It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying to implement socialism in practice does not a happy electorate make while half the highest earners in Paris ended up in London when Hollande and the Socialists were in charge. (Given the more free market Macron has now replaced Hollande we could even see the reverse and rich Londoners moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
The one benefit of a Corbyn government you do point out is it would be reliant on the SNP to stay in power, so the nationalists could not keep crying out how Westminster ignores Scotland any longer
And the price for their support would be - IndyRef2 with the UK government not campaigning for No
If the answer to the question is Boris, then we're probably asking the wrong question.
I would only disagree if the alternative was that snake in the grass Gove, otherwise I am with you.
I'm in the odd position of quite liking Boris's personality, whilst thinking he'd make a terrible PM. Whilst I dislike Gove's personality, but think he might make a reasonable PM ...
There's a difference between liking someone, or even agreeing with their views, and thinking they'd be good in a particular role.
I suspect Michael Gove would be engaging company. He has an endlessly enquiring mind. That’s not necessarily a good thing in a politician.
I think both Gove and Boris would be engaging company. I think Gove might listen and even be persuadable, when Boris would agree with everything you say, and then go off and do what'd enrich him and his friends ...
I hesitate to comment on people I know, but to be positive, Boris is definitely engaging company, and has a good mind when he focuses; Gove is not cuddly but he's interesting, and has the rare virtue among politicians of immediately considering what you say and giving an intelligent answer (rather than "I'll keep it in mind" or the like). He is almost certainly the best mind in the Cabinet, and the most willing to break established assumptions - an interesting though risky characteristic. (His nearest Labour counterpart is probably McDonnell.)
IMO the majority of Tories are overwhelmingly focused on finding someone who will deliver a meaningful Brexit and is potentially an election-winner - they see everything else as secondary, such as depth, energy, integrity, or ability to bring people together.
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
If the answer to the question is Boris, then we're probably asking the wrong question.
I would only disagree if the alternative was that snake in the grass Gove, otherwise I am with you.
I'm in the odd position of quite liking Boris's personality, whilst thinking he'd make a terrible PM. Whilst I dislike Gove's personality, but think he might make a reasonable PM ...
There's a difference between liking someone, or even agreeing with their views, and thinking they'd be good in a particular role.
I suspect Michael Gove would be engaging company. He has an endlessly enquiring mind. That’s not necessarily a good thing in a politician.
I think both Gove and Boris would be engaging company. I think Gove might listen and even be persuadable, when Boris would agree with everything you say, and then go off and do what'd enrich him and his friends ...
I hesitate to comment on people I know, but to be positive, Boris is definitely engaging company, and has a good mind when he focuses; Gove is not cuddly but he's interesting, and has the rare virtue among politicians of immediately considering what you say and giving an intelligent answer (rather than "I'll keep it in mind" or the like). He is almost certainly the best mind in the Cabinet, and the most willing to break established assumptions - an interesting though risky characteristic. (His nearest Labour counterpart is probably McDonnell.)
IMO the majority of Tories are overwhelmingly focused on finding someone who will deliver a meaningful Brexit and is potentially an election-winner - they see everything else as secondary, such as depth, energy, integrity, or ability to bring people together.
Were Boris to become Tory leader, perhaps 10 Tory MPs would resign the Tory whip and join Nick Boles on the Opposition benches. The effect would be to reduce Tory representation to circa 305 MPs - well below the level needed to sustain a majority even with continued DUP support. Under such circumstances , would he even be appointed PM if it was clear he did not command a majority in the House of Commons? Edit - Just noticed that Alastair Meeks beat me to it a few hours ago!
Tory leader but not able to be PM. Interesting constitutional crisis.
I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.
Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.
These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.
So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?
Not very. He’s a lay.
Most Tory members want Brexit above all and they will not trust a Remainer again like May to deliver it, only a Leaver like Boris
I can just see Boris on the steps of No 10. "One ring to rule them all. ...."
Were Boris to become Tory leader, perhaps 10 Tory MPs would resign the Tory whip and join Nick Boles on the Opposition benches. The effect would be to reduce Tory representation to circa 305 MPs - well below the level needed to sustain a majority even with continued DUP support. Under such circumstances , would he even be appointed PM if it was clear he did not command a majority in the House of Commons? Edit - Just noticed that Alastair Meeks beat me to it a few hours ago!
Those MPs would likely not back Corbyn either and given the alternative is a general election Tory MPs and members will want Boris as Leader to reduce leakage to the Brexit Party anyway
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.
Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.
These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.
So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?
Not very. He’s a lay.
Most Tory members want Brexit above all and they will not trust a Remainer again like May to deliver it, only a Leaver like Boris
I can just see Boris on the steps of No 10. "One ring to rule them all. ...."
Boris is lazy and would have achieved his ambition, I can see him revoking if things get too hard.
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Were Boris to become Tory leader, perhaps 10 Tory MPs would resign the Tory whip and join Nick Boles on the Opposition benches. The effect would be to reduce Tory representation to circa 305 MPs - well below the level needed to sustain a majority even with continued DUP support. Under such circumstances , would he even be appointed PM if it was clear he did not command a majority in the House of Commons? Edit - Just noticed that Alastair Meeks beat me to it a few hours ago!
Tory leader but not able to be PM. Interesting constitutional crisis.
Mr. Recidivist, hike taxes, crush commerce beneath a hundredweight of red tape, side with the Russian state over the UK state (as he did over the use of chemical weapons on British soil), axe Trident, starve the armed forces of resources (even more so than the incumbent government).
Corbyn would be a catastrophically bad PM.
And the other side would say that the Tories will slash public spending, allow bosses to exploit workers, side with the US in its imperialist ventures and, well on defence it looks like both sides plan to leave us defenceless.
I'll ignore both shades of hyperbole.
Corbyn's flavour of Labour isn't the one I favour, but it still seems preferable to what the Tories are actually doing at the moment.
A Corbyn v Boris battle would at least force voters to make a choice, socialism or hard Brexit
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying to implement socialism in practice does not a happy electorate make while half the highest earners in Paris ended up in London when Hollande and the Socialists were in charge. (Given the more free market Macron has now replaced Hollande we could even see the reverse and rich Londoners moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Project fear.
Excpt this one will come to pass.
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Project fear.
Excpt this one will come to pass.
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
Were Boris to become Tory leader, perhaps 10 Tory MPs would resign the Tory whip and join Nick Boles on the Opposition benches. The effect would be to reduce Tory representation to circa 305 MPs - well below the level needed to sustain a majority even with continued DUP support. Under such circumstances , would he even be appointed PM if it was clear he did not command a majority in the House of Commons? Edit - Just noticed that Alastair Meeks beat me to it a few hours ago!
Tory leader but not able to be PM. Interesting constitutional crisis.
FTPA strikes again. Take a bow DC.
To be fair (why?) I have a suspicion it wasn't his idea, but Nick Clegg's. Open to correction, though.
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying to implement socialism in practice does not a happy electorate make while half the highest earners in Paris ended up in London when Hollande and the Socialists were in charge. (Given the more free market Macron has now replaced Hollande we could even see the reverse and rich Londoners moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
That assumes that the Tories will retain all their current voters, of course. It could be that the party you are projecting puts off quite a few of the remaining Tory electorate.
1. Party discipline seems much stronger within Labour. 2. The fact of being in government will make it very much easier for MPs to override any objections they may have to one individual measure. They will persuade themselves - or be persuaded - that a measure may not be as extreme as all that. 3. The fear of deselections. 4. They won’t want to be blamed for undermining a Labour government. 5. They have done the square root of fuck all to temper Corbyn on anti-semitism.
So I do not place much faith in moderate Labour MPs, frankly.
If Corbyn becomes PM, and it's still very much an if, not a when, it is almost certain that he will head a minority government. I have not seen any polling that suggests he is on course for a majority and the evidence from byelections doesn't point that way either. So he will be dependent on the goodwill of the SNP, LDs, and Labour moderates, some of who, will no doubt sacrifice their careers to prevent what they believe to be damaging extremism (just as some Tory moderates are doing at the moment). The view that a Corbyn premiership will instantly turn the UK into a latter day Venezuela is absurd, it's much more likely that Labour will follow the same kind of path that Syriza has taken in Greece and quietly drop its more extreme positions.
No forgetting the difficulty of getting health, education transport etc measures through the committee stage under EVEL, where Labour would be in a minority.
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
The one benefit of a Corbyn government you do point out is it would be reliant on the SNP to stay in power, so the nationalists could not keep crying out how Westminster ignores Scotland any longer
And the price for their support would be - IndyRef2 with the UK government not campaigning for No
Yes, but JC doesn't want referenda does he?
Depends which side of the bed he got out that morning.
11/03/17 - Scottish independence: Jeremy Corbyn says indyref2 'absolutely fine
20/09/18 - Jeremy Corbyn has said he is "not ruling out" giving consent for a second referendum on Scottish independence
23/09/18 - Labour to block new Scottish independence vote - BBC News
04/03/19 - On a second independence referendum he said: “I’m of the view that a referendum took place in 2014 it was supposed to be a once in a lifetime decision.
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
It all sounds very Brexit to me. The elite will be almost completely unaffected. It will be everyone else who ends up paying.
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
I'm not exactly fond of flying either, but 'business' is not just strategy meetings.
As an example, a friend of mine is currently in the Far East for a few months visiting a couple of factories as they bring up a new product, to ensure compliance. That would be very hard / impossible to do via video, as he needs to be able to stick his nose in various areas that they may not be keen for him to see.
I never did a vast amount of business travel (thank f***), but I don't think any of them could have been done via teleconference - and being tech firms, the ones that could be were (annoyingly often on bank holidays). There's also definitely something in being able to get to know someone you're doing business with - even having an after-hours drink can help.
But PB's frequent business flyer's club would be able to say more ...
If the answer to the question is Boris, then we're probably asking the wrong question.
I would only disagree if the alternative was that snake in the grass Gove, otherwise I am with you.
I'm in the odd position of quite liking Boris's personality, whilst thinking he'd make a terrible PM. Whilst I dislike Gove's personality, but think he might make a reasonable PM ...
There's a difference between liking someone, or even agreeing with their views, and thinking they'd be good in a particular role.
I suspect Michael Gove would be engaging company. He has an endlessly enquiring mind. That’s not necessarily a good thing in a politician.
I think both Gove and Boris would be engaging company. I think Gove might listen and even be persuadable, when Boris would agree with everything you say, and then go off and do what'd enrich him and his friends ...
I hesitate to comment on people I know, but to be positive, Boris is definitely engaging company, and has a good mind when he focuses; Gove is not cuddly but he's interesting, and has the rare virtue among politicians of immediately considering what you say and giving an intelligent answer (rather than "I'll keep it in mind" or the like). He is almost certainly the best mind in the Cabinet, and the most willing to break established assumptions - an interesting though risky characteristic. (His nearest Labour counterpart is probably McDonnell.)
IMO the majority of Tories are overwhelmingly focused on finding someone who will deliver a meaningful Brexit and is potentially an election-winner - they see everything else as secondary, such as depth, energy, integrity, or ability to bring people together.
Reads like that the best for the Conservatives would be a Boris/Gove ticket. I would whether that could work?
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
I agree. The Tories are not interested in governing for wealth creators like me. They are the anti-business party. It's bizarre that you support them like I support a football club, though.
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
It all sounds very Brexit to me. The elite will be almost completely unaffected. It will be everyone else who ends up paying.
It's the rich wot make the trouble' It's the poor wot get the blame....
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
I'm not exactly fond of flying either, but 'business' is not just strategy meetings.
As an example, a friend of mine is currently in the Far East for a few months visiting a couple of factories as they bring up a new product, to ensure compliance. That would be very hard / impossible to do via video, as he needs to be able to stick his nose in various areas that they may not be keen for him to see.
I never did a vast amount of business travel (thank f***), but I don't think any of them could have been done via teleconference - and being tech firms, the ones that could be were (annoyingly often on bank holidays). There's also definitely something in being able to get to know someone you're doing business with - even having an after-hours drink can help.
But PB's frequent business flyer's club would be able to say more ...
One of my sons does an enormous amount of business travel and I have no doubt whatsoever from what he and his friends say that your penultimate sentence is accurate! Conferences, on the other hand, are just as easy to arrange as teleconferences, and those are increasing.
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
It all sounds very Brexit to me. The elite will be almost completely unaffected. It will be everyone else who ends up paying.
Except, it was the majority amongst "everyone else" that voted for Brexit.
(Cue the cries of "but they were too stupid to know what they were doing....")
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
It all sounds very Brexit to me. The elite will be almost completely unaffected. It will be everyone else who ends up paying.
Except, it was the majority amongst "everyone else" that voted for Brexit.
(Cue the cries of "but they were too stupid to know what they were doing....")
And Corbyn will only win power if he wins an election. Are people too stupid to realise what voting Labour will mean for them?
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
Well said.
When did you last vote Tory Cyclefree?
If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world
I have voted for all 3 main parties in my time, as well as Green in local elections. The fact that you blithely disregard the possibility of getting votes from people like me - or my husband, who has voted Tory, was just about in favour of Leaving but has now changed his mind, who lives in a marginal constituency with a Tory MP and who wouldn’t now touch the Tories with a bargepole (and I too will shortly be living in that constituency) - tells us all we need to know about a Tory party which couldn’t give a shit about this country, its future and the future of our children.
That the illiberal right is winning in some places is not a cause for celebration but for despair. There was a time when the Tories were in favour of liberal democracy and against lying bullies. Not any more it seems. You should, frankly, be ashamed of putting forward people like Bolsonaro and Berlusconi and Trump as people to be emulated.
Clarke knows more about trade and the economy than any of the pygmies currently vying for the Tory party leadership. He was also a notably competent and successful Chancellor.
A No Deal exit just means chaos and then being forced to sign something broadly similar later. It will also lessen our chances of getting good deals with other countries.
Farage’s Brexit party is peddling a dangerous fantasy. Grown up politicians confront fantasies not feed them. Your reaction simply confirms my belief that the Tories have stopped being a grown up party.
Clarke was also a markedly political Chancellor. I think the U.K. has benefitted from having an independent BofE
Potentially TMay could even stay on as PM right through an election campaign...
I'm trying to work out if there has ever been a PM who led the country through an election campaign while acknowledged potential successors slugged it out. I honestly can't think of such a case. Portland in 1808 would be the nearest equivalent, but it wouldn't be a near equivalent as he was party leader even if it was understood Perceval would be taking over in the near future.
Aznar in Spain in 2004
Spain isn't part of the UK, although it would simplify matters Gibraltarian considerably if it was!
If only Mary and Phillip II had clicked.
Reino de España y el Reino Unido de Gran Bretaña, one nation indissoluble.
I know you’re a Scot Nat, and this marriage being successful might have meant no Scottish Succession, but are you really wishing the Inquisition on the English?
Well, it might have acclimatised you to the awful, cruel repression of the EUSSR.
I’ve never used that term and think it’s both trite and diminishing to the terrible wrongs that were done in Communism’s name
The idea that a No Deal departure, with all the disruption that will cause, not just in the short-term but to other countries’ willingness to enter into agreements with Britain on anything, should be the preferred option of a significant percentage of a party of government simply shows that the Tories are not fit to be in government.
The Tories - and the country - need a leader who is prepared to speak some hard truths to them about what is needed for countries to earn their way in the world. Purity tests and a refusal to compromise with anyone outside these shores are the opposite of what is needed. Sadly for them (and us) there is no-one, other than Ken Clarke, with the courage to do this.
Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?
We’ve abided by Article 50.
The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.
Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
Why would any country invest the time and effort into negotiating an FTA with Britain when it can have no confidence that such an agreement would get past Parliament? It’s not simply a bit of silliness. It goes to the heart of whether Britain is seen as a sensible, pragmatic, reliable, honourable country to do business with.
How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?
What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.
The US has turned down a bunch of treaties. It’s called the separation of powers.
I’m sure you can point to some idiots who want to welsh not pay our debts, but most I suspect would pay the £15bn or so that we owe just not the transition payments. Which is reasonable.
I think you are understandably stressed about the failures of our political class. But I think you are misreading the realities of the situation as a result.
Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
There is a deal, on all sorts of things from flights to medicine, and it didn't get done...
All of the rollover trade deals Fox was boasting about, didn't get done.
The rescue by the German car makers, didn't get done.
All of the Brexiteer wishful thinking, didn't get done...
Ok. I bet you £10, at evens, to charity that within 18 months of a no deal Brexit there will be a long-term arrangement that keeps the planes flying. If there’s a deal then the bet is null.
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Project fear.
Excpt this one will come to pass.
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
Very democratic.
If people decide they do not like the way a country is being run and feel it is to their detriment do you think they should be forced to stay and continue to support that country?
Perhaps you also feel that if someone does not like the way they are being treated in a job they should be forced to remain and continue to work in that business to their own detriment?
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
I'm not exactly fond of flying either, but 'business' is not just strategy meetings.
As an example, a friend of mine is currently in the Far East for a few months visiting a couple of factories as they bring up a new product, to ensure compliance. That would be very hard / impossible to do via video, as he needs to be able to stick his nose in various areas that they may not be keen for him to see.
I never did a vast amount of business travel (thank f***), but I don't think any of them could have been done via teleconference - and being tech firms, the ones that could be were (annoyingly often on bank holidays). There's also definitely something in being able to get to know someone you're doing business with - even having an after-hours drink can help.
But PB's frequent business flyer's club would be able to say more ...
I think if everyone were only allowed to fly a certain amount of miles per year before they had to pay a lot more to fly that might be a nice idea. Flight tax!
The idea that a No Deal departure, with all the disruption that will cause, not just in the short-term but to other countries’ willingness to enter into agreements with Britain on anything, should be the preferred option of a significant percentage of a party of government simply shows that the Tories are not fit to be in government.
The Tories - and the country - need a leader who is prepared to speak some hard truths to them about what is needed for countries to earn their way in the world. Purity tests and a refusal to compromise with anyone outside these shores are the opposite of what is needed. Sadly for them (and us) there is no-one, other than Ken Clarke, with the courage to do this.
Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?
We’ve abided by Article 50.
The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.
Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
Why would any country invest the time and effort into negotiating an FTA with Britain when it can have no confidence that such an agreement would get past Parliament? It’s not simply a bit of silliness. It goes to the heart of whether Britain is seen as a sensible, pragmatic, reliable, honourable country to do business with.
How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?
What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.
The practical reality is that no country of any trading significance will contemplate a full-blown FTA with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised. On that hinges our attractiveness as a trading partner.
Not quite. We’ll always be an attractive trading partner, but you are right that our flexibility to negotiate a win-win deal with a third party depends on what we negotiate with the EU.
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Project fear.
Excpt this one will come to pass.
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
Very democratic.
If people decide they do not like the way a country is being run and feel it is to their detriment do you think they should be forced to stay and continue to support that country?
Perhaps you also feel that if someone does not like the way they are being treated in a job they should be forced to remain and continue to work in that business to their own detriment?
Indeed, it took the Berlin Wall to keep people living in socialist East Germany from moving to capitalist West Germany
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
If you have never voted Tory I suggest your views on what is best for the Tories and how to avoid leakage to the Brexit Party carry little weight. Trump won, Bolsonaro won, Netanyahu won, Berluconi won and Salvini now leads in Italy, Modi leads in India, the liberal left may not like it but the populist right is winning elections across the world
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
I agree. The Tories are not interested in governing for wealth creators like me. They are the anti-business party. It's bizarre that you support them like I support a football club, though.
I am not and have never been only a pro business Tory, even though I am not a socialist.
Clearly CUK would suit you better than the Tories, certainly the post May Tories and if so so be it
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
I do know a few. They are divided between those who have already moved their money - there are plenty of places to invest, so they don't feel any reason to take a risk in Britain (and they see both Brexit and Corbyn as risks) - and those who are staying put to see how it works out (in some cases because their investments are tied up, in others because they expect to be able to ride out Brexit or a Labour government). I don't know anyone at all who is waiting for the election result before making panic sales at 2am. That is not how serious investors behave.
I think if everyone were only allowed to fly a certain amount of miles per year before they had to pay a lot more to fly that might be a nice idea. Flight tax!
Airlines are exempt from tax on fuel (this is part of an international agreement for obvious reasons). If you wanted to help the environment and create a level playing field with other forms of transport, then making them pay fuel tax internationally would be a good way to go.
The Tories - and the country - need a leader who is prepared to speak some hard truths to them about what is needed for countries to earn their way in the world. Purity tests and a refusal to compromise with anyone outside these shores are the opposite of what is needed. Sadly for them (and us) there is no-one, other than Ken Clarke, with the courage to do this.
Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?
We’ve abided by Article 50.
The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.
Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
Why would any country invest the time and effort into negotiating an FTA with Britain when it can have no confidence that such an agreement would get past Parliament? It’s not simply a bit of silliness. It goes to the heart of whether Britain is seen as a sensible, pragmatic, reliable, honourable country to do business with.
How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?
What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.
The practical reality is that no country of any trading significance will contemplate a full-blown FTA with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised. On that hinges our attractiveness as a trading partner.
Exactly so. And our relationship with the EU won’t be finalised if we go for No Deal because the EU has said plainly that before anything else they will expect agreement on money, citizens’ right and NI.
But try getting these simple facts into the heads of No Deal Tories is a thankless and pointless task. They are determined to blow up our economy because they cannot abide the idea of compromising with a counter-party and don’t care if instability in Northern Ireland leads to more deaths. It is despicable.
Money can and will be settled quickly.
Citizens rights (ignoring whether the EU has competence post no deal) is reciprocal and not that controversial.
Northern Ireland needs a solution but it won’t be the backstop.
Grayling appears to have had some sort of brain transplant. His CV, as outlined in Wikipedia, shows someone who should be able tom handle problems and learn from experience.
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
That assumes that the Tories will retain all their current voters, of course. It could be that the party you are projecting puts off quite a few of the remaining Tory electorate.
Given the same Yougov poll has 48% of 2017 Tories voting Brexit Party or UKIP at the European elections to just 38% voting Tory beyond a trickle that does not really apply either
Wasn't she alleged to be a diabetic or something? Maybe her 1pm illegal drinking is a better indicator?
"...late yesterday astonishing emails emerged where she appeared to admit Labour were lying about her condition.
She is alleged to have told an email prankster pretending to be Jeremy Corbyn’s chief aide: “I am worried about telling untruths about my health which are easily disproved.” "
If so, aren't people like David Lammy & Owen Jones, who applaud her drinking, being somewhat unhelpful and misguided?
I think if everyone were only allowed to fly a certain amount of miles per year before they had to pay a lot more to fly that might be a nice idea. Flight tax!
Airlines are exempt from tax on fuel (this is part of an international agreement for obvious reasons). If you wanted to help the environment and create a level playing field with other forms of transport, then making them pay fuel tax internationally would be a good way to go.
It would devastate the airline industry, though.
Sounds like it should be done. I reckon it will be in a decade or so. Smoking cigarettes used to be encouraged, and diesel cars sold as good for the environment, so things can change.
If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally
I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.
Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.
...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. . ...
I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once. I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.
Pause.
Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?...
I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.
Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.
These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.
So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?
Not very. He’s a lay.
Most Tory members want Brexit above all and they will not trust a Remainer again like May to deliver it, only a Leaver like Boris
It will be up to the MPs. Whatever Leaver they put through to the membership will win. Who is the most comfortable in their skin who performs well on TV?
Potentially TMay could even stay on as PM right through an election campaign...
I'm trying to work out if there has ever been a PM who led the country through an election campaign while acknowledged potential successors slugged it out. I honestly can't think of such a case. Portland in 1808 would be the nearest equivalent, but it wouldn't be a near equivalent as he was party leader even if it was understood Perceval would be taking over in the near future.
Aznar in Spain in 2004
Spain isn't part of the UK, although it would simplify matters Gibraltarian considerably if it was!
If only Mary and Phillip II had clicked.
Reino de España y el Reino Unido de Gran Bretaña, one nation indissoluble.
I know you’re a Scot Nat, and this marriage being successful might have meant no Scottish Succession, but are you really wishing the Inquisition on the English?
Well, it might have acclimatised you to the awful, cruel repression of the EUSSR.
I’ve never used that term and think it’s both trite and diminishing to the terrible wrongs that were done in Communism’s name
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
It all sounds very Brexit to me. The elite will be almost completely unaffected. It will be everyone else who ends up paying.
Except, it was the majority amongst "everyone else" that voted for Brexit.
(Cue the cries of "but they were too stupid to know what they were doing....")
No, they were too trusting in believing that those proposing and campaigning for Brexit were not a collection of monomaniacal shit-for-brains arseholes.
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
Wasn't she alleged to be a diabetic or something? Maybe her 1pm illegal drinking is a better indicator?
"...late yesterday astonishing emails emerged where she appeared to admit Labour were lying about her condition.
She is alleged to have told an email prankster pretending to be Jeremy Corbyn’s chief aide: “I am worried about telling untruths about my health which are easily disproved.” "
If so, aren't people like David Lammy & Owen Jones, who applaud her drinking, being somewhat unhelpful and misguided?
Yes, I think they are being irresponsible about drinking. It is very possible that her diabetes has caused problems in the past.
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
Chamberlain and Lloyd George didn't exactly get on.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
Yes, I must admit I wondered rather how he would react on being called a Conservative, bearing in mind even in 1910 he was still officially a Liberal Unionist. That despite his last real post in politics before his stroke having been as acting leader of the Conservative party in 1906.
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
It all sounds very Brexit to me. The elite will be almost completely unaffected. It will be everyone else who ends up paying.
Except, it was the majority amongst "everyone else" that voted for Brexit.
(Cue the cries of "but they were too stupid to know what they were doing....")
And Corbyn will only win power if he wins an election. Are people too stupid to realise what voting Labour will mean for them?
Chamberlain and Lloyd George didn't exactly get on.
Amusing to reflect that they agreed on everything except Irish Home Rule though. In fact Mr Big One's famous '500 men chosen accidentally from among the unemployed' was presaged by Chamberlain's famous 'they toil not, neither do they spin' characterisation of the Lords in the 1880s (although again ironically by 1910 he had changed his views and saw the Lords as a bulwark against Home Rule).
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
Chamberlain and Lloyd George didn't exactly get on.
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
Any time you need to build a relationship you need F2F
If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally
I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.
Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.
...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. . ...
I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once. I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.
Pause.
Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?...
Potentially TMay could even stay on as PM right through an election campaign...
I'm trying to work out if there has ever been a PM who led the country through an election campaign while acknowledged potential successors slugged it out. I honestly can't think of such a case. Portland in 1808 would be the nearest equivalent, but it wouldn't be a near equivalent as he was party leader even if it was understood Perceval would be taking over in the near future.
Aznar in Spain in 2004
Spain isn't part of the UK, although it would simplify matters Gibraltarian considerably if it was!
If only Mary and Phillip II had clicked.
Reino de España y el Reino Unido de Gran Bretaña, one nation indissoluble.
I know you’re a Scot Nat, and this marriage being successful might have meant no Scottish Succession, but are you really wishing the Inquisition on the English?
Well, it might have acclimatised you to the awful, cruel repression of the EUSSR.
I’ve never used that term and think it’s both trite and diminishing to the terrible wrongs that were done in Communism’s name
Lol, what a pompous old sausage you are!
Not really. There are people who think it is clever to conflate the EU and the USSR. I don’t. The EU is fine as an organisation - I just don’t think it’s a good fit for the UK
If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally
I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.
Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.
...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. . ...
I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once. I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.
Pause.
Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?...
If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally
I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.
Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.
...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. . ...
I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once. I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.
Pause.
Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?...
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
Any time you need to build a relationship you need F2F
I’m sure, but maybe worldwide corporations aren’t a good thing, and even if they were, maybe the damage done to the environment to enable them neutralises that benefit.
Personally I think globalisation is a bad thing on balance, it speeds life up to an unnatural pace, and can’t be done without environmental cost
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Project fear.
Excpt this one will come to pass.
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
International fund managers 40% underweight UK because brexit (that is from a quick Google and 4 months ago, but things haven't changed since then.) Perhaps some forms of capital flight are more equal than others.
I imagine that US fund managers absolutely dwarf uk individuals, however well heeled, in market share.
If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally
I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.
Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.
...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. . ...
I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once. I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.
Pause.
Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?...
It will be the bankers, corporate lawyers, high net worth entrepreneurs, those working at the top end of the biggest corporations moving to Switzerland and Singapore as in the 1970s, obviously it would be more difficult for smaller firms but even some of them might be tempted to sell up and move abroad
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
It all sounds very Brexit to me. The elite will be almost completely unaffected. It will be everyone else who ends up paying.
Except, it was the majority amongst "everyone else" that voted for Brexit.
(Cue the cries of "but they were too stupid to know what they were doing....")
And Corbyn will only win power if he wins an election. Are people too stupid to realise what voting Labour will mean for them?
A fairer society an end to austerity and the rich paying their fair share what's not to like?
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Project fear.
Excpt this one will come to pass.
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
International fund managers 40% underweight UK because brexit (that is from a quick Google and 4 months ago, but things haven't changed since then.) Perhaps some forms of capital flight are more equal than others.
I imagine that US fund managers absolutely dwarf uk individuals, however well heeled, in market share.
One would generally expect the value of shares in a market experiencing capital flight to fall, in the absence of hyperinflation, would one not?
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
Any time you need to build a relationship you need F2F
I’m sure, but maybe worldwide corporations aren’t a good thing, and even if they were, maybe the damage done to the environment to enable them neutralises that benefit.
Personally I think globalisation is a bad thing on balance, it speeds life up to an unnatural pace, and can’t be done without environmental cost
Oddly, though, people who support Green parties tend to like globalisation (not so much free movement of capital, but certainly free movement of people).
If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally
I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.
Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.
...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. . ...
I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once. I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.
Pause.
Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?...
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
True but Chamberlain was a nationalist, imperialist protectionist and still a Tory, not a free market Tory that was the point, the fact he was not a free marketeer was why he left the Liberals for the Tories
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying to implement socialism in practice does not a happy electorate make while half the highest earners in Paris ended up in London when Hollande and the Socialists were in charge. (Given the more free market Macron has now replaced Hollande we could even see the reverse and rich Londoners moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
If no deal means air travel is more difficult, and air travel is killing the planet, why do we think of it as so bad?
That's an interesting question, and I think the answer is the economy.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking for ages that surely business travel is going to diminish with video calls now so ubiquitous? Why fly halfway around the world with all the damage it causes for what is not much more than a vanity exercise?
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
Any time you need to build a relationship you need F2F
I’m sure, but maybe worldwide corporations aren’t a good thing, and even if they were, maybe the damage done to the environment to enable them neutralises that benefit.
Personally I think globalisation is a bad thing on balance, it speeds life up to an unnatural pace, and can’t be done without environmental cost
Oddly, though, people who support Green parties tend to like globalisation (not so much free movement of capital, but certainly free movement of people).
I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.
Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.
These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.
So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?
Not very. He’s a lay.
Most Tory members want Brexit above all and they will not trust a Remainer again like May to deliver it, only a Leaver like Boris
It will be up to the MPs. Whatever Leaver they put through to the membership will win. Who is the most comfortable in their skin who performs well on TV?
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
True but Chamberlain was a nationalist, imperialist protectionist and still a Tory, not a free market Tory that was the point, the fact he was not a free marketeer was why he left the Liberals for the Tories
He was not a Tory whilst Mayor of Birmingham. When he broke with Gladstone in 1885 , he became a Liberal Unionist.
One would generally expect the value of shares in a market experiencing capital flight to fall, in the absence of hyperinflation, would one not?
1. Other things being equal, which they never are. 2. I am guessing that you are looking at the largely international Ftse 100 3. and considering its performance in sterling rather than, say, $ or euro terms; and 4. I dunno, I am not an economist. But I believe what citywire have to say. 40% underweight sounds like capital flight to me.
Basically, the people who will escape will be those Labour is promising to plunder to pay for their schemes.
The people who will ACTUALLY pay for nationalisation and the other crazy shit will be the lower middle class. With their wealth and their jobs.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying rs moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
Sad to say again but Bolsonaro and Trump won and Salvini leads current Italian polls, if the Tories reject Leavers who back a hard Brexit for liberals like you and your family they will end up like the Progressive Conservatives in Canada in 1993, down to less than 10 seats and overtaken as the main party of the right by the Brexit Party as the Progressive Conservatives were overtaken as the main party of the right by the Reform Party. The Progressive Conservatives never got into power alone again, only after merging with Reform's successor the Alliance in 2003 did the Progressive Conservatives get back into power in 2006 as the Conservative Party of Canada under Harper
Why do you think it would have any impact on other countries’ willingness to do a deal with the U.K.?
We’ve abided by Article 50.
The government couldn’t carry the legislature - that happens. Yes there was a bit of silliness with May voting against her own deal, but foreign politicians understand that political silliness happens sometimes.
Life goes on. There will be deals on all sorts of things from flights to medicine.
Why would any country invest the time and effort into negotiating an FTA with Britain when it can have no confidence that such an agreement would get past Parliament? It’s not simply a bit of silliness. It goes to the heart of whether Britain is seen as a sensible, pragmatic, reliable, honourable country to do business with.
How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?
What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.
The US has turned down a bunch of treaties. It’s called the separation of powers.
I’m sure you can point to some idiots who want to welsh not pay our debts, but most I suspect would pay the £15bn or so that we owe just not the transition payments. Which is reasonable.
I think you are understandably stressed about the failures of our political class. But I think you are misreading the realities of the situation as a result.
I am not stressed about the political class. I am furious with them.
I may well be misreading the realities and it will turn out all right. But I have become increasingly gloomy since last autumn and so far my gloom - that MPs won't decide, that the Tories are becoming ever more extreme, that the ERG are becoming like the Militant Tendency of the Tory party, that the EU is losing patience with us, that we are making ourselves as a country look ridiculous, that we are being careless about the effect on Northern Ireland of this insouciant approach to the border issue, that we are wasting time, that the Tories seem far more focused on their personal ambitions and the fate of the Tories than the future of the country - seem to me to be a more accurate reading of events than the blithe optimism which thinks, in the face of all the evidence, that the EU will roll over, that damage is not being done now to Britain's reputation and that, somehow, everyone will revert to voting Tory, despite all this, because Corbyn.
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
It's tempting to view politics through the prism of the Tories' endless student union leadership psychodrama, but occasionally it's worth remembering that out there in the real world the country is falling apart and desperately needs a government that actually gives a shit about our future.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
True but Chamberlain was a nationalist, imperialist protectionist and still a Tory, not a free market Tory that was the point, the fact he was not a free marketeer was why he left the Liberals for the Tories
He was not a Tory whilst Mayor of Birmingham. When he broke with Gladstone in 1885 , he became a Liberal Unionist.
He did not pursue free market policies as Mayor of Birmingham either
One would generally expect the value of shares in a market experiencing capital flight to fall, in the absence of hyperinflation, would one not?
1. Other things being equal, which they never are. 2. I am guessing that you are looking at the largely international Ftse 100 3. and considering its performance in sterling rather than, say, $ or euro terms; and 4. I dunno, I am not an economist. But I believe what citywire have to say. 40% underweight sounds like capital flight to me.
Or the 250, up by a third in the two years following the referendum, albeit struggled a bit in the last 12 months. Or the AIM UK50 which doubled in that time, then fell back by a tbird, and is now rising again.
Somebody once said that the Tories will only turn to Boris when they are 2 - 0 down, with 10 minutes left to play. I suspect that many Tory MPs could now be considering whether Boris is the only person who can save the day.
No. Just no. Lazy, untruthful, a disaster in the only Cabinet job he has held. He has an appalling reputation round the world at a time when Britain needs friends and to forge new relationships. His “fuck business” comment tells business all they need to know about a country which has this clown as its PM or as leader as one of the main parties.
If the Tories insist on seeing everything through some Brexit purity test they deserve to die and the sooner the better.
Well said.
Yep, the Tories see their future as being a hard right English nationalist party. The pragmatic, pro-business, unionist party the Conservative party used to claim to be has died. What a prospect you offer HYUFD - a party that walks shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists, climate change deniers, protectionists, homophobes, Islamophobes and assorted other bigots. Roll on Jeremy Corbyn in that case.
From Derby to Disraeli to Joseph Chamberlain to Enoch Powell the Tories have often been nationalist and even protectionist, they are not the Liberal Party and I believe you are normally Labour and a Remainer anyway
Telling this is your go to move. You seem utterly unconcerned that anyone other than the pure might ever vote Tory.
Disraeli won, Derby won most seats twice, Powell had West Midlands Dockers marching chanting his name, Joseph Chamberlain was several times elected mayor of Birmingham, there are plenty who will vote for a populist right party, Leave would not have won without them
But Joseph Chamberlain was a Radical Liberal when Mayor of Birmingham - often credited with Municipal Socialism.
Chamberlain and Lloyd George didn't exactly get on.
That was Neville Chamberlain.
No, Joe Chamberlain. Lloyd George was anti-Boer War, Chamberlain pro. When LG spoke in Brimingham, the "heckling" involved bricks.
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
Sad to say again but Bolsonaro and Trump won and Salvini leads current Italian polls, if the Tories reject Leavers who back a hard Brexit for liberals like you and your family they will end up like the Progressive Conservatives in Canada in 1993, down to less than 10 seats and overtaken as the main party of the right by the Brexit Party as the Progressive Conservatives were overtaken as the main party of the right by the Reform Party. The Progressive Conservatives never got into power alone again, only after merging with Reform's successor the Alliance in 2003 did the Progressive Conservatives get back into power in 2006 as the Conservative Party of Canada under Harper
Turn your back on the voters of the future and see where that gets you. There are some in your party who get this. Not you. It's not sad for me. But for the party you support.
You are making yourself irrelevant. What is very much worse you are prepared to abandon your values by emulating people who explicitly reject liberal values, who embrace illiberalism, intolerance and bigotry.
One would generally expect the value of shares in a market experiencing capital flight to fall, in the absence of hyperinflation, would one not?
1. Other things being equal, which they never are. 2. I am guessing that you are looking at the largely international Ftse 100 3. and considering its performance in sterling rather than, say, $ or euro terms; and 4. I dunno, I am not an economist. But I believe what citywire have to say. 40% underweight sounds like capital flight to me.
Or the 250, up by a third in the two years following the referendum, albeit struggled a bit in the last 12 months. Or the AIM UK50 which doubled in that time, then fell back by a tbird, and is now rising again.
Excellent. Not clear why you prefer unreliable proxies for data when you have the actual data, though.
If you’d read the thread I didn’t name my source originally
I had a rather rude response from ManchesterKurt. So I sourced the comment. Not gratuitous.
Andy was a client at the time (or at least Boots was) and I haven’t seen him since he quit to run GalaCoral in 2011.
...You should take a leaf from RCS's book; he does it [namedropping] sparingly and with style. . ...
I was in a pub quiz with David Speigelhalter once. I once spoke to the head of the American Statistical Association and the head of Eurostat in a conference dinner.
Pause.
Look, it counts as namedropping in my world, OK?...
Good grief to read all these Tory bedwetters getting in a funk over a Corbyn government!...
"after 5 years of a Corbyn government we may have turned into Venezuela", "Britain won't exist after Corbyn gets his hands on it.", "[Labour will] nationalise half the economy" and "see businesses run a mile" etc.
Just stop and think for a moment:
Any Corbyn led government will be tempered by the large swathe of moderate Labour MPs and (most probably) the need to work with coalition partners.
The most likely route to Britain no longer existing is not a Corbyn government but a Tory-led No Deal followed by and independence vote in Scotland and a united Ireland vote in NI. (And I can't see Wales staying long in Little Britain after that tbh!)
And as for 'businesses running a mile' - I presume you mean any that have not been put off already by our 'fuck business' ex-Foreign Sec and prospective PM, or by the continuing uncertainty of the Brexit fiasco.
Come on guys, it might not be what you want, it might not be good for you personally, but get a grip and stop being such pathetic snowflakes - a Corbyn government would not be the end of days!
What will temper Corbyn's ambitions won't be his MPs, all jockeying for ministerial posts and real power and deleting all their internet history where they said what a disaster Corbyn will be. No, it will be a lack of cash. And the inability to get his hands on cash at anything like reasonable rates. He will be hamstrung from day one, by the biggest flight of capital any G8 country will have ever seen - and it will have happened in the hours after the exit poll, before McDonnell ever steps inside Number 11.
Project fear.
Excpt this one will come to pass.
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
Very democratic.
If people decide they do not like the way a country is being run and feel it is to their detriment do you think they should be forced to stay and continue to support that country?
Perhaps you also feel that if someone does not like the way they are being treated in a job they should be forced to remain and continue to work in that business to their own detriment?
My point was the implication that people with 'serious money' have political judgements of more value than those of us in the lower deciles.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying to implement socialism in practice does not a happy electorate make while half the highest earners in Paris ended up in London when Hollande and the Socialists were in charge. (Given the more free market Macron has now replaced Hollande we could even see the reverse and rich Londoners moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
Why would any country invest the time and effort into negotiating an FTA with Britain when it can have no confidence that such an agreement would get past Parliament? It’s not simply a bit of silliness. It goes to the heart of whether Britain is seen as a sensible, pragmatic, reliable, honourable country to do business with.
How could it trust Britain to honour its legal obligations when the no-dealers don’t want us to pay a penny of the money we legally owe the EU?
What sort of a country talks like this, for God’s sake. It may be the Little Britain of Nigel Farage’s dreams. It is not the Britain I want to see or thought I lived in.
The US has turned down a bunch of treaties. It’s called the separation of powers.
I’m sure you can point to some idiots who want to welsh not pay our debts, but most I suspect would pay the £15bn or so that we owe just not the transition payments. Which is reasonable.
I think you are understandably stressed about the failures of our political class. But I think you are misreading the realities of the situation as a result.
I am not stressed about the political class. I am furious with them.
I may well be misreading the realities and it will turn out all right. But I have become increasingly gloomy since last autumn and so far my gloom - that MPs won't decide, that the Tories are becoming ever more extreme, that the ERG are becoming like the Militant Tendency of the Tory party, that the EU is losing patience with us, that we are making ourselves as a country look ridiculous, that we are being careless about the effect on Northern Ireland of this insouciant approach to the border issue, that we are wasting time, that the Tories seem far more focused on their personal ambitions and the fate of the Tories than the future of the country - seem to me to be a more accurate reading of events than the blithe optimism which thinks, in the face of all the evidence, that the EU will roll over, that damage is not being done now to Britain's reputation and that, somehow, everyone will revert to voting Tory, despite all this, because Corbyn.
I said stressed about their failures, not about them! Our political class haven’t earned the right for you to give a shit about them.
I don’t disagree with your second paragraph in general (not time to go through the specifics).
But I do disagree with the conclusion that it will mean no one signs a deal with the U.K. in future. They will if it’s s good deal for them and won’t if it’s bad deal. Plus ca change.
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
He is interested in purity rather than reaching out - he tried to persuade TSE he was a LibDem not a Conservative for goodness sakes
To the outsider - like me - he seems to speak like many Tories, at least as reported in the press. Sensible pragmatic liberal Tories seem awfully thin on the ground. The Tories are coming across as illiberal and nasty and destructive in their pursuit of some sort of utopia, apparently motivated only by dislike of foreigners.
I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.
Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.
These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.
So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?
Not very. He’s a lay.
Most Tory members want Brexit above all and they will not trust a Remainer again like May to deliver it, only a Leaver like Boris
It will be up to the MPs. Whatever Leaver they put through to the membership will win. Who is the most comfortable in their skin who performs well on TV?
Boris
Not a details man and too much past history. He's only a leaver because it is politically expedient.
I question the consensus that if Boris Johnson makes the final two he will win. I doubt he would.
Think about it. If the contest is this summer, which is likely, the membership will be conscious that they are choosing not just their next party leader but an individual to assume the mantle of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. That is a massive responsibility for those doing the choosing and they are going to feel it. It will weigh heavily.
These are not ordinary feckless members of the public, remember, they are fully paid up members of the Conservative Party. They have a higher than average sense of propriety and civic duty. That is one of the reasons they joined in the first place. They are also a lot older than most people, meaning that although teeth may be in short supply, wisdom is not.
So bearing all of this in mind, how likely is it, despite what we are told by ‘polls’, that when push comes to shove this august body of electors will foist a man as unfit for office as Boris Johnson on a horrified nation?
Not very. He’s a lay.
Most Tory members want Brexit above all and they will not trust a Remainer again like May to deliver it, only a Leaver like Boris
It will be up to the MPs. Whatever Leaver they put through to the membership will win. Who is the most comfortable in their skin who performs well on TV?
Boris
Not a details man and too much past history. He's only a leaver because it is politically expedient.
Yet Tory members appear to prefer someone who became a Leaver five minutes before the referendum for reasons of ambition and self-interest to others who became Leavers five minutes after for reasons of principle and democracy.
Exactly, the super rich can move abroad to escape Corbyn, it will be the middle class who will face the brunt of the Corbyn tax hikes, as Francois Hollande discovered in France trying to implement socialism in practice does not a happy electorate make while half the highest earners in Paris ended up in London when Hollande and the Socialists were in charge. (Given the more free market Macron has now replaced Hollande we could even see the reverse and rich Londoners moving to Paris if Corbyn and Labour get in)
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
He is interested in purity rather than reaching out - he tried to persuade TSE he was a LibDem not a Conservative for goodness sakes
Says the man who clearly cannot be bothered to read the latest Yougov poll showing 20% of 2017 Tories voting Brexit Party or UKIP at the next general election and 48% of 2017 Tories voting Brexit Party or UKIP at the next European elections. Unless those Tory Leavers are brought back the Tories will certainly lose the next general election.
I also voted Remain at the Referendum unlike you but beating Corbyn must be the priority
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the Tories at the next election. Well, it won’t. The Tories are exhausted, insane, hell-bent on civil war and seemingly determined to inflict the worst possible type of Brexit on the country. For them then to turn round and claim that a Corbyn government will be a disaster will invite derision, even from those who ought to be their natural supporters or, at least, persuadable.
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have to regain the 24% of 2017 Tory voters who now say they would back the Brexit Party or UKIP, given only 7% of 2017 Tories now say they would vote Labour, CUK or LD it is clear which voters the Tories must target and sadly for you it is not you
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
He is interested in purity rather than reaching out - he tried to persuade TSE he was a LibDem not a Conservative for goodness sakes
To the outsider - like me - he seems to speak like many Tories, at least as reported in the press. Sensible pragmatic liberal Tories seem awfully thin on the ground. The Tories are coming across as illiberal and nasty and destructive in their pursuit of some sort of utopia, apparently motivated only by dislike of foreigners.
If anything he is more moderate than the current ascendency, which says much about where the party seems now to be.
The way the Tories are behaving is making the prospect of a Corbyn government ever more likely. You think, complacently, that fear of Corbyn will help the be “fuck off” right back.
No, I explained the reality of a Corbyn government will help the Tories in opposition if Corbyn wins the next general election. To beat Corbyn at the next general election the Tories have
It's not sad for me. But for your party. You've lost two voters in a marginal seat with a Tory MP, one of whom used regularly to vote Tory. You also won't get any votes from our three children.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
Sad to say again but Bolsonaro and Trump won and Salvini leads current Italian polls, if the Tories reject Leavers who back a hard Brexit for liberals like you and your family they will end up like the Progressive Conservatives in Canada in 1993, down to less than 10 seats and overtaken as the main party of the right by the Brexit Party as the Progressive Conservatives were overtaken as the main party of the right by the Reform Party. The Progressive Conservatives never got into power alone again, only after merging with Reform's successor the Alliance in 2003 did the Progressive Conservatives get back into power in 2006 as the Conservative Party of Canada under Harper
Turn your back on the voters of the future and see where that gets you. There are some in your party who get this. Not you. It's not sad for me. But for the party you support.
You are making yourself irrelevant. What is very much worse you are prepared to abandon your values by emulating people who explicitly reject liberal values, who embrace illiberalism, intolerance and bigotry.
That is very sad. For your party.
The majority of Tory voters voted Leave, if the party rejects them it will not have a future. It is as simple as that. The future will be the Brexit Party not the Tory Party at least for a generation or more
I actually thought he was Labour at first - I'm sure it was him who was constantly cheerleading for Andy Burnham as leader for a while.
I said Andy Burnham was the best choice for Labour leader in 2015 and I stick by that, he could even have beaten May in 2017, I still would have voted Tory over Burnham Labour though
I suppose the first question to ask is whether the Conservatives would support a minority Brexit Party administration? Perhaps we'll leave that for another day.
The other observation is parties have two choices - either go to where the voters are or bring the voters (or hope they will come) to them. The former is usually the more expedient option - Blair accurately worked out he could attract Conservative voters not by trying to turn the clock back to 1979 but by persuading them he could run a post-Thatcher economy and society more fairly and successfully then the Conservatives. In doing so, he made the Labour party a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left for whom significant numbers who had voted Conservative from 1979-92 could vote -.
The latter relies on leaders seeing how the wind is blowing and waiting for opinion to come their way - Thatcher arguably did that and Corbyn is trying the same.
The problem is in a polarised and divided electorate 50% of the electorate aren't going to be where you are at any given time. The challenge then is to maximise your share of the divided spoils. The Conservatives face a serious if not existential challenge from the Brexit Party which can not only attract their own supporters but could get those who would never vote Conservative.
The other side is split Labour-LD-CUK. So in effect both sides have a dominating group now under pressure from formerly smaller rivals who see the potential to divide and overwhelm the giant. It probably won't happen on either side but it might.
The prize will be won by the side gaining more of their faction or more accurately losing less of theirs.
Comments
But as we have seen you don’t even want to persuade. As we have seen on this thread the Tories’ approach to anyone who does not believe in an ultra pure Brexit is “fuck off”. Well, as far as this voter is concerned, the response at the next election will be “fuck off” right back.
IMO the majority of Tories are overwhelmingly focused on finding someone who will deliver a meaningful Brexit and is potentially an election-winner - they see everything else as secondary, such as depth, energy, integrity, or ability to bring people together.
Rightly or wrongly, much of our business is predicated on air travel - both for people and freight. If freight air travel becomes more difficult, it will be harder and/or more difficult to bring in cheap tat / vital goods (delete as applicable). In the case of people, it would deter foreigners from coming here on holiday, but may also encourage more staycations in the UK.
Oddly enough, t'Internet may make business travel the least affected in the short term.
Basically: air travel has become an integral part of the economy. Managing without it, or making it more difficult, would lead to a period of major adjustment that would hurt.
It doesn't mean the adjustment wouldn't be advantageous in the ling term, though, especially if other countries also make air travel harder.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/04/18/voting-intention-conservatives-29-labour-30-16-17-
If you doubt me, talk to some people with serious money....
To be honest, I hate flying and probably am just thinking up arguments that make it seem
Unnecessary, but I really think the ability to move at such an unnatural pace must be a net bad.
11/03/17 - Scottish independence: Jeremy Corbyn says indyref2 'absolutely fine
20/09/18 - Jeremy Corbyn has said he is "not ruling out" giving consent for a second referendum on Scottish independence
23/09/18 - Labour to block new Scottish independence vote - BBC News
04/03/19 - On a second independence referendum he said: “I’m of the view that a referendum took place in 2014 it was supposed to be a once in a lifetime decision.
As an example, a friend of mine is currently in the Far East for a few months visiting a couple of factories as they bring up a new product, to ensure compliance. That would be very hard / impossible to do via video, as he needs to be able to stick his nose in various areas that they may not be keen for him to see.
I never did a vast amount of business travel (thank f***), but I don't think any of them could have been done via teleconference - and being tech firms, the ones that could be were (annoyingly often on bank holidays). There's also definitely something in being able to get to know someone you're doing business with - even having an after-hours drink can help.
But PB's frequent business flyer's club would be able to say more ...
It's the poor wot get the blame....
Conferences, on the other hand, are just as easy to arrange as teleconferences, and those are increasing.
(Cue the cries of "but they were too stupid to know what they were doing....")
I’m sure you can point to some idiots who want to welsh not pay our debts, but most I suspect would pay the £15bn or so that we owe just not the transition payments. Which is reasonable.
I think you are understandably stressed about the failures of our political class. But I think you are misreading the realities of the situation as a result.
Perhaps you also feel that if someone does not like the way they are being treated in a job they should be forced to remain and continue to work in that business to their own detriment?
Clearly CUK would suit you better than the Tories, certainly the post May Tories and if so so be it
It would devastate the airline industry, though.
Citizens rights (ignoring whether the EU has competence post no deal) is reciprocal and not that controversial.
Northern Ireland needs a solution but it won’t be the backstop.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/04/18/voting-intention-conservatives-29-labour-30-16-17-
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3741280/diane-abbott-pulled-from-bbc-radio-interview-for-being-unwell-before-falling-for-prank-email-exposing-lies/
Wasn't she alleged to be a diabetic or something? Maybe her 1pm illegal drinking is a better indicator?
"...late yesterday astonishing emails emerged where she appeared to admit Labour were lying about her condition.
She is alleged to have told an email prankster pretending to be Jeremy Corbyn’s chief aide: “I am worried about telling untruths about my health which are easily disproved.” "
If so, aren't people like David Lammy & Owen Jones, who applaud her drinking, being somewhat unhelpful and misguided?
Personally I think globalisation is a bad thing on balance, it speeds life up to an unnatural pace, and can’t be done without environmental cost
International fund managers 40% underweight UK because brexit (that is from a quick Google and 4 months ago, but things haven't changed since then.) Perhaps some forms of capital flight are more equal than others.
I imagine that US fund managers absolutely dwarf uk individuals, however well heeled, in market share.
Now you may well gain others.
But you should consider whether it is possible that you will not gain such votes - or not enough of them - and will lose more voters repelled by the Tories turning into a party which thinks that people like Bolsonaro, Trump and Salvini are those it should emulate.
2. I am guessing that you are looking at the largely international Ftse 100
3. and considering its performance in sterling rather than, say, $ or euro terms; and
4. I dunno, I am not an economist. But I believe what citywire have to say. 40% underweight sounds like capital flight to me.
I am not stressed about the political class. I am furious with them.
I may well be misreading the realities and it will turn out all right. But I have become increasingly gloomy since last autumn and so far my gloom - that MPs won't decide, that the Tories are becoming ever more extreme, that the ERG are becoming like the Militant Tendency of the Tory party, that the EU is losing patience with us, that we are making ourselves as a country look ridiculous, that we are being careless about the effect on Northern Ireland of this insouciant approach to the border issue, that we are wasting time, that the Tories seem far more focused on their personal ambitions and the fate of the Tories than the future of the country - seem to me to be a more accurate reading of events than the blithe optimism which thinks, in the face of all the evidence, that the EU will roll over, that damage is not being done now to Britain's reputation and that, somehow, everyone will revert to voting Tory, despite all this, because Corbyn.
You are making yourself irrelevant. What is very much worse you are prepared to abandon your values by emulating people who explicitly reject liberal values, who embrace illiberalism, intolerance and bigotry.
That is very sad. For your party.
He is interested in purity rather than reaching out - he tried to persuade TSE he was a LibDem not a Conservative for goodness sakes
I don’t disagree with your second paragraph in general (not time to go through the specifics).
But I do disagree with the conclusion that it will mean no one signs a deal with the U.K. in future. They will if it’s s good deal for them and won’t if it’s bad deal. Plus ca change.
I also voted Remain at the Referendum unlike you but beating Corbyn must be the priority
I actually thought he was Labour at first - I'm sure it was him who was constantly cheerleading for Andy Burnham as leader for a while.
I suppose the first question to ask is whether the Conservatives would support a minority Brexit Party administration? Perhaps we'll leave that for another day.
The other observation is parties have two choices - either go to where the voters are or bring the voters (or hope they will come) to them. The former is usually the more expedient option - Blair accurately worked out he could attract Conservative voters not by trying to turn the clock back to 1979 but by persuading them he could run a post-Thatcher economy and society more fairly and successfully then the Conservatives. In doing so, he made the Labour party a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left for whom significant numbers who had voted Conservative from 1979-92 could vote -.
The latter relies on leaders seeing how the wind is blowing and waiting for opinion to come their way - Thatcher arguably did that and Corbyn is trying the same.
The problem is in a polarised and divided electorate 50% of the electorate aren't going to be where you are at any given time. The challenge then is to maximise your share of the divided spoils. The Conservatives face a serious if not existential challenge from the Brexit Party which can not only attract their own supporters but could get those who would never vote Conservative.
The other side is split Labour-LD-CUK. So in effect both sides have a dominating group now under pressure from formerly smaller rivals who see the potential to divide and overwhelm the giant. It probably won't happen on either side but it might.
The prize will be won by the side gaining more of their faction or more accurately losing less of theirs.