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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On healthcare Farage, Trump’s British cheerleader, is vulnerab

SystemSystem Posts: 12,172
edited April 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On healthcare Farage, Trump’s British cheerleader, is vulnerable

Last November Donald Trump took a beating in the midterm elections when his opponents, the Democrats, were able to make his threats to undermine what public health system there is in the United States into an issue. This is an approach that will be used at WH2020 for once something has become an an entitlement then it is exceedingly difficult and politically dangerous to take it away.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Uno
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I think this would have some effect in a general election, but I doubt it would in the European elections, since no-one thinks MEPs will have any influence over the NHS (or influence over much else for that matter).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Will it really matter? No one expects Farage* to have any policies other than Brexit 2: Die Harder.

    *except Nige himself.
    'On 12 April 2019, Farage said that there was "no difference between the Brexit party and Ukip in terms of policy"'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Third like Boris
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1120278484948062209
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1120314789438341120
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1120323197889544193
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,900
    To pick up on some issues from the previous:

    1) as HYUFD has repeatedly pointed out when parties in Government change Prime Minister they tend not to look too far so it's the Chancellor, the FS or the HS. Heseltine was the last serious outsider to challenge a sitting PM - might he have won? We'll never know but history tells us once Thatcher herself ruled out the Cabinet moved to find an anyone-but-Heseltine candidate. The current Cabinet will know IF Boris becomes PM they are almost certain to be dismissed en bloc - that will concentrate minds.

    2) IF Corbyn becomes PM and the Conservatives go into opposition, the question then becomes what will happen if or presumably when Britain becomes enveloped by quasi-Marxist darkness. Clearly, the Conservatives under almost any leader would enjoy a significant political advantage so the contest in Opposition will be even stronger than the contest in Government.

    There is currently an existential threat from the Brexit Party which will continue until we leave the EU or the Conservatives leave Government.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019
    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    I enjoyed those three consecutive comments, @Scott_P
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,529
    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
    Never is a long time. I could see it happening if State finances collapsed and the basis for the NHS had to change.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited April 2019
    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
    Never! Never! Never!!
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    I doubt that will make much of an impact. Farage's admirers will either regard it as fake news or think that if Nigel's said it it must be a brilliant idea after all.
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,529
    Do you think we will ever have enough referendums (referenda?) to grade them like Star Wars films? "Indyref1 was way better than Brexit1 but Brexit3 was the real return to form by Farage"
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    On topic: making the NHS a core part of an EU election? Can’t see it happening.

    :smiley:
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
    It certainly could, as long as its advocates managed to frame the NHS as some kind of preference of the 'Metropolitan Liberal Elite'. Once you succeed in doing that anything's possible.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019
    ExiledInScotland said:

    Do you think we will ever have enough referendums (referenda?) to grade them like Star Wars films? "Indyref1 was way better than Brexit1 but Brexit3 was the real return to form by Farage"

    As long as Leave keep winning, yes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,736
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Will it really matter? No one expects Farage* to have any policies other than Brexit 2: Die Harder.

    *except Nige himself.
    'On 12 April 2019, Farage said that there was "no difference between the Brexit party and Ukip in terms of policy"'

    Did he really say that meaning our current UKIP? if so then it is just his ego and Battern's keeping us from a single united swivel eyed loon party.

    The Farage party and the Conservativeshave the same problem over the NHS. To their younger, wealthier officer class it is a needlesss throwback and long overdue flogging off to the spivs. To their core voters, (the elderly and the C1 and C2 social conservatives) it is the one part of the welfare state that they rely and count on.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Will it really matter? No one expects Farage* to have any policies other than Brexit 2: Die Harder.

    *except Nige himself.
    'On 12 April 2019, Farage said that there was "no difference between the Brexit party and Ukip in terms of policy"'

    Did he really say that meaning our current UKIP? if so then it is just his ego and Battern's keeping us from a single united swivel eyed loon party.

    The Farage party and the Conservativeshave the same problem over the NHS. To their younger, wealthier officer class it is a needlesss throwback and long overdue flogging off to the spivs. To their core voters, (the elderly and the C1 and C2 social conservatives) it is the one part of the welfare state that they rely and count on.

    Did he mean it in terms of Brexit policy?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Will it really matter? No one expects Farage* to have any policies other than Brexit 2: Die Harder.

    *except Nige himself.
    'On 12 April 2019, Farage said that there was "no difference between the Brexit party and Ukip in terms of policy"'

    Did he really say that meaning our current UKIP? if so then it is just his ego and Battern's keeping us from a single united swivel eyed loon party.

    The Farage party and the Conservativeshave the same problem over the NHS. To their younger, wealthier officer class it is a needlesss throwback and long overdue flogging off to the spivs. To their core voters, (the elderly and the C1 and C2 social conservatives) it is the one part of the welfare state that they rely and count on.

    Did he mean it in terms of Brexit policy?
    Brexit has already led to the EU Medicines Agency being moved and its being her was a big reason why many big pharma companies were based in the UK
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    RobD said:

    On topic: making the NHS a core part of an EU election? Can’t see it happening.

    :smiley:

    What was on the side of the bus?
  • ajbajb Posts: 147
    Someone in the Conservatives must be thinking along these lines, otherwise I wouldn't be getting so many supposedly non-political facebook ads for the NHS long term plan (Ok it's a consultation of some kind, but conveniently right on the local elections).
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    I'm not sure how the answer to a sense of betrayal and simmering rage over the referendum and failure to Brexit is to talk about domestic policy. Unless you want to actively piss the electorate off even more in an EU election campaign.......
    At a GE, sure, but right now? It would hand Farage some more % on a platter
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Great header. Mike is definitely on to something. And use Hancock. Get him out there arguing for NHS against Farage. I know he's not that popular on PB, but he certainly doesn't come across as one of those Tories who would privatise the whole thing given a chance.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    MikeSmithson said:

    RobD said:

    On topic: making the NHS a core part of an EU election? Can’t see it happening.

    :smiley:

    What was on the side of the bus?
    Something about the UK getting its own seat at the WTO, I think?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    rottenborough said:

    Great header. Mike is definitely on to something. And use Hancock. Get him out there arguing for NHS against Farage. I know he's not that popular on PB, but he certainly doesn't come across as one of those Tories who would privatise the whole thing given a chance.

    Hancock could say helping the NHS or joining the Conservatives is no longer a choice between one and the other
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    In an astonishing and momentous development, Brendan endorses the Brexit Party.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/04/22/if-you-believe-in-democracy-then-vote-for-the-brexit-party/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1120314789438341120

    Shame. It would have been a fine time for quiet bat people everywhere.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    rottenborough said:

    Great header. Mike is definitely on to something. And use Hancock. Get him out there arguing for NHS against Farage. I know he's not that popular on PB, but he certainly doesn't come across as one of those Tories who would privatise the whole thing given a chance.

    Yeah, coming from May it would look as though she was trying change the subject deliberately.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,736
    edited April 2019
    ajb said:

    Someone in the Conservatives must be thinking along these lines, otherwise I wouldn't be getting so many supposedly non-political facebook ads for the NHS long term plan (Ok it's a consultation of some kind, but conveniently right on the local elections).

    The 5 year plan is quite interesting in concept. Not that it is heavy on detail or contains much that is new, but because it doesn't. Indeed it is much the same as at present, with a modest input of funds that doesn't quite meet the needs of a burgeoning and expensive group of retired baby boomers. There is a long overdue recognition that staff recruitment and retention is a major issue, but with little insight as to why this is an issue and how it can be addressed.

    The plan is a Butskillite one of central control, very unadventurous and unlikely to excite anyone, so full of meaningless platitudes, and hollow cliches. It is the sort of document that May approves of.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    The Conservative Party should definitely fight on the NHS. Brexit's weakest ground. What could go wrong?

    Labour's strongest ground.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited April 2019
    'Theyll say anything to try and deflect from their betrayal over Brexit'
    It's not a difficult attack to counter when you're the populists owning the only subject that will focus minds at the election.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Foxy said:

    ajb said:

    Someone in the Conservatives must be thinking along these lines, otherwise I wouldn't be getting so many supposedly non-political facebook ads for the NHS long term plan (Ok it's a consultation of some kind, but conveniently right on the local elections).

    The 5 year plan is quite interesting in concept. Not that it is heavy on detail or contains much that is new, but because it doesn't. Indeed it is much the same as at present, with a modest input of funds that doesn't quite meed the needs of a burgeoning and expensive group of retired baby boomers. There is a long overdue recognition that staff recruitment and retention is a major issue, but with little insight as to why this is an issue and how it can be addressed.

    The plan is a Butskillite one of central control, very unadventurous and unlikely to excite anyone, so full of meaningless platitudes, and hollow cliches. It is the sort of document that May approves of.

    Given how much people moan about NHS reforms, you would have through that they would be pleased with a plan that is steady as she goes. :p
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    edited April 2019
    Stark_Dawning said:

    In an astonishing and momentous development, Brendan endorses the Brexit Party.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/04/22/if-you-believe-in-democracy-then-vote-for-the-brexit-party/

    That's...hilarious.

    It seems that the ghostly hands of the Levellers & the Peterloo marchers will be guiding the pencils of true believers in democracy to put their X next to the latest vehicle for Nigel's narcissism party.

    Edit: actually it won't be pencils, good indelible ink to foil the deep state!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Are Norwich going to throw this??!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Are Norwich going to throw this??!

    Apparently not.

    yet...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,736
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    ajb said:

    Someone in the Conservatives must be thinking along these lines, otherwise I wouldn't be getting so many supposedly non-political facebook ads for the NHS long term plan (Ok it's a consultation of some kind, but conveniently right on the local elections).

    The 5 year plan is quite interesting in concept. Not that it is heavy on detail or contains much that is new, but because it doesn't. Indeed it is much the same as at present, with a modest input of funds that doesn't quite meed the needs of a burgeoning and expensive group of retired baby boomers. There is a long overdue recognition that staff recruitment and retention is a major issue, but with little insight as to why this is an issue and how it can be addressed.

    The plan is a Butskillite one of central control, very unadventurous and unlikely to excite anyone, so full of meaningless platitudes, and hollow cliches. It is the sort of document that May approves of.

    Given how much people moan about NHS reforms, you would have through that they would be pleased with a plan that is steady as she goes. :p
    I am not unhappy with it, though there are a few dark bits lingering in the subtext. Not so keen on central control and the "lick up, kick down" management from the DoH in Whitehall.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    ajb said:

    Someone in the Conservatives must be thinking along these lines, otherwise I wouldn't be getting so many supposedly non-political facebook ads for the NHS long term plan (Ok it's a consultation of some kind, but conveniently right on the local elections).

    The 5 year plan is quite interesting in concept. Not that it is heavy on detail or contains much that is new, but because it doesn't. Indeed it is much the same as at present, with a modest input of funds that doesn't quite meed the needs of a burgeoning and expensive group of retired baby boomers. There is a long overdue recognition that staff recruitment and retention is a major issue, but with little insight as to why this is an issue and how it can be addressed.

    The plan is a Butskillite one of central control, very unadventurous and unlikely to excite anyone, so full of meaningless platitudes, and hollow cliches. It is the sort of document that May approves of.

    Given how much people moan about NHS reforms, you would have through that they would be pleased with a plan that is steady as she goes. :p
    Indeed.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    You just give him the opportunity to spout everything that won UKIP votes last time. Which is all Clegg managed. His supporters won't hear anything else that is said.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Are Norwich going to throw this??!

    Nah Leeds failing to win on Friday with 80% possession, 36 shots and 10 on target was the end for them, its Norwich and Sheffield utd up, villa will win the play offs
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    And the consequences of ignoring the referendum result? I assume those will be discussed, too?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,712
    RobD said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    And the consequences of ignoring the referendum result? I assume those will be discussed, too?
    I find it incredible that people think that the referendum result has been ignored ! What else have we been talking about for the last couple of years?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The Conservative Party should definitely fight on the NHS. Brexit's weakest ground. What could go wrong?

    Labour's strongest ground.

    Not so much in Wales, when people see what Labour actually delivers on health.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    JosiasJessop said:

    RobD said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    And the consequences of ignoring the referendum result? I assume those will be discussed, too?
    I find it incredible that people think that the referendum result has been ignored ! What else have we been talking about for the last couple of years?
    Fair enough. Discussed, then ignored. :pensive:

    (Although I was talking about the consequences of a hypothetical).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    If a voter puts the NHS above all other issues and would not countenance a role for insurance in healthcare like most western countries have they will likely already be committed Labour voters anyway and would not even consider the Brexit Party
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    In an astonishing and momentous development, Brendan endorses the Brexit Party.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/04/22/if-you-believe-in-democracy-then-vote-for-the-brexit-party/

    That's...hilarious.

    It seems that the ghostly hands of the Levellers & the Peterloo marchers will be guiding the pencils of true believers in democracy to put their X next to the latest vehicle for Nigel's narcissism party.

    Edit: actually it won't be pencils, good indelible ink to foil the deep state!
    More evidence that the RCP never disbanded, let alone abjured Marxism-Leninism-Trotskyism, and are in fact working hard to bring down capitalism from the inside.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited April 2019
    ..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1120278484948062209

    Steve Baker refused to even vote for the Deal on May's third attempt, unlike Boris, so Baker makes even Boris look moderate in comparison. However Baker could pick up at least 20 to 30 No Deal ERG hardline MPs in the first round
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    The Brexit Party (and UKIP) is a parasite.

    UKIP "won" the last Euro election, but they had no MPs and were not going to be a party of government. They only got their agenda enacted by infecting the Tory party.

    If the Tories purged the headbangers, the Brexiteers would not be able to form a government. The remainers might (just), especially if Corbyn was the alternative.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    HYUFD said:


    The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.

    But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
    No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you


    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/04/18/voting-intention-conservatives-29-labour-30-16-17-
    It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.

    Now you may well gain others.

    But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
    @HYUFD doesn’t speak for the party.

    He is interested in purity rather than reaching out - he tried to persuade TSE he was a LibDem not a Conservative for goodness sakes
    To the outsider - like me - he seems to speak like many Tories, at least as reported in the press. Sensible pragmatic liberal Tories seem awfully thin on the ground. The Tories are coming across as illiberal and nasty and destructive in their pursuit of some sort of utopia, apparently motivated only by dislike of foreigners.
    Even bigG admitted the no dealers are the largest group in the party. Wets are very much a minority
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1120278484948062209

    Steve Baker refused to even vote for the Deal on May's third attempt, unlike Boris, so Baker makes even Boris look moderate in comparison. However Baker could pick up at least 20 to 30 No Deal ERG hardline MPs in the first round
    Who wouldn't vote for Hard man Baker?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    https://twitter.com/sarahwollaston/status/1120302280874647552
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kle4 said:

    Who wouldn't vote for Hard man Baker?

    Still can't believe David "SAS" Davis let's him get away with that...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Bunch of fools. She's already been willing to go if they voted for Brexit. I assume this loyalist did so too, but unless they now back no deal what plan do they have that would be different to May?

    At least Baker and co have a plan, hoping something better comes up is not one and yet is all most demanding May resign come up with
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Popcorn on standby.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    et tu, Damian?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    I doubt many Brexit party voters are going to change their minds. Faragists are like Corbynistas - they will forgive their man anything.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Misread the final word as 'on'. Was somewhat bemused for a moment.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Bunch of fools. She's already been willing to go if they voted for Brexit. I assume this loyalist did so too, but unless they now back no deal what plan do they have that would be different to May?

    At least Baker and co have a plan, hoping something better comes up is not one and yet is all most demanding May resign come up with
    I suspect there is a strong case of unicornitus here. Tory members and their chairmen, backbenchers etc have convinced themselves that a true Brexiteer will be able to negotiate a new WA.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    The Brexit Party (and UKIP) is a parasite.

    UKIP "won" the last Euro election, but they had no MPs and were not going to be a party of government. They only got their agenda enacted by infecting the Tory party.

    If the Tories purged the headbangers, the Brexiteers would not be able to form a government. The remainers might (just), especially if Corbyn was the alternative.
    No they wouldn't, given 24% of 2017 Tories have defected to the Brexit Party or UKIP ahead of the next general election according to Yougov and 48% of 2017 Tories will vote Brexit Party or UKIP according to the same poll in the EU Parliament elections and given a majority of even 2015 Tory voters voted Leave in 2016 there is no way on earth Remain Tories alone would be able to form a Government on their own even with Corbyn as the alternative.

    The only conceivable way a Remain Tory Party purged of Leavers could ever form a Government alone again would be in Coalition with the LDs, CUK, Blairite MPs still in Labour and probably the SNP too which is almost implausible in any conceivable circumstance
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Damien Green of the Malthouse Compromise?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    SouthamObserver said:

    I doubt many Brexit party voters are going to change their minds. Faragists are like Corbynistas - they will forgive their man anything.

    And Blairites
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    HYUFD said:

    If a voter puts the NHS above all other issues and would not countenance a role for insurance in healthcare like most western countries have they will likely already be committed Labour voters anyway and would not even consider the Brexit Party

    No, a lot of Tories and others love the NHS and the older they are the more they love it.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
    The NHS will eventually bankrupt the UK and then we will move to a social insurance or privatised model. The only model isn’t the US model - few European states adopt our system.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    You mean challenge the idea we could do what 180 plus nations do - live outside the EU’s orbit? And most of them aren’t G8 members,
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,681
    brendan16 said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    You mean challenge the idea we could do what 180 plus nations do - live outside the EU’s orbit? And most of them aren’t G8 members,
    How many of those 180 plus nations have left the single market and customs union and moved to WTO terms? And how many of them made it a success, can you even name half a dozen?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    rottenborough said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Popcorn on standby.
    You have some left??
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,681
    Well Farage isn't personally popular, given his repeated failures to win Westminster elections, including that memorable occasion he finished third in a two horse race.

    Make him Mr Anti-NHS man and say he'll flog the NHS to his mate Trump, put that on the side of a bus, and he'll lose, once again.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I could see an argument along those lines - people voted for Brexit to make the NHS stronger - could be a good way to make the case for May's Deal being closer to the "true" Brexit that people voted for than a no deal Brexit.

    Such a shame that Theresa May is so incapable to make such a case persuasively.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Will it really matter? No one expects Farage* to have any policies other than Brexit 2: Die Harder.

    *except Nige himself.
    'On 12 April 2019, Farage said that there was "no difference between the Brexit party and Ukip in terms of policy"'

    Did he really say that meaning our current UKIP? if so then it is just his ego and Battern's keeping us from a single united swivel eyed loon party.

    The Farage party and the Conservativeshave the same problem over the NHS. To their younger, wealthier officer class it is a needlesss throwback and long overdue flogging off to the spivs. To their core voters, (the elderly and the C1 and C2 social conservatives) it is the one part of the welfare state that they rely and count on.

    The challenge with the NHS is the focus on structure. I think most would agree there is a critical role for the state in financing health provision, and that free at the point of need has a lot of merit (although it’s not perfect).

    It is frustrating though that it’s not possible to make any changes or improvements without being accused of trying to destroy the NHS. Surely we should all be motivated about looking for the best outcomes from whatever funds are available
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    brendan16 said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    The way to defeat Farage on Brexit is to challenge him on Brexit. Pin him down on detail. Spell out the consequences.

    You mean challenge the idea we could do what 180 plus nations do - live outside the EU’s orbit? And most of them aren’t G8 members,
    Is the fact that most of them aren't in the G8 supposed to make this sound like a good idea?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MikeSmithson said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Will it really matter? No one expects Farage* to have any policies other than Brexit 2: Die Harder.

    *except Nige himself.
    'On 12 April 2019, Farage said that there was "no difference between the Brexit party and Ukip in terms of policy"'

    Did he really say that meaning our current UKIP? if so then it is just his ego and Battern's keeping us from a single united swivel eyed loon party.

    The Farage party and the Conservativeshave the same problem over the NHS. To their younger, wealthier officer class it is a needlesss throwback and long overdue flogging off to the spivs. To their core voters, (the elderly and the C1 and C2 social conservatives) it is the one part of the welfare state that they rely and count on.

    Did he mean it in terms of Brexit policy?
    Brexit has already led to the EU Medicines Agency being moved and its being her was a big reason why many big pharma companies were based in the UK
    Which big pharmaceutical companies were based in the U.K. because of the EMA?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    williamglenn said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Damien Green of the Malthouse Compromise?
    At which May can simply reply 'Damian, stick to Pornhub!'
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    brendan16 said:

    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
    The NHS will eventually bankrupt the UK and then we will move to a social insurance or privatised model. The only model isn’t the US model - few European states adopt our system.
    Er, nearly half of them do.

    Anyway it's not the UK but the US system that is bankrupting the country, with 18% of its GDP going on medical care.

    They aren't even healthy as a result. Canada has better outcomes and its NHS is free to all residents, like ours is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1120291325264498696?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited April 2019
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Well Farage isn't personally popular, given his repeated failures to win Westminster elections, including that memorable occasion he finished third in a two horse race.

    Make him Mr Anti-NHS man and say he'll flog the NHS to his mate Trump, put that on the side of a bus, and he'll lose, once again.

    Farage is the only party leader other than May, Cameron and Blair to win most votes in a UKwide election in the last 15 years
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,681
    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Well Farage isn't personally popular, given his repeated failures to win Westminster elections, including that memorable occasion he finished third in a two horse race.

    Make him Mr Anti-NHS man and say he'll flog the NHS to his mate Trump, put that on the side of a bus, and he'll lose, once again.

    Farage is the only party leader other than May, Cameron and Blair to win most votes in a UKwide election in the last 15 years
    Fake news, Michael Howard also won.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,573
    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/sarahwollaston/status/1120302280874647552

    Isn't it strange how though about 50% (possibly 50%+) of voters support Remain only ridiculous and/or local and/or silly and/or virtually non-existent parties are standing on that explicit ticket, each with the desire to beat the others; and even stranger that this ragbag of silly and provincial parties may well somehow succeed in remaining but stay ridiculous and silly and provincial. Funny business politics.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Andrew Green?

    Since Grant Shapps has already come out against her
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,681
    I'd also focus on the monster Farage created at UKIP.

    This is positively incel.

    A leading Ukip candidate for the European elections argued that feminism was responsible for a rise in the number of men carrying out mass murders, because the killers felt disenfranchised and “out of options”, it has emerged.

    Carl Benjamin, a social media activist who previously tweeted “I wouldn’t even rape you” to the Labour MP Jess Phillips, argued in a now-deleted YouTube video that feminism had caused male mental health to deteriorate, prompting more mass killings.

    “This is what feminism has wrought – a generation of men who do not know what to do, who are being demonised for what they are,” said Benjamin, who uses the name Sargon of Akkad on social media.

    “Before your stupid social justice feminist bullshit, it didn’t happen on this scale. It’s crazy – this is a disease of the modern age,” Benjamin said in the 2014 video, recorded after the murder of six people in California that year by a 22-year-old man who said the killings were a response to women rejecting him sexually.

    “You are responsible for perpetuating it, by disenfranchising these poor fucking guys who don’t have any options left,” Benjamin said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/22/ukip-mep-candidate-carl-benjamin-blamed-feminists-for-rise-in-male-violence
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Well Farage isn't personally popular, given his repeated failures to win Westminster elections, including that memorable occasion he finished third in a two horse race.

    Make him Mr Anti-NHS man and say he'll flog the NHS to his mate Trump, put that on the side of a bus, and he'll lose, once again.

    Farage is the only party leader other than May, Cameron and Blair to win most votes in a UKwide election in the last 15 years
    Fake news, Michael Howard also won.
    2004 was 15 years ago but even if you include that Howard ran a UKIP lite campaign in the 2004 Euro elections anyway
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    brendan16 said:

    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
    The NHS will eventually bankrupt the UK and then we will move to a social insurance or privatised model. The only model isn’t the US model - few European states adopt our system.
    Naah. They'll just keep devaluing the currency.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 2019
    Good afternoon.

    It now seems that the most likely course of events is Boris as Leader of the Tories, and an immediate election.

    Indeed, Boris may well engineer a deal with the Brexit Party. It is no longer an absurd proposition to think of Nigel Farage in Cabinet.

    Having said that, a Corbyn minority government looks most likely, propped up by SNP for confidence and supply, by the end of the year. Border poll and Scottish referendum 2 likely by 2023 (although I would expect both to result in no change to the status quo).

    As we see, Brexit destroys everything actual small c conservatives hold dear.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    rural_voter said:

    brendan16 said:

    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    Mike’s on the money there. I suggested to someone recently that Farage should join the SDP, and was told his views on the NHS were one of the main reasons why they are incompatible.

    Funnily enough, when my dad was in a NHS hospital in 2016, the staff I spoke to were in favour of privatisation, but said no party was bold enough to do it.

    Privatisation will NEVER happen.
    The NHS will eventually bankrupt the UK and then we will move to a social insurance or privatised model. The only model isn’t the US model - few European states adopt our system.
    Er, nearly half of them do.

    Anyway it's not the UK but the US system that is bankrupting the country, with 18% of its GDP going on medical care.

    They aren't even healthy as a result. Canada has better outcomes and its NHS is free to all residents, like ours is.
    Canada has publicly funded Medicare insurance but private insurance is required for prescription drugs, social care and dental care
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited April 2019
    kinabalu said:

    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.

    They do when you consider most working class voters are more concerned about immigration, were more likely to vote Leave and want tougher action on crime than the middle class.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    kinabalu said:

    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.

    Every right of centre party relies on fooling the working class to gain power. Be they conservatives, populists or Fascists.

    Working class Tories vote against their self interest without realising it. In contrast middle class lefties do so deliberately.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.

    They do when you consider most working class voters are more concerned about immigration, were more likely to vote Leave and want tougher action on crime than the middle class.

    Which does rather beg the question: will the Conservatives reduce immigration? I assume they may (or may not) reduce the rate of increase, but they won't throw it into reverse.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    SandyRentool said:

    kinabalu said:

    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.

    Every right of centre party relies on fooling the working class to gain power. Be they conservatives, populists or Fascists.

    Working class Tories vote against their self interest without realising it. In contrast middle class lefties do so deliberately.
    Middle class lefties happily vote for open door immigration and more easily available plumbers and nannies etc more human rights laws for lawyers are in their own self interest and left-wing policies for schools while they send their own children private. If they employ a good accountant they can lessen their tax bill too, working class voters who vote for fight wing populists do so as they believe controlled immigration, a tough approach to crime and discipline in schools and a strong nation state are in their own best interests
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    SandyRentool said:

    kinabalu said:

    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.

    Every right of centre party relies on fooling the working class to gain power. Be they conservatives, populists or Fascists.

    Working class Tories vote against their self interest without realising it. In contrast middle class lefties do so deliberately.
    Middle class lefties are remarkably adept at adopting policy positions which seem almost designed to shore up the buoyant working class Tory/Brexit Party vote.

    Latest YouGov Labour overall 30%. Labour C2DEs 31%. Tory + Brexit +UKIP C2DEs 46%.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1120291325264498696?s=20

    As Goodwin said the other day, one effect of the EU referendum has been to make UK more european, in the sense we now have a flourishing National Populist party.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.

    They do when you consider most working class voters are more concerned about immigration, were more likely to vote Leave and want tougher action on crime than the middle class.

    Which does rather beg the question: will the Conservatives reduce immigration? I assume they may (or may not) reduce the rate of increase, but they won't throw it into reverse.
    It is precisely as May's Conservstives have not to their satisfaction many have moved to the Brexit Party and UKIP
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    RobD said:

    rottenborough said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1120321370771136512

    Popcorn on standby.
    You have some left??
    Keep re-ordering.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited April 2019
    rottenborough said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1120291325264498696?s=20

    As Goodwin said the other day, one effect of the EU referendum has been to make UK more european, in the sense we now have a flourishing National Populist party.
    And will continue to do so unless a hard Brexiteer succeeds May.

    It is not just in Europe National Populism is on the rise either as Trump and Bolsonaro have showed
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    SandyRentool said:

    kinabalu said:

    Right wing populists never have the interests of the working class at heart. They pretend to - often successfully - but it's a con. That is why they are always backed by and hang out with shadowy billionaires and seedy aristocrats.

    So should I say it? Should I break the cardinal rule of sober internet discussion and make the comparison that must not speak its name?

    Hang it, yes I will.

    Farage is just like Piers Morgan.

    Every right of centre party relies on fooling the working class to gain power. Be they conservatives, populists or Fascists.

    Working class Tories vote against their self interest without realising it. In contrast middle class lefties do so deliberately.
    Or perhaps rich right wing populists pretend to respect working class voters, whereas rich left wingers don't even pretend that they do.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    NYT:

    Representative Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, a third-term congressman who has pushed for a “new generation of leadership” in Washington, declared his candidacy for president on Monday, becoming the 19th candidate to enter the Democratic primary field."
  • Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    I agree with Farage about how to pay for Healthcare.
This discussion has been closed.