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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Cooper-Letwin, forcing Article 50 to be delayed, is enacted an

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:


    UK likely to be offered Brexit extension until end of year

    Barnier implored EU ministers meeting in Luxembourg to keep the pressure on MPs to back the deal by supporting May’s request for a Brexit delay only up until 30 June, a leaked diplomatic note of the debate reveals.

    But, according to the note seen by the Guardian, there is instead growing support for the idea of a lengthy extension, with around nine months looking likely. None of the EU27 ruled out such a delay, instead insisting on a “mechanism” to keep check on the British government’s behaviour.

    Gives just enough time to get rid of May, get a Brexiteer Con leader, hold a general election to elect a new Parliament and then leave on NYE! :D
    The Tories really should get rid of May. How can Labour deal with them when they know she'll be succeeded immediately ?
    Well for one it's not really in their interests to reach a deal so it hardly matters, but they could try to insist on measures to make it legally and politically hard for a successor to renege even if you cannot prevent it. Plus theres a good chance of a GE once a deal is done so they dont have to worry.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Telegraph caught lying about People's Vote march attendance numbers https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/4064

    (This is the October March, by the way, not the recent one)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Debenham's creditors have taken possession of the business:

    Debenhams falls into hands of lenders
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47864580

    Its 2019s Woolies
    Sadly true. But then, much retail is 2019 Woolies.....
    Indeed. It's all online now. And all mechanized etc. We will need universal income within the decade, we are entering the post work world. City centres will revert to primarily residential
    I passed a Woolworths yesterday , they have survived in the EU. Says it all really.
    B&M and Wilcos have since grown massively and are basically Woolies, minus trying to flog stuff like CDs / DVDs / Books (which was killing Woolies).
    B&M is like a Tesco, but with the food/non-food balance reversed and all the joy sucked out. I'm amazed they're still in business.
    For household goods they are significantly cheaper than supermarkets , for same products.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Debenham's creditors have taken possession of the business:

    Debenhams falls into hands of lenders
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47864580

    Its 2019s Woolies
    Sadly true. But then, much retail is 2019 Woolies.....
    Indeed. It's all online now. And all mechanized etc. We will need universal income within the decade, we are entering the post work world. City centres will revert to primarily residential
    I passed a Woolworths yesterday , they have survived in the EU. Says it all really.
    B&M and Wilcos have since grown massively and are basically Woolies, minus trying to flog stuff like CDs / DVDs / Books (which was killing Woolies).
    B&M is like a Tesco, but with the food/non-food balance reversed and all the joy sucked out. I'm amazed they're still in business.
    There's joy in a Tesco?
    One of the cashiers in Colchester.
    Who is the English John Spillane?

    The Dunnes Stores Girl https://g.co/kgs/bdMvnZ
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited April 2019
    kle4 said:

    An M and S foods opened recently and people are very excited though.

    People get excited by the smallest things...as Stormy Daniels famously said.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited April 2019
    OK so who can remember the process for invoking Article 50? MV? Simple majority?

    And of course can you do it twice?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:


    UK likely to be offered Brexit extension until end of year

    Barnier implored EU ministers meeting in Luxembourg to keep the pressure on MPs to back the deal by supporting May’s request for a Brexit delay only up until 30 June, a leaked diplomatic note of the debate reveals.

    But, according to the note seen by the Guardian, there is instead growing support for the idea of a lengthy extension, with around nine months looking likely. None of the EU27 ruled out such a delay, instead insisting on a “mechanism” to keep check on the British government’s behaviour.

    Gives just enough time to get rid of May, get a Brexiteer Con leader, hold a general election to elect a new Parliament and then leave on NYE! :D
    The Tories really should get rid of May. How can Labour deal with them when they know she'll be succeeded immediately ?
    True, but the Tories are hardly likely to unite behind a new leader. A leadership contest would be very divisive and could well end with some MPs resigning the whip. The Brexiteer wing will never agree to any form of deal with Labour under any leader.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Some in the EU may think "No change there, then."
  • Here and now such an idea seems longer than 25/1. But as day after day ticks by and we have literally nothing at all new to offer the EU plus a new law forbidding no deal, what options will May have if the EU summit regrettably restates their position of a few weeks ago?
    TM will not revoke before she concedes a referendum
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    An M and S foods opened recently and people are very excited though.

    People get excited by the smallest things...as Stormy Daniels famously said.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dceyy0cX6J4
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Have to say I'm still not sure what the point of Cooper-Letwin was or is. Given May has said she will not accept No Deal, placing the fact she won't in law seems pointless in extremis.

    Were we dealing with a PM actively seeking No Deal, I'd get it but May has never been that PM so I don't see why parliament has needed to do what it has done. In any case, the power to grant an extension isn't the UK's in isolation but rests with the EU. IF the EU refuse an extension, May cannot move to No Deal because she is legally unable so to do so she would be forced to revoke with all the political consequences that would flow.

    On a completely unrelated, one of the biggest issues in the country is housing and this doesn't help:

    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/property-guardian-company-prosecuted-over-former-care-home-where-more-than-30-guardians-lived-with-one-kitchen/

    Through schemes like this and the ruthless exploitation by landlords and others of (very often) migrant workers, we have created new slums with more than 20 people living in two or three bedroom semis. On a wider level, this also shames capitalism and the economic model. The exploitation and degradation of individuals in the name of profit shames our society - we must rigorously pursue the individuals responsible and bring them to book but it also forces us to ask questions whether the profit motive and "making money" is as important as it seems to so many.

    I worked out a long time it's better to work to live than to live to work.

    That is the Tory way, exploit the poor , low wages and they mop up all the benefits etc as they buy up the housing, utilise the cheap labour.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    He will get distracted by something else after the next segment on Fox News in about 15 mins.
  • Scott_P said:
    These conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    And they cannot control the behaviour of any of the elected MEPs throughout Europe without running into the ECJ deeming them unlawful
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Scott_P said:
    Hang on, if we can derail all their federal projects as a member state, why do we need to leave in the first place?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    The chemical substances he imbibes are no concern of ours.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    stodge said:

    Given May has said she will not accept No Deal, placing the fact she won't in law seems pointless in extremis.

    I wouldn't trust May if she gave me her word the sun would rise tomorrow.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Have to say I'm still not sure what the point of Cooper-Letwin was or is. Given May has said she will not accept No Deal, placing the fact she won't in law seems pointless in extremis.

    Were we dealing with a PM actively seeking No Deal, I'd get it but May has never been that PM so I don't see why parliament has needed to do what it has done. In any case, the power to grant an extension isn't the UK's in isolation but rests with the EU. IF the EU refuse an extension, May cannot move to No Deal because she is legally unable so to do so she would be forced to revoke with all the political consequences that would flow.

    On a completely unrelated, one of the biggest issues in the country is housing and this doesn't help:

    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/property-guardian-company-prosecuted-over-former-care-home-where-more-than-30-guardians-lived-with-one-kitchen/

    Through schemes like this and the ruthless exploitation by landlords and others of (very often) migrant workers, we have created new slums with more than 20 people living in two or three bedroom semis. On a wider level, this also shames capitalism and the economic model. The exploitation and degradation of individuals in the name of profit shames our society - we must rigorously pursue the individuals responsible and bring them to book but it also forces us to ask questions whether the profit motive and "making money" is as important as it seems to so many.

    I worked out a long time it's better to work to live than to live to work.

    Seen this?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If only we could have avoided being beholden to their whim somehow.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Donald Vs Juncker!!! :D
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Scott_P said:
    Hang on, if we can derail all their federal projects as a member state, why do we need to leave in the first place?
    Because it's the Will Of The People™
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    He's got things a bit backwards. We're the ones asking to be kept in.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:


    UK likely to be offered Brexit extension until end of year

    Barnier implored EU ministers meeting in Luxembourg to keep the pressure on MPs to back the deal by supporting May’s request for a Brexit delay only up until 30 June, a leaked diplomatic note of the debate reveals.

    But, according to the note seen by the Guardian, there is instead growing support for the idea of a lengthy extension, with around nine months looking likely. None of the EU27 ruled out such a delay, instead insisting on a “mechanism” to keep check on the British government’s behaviour.

    Gives just enough time to get rid of May, get a Brexiteer Con leader, hold a general election to elect a new Parliament and then leave on NYE! :D
    The Tories really should get rid of May. How can Labour deal with them when they know she'll be succeeded immediately ?
    The one clever thing she did was to promise to go when we Brexit.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:


    UK likely to be offered Brexit extension until end of year

    Barnier implored EU ministers meeting in Luxembourg to keep the pressure on MPs to back the deal by supporting May’s request for a Brexit delay only up until 30 June, a leaked diplomatic note of the debate reveals.

    But, according to the note seen by the Guardian, there is instead growing support for the idea of a lengthy extension, with around nine months looking likely. None of the EU27 ruled out such a delay, instead insisting on a “mechanism” to keep check on the British government’s behaviour.

    Gives just enough time to get rid of May, get a Brexiteer Con leader, hold a general election to elect a new Parliament and then leave on NYE! :D
    The Tories really should get rid of May. How can Labour deal with them when they know she'll be succeeded immediately ?
    The one clever thing she did was to promise to go when we Brexit.
    How was that clever? It didn't win over any ERGers and gave Labour a good reason not to deal with her
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,007
    I have to tell you now that no red carpet welcome was received, and that
    consequently this country is at war with Germany.

    https://twitter.com/jennyhillBBC/status/1115575478264397824
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    Probably the most humiliating imposition on the UK since the Treaty of Paris in 1783.

    Hard to think of another occasion on which the UK has had to submit so publicly to foreign supervision.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    stodge said:

    Have to say I'm still not sure what the point of Cooper-Letwin was or is. Given May has said she will not accept No Deal, placing the fact she won't in law seems pointless in extremis.

    One of the points is that backbenchers do not trust May. Another is that she may not be PM much longer. Also, May is under pressure from the No Dealers in her party, so devices such as this Act are a way to push back against them by proxy.

    Most of all, the Act creates today's debate, which allows MPs to amend the government's motion and specify the length of the extension to require, and potentially what we would do with the time to win the agreement of the EU to the extension.

    On housing, my step-mother was talking yesterday about people sleeping in white vans, parked in a different London residential street each night to more easily evade detection than with a bed in a shed. Have you heard about that?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Scott_P said:
    Hang on, if we can derail all their federal projects as a member state, why do we need to leave in the first place?
    LOL
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902
    isam said:
    Thanks - the use of Property Guardians is emerging as one of the real scandals of our time. The theory of providing cheap accommodation for key workers has been around for years and being able to quickly convert office blocks and unused public buildings into effectively dormitories for NHS workers to live nearer where they work isn't without merit but as always Government has simply allowed the private sector the latitude - insufficient regulation has as we always see led to exploitation.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Because it's the Will Of The People™

    On Politics Live today, it was pointed out that those who fetishize the Will Of The People™ are the ones who are shit scared of asking the people what their will might be now...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    He will get distracted by something else after the next segment on Fox News in about 15 mins.
    No he won't. The chinese trade war is no longer making news in the USA so on to the next newsworthy one...
  • Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    It is a pipe dream by panicked EU states
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I have to tell you now that no red carpet welcome was received, and that
    consequently this country is at war with Germany.

    Could she not have had a coffee in cafe with the same bloke Nicola met?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
    Not possible
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    Scott_P said:

    Because it's the Will Of The People™

    On Politics Live today, it was pointed out that those who fetishize the Will Of The People™ are the ones who are shit scared of asking the people what their will might be now...
    Or those who would have never have thought they would find themselves on the side of the argument in which they wanted to overrule a democratic referendum decision. Brexit has rotted many a brain.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Scott_P said:
    Hang on, if we can derail all their federal projects as a member state, why do we need to leave in the first place?
    The argument was that the British people can’t be trusted not to want to get involved with their federal projects, so we need to leave to remove the temptation.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244
    They do not want British MEPs. We do not want British MEPs. So I imagine a way will be found that results in no British MEPs. Not sure how though - other than the obvious of passing the WA.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Isn't the idea that the extension will be "checkpointed", with opportunities for it to be shortened if we didn't meet the conditions? Beyond that there wouldn't be any further enforcement of the conditions
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    I have to tell you now that no red carpet welcome was received, and that
    consequently this country is at war with Germany.

    https://twitter.com/jennyhillBBC/status/1115575478264397824

    Oh god no that is making me feel sorry for May.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    GIN1138 said:

    Donald Vs Juncker!!! :D
    More like Donald vs Timmermans who is now in to 8/1 now he is the centre-left's Spitzenkandidat. He is great value at that price (and has come in from 25/1) as he has more foreign policy experience than Weber and is authentically Russophobic (having been a Dutch spook).

  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    stodge said:

    isam said:
    Thanks - the use of Property Guardians is emerging as one of the real scandals of our time. The theory of providing cheap accommodation for key workers has been around for years and being able to quickly convert office blocks and unused public buildings into effectively dormitories for NHS workers to live nearer where they work isn't without merit but as always Government has simply allowed the private sector the latitude - insufficient regulation has as we always see led to exploitation.

    "Ms Smith is one of hundreds of residents placed at Terminus House" you mean she's in emergency/temporary accommodation. What does she expect, a penthouse suite? Some people FFS.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
    Not possible
    Not saying you're wrong but why not?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    kle4 said:

    He's got things a bit backwards. We're the ones asking to be kept in.
    And, he's the one who's keeping us in.

    He still hasn't worked out that voting against Brexit means that you don't get Brexit.

    I rather liked the suggestion here that someone needs to publish a picture book about Brexit for people like Francois - "Now, what does Barney the Brexit Dog say?"
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,146
    edited April 2019
    kinabalu said:

    They do not want British MEPs. We do not want British MEPs. So I imagine a way will be found that results in no British MEPs. Not sure how though - other than the obvious of passing the WA.

    Already ruled out by the ECJ. You are either a member will full rights or you are a third country

    In the absence of the WDA and with an extended A50 we are a full member

    Otherwise the new EU Parliament will not be able to legally pass laws or function
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.

    Once an MEP (or MP) is elected, there's no such thing as a 'good behaviour' clause.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:
    Oh god! That's not "Two Brians - No Sense" Willets AND Matt Hancock in the same room together is it????

    #Disaster

    :D
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Scott_P said:
    They are now the Brexit party who can't deliver Brexit. So even worse than he thinks.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Scott_P said:
    When was the last time we heard anything from the Tories about setting up some sort of policy development groups? 10 years ago?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,007
    Scott_P said:

    I have to tell you now that no red carpet welcome was received, and that
    consequently this country is at war with Germany.

    Could she not have had a coffee in cafe with the same bloke Nicola met?
    At least we can be sure which one had more utility.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh god! That's not "Two Brians - No Sense" Willets AND Matt Hancock in the same room together is it????

    #Disaster

    :D
    We used to call "Two Brains" "Two Backsides."
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703
    TOPPING said:

    OK so who can remember the process for invoking Article 50? MV? Simple majority?

    And of course can you do it twice?

    Debatable whether it needs a HoC vote, though it would be advisable of course. May was given the power to invoke A50 IIRC, nothing to say she had to, and nothing to prevent her from issuing an executive order to do so imo.

    As I say, it would be advisable to get a HoC vote so she will no doubt do that... Oh :disappointed:
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    That's actually a pretty reasonable strategy, except they've forgotten the "leave the European Union" bit. Odd, considering.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Isn't the idea that the extension will be "checkpointed", with opportunities for it to be shortened if we didn't meet the conditions? Beyond that there wouldn't be any further enforcement of the conditions
    As far as I gather it, the new idea evolving since last night is for enforcement of conditions too. All a bit vague so far though, apparently.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh god! That's not "Two Brians - No Sense" Willets AND Matt Hancock in the same room together is it????

    #Disaster

    :D
    We used to call "Two Brains" "Two Backsides."
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1115584377642201091
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The odious ERG seem a bit delusional . A bunch of MPs can’t interfere with EU decision making . This is desperate stuff from the moron Francois and the rest of the Brexit Death Cult .
  • Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
    Not possible
    Not saying you're wrong but why not?
    It would require a treaty to be legally binding agreed by all 27 and enforceable by the ECJ
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh god! That's not "Two Brians - No Sense" Willets AND Matt Hancock in the same room together is it????

    #Disaster

    :D
    Willetts has probably done more for poisoning the Tories well with younger voters than anyone else.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703
    So, extend to 31 Dec 2019, which gives time for a PV, GE, or both.

    I hope the Electoral Commission have got working on the PV2 logistics already!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    notme2 said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:
    Thanks - the use of Property Guardians is emerging as one of the real scandals of our time. The theory of providing cheap accommodation for key workers has been around for years and being able to quickly convert office blocks and unused public buildings into effectively dormitories for NHS workers to live nearer where they work isn't without merit but as always Government has simply allowed the private sector the latitude - insufficient regulation has as we always see led to exploitation.

    "Ms Smith is one of hundreds of residents placed at Terminus House" you mean she's in emergency/temporary accommodation. What does she expect, a penthouse suite? Some people FFS.
    She's been there fore a year...

    Presumably there are a shortage of places available.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
    Not possible
    Not saying you're wrong but why not?
    It would require a treaty to be legally binding agreed by all 27 and enforceable by the ECJ
    Why do you need the agreement of 27 countries for the British to make a promise?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    kinabalu said:

    They do not want British MEPs. We do not want British MEPs. So I imagine a way will be found that results in no British MEPs. Not sure how though - other than the obvious of passing the WA.

    Already ruled out by the ECJ. You are either a member will full rights or you are a third country

    In the absence of the WDA and with an extended A50 we are a full member

    Otherwise the new EU Parliament will not be able to legally pass laws or function
    And the legal steps to start the election campaign have already been taken so unless the WA is agreed in the very near future (rather a small possibility I think) we are going to elect MEPs on 23rd May.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    That's actually a pretty reasonable strategy, except they've forgotten the "leave the European Union" bit. Odd, considering.
    If we leave then these whackos will not be able to shout 'Betrayal' and 'Brexit means Brexit' whilst clinging, sobbing, to a union jack flag, for the rest of their lives, so obviously they have left it out.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited April 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Yup, just as I thought. The conditions are everything now, and the ERG are relishing their child-throwing-balloons disruption powers as usual.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Scott_P said:
    They are now the Brexit party who can't deliver Brexit. So even worse than he thinks.
    Yep
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh god! That's not "Two Brians - No Sense" Willets AND Matt Hancock in the same room together is it????

    #Disaster

    :D
    Willetts has probably done more for poisoning the Tories well with younger voters than anyone else.
    "I'm David Willetts and I'm here to help you" are words that will strike fear into the heart of any Conservative activist.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    kinabalu said:

    They do not want British MEPs. We do not want British MEPs. So I imagine a way will be found that results in no British MEPs. Not sure how though - other than the obvious of passing the WA.

    Already ruled out by the ECJ. You are either a member will full rights or you are a third country

    In the absence of the WDA and with an extended A50 we are a full member

    Otherwise the new EU Parliament will not be able to legally pass laws or function
    And the legal steps to start the election campaign have already been taken so unless the WA is agreed in the very near future (rather a small possibility I think) we are going to elect MEPs on 23rd May.
    Most of whom will be Brexit Party.

    Nice work Conservatives. There was a time when the party was something to do with maintaining and conserving stuff, rather than just smashing the country to pieces.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,168
    Which on current polls leads to a Corbyn minority government and BINO or EUref2 anyway
  • TOPPING said:

    OK so who can remember the process for invoking Article 50? MV? Simple majority?

    And of course can you do it twice?

    Debatable whether it needs a HoC vote, though it would be advisable of course. May was given the power to invoke A50 IIRC, nothing to say she had to, and nothing to prevent her from issuing an executive order to do so imo.

    As I say, it would be advisable to get a HoC vote so she will no doubt do that... Oh :disappointed:
    It has to comply with UK constitutional requirements but even talking about TM revoking is in another world
  • nico67 said:

    The odious ERG seem a bit delusional . A bunch of MPs can’t interfere with EU decision making . This is desperate stuff from the moron Francois and the rest of the Brexit Death Cult .

    It is pathetic nonsense and embarrasses our nation.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    notme2 said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:
    Thanks - the use of Property Guardians is emerging as one of the real scandals of our time. The theory of providing cheap accommodation for key workers has been around for years and being able to quickly convert office blocks and unused public buildings into effectively dormitories for NHS workers to live nearer where they work isn't without merit but as always Government has simply allowed the private sector the latitude - insufficient regulation has as we always see led to exploitation.

    "Ms Smith is one of hundreds of residents placed at Terminus House" you mean she's in emergency/temporary accommodation. What does she expect, a penthouse suite? Some people FFS.
    She's been there fore a year...

    Presumably there are a shortage of places available.

    Presumably she needs to get a grip of her own destiny and leave. People are not spectators in their own lives. Learned helplessness behaviour. Much of which has now been shaken out of the system.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
    Not possible
    Not saying you're wrong but why not?
    It would require a treaty to be legally binding agreed by all 27 and enforceable by the ECJ
    Why do you need the agreement of 27 countries for the British to make a promise?
    EU treaties require unanimity, I believe.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,135

    Scott_P said:
    These conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    And they cannot control the behaviour of any of the elected MEPs throughout Europe without running into the ECJ deeming them unlawful
    The fact that you are now citing the authority of the ECJ (an European court) to preserve the rights of British MEPs sitting in the 2019-2024 European Parliament, shows how deeply weird this situation has become... :(
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Be careful

    Wouldn’t May announce her resignation but stay in place until a successor appointed? Is that “immediate”?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,168

    kinabalu said:

    They do not want British MEPs. We do not want British MEPs. So I imagine a way will be found that results in no British MEPs. Not sure how though - other than the obvious of passing the WA.

    Already ruled out by the ECJ. You are either a member will full rights or you are a third country

    In the absence of the WDA and with an extended A50 we are a full member

    Otherwise the new EU Parliament will not be able to legally pass laws or function
    And the legal steps to start the election campaign have already been taken so unless the WA is agreed in the very near future (rather a small possibility I think) we are going to elect MEPs on 23rd May.
    Predict the lowest turnout in a UKwide election ever?

    Who is going to bother to turn out to vote for MEPs in vast regions like the South East and North West with little local connection and the country having already voted to Leave the EU anyway other than diehard Remainers for TIG and diehard Leavers for the Brexit Party to make a point
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited April 2019

    EU treaties require unanimity, I believe.

    Sure but I don't see why you'd need an EU treaty for the British to say, "We promise to abstain at the Council of Ministers". You'd need one if you wanted to change the EU rules to ignore their vote if they tried to cast it, but why can't they just promise not to cast it?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    They do not want British MEPs. We do not want British MEPs. So I imagine a way will be found that results in no British MEPs. Not sure how though - other than the obvious of passing the WA.

    Already ruled out by the ECJ. You are either a member will full rights or you are a third country

    In the absence of the WDA and with an extended A50 we are a full member

    Otherwise the new EU Parliament will not be able to legally pass laws or function
    And the legal steps to start the election campaign have already been taken so unless the WA is agreed in the very near future (rather a small possibility I think) we are going to elect MEPs on 23rd May.
    Predict the lowest turnout in a UKwide election ever?

    Who is going to bother to turn out to vote for MEPs in vast regions like the South East and North West with little local connection and the country having already voted to Leave the EU anyway other than diehard Remainers for TIG and diehard Leavers for the Brexit Party to make a point
    I predict it will be the highest turnout in any European election we’ve had.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Anti incumbency penalty at the next GE. Penalty growing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rpjs said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Debenham's creditors have taken possession of the business:

    Debenhams falls into hands of lenders
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47864580

    Its 2019s Woolies
    Sadly true. But then, much retail is 2019 Woolies.....
    Indeed. It's all online now. And all mechanized etc. We will need universal income within the decade, we are entering the post work world. City centres will revert to primarily residential
    I passed a Woolworths yesterday , they have survived in the EU. Says it all really.
    They still have c&a too, my employers when I was a sixth former.
    “Coats and ‘Ats” is a Dutch company I believe. Woolies is still going strong in Oz and South Africa as well, but its overseas branches were long ago sold off separately by the US parent which itself failed about two decades ago.
    Trivia factoid of the day:

    Woolies paid for the incomparably lovely Winfield House in Regents Park
  • Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
    Not possible
    Not saying you're wrong but why not?
    It would require a treaty to be legally binding agreed by all 27 and enforceable by the ECJ
    Why do you need the agreement of 27 countries for the British to make a promise?
    A promise has to be legally binding through a treaty
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    TOPPING said:

    I have to tell you now that no red carpet welcome was received, and that
    consequently this country is at war with Germany.

    https://twitter.com/jennyhillBBC/status/1115575478264397824

    Oh god no that is making me feel sorry for May.
    Good conversation about the weather. Us germanics....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,168
    Charles said:

    Be careful

    Wouldn’t May announce her resignation but stay in place until a successor appointed? Is that “immediate”?
    She might like being PM for a bit with all the perks like Chequers and no more Brexit worries while the Tories decide which red meat Brexiteer they choose to succeed her and disown her and the Cabinet
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    TOPPING said:

    OK so who can remember the process for invoking Article 50? MV? Simple majority?

    And of course can you do it twice?

    Debatable whether it needs a HoC vote, though it would be advisable of course. May was given the power to invoke A50 IIRC, nothing to say she had to, and nothing to prevent her from issuing an executive order to do so imo.

    As I say, it would be advisable to get a HoC vote so she will no doubt do that... Oh :disappointed:
    It has to comply with UK constitutional requirements but even talking about TM revoking is in another world
    Uhuh? That is written down where precisely?

    I really rate most of your posts Big_G but like all of us you fall foul of sometimes believing what you wish to be the case, is in fact the case. Your view on the impossibility of the HoC approving EU elections is an example (they didn't need to approve them).

    Still, I respect your opinion and accept you may be right on Revoke... I just don't think that legally you are (IMHO).
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    kinabalu said:

    They do not want British MEPs. We do not want British MEPs. So I imagine a way will be found that results in no British MEPs. Not sure how though - other than the obvious of passing the WA.

    Already ruled out by the ECJ. You are either a member will full rights or you are a third country

    In the absence of the WDA and with an extended A50 we are a full member

    Otherwise the new EU Parliament will not be able to legally pass laws or function
    And the legal steps to start the election campaign have already been taken so unless the WA is agreed in the very near future (rather a small possibility I think) we are going to elect MEPs on 23rd May.
    Most of whom will be Brexit Party.

    Nice work Conservatives. There was a time when the party was something to do with maintaining and conserving stuff, rather than just smashing the country to pieces.
    Does the Brexit party actually even legally exist yet. It seems to be a virtual party not an actual party promoted via Farage’s LBC phone in show?

    Given the EU elections are in barely six weeks doesn’t it need to get a move on?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    These "good behaviour" conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    If a country is a member, what is the legal basis for imposing conditions on how it exercises its membership rights?
    Presumably the country in question could make a legally-binding promise?
    Not possible
    Not saying you're wrong but why not?
    It would require a treaty to be legally binding agreed by all 27 and enforceable by the ECJ
    Why do you need the agreement of 27 countries for the British to make a promise?
    A promise has to be legally binding through a treaty
    Any treaty signed whilst we remain a member needs our signature too surely
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244

    Already ruled out by the ECJ. You are either a member will full rights or you are a third country

    In the absence of the WDA and with an extended A50 we are a full member

    Otherwise the new EU Parliament will not be able to legally pass laws or function

    Probably right.

    But we will see - necessity is the mother of invention.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:
    Thanks - the use of Property Guardians is emerging as one of the real scandals of our time. The theory of providing cheap accommodation for key workers has been around for years and being able to quickly convert office blocks and unused public buildings into effectively dormitories for NHS workers to live nearer where they work isn't without merit but as always Government has simply allowed the private sector the latitude - insufficient regulation has as we always see led to exploitation.

    "Ms Smith is one of hundreds of residents placed at Terminus House" you mean she's in emergency/temporary accommodation. What does she expect, a penthouse suite? Some people FFS.
    She's been there fore a year...

    Presumably there are a shortage of places available.

    Presumably she needs to get a grip of her own destiny and leave. People are not spectators in their own lives. Learned helplessness behaviour. Much of which has now been shaken out of the system.
    If you are opposed to the idea of the state housing people I think you should come out and say it.
  • viewcode said:

    Scott_P said:
    These conditions the EU are going to attach are going to become very politically important now.
    And they cannot control the behaviour of any of the elected MEPs throughout Europe without running into the ECJ deeming them unlawful
    The fact that you are now citing the authority of the ECJ (an European court) to preserve the rights of British MEPs sitting in the 2019-2024 European Parliament, shows how deeply weird this situation has become... :(
    Hasn't it just
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    EU treaties require unanimity, I believe.

    Sure but I don't see why you'd need an EU treaty for the British to say, "We promise to abstain at the Council of Ministers". You'd need one if you wanted to change the EU rules to ignore their vote if they tried to cast it, but why can't they just promise not to cast it?
    That promise couldn't and wouldn't tie the next government.
This discussion has been closed.