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  • IanB2 said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    Yes, I realise you wouldn't double capacity for the reasons you mention. However I don't think the Australian train I posted the video of would cause big increases in length of stops, as there are just 5 small steps up and 5 small steps down. The whole thing is brilliantly designed.
    The Dutch ones are similar, and seem to work well at stations even when frequent.
    and Germany, Switzerland and all the other countries with far larger loading gauges than the UK.

    What people seem to be saying is double decker trains are a good thing for the future, well only new build railway lines can deliver them given the constraints of the existing network.

    Get building HS2 and a whole heap of other new lines to enable these double decker trains.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian Mrs Sandpit is watching their local TV news with her mouth wide open.

    It’s like the U.K. had directly elected Paul Eddington to replace Margaret Thatcher.
    If you have a choice between the candidate of what many see as a corrupt establishment and somebody who looks pleasant and you know nothing about, the choice seems logical. Perhaps he'll even get a peace deal.
    Indeed so. Rather like in a lot of places right now, Ukrainians are in a mood to give a massive kick up the arse to the political establishment. Their currency has lost more than 75%of its value to the US$ in the past five years.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,714
    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With "please don't stand up between stations" notices.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited April 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    .......Then you want a President? After Brexit the least number of questions we put to a plebiscite the better!

    Yes. Fingers crossed that Corbyn is well though a replacement (other than John McD) would almost certainly give Remain a boost.

    Well done Sunil. Fascinating. Follow up with details of the 18 scandals and you could be published....

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Sunil burnishes his credentials as biggest wonk on PB.

    Should I be worried that I find it interesting?

    Very interesting Sunil, thanks.


    Thanks to Sunil for the interesting piece -

    You're welcome!
    Sunil

    re our offsite chat.. Is the Royal Deeside railway the shortest in the UK/World/Universe?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    Yes, I realise you wouldn't double capacity for the reasons you mention. However I don't think the Australian train I posted the video of would cause big increases in length of stops, as there are just 5 small steps up and 5 small steps down. The whole thing is brilliantly designed.
    I think a difference of 60cm if height difference between Australian and UK trains is rather significant in this discussion.

    I am sure the trains are incredibly well designed, but with 60cm less in the UK and a requirement to put the engine somewhere (normally under the floor) reality is you are not going to comfortably travel on double decker trains on the WCML as a way of creating extra capacity.

    Funnily enough before HS2 was a thing options like this were considered and disregarded for this very reason.
    Engine placement is less an issue. Usually those sort of bi-level cars are loco/hauled or the end cars of each unit are single-level and have the engines in them. Or they’re EMUs where the electrical gear is small enough to be distributed through the unit.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Can he do Trump?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    4. Bait and switch. If Corbyn is not going to be PM it’s fraud by misrepresentation* firchim to campaign as leader of one of the parties vying to be in power

    * yes I know that’s legally not the case but seemed the simplest way to convey the concept
    Even simpler would be to invite voters to remember the transitions to John Major, Gordon Brown and Theresa May herself rather than have a fit of the vapours at parties changing leader in government. Especially if Theresa May herself will also have been replaced by then.
    It’s not a change in government - that happens - it’s a change within a few days of the election which suggests lack of transparency.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!
    But less good for speed ...
    Class 442s managed 108 mph, more than adequate for commuter services!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    For anyone who has seen WWII footage of locals being encouraged to beat Jews to death by their Nazi 'liberators', this should be particularly horrible.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1119999493695574016
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,491

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    The Australian train I posted the video of is 4m 27 high. We run trains on the UK rail network that are that tall. I don't see the arguments against it stacking up (pun intended).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    If you just look at the section of the graph from 1992 to now - which is still a relatively long historical period of over twenty five years - there really isn't any obvious trend. The downward trend postwar was between the sixties and eighties. Probably a combination of improved longevity reducing deaths, and fewer resignations once third parties made almost no by-election safe, from Orpington onwards.

    I haven’t read the piece yet...

    But my recollection was that the Blair landscape wiped out a bunch of middle ranked Tories and replaced them with Labour candidates that wouldn’t have normally won so - in average - were younger. This reduced the number of deaths in the 1997 parliament last and beyond
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!

    Unprotected 3rd/4th rail in new installations is illegal in the UK, although existing installations can be extended

    Sadly it probably wouldn’t be financially feasible to convert the existing SE third-rail network from open to protected third-rail. It works a treat here in NY on the Metro-North: we never have problems with icing on the third rail.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    For anyone who has seen WWII footage of locals being encouraged to beat Jews to death by their Nazi 'liberators', this should be particularly horrible.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1119999493695574016

    Unbelievable.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 921
    edited April 2019

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    The Australian train I posted the video of is 4m 27 high. We run trains on the UK rail network that are that tall. I don't see the arguments against it stacking up (pun intended).
    Where do we run trains with a clearance of 4.27m on the UK railway ?

    The full WCML that HS2 is designed to resolve is 2.90m.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    For anyone who has seen WWII footage of locals being encouraged to beat Jews to death by their Nazi 'liberators', this should be particularly horrible.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1119999493695574016

    I haven’t seen that footage. But this is still particularly horrible
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Sri Lanka

    If you are to believe the rumours, the finger is pointing to Islamic extremists with external support. The leaking of the actual intelligence documents alerting to the possibility of such attacks seems rather political in its timing though.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    4. Bait and switch. If Corbyn is not going to be PM it’s fraud by misrepresentation* firchim to campaign as leader of one of the parties vying to be in power

    * yes I know that’s legally not the case but seemed the simplest way to convey the concept
    Even simpler would be to invite voters to remember the transitions to John Major, Gordon Brown and Theresa May herself rather than have a fit of the vapours at parties changing leader in government. Especially if Theresa May herself will also have been replaced by then.
    It’s not a change in government - that happens - it’s a change within a few days of the election which suggests lack of transparency.
    That part sounds a bit far-fetched. Even if the rumour you heard is correct, Corbyn can't be fit enough to run the campaign without people noticing anything amiss, then fit for the knacker's yard the day after.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    For anyone who has seen WWII footage of locals being encouraged to beat Jews to death by their Nazi 'liberators', this should be particularly horrible.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1119999493695574016

    Now THAT’s anti-semitism.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    I have heard rumours before about major public figures who have life threatening illnesses. The one I am thinking of was supposed to die 25 - 30 years ago but is still with us now! These things probably start after a few too many drinks and then people remember only some of the conversation and the rumour gets given authenticity and spreads among the chattering classes.


    An interesting question is do you believe in conspiracy theories?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Streeter said:

    For anyone who has seen WWII footage of locals being encouraged to beat Jews to death by their Nazi 'liberators', this should be particularly horrible.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1119999493695574016

    Now THAT’s anti-semitism.
    Exactly.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited April 2019

    The Australian train I posted the video of is 4m 27 high. We run trains on the UK rail network that are that tall. I don't see the arguments against it stacking up (pun intended).

    Where do we run trains with a clearance of 4.27m on the UK railway ?

    The full WCML that HS2 is designed to resolve is 2.90m.

    Although that’s the maximum container height, on a truck 1.1m high. I believe NR is heightening the loading gauge on some freight corridors e.g. from the Midlands down to Southampton Docks, but that’s a lot different from increasing the loading gauge on the whole length of a useful passenger route that passes through lots of town centres that tend to have lots of bridges and tunnels to deal with.

    Also the existing WCML passenger stock, the Pendolinos, tilt, so their profile has a noticeable narrowing towards the roof on just one deck. You might he able to make the WCML gauge higher enough for a second deck, but would that deck be wide enough to be usable?
  • rpjs said:

    The Australian train I posted the video of is 4m 27 high. We run trains on the UK rail network that are that tall. I don't see the arguments against it stacking up (pun intended).

    Where do we run trains with a clearance of 4.27m on the UK railway ?

    The full WCML that HS2 is designed to resolve is 2.90m.

    Although that’s the maximum container height, on a truck 1.1m high. I believe NR is heightening the loading gauge on some freight corridors e.g. from the Midlands down to Southampton Docks, but that’s a lot different from increasing the loading gauge on the whole length of a useful passenger route that passes through lots of town centres that tend to have lots of bridges and tunnels to deal with.

    Also the existing WCML passenger stock, the Pendolinos, tilt, so their profile has a noticeable narrowing towards the roof on just one deck. You might he able to make the WCML gauge higher enough for a second deck, but would that deck be wide enough to be usable?
    I travel Manc to Euston almost weekly on the Pendos

    There are numerous tunnels between Milton Keynes and Colwich Junction that have notably minimal clearance for a Pendo, a train that has the top corners shaved off to fit on the UK railway.

    To suggest you could run double decker trains on the WCML without tremendous investment and disruption is naïve in the extreme.

    Much cheaper, much less disruptive and much more beneficial to build a new line with none of the constraints that the existing WCML has.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    I have heard rumours before about major public figures who have life threatening illnesses. The one I am thinking of was supposed to die 25 - 30 years ago but is still with us now! These things probably start after a few too many drinks and then people remember only some of the conversation and the rumour gets given authenticity and spreads among the chattering classes.


    An interesting question is do you believe in conspiracy theories?
    Only when they are true...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,039
    If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.

    Are there really that many civil servants traveling to/from the Midlands on a daily basis?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    To be fair Heathrow expansion is out of the hands of government, and into the hands of a private company. And the courts of course...
  • If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.

    Why do you say that?

    From my experience the WCML is getting far busier year by year in the peak hour at a time of public sector cut backs

    Most capitalist economies improve connectivity between populations to improve output, often through the railway.

    South Korea - fastest broadband on the planet building vast high speed railway network.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,039
    RobD said:

    If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.

    Are there really that many civil servants traveling to/from the Midlands on a daily basis?
    There's more to it than that. Event organisers choose London venues to get politicians and civil servants to attend, so the rest of us have to travel down to London. Likewise for anyone with a meeting in a government department. Plenty of work that currently involves travel to London could be done in Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Newcastle.
  • RobD said:

    If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.

    Are there really that many civil servants traveling to/from the Midlands on a daily basis?
    There's more to it than that. Event organisers choose London venues to get politicians and civil servants to attend, so the rest of us have to travel down to London. Likewise for anyone with a meeting in a government department. Plenty of work that currently involves travel to London could be done in Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Newcastle.
    Most people on the WCML travelling on peak are not working for the state.

    You just need to walk along a train looking at the asset tags on laptops to know that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    To be fair Heathrow expansion is out of the hands of government, and into the hands of a private company. And the courts of course...
    Do we not still have the planning process, the appeal to the planning process, the judicial review of the appeal to the planning process, the appeal to the judicial review, the public enquiry and then assorted Swampys getting in the way, before the required land can be purchased and cleared?
  • HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.

    Are there really that many civil servants traveling to/from the Midlands on a daily basis?
    Everyone coming to meet ministers : civil servants plus all the companies that locate their hq near Westminster
  • Charles said:

    RobD said:

    If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.

    Are there really that many civil servants traveling to/from the Midlands on a daily basis?
    Everyone coming to meet ministers : civil servants plus all the companies that locate their hq near Westminster
    So probably only a tiny proportion of the 1,650 hourly seats from Manc and Brum each hour then ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,714
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    WRT HS2, it depends on how you define 'spades in the ground'. Archaeological works along the route have been going on for a few years now, but I doubt that's what you mean ...

    Enabling works have also been ongoing for some time: there has been widespread demolition at Euston, and the Old Oak Common site's been cleared. There's work going on in Birmingham, and I believe the site for one of the tunnel portals in the Chilterns, where the TBM's will be launched for their drive, is being organised. There's almost certainly others I have missed.

    Main construction work should start later this year (delayed from the end of 2018).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    rpjs said:

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!

    Unprotected 3rd/4th rail in new installations is illegal in the UK, although existing installations can be extended

    Sadly it probably wouldn’t be financially feasible to convert the existing SE third-rail network from open to protected third-rail. It works a treat here in NY on the Metro-North: we never have problems with icing on the third rail.
    Do you mean bottom contact? The DLR has had that since 1987.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,039

    RobD said:

    If we moved parliament and government departments away from London, the number of journeys into London could be greatly reduced. No need for HS2.

    Are there really that many civil servants traveling to/from the Midlands on a daily basis?
    There's more to it than that. Event organisers choose London venues to get politicians and civil servants to attend, so the rest of us have to travel down to London. Likewise for anyone with a meeting in a government department. Plenty of work that currently involves travel to London could be done in Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds or Newcastle.
    Most people on the WCML travelling on peak are not working for the state.

    You just need to walk along a train looking at the asset tags on laptops to know that.
    Correct. But we often have to travel to London to attend meetings, conferences, etc. that are only there because it is the seat of government.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    WRT HS2, it depends on how you define 'spades in the ground'. Archaeological works along the route have been going on for a few years now, but I doubt that's what you mean ...

    Enabling works have also been ongoing for some time: there has been widespread demolition at Euston, and the Old Oak Common site's been cleared. There's work going on in Birmingham, and I believe the site for one of the tunnel portals in the Chilterns, where the TBM's will be launched for their drive, is being organised. There's almost certainly others I have missed.

    Main construction work should start later this year (delayed from the end of 2018).
    No daily Parliamentary trains from South Ruislip to Paddington, they have been diverted to West Ealing.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Streeter said:

    For anyone who has seen WWII footage of locals being encouraged to beat Jews to death by their Nazi 'liberators', this should be particularly horrible.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1119999493695574016

    Now THAT’s anti-semitism.
    "Two lovers kissing amongst the scream of midnight
    Two lovers missing the tranquillity of solitude
    Getting a cab and travelling on buses
    Reading the murals that use Jewish banker tropes, I said..."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    WRT HS2, it depends on how you define 'spades in the ground'. Archaeological works along the route have been going on for a few years now, but I doubt that's what you mean ...

    Enabling works have also been ongoing for some time: there has been widespread demolition at Euston, and the Old Oak Common site's been cleared. There's work going on in Birmingham, and I believe the site for one of the tunnel portals in the Chilterns, where the TBM's will be launched for their drive, is being organised. There's almost certainly others I have missed.

    Main construction work should start later this year (delayed from the end of 2018).
    That’s further on than I thought it was to be honest, but it’s been more than two years since the authorising Bill passed Parliament in February 2017 - a decade after it was first proposed.

    It really shouldn’t take 20 years to build a 100 mile line from London to Birmingham.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    To be fair Heathrow expansion is out of the hands of government, and into the hands of a private company. And the courts of course...
    Do we not still have the planning process, the appeal to the planning process, the judicial review of the appeal to the planning process, the appeal to the judicial review, the public enquiry and then assorted Swampys getting in the way, before the required land can be purchased and cleared?
    We're at stage three of your list, with the JR of the appeal to the planning process (more or less).
  • tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    rpjs said:

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!

    Unprotected 3rd/4th rail in new installations is illegal in the UK, although existing installations can be extended

    Sadly it probably wouldn’t be financially feasible to convert the existing SE third-rail network from open to protected third-rail. It works a treat here in NY on the Metro-North: we never have problems with icing on the third rail.
    Do you mean bottom contact? The DLR has had that since 1987.
    Well, I hope it is consensual!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,039
    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness' sake. "Former council candidates". That includes someone who stood for one of the seven Little Snorting Parish Council seats in 1997 and didn't get in. If only 32 of 895 can manage that level of engagement, colour me unimpressed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rpjs said:

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!

    Unprotected 3rd/4th rail in new installations is illegal in the UK, although existing installations can be extended

    Sadly it probably wouldn’t be financially feasible to convert the existing SE third-rail network from open to protected third-rail. It works a treat here in NY on the Metro-North: we never have problems with icing on the third rail.
    Do you mean bottom contact? The DLR has had that since 1987.
    Yes, with plastic sheaving over the rail.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
  • Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    WRT HS2, it depends on how you define 'spades in the ground'. Archaeological works along the route have been going on for a few years now, but I doubt that's what you mean ...

    Enabling works have also been ongoing for some time: there has been widespread demolition at Euston, and the Old Oak Common site's been cleared. There's work going on in Birmingham, and I believe the site for one of the tunnel portals in the Chilterns, where the TBM's will be launched for their drive, is being organised. There's almost certainly others I have missed.

    Main construction work should start later this year (delayed from the end of 2018).
    That’s further on than I thought it was to be honest, but it’s been more than two years since the authorising Bill passed Parliament in February 2017 - a decade after it was first proposed.

    It really shouldn’t take 20 years to build a 100 mile line from London to Birmingham.
    It is remarkable to reflect the original WCML - the London and Birmingham Railway - launched its first prospectus in 1830 and opened for passenger traffic throughout in 1838. Admittedly, the first proposals were put forward in 1823. The Great Western Railway was conceived in 1833 and opened in 1841.

    And it's also amusing to reflect local opposition by landlords severely slowed matters down then as well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
    Do the footballers all play in their socks?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.

    It has been done - the National Infrastructure Commission has done some interesting work.

    Lord Adonis was put in charge ... ;)
    Are they actually doing, or are they still talking about doing? How many spades in the ground along the HS2 route or at Heathrow?
    WRT HS2, it depends on how you define 'spades in the ground'. Archaeological works along the route have been going on for a few years now, but I doubt that's what you mean ...

    Enabling works have also been ongoing for some time: there has been widespread demolition at Euston, and the Old Oak Common site's been cleared. There's work going on in Birmingham, and I believe the site for one of the tunnel portals in the Chilterns, where the TBM's will be launched for their drive, is being organised. There's almost certainly others I have missed.

    Main construction work should start later this year (delayed from the end of 2018).
    RIP The Bree Louise watering hole
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,856
    Difficult to read how the Ukraine result will work. Was there a pro-Russian candidate in the election? Is that the real story. It's hard to imagine an anti-corruption candidate being pro-Russian - yet Trump also ran on an anti-corruption platform, don't forget 'She's going to jail.' And he appears very close to a major oligarch.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
    Trafford Centre?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    rpjs said:

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!

    Unprotected 3rd/4th rail in new installations is illegal in the UK, although existing installations can be extended

    Sadly it probably wouldn’t be financially feasible to convert the existing SE third-rail network from open to protected third-rail. It works a treat here in NY on the Metro-North: we never have problems with icing on the third rail.
    Do you mean bottom contact? The DLR has had that since 1987.
    Well, I hope it is consensual!
    Shocking!
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Pulpstar said:

    RIP The Bree Louise watering hole

    TBH I won't miss it. It should have been the sort of pub I like but every time I visited it was utterly rammed. That's not a problem if the clientele are willing to budge up and share with each other, but the Bree Louise seemed to be full of table-baggers who'd put coats and bags on every spare chair and hog them for an hour until the rest of their party turned up. Contrast to the Euston Tap round the corner, which has always seemed much more friendly... even though I do miss the old Cider Tap.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    While May needs to go as soon as can be reasonably managed, the focus on it as though it solves their problems makes me less inclined to look favourably on the Tories. They have no actual plan besides the no deal one, so the focus on May first rather than solving the deadlock first makes it look like a distraction from the real issues, something to comfort them that they have control over vs Brexit which is dying a slow death.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness' sake. "Former council candidates". That includes someone who stood for one of the seven Little Snorting Parish Council seats in 1997 and didn't get in. If only 32 of 895 can manage that level of engagement, colour me unimpressed.
    Yet the failed candidate Annunziata Rees-Mogg, who has never held elected office was highlighted by Nigel Farage in his Brexit campaign party launch and given significant media coverage by Brexit newspapers for being the sister of a Tory MP. Nothing she has achieved just Jacobs sister! She lost both the seats she contested as a prospective Conservative Parliamentary candidate. Not much more to be said about her.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Difficult to read how the Ukraine result will work. Was there a pro-Russian candidate in the election? Is that the real story. It's hard to imagine an anti-corruption candidate being pro-Russian - yet Trump also ran on an anti-corruption platform, don't forget 'She's going to jail.' And he appears very close to a major oligarch.

    It is truly extraordinary to reflect that Trump, who makes Coolidge or Grant look like a model of probity, ran on anti-corruption platform.

    It's like hearing Gordon Brown is standing on a platform of sound money or Theresa May on leadership and stability. Oh hold on, they did.
  • Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
    Trafford Centre?
    Trafford Centre certainly has a very big Boots

    But that is Dumplington and not Old Trafford.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Scott_P said:
    They are coy about the number of former Conservative activists they have won over.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    Skipping the puns for a moment - I enjoyed your header Sunil, thanks - looking forward to part 2.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    Skipping the puns for a moment .
    A massive PB faux pass there
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    But you haven't been able to keep us on track.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    edited April 2019
    kle4 said:

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    Skipping the puns for a moment .
    A massive PB faux pass there
    Yes, I'll probably be banned for that one.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    ydoethur said:

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    But you haven't been able to keep us on track.
    He has signalled a return ticket though.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    ydoethur said:

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    But you haven't been able to keep us on track.
    You both make interesting points

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    Skipping the puns for a moment - I enjoyed your header Sunil, thanks - looking forward to part 2.
    Thanks, Ben-points-er :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    But you haven't been able to keep us on track.
    You both make interesting points

    You can't have red @Benpointer's earlier post. Or you would have branched off.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
    It might have been Trafford Centre and it was about 7-8 years ago that Andy Hornby told me. But I assume that the Boots CEO had a better idea of his best performing stores than you have.

    (Ken High St was #2 FWIW)
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Uncanny how a thread by Sunil has turned into a discussion about railways.

    Well, he did raise a number of interesting points.
    Mike gave me a free platform :)
    But you haven't been able to keep us on track.
    You both make interesting points

    Who will be the first to signal the switch to the next thread?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    @Sunil_Prasannan

    Good article, well done. I look forward to Part 2
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,039
    Railway puns? I expect better from PB's fellow travellers.

    We should be thinking about a permanent way to signal our future direction of travel with the EU and can gain some traction without it being derailed or hitting the buffers.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Excellent article. Nice to see The Sunil reaching his full potential. :)

    Oh and happy Easter PB. :D
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Thanks again for the nice words, guys :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
    It might have been Trafford Centre and it was about 7-8 years ago that Andy Hornby told me. But I assume that the Boots CEO had a better idea of his best performing stores than you have.

    (Ken High St was #2 FWIW)
    I used to go to the Kensington one quite often when I studied and worked at Imperial, though I left there 15 years ago.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    This will be the final Easter with Theresa May as PM! :D
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    viewcode said:

    @Sunil_Prasannan

    Good article, well done. I look forward to Part 2

    Yes, don't leave it too long Sunil - mind the gap!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    GIN1138 said:

    This will be the final Easter with Theresa May as PM! :D

    What - is Easter being cancelled?!
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543

    GIN1138 said:

    This will be the final Easter with Theresa May as PM! :D

    What - is Easter being cancelled?!
    Too many leavers on the line.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    GIN1138 said:

    This will be the final Easter with Theresa May as PM! :D

    Don't count your chickens until they are hatched!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,856

    For anyone who has seen WWII footage of locals being encouraged to beat Jews to death by their Nazi 'liberators', this should be particularly horrible.

    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1119999493695574016

    Sickening. But worth remembering that the country next door has just elected a Jewish president.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
    It might have been Trafford Centre and it was about 7-8 years ago that Andy Hornby told me. But I assume that the Boots CEO had a better idea of his best performing stores than you have.

    (Ken High St was #2 FWIW)
    So not Old Trafford then?

    You meant Trafford Centre which is a good 5km away
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    GIN1138 said:

    This will be the final Easter with Theresa May as PM! :D

    Don't count your chickens until they are hatched!
    ;)
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    With regard to the thread header:

    I always remember the by-elections in the 1992 - 1997 Parliament. They were epic but as a Conservative supporter at the time frightening. We must now be approaching the time where a by-election will be initiated with a 20% plus swing. I suppose it depends on the seat it is being called in and the pertinent issue that changes minds and propels a differentiated turnout. Certainly if you read the papers the so called Brexit party might be something that wins a by-election by a convincing amount, if not the media will be as disappointed as the Brexit party!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    HS2

    The line in from the south into Manc through Stockport is full, zero capacity.

    Likewise the line into Brum.

    HS2 takes some of the capacity draining Pendos of the line into Manc from the south, freeing it up for many more commuter services into the city

    Allowing the local economy to thrive with more local services

    Sticking more double decker trains on the WCML or moving parliament does not achieve the same outcome

    Eight trains into MAN before 10am on a weekday:

    https://tinyurl.com/y4hodn9n

    Part of the issue seems to be that longer trains are needed and gradually that's being addressed.
    It's frequency

    Prestbury - rich Cheshire has 1tph

    Remove 1 Pendo / hr would give 2 or 3 extra slow commuters per hour
    It's at times like this that I realise just how big London is. Prestbury is around 16 miles from the centre of Manchester. That doesn't get you to the M25 from the centre of London.

    Prestbury station gets around 60,000 journeys to/from it each year. Perhaps the timetable is the limiting factor on its usage. But unless you build a lot of houses in the area, I can't see three trains per hour making much difference. And given the residents of the Golden Triangle, I can't imagine much support for Taylor Wimpey estates!
    The wealthy suburbs of London are wealthy because they are on railway lines.

    The wealthy suburbs of Manc are wealthy despite having awful transport connections to anywhere.
    Old Trafford has the highest revenue and gross profit per square foot of any Boots store.

    Just in case you needed to know that 😆
    It does not

    There is no Boots in Old Trafford
    It might have been Trafford Centre and it was about 7-8 years ago that Andy Hornby told me. But I assume that the Boots CEO had a better idea of his best performing stores than you have.

    (Ken High St was #2 FWIW)
    So not Old Trafford then?

    You meant Trafford Centre which is a good 5km away
    Indeed. A polite response would have been “do you mean the Trafford centre” not “it does not”.

    The factoid was meant to be of interest to people. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about something.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    HYUFD said:
    An unlikely story. May has been too weak to carry out a major reshuffle since the general election. Hard to believe that such a reshuffle has been seriously considered recently.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    HYUFD said:
    An unlikely story. May has been too weak to carry out a major reshuffle since the general election. Hard to believe that such a reshuffle has been seriously considered recently.
    It probably means the Sun has no interesting news to report so are reporting the bleeding obvious! I suppose it is better they are still discussing the PM than just propagating the Brexit party who advocate a No Deal Brexit that would screw up the UK economy and cause severe implications for the continuation of the UK in its current state.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    HYUFD said:
    An unlikely story. May has been too weak to carry out a major reshuffle since the general election. Hard to believe that such a reshuffle has been seriously considered recently.
    Indeed - a major source of her paralysis has been the the inability to pick one faction over the other in Cabinet for so long.
This discussion has been closed.