convinced that I was the cleverest woman in England.”
The woman is usually identified as Jennie Jerome, wife of Randolph Churchill and mother of Winston (aka the inventor of the EU!)
> > @isam said:
> > > @thecommissioner said:
> >
> > > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing.
> >
> > Most people expected a degree of honour in defeat from people who’d had it their way for 20 odd years. It’s not obvious that you have to wine and dine the people you’ve just beat to get them to accept they lost.
>
> It should be obvious why you need to build a consensus.
>
> In 2016 there were plenty of Remainers who while disappointed were willing to let Leave take the tiller for the while. Leavers then took the opportunity to enter into a spiral of paranoia and purity tests. At which point Remainers mentally headed for the life rafts. They’re not coming back now: they think you’re cuckoo.
For most Remainers the only acceptable Brexit was one which stayed in the single market and Customs Union but for most Leavers that is not Brexit at all
The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
> > @isam said:
>
> > > @thecommissioner said:
>
> >
>
> > > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing.
>
> >
>
> > Most people expected a degree of honour in defeat from people who’d had it their way for 20 odd years. It’s not obvious that you have to wine and dine the people you’ve just beat to get them to accept they lost.
>
>
>
> It should be obvious why you need to build a consensus.
>
>
>
> In 2016 there were plenty of Remainers who while disappointed were willing to let Leave take the tiller for the while. Leavers then took the opportunity to enter into a spiral of paranoia and purity tests. At which point Remainers mentally headed for the life rafts. They’re not coming back now: they think you’re cuckoo.
>
> You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
>
> The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
The government has been consumed by Brexit. Leavers might complain about many things but the idea that Brexit has been insufficiently considered is not one of them. It has been considered in detail and on close examination it turns out that Leavers were clueless. Next steps have to be determined accordingly.
> > @Pulpstar said:
> > > @HYUFD said:
> > > https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1129087341073764359?s=20
> >
> > Boris - believes in precisely nothing
>
> And posted by the same HY who has been telling us for months that Boris would go hard for no deal.
I have never said that at all, I said Boris would go for hard Brexit and a Canada style FTA with No Deal if necessary until he can get that
> > @IanB2 said:
> >
> > Certainly right to exclude the Tories and Labour, but you are forgetting that the bulk of the remaining 7% are the nationalists in Scotland and Wales, who are very clearly remain.
>
> ---
>
> The leadership of the parties are Remain.
>
> I don't think it follows that the voters are.
>
> After all, it was not so long ago that the Nationalists (and Sinn Fein) were strongly eurosceptic.
>
I can't speak for Wales, but Scottish "nationalists" are as pro EU as any other party. That might not have been true 40 years ago, but it is today.
> Magic Grandpa's followers are upset:
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1129280676707090433
>
>
>
> Whilst YouGov are an outlier when it comes to Labours numbers I don't think that really merits being upset at them... some people get a bit carried away though.
Actually I'll take those numbers. We are used to some of our people voting LD tactically when they think it appropriate, and mostly coming back at GEs when we're the main alternative to the Tories. CUK, however, was a specific challenge to the current party and would have been a more existential threat if they'd taken off.
I don't particularly mind the Lib Dems whilst I really don't like CUK so if voters are too switch I would prefer that though Greens would be my non Labour preference.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48304975
> > @justin124 said:
>
> >
>
> > Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week.
>
>
>
> For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000.
>
> What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
All pollsters are consistently out if line with each other
> https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1129278892567617536
Given the Brexit Party is polling second for next week's Euro elections in Scotland Sturgeon will soon find out Scotland is not as universal a source of diehard Remainers as she thought
> > @thecommissioner said:
> > The idea that a significant core of remainers ever intended to compromise is for the birds. The various votes and the charade of these cross-party talks have illustrated it vividly.
> >
> > The idea that London Liberal voters and Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists have the same remain vision for the future of the UK is also a fantasy.
>
> Leavers never ask themselves why they have completely failed to persuade Remainers that they should give Leave a chance. The answer to that question goes a long way to explaining why Brexit is failing.
Which Remainers are you referring to ?
Some Remainers have been willing to engage and perhaps other Remainers might have done so.
But there are other Remainers who have eagerly pedaled fake news and falsehoods because of their hatred for Brexit - or perhaps their hatred for the people who voted for Brexit.
> The weirdest part of this Gov'ts messaging/strategy is the way they always leak something or other to the press, or make a unilateral announcement in an attempt to bounce the other side into agreement.
>
>
>
> They've done this with the EU, the DUP, Labour and occasionally their own backbenchers.
>
>
>
> It's worked with precisely none of them.
>
> Has she tried empathy? Sitting down, talking to them and listening to them?
>
> This is how humans work.
I think that is unfair. Labour and the ERG have shown a degree of inflexibility albeit for very different reasons which any leader would have been unable to counter. The fact is the biggest problem has always been the task rather than the personalities. Too many have failed to accept that a close result requires compromise. Now positions are so polarised that it is destroying the political system. Very sad to watch.
>
> I can't speak for Wales, but Scottish "nationalists" are as pro EU as any other party. That might not have been true 40 years ago, but it is today.
----
I take your word for it.
However, I did hear an interesting interview before the last general election from Scottish fisherman based in the marginal constituency of NE Fife.
They were strongly eurosceptic, but voting for the SNP.
When the contradiction was pointed out to them, they said something along the lines "Nicola would sort the EU out. It is Westminster that allowed the EU to shaft Scotland".
Perhaps Nicola will sort it out, but I wouldn't describe that attitude as "pro-EU".
It’s like the crazies have taken over , only absolute pain will do!
> Mrs May’s other major mistake was right at the start.
>
> When she appointed the disgraced national security risk Liam Fox, the lazy liar David Davis, and Boris Johnson to key Brexit roles but fired Gove and Osborne because they had clashed with her.
Agreed.
> Trump to pursue a more 'merit based' immigration policy focused on younger, better educated English speakers
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48304975
Given that the USA has never had a problem in attracting immigrants from this group, the policy is really just a way of preventing the immigration of families with poor or no English
> > @justin124 said:
>
> >
>
> > Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week.
>
>
>
> For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000.
>
> What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
Yep, increased sample size reduces the variance of the predictions but not any bias.
>
> However, I did hear an interesting interview before the last general election from Scottish fisherman based in the marginal constituency of NE Fife.
>
> They were strongly eurosceptic, but voting for the SNP.
>
> When the contradiction was pointed out to them, they said something along the lines "Nicola would sort the EU out. It is Westminster that allowed the EU to shaft Scotland".
>
> Perhaps Nicola will sort it out, but I wouldn't describe that attitude as "pro-EU".
-----------
In the case of fishing, it's true that almost all of what gets blamed on the CFP is really a Westminster issue. Being pro-EU isn't incompatible with wanting national interests looked after.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1129278892567617536
>
> Given the Brexit Party is polling second for next week's Euro elections in Scotland Sturgeon will soon find out Scotland is not as universal a source of diehard Remainers as she thought
"Second" but fourteen points behind, and then you have the smaller Remain parties as well.
Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
>
> In your video was Joan Ryan ex Labour. Not actually the worst CUK MP, more middle of the pack...
The worst CUK MP is a competitive contest.
And it was not so long ago that the Guardian & pb.com's Most Gullible were lauding these MPs as Political Giants.
It turns put that they had led such Pampered Lifes in the Labour or Tory political Machines that they were unable to do very simple things.
> The ERG on the other hand has never had a coherent position or even a unanimous one because it never needed one.
>
> The Bittereinders like Steve "Brexit Hardman" Baker and Mark "Family Guy" Francois have been completely coherent. They want no deal and will do whatever maximises the chances of that happening.
No deal is not a coherent position, that's the trouble. No deal is just a transition state on the road to somewhere else, because we will still be parked next to Europe and we still will have to deal and trade with it and various other foreign entities. Where is that "somewhere else" and how do we get from leaving with no deal to those sunlit uplands? That is where there is no consensus and often not much evidence they've even considered the matter.
Brexit is an unmitigated disaster.
It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
Brexit is an extreme project.
Brexiters are extremists.
Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
> https://twitter.com/election_data/status/1129286775061602304
The widths of those bars should be proportional to the number of voters in each group. If the labour+leave group is quite small then effect of 47% voting Brexit party is less than visually portrayed.
>
> In the case of fishing, it's true that almost all of what gets blamed on the CFP is really a Westminster issue. Being pro-EU isn't incompatible with wanting national interests looked after.
---
I know little about fishing rights, so I would be interested in hearing why this is a Westminster issue, rather than an EU one.
> Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise.
>
> Brexit is an unmitigated disaster.
> It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
>
> Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
>
> Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
>
> Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
>
> But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
>
> Brexit is an extreme project.
> Brexiters are extremists.
> Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
The EU believes in EverCloserUnion.
The EU is an extreme project.
Remainers are extremists.
The EU - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
Easy isn't it.
> Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise.
>
> Brexit is an unmitigated disaster.
> It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
>
> Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
>
> Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
>
> Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
>
> But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
>
> Brexit is an extreme project.
> Brexiters are extremists.
> Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides.
> > @justin124 said:
>
> >
>
> > Yougov is consistently out of line with other pollsters. I doubt that we will see these figures next week.
>
>
>
> For what it's worth, this poll has a sample size over 7000.
>
> What its worth is slightly higher precision than the more normal 2000 panel if the sample is representative. If the sample is poorly chosen it doesn't help at all.
If anything, given the problems finding an unbiased sample, a poll with a larger sample size could be worse as the problems in finding the sample could be exaggerated when needing to find 7,000 respondents instead of 1,000.
Would it do untold damage to the UK? Highly likely. Is this something that trumps their ideology? Highly unlikely for the rump ERG.
The bomb is on countdown mode and the government is trying to work out whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire.
Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
>
> I know little about fishing rights, so I would be interested in hearing why this is a Westminster issue, rather than an EU one.
--------
The quota allocation system is decided nationally. The UK allows its quotas to be traded which has resulted in large amounts of it being owned by non-UK entities. Some other countries like Denmark reserve a part of their quotas for local, small-scale fishers and don't allow them to be sold.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2017/05/02/fishing-quotas-in-europe-who-gets-the-right-to-fish/
> https://twitter.com/election_data/status/1129286775061602304
12% of Tory Remainers voting Brexit is interesting. It's more than just the random 3% you often get. I wonder what their motivation is?
> > @Gardenwalker said:
> > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise.
> >
> > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster.
> > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
> >
> > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
> >
> > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
> >
> > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
> >
> > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
> >
> > Brexit is an extreme project.
> > Brexiters are extremists.
> > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
>
> Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides.
Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets.
Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party.
So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/election_data/status/1129286775061602304
>
> 12% of Tory Remainers voting Brexit is interesting. It's more than just the random 3% you often get. I wonder what their motivation is?
They're converts from Remain to Leave.
>
> I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
---------
And May called the election precisely to overcome that problem. The fact that voters took her majority away should have led to a total rethink on Brexit strategy in June 2017.
> > @anothernick said:
> > > @Gardenwalker said:
> > > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise.
> > >
> > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster.
> > > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
> > >
> > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
> > >
> > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
> > >
> > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
> > >
> > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
> > >
> > > Brexit is an extreme project.
> > > Brexiters are extremists.
> > > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
> >
> > Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides.
>
> Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets.
>
> Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party.
> @tlg86 said:
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/election_data/status/1129286775061602304
>
> 12% of Tory Remainers voting Brexit is interesting. It's more than just the random 3% you often get. I wonder what their motivation is?
Some Remain voters want Brexit because they won the referendum....
But what does that tell us about ourselves who have seen the shambles unfolding over several years but still want out? Nothing other than we have a hardcore xenophobic population of about 45% and there's nothing we can do about it
> https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1129294243699331073?s=21
52:48
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/election_data/status/1129286775061602304
>
> 12% of Tory Remainers voting Brexit is interesting. It's more than just the random 3% you often get. I wonder what their motivation is?
But it's a subsample so the "margin of error" will be considerably higher.
Edit: In addition, some people do change their mind after 3 years. There is churn in both directions.
>
> Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not.
-----
That's not true. The WAB would have needed to be passed by parliament in any case.
> > @TOPPING said:
> >
> > I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
> ---------
> And May called the election precisely to overcome that problem. The fact that voters took her majority away should have led to a total rethink on Brexit strategy in June 2017.
Brexit was hardly mentioned in the 2017 GE.
What should have led to a rethink by May was her inability to explain policies and Labour's willingness to exploit politically.
> You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
>
> The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
>
>
> This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
>
> Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
>
> The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
>
> Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
Whilst the polling is interesting and gets all us political obsessive on here frothed up it must be taken with a large pinch of salt. We are after all voting for MEPs who may not even take their seats in a parliament and system we have already voted to leave. On top of that we have party leaders in May and Corbyn who are deeply unpopular with the public at large, and polls are supposed to have representative samples when CHUK and Brexit have only come into being in the last few months.
Therefore it’s almost a free hit for the polling companies - publish as many polls as you can and hope one gets it right .
> It is interesting that according to Katya Adler within the countries of the EU the EU has never been more popular than it is at the moment. Partly because they can see the shambles in the UK and partly because of the sense of community it engenders.
>
>
> But what does that tell us about ourselves who have seen the shambles unfolding over several years but still want out? Nothing other than we have a hardcore xenophobic population of about 45% and there's nothing we can do about it
>
>
Yet the surveys show that the UK is one of the most tolerant countries in Europe whereas the country you live in is one of the most bigoted.
> We are after all voting for MEPs who may not even take their seats in a parliament and system we have already voted to leave.
Do you really believe that Brexit will come before the start of July?
https://tinyurl.com/y3d4dmoq
SWR announces temporary delay to Class 442 fleet introduction
There could be a few short formations on Monday morning creating some disgruntlement among Surrey commuters. No doubt social media will be all over it, so that will be fun to watch.
> > @anothernick said:
> > > @Gardenwalker said:
> > > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise.
> > >
> > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster.
> > > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
> > >
> > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
> > >
> > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
> > >
> > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
> > >
> > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
> > >
> > > Brexit is an extreme project.
> > > Brexiters are extremists.
> > > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
> >
> > Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides.
>
> Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets.
>
> Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party.
The Brexit promised at the referendum was, and is, not deliverable.
> It is interesting that according to Katya Adler within the countries of the EU the EU has never been more popular than it is at the moment. Partly because they can see the shambles in the UK and partly because of the sense of community it engenders.
>
>
> But what does that tell us about ourselves who have seen the shambles unfolding over several years but still want out? Nothing other than we have a hardcore xenophobic population of about 45% and there's nothing we can do about it
>
>
Most polls show the UK more tolerant than France and Italy for example where the hardline anti immigration parties of Le Pen and Salvini will likely win the European elections next week according to the latest polls. In Austria the far right are already part of the Government.
Is Norway xenophobic because it is not in the EU and polling shows it has no desire to be? Is Iceland? Is Switzerland?
> > @Nemtynakht said:
> > We are after all voting for MEPs who may not even take their seats in a parliament and system we have already voted to leave.
>
> Do you really believe that Brexit will come before the start of July?
No but who knows? Do you think anyone cares who their MEP is? Most people would not have been able to name their MEPs when we not leaving. Do you think people are going to care more now we are leaving.
>
> So what was the effect of Grieve’s meaningful vote amendment?
It gave the government a preview of whether they would be able to get a majority to vote for the legislation.
What does that mean?
do we really think the leadership race be done before recess, or will it run across the summer?
> You make it sound as if May wasnt one of those Remainers.
>
> The truth is that Remain MPs pretended to accept the loss in order to get re elected in 2017, since when they have refused to vote for anything that involves us leaving, while many agitate to ignore it reverse the referendum altogether. If you were an ordinary member of the public who voted Leave, how have you been listened to would you say?
>
>
> This is a joke, right? Rearrange these letters in a different order: GER.
>
> Had they come on board we would be out of the EU by now. The group is not exactly chock full of "Remain MPs".
>
> The maths says you should arrange these letters; ON
>
> Had all the ERG voted down her Deal and every other MP voted for it we’d have left. Reverse that and we’d be where we are now
>
> I think we can take the Labour Party out of the equation as they are mostly remainers true but they are the opposition and it was fanciful, given as @AlastairMeeks and many others on here have pointed out, the gross errors of judgement by May at the outset to think they would support her. Plus it's not their job to do so - that is the political system we are in and not to recognise that is I think naive.
>
> So we had a government entrusted to enact a policy and within that government's own ranks there was dissent, and that dissent, to begin with, was almost wholly from Leavers.
>
> Dominic Grieve stacked the deck so that MPs who wanted to stop Brexit happening had the casting vote on whether we leave or not.
>
> Yes I agree with your point there. Had parliament not been asked to agree the deal it would have passed. But it was used for party political purposes by Labour. Was that Grieve's intention? Perhaps. But the fact remains that the Cons had the wherewithal, even with the DUP's position, to get this over the line and it was the Leavers who scuppered it.
It may yet be Labour MPs from Leave seats who get the WA over the line in panic at the rise of the Brexit Party in their areas next week and the Brexit Party gaining the Peterborough by election from Labour
Everything he touches gets ****ed.
> > @another_richard said:
> > > @anothernick said:
> > > > @Gardenwalker said:
> > > > Leavers continuing to blame Remainers on this thread for their own failure to address Brexit failures, and their own unwillingness to compromise.
> > > >
> > > > Brexit is an unmitigated disaster.
> > > > It has consumed the government for three years; is destroying the Conservative Party, is badly wounding the Labour Party, is damaging the economy, crushed our reputation abroad, has made us weaker, and is leading us to the politics of demagoguery and even - on the edges - fascism.
> > > >
> > > > Brexit’s inherent bad faith will eventually see it discredited (see also, the Iraq War), but not without yet more chaos coming down the pipe.
> > > >
> > > > Was I, a Remainer, willing to compromise after the Vote? Well, I certainly wasn’t calling for Revoke but I hoped and expected a soft Brexit (EEA, but not CU).
> > > >
> > > > Some of the - ahem - “leading” Brexiters on here were advocating the same thing.
> > > >
> > > > But that was before saboteurs, citizens of nowhere, dark mention of “European interference” in the elections, and constant references to WW2 and “vassalage”.
> > > >
> > > > Brexit is an extreme project.
> > > > Brexiters are extremists.
> > > > Brexit - like other extreme projects - must be defeated.
> > >
> > > Excellent post. Says it all really - Brexit is a total disaster for the UK and the Tories and there are no upsides.
> >
> > Which is why we've had a year long recession and there are no strawberries in the supermarkets.
> >
> > Its the failure to deliver Brexit which is a total disaster for the Tories and appropriately so as the primary cause of the failure to deliver Brexit is the unfitness for purpose of the Tory party.
>
> The Brexit promised at the referendum was, and is, not deliverable.
Promised by whom ?
According to Remainers we would be in permanent recession, facing starvation and have refugee camps at Dover.
But if you're referring to what the Leave side said then perhaps we should have had those people in charge to see if they could put into practice what they predicted.
Instead we've had a government led by Remainers and a Parliament dominated by Remainers.
"These elections are different. They're under a proportional system."
Caroline Lucas should know better than that. When they tweeted something similar and I raised it with a senior Green, the answer was "oh, that was a new intern, they've been corrected".
The elections are for big-ass multi-member constituencies but they're not proportional. They're just a bit less unproportional than FPTP. Not greatly impressed with the Greens' one MP deliberately lying.
Leave or Remain I just can't see a large group of Lab MPs voting with May. Because just like you and me, suppose we get disillusioned with the Cons we are hardly likely to vote for Corbyn's Lab. Likewise suppose those Leave voting Lab supporters are pissed off with Lab on this, they are hardly likely to hand victory in their constituencies to the Cons.
> After GE 2017 a lot of people who like to analyse opinion polls were praising YouGov to the skies for their innovative and accurate new system. But on the Euro Elections, not so, I hear no talk of Gold Standard. Is it the same system?
Who was praising Yougov? They just decided to cover all their bases by having one model be bullish on Labour and the other bearish.
>
> We were told by the previous PM that the decision would be ours, not politicians. MPs having the power to vote down a deal that a PM had agreed goes against that 100%, and is the reason Farage seems to be doing well. They even had a GE afterwards where they promised to respect the result. I find it hard to see how Remain voters can shrug their shoulders at this really.
-------
If May had said right at the beginning that the people would get chance to approve the deal in a referendum, it would have been consistent with your view that it shouldn't be for politicians to make that decision.
ho ho
> It may yet be Labour MPs from Leave seats who get the WA over the line in panic at the rise of the Brexit Party in their areas next week and the Brexit Party gaining the Peterborough by election from Labour
>
> I just don't see it. @NickPalmer remains the gold standard forecaster on this when he told us many, many moons ago that he doesn't see more than half a dozen Lab MPs voting with the government (and reflect on the implications of that for a sec) and so it has proved.
>
> Leave or Remain I just can't see a large group of Lab MPs voting with May. Because just like you and me, suppose we get disillusioned with the Cons we are hardly likely to vote for Corbyn's Lab. Likewise suppose those Leave voting Lab supporters are pissed off with Lab on this, they are hardly likely to hand victory in their constituencies to the Cons.
A number voted UKIP in 2015 then Labour in 2017 and will now vote Brexit Party. In 2015 that enabled a Cameron majority which was lost in 2017.
Nandy etc now wavering it seems given the alternative if the Deal fails again will be revoke or No Deal which likely means revoke given the current Commons and a further Brexit Party surge with Farage even leading the polls by New Year
I’m guessing your hypothetical referendum has Remain as an option, which undermines the your point.
> > Who is the woman in that video?
>
> >
>
> > In your video was Joan Ryan ex Labour. Not actually the worst CUK MP, more middle of the pack...
>
>
>
> The worst CUK MP is a competitive contest.
>
>
>
> And it was not so long ago that the Guardian & pb.com's Most Gullible were lauding these MPs as Political Giants.
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> It turns put that they had led such Pampered Lifes in the Labour or Tory political Machines that they were unable to do very simple things.
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> At the time of writing, “No, that’d be the European Elections” was a big price
It’s difficult to fight local elections without activists. The Tiggers should have seen the petition for revoke as a potential membership list, committed to revoke, and done their utmost to recruit as many as possible. Instead they have focussed on party structures and nepotism, setting up just like the parties they have left! So much for change.
Galling as it is to praise Farage he really has done a number
Just looked at the BP website. Professional looking - first image is of a black woman in a support video, Farage further down the page. Simple punchy messages - we are the 17.4 million for example.
Look at the the CHUK website - unbelievably a large crowd of white people is their chosen image. A bland message of send the main parties a message is all well and good but without activists how do you turn that into support when LDs, Greens, SNP and PC all have the same message and activists
As a Remain voter, I can see merit in both positions. We voted to leave and we haven't left so something has gone badly wrong, yet at the same time the damage I believe would be caused by "just leaving" is something that no government could contemplate inflicting upon the country.
And hence we are where we are.
> "These elections are different. They're under a proportional system."
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> Caroline Lucas should know better than that. When they tweeted something similar and I raised it with a senior Green, the answer was "oh, that was a new intern, they've been corrected".
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> The elections are for big-ass multi-member constituencies but they're not proportional. They're just a bit less unproportional than FPTP. Not greatly impressed with the Greens' one MP deliberately lying.
It is sort-of PR, and what Lucas said is fair enough on that point. Whether there are more proportional voting systems is a debate for another day.