... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
I doubt the man in the street would think that. But they (I think) will be frustrated that they are being asked the same question again with no apparent change in the UK’s status.
I think that is true. Hence, and I am one of many fervent PB Remainers who sees very little merit in a second referendum, it would have to be a Deal vs Remain option, which would allow them (us) to confirm the flavour of leaving, and thus some progress and control vs EURef 1 because lest we forget the Deal is leaving.
So why not include No Deal? Because, simply, that would be too great a degree of self harm to ask the country to inflict upon itself.
It just cant be Deal vs Remain, It would be like having Leave vs Remain without FOM. It would disenfranchise millions of voters
Absolute rubbish.
No - spot on. Like it or not No Deal is polling around 40pc. A referendum which excluded this option would be utterly without substance and would certainly settle nothing. I do not believe ingovernment by referendum. I deplore the 2016 vote and a putative Deal vs Remain sequel would be even worse. We are in a hole because of our leaders' resort to this tawdry device. We need to stop digging.
No Deal is only polling 40% due to lack of detail. Were anyone to see the consequences 12 months after the ERG's no deal occurred (when exports have been reduced to 0) and 24 months as all benefits and pensions are cut to the bear minimum as tax revenue disappeared no one would be voting for it.
The EU wouldn't agree an extension for the purposes of a vote on No Deal. It would be far better for them to push us to No Deal now rather than later.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
Assuming the can does get kicked for many months, would others agree with @TGOHF's assessment that Theresa May will be ordered a removal van this weekend? I think I do. What does the brains trust think?
These last couple of days have shocked both my wife and I to the core and we will resign from the party the minute Johnson is installed as PM
You'll be in the party for a while then - Boris wont win.
If 4 MPs go to the members, I wouldn't be so sure. I can see him getting 40%. Who is going to get 41%? (Maybe if Gove did a Double-Rat, stood as one of the 4, then told the members to vote for the person best placed to beat Boris. Wouldn't put it past him.)
... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
MPs have failed to convince the public on that - the loss of trust after the referendum has been "ignored" means it is very difficult to get any message across - true or false.
I doubt the man in the street would think that. But they (I think) will be frustrated that they are being asked the same question again with no apparent change in the UK’s status.
I think that is true. Hence, and I am one of many fervent PB Remainers who sees very little merit in a second referendum, it would have to be a Deal vs Remain option, which would allow them (us) to confirm the flavour of leaving, and thus some progress and control vs EURef 1 because lest we forget the Deal is leaving.
So why not include No Deal? Because, simply, that would be too great a degree of self harm to ask the country to inflict upon itself.
It just cant be Deal vs Remain, It would be like having Leave vs Remain without FOM. It would disenfranchise millions of voters
Deal vs Remain is the real choice parliament is faced with. Why not turn it over to the people?
For all we know, a large proportion of the votes that got Leave over the line were from people who wanted to leave with No Deal, why should they be disenfranchised because MPs changed the rules after the vote?
Getting leave over the line isn't enough - unless 100% of those who voted leave are happy with No Deal (Oborne and myself confirm that isn't the case) No Deal isn't an end state 52% of the population would be happy with.
BTW I could just about cope with No Deal were the UK to impose maximum tariffs but the idea from the ERG that tariffs should be 0 is completely and utterly insane.
Re the Euros we should agree the ground rules for how we interpret the results of what is clearly a de facto 'People's Vote'.
I suggest we define REMAIN to be Change + LDs and LEAVE to be Brexit + Ukip. England only since the other nations are laws unto themselves and almost impossible to understand.
Then if it's a clear win for one or the other that's it, game over, The People Have Spoken.
A long extension allows the ERG to keep voting no and hoping for no deal .The pro second vote to keep hoping . The country is becoming more polarized .
As was shown by recent polling . Revoke 40 v No deal 38 .
As a Remainer it now looks like I’m a soft Remainer even though you’d be hard pressed to find many as pro EU as me . I would find it very difficult to agree revoke. Any vote to Remain has to be with a second vote not done by MPs. I really hope MPs are not put in this position because it’s truly horrible .
Parties must find a compromise , they must understand the country is becoming even less united than 2016.
I really fear for the UK , it really saddens me that it’s come to this .
We need a better PM - we've basically been without one for 3 years.
The Tory party is unleadable. A new PM will be no more likely to succeed than May. Mark Francois is never going to agree a Brexit policy with Dominic Grieve.
A long extension allows the ERG to keep voting no and hoping for no deal .The pro second vote to keep hoping . The country is becoming more polarized .
As was shown by recent polling . Revoke 40 v No deal 38 .
As a Remainer it now looks like I’m a soft Remainer even though you’d be hard pressed to find many as pro EU as me . I would find it very difficult to agree revoke. Any vote to Remain has to be with a second vote not done by MPs. I really hope MPs are not put in this position because it’s truly horrible .
Parties must find a compromise , they must understand the country is becoming even less united than 2016.
I really fear for the UK , it really saddens me that it’s come to this .
We need a better PM - we've basically been without one for 3 years.
The Tory party is unleadable. A new PM will be no more likely to succeed than May. Mark Francois is never going to agree a Brexit policy with Dominic Grieve.
Cameron thought that a referendum won by remain would silence the EU argument within the Tory party for ever.
Instead it's going to destroy it (and unless they are careful the union as well).
OT. What's happened to all the decent sub-editors? I heard that Chelsea player Danny Drinkwater had been charged with drunk driving. Having just looked through the papers there isn't even one that made me smile.
Pooor DD. He couldn't resist the transfer fee to Chelsea to sit on the bench, and most weeks not even that. He was a great player for Leicester City and should have stayed and enjoyed his football here. Sadly brought low by overreaching himself.
He must lead a complicated life. He lives on the Mere near Manchester and plays in London (occasionally). Possibly drowning his sorrows. Must be depressing to get so few games.
Loadsamoney is no compensation for loss of purpose in the prime of his career. It is a sad tale, like George Best without the charisma.
A long extension allows the ERG to keep voting no and hoping for no deal .The pro second vote to keep hoping . The country is becoming more polarized .
As was shown by recent polling . Revoke 40 v No deal 38 .
As a Remainer it now looks like I’m a soft Remainer even though you’d be hard pressed to find many as pro EU as me . I would find it very difficult to agree revoke. Any vote to Remain has to be with a second vote not done by MPs. I really hope MPs are not put in this position because it’s truly horrible .
Parties must find a compromise , they must understand the country is becoming even less united than 2016.
I really fear for the UK , it really saddens me that it’s come to this .
We need a better PM - we've basically been without one for 3 years.
The Tory party is unleadable. A new PM will be no more likely to succeed than May. Mark Francois is never going to agree a Brexit policy with Dominic Grieve.
Disagree - a new PM will have a period to establish discipline and order.
Much vilified but Donald Tusk continues to remain a good friend of the UK.
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
MPs have failed to convince the public on that - the loss of trust after the referendum has been "ignored" means it is very difficult to get any message across - true or false.
Yes, but one assumes that most MPs are putting what the honestly believe to be the best interests of the country first. The problem is that there is now no course of action that does not damage the country in one way or another. As I've said before, the only winner now from Brexit is Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
MPs have failed to convince the public on that - the loss of trust after the referendum has been "ignored" means it is very difficult to get any message across - true or false.
That may be, but principled MPs are being asked to choose between anger at the referendum result being frustrated, or even greater anger at the catastrophic consequences of a no-deal crash out.
Of course, those MPs (such as most of the Labour Party) who are not acting honourably and who voted down the deal for party-political reasons are another matter,
... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
I am not asking them to vote for No Deal at all. I have constantly said they should vote for Theresa May's deal.
What I am saying is that having a referendum where the options are Remain or one version of Leave disenfranchises voters who want to leave but don't like that version. The other versions aren't simply No Deal.
I doubt the man in the street would think that. But they (I think) will be frustrated that they are being asked the same question again with no apparent change in the UK’s status.
I think that is true. Hence, and I am one of many fervent PB Remainers who sees very little merit in a second referendum, it would have to be a Deal vs Remain option, which would allow them (us) to confirm the flavour of leaving, and thus some progress and control vs EURef 1 because lest we forget the Deal is leaving.
So why not include No Deal? Because, simply, that would be too great a degree of self harm to ask the country to inflict upon itself.
It just cant be Deal vs Remain, It would be like having Leave vs Remain without FOM. It would disenfranchise millions of voters
Deal vs Remain is the real choice parliament is faced with. Why not turn it over to the people?
For all we know, a large proportion of the votes that got Leave over the line were from people who wanted to leave with No Deal, why should they be disenfranchised because MPs changed the rules after the vote?
Getting leave over the line isn't enough - unless 100% of those who voted leave are happy with No Deal (Oborne and myself confirm that isn't the case) No Deal isn't an end state 52% of the population would be happy with.
BTW I could just about cope with No Deal were the UK to impose maximum tariffs but the idea from the ERG that tariffs should be 0 is completely and utterly insane.
No one is making you vote for it
Your statement was
"For all we know, a large proportion of the votes that got Leave over the line were from people who wanted to leave with No Deal, why should they be disenfranchised because MPs changed the rules after the vote?"
My comment was that you can equally argue that it was those after the softest possible outcome who got leave over the line...
Much vilified but Donald Tusk continues to remain a good friend of the UK.
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
Much vilified but Donald Tusk continues to remain a good friend of the UK.
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
Yes, he's a good bloke.
True , he’s desperately sad that we’re leaving and you can see that every time he holds a news conference . But above all he wants good relations after Brexit .
... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
I am not asking them to vote for No Deal at all. I have constantly said they should vote for Theresa May's deal.
What I am saying is that having a referendum where the options are Remain or one version of Leave disenfranchises voters who want to leave but don't like that version. The other versions aren't simply No Deal.
It doesn't disenfranchise them. It asks them to choose which of the two available options they want. Only one policy can be implemented, so it can't be a pick-and-mix offer.
Much vilified but Donald Tusk continues to remain a good friend of the UK.
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
Yes, he's a good bloke.
He's clearly very keen for the UK to stay in the EU.
... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
I am not asking them to vote for No Deal at all. I have constantly said they should vote for Theresa May's deal.
What I am saying is that having a referendum where the options are Remain or one version of Leave disenfranchises voters who want to leave but don't like that version. The other versions aren't simply No Deal.
Ratifying the withdrawal agreement isn't "one version of Leave". It's the only version of Leave. The alternative is agreeing the same terms in chaotic circumstances. It would be dishonest to present it to people as an alternative.
A long extension allows the ERG to keep voting no and hoping for no deal .The pro second vote to keep hoping . The country is becoming more polarized .
As was shown by recent polling . Revoke 40 v No deal 38 .
As a Remainer it now looks like I’m a soft Remainer even though you’d be hard pressed to find many as pro EU as me . I would find it very difficult to agree revoke. Any vote to Remain has to be with a second vote not done by MPs. I really hope MPs are not put in this position because it’s truly horrible .
Parties must find a compromise , they must understand the country is becoming even less united than 2016.
I really fear for the UK , it really saddens me that it’s come to this .
We need a better PM - we've basically been without one for 3 years.
The Tory party is unleadable. A new PM will be no more likely to succeed than May. Mark Francois is never going to agree a Brexit policy with Dominic Grieve.
Disagree - a new PM will have a period to establish discipline and order.
Not if it is Boris. He won't have a party left as both extremes fight each other
Assuming the can does get kicked for many months, would others agree with @TGOHF's assessment that Theresa May will be ordered a removal van this weekend? I think I do. What does the brains trust think?
These last couple of days have shocked both my wife and I to the core and we will resign from the party the minute Johnson is installed as PM
You'll be in the party for a while then - Boris wont win.
If 4 MPs go to the members, I wouldn't be so sure. I can see him getting 40%. Who is going to get 41%? (Maybe if Gove did a Double-Rat, stood as one of the 4, then told the members to vote for the person best placed to beat Boris. Wouldn't put it past him.)
Only 2 MPs go to the members or has something changed?
A long extension allows the ERG to keep voting no and hoping for no deal .The pro second vote to keep hoping . The country is becoming more polarized .
As was shown by recent polling . Revoke 40 v No deal 38 .
As a Remainer it now looks like I’m a soft Remainer even though you’d be hard pressed to find many as pro EU as me . I would find it very difficult to agree revoke. Any vote to Remain has to be with a second vote not done by MPs. I really hope MPs are not put in this position because it’s truly horrible .
Parties must find a compromise , they must understand the country is becoming even less united than 2016.
I really fear for the UK , it really saddens me that it’s come to this .
We need a better PM - we've basically been without one for 3 years.
The Tory party is unleadable. A new PM will be no more likely to succeed than May. Mark Francois is never going to agree a Brexit policy with Dominic Grieve.
Disagree - a new PM will have a period to establish discipline and order.
Not if it is Boris. He won't have a party left as both extremes fight each other
TBH I think that will be the case whoever is leader.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
A long extension allows the ERG to keep voting no and hoping for no deal .The pro second vote to keep hoping . The country is becoming more polarized .
As was shown by recent polling . Revoke 40 v No deal 38 .
As a Remainer it now looks like I’m a soft Remainer even though you’d be hard pressed to find many as pro EU as me . I would find it very difficult to agree revoke. Any vote to Remain has to be with a second vote not done by MPs. I really hope MPs are not put in this position because it’s truly horrible .
Parties must find a compromise , they must understand the country is becoming even less united than 2016.
I really fear for the UK , it really saddens me that it’s come to this .
We need a better PM - we've basically been without one for 3 years.
The Tory party is unleadable. A new PM will be no more likely to succeed than May. Mark Francois is never going to agree a Brexit policy with Dominic Grieve.
Disagree - a new PM will have a period to establish discipline and order.
Not if it is Boris. He won't have a party left as both extremes fight each other
TBH I think that will be the case whoever is leader.
... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
I am not asking them to vote for No Deal at all. I have constantly said they should vote for Theresa May's deal.
What I am saying is that having a referendum where the options are Remain or one version of Leave disenfranchises voters who want to leave but don't like that version. The other versions aren't simply No Deal.
It doesn't disenfranchise them. It asks them to choose which of the two available options they want. Only one policy can be implemented, so it can't be a pick-and-mix offer.
And May's deal isn't the final end point (which everyone seems to forget). May's Deal simply has us outside the EU negotiating the final situation although admittedly it's an insane position to be negotiating from..
Re the Euros we should agree the ground rules for how we interpret the results of what is clearly a de facto 'People's Vote'.
I suggest we define REMAIN to be Change + LDs and LEAVE to be Brexit + Ukip. England only since the other nations are laws unto themselves and almost impossible to understand.
Then if it's a clear win for one or the other that's it, game over, The People Have Spoken.
Just like in 2016.
Why not just have a referendum, rather than interpret an election?
Much vilified but Donald Tusk continues to remain a good friend of the UK.
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
Yes, he's a good bloke.
He's clearly very keen for the UK to stay in the EU.
Yes definitely but to him it’s not about economics , it’s really a heart thing for him that’s why he often becomes emotional when discussing Brexit .
His past life experience very much effects his view .
And May's deal isn't the final end point (which everyone seems to forget). May's Deal simply has us outside the EU negotiating the final situation although admittedly it's an insane position to be negotiating from..
Yes, it's completely barmy. But the EU won't budge on that, for reasons I've never understood.
Assuming the can does get kicked for many months, would others agree with @TGOHF's assessment that Theresa May will be ordered a removal van this weekend? I think I do. What does the brains trust think?
These last couple of days have shocked both my wife and I to the core and we will resign from the party the minute Johnson is installed as PM
You'll be in the party for a while then - Boris wont win.
If 4 MPs go to the members, I wouldn't be so sure. I can see him getting 40%. Who is going to get 41%? (Maybe if Gove did a Double-Rat, stood as one of the 4, then told the members to vote for the person best placed to beat Boris. Wouldn't put it past him.)
Only 2 MPs go to the members or has something changed?
Nothing has changed. The ERG realise they won't get the numbers so they are fantasising about gaming the rules to give them the outcome they'd like to see. ERG = fantasists.
A long extension allows the ERG to keep voting no and hoping for no deal .The pro second vote to keep hoping . The country is becoming more polarized .
As was shown by recent polling . Revoke 40 v No deal 38 .
As a Remainer it now looks like I’m a soft Remainer even though you’d be hard pressed to find many as pro EU as me . I would find it very difficult to agree revoke. Any vote to Remain has to be with a second vote not done by MPs. I really hope MPs are not put in this position because it’s truly horrible .
Parties must find a compromise , they must understand the country is becoming even less united than 2016.
I really fear for the UK , it really saddens me that it’s come to this .
We need a better PM - we've basically been without one for 3 years.
The Tory party is unleadable. A new PM will be no more likely to succeed than May. Mark Francois is never going to agree a Brexit policy with Dominic Grieve.
Disagree - a new PM will have a period to establish discipline and order.
Not if it is Boris. He won't have a party left as both extremes fight each other
TBH I think that will be the case whoever is leader.
Another reason why you can't count May out.
It's amazing May has survived this long but I wonder if she can go on any more - she is completely lacking in credibility and trust, she cannot move the Brexit process forward as no one trusts her and she cannot speak for her own party, or even her own cabinet. Truly she is in office but not in power.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
Assuming the can does get kicked for many months, would others agree with @TGOHF's assessment that Theresa May will be ordered a removal van this weekend? I think I do. What does the brains trust think?
These last couple of days have shocked both my wife and I to the core and we will resign from the party the minute Johnson is installed as PM
You'll be in the party for a while then - Boris wont win.
If 4 MPs go to the members, I wouldn't be so sure. I can see him getting 40%. Who is going to get 41%? (Maybe if Gove did a Double-Rat, stood as one of the 4, then told the members to vote for the person best placed to beat Boris. Wouldn't put it past him.)
Only 2 MPs go to the members or has something changed?
Nothing has changed. The ERG realise they won't get the numbers so they are fantasising about gaming the rules to give them the outcome they'd like to see. ERG = fantasists.
I'm in Bulgaria and spent 4 hours in a workshop - given how quickly things are happening at the moment things could have changed
Re the Euros we should agree the ground rules for how we interpret the results of what is clearly a de facto 'People's Vote'.
I suggest we define REMAIN to be Change + LDs and LEAVE to be Brexit + Ukip. England only since the other nations are laws unto themselves and almost impossible to understand.
Then if it's a clear win for one or the other that's it, game over, The People Have Spoken.
Just like in 2016.
Why not just have a referendum, rather than interpret an election?
If you want a referendum have a referendum. If you want to vote in the EU elections pick the party you expect to best represent your viewpoint for the next 5 years or however long we remain members.
Nice of them to pretend the WA might still be signed
The WA could well be signed following a PV to confirm public support for it.
I confidently predict that will never happen. Being so thoroughly trashed for so long it would lose againt remain.
Quite so, which is why Leavers are so adamant that there mustn't be a Remain vs Deal (any kind of deal) referendum. But that's their fault for trashing the agreement which would have brought them what they campaigned for.
Re the Euros we should agree the ground rules for how we interpret the results of what is clearly a de facto 'People's Vote'.
I suggest we define REMAIN to be Change + LDs and LEAVE to be Brexit + Ukip. England only since the other nations are laws unto themselves and almost impossible to understand.
Then if it's a clear win for one or the other that's it, game over, The People Have Spoken.
Just like in 2016.
Why not just have a referendum, rather than interpret an election?
If you want a referendum have a referendum. If you want to vote in the EU elections pick the party you expect to best represent your viewpoint for the next 5 years or however long we remain members.
Good luck with defining a no deal that not only wouldn't be subject to a categorical nonsense but that all groups could agree on.
You are quite right. NO DEAL is not sufficiently definable and furthermore as others have pointed out it is an option that almost every MP of sound character and sober disposition considers in all sincerity to be unconscionable. It cannot be included in a referendum.
But rcs1000 and ilk are also right to say that it MUST be included for any referendum to have democratic legitimacy. The May Deal vs Remain would be impossible to take seriously.
So there we go. Unless we can come up with a kind of quantum mechanical referendum that both has and does not have No Deal on the ballot paper the idea is doomed.
... and I'm suggesting that we are only at this stage thanks to a stitch up by the political elite, which the original vote was raging against.
Deal vs Remain is ludicrous. Nothing can surprise me now, the MPs are lower than the lowest of creatures, but it is demonstrably unfair.
What you don't quite seem to have got your head around is that most MPs believe, entirely sincerely, that crashing out with no deal and no transition would be utterly disastrous. I think they are right on this, but that isn't the point: the point is that they sincerely believe it.
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
That is a entirely reasonable position.
It is also true to say that a significant proportion of the electorate are indeed in favour of a chaotic crash-out.
I do think there is still an argument for including No Deal is a referendum, that it might be publicly defeated. It would, of course, be a strategy not without risk, and is therefore unlikely to be adopted by our rather craven Parliament.
Nice of them to pretend the WA might still be signed
The WA could well be signed following a PV to confirm public support for it.
I confidently predict that will never happen. Being so thoroughly trashed for so long it would lose againt remain.
Quite so, which is why Leavers are so adamant that there mustn't be a Remain vs Deal (any kind of deal) referendum. But that's their fault for trashing the agreement which would have brought them what they campaigned for.
But No deal isn't a sane option. Well it is until you discover as I stated earlier that exports and tax revenue dry up resulting in increased unemployment but reduced benefit and pension payments.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
It is also true to say that a significant proportion of the electorate are indeed in favour of a chaotic crash-out.
I do think there is still an argument for including No Deal is a referendum, that it might be publicly defeated. It would, of course, be a strategy not without risk, and is therefore unlikely to be adopted by our rather craven Parliament.
I expect that the appetite for risky referendums is well and truly sated, so 'craven' isn't the word I would use!
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
Good luck with defining a no deal that not only wouldn't be subject to a categorical nonsense but that all groups could agree on.
You are quite right. NO DEAL is not sufficiently definable and furthermore as others have pointed out it is an option that almost every MP of sound character and sober disposition considers in all sincerity to be unconscionable. It cannot be included in a referendum.
But rcs1000 and ilk are also right to say that it MUST be included for any referendum to have democratic legitimacy. The May Deal vs Remain would be impossible to take seriously.
So there we go. Unless we can come up with a kind of quantum mechanical referendum that both has and does not have No Deal on the ballot paper the idea is doomed.
So we rapidly turn to the sane option:-
Revoke stating that with my deal we cannot sanely leave the EU. Then have ???? to determine what happens next.
???? is because I haven't a clue how it would play out - a referendum causes problems, a general election causes a different set of problems...
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
I suspect if he ever finishes his book he won't be going on a signing tour
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
And May's deal isn't the final end point (which everyone seems to forget). May's Deal simply has us outside the EU negotiating the final situation although admittedly it's an insane position to be negotiating from..
Yes, it's completely barmy. But the EU won't budge on that, for reasons I've never understood.
They don't trust us and to them NI and citizens rights yes and cash are things they think we might renege on and frankly who can blame them?
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
The bigger problem would be a leave/remain/whatever referendum where the electorate defied the bien pensants/MPs and voted for leave. I can see nothing good from that.
Ratifying the withdrawal agreement isn't "one version of Leave". It's the only version of Leave. The alternative is agreeing the same terms in chaotic circumstances. It would be dishonest to present it to people as an alternative.
That’s actually a great point.
Perhaps I need to revisit my view that DEAL v REMAIN is a nonsense of a referendum.
In fact no perhaps about it - I do.
Doing that now and will not comment again until properly processed.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
The bigger problem would be a leave/remain/whatever referendum where the electorate defied the bien pensants/MPs and voted for leave. I can see nothing good from that.
If we had a Deal/Remain referendum and people voted Leave we'd be in a much better position than now because there would be a clear mandate for the next step. It would also allow parliamentary democracy to start functioning again properly.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
That is more than a bit complacent. Both parties are down to the low thirties and Corbyn is below TM by some distance.
'We're going to negotiate a deal and then put it to the people in a confirmatory vote - as previously suggested by my honourable and right-honourable colleagues Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Davis, John Redwood and Boris Johnson among others'.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
That is more than a bit complacent. Both parties are down to the low thirties and Corbyn is below TM by some distance.
It iis very much a plague on both your houses
It might be complacent if I wanted Labour to win.
But the Tories have to own this shambles. Their 'coalition of chaos' and 'strong and stable' slogans are going to haunt them.
A referendum would pit both sides against each other and it would be nasty and last for about 2 months. Two months of mud slinging about useless lying MPs.
The only reason that MPs want this is because they do not have the moral courage to revoke. If they revoke they could then stand on the stump, put their case forward and then the voters could either support them or vent their anger at them, but most importantly, do it at the ballot box.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as that.
I could stomach our MPs saying "we believe leaving is absolutely terrible for the country, therefore we are going to revoke article 50 - judge us at the next general election". It's fair, in the sense that our MPs are representatives, not delegates, and the referendum was advisory. And we take what happens next from the next general election, when we throw as many of this lot out on their ear as we can.
If on the other hand there's a second referendum with a narrow remain result, I will have nothing but contempt for it. It reeks of a stitch up, of unfairness. Why only respect the result of a referendum when your side wins? I won't vote again, except for a pox-on-all-your-houses party.
There are no easy answers, perhaps your nearest and dearest would be content with a second referendum. But there are still an awful lot of people who will feel cheated if the result of a second referendum was respected when the result of the first was so clearly not, and they will remain... hopping mad.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
That is more than a bit complacent. Both parties are down to the low thirties and Corbyn is below TM by some distance.
It iis very much a plague on both your houses
It might be complacent if I wanted Labour to win.
But the Tories have to own this shambles. Their 'coalition of chaos' and 'strong and stable' slogans are going to haunt them.
ERG certainly but labour are up to their eyes in this as well, hence both collapsing in the polls
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Or more pertinently, an MP who is completely opposed to her constituents on the issue.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
The bigger problem would be a leave/remain/whatever referendum where the electorate defied the bien pensants/MPs and voted for leave. I can see nothing good from that.
If we had a Deal/Remain referendum and people voted Leave we'd be in a much better position than now because there would be a clear mandate for the next step. It would also allow parliamentary democracy to start functioning again properly.
I'd go further and say a two stage Deal / No Deal / Remain referendum with the option polling lowest first time dropping out would be fair.
MPs will not vote for No Deal being on the referedum options though because of the catastrophic effects of No Deal on the country, as mentioned by numerous other posters.
Ratifying the withdrawal agreement isn't "one version of Leave". It's the only version of Leave. The alternative is agreeing the same terms in chaotic circumstances. It would be dishonest to present it to people as an alternative.
That’s actually a great point.
Perhaps I need to revisit my view that DEAL v REMAIN is a nonsense of a referendum.
In fact no perhaps about it - I do.
Doing that now and will not comment again until properly processed.
It's a great point but we are in a surreal world where these are the terms we need to play by.
Let the people find out the deal is only the end of the beginning.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Nope, Labour have been voting down every version of brexit offered. They are going to get as much of the blame for this as the Tories.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Nope, Labour have been voting down every version of brexit offered. They are going to get as much of the blame for this as the Tories.
Not as much. And they have a much larger base of remainers to fall back on.
A referendum would pit both sides against each other and it would be nasty and last for about 2 months. Two months of mud slinging about useless lying MPs.
The only reason that MPs want this is because they do not have the moral courage to revoke. If they revoke they could then stand on the stump, put their case forward and then the voters could either support them or vent their anger at them, but most importantly, do it at the ballot box.
I fear your 'two months' is optimistic - I think the Electoral Commission said 22 weeks would be required (though for the life of me I cannot see why it needs to be any more than 4 weeks).
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
The bigger problem would be a leave/remain/whatever referendum where the electorate defied the bien pensants/MPs and voted for leave. I can see nothing good from that.
If we had a Deal/Remain referendum and people voted Leave we'd be in a much better position than now because there would be a clear mandate for the next step. It would also allow parliamentary democracy to start functioning again properly.
I'd go further and say a two stage Deal / No Deal / Remain referendum with the option polling lowest first time dropping out would be fair.
MPs will not vote for No Deal being on the referedum options though because of the catastrophic effects of No Deal on the country, as mentioned by numerous other posters.
So as I will start to ask anyone suggesting No Deal - what exactly do you mean by No Deal?
For a starter should we impose tariffs or should we not impose tariffs and what is the consequences in both the short medium and long term of both options.
Equally how would British farmers fare with No Deal?
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Nope, Labour have been voting down every version of brexit offered. They are going to get as much of the blame for this as the Tories.
Every version of Brexit offered?! Please list the versions the Tory government has offered - I'll give you a start (and an end):
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Nope, Labour have been voting down every version of brexit offered. They are going to get as much of the blame for this as the Tories.
They really won’t, you know. Local elections should be fun to watch.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Nope, Labour have been voting down every version of brexit offered. They are going to get as much of the blame for this as the Tories.
The opposition is supposed to oppose. Granted they haven't been particularly good at it (otherwise the Tories would be sat in the polls at a maximum 20%) but it's not Labour's job to support the party in power if Labour isn't in power.
Reading anything into a sample of one isn't usually a good idea but in a recent and informative extended conversation with a leave voter that I know I feel that I got a feel for a (substantial?) body of opinion that I don't meet amongst work colleagues and family. The person in question is strongly pro-leave but would politically be a floating voter under "normal" circumstances and they are not historically a Tory voter.
To summarise: 1. May trying hard under difficult circumstances and her deal would be ok. 2. MPs as a whole are an utter disgrace. 3. Would be very angry if we don't leave. 4. Strongly opposed to a second referendum. Seen as akin to cheating at sport and an establishment attempt at a stitch-up. I think the sporting analogy is important - it may seem irrational but I can see where it comes from. 5. Angry at Labour positioning. 6. Can't stand Corbyn. 7. Would leave happily without a deal.
The key thing for me is that any blame for events would be allocated across a number of actors. How it would translate into a GE vote I've no idea but Labour under Corbyn can be ruled out.
I know it is a single anecdote but for one thing it reflects May's relatively good standing in polls outside the world of the politically committed and engaged who frequent this forum.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
The bigger problem would be a leave/remain/whatever referendum where the electorate defied the bien pensants/MPs and voted for leave. I can see nothing good from that.
If we had a Deal/Remain referendum and people voted Leave we'd be in a much better position than now because there would be a clear mandate for the next step. It would also allow parliamentary democracy to start functioning again properly.
I'd go further and say a two stage Deal / No Deal / Remain referendum with the option polling lowest first time dropping out would be fair.
MPs will not vote for No Deal being on the referedum options though because of the catastrophic effects of No Deal on the country, as mentioned by numerous other posters.
So as I will start to ask anyone suggesting No Deal - what exactly do you mean by No Deal?
For a starter should we impose tariffs or should we not impose tariffs and what is the consequences in both the short medium and long term of both options.
Equally how would British farmers fare with No Deal?
It's a fair point. I retract my previous suggestion, it just needs to be Deal versus Remain.
A referendum would pit both sides against each other and it would be nasty and last for about 2 months. Two months of mud slinging about useless lying MPs.
The only reason that MPs want this is because they do not have the moral courage to revoke. If they revoke they could then stand on the stump, put their case forward and then the voters could either support them or vent their anger at them, but most importantly, do it at the ballot box.
I fear your 'two months' is optimistic - I think the Electoral Commission said 22 weeks would be required (though for the life of me I cannot see why it needs to be any more than 4 weeks).
It was longer than 22 weeks but I will need to hunt posts from early December to get the actual time frame. From memory though 22 is the absolute minimum it was nearer a year...
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
The bigger problem would be a leave/remain/whatever referendum where the electorate defied the bien pensants/MPs and voted for leave. I can see nothing good from that.
If we had a Deal/Remain referendum and people voted Leave we'd be in a much better position than now because there would be a clear mandate for the next step. It would also allow parliamentary democracy to start functioning again properly.
I'd go further and say a two stage Deal / No Deal / Remain referendum with the option polling lowest first time dropping out would be fair.
MPs will not vote for No Deal being on the referedum options though because of the catastrophic effects of No Deal on the country, as mentioned by numerous other posters.
So as I will start to ask anyone suggesting No Deal - what exactly do you mean by No Deal?
For a starter should we impose tariffs or should we not impose tariffs and what is the consequences in both the short medium and long term of both options.
Equally how would British farmers fare with No Deal?
And what does "remain" mean - does it mean no more EU laws or treaties without referendums - if no deal is a temporary status then so is remain.
My best friend, his wife and daughter are in the US to watch the SpaceX Falcon Heavy launch tomorrow. They've managed to get some really good viewing tickets.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Nope, Labour have been voting down every version of brexit offered. They are going to get as much of the blame for this as the Tories.
I doubt it. When you’re in power the buck stops with you. Of course party loyalists tend to blame everyone else.
'We're going to negotiate a deal and then put it to the people in a confirmatory vote - as previously suggested by my honourable and right-honourable colleagues Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Davis, John Redwood and Boris Johnson among others'.
And she should have set up an all-party commission with representatives of remain and leave in the proportions 48-52 to decide on a negotiating mandate before triggering A50.
Much vilified but Donald Tusk continues to remain a good friend of the UK.
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
Agreed. He has impressed me. A much better representative of the EU than Juncker. Barnier has also been impressive.
'We're going to negotiate a deal and then put it to the people in a confirmatory vote - as previously suggested by my honourable and right-honourable colleagues Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Davis, John Redwood and Boris Johnson among others'.
And she should have set up an all-party commission with representatives of remain and leave in the proportions 48-52 to decide on a negotiating mandate before triggering A50.
David Cameron's arrogance has unleashed a dirty, horrible side of British politics. Those with traditionally European liberal values shouldn't give into violence and intimidation and those here frothing about the idea of it should tread carefully, I don't think you appreciate how dangerous this is.
I am a Remainer with a mildly Brexit-friendly family. I have never seen any of them as angry, politically, as they are now. They're not the sort to resort to violence, but I can see them abstaining at all future elections. And there must be millions of Brexiters even angrier, and less restrained.
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
And if the result is 48/52 to remain this time, and Parliament says job done, let's stay - how angry do you think your family will be then?
Angry, but resigned, I think. And they would still have some enduring sense that we are democratic. Revocation would take us down a much darker path.
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
The bigger problem would be a leave/remain/whatever referendum where the electorate defied the bien pensants/MPs and voted for leave. I can see nothing good from that.
If we had a Deal/Remain referendum and people voted Leave we'd be in a much better position than now because there would be a clear mandate for the next step. It would also allow parliamentary democracy to start functioning again properly.
I'd go further and say a two stage Deal / No Deal / Remain referendum with the option polling lowest first time dropping out would be fair.
MPs will not vote for No Deal being on the referedum options though because of the catastrophic effects of No Deal on the country, as mentioned by numerous other posters.
So as I will start to ask anyone suggesting No Deal - what exactly do you mean by No Deal?
For a starter should we impose tariffs or should we not impose tariffs and what is the consequences in both the short medium and long term of both options.
Equally how would British farmers fare with No Deal?
And what does "remain" mean - does it mean no more EU laws or treaties without referendums - if no deal is a temporary status then so is remain.
People I know have said the most horrendous things about politicians and Brexit, people who aren't that politically engaged, that I couldn't repeat it on here as it would be a hate crime. I think the notion that Leave voters are apathetic is extremely wide of the mark.
I'm sure there are wards where canvassing for the Conservatives is pretty grim right now. But, I certainly would not want to be canvassing for Labour in a place like Pontefract, or Wakfield.
Don't be silly - any Labour canvassers can rightly say 'this is the bloody shambles you get with a Tory government'.
Nope, Labour have been voting down every version of brexit offered. They are going to get as much of the blame for this as the Tories.
Much vilified but Donald Tusk continues to remain a good friend of the UK.
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
Agreed. He has impressed me. A much better representative of the EU than Juncker. Barnier has also been impressive.
+1. Juncker probably added a few percentage points to the leave vote in the referendum!
Comments
Given that, you are asking them to be unprincipled and facilitate what they see as a disaster for the country. Your argument is essentially that the referendum result obliges them to do so, trumping their own principled stance. But that argument is wrong, because there cannot possibly be a coherent case made that the referendum result was a vote for a chaotic crash-out. How do I know this? Because every single senior member of both the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, without exception, told us that there would be a smooth transition and an amicable deal with the EU which would avoid any disruption at ports or disruption to manufacturing supply chains. So those MPs you despise for blocking a no-deal crash out are not contradicting the referendum result, they are supporting it.
(assuming that extra X is a typo....)
I suggest we define REMAIN to be Change + LDs and LEAVE to be Brexit + Ukip. England only since the other nations are laws unto themselves and almost impossible to understand.
Then if it's a clear win for one or the other that's it, game over, The People Have Spoken.
Just like in 2016.
Instead it's going to destroy it (and unless they are careful the union as well).
His letter once again stressing the need to show the UK the highest respect . As opposed to the disgraceful actions of some UK politicians who continue to attack the EU as an enemy .
Of course, those MPs (such as most of the Labour Party) who are not acting honourably and who voted down the deal for party-political reasons are another matter,
What I am saying is that having a referendum where the options are Remain or one version of Leave disenfranchises voters who want to leave but don't like that version. The other versions aren't simply No Deal.
"For all we know, a large proportion of the votes that got Leave over the line were from people who wanted to leave with No Deal, why should they be disenfranchised because MPs changed the rules after the vote?"
My comment was that you can equally argue that it was those after the softest possible outcome who got leave over the line...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Italian_general_election
His past life experience very much effects his view .
What will this anger do to us?
Perhaps a 2nd referendum, painful as it would be, is the only way out. Let the anger be channelled, vented, heard - and exhausted.
But rcs1000 and ilk are also right to say that it MUST be included for any referendum to have democratic legitimacy. The May Deal vs Remain would be impossible to take seriously.
So there we go. Unless we can come up with a kind of quantum mechanical referendum that both has and does not have No Deal on the ballot paper the idea is doomed.
It is also true to say that a significant proportion of the electorate are indeed in favour of a chaotic crash-out.
I do think there is still an argument for including No Deal is a referendum, that it might be publicly defeated. It would, of course, be a strategy not without risk, and is therefore unlikely to be adopted by our rather craven Parliament.
Norman Tebbit"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/09/irrationality-now-pervades-aspects-politics/
Revoke stating that with my deal we cannot sanely leave the EU. Then have ???? to determine what happens next.
???? is because I haven't a clue how it would play out - a referendum causes problems, a general election causes a different set of problems...
I don't have a perfect answer because there isn't one. Sorry. We are left with a handful of horrible and unpalatable alternatives.
Bloody David Cameron. I wonder if he is still whistling.
Perhaps I need to revisit my view that DEAL v REMAIN is a nonsense of a referendum.
In fact no perhaps about it - I do.
Doing that now and will not comment again until properly processed.
It iis very much a plague on both your houses
'We're going to negotiate a deal and then put it to the people in a confirmatory vote - as previously suggested by my honourable and right-honourable colleagues Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Davis, John Redwood and Boris Johnson among others'.
But the Tories have to own this shambles. Their 'coalition of chaos' and 'strong and stable' slogans are going to haunt them.
The only reason that MPs want this is because they do not have the moral courage to revoke. If they revoke they could then stand on the stump, put their case forward and then the voters could either support them or vent their anger at them, but most importantly, do it at the ballot box.
I could stomach our MPs saying "we believe leaving is absolutely terrible for the country, therefore we are going to revoke article 50 - judge us at the next general election". It's fair, in the sense that our MPs are representatives, not delegates, and the referendum was advisory. And we take what happens next from the next general election, when we throw as many of this lot out on their ear as we can.
If on the other hand there's a second referendum with a narrow remain result, I will have nothing but contempt for it. It reeks of a stitch up, of unfairness. Why only respect the result of a referendum when your side wins? I won't vote again, except for a pox-on-all-your-houses party.
There are no easy answers, perhaps your nearest and dearest would be content with a second referendum. But there are still an awful lot of people who will feel cheated if the result of a second referendum was respected when the result of the first was so clearly not, and they will remain... hopping mad.
I doubt if Lewis Goodall is making it all up.
MPs will not vote for No Deal being on the referedum options though because of the catastrophic effects of No Deal on the country, as mentioned by numerous other posters.
Let the people find out the deal is only the end of the beginning.
For a starter should we impose tariffs or should we not impose tariffs and what is the consequences in both the short medium and long term of both options.
Equally how would British farmers fare with No Deal?
...in case anyone's interested and wants a short Brexit break
Live blog (English):
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-april-9-2019/
TV stations (Hebrew):
http://10tv.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1055909
https://wwitv.com/tv_channels/b6996-KAN-11-TV-Israel.htm
Polls close 8pm UK time.
Thanks
DC
May's Deal.
To summarise:
1. May trying hard under difficult circumstances and her deal would be ok.
2. MPs as a whole are an utter disgrace.
3. Would be very angry if we don't leave.
4. Strongly opposed to a second referendum. Seen as akin to cheating at sport and an establishment attempt at a stitch-up. I think the sporting analogy is important - it may seem irrational but I can see where it comes from.
5. Angry at Labour positioning.
6. Can't stand Corbyn.
7. Would leave happily without a deal.
The key thing for me is that any blame for events would be allocated across a number of actors. How it would translate into a GE vote I've no idea but Labour under Corbyn can be ruled out.
I know it is a single anecdote but for one thing it reflects May's relatively good standing in polls outside the world of the politically committed and engaged who frequent this forum.
My best friend, his wife and daughter are in the US to watch the SpaceX Falcon Heavy launch tomorrow. They've managed to get some really good viewing tickets.
They're not even into space.
Lucky gits.