I've gone from having a slight preference for Swinson over Moran - to a position where Swinson would have to do something pretty awful between now and the election to not get my first preference. She just seems the obvious choice to me - now that things are starting to improve for the party it seems the time to build upon success rather than take risks. I wouldn't be unhappy if Moran won but she would be a bit risky.
I'm still #TeamLayla but I wouldn't be unhappy if Swinson won. She's performed well over the last few months. My two main reservations about her are that she seems preoccupied with identity politics and that she's still associated with the Coalition.
> > I made it @Roger. I would like the Lib Dems to do well, having just voted for them in the euro elections. I despair of the way Britain is going with people like Farage doing well and the normalisation of anti-semitism and anti-migrant sentiment (as has happened in Hungary - Orban - and in France - with Le Pen) and people like Widdecombe talking rubbish. I do not want this spread here anymore than it has already.
> >
> > Not sure what you find stupid about such statements. But each to their own, eh!
>
> If the best examples you can find are Hungary and France then you haven't travelled enough if at all.
They were examples not a definitive list let alone the best examples. Still, if that's your idea of the most stupid comment ever made on here, your standards are a bit odd. What upset you? Was it the fact that I mentioned France, a country you are forever praising by comparison with Britain but which has a long history of repulsive Poujadism, anti-semitism and anti-migrant feeling and behaviour?
I have travelled a lot, lived in three countries before I was 11 and speak 4 languages. I am saddened by what is happening in Britain and wish it were otherwise.
If you find my comment stupid, you need to look in the mirror.
He has made much more stupid comments already this morning , calling American students grieving their classmate "nutters", and labelling a middle of the road news site as "far right crack-pot"
It’s an event much better appreciated in person than on television
Definitely one for the bucket list.
I’ve been to Singapore, that was an epic weekend.
I have been to a few races, and on the whole would rather watch on TV. In person, you get the sound, and the smell, but you see the cars for a few brief seconds each lap, and in Monaco that is worse than most.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. Pulpstar, don't blame me, I'm in the minority who dislike Monaco intensely. It's slow and hard to pass almost to the point of impossibility. > > Was fun last year, though, hearing the drivers whine about how boring it was. Welcome to the club, thought I.
Their comments are instructive, though. I was a Silverstone last year at the exit of Stowe. I am certain that for the first 75% of the race they were coasting between Stowe and Vale. It was only after a few laps of the safety car that they started to race, presumably as they had enough fuel to get to the end.
Bringing back refuelling would make the sport interesting again. I'd also like to see a return to competitive tyres, but that can become the dominant factor.
Nothing wrong with Jo Swinson but if the idea is to lead an anti-Farage movement of the pro EU internationalist progressive cognescenti - to really get that rolling heart and soul - I would be going for Layla Moran. Higher risk, but potentially higher reward.
It would be interesting to see the Lib Dems think REALLY outside the box and strike a blow for diversity and give a bloke a try - but if that means Ed Davey I guess it's a long shot. Tainted by the past.
> > There is such a treasure trove of Remain politicians saying there wouldn’t be a 2nd referendum and that it would be disrespectful to campaign for one etc, that The Brexit Party won’t be able to use it all in time.
>
> They'll be able to save a lot of up for the general election (whenever it happens)
And there are plenty of examples of Leave politicians saying in 2016 saying the precise opposite of what they are saying now.
Intelligent people change their minds when the facts change. We know a lot more about what withdrawal from the EU means in practice than we did (well me, anyway) in 2016. There is no shame in saying that events have led to a change of mind.
Some intelligent people don't think the facts have changed. In any case, the people who ruled out a second referendum but are now campaigning for one were almost exclusively strong remain advocates in 2016. They always thought what they do now about the rights and wrongs of EU membership, they just knew they wouldn't get elected in 2017 if they said what they really thought about overturning the result, so I wouldn't credit their intelligence too much, its just politicking.
If "Vote Change UK" replaced the "For a People's Vote, For Remain" above it, I think that would look better.
But aren't we proving how great they are doing just by talking about it???!!!
It's so bad I do wonder if this is a deliberate strategy to look as amateur and anti-politics as possible. Some sort of crazy meta-messaging thinkgrouped campaigning where you do the opposite of what is expected in order to gain atention.
Of course it might simply be that CUK-TIG are rubbish at politics.
> @stodge said: > On topic: > > > > I've gone from having a slight preference for Swinson over Moran - to a position where Swinson would have to do something pretty awful between now and the election to not get my first preference. She just seems the obvious choice to me - now that things are starting to improve for the party it seems the time to build upon success rather than take risks. I wouldn't be unhappy if Moran won but she would be a bit risky. > > As I've said upthread, I don't have a strong view for or against any of the three of them. Ed and Jo bring more experience and arguably Ed more than Jo. Layla is the "new kid on the block" and has the virtue of not being tainted with Coalition though in a Party where three quarters of the membership joined AFTER 2015, it's much less important than you might think. > > I'll go to the London Hustings with as open a mind as I can manage and see where we go. My one concern is we can't be a one-trick pony for ever and we need to define some of the challenges and solutions facing Britain (whether inside or outside the EU) in the 2020s.
Yes, I'm a member who joined after 2015 myself... but I'm also a member who was attracted to the Liberal Democrats because of the coalition (which switched me from Conservative voter to Lib Dem voter before travelling all the way to Lib Dem member and now activist) so my perspective is a bit different to average.
If "Vote Change UK" replaced the "For a People's Vote, For Remain" above it, I think that would look better.
But aren't we proving how great they are doing just by talking about it???!!!
It's so bad I do wonder if this is a deliberate strategy to look as amateur and anti-politics as possible. Some sort of crazy meta-messaging thinkgrouped campaigning where you do the opposite of what is expected in order to gain atention.
I thought that. Same as their PPB.It is what they are, a bunch of well off, upper middle class people with their noses put out of joint playing at being rebels, but stinking of corporate insincerity.
Swinson is OK, not a bad choice by any means, but Layla Moran seems like a more dynamic, untainted option. Slapgate is awkward but not particularly damaging, she just needs to make sure she has some sort of quick response to shut it down when she gets asked about it.
Lib Dems should make clear they will not do another coalition with any party at the next election, confidence and supply should be the max.
As for Chuk they should be trying to get them to join the Lib Dems, a couple could be open to it, and maybe after the Euros even Chuka will realise Chuk has no future.
Seems like the coalition punishment is over, people who still go on about the LDs being the tories little helpers were clearly never going to vote for the party anyway. Be like me saying the Tories have lost my vote with this brexit mess - they would never have won it anyway.
I know it shouldn't really matter, and that I'm not exactly a suppoter, but holy cow it is hard to believe somebody looked at that and thought "job done". I'm 99% sure you could go on Fiverr and get something better.
Absolutely shocking. Plus the irony is never more stark of having "remain" and "change" side by side because of course remaining would be the opposite of change, now, wouldn't it.
If you can stomach civilians including women and children being shot indiscriminately then this is a must watch. The brilliant documentary by Olly Lambert 'One Day in Gaza' shown on BBC2 last night
Mr. 86, I'd also like to see refuelling return (not least because I have fond memories of the F1 Mole pointing out that qualifying performances indicating fuel weights could mean the grid and the final result weren't too similar, leading to some splendid bets in 2009).
But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish.
> @Morris_Dancer said: > Mr. 86, I'd also like to see refuelling return (not least because I have fond memories of the F1 Mole pointing out that qualifying performances indicating fuel weights could mean the grid and the final result weren't too similar, leading to some splendid bets in 2009). > > But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish.
Yes, Martin Brundle used to moan about not seeing cars in full quali trim, but I quite liked the years when the Top 10 had to nominate their fuel before Q3.
> @isam said: > > @GIN1138 said: > > > > @isam said: > > > > > @isam said: > > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1128219997183062016 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "We're Out" !!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "We're Not Out" !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is such a treasure trove of Remain politicians saying there wouldn’t be a 2nd referendum and that it would be disrespectful to campaign for one etc, that The Brexit Party won’t be able to use it all in time. > > > > > > > > > > And there are plenty of examples of Leave politicians saying in 2016 saying the precise opposite of what they are saying now. > > > > Intelligent people change their minds when the facts change. We know a lot more about what withdrawal from the EU means in practice than we did (well me, anyway) in 2016. There is no shame in saying that events have led to a change of mind. > > Some intelligent people don't think the facts have changed. In any case, the people who ruled out a second referendum but are now campaigning for one were almost exclusively strong remain advocates in 2016. They always thought what they do now about the rights and wrongs of EU membership, they just knew they wouldn't get elected in 2017 if they said what they really thought about overturning the result, so I wouldn't credit their intelligence too much, its just politicking.
Sure. There is scope for genuine disagreement on this point.
And I accept that some who want a second referendum want it because they think the voters got it wrong the first time.
But believe me or not: that is not my position. I want a second referendum because (a) we now know what withdrawal in practice means which we didn't in 2016; and (b) we need to get proper informed consent to the type of Brexit that is on offer if there is to be any chance of making it work.
In fact, what I want is a pause while we work out what we want to do - Ken Clarke has best described my position - because for all the sound and fury on Brexit over the years it seems to me that Britain still does not have a clue about what sort of relationship it wants with Continental Europe and what sort of role it wants to have in the world.
I have written a number of thread headers on this so will stop there. If anyone is interested they can read those.
I am - I must confess - getting a teensy bit bored with Brexit. There are plenty of other political issues which ought to be aired and discussed and aren't, which is a pity.
Anyway, it looks like being a lovely day so will sign off for now.
Mr. 86, I'd also like to see refuelling return (not least because I have fond memories of the F1 Mole pointing out that qualifying performances indicating fuel weights could mean the grid and the final result weren't too similar, leading to some splendid bets in 2009).
But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish.
A better idea would be to scrap the fuel flow restrictions, and let the drivers decide to turn up or down their engines, with limited fuel per race and reliability penalties as now. Would lead to more overtaking, the occasional driver running out of fuel on the last lap having misjudged it, and teams adopting a strategy of deliberately using more engines across a season but running them faster. More variation in other words.
> > > > > > > > One of the most stupid comments ever made on here. If I could understand the new arrow system I'd know who made it. > > > > > > I made it @Roger. I would like the Lib Dems to do well, having just voted for them in the euro elections. I despair of the way Britain is going with people like Farage doing well and the normalisation of anti-semitism and anti-migrant sentiment (as has happened in Hungary - Orban - and in France - with Le Pen) and people like Widdecombe talking rubbish. I do not want this spread here anymore than it has already. > > > > > > Not sure what you find stupid about such statements. But each to their own, eh! > > > > If the best examples you can find are Hungary and France then you haven't travelled enough if at all. > > They were examples not a definitive list let alone the best examples. Still, if that's your idea of the most stupid comment ever made on here, your standards are a bit odd. What upset you? Was it the fact that I mentioned France, a country you are forever praising by comparison with Britain but which has a long history of repulsive Poujadism, anti-semitism and anti-migrant feeling and behaviour? > > I have travelled a lot, lived in three countries before I was 11 and speak 4 languages. I am saddened by what is happening in Britain and wish it were otherwise. > > If you find my comment stupid, you need to look in the mirror.
As I said I find the arrows undecipherable. The comment which I thought stood alone was this which on any reading is beyond hyperbole and actually preposterous.
" I would like the Lib Dems to be a bit more of a force in British politics than they have been in the last 3 years. If I wanted to live in a country where politicians are nasty about Jews and migrants and talked demagogic rubbish to crowds I'd move to France or Hungary".
Sure. There is scope for genuine disagreement on this point.
And I accept that some who want a second referendum want it because they think the voters got it wrong the first time.
But believe me or not: that is not my position. I want a second referendum because (a) we now know what withdrawal in practice means which we didn't in 2016; and (b) we need to get proper informed consent to the type of Brexit that is on offer if there is to be any chance of making it work.
In fact, what I want is a pause while we work out what we want to do - Ken Clarke has best described my position - because for all the sound and fury on Brexit over the years it seems to me that Britain still does not have a clue about what sort of relationship it wants with Continental Europe and what sort of role it wants to have in the world.
I have written a number of thread headers on this so will stop there. If anyone is interested they can read those.
I am - I must confess - getting a teensy bit bored with Brexit. There are plenty of other political issues which ought to be aired and discussed and aren't, which is a pity.
Anyway, it looks like being a lovely day so will sign off for now.
I wasn't arguing that you shouldn't change your mind, nor anyone else. I just dont believe that the politicians campaigning for a 2nd referendum HAVE changed their mind, they just lied about respecting the vote at the 2017 GE, and are telling the truth now.
> @Cyclefree said: > I am - I must confess - getting a teensy bit bored with Brexit. There are plenty of other political issues which ought to be aired and discussed and aren't, which is a pity. >
Not helped by the fact that progress on it, and any sense of urgency to make any, appear to have entirely dried up.
On what? Ed Davey? He's put Swinson at 60-65% so that's hardly a case for lumping on at 1/2!
He or she did rule out Moran though. I didn't actually read any of the header until I saw Moran had pulled out, and just saw the conclusion ruled her out.
> @TOPPING said: > One of the most stupid comments ever made on here. If I could understand the new arrow system I'd know who made it. > > Get yourself over to vanilla, Rog - easy peasy to sort out the quotes.
Even if I understood it it's terrible for dyslexics like me and mine's pretty slight.
> @Roger said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > @Roger said: > > > > @Cyclefree said: > > > > @Roger said: > > > > > > @Cyclefree said: > > > > > > > @Charles said: > > > > > > > > @YBarddCwsc said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Her statement was agreed by her ex partner Richard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Citation, please. What did the boyf agree ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is in the first paragraph of her statement: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1109528327453331456 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “Permission to share our story” sounds like a very precise wording. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is NOT an endorsement ... but is intended to sound like one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the most stupid comments ever made on here. If I could understand the new arrow system I'd know who made it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said I find the arrows undecipherable. The comment which I thought stood alone was this which on any reading is beyond hyperbole and actually preposterous. > > " I would like the Lib Dems to be a bit more of a force in British politics than they have been in the last 3 years. If I wanted to live in a country where politicians are nasty about Jews and migrants and talked demagogic rubbish to crowds I'd move to France or Hungary".
1. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that I would like the Lib Dems to do better?
2. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that Hungary is a country where the leader (Orban) is nasty about Jews (see his comments about Soros) and migrants and talks demagogic rubbish?
3. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that France is a country where there is a nastiness towards Jews (check out the rate of Jewish emigration from France) and migrants and politicians (Le Pen - a candidate for the Presidency at the last election) talking demagogic rubbish?
4. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that I don't want Britain to be like this?
...The comment which I thought stood alone was this which on any reading is beyond hyperbole and actually preposterous.
" I would like the Lib Dems to be a bit more of a force in British politics than they have been in the last 3 years. If I wanted to live in a country where politicians are nasty about Jews and migrants and talked demagogic rubbish to crowds I'd move to France or Hungary".
In what way is it 'beyond' hyperbole or preposterous ?
(edit... I see Cyclefree has posed the same question. But at least I've got rid of most of the indents which so confuse you.)
> @isam said: > > @Pulpstar said: > > > Amazing, hope he got plenty on > > > > On what? Ed Davey? He's put Swinson at 60-65% so that's hardly a case for lumping on at 1/2! > > He or she did rule out Moran though. I didn't actually read any of the header until I saw Moran had pulled out, and just saw the conclusion ruled her out.
Yes. The logic was good but the betting odds / percentages bit thereafter didn't follow.
Mr. Sandpit, that'd also be better than the status quo.
Or scrap 99% of the technical regulations and give them 100kg of fuel for the race, with car and engine design completely free but for the safety cell and crash test - let all those expensive designers and engineers actually innovate.
Can’t see Liberty going for that one though - they’d much rather move further move towards a spec series, nudging the emphasis towards drivers rather than cars. I’m not sure they realised that F1 is primarily a prototype series for constructors.
Where do they get these people!always write in the active voice, avoid conditionals and negatives!
Good advice. Follow it!
Incidentally the Brexit Party are knocking it out of the park in terms of election literature and media. It is obviously much easier if you don't have any policies to sell, but impressive nonetheless.
Where do they get these people!always write in the active voice, avoid conditionals and negatives!
Good advice. Follow it!
Incidentally the Brexit Party are knocking it out of the park in terms of election literature and media. It is obviously much easier if you don't have any policies to sell, but impressive nonetheless.
For the EU elections they only need the one policy - to make their elected MEPs redundant as soon as possible.
A UK general election manifesto is much more difficult, and they’re not going to start talking about health, education and defence right before the EU elections where those policy areas are meaningless.
Mr. 86, I'd also like to see refuelling return (not least because I have fond memories of the F1 Mole pointing out that qualifying performances indicating fuel weights could mean the grid and the final result weren't too similar, leading to some splendid bets in 2009).
But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish.
A better idea would be to scrap the fuel flow restrictions, and let the drivers decide to turn up or down their engines, with limited fuel per race and reliability penalties as now. Would lead to more overtaking, the occasional driver running out of fuel on the last lap having misjudged it, and teams adopting a strategy of deliberately using more engines across a season but running them faster. More variation in other words.
Scrapping fuel flow limits would make every race a hyper-miling festival chasing maximum fuel economy until 5 laps to go when it would become a destruction derby due to massive differences in speed. The fuel flow restriction means that the F/A map can only keep the engine in stoich up to about 3.5 bar of boost. Even they didn't have the FF restriction then there would have to be a boost limit which would be more or less them same thing but implemented in way that's less attractive to the power unit constructors. FFR makes them chase efficiency gains all over the powertrain which makes it easier for them to justify going F1 racing to the briefcase wankers.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @Roger said: > > > > She slapped her boyfriend and he reported it to the police. Is that what happened? > > I don't think we fully know what happened, actually. > > My understanding is that "others" reported it to the police. > > Presumably other Liberal Democrats, as I can't imagine anyone else would be at a tiny Scottish Liberal Democrat conference.
If you'd said you couldn't imagine anyone but a quiche eating sandal wearing Lib Dem reporting it to the police I'd think you might have a point
> @stodge said: > > @MarqueeMark said: > > > Prediction: Moran will stand. And win. > > > > > > And be epically awful. > > > > Maybe - though I was very unimpressed with Swinson on the Local Elections results programme. > > I find it hard to believe either of you would ever be impressed by a Lib Dem leader.
Not true. I was impressed by Charles Kennedy and voted LibDem at the elections of 2001 & 2005. I also had a lot of time for David Steel and Jo Grimond.
I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians.
I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
> @Jonathan said: > @Roger and @Cyclefree are essentially on the same side and yet they're arguing. > > This is why Farage and the gang win. > > If this new breed of populists demagogues are to be stopped, a lot of people need to stop bickering, bury the hatchet and learn to work together.
> @Tissue_Price said: > > @isam said: > > > @Pulpstar said: > > > > > Amazing, hope he got plenty on > > > > > > > > On what? Ed Davey? He's put Swinson at 60-65% so that's hardly a case for lumping on at 1/2! > > > > He or she did rule out Moran though. I didn't actually read any of the header until I saw Moran had pulled out, and just saw the conclusion ruled her out. > > Yes. The logic was good but the betting odds / percentages bit thereafter didn't follow.
I meant of course hope he got plenty on laying Moran on the exchange
> @Blue_rog said: > I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians. > > I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
When you can't decide yourself, other eventually make your decision for you.
A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us.
She was never going to stand. I did mention that months ago when it first was raised here. Having heard it from her campaign manager for OxWab and from her herself.
> I've gone from having a slight preference for Swinson over Moran - to a position where Swinson would have to do something pretty awful between now and the election to not get my first preference. She just seems the obvious choice to me - now that things are starting to improve for the party it seems the time to build upon success rather than take risks. I wouldn't be unhappy if Moran won but she would be a bit risky.
>
> As I've said upthread, I don't have a strong view for or against any of the three of them. Ed and Jo bring more experience and arguably Ed more than Jo. Layla is the "new kid on the block" and has the virtue of not being tainted with Coalition though in a Party where three quarters of the membership joined AFTER 2015, it's much less important than you might think.
>
> I'll go to the London Hustings with as open a mind as I can manage and see where we go. My one concern is we can't be a one-trick pony for ever and we need to define some of the challenges and solutions facing Britain (whether inside or outside the EU) in the 2020s.
Yes, I'm a member who joined after 2015 myself... but I'm also a member who was attracted to the Liberal Democrats because of the coalition (which switched me from Conservative voter to Lib Dem voter before travelling all the way to Lib Dem member and now activist) so my perspective is a bit different to average.
Snap. Now I'm a Lib Dem councillor. Which I wouldn't have expected back in 2010, that's for sure.
> Where do they get these people!always write in the active voice, avoid conditionals and negatives! > Good advice. Follow it! > Incidentally the Brexit Party are knocking it out of the park in terms of election literature and media. It is obviously much easier if you don't have any policies to sell, but impressive nonetheless.
Don`t overlook the spending limits. Everything that a party has spent since (I think) January has to be taken into account. Obviously this makes life more difficult for the established parties, who have been campaigning and spending all this time, and their scope is now seriously limited. Much easier for a new party, of which we have two, who have shedloads of money and can spend it all now.
I agreed with Mark (I think it was) that Moran would probably have won. Having Swinson as leader isn't risk-free but I think it'll work okay. And Moran has put herself in pole position to become leader in 6-8 years' time.
> @williamglenn said: > A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us. > > "Us" meaning the Welsh? They'd welcome you with open arms.
Brexit Chaos is the best chance for Welsh independence.
The Scots have to leave first.
Welsh Labour need to be confronted with the idea of being stuck in an abusive marriage with Jacob Rees-Mogg -- I suspect they may then find divorce more attractive.
> @isam said: > Sure. There is scope for genuine disagreement on this point. > > > > And I accept that some who want a second referendum want it because they think the voters got it wrong the first time. > > > > But believe me or not: that is not my position. I want a second referendum because (a) we now know what withdrawal in practice means which we didn't in 2016; and (b) we need to get proper informed consent to the type of Brexit that is on offer if there is to be any chance of making it work. > > > > In fact, what I want is a pause while we work out what we want to do - Ken Clarke has best described my position - because for all the sound and fury on Brexit over the years it seems to me that Britain still does not have a clue about what sort of relationship it wants with Continental Europe and what sort of role it wants to have in the world. > > > > I have written a number of thread headers on this so will stop there. If anyone is interested they can read those. > > > > I am - I must confess - getting a teensy bit bored with Brexit. There are plenty of other political issues which ought to be aired and discussed and aren't, which is a pity. > > > > Anyway, it looks like being a lovely day so will sign off for now. > > I wasn't arguing that you shouldn't change your mind, nor anyone else. I just dont believe that the politicians campaigning for a 2nd referendum HAVE changed their mind, they just lied about respecting the vote at the 2017 GE, and are telling the truth now.
It is almost certain some politicians did "lie"/play politics in talking about respecting the vote and then told the truth about wanting a 2nd ref when it became politically expedient.
It is also true others would have been happy to respect the referendum at the time they said it but the behaviour of the ERG opened up a massive political opportunity for the Labour party which they have taken advantage of.
There it will be at least a third group, who were happy to respect the referendum at the time, and would have been happy to respect a brexit that was delivered with confidence, consent and good leadership, but are not happy to support either Mays brexit (because it has so little support in the country more than anything intrinsically wrong with it), or no deal Brexit which would be madness and in most peoples opinion would not respect the referendum vote either.
There are probably other reasons for switching too, not all of them are just liars, for people who are not obsessed on brexit other things matter too. Every day the obsessives on both sides seek to explain behaviour purely by leave/remain when it will always be more complex than that.
Brexit Chaos is the best chance for Welsh independence.
The Scots have to leave first.
Welsh Labour need to be confronted with the idea of being stuck in an abusive marriage with Jacob Rees-Mogg -- I suspect they may then find divorce more attractive.
At the rate we're going, neither Jacob Rees-Mogg nor Welsh Labour will be a factor.
> @Blue_rog said: > I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians. > > I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
Mr. Glenn, I get the feeling there's a pun to be had regarding Offa's Dyke.
"We're Offa!" or suchlike. Hmm.
That said, I don't think Wales leaving the UK would be good for anyone.
I think the metaphor of "leaving" is the wrong way of looking at it. If the UK implodes, the decision for Wales will be between independence and being part of an English state like the pre-union days.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @williamglenn said: > > A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us. > > > > "Us" meaning the Welsh? They'd welcome you with open arms. > > Brexit Chaos is the best chance for Welsh independence. > > The Scots have to leave first. > > Welsh Labour need to be confronted with the idea of being stuck in an abusive marriage with Jacob Rees-Mogg -- I suspect they may then find divorce more attractive.
I'd think it possible that Welsh Labour would follow the SLab route, they'll shrink and calcify into a rump battling the other Unionist parties for the 'more Unionist than the most Unionist thing you can think of' title, while trying out various leaders on for size. I'd love to be proved wrong, mind.
@Morris_Dancer - Do you think Monaco is any more boring than say Barcelona? I watched the first few laps on Sunday and when I came back to it at half time in the football NOTHING HAD CHANGED.
There have always been processional races, but the sport seems so tedious these days.
Formula One has been incredibly tedious for several years. It's a shame, as the sport has great potential to be exciting. But, a cabal of course designers and weirdo petrolhead fans who favour nerding out over badges and engine parts to competitive sport.
I've gone from having a slight preference for Swinson over Moran - to a position where Swinson would have to do something pretty awful between now and the election to not get my first preference. She just seems the obvious choice to me - now that things are starting to improve for the party it seems the time to build upon success rather than take risks. I wouldn't be unhappy if Moran won but she would be a bit risky.
As I've said upthread, I don't have a strong view for or against any of the three of them. Ed and Jo bring more experience and arguably Ed more than Jo. Layla is the "new kid on the block" and has the virtue of not being tainted with Coalition though in a Party where three quarters of the membership joined AFTER 2015, it's much less important than you might think.
I'll go to the London Hustings with as open a mind as I can manage and see where we go. My one concern is we can't be a one-trick pony for ever and we need to define some of the challenges and solutions facing Britain (whether inside or outside the EU) in the 2020s.
It should be Moran purely because – as you say – they need a none Coalitionista.
It's so obvious the hapless Liberals will probably do the opposite.
I've gone from having a slight preference for Swinson over Moran - to a position where Swinson would have to do something pretty awful between now and the election to not get my first preference. She just seems the obvious choice to me - now that things are starting to improve for the party it seems the time to build upon success rather than take risks. I wouldn't be unhappy if Moran won but she would be a bit risky.
As I've said upthread, I don't have a strong view for or against any of the three of them. Ed and Jo bring more experience and arguably Ed more than Jo. Layla is the "new kid on the block" and has the virtue of not being tainted with Coalition though in a Party where three quarters of the membership joined AFTER 2015, it's much less important than you might think.
I'll go to the London Hustings with as open a mind as I can manage and see where we go. My one concern is we can't be a one-trick pony for ever and we need to define some of the challenges and solutions facing Britain (whether inside or outside the EU) in the 2020s.
It should be Moran purely because – as you say – they need a none Coalitionista.
It's so obvious the hapless Liberals will probably do the opposite.
I've gone from having a slight preference for Swinson over Moran - to a position where Swinson would have to do something pretty awful between now and the election to not get my first preference. She just seems the obvious choice to me - now that things are starting to improve for the party it seems the time to build upon success rather than take risks. I wouldn't be unhappy if Moran won but she would be a bit risky.
As I've said upthread, I don't have a strong view for or against any of the three of them. Ed and Jo bring more experience and arguably Ed more than Jo. Layla is the "new kid on the block" and has the virtue of not being tainted with Coalition though in a Party where three quarters of the membership joined AFTER 2015, it's much less important than you might think.
I'll go to the London Hustings with as open a mind as I can manage and see where we go. My one concern is we can't be a one-trick pony for ever and we need to define some of the challenges and solutions facing Britain (whether inside or outside the EU) in the 2020s.
It should be Moran purely because – as you say – they need a none Coalitionista.
It's so obvious the hapless Liberals will probably do the opposite.
Finger on the pulse as always!
Just seen the Standard story. It would appear I was right.
There really is no helping the Liberals – this is the outfit that chose Vince Cable last time.
Oh Dear, now we see how natalie was corrupted, unionist media managed to hide this away , amazing how selective they are and how nasty the Tories are , they promote their bad uns................ https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1128214093104599041
I wonder whether slapping her boyfriend around might be good for Layla? In these days of alpha males like Trump Farage and Duterte a female who looks like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth but really packs a punch might be just what the Lib Dems need.
> There really is no helping the Liberals – this is the outfit that chose Vince Cable last time. > > Oh dear.
I don't think this is merited given their performance in the locals. They're on something of a resurgence at the moment, with a very clear message that appears to be striking a chord. To that extent, Vince Cable is doing just fine.
The re-emergence of the LibDems really is quite remarkable. I think many of us had assumed they would be out for a generation, like Major's 1992-7 Tories or Callaghan's Labour 1979. But they've bounced back in a handful of years. I guess Brexit has wiped the slates clean? Student fees was bad news, but a nano-scale measure compared to the Brexit disaster for both Conservatives and Labour.
> > > If this is non-trolling and courteous I'd hate to see you when you think you're doing the opposite. > > Light hearted pointing out that the comment is out of date. Untwist thy knickers
> There really is no helping the Liberals – this is the outfit that chose Vince Cable last time.
>
> Oh dear.
I don't think this is merited given their performance in the locals. They're on something of a resurgence at the moment, with a very clear message that appears to be striking a chord. To that extent, Vince Cable is doing just fine.
The re-emergence of the LibDems really is quite remarkable. I think many of us had assumed they would be out for a generation, like Major's 1992-7 Tories or Callaghan's Labour 1979. But they've bounced back in a handful of years. I guess Brexit has wiped the slates clean? Student fees was bad news, but a nano-scale measure compared to the Brexit disaster for both Conservatives and Labour.
Bollox to Brexit was a complete masterstroke.
Brexit will be the gift that keeps giving for LDs. Unless there is some kind of once in a thousand year miracle and Jezza finally gets persuaded to go for a 2nd vote.
> @rottenborough said: > https://twitter.com/jaycee1001/status/1128250800424259584 > > > > So bring back hanging, the birch, no more foreign aid, ties at the theatre, return to predecimal coinage etc etc. > > More seriously, Farage will soon find out why parties have layers of policy making, and no doubt will allow his own personal veto.
"Prison for strikers, bring back the cat. Throw out the n*ggers, how about that?" as Philip Larkin said.
> @YBarddCwsc said: > > @Blue_rog said: > > I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians. > > > > I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!" > > When you can't decide yourself, other eventually make your decision for you. > > A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us. _________________________________________________________________ It's the percentage vote that counts. If the 6M would get out and vote, that's 50% of the 2014 turnout, even before the less enthustiastic voters appear.
Now that the shock of 2016 has apparently given the UK its first ever pro-EU movement, * they know what to do on 23 May. Some may of course vote Tory or Labour and deny CUK/Green/LD/PC/SNP a vote.
On 23 March in London, there were large Momentum for EU and Tories for EU banners. I can't remember ever seeing the right and left supporting the same cause before. Maybe those people are tribally loyal?
* I think there was a European federalist movement led by the Liberal party in the 1940s, but that's way before my time.
> @Blue_rog said: > I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians. > > I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
As with many things Brexit this comes back to Ireland. There's only so much that they can do to prepare to protect Ireland. If the EU push the UK out it will entail pushing Ireland under the bus. I don't think they will do that.
There is a lot said about the dishonesty of politicians (Leave and Remain), or the unreasonableness of EU negotiators, but ultimately Brexit circles round, time and again, to Ireland.
1. We voted to Leave to take back control. 2. For the sake of peace in Ireland we can't impose a border between NI and the Republic, or between NI and GB. 3. So we have to remain bound by the rules of the Single Market and Customs Union to a substantial extent. 4. But as we won't be a member of the EU, we would have no say in those rules. 5. So looks like leaving would involve giving away control. 6. Maybe we should remain after all.
Now I reckon that there is a Brexit somewhere in the middle where we lose control on some things - like setting the rules of the Single Market - but we gain control over some others - like Immigration, Fisheries and Agriculture. Norway is relatively happy with a broadly similar trade-off. I'd rather stay in, but I could see some people willing to exchange control over some things in return for more control over others.
No-one told Leavers during the referendum campaign, or since, that they might have to compromise and prioritise. Britain's history means that we have lots of entanglements with other countries. We can't just walk away from them and pretend that they don't exist. We would cease to be a country to be taken seriously.
A colleague of mine once, wisely, pointed out that those most apt to critique others are least able to take it. You frequently dish out snide one-line comments, which is why you fall out with so many on here. I expect there will be another one-liner back, but perhaps you might listen for once.
Anyway, back to the politics ... the LibDems are doing remarkably well considering where they started from in the polls. I think they will pull into the 20's next week, which is where I suspect the BP to finish.
I just wonder, completely crazy though this may appear, whether it's worth a bob or two (no more) on the idea that they could surprise the Brexit Party ... probably not but I just have a hunch.
A colleague of mine once, wisely, pointed out that those most apt to critique others are least able to take it. You frequently dish out snide one-line comments, which is why you fall out with so many on here. I expect there will be another one-liner back, but perhaps you might listen for once.
Anyway, back to the politics ... the LibDems are doing remarkably well considering where they started from in the polls. I think they will pull into the 20's next week, which is where I suspect the BP to finish.
I just wonder, completely crazy though this may appear, whether it's worth a bob or two (no more) on the idea that they could surprise the Brexit Party ... probably not but I just have a hunch.
> > Brexit will be the gift that keeps giving for LDs. Unless there is some kind of once in a thousand year miracle and Jezza finally gets persuaded to go for a 2nd vote. > > Bollx to Brexit will run and run.
I think that's absolutely right.
The hard fact is that Brexit, in whatever form, is an almighty cock-up. It will continue to be whatever happens, for the next decade.
So, as you say, it's the gift for the LDs that will keep on giving.
I wonder whether slapping her boyfriend around might be good for Layla? In these days of alpha males like Trump Farage and Duterte a female who looks like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth but really packs a punch might be just what the Lib Dems need.
In the politest terms possible, she withdrew from the race about two hours ago
> @Jonathan said: > @Roger and @Cyclefree are essentially on the same side and yet they're arguing. > > This is why Farage and the gang win. > > If this new breed of populists demagogues are to be stopped, a lot of people need to stop bickering, bury the hatchet and learn to work together.
What's needed is a compelling alternative vision. Pretty much the worst way to go about that is to insist on something which everyone can agree on
I see people are starting to use "Faragist" to give the former UKIP leader a certain fascist feel. Though I am not sure the people use it recognise the linguistic similarity to Falangist, with its close relationship to Francoist Spain and its fascist leanings.
> @Dura_Ace said: > Mr. 86, I'd also like to see refuelling return (not least because I have fond memories of the F1 Mole pointing out that qualifying performances indicating fuel weights could mean the grid and the final result weren't too similar, leading to some splendid bets in 2009). > > But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish. > > A better idea would be to scrap the fuel flow restrictions, and let the drivers decide to turn up or down their engines, with limited fuel per race and reliability penalties as now. Would lead to more overtaking, the occasional driver running out of fuel on the last lap having misjudged it, and teams adopting a strategy of deliberately using more engines across a season but running them faster. More variation in other words. > > Scrapping fuel flow limits would make every race a hyper-miling festival chasing maximum fuel economy until 5 laps to go when it would become a destruction derby due to massive differences in speed. The fuel flow restriction means that the F/A map can only keep the engine in stoich up to about 3.5 bar of boost. Even they didn't have the FF restriction then there would have to be a boost limit which would be more or less them same thing but implemented in way that's less attractive to the power unit constructors. FFR makes them chase efficiency gains all over the powertrain which makes it easier for them to justify going F1 racing to the briefcase wankers.
Get rid of some of the aero is what's needed (and which might just happen).
Corbyn will see some justification for his Brexit fudge there, on those numbers Labour could scrape a majority despite only matching Kinnock's 1992 voteshare as more Tory voters are defecting to the Brexit Party than Labour voters are defecting to the LDs
Comments
> Mr. Pulpstar, don't blame me, I'm in the minority who dislike Monaco intensely. It's slow and hard to pass almost to the point of impossibility.
>
> Was fun last year, though, hearing the drivers whine about how boring it was. Welcome to the club, thought I.
Their comments are instructive, though. I was a Silverstone last year at the exit of Stowe. I am certain that for the first 75% of the race they were coasting between Stowe and Vale. It was only after a few laps of the safety car that they started to race, presumably as they had enough fuel to get to the end.
Bringing back refuelling would make the sport interesting again. I'd also like to see a return to competitive tyres, but that can become the dominant factor.
It would be interesting to see the Lib Dems think REALLY outside the box and strike a blow for diversity and give a bloke a try - but if that means Ed Davey I guess it's a long shot. Tainted by the past.
Of course it might simply be that CUK-TIG are rubbish at politics.
> On topic:
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> I've gone from having a slight preference for Swinson over Moran - to a position where Swinson would have to do something pretty awful between now and the election to not get my first preference. She just seems the obvious choice to me - now that things are starting to improve for the party it seems the time to build upon success rather than take risks. I wouldn't be unhappy if Moran won but she would be a bit risky.
>
> As I've said upthread, I don't have a strong view for or against any of the three of them. Ed and Jo bring more experience and arguably Ed more than Jo. Layla is the "new kid on the block" and has the virtue of not being tainted with Coalition though in a Party where three quarters of the membership joined AFTER 2015, it's much less important than you might think.
>
> I'll go to the London Hustings with as open a mind as I can manage and see where we go. My one concern is we can't be a one-trick pony for ever and we need to define some of the challenges and solutions facing Britain (whether inside or outside the EU) in the 2020s.
Yes, I'm a member who joined after 2015 myself... but I'm also a member who was attracted to the Liberal Democrats because of the coalition (which switched me from Conservative voter to Lib Dem voter before travelling all the way to Lib Dem member and now activist) so my perspective is a bit different to average.
https://www.twitter.com/JoeMurphyLondon/status/1128223397803110400
Lib Dems should make clear they will not do another coalition with any party at the next election, confidence and supply should be the max.
As for Chuk they should be trying to get them to join the Lib Dems, a couple could be open to it, and maybe after the Euros even Chuka will realise Chuk has no future.
Seems like the coalition punishment is over, people who still go on about the LDs being the tories little helpers were clearly never going to vote for the party anyway. Be like me saying the Tories have lost my vote with this brexit mess - they would never have won it anyway.
Jeez and I'm a pretty extreme remainer...
If you can stomach civilians including women and children being shot indiscriminately then this is a must watch. The brilliant documentary by Olly Lambert 'One Day in Gaza' shown on BBC2 last night
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00052gc/one-day-in-gaza
> https://twitter.com/oxmailnathanb/status/1128225181766496256
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>
>
> The Golden Aspie has written the shrewdest thread header ever, on debut!
Amazing, hope he got plenty on
But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish.
> Amazing, hope he got plenty on
On what? Ed Davey? He's put Swinson at 60-65% so that's hardly a case for lumping on at 1/2!
> Mr. 86, I'd also like to see refuelling return (not least because I have fond memories of the F1 Mole pointing out that qualifying performances indicating fuel weights could mean the grid and the final result weren't too similar, leading to some splendid bets in 2009).
>
> But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish.
Yes, Martin Brundle used to moan about not seeing cars in full quali trim, but I quite liked the years when the Top 10 had to nominate their fuel before Q3.
> > @GIN1138 said:
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> > > @isam said:
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> > > > @isam said:
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> > > > https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1128219997183062016
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> > > "We're Out" !!!!
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> > > "We're Not Out" !!!
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> > > There is such a treasure trove of Remain politicians saying there wouldn’t be a 2nd referendum and that it would be disrespectful to campaign for one etc, that The Brexit Party won’t be able to use it all in time.
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> >
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> And there are plenty of examples of Leave politicians saying in 2016 saying the precise opposite of what they are saying now.
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> Intelligent people change their minds when the facts change. We know a lot more about what withdrawal from the EU means in practice than we did (well me, anyway) in 2016. There is no shame in saying that events have led to a change of mind.
>
> Some intelligent people don't think the facts have changed. In any case, the people who ruled out a second referendum but are now campaigning for one were almost exclusively strong remain advocates in 2016. They always thought what they do now about the rights and wrongs of EU membership, they just knew they wouldn't get elected in 2017 if they said what they really thought about overturning the result, so I wouldn't credit their intelligence too much, its just politicking.
Sure. There is scope for genuine disagreement on this point.
And I accept that some who want a second referendum want it because they think the voters got it wrong the first time.
But believe me or not: that is not my position. I want a second referendum because (a) we now know what withdrawal in practice means which we didn't in 2016; and (b) we need to get proper informed consent to the type of Brexit that is on offer if there is to be any chance of making it work.
In fact, what I want is a pause while we work out what we want to do - Ken Clarke has best described my position - because for all the sound and fury on Brexit over the years it seems to me that Britain still does not have a clue about what sort of relationship it wants with Continental Europe and what sort of role it wants to have in the world.
I have written a number of thread headers on this so will stop there. If anyone is interested they can read those.
I am - I must confess - getting a teensy bit bored with Brexit. There are plenty of other political issues which ought to be aired and discussed and aren't, which is a pity.
Anyway, it looks like being a lovely day so will sign off for now.
> > @Roger said:
> > > @Cyclefree said:
> > > @Roger said:
> > > > > @Cyclefree said:
> > > > > > @Charles said:
> > > > > > > @YBarddCwsc said:
> > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > Her statement was agreed by her ex partner Richard.
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> > > > > > > Citation, please. What did the boyf agree ?
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> > > > > > It is in the first paragraph of her statement:
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> > > > > > https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1109528327453331456
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > “Permission to share our story” sounds like a very precise wording.
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> > > > > > It is NOT an endorsement ... but is intended to sound like one
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> > > > One of the most stupid comments ever made on here. If I could understand the new arrow system I'd know who made it.
> > >
> > > I made it @Roger. I would like the Lib Dems to do well, having just voted for them in the euro elections. I despair of the way Britain is going with people like Farage doing well and the normalisation of anti-semitism and anti-migrant sentiment (as has happened in Hungary - Orban - and in France - with Le Pen) and people like Widdecombe talking rubbish. I do not want this spread here anymore than it has already.
> > >
> > > Not sure what you find stupid about such statements. But each to their own, eh!
> >
> > If the best examples you can find are Hungary and France then you haven't travelled enough if at all.
>
> They were examples not a definitive list let alone the best examples. Still, if that's your idea of the most stupid comment ever made on here, your standards are a bit odd. What upset you? Was it the fact that I mentioned France, a country you are forever praising by comparison with Britain but which has a long history of repulsive Poujadism, anti-semitism and anti-migrant feeling and behaviour?
>
> I have travelled a lot, lived in three countries before I was 11 and speak 4 languages. I am saddened by what is happening in Britain and wish it were otherwise.
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> If you find my comment stupid, you need to look in the mirror.
As I said I find the arrows undecipherable. The comment which I thought stood alone was this which on any reading is beyond hyperbole and actually preposterous.
" I would like the Lib Dems to be a bit more of a force in British politics than they have been in the last 3 years. If I wanted to live in a country where politicians are nasty about Jews and migrants and talked demagogic rubbish to crowds I'd move to France or Hungary".
> I am - I must confess - getting a teensy bit bored with Brexit. There are plenty of other political issues which ought to be aired and discussed and aren't, which is a pity.
>
Not helped by the fact that progress on it, and any sense of urgency to make any, appear to have entirely dried up.
> One of the most stupid comments ever made on here. If I could understand the new arrow system I'd know who made it.
>
> Get yourself over to vanilla, Rog - easy peasy to sort out the quotes.
Even if I understood it it's terrible for dyslexics like me and mine's pretty slight.
>
> Not helped by the fact that progress on it, and any sense of urgency to make any, appear to have entirely dried up.
>
And yet politicians say they need to deliver it urgently... It's surreal.
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1128216024996831233
> > @Cyclefree said:
> > > @Roger said:
> > > > @Cyclefree said:
> > > > @Roger said:
> > > > > > @Cyclefree said:
> > > > > > > @Charles said:
> > > > > > > > @YBarddCwsc said:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > Her statement was agreed by her ex partner Richard.
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> > > > > > > > Citation, please. What did the boyf agree ?
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> > > > > > > It is in the first paragraph of her statement:
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> > > > > > > https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1109528327453331456
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “Permission to share our story” sounds like a very precise wording.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is NOT an endorsement ... but is intended to sound like one
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> > > > > One of the most stupid comments ever made on here. If I could understand the new arrow system I'd know who made it.
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> As I said I find the arrows undecipherable. The comment which I thought stood alone was this which on any reading is beyond hyperbole and actually preposterous.
>
> " I would like the Lib Dems to be a bit more of a force in British politics than they have been in the last 3 years. If I wanted to live in a country where politicians are nasty about Jews and migrants and talked demagogic rubbish to crowds I'd move to France or Hungary".
1. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that I would like the Lib Dems to do better?
2. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that Hungary is a country where the leader (Orban) is nasty about Jews (see his comments about Soros) and migrants and talks demagogic rubbish?
3. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that France is a country where there is a nastiness towards Jews (check out the rate of Jewish emigration from France) and migrants and politicians (Le Pen - a candidate for the Presidency at the last election) talking demagogic rubbish?
4. What is preposterous and hyperbolic about saying that I don't want Britain to be like this?
In your own time, @Roger .....
(edit... I see Cyclefree has posed the same question. But at least I've got rid of most of the indents which so confuse you.)
> > @Pulpstar said:
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> > Amazing, hope he got plenty on
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>
>
> On what? Ed Davey? He's put Swinson at 60-65% so that's hardly a case for lumping on at 1/2!
>
> He or she did rule out Moran though. I didn't actually read any of the header until I saw Moran had pulled out, and just saw the conclusion ruled her out.
Yes. The logic was good but the betting odds / percentages bit thereafter didn't follow.
Can’t see Liberty going for that one though - they’d much rather move further move towards a spec series, nudging the emphasis towards drivers rather than cars. I’m not sure they realised that F1 is primarily a prototype series for constructors.
Incidentally the Brexit Party are knocking it out of the park in terms of election literature and media. It is obviously much easier if you don't have any policies to sell, but impressive nonetheless.
A UK general election manifesto is much more difficult, and they’re not going to start talking about health, education and defence right before the EU elections where those policy areas are meaningless.
This is why Farage and the gang win.
If this new breed of populists demagogues are to be stopped, a lot of people need to stop bickering, bury the hatchet and learn to work together.
> > @Roger said:
> >
> > She slapped her boyfriend and he reported it to the police. Is that what happened?
>
> I don't think we fully know what happened, actually.
>
> My understanding is that "others" reported it to the police.
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> Presumably other Liberal Democrats, as I can't imagine anyone else would be at a tiny Scottish Liberal Democrat conference.
If you'd said you couldn't imagine anyone but a quiche eating sandal wearing Lib Dem reporting it to the police I'd think you might have a point
> > @MarqueeMark said:
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> > Prediction: Moran will stand. And win.
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> >
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> > And be epically awful.
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> Maybe - though I was very unimpressed with Swinson on the Local Elections results programme.
>
> I find it hard to believe either of you would ever be impressed by a Lib Dem leader.
Not true. I was impressed by Charles Kennedy and voted LibDem at the elections of 2001 & 2005. I also had a lot of time for David Steel and Jo Grimond.
So, Moran withdraws just hours after a whole host of pb LibDems assure us there is no problem with the slapping of her boyf !
Curiously, impartial observers of the LibDem scene are more accurate than partial ones !
If the LibDems are still listening, Ed Davey is the walking, talking embodiment of tedium, so they should go for Swinson.
I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
> @Roger and @Cyclefree are essentially on the same side and yet they're arguing.
>
> This is why Farage and the gang win.
>
> If this new breed of populists demagogues are to be stopped, a lot of people need to stop bickering, bury the hatchet and learn to work together.
I blame Vanilla....
> > @isam said:
> > > @Pulpstar said:
> >
> > > Amazing, hope he got plenty on
> >
> >
> >
> > On what? Ed Davey? He's put Swinson at 60-65% so that's hardly a case for lumping on at 1/2!
> >
> > He or she did rule out Moran though. I didn't actually read any of the header until I saw Moran had pulled out, and just saw the conclusion ruled her out.
>
> Yes. The logic was good but the betting odds / percentages bit thereafter didn't follow.
I meant of course hope he got plenty on laying Moran on the exchange
> I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
When you can't decide yourself, other eventually make your decision for you.
A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us.
I did mention that months ago when it first was raised here.
Having heard it from her campaign manager for OxWab and from her herself.
Got a stiff ignoring about it, mind you.
Now I'm a Lib Dem councillor. Which I wouldn't have expected back in 2010, that's for sure.
https://twitter.com/DeptofDefense/status/1127604346227576837
> https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1128184853587951616
> Where do they get these people!always write in the active voice, avoid conditionals and negatives!
> Good advice. Follow it!
> Incidentally the Brexit Party are knocking it out of the park in terms of election literature and media. It is obviously much easier if you don't have any policies to sell, but impressive nonetheless.
Don`t overlook the spending limits. Everything that a party has spent since (I think) January has to be taken into account. Obviously this makes life more difficult for the established parties, who have been campaigning and spending all this time, and their scope is now seriously limited. Much easier for a new party, of which we have two, who have shedloads of money and can spend it all now.
> Well that settles that;
>
> https://www.twitter.com/JoeMurphyLondon/status/1128223397803110400
>
>
>
> Well, that's £2 gone, if turns out to be true.
I agreed with Mark (I think it was) that Moran would probably have won. Having Swinson as leader isn't risk-free but I think it'll work okay. And Moran has put herself in pole position to become leader in 6-8 years' time.
> A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us.
>
> "Us" meaning the Welsh? They'd welcome you with open arms.
Brexit Chaos is the best chance for Welsh independence.
The Scots have to leave first.
Welsh Labour need to be confronted with the idea of being stuck in an abusive marriage with Jacob Rees-Mogg -- I suspect they may then find divorce more attractive.
> Sure. There is scope for genuine disagreement on this point.
>
>
>
> And I accept that some who want a second referendum want it because they think the voters got it wrong the first time.
>
>
>
> But believe me or not: that is not my position. I want a second referendum because (a) we now know what withdrawal in practice means which we didn't in 2016; and (b) we need to get proper informed consent to the type of Brexit that is on offer if there is to be any chance of making it work.
>
>
>
> In fact, what I want is a pause while we work out what we want to do - Ken Clarke has best described my position - because for all the sound and fury on Brexit over the years it seems to me that Britain still does not have a clue about what sort of relationship it wants with Continental Europe and what sort of role it wants to have in the world.
>
>
>
> I have written a number of thread headers on this so will stop there. If anyone is interested they can read those.
>
>
>
> I am - I must confess - getting a teensy bit bored with Brexit. There are plenty of other political issues which ought to be aired and discussed and aren't, which is a pity.
>
>
>
> Anyway, it looks like being a lovely day so will sign off for now.
>
> I wasn't arguing that you shouldn't change your mind, nor anyone else. I just dont believe that the politicians campaigning for a 2nd referendum HAVE changed their mind, they just lied about respecting the vote at the 2017 GE, and are telling the truth now.
It is almost certain some politicians did "lie"/play politics in talking about respecting the vote and then told the truth about wanting a 2nd ref when it became politically expedient.
It is also true others would have been happy to respect the referendum at the time they said it but the behaviour of the ERG opened up a massive political opportunity for the Labour party which they have taken advantage of.
There it will be at least a third group, who were happy to respect the referendum at the time, and would have been happy to respect a brexit that was delivered with confidence, consent and good leadership, but are not happy to support either Mays brexit (because it has so little support in the country more than anything intrinsically wrong with it), or no deal Brexit which would be madness and in most peoples opinion would not respect the referendum vote either.
There are probably other reasons for switching too, not all of them are just liars, for people who are not obsessed on brexit other things matter too. Every day the obsessives on both sides seek to explain behaviour purely by leave/remain when it will always be more complex than that.
"We're Offa!" or suchlike. Hmm.
That said, I don't think Wales leaving the UK would be good for anyone.
> I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
It would be a good thing if they did.
> > @williamglenn said:
> > A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us.
> >
> > "Us" meaning the Welsh? They'd welcome you with open arms.
>
> Brexit Chaos is the best chance for Welsh independence.
>
> The Scots have to leave first.
>
> Welsh Labour need to be confronted with the idea of being stuck in an abusive marriage with Jacob Rees-Mogg -- I suspect they may then find divorce more attractive.
I'd think it possible that Welsh Labour would follow the SLab route, they'll shrink and calcify into a rump battling the other Unionist parties for the 'more Unionist than the most Unionist thing you can think of' title, while trying out various leaders on for size. I'd love to be proved wrong, mind.
Sounds like an old Bernard Manning joke
It's so obvious the hapless Liberals will probably do the opposite.
There really is no helping the Liberals – this is the outfit that chose Vince Cable last time.
Oh dear.
https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1128214093104599041
> On topic:
>
> Finger on the pulse as always!
If this is non-trolling and courteous I'd hate to see you when you think you're doing the opposite.
More seriously, Farage will soon find out why parties have layers of policy making, and no doubt will allow his own personal veto.
> On topic:
>
> There really is no helping the Liberals – this is the outfit that chose Vince Cable last time.
>
> Oh dear.
I don't think this is merited given their performance in the locals. They're on something of a resurgence at the moment, with a very clear message that appears to be striking a chord. To that extent, Vince Cable is doing just fine.
The re-emergence of the LibDems really is quite remarkable. I think many of us had assumed they would be out for a generation, like Major's 1992-7 Tories or Callaghan's Labour 1979. But they've bounced back in a handful of years. I guess Brexit has wiped the slates clean? Student fees was bad news, but a nano-scale measure compared to the Brexit disaster for both Conservatives and Labour.
Bollox to Brexit was a complete masterstroke.
>
>
> If this is non-trolling and courteous I'd hate to see you when you think you're doing the opposite.
>
> Light hearted pointing out that the comment is out of date. Untwist thy knickers
When to stop digging the hole, Isam ...
Bollx to Brexit will run and run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlTggc0uBA8
> https://twitter.com/jaycee1001/status/1128250800424259584
>
>
>
> So bring back hanging, the birch, no more foreign aid, ties at the theatre, return to predecimal coinage etc etc.
>
> More seriously, Farage will soon find out why parties have layers of policy making, and no doubt will allow his own personal veto.
"Prison for strikers, bring back the cat. Throw out the n*ggers, how about that?" as Philip Larkin said.
> > @Blue_rog said:
> > I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians.
> >
> > I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
>
> When you can't decide yourself, other eventually make your decision for you.
>
> A Brexit Party win in the Euors and in the Posh by-election might be enough to confirm to the EU that they're better off without us.
_________________________________________________________________
It's the percentage vote that counts. If the 6M would get out and vote, that's 50% of the 2014 turnout, even before the less enthustiastic voters appear.
Now that the shock of 2016 has apparently given the UK its first ever pro-EU movement, * they know what to do on 23 May. Some may of course vote Tory or Labour and deny CUK/Green/LD/PC/SNP a vote.
On 23 March in London, there were large Momentum for EU and Tories for EU banners. I can't remember ever seeing the right and left supporting the same cause before. Maybe those people are tribally loyal?
* I think there was a European federalist movement led by the Liberal party in the 1940s, but that's way before my time.
> I wonder if the EU are completing their preparations for a no deal Brexit and looking over the channel in amazement at the complacency of the British Politicians.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if, come October, they say - "you've had your grace period, now leave!"
As with many things Brexit this comes back to Ireland. There's only so much that they can do to prepare to protect Ireland. If the EU push the UK out it will entail pushing Ireland under the bus. I don't think they will do that.
There is a lot said about the dishonesty of politicians (Leave and Remain), or the unreasonableness of EU negotiators, but ultimately Brexit circles round, time and again, to Ireland.
1. We voted to Leave to take back control.
2. For the sake of peace in Ireland we can't impose a border between NI and the Republic, or between NI and GB.
3. So we have to remain bound by the rules of the Single Market and Customs Union to a substantial extent.
4. But as we won't be a member of the EU, we would have no say in those rules.
5. So looks like leaving would involve giving away control.
6. Maybe we should remain after all.
Now I reckon that there is a Brexit somewhere in the middle where we lose control on some things - like setting the rules of the Single Market - but we gain control over some others - like Immigration, Fisheries and Agriculture. Norway is relatively happy with a broadly similar trade-off. I'd rather stay in, but I could see some people willing to exchange control over some things in return for more control over others.
No-one told Leavers during the referendum campaign, or since, that they might have to compromise and prioritise. Britain's history means that we have lots of entanglements with other countries. We can't just walk away from them and pretend that they don't exist. We would cease to be a country to be taken seriously.
>
> Don’t start petty personal squabbles please
A colleague of mine once, wisely, pointed out that those most apt to critique others are least able to take it. You frequently dish out snide one-line comments, which is why you fall out with so many on here. I expect there will be another one-liner back, but perhaps you might listen for once.
Anyway, back to the politics ... the LibDems are doing remarkably well considering where they started from in the polls. I think they will pull into the 20's next week, which is where I suspect the BP to finish.
I just wonder, completely crazy though this may appear, whether it's worth a bob or two (no more) on the idea that they could surprise the Brexit Party ... probably not but I just have a hunch.
I see there is something called the Independent Network.
>
> Brexit will be the gift that keeps giving for LDs. Unless there is some kind of once in a thousand year miracle and Jezza finally gets persuaded to go for a 2nd vote.
>
> Bollx to Brexit will run and run.
I think that's absolutely right.
The hard fact is that Brexit, in whatever form, is an almighty cock-up. It will continue to be whatever happens, for the next decade.
So, as you say, it's the gift for the LDs that will keep on giving.
> @Roger and @Cyclefree are essentially on the same side and yet they're arguing.
>
> This is why Farage and the gang win.
>
> If this new breed of populists demagogues are to be stopped, a lot of people need to stop bickering, bury the hatchet and learn to work together.
What's needed is a compelling alternative vision. Pretty much the worst way to go about that is to insist on something which everyone can agree on
> Mr. 86, I'd also like to see refuelling return (not least because I have fond memories of the F1 Mole pointing out that qualifying performances indicating fuel weights could mean the grid and the final result weren't too similar, leading to some splendid bets in 2009).
>
> But I don't think it's on the agenda. Fuel-saving and cruising around is rubbish.
>
> A better idea would be to scrap the fuel flow restrictions, and let the drivers decide to turn up or down their engines, with limited fuel per race and reliability penalties as now. Would lead to more overtaking, the occasional driver running out of fuel on the last lap having misjudged it, and teams adopting a strategy of deliberately using more engines across a season but running them faster. More variation in other words.
>
> Scrapping fuel flow limits would make every race a hyper-miling festival chasing maximum fuel economy until 5 laps to go when it would become a destruction derby due to massive differences in speed. The fuel flow restriction means that the F/A map can only keep the engine in stoich up to about 3.5 bar of boost. Even they didn't have the FF restriction then there would have to be a boost limit which would be more or less them same thing but implemented in way that's less attractive to the power unit constructors. FFR makes them chase efficiency gains all over the powertrain which makes it easier for them to justify going F1 racing to the briefcase wankers.
Get rid of some of the aero is what's needed (and which might just happen).
Zandvoort should be an absolute hoot for qualifying next year, particularly if they do bank that last corner:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/05/14/how-zandvoort-will-change-to-host-its-first-f1-race-for-35-years/
Decent racing there will probably only happen with the regulation changes.
> https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1128258417733316608
Corbyn will see some justification for his Brexit fudge there, on those numbers Labour could scrape a majority despite only matching Kinnock's 1992 voteshare as more Tory voters are defecting to the Brexit Party than Labour voters are defecting to the LDs
https://twitter.com/Kantar/status/1128258120340447233