I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it might be reflective of their limited bubble, they also didn't want too much member interfecence (being part of their problem with their old parties) so it seems to be pretty much the MPs who defected, none of which are generally considered stand out names and some advisers from the New Labour era. They are mostly intelligent and educated people but there is a very limited perspective there.
Edit: Also yes I could have cheered (if I wasn't laughing so much) when I heard the name.
It should have been blindingly obvious to them that, if we get EU elections, Farage is going to spend the next two months calling them the EU's CUKs at every opportunity.
None of them will get the joke, but most of Farage's supporters (and all of the media) will be laughing out loud at it.
That might not be the stroke of genius that the nutjob right expect it to be. There are plenty of examples of insults that were turned into badges of honour or affection. And I'm sure that the tiggers won't object to the free advertising.
It only gives succor if you think the likes of JRM or Francois or Baker have ever said anything worth listening to in their lives. If you don't (and who would) its just a pathetic excuse.
Only a sucker would think that?
Well, quite. They are just mind numbingly stupid, detached from the real world and complete fantasists. Although a leaver (still) I agree with TSE that them losing the whip would be the best thing that could happen to the Tories going forward. They might then be capable of being a party of government again (once they got a new leader, of course).
I have no sympathy with the predicament of self-proclaimed moderate Leavers. None. They spent years pandering to the prejudices of the hardliners and then expected them meekly to fall into line when it suited them. Newsflash: if you want something to happen, you have to argue for it consistently and firmly. You didn't. The outcome was the consequence of your own actions.
More than that, the current turn out of events should have come as no surprise to those who voted Leave as it would have been assigned a non-trivial/significant probability in their scenario analysis and hence there should have been a coherent response.
Instead they all seem to be absolutely gobsmacked by what has happened and are running around fighting like cats in a sack.
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it might be reflective of their limited bubble, they also didn't want too much member interfecence (being part of their problem with their old parties) so it seems to be pretty much the MPs who defected, none of which are generally considered stand out names and some advisers from the New Labour era. They are mostly intelligent and educated people but there is a very limited perspective there.
Edit: Also yes I could have cheered (if I wasn't laughing so much) when I heard the name.
It should have been blindingly obvious to them that, if we get EU elections, Farage is going to spend the next two months calling them the EU's CUKs at every opportunity.
None of them will get the joke, but most of Farage's supporters (and all of the media) will be laughing out loud at it.
That might not be the stroke of genius that the nutjob right expect it to be. There are plenty of examples of insults that were turned into badges of honour or affection. And I'm sure that the tiggers won't object to the free advertising.
"Fire up the Quattro"
Parties have survived being known as Tories and Know Nothings.
Just learnt a new modern techie word - "sealioning"
And where did you hear that? Do you have any references?
Had to look it up "Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility."
Just learnt a new modern techie word - "sealioning"
And where did you hear that? Do you have any references?
Had to look it up "Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility."
Thank goodness we don't have any of that on PB, eh?
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
They probably could have registered "Tig" if they'd never stood in front of signs saying "The Independent Group", but the use of "Independent" in the acronym was always going to be problematic for the Electoral Commission as a party name.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
What an utter ****show. The brexiteers had the thing they wanted, and in pure greed and hubris they've thrown it all away.
They deserve it.
Did they and have they ? Seems to me the game is just beginning.
State of play - no May Brexit but....
The EU want us out.
Winning an election on remain is impossible - not the case 3 years ago.
Wet Conservatism is dead as an electoral force.
Winning an election on remain may not be impossible. I suspect the leave vote is far more split (UKIP, Farage, Tories) than the other side plus a lot of Labour support is merely because they are "hold nose" but still better than the other options..
Equally Labour isn't stupid enough to go for a straightforward revoke it would be a referendum - leaving under these terms v remain..
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
Every time Leavers said Mrs May's deal was worse than Remaining they gave succour to others to oppose the deal.
Plus Labour's manifesto was clear and gave Labour cover to oppose Mrs May's deal.
It only gives succor if you think the likes of JRM or Francois or Baker have ever said anything worth listening to in their lives. If you don't (and who would) its just a pathetic excuse.
As for Labour they committed themselves to honouring the Brexit vote. If they hadn't even May might have got a majority. Of course they had their own ideas of how Brexit should be done but those ideas are only relevant if there is a majority in the House for them. Which there isn't. It did not give them cover to stop Brexit or let the morons stop it either.
It wasn't just them, two of Mrs May's Brexit Secretaries, and her former Foreign Secretary said the same.
So what? The people were asked and they answered. The answer was close so a softer Brexit than Boris claimed and Raab and Davies actually wanted wasn't a reasonable response or a reason to reject the deal that had actually been negotiated. These excuses for not doing what they promised when elected are just pathetic. And what trust there ever was in our political class has been destroyed as a result.
Political anoraks are splitting hairs trying to manoeuvre into a partisan blame game while the other 99.9% of the populace will be blaming the political class as a whole
Exactly. People (and most of our MPs still qualify for that appellation) are responsible for their own acts. As a class they are not worthy.
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
A flop for them but not so much the other guy....
I don't see why not stick with TIG and be Tiggers, you could call yourself the independent group but just be known as TIG.
Change UK is particularly bad (because of the initials) but I feared/hoped they would end up with that kind of bland name which tries to say something in the name. Renew, Momentum and many other variations on it would fall in the same category as names for political parties (though a bit better I'd argue)
Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, UKIP, Greens they all say something political in their name without just using a bland word that almost any politician could support (who doesn't want some kind of change currently?) I'm not sure what word they could use as centrist and moderate aren't particularly going to get the votes out either but maybe that just reflects the actual popularity of their political positioning.
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
They probably could have registered "Tig" if they'd never stood in front of signs saying "The Independent Group", but the use of "Independent" in the acronym was always going to be problematic for the Electoral Commission as a party name.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
I stand corrected, a shame for them as Tiggers was a good label (mostly positive attachments to the name if any for people I'd imagine)
Farage is going to spend the next two months calling them the EU's CUKs at every opportunity.
Farage doesn't give a fuck about them. They aren't competing for the same voters. He's fighting the tories and UKIP for the misapostrophisation cohort.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
I have no sympathy with the predicament of self-proclaimed moderate Leavers. None. They spent years pandering to the prejudices of the hardliners and then expected them meekly to fall into line when it suited them. Newsflash: if you want something to happen, you have to argue for it consistently and firmly. You didn't. The outcome was the consequence of your own actions.
And people wonder why reaching out to the Remain mob has failed.
With extremists like Meeks on the Remain side there is no point. He is so wrapped up in his own delusions and hatred that he would rather see the whole country burn than come to a reasoned solution.
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
They probably could have registered "Tig" if they'd never stood in front of signs saying "The Independent Group", but the use of "Independent" in the acronym was always going to be problematic for the Electoral Commission as a party name.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
I stand corrected, a shame for them as Tiggers was a good label (mostly positive attachments to the name if any for people I'd imagine)
Mind you, it was before May's deal was put to parliament and the shambles that followed.....so almost certainly the Tories are down, but as Dr Johnson observed 'there is little point to settling precedence between a louse and a flea'...vis a vis the Tories & Labour....
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
As a punishment we should all reply to Casino's posts in blank verse.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
What an utter ****show. The brexiteers had the thing they wanted, and in pure greed and hubris they've thrown it all away.
They deserve it.
Did they and have they ? Seems to me the game is just beginning.
State of play - no May Brexit but....
The EU want us out.
Winning an election on remain is impossible - not the case 3 years ago.
Wet Conservatism is dead as an electoral force.
Winning an election on remain may not be impossible. I suspect the leave vote is far more split (UKIP, Farage, Tories) than the other side plus a lot of Labour support is merely because they are "hold nose" but still better than the other options..
Equally Labour isn't stupid enough to go for a straightforward revoke it would be a referendum - leaving under these terms v remain..
A general election now would be a big boost for remain. Key leave supporters, particularly Bojo and IDS, are very vulnerable to tactical voting by remainers. Leave supporters are angry and demoralised and many would not vote Tory as they would not trust the Tories to deliver. So they would either abstain or have choice between UKIP and the Farage party (which many would be unable to distinguish from each other). Remain supporters, on the other hand, are well organised and think victory is in sight - they would campaign for tactical voting and ensure that the new parliament is even more remainey than the current one.
Britain’s economy grew by 0.2% in February, better than many City economists had expected. Over the last quarter, GDP grew by 0.3%.
On an annual basis, the UK economy expanded by 2.0% in the last quarter -- the best results since late 2017.
Despite Brexit, I assume
They claim because of it....stockpiling. I am sure there is some of that, but it seems a little bit like the claim unemployment falling was solely down to zero hour contracts / minimum wage jobs narrative.
I have no sympathy with the predicament of self-proclaimed moderate Leavers. None. They spent years pandering to the prejudices of the hardliners and then expected them meekly to fall into line when it suited them. Newsflash: if you want something to happen, you have to argue for it consistently and firmly. You didn't. The outcome was the consequence of your own actions.
Indeed. Who can forget that scene from Titanic when Kate Hoey and Nigel Farage sat on the prow of the Thames cruiser arms around each other....
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
They probably could have registered "Tig" if they'd never stood in front of signs saying "The Independent Group", but the use of "Independent" in the acronym was always going to be problematic for the Electoral Commission as a party name.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
I stand corrected, a shame for them as Tiggers was a good label (mostly positive attachments to the name if any for people I'd imagine)
I had heard a little about the literal democrat (good name in fairness) just didn't realise the scope would reach that far, I thought they could get away with TIG on the ballot.
In fairness, £350 m a week for the NHS has already been allocated.
Only because it has been nicked from elsewhere, which could/would have happened whichever way the vote went. I don't think many serious economists think we will be better off after this debacle. It is therefore still a porky.
Quite interested to see how his defamation action works out. Should be issued fairly soon.
Any professional view?
Its quite hard to call. The Scottish courts are not big on defamation but have generally been minded to uphold complaints in recent times when they have got to decisions. Two very able QCs neither of whom lose often. Sensible Sheriff for the proof.
The interesting question is how the Courts will deal with the Kezia defence. In discrimination law the perception of the "victim" or member of the discriminated group is key, if they perceive that they have been discriminated against they have. Kezia played very strongly on that in her evidence: as a gay woman she was offended. Defamation law is different from that because the test is objective, not what was perceived by Campbell or Kezia. I will be interested to see how that plays.
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
But the most wonderful thing about Tiggers is - I am the only one!
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
Don't you think that had Mrs May spent those two years keeping her colleagues informed of what was going on rather than poscards of David Davis smiling like a cheshire cat she might have been in a better position to expect loyalty when she finally presented her plan?
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
They probably could have registered "Tig" if they'd never stood in front of signs saying "The Independent Group", but the use of "Independent" in the acronym was always going to be problematic for the Electoral Commission as a party name.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
I stand corrected, a shame for them as Tiggers was a good label (mostly positive attachments to the name if any for people I'd imagine)
I had heard a little about the literal democrat (good name in fairness) just didn't realise the scope would reach that far, I thought they could get away with TIG on the ballot.
I guess the Literal Democrats know how to use an apostrophe so are therefore the antithesis of UKIP supporters. If we had the Numerical Democrats they would be the antithesis of Corbyn's Momentum Party because they would know how to use a calculator.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
IDS was removed after the elections went surprisingly well for the Conservatives, so the two are not necessarily related. Plots develop a momentum of their own..
They weren't surprisingly good, rather they were about in line with expectations - the press strapline was 'don't confuse relief with joy.'
But what did for IDS was the Tories' dismal showing in Brent East, where a number of Conservative voters deserted to the Liberal Democrats and Sarah Tether pulled off a stunning win. There was a general feeling that while Labour had suffered horrendously the Tories were not benefitting and IDS was the problem.
(It's interesting to note the three previous Tory candidates in Brent East were David Gauke, Mark Francois and Damian Green.)
What did for IDS was that he got thumped at PMQs every week without fail, leading to a collapse in backbench morale.
What did for IDS is that he was a shite leader in all ways. But Brent East was what led first to *that* conference speech and then to the confidence vote.
And that report doesn't undermine what I said. The expectations were more seats and a poor showing in the popular vote, which happened. Allowing for the fact the Tory chairman of the time was running around doing expectations management of 'a net gain of around thirty seats' (what an idiot that person was, isn't it a good job she was never promoted to high office) anything less than 300 was regarded as terminal for IDS. Admittedly 566 was more than that minimum, there was no sign of a 1990s style breakthrough that would put them on the road to power.
The Conservatives did a lot better than expected under IDS. The plot against him had by the time of the locals developed its own momentum: that BBC report even speculates this will be the case. The next leader, Michael Howard, brought them no closer to power, although revisionist apologists for the plotters (cough Francis Maude cough) claimed Howard's great achievement was promoting David Cameron. A boast that has not aged well, although I suppose the alternative was David Davis.
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
But the most wonderful thing about Tiggers is - I am the only one!
Tiggers like everything except...Jeremy Corbyn. Always liked Tigger!
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
They probably could have registered "Tig" if they'd never stood in front of signs saying "The Independent Group", but the use of "Independent" in the acronym was always going to be problematic for the Electoral Commission as a party name.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
I stand corrected, a shame for them as Tiggers was a good label (mostly positive attachments to the name if any for people I'd imagine)
I had heard a little about the literal democrat (good name in fairness) just didn't realise the scope would reach that far, I thought they could get away with TIG on the ballot.
I guess the Literal Democrats know how to use an apostrophe so are therefore the antithesis of UKIP supporters. If we had the Numerical Democrats they would be the antithesis of Corbyn's Momentum Party because they would know how to use a calculator.
UKIP supporters are disproportionately likely to live on the coast, which makes them littoral democrats.
My name is Fred Fernackerpan, I walk about the town, Sometimes with my trousers up and sometimes with them down. When they were up, they were up, When they were down, they were down And when they were only half way up, I was arrested.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
Don't you think that had Mrs May spent those two years keeping her colleagues informed of what was going on rather than poscards of David Davis smiling like a cheshire cat she might have been in a better position to expect loyalty when she finally presented her plan?
Of course. And she should have reached out across the Commons to take in the views of others as well. And she should have had Labour representation on the negotiating team (ideally Mandelson, as I have consistently argued on here). And she shouldn't have gone behind Davis' back (even if he was incredibly lazy and frustrating). And... well I could be here all morning couldn't I?
You're not a sea-lion by any chance are you Roger?
Quite interested to see how his defamation action works out. Should be issued fairly soon.
Any professional view?
Its quite hard to call. The Scottish courts are not big on defamation but have generally been minded to uphold complaints in recent times when they have got to decisions. Two very able QCs neither of whom lose often. Sensible Sheriff for the proof.
The interesting question is how the Courts will deal with the Kezia defence. In discrimination law the perception of the "victim" or member of the discriminated group is key, if they perceive that they have been discriminated against they have. Kezia played very strongly on that in her evidence: as a gay woman she was offended. Defamation law is different from that because the test is objective, not what was perceived by Campbell or Kezia. I will be interested to see how that plays.
Thanks.
If the 'What is a wank hole? A hole into which one wanks.' exchange doesn't enter legal mythology, there's nae justice.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
I'm still laughing that they clearly didn't run their new name past anyone familiar with Urban Dictionary before announcing it. CUKs indeed.
I think they should have stuck with Tiggers. It was nice and easy on the tongue and gave rise to many awesome puns about bounces, tails, Winnie elections...
Indeed. TIG worked well as a brand.
I'd guess that they couldn't register "The Independent Group" as a party name with the Electoral Commission though, as it could be confused with the description commonly used by candidates of no party affiliation. Memories of the "Literal Democrats" that led to the law on party name registration.
Could they not have been labelled as 'TIG' on ballots?
I fear Change UK is a flop as a name.
They probably could have registered "Tig" if they'd never stood in front of signs saying "The Independent Group", but the use of "Independent" in the acronym was always going to be problematic for the Electoral Commission as a party name.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
I stand corrected, a shame for them as Tiggers was a good label (mostly positive attachments to the name if any for people I'd imagine)
I had heard a little about the literal democrat (good name in fairness) just didn't realise the scope would reach that far, I thought they could get away with TIG on the ballot.
I guess the Literal Democrats know how to use an apostrophe so are therefore the antithesis of UKIP supporters. If we had the Numerical Democrats they would be the antithesis of Corbyn's Momentum Party because they would know how to use a calculator.
UKIP supporters are disproportionately likely to live on the coast, which makes them littoral democrats.
Very good! I tend to see them as being as close to a bunch of ***** as you can get, so they could be referred to as Clitoral Democrats.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
What utter bullshit! Sorry. I love both - and always have lines of poetry running around my head. I have even made oblique references to lines of poetry in some of my thread headers, mainly for my own amusement. And it has provided comfort to me at times of sadness. As for opera, the last 20 minutes of Don Giovanni or the end of Act 1 of The Marriage of Figaro or E lucevan le stelle from Tosca are sublime. Or The Slaves Chorus from Nabucco - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2F4G5H_TTvU or - well there is so much to choose from.
I used to recite The Owl and the Pussycat to my children from when they were very tiny as well as loads of other poems. One of the best things you can do for your daughter is read lots of rythmic poetry (Jack and Jill and so on, mving on to Lear and Shakespeare and others) - it will do wonders for her language skills. Rythm is essential to language development; it is something we are hard wired to respond to and to be exposed to it at an early age through poetry is a brilliant way for a child to learn how to understand, speak and write English - a glorious language - well.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
What utter bullshit! Sorry. I love both - and always have lines of poetry running around my head. I have even made oblique references to lines of poetry in some of my thread headers, mainly for my own amusement. And it has provided comfort to me at times of sadness. As for opera, the last 20 minutes of Don Giovanni or the end of Act 1 of The Marriage of Figaro or E lucevan le stelle from Tosca are sublime. Or The Slaves Chorus from Nabucco - *bit of well dodgy kultcha snipped* or - well there is so much to choose from.
I used to recite The Owl and the Pussycat to my children from when they were very tiny as well as loads of other poems. One of the best things you can do for your daughter is read lots of rythmic poetry (Jack and Jill and so on, mving on to Lear and Shakespeare and others) - it will do wonders for her language skills. Rythm is essential to language development; it is something we are hard wired to respond to and to be exposed to it at an early age through poetry is a brilliant way for a child to learn how to understand, speak and write English - a glorious language - well.
LOL. Like presenting a gerbil with a bicycle and saying: see what fun it is?
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
It is not personal, I have no idea who you are, and unless that is not a pseudonym, I probably will never have the pleasure (odd name if it is not). So no, you are wrong on that count. I only indulge in "attacks" as you so thinly skinned think they are, if I consider them funny. The fact that you do not share the humour makes it even funnier. Extremists still blindly support the idiocy of Brexit, and of course, it has been long known that extremists have no sense of humour. Lighten up, it makes the world a fun place, even when the loonies are trying to trash the country in the blind pursuit of a policy of stupidity.
Turkey is not going to join the EU because of events post-referendum, which is cracking good evidence that the claim was correct when it was made.
Otherwise correct. I am astonished by the lack of one last heave, sunlit uplands talk; you couldn't do it without sounding delusional but that hasn't stopped anyone in the past. Yebbut DEMOCRACEEE is the only argument in town.
Apparently the country is no longer divisible by ancient Party affiliation but by Leave or Remain. In which case it's 39% Leave 50% Remain. Overwheming evidence that we need another Reerendum
Stockpiling by manufacturers ahead of Brexit helped the UK economy grow by 0.3% in the three months to February.
BUT...
"Services again drove the economy, with a continued strong performance in IT. Manufacturing also continued to recover after weakness at the end of last year with the often-erratic pharmaceutical industry, chemicals and alcohol performing well in recent months," said Mr Kent-Smith.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
Most unfair, I believe CR is is a passionate authority on the paintings of Lady Butler and the works of W.E. Johns.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
What utter bullshit! Sorry. I love both - and always have lines of poetry running around my head. I have even made oblique references to lines of poetry in some of my thread headers, mainly for my own amusement. And it has provided comfort to me at times of sadness. As for opera, the last 20 minutes of Don Giovanni or the end of Act 1 of The Marriage of Figaro or E lucevan le stelle from Tosca are sublime. Or The Slaves Chorus from Nabucco - *bit of well dodgy kultcha snipped* or - well there is so much to choose from.
I used to recite The Owl and the Pussycat to my children from when they were very tiny as well as loads of other poems. One of the best things you can do for your daughter is read lots of rythmic poetry (Jack and Jill and so on, mving on to Lear and Shakespeare and others) - it will do wonders for her language skills. Rythm is essential to language development; it is something we are hard wired to respond to and to be exposed to it at an early age through poetry is a brilliant way for a child to learn how to understand, speak and write English - a glorious language - well.
LOL. Like presenting a gerbil with a bicycle and saying: see what fun it is?
The owl and the pussycat is a great one to recite to teenage boys and bet them that they won't laugh
Before anyone gets over excited by the Kantar poll:
Sampling variance We have estimated the sampling variation in our voting intention estimates using the methodology proposed by Kuha and Sturgis (20171). Bootstrap resampling was used to draw fifty sets of respondents from the achieved sample (in a way which matched the quota sampling design), each of these new samples was weighted and we then used the distribution of estimates (from the resamples) to calculate margins of error (the range containing all but the two most extreme resample results).
• Conservative Party = 27.9% - 36.4% • Labour Party = 30.6% - 38.4% • Conservative lead over Labour = -9.9%pts to +5.5%pts
Quite interested to see how his defamation action works out. Should be issued fairly soon.
Any professional view?
Its quite hard to call. The Scottish courts are not big on defamation but have generally been minded to uphold complaints in recent times when they have got to decisions. Two very able QCs neither of whom lose often. Sensible Sheriff for the proof.
The interesting question is how the Courts will deal with the Kezia defence. In discrimination law the perception of the "victim" or member of the discriminated group is key, if they perceive that they have been discriminated against they have. Kezia played very strongly on that in her evidence: as a gay woman she was offended. Defamation law is different from that because the test is objective, not what was perceived by Campbell or Kezia. I will be interested to see how that plays.
I'm hoping Kezia wins, as I believe she's stated her opinion which was sincerely and honestly held. If we can't do that, then where are we ?
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
When I was in my v. late teens the girl to whom I was devoted (love, I thought, as well as lust) left me for someone called Nigel. I've never liked the name since.
Ah but we are back to construction being a negative figure again. So between that and our trade deficit all the Great British traditions are being maintained.
Before anyone gets over excited by the Kantar poll:
Sampling variance We have estimated the sampling variation in our voting intention estimates using the methodology proposed by Kuha and Sturgis (20171). Bootstrap resampling was used to draw fifty sets of respondents from the achieved sample (in a way which matched the quota sampling design), each of these new samples was weighted and we then used the distribution of estimates (from the resamples) to calculate margins of error (the range containing all but the two most extreme resample results).
• Conservative Party = 27.9% - 36.4% • Labour Party = 30.6% - 38.4% • Conservative lead over Labour = -9.9%pts to +5.5%pts
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
But the most vocal leavers didn't vote for the deal. So we remain.
Comments
Instead they all seem to be absolutely gobsmacked by what has happened and are running around fighting like cats in a sack.
Parties have used more descriptive names before, such as "David Cameron's Conservatives", and I'd have thought "Nigel Farage's Brexit Party" is likely to come up this year, but such descriptions are to avoid confusion rather than add to it.
Equally Labour isn't stupid enough to go for a straightforward revoke it would be a referendum - leaving under these terms v remain..
(Except of course you can't link to something that isn't there to prove the negative.)
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1115895329654808576
I don't see why not stick with TIG and be Tiggers, you could call yourself the independent group but just be known as TIG.
Change UK is particularly bad (because of the initials) but I feared/hoped they would end up with that kind of bland name which tries to say something in the name. Renew, Momentum and many other variations on it would fall in the same category as names for political parties (though a bit better I'd argue)
Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, UKIP, Greens they all say something political in their name without just using a bland word that almost any politician could support (who doesn't want some kind of change currently?) I'm not sure what word they could use as centrist and moderate aren't particularly going to get the votes out either but maybe that just reflects the actual popularity of their political positioning.
https://www.itv.com/news/2018-06-16/nhs-to-get-extra-384-million-per-week-after-brexit-government-says/
Of course 'Tory' was originally a term of abuse, as was 'Marxist.'
'Can you give me the positive case for staying in the UK?'
'UKOK'
'Y'what?'
'UKOK!!'
'FUKU then.'
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1115896347058692101
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
With extremists like Meeks on the Remain side there is no point. He is so wrapped up in his own delusions and hatred that he would rather see the whole country burn than come to a reasoned solution.
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1074669070203715584
Britain’s economy grew by 0.2% in February, better than many City economists had expected. Over the last quarter, GDP grew by 0.3%.
On an annual basis, the UK economy expanded by 2.0% in the last quarter -- the best results since late 2017.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Huggett
https://uk.kantar.com/public-opinion/politics/2019/conservatives-10-points-ahead-of-labour-as-pms-deal-heads-for-parliamentary-vote/
Mind you, it was before May's deal was put to parliament and the shambles that followed.....so almost certainly the Tories are down, but as Dr Johnson observed 'there is little point to settling precedence between a louse and a flea'...vis a vis the Tories & Labour....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Weisz
That'll learn him.
[Edit: Nope, @RobD beat me to it]
Right, work to do. Laters all.
...God how we prayed for an iceberg
Becasue of Brexit, I assume
The interesting question is how the Courts will deal with the Kezia defence. In discrimination law the perception of the "victim" or member of the discriminated group is key, if they perceive that they have been discriminated against they have. Kezia played very strongly on that in her evidence: as a gay woman she was offended. Defamation law is different from that because the test is objective, not what was perceived by Campbell or Kezia. I will be interested to see how that plays.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Sometimes with my trousers up and sometimes with them down.
When they were up, they were up,
When they were down, they were down
And when they were only half way up,
I was arrested.
T. Milligan, 1978
You're not a sea-lion by any chance are you Roger?
If the 'What is a wank hole? A hole into which one wanks.' exchange doesn't enter legal mythology, there's nae justice.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
I used to recite The Owl and the Pussycat to my children from when they were very tiny as well as loads of other poems. One of the best things you can do for your daughter is read lots of rythmic poetry (Jack and Jill and so on, mving on to Lear and Shakespeare and others) - it will do wonders for her language skills. Rythm is essential to language development; it is something we are hard wired to respond to and to be exposed to it at an early age through poetry is a brilliant way for a child to learn how to understand, speak and write English - a glorious language - well.
Oh Theresa what have you done...
Otherwise correct. I am astonished by the lack of one last heave, sunlit uplands talk; you couldn't do it without sounding delusional but that hasn't stopped anyone in the past. Yebbut DEMOCRACEEE is the only argument in town.
* No idea what happened to the other 11%
Stockpiling by manufacturers ahead of Brexit helped the UK economy grow by 0.3% in the three months to February.
BUT...
"Services again drove the economy, with a continued strong performance in IT. Manufacturing also continued to recover after weakness at the end of last year with the often-erratic pharmaceutical industry, chemicals and alcohol performing well in recent months," said Mr Kent-Smith.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47878341
Sampling variance
We have estimated the sampling variation in our voting intention estimates using the
methodology proposed by Kuha and Sturgis (20171). Bootstrap resampling was used to
draw fifty sets of respondents from the achieved sample (in a way which matched the
quota sampling design), each of these new samples was weighted and we then used the
distribution of estimates (from the resamples) to calculate margins of error (the range
containing all but the two most extreme resample results).
• Conservative Party = 27.9% - 36.4%
• Labour Party = 30.6% - 38.4%
• Conservative lead over Labour = -9.9%pts to +5.5%pts
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17NIrhnkVdnA-ygi_vnsRW7R3LRf8mHWs/view
I've never liked the name since.
Sorry Mr F.