And this shows that everyone who was banking on the use of 'confirmatory referendum' to not possibly mean Remain would be the oucome if the deal failed was barking up the wrong tree. A referendum is to achieve Remain, nothing more, nothing less.
Of course it is.
Really we should have Camerons deal as well as Remain up against whatever Theremy come up with, why should only Leave have their options split?
If there is to be another referendum (and I don't think one will be helpful), then we need to ensure that whatever is voted on is deliverable: and that means the EU has to agree with them in advance.
In particular, I wonder of Cameron's deal is still on the table - and the same goes for any other options that are mentioned. May's deal and no deal are the only two cast-iron ones (the former having been agreed with them, and the latter not requiring a deal), with 'remain' probably being okay with the EU - although the conditions under which we remain would need to be made clear to the voters.
I think there has to be equal options for each side. So if "Mays Deal" and "No Deal" are Leave options "Remain on pre 2016 terms" and "Camerons renegotiation" could be Remain's
If the country were split exactly 50/50 Leave/Remain, and it were "Mays Deal" vs "Remain" on the ballot, that would be a huge advantage for Remain
Well fair play to him for being willing to stand up and defend the move, unlike certain others.
Has Cox, as one of the leading lawyers in the country, given an opinion on the corruption and criminality on the part of the Leave campaign, and the legitimacy of the Referendum? Or has he avoided this question?
Given MPs are able to make their decision on what to do irrespective of the actions of the past campaign, and many are, it hardly matters - squeaky clean or not if they want to remain, or referendum, they can and will. You've won, time to focus on how remain happens.
IDS today has said it is not right giving an extremist legitimacy i.e. Jeremy Corbyn by holding talks with him as it will end in disaster. I seem to remember IDS, when he was leader was given similar billing as an extremist yet Tony Blair invited IDS into discussions on the Iraq war.
It did not end well, when IDS got involved and helped to kill hundreds of thousands of people if not over a million!
IDS has extreme cruelty and indifference to the plight of his decisions on people. I am surprised he did not get a metal sign erected outside every job centre saying "Arbeit macht frei" when he was the DWP Sec. of State!
IDS is a nutter!
Not to defend him but IDS inherited the fitness to work scheme from Labour (although its convenient for them to forget that fact) Universal Credit was supposed to pay more than the current benefits but Osbourne put paid to that.
And this shows that everyone who was banking on the use of 'confirmatory referendum' to not possibly mean Remain would be the oucome if the deal failed was barking up the wrong tree. A referendum is to achieve Remain, nothing more, nothing less.
Of course it is.
Really we should have Camerons deal as well as Remain up against whatever Theremy come up with, why should only Leave have their options split?
If there is to be another referendum (and I don't think one will be helpful), then we need to ensure that whatever is voted on is deliverable: and that means the EU has to agree with them in advance.
In particular, I wonder of Cameron's deal is still on the table - and the same goes for any other options that are mentioned. May's deal and no deal are the only two cast-iron ones (the former having been agreed with them, and the latter not requiring a deal), with 'remain' probably being okay with the EU - although the conditions under which we remain would need to be made clear to the voters.
I think there has to be equal options for each side. So if "Mays Deal" and "No Deal" are Leave options "Remain on pre 2016 terms" and "Camerons renegotiation" could be Remain's
If the country were split exactly 50/50 Leave/Remain, and it were "Mays Deal" vs "Remain" on the ballot, that would be a huge advantage for Remain
I think you're missing my point: the only options that should be offered in a referendum are ones the EU are happy with, and therefore can be delivered. We should not offer them unicorn flatulence again.
What a twerp. He could be the most principled man in Parliament and he would not need to be so self satisfyingly pompous. 'Brexit Hardman' indeed. Fortunately, pomposity is not a leaver only trait.
Virtually all of the Uks avocados are imported from Mexico, the US and ISRAEL.
No impact from a hard brexit.
That's a shame as I hate avocados, and generally only eat the ghastly things to be polite.
Have you perhaps made the elementary mistake of believing supermarkets who claim their avocados are ripe and ready to eat?
I can honestly say I have never eaten any avocado I liked, whether at home, with friends, family, or in a restaurant. There are very few things I dislike eating, avocado is one of the few.
My mother once tried to smuggle two packets of biscuits into the United States, then unwisely tried to argue with the customs official when he confiscated them.
I suppose the important questions is...what type of biscuits? Some would be worth arguing for more than others!
They were Maryland cookies. She thought my sister-in-law’s Marylander family would find it cute.
I thought May wanted indicative votes on Monday in case she and Jez couldnt come up with something. or does she not want them controlled by backbenchers.
It was a big moment as the backbenchers cannot put forward their indicative votes including a referendum or revoke. The look on the faces of the TIGS and SNP said it all as they see their dreams disappear
SNP dreams alive and well G, referendum still on the cards
I know you hope for it Malc, but after all this chaos not sure your fellow Scots will want to go down that route again in the near future.
I assume given by-election wins, even in safer seats than Newport West, are always stated to show the opposition's way is what the country wants, it will be used as a further pretext why Labour cannot compromise on the demand for a referendum.
That seems a bit muddled, Mr Kle. A byelection win is usually presented as validation of the winning party`s stance, not that of the opposition (unless the opposition wins, of course).
The second problem is that nobody knows what Labour`s stance currently is. It changes from hour to hour, depending on who is speaking at the time. It is a moving target, and cannot be pinned down. Contrariwise, Labour can use any result to support its chosen policy as the famous will of the people, provided it redefines its policy quickly enough.
Virtually all of the Uks avocados are imported from Mexico, the US and ISRAEL.
No impact from a hard brexit.
That's a shame as I hate avocados, and generally only eat the ghastly things to be polite.
Have you perhaps made the elementary mistake of believing supermarkets who claim their avocados are ripe and ready to eat?
I can honestly say I have never eaten any avocado I liked, whether at home, with friends, family, or in a restaurant. There are very few things I dislike eating, avocado is one of the few.
My mother once tried to smuggle two packets of biscuits into the United States, then unwisely tried to argue with the customs official when he confiscated them.
I suppose the important questions is...what type of biscuits? Some would be worth arguing for more than others!
They were Maryland cookies. She thought my sister-in-law’s Marylander family would find it cute.
She should just have given them the dough.
That way, they could have bought them for themselves.
OT,but would appreciate help. My partner has been offered a job as Polling Station Inspector on route 22 Northumberland on May 2nd. Does anyone know how many polling stations this might involve, and how we find out what route 22 is? See, she doesn't drive....but no one bothered to ask that when she applied....
I wonder how long voter patience with the Tories will continue.... Surely there comes a time when we all go "Enough!" and their support simply collapses.
Making Corbyn look like PM material is tricky, but May seems to be managing it.
I think as a country we are all heartily sick of this daily diet of Conservative infantilism and bullshit. So if the Tories go for an election, perhaps that will clear the air and rule them out of office for a generation. Not, perhaps what Gove and Boris maybe are expecting, but hey-ho.
OT,but would appreciate help. My partner has been offered a job as Polling Station Inspector on route 22 Northumberland on May 2nd. Does anyone know how many polling stations this might involve, and how we find out what route 22 is? See, she doesn't drive....but no one bothered to ask that when she applied....
And this shows that everyone who was banking on the use of 'confirmatory referendum' to not possibly mean Remain would be the oucome if the deal failed was barking up the wrong tree. A referendum is to achieve Remain, nothing more, nothing less.
Of course it is.
Really we should have Camerons deal as well as Remain up against whatever Theremy come up with, why should only Leave have their options split?
If there is to be another referendum (and I don't think one will be helpful), then we need to ensure that whatever is voted on is deliverable: and that means the EU has to agree with them in advance.
In particular, I wonder of Cameron's deal is still on the table - and the same goes for any other options that are mentioned. May's deal and no deal are the only two cast-iron ones (the former having been agreed with them, and the latter not requiring a deal), with 'remain' probably being okay with the EU - although the conditions under which we remain would need to be made clear to the voters.
I think there has to be equal options for each side. So if "Mays Deal" and "No Deal" are Leave options "Remain on pre 2016 terms" and "Camerons renegotiation" could be Remain's
If the country were split exactly 50/50 Leave/Remain, and it were "Mays Deal" vs "Remain" on the ballot, that would be a huge advantage for Remain
Why so?
You surely can work that out for yourself
I cannot work it out for myself, indeed I do not believe it is true. Which is why I asked.
I wonder how long voter patience with the Tories will continue.... Surely there comes a time when we all go "Enough!" and their support simply collapses.
Making Corbyn look like PM material is tricky, but May seems to be managing it.
As soon as Corbyn goes, Labour win. Simple as that.
As long however as they are led by a notorious liar with the intellectual capacity of a stewed rabbit, the personality of a bar of a soap and a need to explain he isn't a racist, he just doesn't like certain types of people, they will struggle.
And the retort to your second paragraph is 'no' BTW.
Where I do agree is that when support collapses because Labour get a sane leader, they will implode badly. 1997 or worse seems eminently possible should Cooper or even Thornberry be leading five years from now.
I thought May wanted indicative votes on Monday in case she and Jez couldnt come up with something. or does she not want them controlled by backbenchers.
It was a big moment as the backbenchers cannot put forward their indicative votes including a referendum or revoke. The look on the faces of the TIGS and SNP said it all as they see their dreams disappear
SNP dreams alive and well G, referendum still on the cards
I know you hope for it Malc, but after all this chaos not sure your fellow Scots will want to go down that route again in the near future.
Polling says otherwise.
If you think this is a crisis wait until you have a border from Carlisle to Berwick affecting the 45 billion in goods and services Scotland exports to England, compared to the 12.7 billion Scotland exports to the EU (2016 figures)
I thought May wanted indicative votes on Monday in case she and Jez couldnt come up with something. or does she not want them controlled by backbenchers.
It was a big moment as the backbenchers cannot put forward their indicative votes including a referendum or revoke. The look on the faces of the TIGS and SNP said it all as they see their dreams disappear
SNP dreams alive and well G, referendum still on the cards
I know you hope for it Malc, but after all this chaos not sure your fellow Scots will want to go down that route again in the near future.
Polling says otherwise.
Mandate is there regardless of polling , we will see.
From what I’ve read and observed of Steve Baker over the last week (including the Laura Kuenssberg documentary) my assessment is that I think deep down he’s worried he might have got this badly wrong, but has boxed himself into a corner with his ego and feels he now has no choice but to fight ever more vociferously as a consequence.
I think he’s going to badly regret this in years to come.
And this shows that everyone who was banking on the use of 'confirmatory referendum' to not possibly mean Remain would be the oucome if the deal failed was barking up the wrong tree. A referendum is to achieve Remain, nothing more, nothing less.
Of course it is.
Really we should have Camerons deal as well as Remain up against whatever Theremy come up with, why should only Leave have their options split?
If there is to be another referendum (and I don't think one will be helpful), then we need to ensure that whatever is voted on is deliverable: and that means the EU has to agree with them in advance.
In particular, I wonder of Cameron's deal is still on the table - and the same goes for any other options that are mentioned. May's deal and no deal are the only two cast-iron ones (the former having been agreed with them, and the latter not requiring a deal), with 'remain' probably being okay with the EU - although the conditions under which we remain would need to be made clear to the voters.
I think there has to be equal options for each side. So if "Mays Deal" and "No Deal" are Leave options "Remain on pre 2016 terms" and "Camerons renegotiation" could be Remain's
If the country were split exactly 50/50 Leave/Remain, and it were "Mays Deal" vs "Remain" on the ballot, that would be a huge advantage for Remain
I think you're missing my point: the only options that should be offered in a referendum are ones the EU are happy with, and therefore can be delivered. We should not offer them unicorn flatulence again.
Yes, all 4 options there are deliverable and the EU are happy with except No Deal
Comments
IDS inherited the fitness to work scheme from Labour (although its convenient for them to forget that fact)
Universal Credit was supposed to pay more than the current benefits but Osbourne put paid to that.
https://twitter.com/stevebakerhw/status/1113457355700736006?s=21
After all, I am a Remainer...
Whoever would have seen that coming, eh?
The second problem is that nobody knows what Labour`s stance currently is. It changes from hour to hour, depending on who is speaking at the time. It is a moving target, and cannot be pinned down. Contrariwise, Labour can use any result to support its chosen policy as the famous will of the people, provided it redefines its policy quickly enough.
That way, they could have bought them for themselves.
Making Corbyn look like PM material is tricky, but May seems to be managing it.
I think as a country we are all heartily sick of this daily diet of Conservative infantilism and bullshit. So if the Tories go for an election, perhaps that will clear the air and rule them out of office for a generation. Not, perhaps what Gove and Boris maybe are expecting, but hey-ho.
NEW THREAD
As long however as they are led by a notorious liar with the intellectual capacity of a stewed rabbit, the personality of a bar of a soap and a need to explain he isn't a racist, he just doesn't like certain types of people, they will struggle.
And the retort to your second paragraph is 'no' BTW.
Where I do agree is that when support collapses because Labour get a sane leader, they will implode badly. 1997 or worse seems eminently possible should Cooper or even Thornberry be leading five years from now.
gone to a DIVISION
I think he’s going to badly regret this in years to come.