[Sunil utters a cough that sounds suspiciously like "1988 Bruges Speech"]
I just read the Bruges speech in full. It seems to me that years of selective quoting from it have given it a much more anti-EU reputation than it deserves. This line stood out in particular: "Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community."
Also, with respect to isam’s comment about enlargement:
“We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, people who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities.”
She didn't seem so keen on the EU over the EC
"The Maastricht Rebels were British members of Parliament (MPs) belonging to the then governing Conservative Party who refused to support the government of Prime Minister John Major in a series of votes in the House of Commons on the issue of the implementation of the Maastricht Treaty (Treaty on European Union) in British law.
The Maastricht Rebellion was a major event in the life of John Major's troubled second term as Prime Minister (1992–1997). Major's party had a small majority, thus giving the relatively small number of rebels disproportionate influence: for example, there were 22 rebels on the second reading of the European Communities (Amendment) Bill in May 1992, and the government's majority at the time was only 18.
[Sunil utters a cough that sounds suspiciously like "1988 Bruges Speech"]
I just read the Bruges speech in full. It seems to me that years of selective quoting from it have given it a much more anti-EU reputation than it deserves. This line stood out in particular: "Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community."
Also, with respect to isam’s comment about enlargement:
“We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, people who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities.”
She didn't seem so keen on the EU over the EC
"The Maastricht Rebels were British members of Parliament (MPs) belonging to the then governing Conservative Party who refused to support the government of Prime Minister John Major in a series of votes in the House of Commons on the issue of the implementation of the Maastricht Treaty (Treaty on European Union) in British law.
The Maastricht Rebellion was a major event in the life of John Major's troubled second term as Prime Minister (1992–1997). Major's party had a small majority, thus giving the relatively small number of rebels disproportionate influence: for example, there were 22 rebels on the second reading of the European Communities (Amendment) Bill in May 1992, and the government's majority at the time was only 18.
[Sunil utters a cough that sounds suspiciously like "1988 Bruges Speech"]
I just read the Bruges speech in full. It seems to me that years of selective quoting from it have given it a much more anti-EU reputation than it deserves. This line stood out in particular: "Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community."
Also, with respect to isam’s comment about enlargement:
“We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, people who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities.”
"“The Community is not an end in itself. Nor is it an institutional device to be constantly modified according to the dictates of some abstract intellectual concept. Nor must it be ossified by endless regulation. The European Community is a practical means by which Europe can ensure the future prosperity and security of its people in a world in which there are many other powerful nations and groups of nations. We Europeans cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates.”"
If we "cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates", you must be very disappointed that your vote for Brexit means we in the UK are doing nothing but that.
“Working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy”.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
“It is the same with frontiers between our countries. Of course, we want to make it easier for goods to pass through frontiers. Of course, we must make it easier for people to travel throughout the Community. But it is a matter of plain common sense that we cannot totally abolish frontier controls if we are also to protect our citizens from crime and stop the movement of drugs, of terrorists and of illegal immigrants.” - Maggie, Bruges, '88.
[Sunil utters a cough that sounds suspiciously like "1988 Bruges Speech"]
I just read the Bruges speech in full. It seems to me that years of selective quoting from it have given it a much more anti-EU reputation than it deserves. This line stood out in particular: "Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community."
Also, with respect to isam’s comment about enlargement:
“We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, people who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities.”
"“The Community is not an end in itself. Nor is it an institutional device to be constantly modified according to the dictates of some abstract intellectual concept. Nor must it be ossified by endless regulation. The European Community is a practical means by which Europe can ensure the future prosperity and security of its people in a world in which there are many other powerful nations and groups of nations. We Europeans cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates.”"
If we "cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates", you must be very disappointed that your vote for Brexit means we in the UK are doing nothing but that.
“Working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy”.
Try using your own words. The same speech unequivocally says that we should be in the Community, with its Commission, Parliament and Court.
Just an observation but should not someone found guilty of a crime involving their position as an MP - as in the case of Chris Davies - as opposed to a crime not involving their position as an MP, be an automatic by election rather than just a recall? I know that is not the case legally at the moment but I am arguing that it should be.
I'm reasonably happy with requiring a successful petition. The choice is in the hands of the electorate either way.
Also, with respect to isam’s comment about enlargement:
“We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, people who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities.”
She didn't seem so keen on the EU over the EC
"The Maastricht Rebels were British members of Parliament (MPs) belonging to the then governing Conservative Party who refused to support the government of Prime Minister John Major in a series of votes in the House of Commons on the issue of the implementation of the Maastricht Treaty (Treaty on European Union) in British law.
The Maastricht Rebellion was a major event in the life of John Major's troubled second term as Prime Minister (1992–1997). Major's party had a small majority, thus giving the relatively small number of rebels disproportionate influence: for example, there were 22 rebels on the second reading of the European Communities (Amendment) Bill in May 1992, and the government's majority at the time was only 18.
I prefer to do her the honour of judging her on her record when she was ascendant, not in a state of embittered decline and losing her marbles.
She still seemed to have her marbles making this speech to the HoL just over a year after the 92 election,
"Finally, the referendum. No elector in this country has been able to vote against Maastricht—none. It has been impossible to do so. I think that when one looks at the extent of the powers which are being handed over, it would be disgraceful if we denied them that opportunity. Yes, we waited with bated breath for both Danish referenda. They thought that people were bullied out of their first decision. So much for the unanimity rule.
Further, in the other place less than half the honourable Members voted for the treaty. The electorate has not been able to vote and half the honourable Members in the other place—less than half; 292 out of some 650—voted for the treaty. We are in the Rome Treaty and in the Single European Act and we stay there. I believe that to hand over the people's parliamentary rights on the scale of the Maastricht Treaty without the consent of the people in a referendum would be to betray the trust—as guardians of the parliamentary institutions, of the courts and of the constitution—that they have placed in us." https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/108314
Is anyone else struck by how little the government has progressed Brexit since the flextension. They have said/done nothing. Feels more like they are broken than a plan behind the scenes. Worrying.
What could they do that has any chance of working?
Re-enact the battle of Winterfell, climb to the top of the Shard then throw themselves off whilst screaming "For the Watch!". It has very little chance of success but more than their current ostrich approach and we could stream it live on YouTube. I'll set up the Patreon page...
She still seemed to have her marbles making this speech to the HoL just over a year after the 92 election,
"Finally, the referendum. No elector in this country has been able to vote against Maastricht—none. It has been impossible to do so. I think that when one looks at the extent of the powers which are being handed over, it would be disgraceful if we denied them that opportunity. Yes, we waited with bated breath for both Danish referenda. They thought that people were bullied out of their first decision. So much for the unanimity rule.
Further, in the other place less than half the honourable Members voted for the treaty. The electorate has not been able to vote and half the honourable Members in the other place—less than half; 292 out of some 650—voted for the treaty. We are in the Rome Treaty and in the Single European Act and we stay there. I believe that to hand over the people's parliamentary rights on the scale of the Maastricht Treaty without the consent of the people in a referendum would be to betray the trust—as guardians of the parliamentary institutions, of the courts and of the constitution—that they have placed in us." https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/108314
With hindsight we should have had a referendum on Maastricht. Thatcher would inevitably have become the figurehead of the No campaign, and her losing would have drawn a line under her era and avoided much of the toxicity that followed.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
But the EU elections are widely seen in a pretty frivolous light - only the obsessives take them seriously. People are likely to be taking an exaggereated view as to how far any BP momentum would extend to a parliamentary by election. This week's Local Elections might well provide a better guide.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
But the EU elections are widely seen in a pretty frivolous light - only the obsessives take them seriously. People are likely to be taking an exaggereated view as to how far any BP momentum would extend to a parliamentary by election. This week's Local Elections might well provide a better guide.
"only the obsessives take them seriously" - pretty sure that goes for the locals too
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
But the EU elections are widely seen in a pretty frivolous light - only the obsessives take them seriously. People are likely to be taking an exaggereated view as to how far any BP momentum would extend to a parliamentary by election. This week's Local Elections might well provide a better guide.
It depends whether a Brexit victory in the Euros generates a bandwagon effect.
UKIP did not very well in Newark after the 2014 Euros, but extremely well in Heywood & Middleton. Clacton and Rochester were obviously special cases.
17% is still a good score in London, it might win them two seats.
19% for Brexit is not so surprising. A large minority of Londoners did vote to Leave.
A further 3% sit with UKIP.
If Corbyn remains on the same path to leave, is it conceivable that Labour could finish behind either or both of Change UK and the Brexit Party in London?
Just an observation but should not someone found guilty of a crime involving their position as an MP - as in the case of Chris Davies - as opposed to a crime not involving their position as an MP, be an automatic by election rather than just a recall? I know that is not the case legally at the moment but I am arguing that it should be.
Also as a matter of interest is an MP still able to choose to be tried in Parliament rather than in a normal criminal court? Or was that done away with?
I was once involved in a criminal case involving an election (I hasten to add as a witness!). It became apparent that if you commit a crime to improve your chances of getting elected, but it is not defined under election law it does not impact your election. So to take the extreme, if you canvas and murder everyone who says they won't vote for your candidate the election stands. Obviously if your a candidate and are committing the homicides it will probably get covered by the greater than 12 months prison sentence
In the case I refer to the crime was fraud and it wasn't committed by the candidates or agent (and who were genuinely unaware), but was to enhance the prospect of the candidates being elected.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
But the EU elections are widely seen in a pretty frivolous light - only the obsessives take them seriously. People are likely to be taking an exaggereated view as to how far any BP momentum would extend to a parliamentary by election. This week's Local Elections might well provide a better guide.
They used to be, when no one was interested in our relationship with the EU. Things might have changed.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
Powys voted 53% Leave
I could see BP winning Brecon as well. At the moment, it seems to form a home for two types (1) those genuinely wanting a harder form of Brexit and (2) those wanting to give both political parties a kick up the backside (and who are not virulently pro-Remain). I suspect in both those seats, especially given voter fragmentation, there would be enough of (1) + (2) combine to push BP over the line.
There is no way a Farage-led party will win Brecon & Radnor.
I have typed and retyped about five paragraphs trying to explain this but... no. Go there. Meet the people. They are not voting Farage any time in the next 100 years. He would get some votes in the poorer parts of Llandod and one or two of the more struggling farmers and that is it.
Indeed so - the Brexit Party is far too vulgar for Brecon & Radnor.
17% is still a good score in London, it might win them two seats.
19% for Brexit is not so surprising. A large minority of Londoners did vote to Leave.
A further 3% sit with UKIP.
If Corbyn remains on the same path to leave, is it conceivable that Labour could finish behind either or both of Change UK and the Brexit Party in London?
I think the Labour vote in London is pretty solid. It's a mostly left wing city (and in places, very left wing).
[Sunil utters a cough that sounds suspiciously like "1988 Bruges Speech"]
I just read the Bruges speech in full. It seems to me that years of selective quoting from it have given it a much more anti-EU reputation than it deserves. This line stood out in particular: "Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community."
Also, with respect to isam’s comment about enlargement:
“We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, people who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities.”
"“The Community is not an end in itself. Nor is it an institutional device to be constantly modified according to the dictates of some abstract intellectual concept. Nor must it be ossified by endless regulation. The European Community is a practical means by which Europe can ensure the future prosperity and security of its people in a world in which there are many other powerful nations and groups of nations. We Europeans cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates.”"
If we "cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates", you must be very disappointed that your vote for Brexit means we in the UK are doing nothing but that.
“Working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy”.
Try using your own words. The same speech unequivocally says that we should be in the Community, with its Commission, Parliament and Court.
“It is the same with frontiers between our countries. Of course, we want to make it easier for goods to pass through frontiers. Of course, we must make it easier for people to travel throughout the Community. But it is a matter of plain common sense that we cannot totally abolish frontier controls if we are also to protect our citizens from crime and stop the movement of drugs, of terrorists and of illegal immigrants.” - Maggie, Bruges, '88.
17% is still a good score in London, it might win them two seats.
19% for Brexit is not so surprising. A large minority of Londoners did vote to Leave.
A further 3% sit with UKIP.
If Corbyn remains on the same path to leave, is it conceivable that Labour could finish behind either or both of Change UK and the Brexit Party in London?
I think the Labour vote in London is pretty solid. It's a mostly left wing city (and in places, very left wing).
Change UK will probably do best in the southwest and Muesli Hill/Hornsey I'd have thought...
Is anyone else struck by how little the government has progressed Brexit since the flextension. They have said/done nothing. Feels more like they are broken than a plan behind the scenes. Worrying.
What could they do that has any chance of working?
Re-enact the battle of Winterfell, climb to the top of the Shard then throw themselves off whilst screaming "For the Watch!". It has very little chance of success but more than their current ostrich approach and we could stream it live on YouTube. I'll set up the Patreon page...
Not watched episode 3 yet - so if that's a spoiler, thanks.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Is anyone else struck by how little the government has progressed Brexit since the flextension. They have said/done nothing. Feels more like they are broken than a plan behind the scenes. Worrying.
What could they do that has any chance of working?
Re-enact the battle of Winterfell, climb to the top of the Shard then throw themselves off whilst screaming "For the Watch!". It has very little chance of success but more than their current ostrich approach and we could stream it live on YouTube. I'll set up the Patreon page...
Not watched episode 3 yet - so if that's a spoiler, thanks.
It's not! There are far worse things to spoil, like [self-censored]
17% is still a good score in London, it might win them two seats.
19% for Brexit is not so surprising. A large minority of Londoners did vote to Leave.
A further 3% sit with UKIP.
If Corbyn remains on the same path to leave, is it conceivable that Labour could finish behind either or both of Change UK and the Brexit Party in London?
I think the Labour vote in London is pretty solid. It's a mostly left wing city (and in places, very left wing).
Change UK will probably do best in the southwest and Muesli Hill/Hornsey I'd have thought...
Certainly, SW London. But, they seem to do well with the kinds of people who'd vote Free Democrat in Germany, as well as middle class trendies, so they could do well in places like Barnet. Stanmore, and Ruislip as well.
Is anyone else struck by how little the government has progressed Brexit since the flextension. They have said/done nothing. Feels more like they are broken than a plan behind the scenes. Worrying.
What could they do that has any chance of working?
Re-enact the battle of Winterfell, climb to the top of the Shard then throw themselves off whilst screaming "For the Watch!". It has very little chance of success but more than their current ostrich approach and we could stream it live on YouTube. I'll set up the Patreon page...
Not watched episode 3 yet - so if that's a spoiler, thanks.
It's not! There are far worse things to spoil, like [self-censored]
Like the bit where Jon Snow has to sacrifice Sansa to the Lord of Light.
It may be sinister-looking but surely press officers or whatever they are called these days are hardly new, and Bernard Ingham or Peter Mandelson would often be lurking just off-camera when Thatcher or Blair were on.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Do you think the working class started voting UKIP because they were unhappy with treaties no one has ever heard of, or because they didn’t like mass immigration?
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Do you think the working class started voting UKIP because they were unhappy with treaties no one has ever heard of, or because they didn’t like mass immigration?
There's a big difference between 4 million and 17 million. Not everyone who voted for Brexit agrees with you.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Do you think the working class started voting UKIP because they were unhappy with treaties no one has ever heard of, or because they didn’t like mass immigration?
If "working class people started voting UKIP" to stop immigration they really are and were lacking the vital education that, say, an alumnus of UCS and Exeter University possesses.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
Powys voted 53% Leave
I could see BP winning Brecon as well. At the moment, it seems to form a home for two types (1) those genuinely wanting a harder form of Brexit and (2) those wanting to give both political parties a kick up the backside (and who are not virulently pro-Remain). I suspect in both those seats, especially given voter fragmentation, there would be enough of (1) + (2) combine to push BP over the line.
There is no way a Farage-led party will win Brecon & Radnor.
I have typed and retyped about five paragraphs trying to explain this but... no. Go there. Meet the people. They are not voting Farage any time in the next 100 years. He would get some votes in the poorer parts of Llandod and one or two of the more struggling farmers and that is it.
Indeed so - the Brexit Party is far too vulgar for Brecon & Radnor.
It's just more ill-informed breathless hype from HY. If there was anything in his wild predictions Boris would be several years into office as PM by now.
Is anyone else struck by how little the government has progressed Brexit since the flextension. They have said/done nothing. Feels more like they are broken than a plan behind the scenes. Worrying.
What could they do that has any chance of working?
Re-enact the battle of Winterfell, climb to the top of the Shard then throw themselves off whilst screaming "For the Watch!". It has very little chance of success but more than their current ostrich approach and we could stream it live on YouTube. I'll set up the Patreon page...
Not watched episode 3 yet - so if that's a spoiler, thanks.
It's not a spoiler and I'm fairly sure the Shard is not in GoT. However I can tell you that the Night King snaps his fingers and 50% of the cast drop dead.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Do you think the working class started voting UKIP because they were unhappy with treaties no one has ever heard of, or because they didn’t like mass immigration?
There's a big difference between 4 million and 17 million. Not everyone who voted for Brexit agrees with you.
You’re right, there are some other words there too
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
But the EU elections are widely seen in a pretty frivolous light - only the obsessives take them seriously. People are likely to be taking an exaggereated view as to how far any BP momentum would extend to a parliamentary by election. This week's Local Elections might well provide a better guide.
"only the obsessives take them seriously" - pretty sure that goes for the locals too
To a lesser extent though. Post 1999 the EU elections were held on the same day as Local Elections in an effort to boost the turnout for the former.
She still seemed to have her marbles making this speech to the HoL just over a year after the 92 election,
"Finally, the referendum. No elector in this country has been able to vote against Maastricht—none. It has been impossible to do so. I think that when one looks at the extent of the powers which are being handed over, it would be disgraceful if we denied them that opportunity. Yes, we waited with bated breath for both Danish referenda. They thought that people were bullied out of their first decision. So much for the unanimity rule.
Further, in the other place less than half the honourable Members voted for the treaty. The electorate has not been able to vote and half the honourable Members in the other place—less than half; 292 out of some 650—voted for the treaty. We are in the Rome Treaty and in the Single European Act and we stay there. I believe that to hand over the people's parliamentary rights on the scale of the Maastricht Treaty without the consent of the people in a referendum would be to betray the trust—as guardians of the parliamentary institutions, of the courts and of the constitution—that they have placed in us." https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/108314
With hindsight we should have had a referendum on Maastricht. Thatcher would inevitably have become the figurehead of the No campaign, and her losing would have drawn a line under her era and avoided much of the toxicity that followed.
"Indeed, it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels."
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
No it's not but why kick the dog by leaving the EU? If you don't like (too many) foreigners that is a position to hold. But it was transparently obvious that the EU was not the cause of your problems (not yours, P_t_P).
The UK has for many years had a sort of open door policy regarding immigration, charitably that might be because they wanted to force Brits up the value chain of employment but who knows and the fact is that successive governments have chosen not to implement many of the immigration restrictions that were available to it. Quite why anyone thought that leaving the EU would solve this problem goodness only knows.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
Powys voted 53% Leave
I could see BP winning Brecon as well. At the moment, it seems to form a home for two types (1) those genuinely wanting a harder form of Brexit and (2) those wanting to give both political parties a kick up the backside (and who are not virulently pro-Remain). I suspect in both those seats, especially given voter fragmentation, there would be enough of (1) + (2) combine to push BP over the line.
There is no way a Farage-led party will win Brecon & Radnor.
I have typed and retyped about five paragraphs trying to explain this but... no. Go there. Meet the people. They are not voting Farage any time in the next 100 years. He would get some votes in the poorer parts of Llandod and one or two of the more struggling farmers and that is it.
Indeed so - the Brexit Party is far too vulgar for Brecon & Radnor.
It's just more ill-informed breathless hype from HY. If there was anything in his wild predictions Boris would be several years into office as PM by now.
Rubbish, Powys voted 53% Leave and the Brexit Party have every chance of winning Brecon if we are still in the EU by the date of any by election.
I have also always claimed Boris will only take over once the Deal ultimately gets through
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
But the EU elections are widely seen in a pretty frivolous light - only the obsessives take them seriously. People are likely to be taking an exaggereated view as to how far any BP momentum would extend to a parliamentary by election. This week's Local Elections might well provide a better guide.
They won't as less than 20% of seats have a BP or UKIP candidate
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
Is anyone else struck by how little the government has progressed Brexit since the flextension. They have said/done nothing. Feels more like they are broken than a plan behind the scenes. Worrying.
What could they do that has any chance of working?
Re-enact the battle of Winterfell, climb to the top of the Shard then throw themselves off whilst screaming "For the Watch!". It has very little chance of success but more than their current ostrich approach and we could stream it live on YouTube. I'll set up the Patreon page...
Not watched episode 3 yet - so if that's a spoiler, thanks.
It's not a spoiler and I'm fairly sure the Shard is not in GoT. However I can tell you that the Night King snaps his fingers and 50% of the cast drop dead.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
The quandary revolves more around what to do about it. People who are against immigration may not be happy with the current outcome of immigration continuing, just slower and from different countries. People who wanted sovereignty may not be happy with the current outcome of increased sovereignty but constrained by logistics and the strength of others. People who hate the EU may not be happy with the current outcome of continuing to trade with the EU. I don't know where that's going to end up
There's a big difference between 4 million and 17 million. Not everyone who voted for Brexit agrees with you.
If only one could port into each and every one of those 17m heads, just for a moment, just long enough to get a feel for what's going on in there, and then back to safety.
The Vox Pops with Leavers indicate that the motivation for their vote was a belief that 'we' are being bossed around by 'them', or that 'we' are being neglected in favour of 'them' - the nature of the 'we' and the 'them' varying depending on the individual.
17% is still a good score in London, it might win them two seats.
19% for Brexit is not so surprising. A large minority of Londoners did vote to Leave.
A further 3% sit with UKIP.
If Corbyn remains on the same path to leave, is it conceivable that Labour could finish behind either or both of Change UK and the Brexit Party in London?
I think the Labour vote in London is pretty solid. It's a mostly left wing city (and in places, very left wing).
Change UK will probably do best in the southwest and Muesli Hill/Hornsey I'd have thought...
Certainly, SW London. But, they seem to do well with the kinds of people who'd vote Free Democrat in Germany, as well as middle class trendies, so they could do well in places like Barnet. Stanmore, and Ruislip as well.
I’m surprised that anyone can vote change or brexit when they don’t have a clue what the stand for beyond in or out.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
If only everyone would fuck off back to the land of their birth, eh?
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Indeed and the polls show that a significant minority of Leave voters thought the same way I did on this issue. That poll showing 42% support amongst leavers for an EEA Brexit even though it meant retaining freedom of movement shows that Immigration was not the issue with a good percentage of leave voters.
And (thankfully) you are absolutely right on the question of migration from elsewhere. The pull factors (which I would actually call lasso and drag in factors as we need them so badly) are extremely strong.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
No it's not but why kick the dog by leaving the EU? If you don't like (too many) foreigners that is a position to hold. But it was transparently obvious that the EU was not the cause of your problems (not yours, P_t_P).
The UK has for many years had a sort of open door policy regarding immigration, charitably that might be because they wanted to force Brits up the value chain of employment but who knows and the fact is that successive governments have chosen not to implement many of the immigration restrictions that were available to it. Quite why anyone thought that leaving the EU would solve this problem goodness only knows.
The reason I would hazard was MPs just wanted to ignore the impact of immigration. They started by ignoring any of the reasonable people who said we need to have a look at this, then by demonising them in the ususal slurry way we have seen in the campaign ( eveyone is swivel eyed etc ) to the point where people got fed up not being listened to and deserted the so called sensible parties to make themselves heard.
Its not a UK phenomenon either its a Europe wide issue.
It's referring to proposed new Coal Mine in Cumbria that will produce mostly coal for domestic consumption in the Steel Works. The coal is currently imported.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
Sanders is a puzzle. I am red. Every time I think about putting something down on him, I think 'come on, the Dems want to win don't they. Surely they aren't gonna put Bernie up?'
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
“Over a significant period of time, including when we were last in government, politics has failed to find the right balance between diversity and integration,”
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
No it's not but why kick the dog by leaving the EU? If you don't like (too many) foreigners that is a position to hold. But it was transparently obvious that the EU was not the cause of your problems (not yours, P_t_P).
The UK has for many years had a sort of open door policy regarding immigration, charitably that might be because they wanted to force Brits up the value chain of employment but who knows and the fact is that successive governments have chosen not to implement many of the immigration restrictions that were available to it. Quite why anyone thought that leaving the EU would solve this problem goodness only knows.
Didn't Cameron promise to reduce net immigration to the 'tens of thousands' ?
And haven't we been told that EU migration has fallen during the last three years ?
Now perhaps the government has decided that we need to replace Eastern European beggars with African beggars (I very much doubt that recent immigrants are from the higher rungs of the socioeconomic ladder) but that's not the fault of people who voted Leave but the fault of government.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
eable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
O
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
No it's not but why kick the dog by leaving the EU? If you don't like (too many) foreigners that is a position to hold. But it was transparently obvious that the EU was not the cause of your problems (not yours, P_t_P).
The UK has for many years had a sort of open door policy regarding immigration, charitably that might be because they wanted to force Brits up the value chain of employment but who knows and the fact is that successive governments have chosen not to implement many of the immigration restrictions that were available to it. Quite why anyone thought that leaving the EU would solve this problem goodness only knows.
You can see that, I can see that. But we are political anoraks. Joe Public sees it different, and even if he did see it the same, the desire to vote for anybody or anything that took account of his frustration is all too understandable.
Dammit Topping, I nearly voted Leave. Me! Wanna know why? It was because I had had it up to here with an international authority that set up a border 9,000 miles long with scant regard for how it was to be policed. In the end I decided not to kick the dog, and in retrospect, I'm glad but it was a close thing.
Isam could accuse me of hypocrisy, and with some justification. In a sense I let others kick the dog for me in the hope it might teach it a lesson. I still nurture the hope that lessons are being learned. Meanwhile it doesn't become the likes of us to sneer at those who voted Leave. Sure, they included a fair share of thugs and halfwits, chancers and charlatans. Included a lot of decent people too though. We ignore them at our peril.
That article mentions it’s from the Hate not Hope poll which is GB-wide so it’s just a subsample. However that poll had a hefty 5400 sample in total so the 600-odd sample in London might not be too bad.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Indeed and the polls show that a significant minority of Leave voters thought the same way I did on this issue. That poll showing 42% support amongst leavers for an EEA Brexit even though it meant retaining freedom of movement shows that Immigration was not the issue with a good percentage of leave voters.
And (thankfully) you are absolutely right on the question of migration from elsewhere. The pull factors (which I would actually call lasso and drag in factors as we need them so badly) are extremely strong.
Immigration has fallen from the EU since the referendum anyway
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
If only everyone would fuck off back to the land of their birth, eh?
the stupidity of why you lost in a sentence.
Like most leavers I am happy with some level of immigration - we're an immigrant nation - as long as its in a controlled way and matches the needs of the country. If you could just understand that maybe you could start to see a way forward that didnt require petulence every time the issue is raised.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry .
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
No it's not but why kick the dog by leaving the EU? If you don't like (too many) foreigners that is a position to hold. But it was transparently obvious that the EU was not the cause of your problems (not yours, P_t_P).
The UK has for many years had a sort of open door policy regarding immigration, charitably that might be because they wanted to force Brits up the value chain of employment but who knows and the fact is that successive governments have chosen not to implement many of the immigration restrictions that were available to it. Quite why anyone thought that leaving the EU would solve this problem goodness only knows.
The reason I would hazard was MPs just wanted to ignore the impact of immigration. They started by ignoring any of the reasonable people who said we need to have a look at this, then by demonising them in the ususal slurry way we have seen in the campaign ( eveyone is swivel eyed etc ) to the point where people got fed up not being listened to and deserted the so called sensible parties to make themselves heard.
Its not a UK phenomenon either its a Europe wide issue.
I think there is more heat than light about the "impact of immigration". We as a nation evidently believe we need it. As Dr Wollaston so adroitly put it if you go to the NHS you are more likely to see an EU citizen (or other immigrant) treating you than ahead of you in the queue.
Studies have shown there is a very minor effect on per capital GDP and wages.
What is this "impact of immigration" of which you speak? A new Polish supermarket? A mosque?
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Indeed and the polls show that a significant minority of Leave voters thought the same way I did on this issue. That poll showing 42% support amongst leavers for an EEA Brexit even though it meant retaining freedom of movement shows that Immigration was not the issue with a good percentage of leave voters.
And (thankfully) you are absolutely right on the question of migration from elsewhere. The pull factors (which I would actually call lasso and drag in factors as we need them so badly) are extremely strong.
Immigration has fallen from the EU since the referendum anyway
It has. But the main reason for that appears to be the uncertainty and the climate around Brexit rather than any changes in policy etc. I suspect that if Brexit were cancelled the pull factors would see it start to rise again.
It seems like his options are jumping ship to CUK, or lumping it.
Watson will do what he always does, back down and keep shtum until the next new cunning plan. The only people who take him even half way seriously are the media, while there is doubt that the Tiggers will take him in if he decides to walk, even Chukka is not that stupid to have Watson creating havoc in C.UK
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
Nws.
Didn't Cameron promise to reduce net immigration to the 'tens of thousands' ?
And haven't we been told that EU migration has fallen during the last three years ?
Now perhaps the government has decided that we need to replace Eastern European beggars with African beggars (I very much doubt that recent immigrants are from the higher rungs of the socioeconomic ladder) but that's not the fault of people who voted Leave but the fault of government.
The Conservative government which you support.
Yes I agree. It is their fault but doesn't their transparent failure suggest something to you about the way our society is now structured? It certainly tells me something about those who voted leave to get rid of the foreigners only to find, as you note, that it was a swap rather than a disposal.
19% for Brexit Party in London. I didn't realise that there were so many black cab drivers.
More people voted for Brexit in London in 2016 than voted for the new Mayor a few weeks before. The vote was nearly 50 - 50 in some boroughs with large BME majority populations like Newham and Redbridge. Zones 5-6 voted leave.
We hear a lot about the opinions of residents of Islington, Camden and Richmond on Brexit but rarely from those Londoners.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
If only everyone would fuck off back to the land of their birth, eh?
the stupidity of why you lost in a sentence.
Like most leavers I am happy with some level of immigration - we're an immigrant nation - as long as its in a controlled way and matches the needs of the country. If you could just understand that maybe you could start to see a way forward that didnt require petulence every time the issue is raised.
I'm getting a little bit tired of the media over Brexit. In fact, I'm not sure I can remember any other long running story which has contained so many inaccurate, downright false and sometimes deliberately mischievous words pouring out from the media.
Take one of the better ones, Pesto. I reckon about 1/5 of his stories are basically true, 3/5 have some element of truth about them somewhere, and 1/5 are just completely and utterly wrong.
Who would you rank as genuinely reliable? Laura K and Katya Adler seem pretty good but I'd be interested to know.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
If only everyone would fuck off back to the land of their birth, eh?
the stupidity of why you lost in a sentence.
Like most leavers I am happy with some level of immigration - we're an immigrant nation - as long as its in a controlled way and matches the needs of the country. If you could just understand that maybe you could start to see a way forward that didnt require petulence every time the issue is raised.
Yep every leaver I've ever spoken to who wants to control immigration is a huge fan of immigration. Who's to say what is the right level? Who's to say what the "needs of the country" are? You? In Warwickshire? What about the people who lived in your street before you arrived?
But actually those who run the government have decided what the needs of the country are and those needs are for a healthy level of immigration.
But by all means let's vote to leave the EU because that should help*.
Sanders is a puzzle. I am red. Every time I think about putting something down on him, I think 'come on, the Dems want to win don't they. Surely they aren't gonna put Bernie up?'
I thought Sanders a sell this morning - what's his current price ?
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
If only everyone would fuck off back to the land of their birth, eh?
the stupidity of why you lost in a sentence.
Like most leavers I am happy with some level of immigration - we're an immigrant nation - as long as its in a controlled way and matches the needs of the country. If you could just understand that maybe you could start to see a way forward that didnt require petulence every time the issue is raised.
Yep every leaver I've ever spoken to who wants to control immigration is a huge fan of immigration. Who's to say what is the right level? Who's to say what the "needs of the country" are? You? In Warwickshire? What about the people who lived in your street before you arrived?
But actually those who run the government have decided what the needs of the country are and those needs are for a healthy level of immigration.
But by all means let's vote to leave the EU because that should help*.
*It has not helped.
Hold on, I thought Dave was going to get it to the "tens of thousands".
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
Nws.
Didn't Cameron promise to reduce net immigration to the 'tens of thousands' ?
And haven't we been told that EU migration has fallen during the last three years ?
Now perhaps the government has decided that we need to replace Eastern European beggars with African beggars (I very much doubt that recent immigrants are from the higher rungs of the socioeconomic ladder) but that's not the fault of people who voted Leave but the fault of government.
The Conservative government which you support.
Yes I agree. It is their fault but doesn't their transparent failure suggest something to you about the way our society is now structured? It certainly tells me something about those who voted leave to get rid of the foreigners only to find, as you note, that it was a swap rather than a disposal.
So we should blame the voters because the government lied ?
Perhaps you would prefer if the voters stopped voting for the party in government ie the Conservatives.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
If only everyone would fuck off back to the land of their birth, eh?
the stupidity of why you lost in a sentence.
Like most leavers I am happy with some level of immigration - we're an immigrant nation - as long as its in a controlled way and matches the needs of the country. If you could just understand that maybe you could start to see a way forward that didnt require petulence every time the issue is raised.
Didn't play the clips but that French bird in the middle one is for some reason wearing a hijab. Let's vote to leave the EU so we don't have to put up with that sort of thing any more. Oh we have. And oh we still do.
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it wasn't. And what a bunch of incompetents to vote to reduce immigration from one section of the planet when, Maginot Line-like, simply others pop up from other sections of the planet with a(n entirely, absolutely foreseeable) result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
"incompetents"
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
If only everyone would fuck off back to the land of their birth, eh?
the stupidity of why you lost in a sentence.
Like most leavers I am happy with some level of immigration - we're an immigrant nation - as long as its in a controlled way and matches the needs of the country. If you could just understand that maybe you could start to see a way forward that didnt require petulence every time the issue is raised.
Yep every leaver I've ever spoken to who wants to control immigration is a huge fan of immigration. Who's to say what is the right level? Who's to say what the "needs of the country" are? You? In Warwickshire? What about the people who lived in your street before you arrived?
But actually those who run the government have decided what the needs of the country are and those needs are for a healthy level of immigration.
But by all means let's vote to leave the EU because that should help*.
*It has not helped.
Hold on, I thought Dave was going to get it to the "tens of thousands".
Yep what a dolt. PM of the country making ridiculous claims. No excuses. It is not even an excuse to say that it was transparently obviously not achievable, not to say undesirable.
No it's not but why kick the dog by leaving the EU? If you don't like (too many) foreigners that is a position to hold. But it was transparently obvious that the EU was not the cause of your problems (not yours, P_t_P).
The UK has for many years had a sort of open door policy regarding immigration. [snip] The fact is that successive governments have chosen not to implement many of the immigration restrictions that were available to it. Quite why anyone thought that leaving the EU would solve this problem goodness only knows.
You can see that, I can see that. But we are political anoraks. Joe Public sees it different, and even if he did see it the same, the desire to vote for anybody or anything that took account of his frustration is all too understandable.
Dammit Topping, I nearly voted Leave. Me! Wanna know why? It was because I had had it up to here with an international authority that set up a border 9,000 miles long with scant regard for how it was to be policed.
This is a good criticism and the sort of thing that will no doubt have prompted some into voting Leave, either because of the failure of governance Peter identifies or, more frequently I'd think, because of the consequences which became painfully obvious.
Too often the EU tries to create grand projects without putting in place the proper institutional framework to make them robust enough to work in all circumstances (rather than just when things are just ticking along nicely). Only the Single Market and the Euro really have the bodies with the powers needed behind them to make them work.
By contrast, Schengen, while a nice idea in principle, only works in practice if you have a properly policed external border - which given the opportunities for free riding from the likes of Luxembourg or Belgium (hello, Mssrs Juncker and Verhofstadt), puts greatly disproportionate costs and pressure on a small number of states. A single external border requires a common border enforcement mechanism. That doesn't of itself necessarily require a unified European institution, accountable to Brussels (though it might, and it might be the most efficient option); it could mean an agreement to man and fund the border through an agreement enforceable in the CJEU, as circumstances dictate.
Likewise, the castle-in-the-sky idea of a European army only makes sense if it exists to enforce a European foreign policy, has an integrated command structure that doesn't require independent authorisation from national governments, and is funded from EU accounts. For obvious reasons, this hasn't been seriously proposed and until - for example - Irish soldiers can be sent overseas serving under a Polish general (I would say British to make it particularly controversial but Brexit confuses that) to enforce French strategic interests, it shouldn't happen.
A strong leave seat which narrowly elected a labour MP last time and where the leave vote will be split as the Tories might well reduce but not collapse like in the EP elections
No, if we are still in the EU by the by election and with the BP having momentum from likely winning the Euro elections Tory voters will tactically vote BP and if Labour loses a marginal seat it is defending like Peterborough that could terrify enough Labour MPs in Leave seats for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass.
If we are still in the EU by a Brecon by election I would also not rule out the BP wining there too as Brecon and Radnor voted Leave too
Powys voted 53% Leave
I could see BP winning Brecon as well. At the moment, it seems to form a home for two types (1) those genuinely wanting a harder form of Brexit and (2) those wanting to give both political parties a kick up the backside (and who are not virulently pro-Remain). I suspect in both those seats, especially given voter fragmentation, there would be enough of (1) + (2) combine to push BP over the line.
There is no way a Farage-led party will win Brecon & Radnor.
I have typed and retyped about five paragraphs trying to explain this but... no. Go there. Meet the people. They are not voting Farage any time in the next 100 years. He would get some votes in the poorer parts of Llandod and one or two of the more struggling farmers and that is it.
Indeed so - the Brexit Party is far too vulgar for Brecon & Radnor.
It's just more ill-informed breathless hype from HY. If there was anything in his wild predictions Boris would be several years into office as PM by now.
Rubbish, Powys voted 53% Leave and the Brexit Party have every chance of winning Brecon if we are still in the EU by the date of any by election.
I have also always claimed Boris will only take over once the Deal ultimately gets through
Hmm.. it's a Con-LD battleground (LDs actually had it for much of the past 20 years), with UKIP only once getting over 3 per cent in a general election.
I agree a "bad Tory" narrative could scatter the cards in many ways.. but I'm not sure I'd back Farage or his mates there.
(EDIT to add: tend to agree BoJo not keen to take over before the Deal goes through. Or even if he is, enough colleagues aren't keen enough to put him there sooner)
It might have worked before the Berlin wall fell and Communism collapsed
It is working. Look at the rate of economic growth in those countries.
It might have been acceptable to the British public, then
Why do you think the Leave campaign posters didn't show people from eastern Europe on them?
Don’t know, but the reason we had a referendum, then voted to leave, was mass immigration of cheap labour from poor countries
Not for those such as Richard Tyndall it w result of immigration not changing one damn bit.
Or, more generously Topping, it was a cry from the heart from people who felt they'd been ignored and lied to for too long. Some of those people I wouldn't like one bit, but many are salt-of-the-earth types, and when folk like that begin to feel neglected and betrayed, they get mad.
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
Nws.
Didn't Cameron promise to reduce net immigration to the 'tens of thousands' ?
And haven't we been told that EU migration has fallen during the last three years ?
Now perhaps the government has decided that we need to replace Eastern European beggars with African beggars (I very much doubt that recent immigrants are from the higher rungs of the socioeconomic ladder) but that's not the fault of people who voted Leave but the fault of government.
The Conservative government which you support.
Yes I agree. It is their fault but doesn't their transparent failure suggest something to you about the way our society is now structured? It certainly tells me something about those who voted leave to get rid of the foreigners only to find, as you note, that it was a swap rather than a disposal.
So we should blame the voters because the government lied ?
Perhaps you would prefer if the voters stopped voting for the party in government ie the Conservatives.
It is entirely understandable for you to no longer vote for a party that has disappointed you.
Comments
None of Europes politicans have quite got their heads around how that changed things.
19% for Brexit is not so surprising. A large minority of Londoners did vote to Leave.
"Finally, the referendum. No elector in this country has been able to vote against Maastricht—none. It has been impossible to do so. I think that when one looks at the extent of the powers which are being handed over, it would be disgraceful if we denied them that opportunity. Yes, we waited with bated breath for both Danish referenda. They thought that people were bullied out of their first decision. So much for the unanimity rule.
Further, in the other place less than half the honourable Members voted for the treaty. The electorate has not been able to vote and half the honourable Members in the other place—less than half; 292 out of some 650—voted for the treaty. We are in the Rome Treaty and in the Single European Act and we stay there. I believe that to hand over the people's parliamentary rights on the scale of the Maastricht Treaty without the consent of the people in a referendum would be to betray the trust—as guardians of the parliamentary institutions, of the courts and of the constitution—that they have placed in us."
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/108314
UKIP did not very well in Newark after the 2014 Euros, but extremely well in Heywood & Middleton. Clacton and Rochester were obviously special cases.
If Corbyn remains on the same path to leave, is it conceivable that Labour could finish behind either or both of Change UK and the Brexit Party in London?
In the case I refer to the crime was fraud and it wasn't committed by the candidates or agent (and who were genuinely unaware), but was to enhance the prospect of the candidates being elected.
https://www.westcumbriamining.com/
There is apparently a good source of metallurgical coal able to be exported to steel factories.
Jeremy would be pleased.
BP aren’t standing in the locals
https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1123183065264721920
I'm not a Kipper any more than you are but we need to be honest about where the sentiment comes from. It's not all nasty people getting too uppity.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tories-slump-to-fourth-place-behind-labour-nigel-farage-and-change-uk-in-new-euro-elections-poll-a4130211.html
The UK has for many years had a sort of open door policy regarding immigration, charitably that might be because they wanted to force Brits up the value chain of employment but who knows and the fact is that successive governments have chosen not to implement many of the immigration restrictions that were available to it. Quite why anyone thought that leaving the EU would solve this problem goodness only knows.
I have also always claimed Boris will only take over once the Deal ultimately gets through
like the people who launched mass immigration with no thought to how it might play out, built no infrastructure to accommodate 4 million extra people, had no concept of the social cohesion in the communities most impacted and then called a referendum they lost to a bus.
The Vox Pops with Leavers indicate that the motivation for their vote was a belief that 'we' are being bossed around by 'them', or that 'we' are being neglected in favour of 'them' - the nature of the 'we' and the 'them' varying depending on the individual.
But one mustn't generalize.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/20/tony-blair-says-migrants-must-integrate-to-combat-far-right
And (thankfully) you are absolutely right on the question of migration from elsewhere. The pull factors (which I would actually call lasso and drag in factors as we need them so badly) are extremely strong.
Biden, Warren, perhaps Beto...
Sells:
Harris, Buttigieg, Yang
Not sure about Sanders.
Its not a UK phenomenon either its a Europe wide issue.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-wikipedia-page-battles
Sanders is a puzzle. I am red. Every time I think about putting something down on him, I think 'come on, the Dems want to win don't they. Surely they aren't gonna put Bernie up?'
“Over a significant period of time, including when we were last in government, politics has failed to find the right balance between diversity and integration,”
And haven't we been told that EU migration has fallen during the last three years ?
Now perhaps the government has decided that we need to replace Eastern European beggars with African beggars (I very much doubt that recent immigrants are from the higher rungs of the socioeconomic ladder) but that's not the fault of people who voted Leave but the fault of government.
The Conservative government which you support.
Dammit Topping, I nearly voted Leave. Me! Wanna know why? It was because I had had it up to here with an international authority that set up a border 9,000 miles long with scant regard for how it was to be policed. In the end I decided not to kick the dog, and in retrospect, I'm glad but it was a close thing.
Isam could accuse me of hypocrisy, and with some justification. In a sense I let others kick the dog for me in the hope it might teach it a lesson. I still nurture the hope that lessons are being learned. Meanwhile it doesn't become the likes of us to sneer at those who voted Leave. Sure, they included a fair share of thugs and halfwits, chancers and charlatans. Included a lot of decent people too though. We ignore them at our peril.
Like most leavers I am happy with some level of immigration - we're an immigrant nation - as long as its in a controlled way and matches the needs of the country. If you could just understand that maybe you could start to see a way forward that didnt require petulence every time the issue is raised.
Studies have shown there is a very minor effect on per capital GDP and wages.
What is this "impact of immigration" of which you speak? A new Polish supermarket? A mosque?
We hear a lot about the opinions of residents of Islington, Camden and Richmond on Brexit but rarely from those Londoners.
They certainly weren’t all black cab drivers!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6fHG0EcRI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ8I_IdJGNI
But actually those who run the government have decided what the needs of the country are and those needs are for a healthy level of immigration.
But by all means let's vote to leave the EU because that should help*.
*It has not helped.
Interestingly, Abrams has decided against a Senate run:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/441288-abrams-wont-run-for-senate-seat
Perhaps you would prefer if the voters stopped voting for the party in government ie the Conservatives.
Too often the EU tries to create grand projects without putting in place the proper institutional framework to make them robust enough to work in all circumstances (rather than just when things are just ticking along nicely). Only the Single Market and the Euro really have the bodies with the powers needed behind them to make them work.
By contrast, Schengen, while a nice idea in principle, only works in practice if you have a properly policed external border - which given the opportunities for free riding from the likes of Luxembourg or Belgium (hello, Mssrs Juncker and Verhofstadt), puts greatly disproportionate costs and pressure on a small number of states. A single external border requires a common border enforcement mechanism. That doesn't of itself necessarily require a unified European institution, accountable to Brussels (though it might, and it might be the most efficient option); it could mean an agreement to man and fund the border through an agreement enforceable in the CJEU, as circumstances dictate.
Likewise, the castle-in-the-sky idea of a European army only makes sense if it exists to enforce a European foreign policy, has an integrated command structure that doesn't require independent authorisation from national governments, and is funded from EU accounts. For obvious reasons, this hasn't been seriously proposed and until - for example - Irish soldiers can be sent overseas serving under a Polish general (I would say British to make it particularly controversial but Brexit confuses that) to enforce French strategic interests, it shouldn't happen.
I agree a "bad Tory" narrative could scatter the cards in many ways.. but I'm not sure I'd back Farage or his mates there.
(EDIT to add: tend to agree BoJo not keen to take over before the Deal goes through. Or even if he is, enough colleagues aren't keen enough to put him there sooner)
Gene Wolfe, the great fantasy / scifi novelist, was involved in the invention of Pringles:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/gene-wolfe-science-fiction-writer-with-a-literary-touch-dies-at-87/2019/04/28/9bf76226-69c1-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html