Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
Most unfair, I believe CR is is a passionate authority on the paintings of Lady Butler and the works of W.E. Johns.
LOL. I bloody loved Biggles when I were a' growing up.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
But the most vocal leavers didn't vote for the deal. So we remain.
I'm getting bored of this, I really am. The deal failed because the HoC voted against it by large numbers, only a small proportion of which were the nutters in the ERG. Had the others done what they promised when elected the stupidity of the ERG would have been irrelevant. Those that voted against the deal are responsible for our current mess. All of them.
Before anyone gets over excited by the Kantar poll:
Sampling variance We have estimated the sampling variation in our voting intention estimates using the methodology proposed by Kuha and Sturgis (20171). Bootstrap resampling was used to draw fifty sets of respondents from the achieved sample (in a way which matched the quota sampling design), each of these new samples was weighted and we then used the distribution of estimates (from the resamples) to calculate margins of error (the range containing all but the two most extreme resample results).
• Conservative Party = 27.9% - 36.4% • Labour Party = 30.6% - 38.4% • Conservative lead over Labour = -9.9%pts to +5.5%pts
Have Kuha and Sturgis come back from the deep and distant future to warn us about polling error mistakes and their dramatic consequences for the human race? :-D
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
But the most vocal leavers didn't vote for the deal. So we remain.
I'm getting bored of this, I really am. The deal failed because the HoC voted against it by large numbers, only a small proportion of which were the nutters in the ERG. Had the others done what they promised when elected the stupidity of the ERG would have been irrelevant. Those that voted against the deal are responsible for our current mess. All of them.
Exactly right.
Giving MPs who promised to implement the referendum result, but voted against the deal, a pass because they were looking to see what others were going to do before voting is crazy partisanship
Before anyone gets over excited by the Kantar poll:
Sampling variance We have estimated the sampling variation in our voting intention estimates using the methodology proposed by Kuha and Sturgis (20171). Bootstrap resampling was used to draw fifty sets of respondents from the achieved sample (in a way which matched the quota sampling design), each of these new samples was weighted and we then used the distribution of estimates (from the resamples) to calculate margins of error (the range containing all but the two most extreme resample results).
• Conservative Party = 27.9% - 36.4% • Labour Party = 30.6% - 38.4% • Conservative lead over Labour = -9.9%pts to +5.5%pts
They might as well not bother if that is the level of variance.
Of course it is the level of variance. Polling can tell us big picture stuff like Labour and the Tories will beat the Lib Dems, but whether Labour or Conservatives will get the most votes at the next election is guesswork right now.
Quite interested to see how his defamation action works out. Should be issued fairly soon.
Any professional view?
Its quite hard to call. The Scottish courts are not big on defamation but have generally been minded to uphold complaints in recent times when they have got to decisions. Two very able QCs neither of whom lose often. Sensible Sheriff for the proof.
The interesting question is how the Courts will deal with the Kezia defence. In discrimination law the perception of the "victim" or member of the discriminated group is key, if they perceive that they have been discriminated against they have. Kezia played very strongly on that in her evidence: as a gay woman she was offended. Defamation law is different from that because the test is objective, not what was perceived by Campbell or Kezia. I will be interested to see how that plays.
I'm hoping Kezia wins, as I believe she's stated her opinion which was sincerely and honestly held. If we can't do that, then where are we ?
I agree and generally think those that run hyperbolic websites just might be a little slower to take offence. But let's not pretend that Kezia didn't have a political motivation as well.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
What utter bullshit! Sorry. I love both - and always have lines of poetry running around my head. I have even made oblique references to lines of poetry in some of my thread headers, mainly for my own amusement. And it has provided comfort to me at times of sadness. As for opera, the last 20 minutes of Don Giovanni or the end of Act 1 of The Marriage of Figaro or E lucevan le stelle from Tosca are sublime. Or The Slaves Chorus from Nabucco - *bit of well dodgy kultcha snipped* or - well there is so much to choose from.
I used to recite The Owl and the Pussycat to my children from when they were very tiny as well as loads of other poems. One of the best things you can do for your daughter is read lots of rythmic poetry (Jack and Jill and so on, mving on to Lear and Shakespeare and others) - it will do wonders for her language skills. Rythm is essential to language development; it is something we are hard wired to respond to and to be exposed to it at an early age through poetry is a brilliant way for a child to learn how to understand, speak and write English - a glorious language - well.
LOL. Like presenting a gerbil with a bicycle and saying: see what fun it is?
Only if your kids have the intellect of a gerbil...
I hope they say "No Extension" after May gives another half hour of gurning nothing has changed wibble.
Lidington to revoke on Friday.
Its bizarre - we're a few score hours from the deadline and we're still clueless, awaiting to know (a) whether May's begging will deliver anything that (b) her own MPs can support.
I hear the European voices asking if they really want the hassle of having a crop of box fresh screaming angry morons elected as British MEPs on top of a further spell of "I hate the EU", "No, I hate them more" positioning for the Tory leadership country.
They really should tell us to do one.
The fact that they wont tell us to do one, shows them in a far better light than anything that has come from our side of late.
This has been remarked upon to me by more than one person recently. The EU politicians have come out of this fairly well. Some of them appear to be grown ups.
I voted remain but not without wavering several times. Watching the respective performances of the ERG and the EU leadership I've become quite a Europhile!
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
Stockpiling by manufacturers ahead of Brexit helped the UK economy grow by 0.3% in the three months to February.
BUT...
"Services again drove the economy, with a continued strong performance in IT. Manufacturing also continued to recover after weakness at the end of last year with the often-erratic pharmaceutical industry, chemicals and alcohol performing well in recent months," said Mr Kent-Smith.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
Most unfair, I believe CR is is a passionate authority on the paintings of Lady Butler and the works of W.E. Johns.
LOL. I bloody loved Biggles when I were a' growing up.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
Most unfair, I believe CR is is a passionate authority on the paintings of Lady Butler and the works of W.E. Johns.
LOL. I bloody loved Biggles when I were a' growing up.
I read somewhere that the first books were written for adults and then re-targeted, so that a story where Biggles and the lads try to track down someone rumoured to have a bottle of pre-war whisky becomes a quest for a bottle of pre-war lemonade.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
But the most vocal leavers didn't vote for the deal. So we remain.
I'm getting bored of this, I really am. The deal failed because the HoC voted against it by large numbers, only a small proportion of which were the nutters in the ERG. Had the others done what they promised when elected the stupidity of the ERG would have been irrelevant. Those that voted against the deal are responsible for our current mess. All of them.
Exactly right.
The only people paid to vote for the deal are the party in Government - which are the Tories and the DUP.
Labour and the other parties are doing exactly what they were elected and are paid to do which is to oppose.
So it is the ERG who are responsible in the main for this mess...
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
What utter bullshit! Sorry. I love both - and always have lines of poetry running around my head. I have even made oblique references to lines of poetry in some of my thread headers, mainly for my own amusement. And it has provided comfort to me at times of sadness. As for opera, the last 20 minutes of Don Giovanni or the end of Act 1 of The Marriage of Figaro or E lucevan le stelle from Tosca are sublime. Or The Slaves Chorus from Nabucco - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2F4G5H_TTvU or - well there is so much to choose from.
I used to recite The Owl and the Pussycat to my children from when they were very tiny as well as loads of other poems. One of the best things you can do for your daughter is read lots of rythmic poetry (Jack and Jill and so on, mving on to Lear and Shakespeare and others) - it will do wonders for her language skills. Rythm is essential to language development; it is something we are hard wired to respond to and to be exposed to it at an early age through poetry is a brilliant way for a child to learn how to understand, speak and write English - a glorious language - well.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
But the most vocal leavers didn't vote for the deal. So we remain.
I'm getting bored of this, I really am. The deal failed because the HoC voted against it by large numbers, only a small proportion of which were the nutters in the ERG. Had the others done what they promised when elected the stupidity of the ERG would have been irrelevant. Those that voted against the deal are responsible for our current mess. All of them.
Wrong, because you overlook the importance of political climate. The circumstance where the Tory party promoted and sold the government's deal to a receptive public is poles apart from the reality where the Brexiters by opposing the deal themselves gave everyone else a perfect excuse to follow their own path.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
But the most vocal leavers didn't vote for the deal. So we remain.
I'm getting bored of this, I really am. The deal failed because the HoC voted against it by large numbers, only a small proportion of which were the nutters in the ERG. Had the others done what they promised when elected the stupidity of the ERG would have been irrelevant. Those that voted against the deal are responsible for our current mess. All of them.
Exactly right.
Giving MPs who promised to implement the referendum result, but voted against the deal, a pass because they were looking to see what others were going to do before voting is crazy partisanship
Might have been an idea to consult Parliament a bit earlier ?
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
To repeat, the behaviour of the former enabled the latter.
No it didn't. If the latter had done their duty then the deal would have passed whatever the morons in the ERG did.
The difference is that the ERG are leavers and vehemently proclaimed that May's deal was a betrayal of the referendum vote. If there was a deal that had unanimous backing of the leavers many remain MPs would have supported it. They were never going to vote for a deal that lots of leavers didn't want.
As Brexiteers thrash around blaming anyone and everyone for the current chaos it seems to me that the core problem from day 1 has been that the leavers have never been able to agree on a way forward. How can everyone else even begin to honour the result if its architects can't agree on how to do it?
Its a false dilemma. We agreed to leave. We need a deal. One has been negotiated. Only 1. The only alternative is no deal which is sub-optimal. So you vote for the deal.
But the most vocal leavers didn't vote for the deal. So we remain.
I'm getting bored of this, I really am. The deal failed because the HoC voted against it by large numbers, only a small proportion of which were the nutters in the ERG. Had the others done what they promised when elected the stupidity of the ERG would have been irrelevant. Those that voted against the deal are responsible for our current mess. All of them.
Exactly right.
So it is the ERG who are responsible in the main for this mess...
Pathetic excusing of management absolving them of the blame ;
"Checkout staff responsible for Debenhams demise" ?
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then. After all, as we've discussed some length here before, many people are going to take a lot more than Brexit into their calculations when choosing where to put their cross. And from what I can see, some at least of the more strident Brexiteers aren't going to vote, 'if they're not going to take any notice'!
We could have done that whenever we wanted to if there was the political will. If we are only doing it after Brexit does that assume that we will be no further financial contributions yes that imply that we will be mSo in other words we could do it was that point or are we doing it anyway (ie the EU contribution issue is a red herring)?
Ah but we are back to construction being a negative figure again. So between that and our trade deficit all the Great British traditions are being maintained.
Luckily Theresa May's deal focussed on the goods market where we run a deficit rather than services.
Quite interested to see how his defamation action works out. Should be issued fairly soon.
Any professional view?
Its quite hard to call. The Scottish courts are not big on defamation but have generally been minded to uphold complaints in recent times when they have got to decisions. Two very able QCs neither of whom lose often. Sensible Sheriff for the proof.
The interesting question is how the Courts will deal with the Kezia defence. In discrimination law the perception of the "victim" or member of the discriminated group is key, if they perceive that they have been discriminated against they have. Kezia played very strongly on that in her evidence: as a gay woman she was offended. Defamation law is different from that because the test is objective, not what was perceived by Campbell or Kezia. I will be interested to see how that plays.
I'm hoping Kezia wins, as I believe she's stated her opinion which was sincerely and honestly held. If we can't do that, then where are we ?
I agree and generally think those that run hyperbolic websites just might be a little slower to take offence. But let's not pretend that Kezia didn't have a political motivation as well.
Plenty of people have political motivations, and many of them air their views on twitter. Plenty of the 'journalists' on there are nowadays pushing a barely veiled political line. And if it was the other way round and Kezia was sueing Wings, I'd hope he'd win the case. It's my view that the courts should only be involved with speech on the most serious and grave matters which I appreciate isn't the case unfortunately.
The public needs to have this repeated over and over. The Brexiteers have betrayed brexit. No one else.
That isn't true. The ERG have betrayed Brexit but they are not alone. All of those who voted to oppose May's deal betrayed Brexit. And they continue to do so.
Unless you are the SNP and (to an extent) the Lib Dems who were elected on different platforms no MP should have voted against May's deal unless they were confident that there was an alternative Brexit that commanded a majority in the House. Which there wasn't. The conduct of our political class has been shameful and the damage to our democracy profound.
Don't you think that had Mrs May spent those two years keeping her colleagues informed of what was going on rather than poscards of David Davis smiling like a cheshire cat she might have been in a better position to expect loyalty when she finally presented her plan?
Of course. And she should have reached out across the Commons to take in the views of others as well. And she should have had Labour representation on the negotiating team (ideally Mandelson, as I have consistently argued on here). And she shouldn't have gone behind Davis' back (even if he was incredibly lazy and frustrating). And... well I could be here all morning couldn't I?
You're not a sea-lion by any chance are you Roger?
Yes I am actually. Do you have a problem with someone being English British European and a Sea-Lion?
It may be that the ERG rattles along as it is for a while longer. But the position of a group with its own whipping operation is ultimately unsustainable – and undesirable, at least for those of us who believe that the Conservative Party, for all its flaws, offers the best future for Britain.
Either the part of the group first described on this site as the Spartans will escape Tory gravity altogether, and soar off into the stratosphere to take its chances on another planet, or else fold back with a deflated sigh into the all-embracing bosom of Celestial Body Conservative. History suggests the latter. None the less, the words of the Speaker loom ominously to mind: “If we only went by precedent, manifestly nothing would ever change”.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
The disaffected public have moved mainly to parties more sympathetic to Remain.
Labour does not seem to me to be the least sympathetic to Remain.
It is definitely less Leave than the Tories and that is its optimum position.
Even though the Leadership and official position is for Brexit, it is clear that under Labour it would not be a No Deal or other hard Brexit, and the concerns of many Remainers on workers, consumer and environmental protections would be very closely aligned with the EU.
I would not be a fan of other aspects of a Corbyn government, but I could live with its Brexit policy.
(rest assured that the UK political system = Remainers)
He seems to be suffering from some kind of breakdown. Now that Remainers are unworthy of Britain and the queen's failure to stop Brexit means that the country must become a republic, one wonders what new purity tests he has in mind for us.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
Most unfair, I believe CR is is a passionate authority on the paintings of Lady Butler and the works of W.E. Johns.
LOL. I bloody loved Biggles when I were a' growing up.
I read somewhere that the first books were written for adults and then re-targeted, so that a story where Biggles and the lads try to track down someone rumoured to have a bottle of pre-war whisky becomes a quest for a bottle of pre-war lemonade.
Perhaps it could now be recast as a search for an ampoule of pre Brexit insulin.
My name is Fred Fernackerpan, I walk about the town, Sometimes with my trousers up and sometimes with them down. When they were up, they were up, When they were down, they were down And when they were only half way up, I was arrested.
T. Milligan, 1978
Spike Milligan is one of those people whose humour does not survive contact with the present day. His general attitudes and language wouldn't pass. His war memoirs are interesting, if not, one suspects, terribly accurate.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
32% isn't being hammered. I think there is a lot of support for Mrs May amongst people who don't follow all the details. Sticking up to the boneheads in your own party is a good look, as Mr Kinnock discovered.
Before anyone gets over excited by the Kantar poll:
Sampling variance We have estimated the sampling variation in our voting intention estimates using the methodology proposed by Kuha and Sturgis (20171). Bootstrap resampling was used to draw fifty sets of respondents from the achieved sample (in a way which matched the quota sampling design), each of these new samples was weighted and we then used the distribution of estimates (from the resamples) to calculate margins of error (the range containing all but the two most extreme resample results).
• Conservative Party = 27.9% - 36.4% • Labour Party = 30.6% - 38.4% • Conservative lead over Labour = -9.9%pts to +5.5%pts
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Can't wait to see Con and Lab manifestos based on remain
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
32% isn't being hammered. I think there is a lot of support for Mrs May amongst people who don't follow all the details. Sticking up to the boneheads in your own party is a good look, as Mr Kinnock discovered.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
The disaffected public have moved mainly to parties more sympathetic to Remain.
Labour does not seem to me to be the least sympathetic to Remain.
It is definitely less Leave than the Tories and that is its optimum position.
Even though the Leadership and official position is for Brexit, it is clear that under Labour it would not be a No Deal or other hard Brexit, and the concerns of many Remainers on workers, consumer and environmental protections would be very closely aligned with the EU.
I would not be a fan of other aspects of a Corbyn government, but I could live with its Brexit policy.
If there is an early election Labour will have some form of commitment, suitably qualified no doubt, to a second referendum. And so will all the other parties apart from the Tories and the DUP (though even they might go for one). So it's very likely that a new parliament will contain a majority of MPs elected on a commitment to a second vote.
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
Most unfair, I believe CR is is a passionate authority on the paintings of Lady Butler and the works of W.E. Johns.
I believe he also much enjoys the delicate prose of Enid Blyton
Mike's point about it being unwise to mount a coup unless you are confident of coming back with a corpse is a good one. However, we are dealing with men who quote Tennyson, who had some apt words for their strategic prowess:
"Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered."
Almost all poetry is shit.
Like opera it’s something people pretend to like to look clever but actually don’t.
Your first line is correct, but the second is plain wrong. I accept that neither is for everyone.
Perhaps you prefer to watch grown men play ball games?
Hilarious bit of mind numbing prejudice from both of you. Here is a bit of mine (though it is born out through evidence): It really is OK. You don't have to try to look clever. You support Brexit, the most unclever idea since Baldrick thought he had a cunning plan.
I have known Casino for some time. I don’t think he’s going to take my tongue-in-cheek comment to heart.
Have you ever thought of posting something here that wasn’t negative and/or a personal attack? You certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage prejudices about people called Nigel. No wonder the name is dying out.
Most bizarre ad hom to date.
As for @Casino, "Leaver not liking or understanding art" must be the least surprising thing I've come across all year.
Most unfair, I believe CR is is a passionate authority on the paintings of Lady Butler and the works of W.E. Johns.
LOL. I bloody loved Biggles when I were a' growing up.
I read somewhere that the first books were written for adults and then re-targeted, so that a story where Biggles and the lads try to track down someone rumoured to have a bottle of pre-war whisky becomes a quest for a bottle of pre-war lemonade.
The first short strories of Biggles were quite gritty tales of sudden death and nervous exhaustion. At times even a bit Journey's End.
Later books are a bit more adventurous and lighter, with all sorts of dated attitudes, but I think never tee total!
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Can't wait to see Con and Lab manifestos based on remain
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
Why would we need to do that? the current funding for the NHS has not come from reduced EU subs.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Can't wait to see Con and Lab manifestos based on remain
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
Why would we need to do that? the current funding for the NHS has not come from reduced EU subs.
When have nuances ever mattered during a GE ?
Every time austerity is mentioned - leave parties can point to our EU payments - to maintain a huge balance of payments deficit.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Can't wait to see Con and Lab manifestos based on remain
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
Why would we need to do that? the current funding for the NHS has not come from reduced EU subs.
No, May specifically said it was using part of the Brexit Bonus.
MPs aren't going to enjoy being quizzed on why their local hospital can't cope, while we still write mega-cheques to Brussels - when they wouldn't implement their promise to Leave....
Mr. Meeks, makes me think of a starving man presented with three bowls of soup. Some bystanders say the first is poisoned, some the second, and others still the third. They might all be lying. They might all be right. But the starving man has to eat something. And he'll only learn the truth of one bowl.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Can't wait to see Con and Lab manifestos based on remain
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
What? Do you think anyone still believes that there is any form of brexit which will yield a net benefit of £350m a week to the country? Do you believe that yourself?
Morning all. The big big news is that I have changed my position on REF2. I still don't want one (unpleasant and divisive) and I still don't think it's coming (unless Labour win a GE offering it) but I do now think there is a solid case for it in principle.
It was a comment from our arch europhile, W Glenn, that got me thinking. He pointed out that even if we leave with No Deal, the EU will not countenance serious trade and future relationship talks unless we commit legally to 3 things, (i) settle our bills, (ii) no deportations, (iii) no border in Ireland.
Recognize that? I do too. It is the essence of the Withdrawal Agreement. It is the Deal. And if true (and it feels like the truth to me) it means that leaving via the Deal is not merely one form of Leave it is the only form of Leave that is possible in the real world as opposed to a fantasy one.
Therefore if MPs cannot find it in their hearts to pass it, what they are saying is that the only realistic form of Leave is unacceptable. Or put another way, Brexit is not possible except in dreamland.
But that is not on. Because in 2016 the people voted to Leave. So a GE to get a different parliament would seem to be in order.
However if that is not possible, or if it is but it fails to unblock the impasse, then yes, REF2, back to the people with the real and only choice - do you want to leave in the only way it is possible to leave or do you, seeing now the reality of leaving, want to stay in the EU?
DEAL vs REMAIN referendum. It is not unfair. It is not a gerrymander. It is not a farce. I take all that back. It works.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
The disaffected public have moved mainly to parties more sympathetic to Remain.
Labour does not seem to me to be the least sympathetic to Remain.
I'm confused by the double negative - do you mean Labour seems to you more or less sympathetic to Remain than the Conservatives? Alastair's post implies "more". The LibDems are obviously "Most" and they're picking up too. CUK not so much, but they're seen (insofar as people think of them at all) more as anti-Corbyn Labour than super-Remainers.
Morning all. Dyed Woolies patented anti incumbency penalty is going to provide much larks when we get a GE. Which I think is soon, probably July after a lightning tory leader contest, or sooner if the ERG split out in disgust. I think May will quit tomorrow unless she gets June 30, she said she's not going beyond that date with Brexit and we have a non functioning govt. If they grant June 30 and there is a conlab deal I think she goes as soon as it passes parliament. She will remain as PM till the leadership election is done probably if not caretaker Lidington who will agree not to stand These are my morning thoughts
So, as Westminster becomes increasingly irrelevant, attention turns to the EU Council meeting and the outcomes thereof.
With the 30/6 extension plan having been kicked into touch, it looks as though May will be forced to accept an extension to a minimum of 31/12/19 and perhaps beyond. With the option to revoke politically impossible and the option to walk away without a Deal blocked by the Commons, May will have to accept whatever the EU is prepared to give us.
For many, that will be the final humiliation. Instead of leaving confidently, with heads held high, the image of May going cap in hand to the EU to beg for more time is proving extraordinarily salient among the LEAVE fraternity who, if we are to believe the polls, are deserting the Conservatives in numbers.
Oddly enough, once the extension is agreed, I suspect Brexit will quickly drop off the news agenda which may give May a chance to recover some initiative before the local elections. The question is whether accepting the extension will trigger a further round of Government resignations - there are clearly a number of Conservative MPs, both within ERG and beyond, who are part of the "we want this over with" tendency and would happily see us walk out without a deal on Friday night.
I can't see it - for all the reservations from Macron and others, Tusk, who has been a real friend and ally to this country, seems to have stopped any attempt to block any extension at all. It will be a long extension and there may be some humiliating checks added to ensure we don't, as JRM and others have suggested, try to wreck the EU from within by obstruction.
An utterly shit take by wings: at best completely missing the point and at worst duplicitously mendacious.
Sealioning is not asking questions, Sealioning is asking questions in bad faith as a form of attack.
Saying "imagine if the comic started with a hateful statement" is no where near as clever as Campbell thinks as the whole reason the comic is structured thus is that sealions aren't a class of people, they are sealions.
(rest assured that the UK political system = Remainers)
He seems to be suffering from some kind of breakdown. Now that Remainers are unworthy of Britain and the queen's failure to stop Brexit means that the country must become a republic, one wonders what new purity tests he has in mind for us.
If only those ungrateful Scots and Northern Irish had realised that being dragged out of the EU against their will by geriatric English nationalists was a glorious opportunity to create a vibrant new British identity!
It could equally be, "I don't mind most root vegetables but I could do without carrots" and then an anthropomorphic carrots turns up to harangue the ladies.
Morning all. The big big news is that I have changed my position on REF2. I still don't want one (unpleasant and divisive) and I still don't think it's coming (unless Labour win a GE offering it) but I do now think there is a solid case for it in principle.
It was a comment from our arch europhile, W Glenn, that got me thinking. He pointed out that even if we leave with No Deal, the EU will not countenance serious trade and future relationship talks unless we commit legally to 3 things, (i) settle our bills, (ii) no deportations, (iii) no border in Ireland.
Recognize that? I do too. It is the essence of the Withdrawal Agreement. It is the Deal. And if true (and it feels like the truth to me) it means that leaving via the Deal is not merely one form of Leave it is the only form of Leave that is possible in the real world as opposed to a fantasy one.
Therefore if MPs cannot find it in their hearts to pass it, what they are saying is that the only realistic form of Leave is unacceptable. Or put another way, Brexit is not possible except in dreamland.
But that is not on. Because in 2016 the people voted to Leave. So a GE to get a different parliament would seem to be in order.
However if that is not possible, or if it is but it fails to unblock the impasse, then yes, REF2, back to the people with the real and only choice - do you want to leave in the only way it is possible to leave or do you, seeing now the reality of leaving, want to stay in the EU?
DEAL vs REMAIN referendum. It is not unfair. It is not a gerrymander. It is not a farce. I take all that back. It works.
Indeed. Anyone that tries to say we can walk away from our obligations with impunity is either thick or lying; they are either an IDS or a Boris.
So, as Westminster becomes increasingly irrelevant, attention turns to the EU Council meeting and the outcomes thereof.
With the 30/6 extension plan having been kicked into touch, it looks as though May will be forced to accept an extension to a minimum of 31/12/19 and perhaps beyond. With the option to revoke politically impossible and the option to walk away without a Deal blocked by the Commons, May will have to accept whatever the EU is prepared to give us.
For many, that will be the final humiliation. Instead of leaving confidently, with heads held high, the image of May going cap in hand to the EU to beg for more time is proving extraordinarily salient among the LEAVE fraternity who, if we are to believe the polls, are deserting the Conservatives in numbers.
Oddly enough, once the extension is agreed, I suspect Brexit will quickly drop off the news agenda which may give May a chance to recover some initiative before the local elections. The question is whether accepting the extension will trigger a further round of Government resignations - there are clearly a number of Conservative MPs, both within ERG and beyond, who are part of the "we want this over with" tendency and would happily see us walk out without a deal on Friday night.
I can't see it - for all the reservations from Macron and others, Tusk, who has been a real friend and ally to this country, seems to have stopped any attempt to block any extension at all. It will be a long extension and there may be some humiliating checks added to ensure we don't, as JRM and others have suggested, try to wreck the EU from within by obstruction.
Good post, but I can't see Brexit quickly dropping off the news agenda with the Euro Elections looming.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
They will always be
That’s why these sort of decisions shouldn’t be up to the legislature
The letter is superbly bonkers. It starts off OK with some cod-legalese about the will of parliament being enshrined, exclusively, in Acts of Parliament, but then veers off in a splendid handbrake-turn to argue that an extension to the Article 50 period is illegal because the PM has said something.
The letter is superbly bonkers. It starts off OK with some cod-legalese about the will of parliament being enshrined, ultimately, in Acts of Parliament, but then veers off in a splendid handbrake-turn to argue that an extension to the Article 50 period is illegal because the PM has said something.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
The disaffected public have moved mainly to parties more sympathetic to Remain.
Labour does not seem to me to be the least sympathetic to Remain.
I'm confused by the double negative - do you mean Labour seems to you more or less sympathetic to Remain than the Conservatives? Alastair's post implies "more". The LibDems are obviously "Most" and they're picking up too. CUK not so much, but they're seen (insofar as people think of them at all) more as anti-Corbyn Labour than super-Remainers.
I think it meant "...does not seem to me to be in the least sympathetic to Remain.", or "not in the least sympathetic".
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Can't wait to see Con and Lab manifestos based on remain
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
Why would we need to do that? the current funding for the NHS has not come from reduced EU subs.
No, May specifically said it was using part of the Brexit Bonus.
MPs aren't going to enjoy being quizzed on why their local hospital can't cope, while we still write mega-cheques to Brussels - when they wouldn't implement their promise to Leave....
England NHS budget 128 billion. UK net contribution to EU 9 billion. Get real.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
They will always be
That’s why these sort of decisions shouldn’t be up to the legislature
Yep. As @isam has pointed out the moment Grieve forced Parliament to have a "meaningful vote" on any deal May came up with the result was only ever going to be chaos and paralysis.
Morning all. The big big news is that I have changed my position on REF2. I still don't want one (unpleasant and divisive) and I still don't think it's coming (unless Labour win a GE offering it) but I do now think there is a solid case for it in principle.
It was a comment from our arch europhile, W Glenn, that got me thinking. He pointed out that even if we leave with No Deal, the EU will not countenance serious trade and future relationship talks unless we commit legally to 3 things, (i) settle our bills, (ii) no deportations, (iii) no border in Ireland.
Recognize that? I do too. It is the essence of the Withdrawal Agreement. It is the Deal. And if true (and it feels like the truth to me) it means that leaving via the Deal is not merely one form of Leave it is the only form of Leave that is possible in the real world as opposed to a fantasy one.
Therefore if MPs cannot find it in their hearts to pass it, what they are saying is that the only realistic form of Leave is unacceptable. Or put another way, Brexit is not possible except in dreamland.
But that is not on. Because in 2016 the people voted to Leave. So a GE to get a different parliament would seem to be in order.
However if that is not possible, or if it is but it fails to unblock the impasse, then yes, REF2, back to the people with the real and only choice - do you want to leave in the only way it is possible to leave or do you, seeing now the reality of leaving, want to stay in the EU?
DEAL vs REMAIN referendum. It is not unfair. It is not a gerrymander. It is not a farce. I take all that back. It works.
Cons being hammered for May's failure to deliver Brexit.
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Theresa May has to go once she's secured the extension it's as simple as that.
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
And if it turns out to be an (even more) heavily Remainer Parliament, what then.
In that case we'll have to call the whole thing off (or rather the Labour government will) and we'll have to deal with the fall out after that.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
Can't wait to see Con and Lab manifestos based on remain
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
Why would we need to do that? the current funding for the NHS has not come from reduced EU subs.
No, May specifically said it was using part of the Brexit Bonus.
MPs aren't going to enjoy being quizzed on why their local hospital can't cope, while we still write mega-cheques to Brussels - when they wouldn't implement their promise to Leave....
What is this Brexit bonus of which you speak? currently we are still paying full subs.
or is it the £350 million per week that is the fiction?
That’s why these sort of decisions shouldn’t be up to the legislature
So we should put it back to the people...
Yes but via a general election not another referendum.
You cannot dictate what people vote *about* in a GE. If Corbyn promises to abolish University fees and May promises to abolish inheritance tax, what makes you think people will base their vote on the small print about brexit?
Indeed. Anyone that tries to say we can walk away from our obligations with impunity is either thick or lying; they are either an IDS or a Boris.
This is the nub of it. We can leave the EU, of course we can, but because we are not a rogue state we do NOT welsh on our debts and we do NOT play fast and loose either with citizens' rights or with the Irish peace process.
We are Britain, for heaven's sake. We invented fair play. We brought it to a world of unruliness and barbarity. Mark Francois would no doubt agree with that, so why is he and his ilk behaving in such an unBritish way over this? Answers on a postcard.
Yes but via a general election not another referendum.
Why can we ask the people to vote again on who represents them, but not on Brexit?
Doesn't sound very democratic...
Because we voted on that three years ago and the result has not been implemented because of parliament. The MPs should now face the electorate and explain their actions.
Morning all. The big big news is that I have changed my position on REF2. I still don't want one (unpleasant and divisive) and I still don't think it's coming (unless Labour win a GE offering it) but I do now think there is a solid case for it in principle.
It was a comment from our arch europhile, W Glenn, that got me thinking. He pointed out that even if we leave with No Deal, the EU will not countenance serious trade and future relationship talks unless we commit legally to 3 things, (i) settle our bills, (ii) no deportations, (iii) no border in Ireland.
Recognize that? I do too. It is the essence of the Withdrawal Agreement. It is the Deal. And if true (and it feels like the truth to me) it means that leaving via the Deal is not merely one form of Leave it is the only form of Leave that is possible in the real world as opposed to a fantasy one.
Therefore if MPs cannot find it in their hearts to pass it, what they are saying is that the only realistic form of Leave is unacceptable. Or put another way, Brexit is not possible except in dreamland.
But that is not on. Because in 2016 the people voted to Leave. So a GE to get a different parliament would seem to be in order.
However if that is not possible, or if it is but it fails to unblock the impasse, then yes, REF2, back to the people with the real and only choice - do you want to leave in the only way it is possible to leave or do you, seeing now the reality of leaving, want to stay in the EU?
DEAL vs REMAIN referendum. It is not unfair. It is not a gerrymander. It is not a farce. I take all that back. It works.
A rational argument, which will no doubt meet with an irrational response.
There was (and conceivably still is) one other possible form of leave (some variant of Norway / Common Market 2), but that hardly invalidates your point. And it's a bit difficult to see a direct route to it now, anyway.
We are Britain, for heaven's sake. We invented fair play. We brought it to a world of unruliness and barbarity. Mark Francois would no doubt agree with that, so why is he and his ilk behaving in such an unBritish way over this? Answers on a postcard.
Morning all. The big big news is that I have changed my position on REF2. I still don't want one (unpleasant and divisive) and I still don't think it's coming (unless Labour win a GE offering it) but I do now think there is a solid case for it in principle.
It was a comment from our arch europhile, W Glenn, that got me thinking. He pointed out that even if we leave with No Deal, the EU will not countenance serious trade and future relationship talks unless we commit legally to 3 things, (i) settle our bills, (ii) no deportations, (iii) no border in Ireland.
Recognize that? I do too. It is the essence of the Withdrawal Agreement. It is the Deal. And if true (and it feels like the truth to me) it means that leaving via the Deal is not merely one form of Leave it is the only form of Leave that is possible in the real world as opposed to a fantasy one.
Therefore if MPs cannot find it in their hearts to pass it, what they are saying is that the only realistic form of Leave is unacceptable. Or put another way, Brexit is not possible except in dreamland.
But that is not on. Because in 2016 the people voted to Leave. So a GE to get a different parliament would seem to be in order.
However if that is not possible, or if it is but it fails to unblock the impasse, then yes, REF2, back to the people with the real and only choice - do you want to leave in the only way it is possible to leave or do you, seeing now the reality of leaving, want to stay in the EU?
DEAL vs REMAIN referendum. It is not unfair. It is not a gerrymander. It is not a farce. I take all that back. It works.
A rational argument, which will no doubt meet with an irrational response.
There was (and conceivably still is) one other possible form of leave (some variant of Norway / Common Market 2), but that hardly invalidates your point. And it's a bit difficult to see a direct route to it now, anyway.
All routes from here (including Norway / Common Market 2) require May's Deal as a starting point...
A deal versus remain referendum to be held ASAP is the best way out of the mess. It is the worst option apart from all the others. A GE will not help at all - it is being proposed by those who think Labour will win and I cannot believe they are seriously trying to address the Brexit impasse. May's deal is a deliverable Brexit in the short term and probably, given need for negotiations on final settlement, in the long term. Given where we are a "hard Brexit" option does not need to be offered but MPs on a cross-party basis need to argue hard it is a dangerous fantasy. Although I sympathise with some leaver arguments I would vote remain again given the option but I could live with the deal.
Because we voted on that three years ago and the result has not been implemented because of parliament. The MPs should now face the electorate and explain their actions.
yes, the lunatic Brexiteers who failed to vote for leaving 3 times should explain to their voters why them voting against leaving was them delivering Brexit...
Yes but via a general election not another referendum.
Why can we ask the people to vote again on who represents them, but not on Brexit?
Doesn't sound very democratic...
*SIGH*
Because we asked them in 2016 and they gave a decision but Parliament has refused to implement that decision so we need a general election to sort out how or whether that decision will be be implemented.
Comments
The PM and the cabinet have failed. No excuses.
Giving MPs who promised to implement the referendum result, but voted against the deal, a pass because they were looking to see what others were going to do before voting is crazy partisanship
I voted remain but not without wavering several times. Watching the respective performances of the ERG and the EU leadership I've become quite a Europhile!
There then needs to be a new leader (Remainers need not apply after May) who is committed to actually delivering Brexit, followed by a new Cabinet, followed by a new Parliament via a general election.
Displays an ignorance of Sturgeon's Law.
Labour and the other parties are doing exactly what they were elected and are paid to do which is to oppose.
So it is the ERG who are responsible in the main for this mess...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2019/04/08/300000-toddlers-have-never-read-nursery-rhyme-parents-study/
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1115863865861054464
(rest assured that the UK political system = Remainers)
It's the perfect storm - Tories losing frustrated leavers to Ukip and losing anxious remainers to Labour and the LibDems.
"Checkout staff responsible for Debenhams demise" ?
And from what I can see, some at least of the more strident Brexiteers aren't going to vote, 'if they're not going to take any notice'!
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-theresa-mays-plea-brussels-14271623?ncid=newsletter-ukThe Waugh Zone 100419&utm_campaign=newsletter-The Waugh Zone 100419
Happened to Labour under Gordon Brown - no lessons learned.
We could have done that whenever we wanted to if there was the political will. If we are only doing it after Brexit does that assume that we will be no further financial contributions yes that imply that we will be mSo in other words we could do it was that point or are we doing it anyway (ie the EU contribution issue is a red herring)?
And if it was the other way round and Kezia was sueing Wings, I'd hope he'd win the case.
It's my view that the courts should only be involved with speech on the most serious and grave matters which I appreciate isn't the case unfortunately.
Either the part of the group first described on this site as the Spartans will escape Tory gravity altogether, and soar off into the stratosphere to take its chances on another planet, or else fold back with a deflated sigh into the all-embracing bosom of Celestial Body Conservative. History suggests the latter. None the less, the words of the Speaker loom ominously to mind: “If we only went by precedent, manifestly nothing would ever change”.
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/04/the-spartans-will-they-escape-tory-gravity-and-soar-to-another-planet-or-sink-back-into-celestial-body-conservative.html
Even though the Leadership and official position is for Brexit, it is clear that under Labour it would not be a No Deal or other hard Brexit, and the concerns of many Remainers on workers, consumer and environmental protections would be very closely aligned with the EU.
I would not be a fan of other aspects of a Corbyn government, but I could live with its Brexit policy.
One way or another though this has got to be resolved. We can't keep going along making complete and utter fools of ourselves because MPs are too paralyzed to make a decision.
If the boneheads get her out though.....
"Let's forget about the silly referendum and focus on how to run the NHS with £350m a week less"
Later books are a bit more adventurous and lighter, with all sorts of dated attitudes, but I think never tee total!
There’s no mandate for no deal .
Cabinet unity is now non-existent.
Every time austerity is mentioned - leave parties can point to our EU payments - to maintain a huge balance of payments deficit.
MPs aren't going to enjoy being quizzed on why their local hospital can't cope, while we still write mega-cheques to Brussels - when they wouldn't implement their promise to Leave....
It was a comment from our arch europhile, W Glenn, that got me thinking. He pointed out that even if we leave with No Deal, the EU will not countenance serious trade and future relationship talks unless we commit legally to 3 things, (i) settle our bills, (ii) no deportations, (iii) no border in Ireland.
Recognize that? I do too. It is the essence of the Withdrawal Agreement. It is the Deal. And if true (and it feels like the truth to me) it means that leaving via the Deal is not merely one form of Leave it is the only form of Leave that is possible in the real world as opposed to a fantasy one.
Therefore if MPs cannot find it in their hearts to pass it, what they are saying is that the only realistic form of Leave is unacceptable. Or put another way, Brexit is not possible except in dreamland.
But that is not on. Because in 2016 the people voted to Leave. So a GE to get a different parliament would seem to be in order.
However if that is not possible, or if it is but it fails to unblock the impasse, then yes, REF2, back to the people with the real and only choice - do you want to leave in the only way it is possible to leave or do you, seeing now the reality of leaving, want to stay in the EU?
DEAL vs REMAIN referendum. It is not unfair. It is not a gerrymander. It is not a farce. I take all that back. It works.
I think May will quit tomorrow unless she gets June 30, she said she's not going beyond that date with Brexit and we have a non functioning govt. If they grant June 30 and there is a conlab deal I think she goes as soon as it passes parliament. She will remain as PM till the leadership election is done probably if not caretaker Lidington who will agree not to stand
These are my morning thoughts
So, as Westminster becomes increasingly irrelevant, attention turns to the EU Council meeting and the outcomes thereof.
With the 30/6 extension plan having been kicked into touch, it looks as though May will be forced to accept an extension to a minimum of 31/12/19 and perhaps beyond. With the option to revoke politically impossible and the option to walk away without a Deal blocked by the Commons, May will have to accept whatever the EU is prepared to give us.
For many, that will be the final humiliation. Instead of leaving confidently, with heads held high, the image of May going cap in hand to the EU to beg for more time is proving extraordinarily salient among the LEAVE fraternity who, if we are to believe the polls, are deserting the Conservatives in numbers.
Oddly enough, once the extension is agreed, I suspect Brexit will quickly drop off the news agenda which may give May a chance to recover some initiative before the local elections. The question is whether accepting the extension will trigger a further round of Government resignations - there are clearly a number of Conservative MPs, both within ERG and beyond, who are part of the "we want this over with" tendency and would happily see us walk out without a deal on Friday night.
I can't see it - for all the reservations from Macron and others, Tusk, who has been a real friend and ally to this country, seems to have stopped any attempt to block any extension at all. It will be a long extension and there may be some humiliating checks added to ensure we don't, as JRM and others have suggested, try to wreck the EU from within by obstruction.
Sealioning is not asking questions, Sealioning is asking questions in bad faith as a form of attack.
Saying "imagine if the comic started with a hateful statement" is no where near as clever as Campbell thinks as the whole reason the comic is structured thus is that sealions aren't a class of people, they are sealions.
That’s why these sort of decisions shouldn’t be up to the legislature
https://twitter.com/BillCashMP/status/1115896054417907715/photo/1
The letter is superbly bonkers. It starts off OK with some cod-legalese about the will of parliament being enshrined, exclusively, in Acts of Parliament, but then veers off in a splendid handbrake-turn to argue that an extension to the Article 50 period is illegal because the PM has said something.
Munch through 20,000 calories a day before sentencing.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ghost-hunter-deemed-too-fat-14273569
or is it the £350 million per week that is the fiction?
https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1115880873998671875
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1115913206923497473
Doesn't sound very democratic...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/10/labour-considers-house-price-inflation-target-for-bank-of-england
We are Britain, for heaven's sake. We invented fair play. We brought it to a world of unruliness and barbarity. Mark Francois would no doubt agree with that, so why is he and his ilk behaving in such an unBritish way over this? Answers on a postcard.
There was (and conceivably still is) one other possible form of leave (some variant of Norway / Common Market 2), but that hardly invalidates your point. And it's a bit difficult to see a direct route to it now, anyway.
Because we asked them in 2016 and they gave a decision but Parliament has refused to implement that decision so we need a general election to sort out how or whether that decision will be be implemented.