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  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Pretty obvious not everything that happened is reflected in the article
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited March 2019
    <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks possible in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.
  • Pretty obvious not everything that happened is reflected in the article
    For me this was the most interesting aspect of the story.

    He says that, after his refusal to take off the badge, he was detained for around 10 minutes until a second official returned his passport and allowed him to leave.

    He said the official told him to take off the badge in the airport because he was in danger of being assaulted.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Gammon pushes his luck with the authorities and then cashes in for clickbait
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,253
    IanB2 said:

    Once a PM has announced she is going, her power (such as it is now) drains away. She wont last long now. Quite possibly sorting out the long extension - which Laura K thinks she'll have to ask for next week - will be her closing chapter. Alternatively, if she decides not to, or if the EU says no, then she gets taken out as part of Parliament's closing off of no deal.

    I agree. It's just a matter of the price. 1.08 too short for me. This is Brexit!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888
    algarkirk said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Guardian has an ominous quote from a DUP source that Bojo “has done nothing to enhance his reputation for being slippery”.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/the-waugh-zone-thursday-march-28-2019_uk_5c9c8f7be4b072a7f6052f3a?ot8

    The article also suggests expectation that the DUP will fold at the last minute. But also that when people finally see the Withdrawal Bill - drafted but being kept under wraps - it will turn people against the deal.

    And the remarkable little factoid that on the Extension Vote half of the Tory Whips' Office defied their own three-line whip.

    The DUP will not fold. They represent one of the most entrenched and unyielding political tribes in the world. Never surrender.
    Is there anything which is both logically possible and the DUP would vote for? If there isn't (and I have not found anything yet) I think their real intention is to remain.
    Or, their real intention is to keep May in office?
  • Gammon pushes his luck with the authorities and then cashes in for clickbait
    He's a Remainer.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    Pulpstar said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think maybe somebody posted this already but if so here it is again because it's so great.

    https://twitter.com/MShepheard/status/1111167940911656960

    In particular, look down the bottom at the abstentions, which tell you where there may be extra votes to get stuff over the line.

    Yeah that chart isn't great news for the "confirmatory referendum" lot. Customs & Common Market 2.0 looking better than their initial Ayes.
    The question for Monday is whether if options are combined - for example a confirmatory referendum on a deal with a CU - do you build support by bringing together the supporters of both, or lose people by giving them more to object to?
    Yes. A good approach for Monday would be preference votes (AV) for four proposals.

    1. Mrs May's deal
    2. Mrs May's deal plus ref
    3. CU
    4. CU plus ref

    The ERG are not going to be happy that all their avenues are blocked off... There may be trouble ahead....
    They are a small minority and are not going to be happy anyway. Ignorable.

    I think CU plus Ref could get majority support including SNP, LD and TIGs who didn't support CU yesterday.

    I also think Mrs May's deal plus Ref could get majority support, losing some Tory supporters of Mrs May's deal because of Ref but gaining many more Lab, SNP, LD and TIGs who want a Ref.
    The Conservatives might support a CU addition but not a second referendum.
    Eight Tories already support a second Ref. Combine that with Mrs May's deal and some more would. How many we don't know but need to find out.
    Many more Conservatives supported a CU and it would be easier for others to switch to that IMO.
    Could be. Add a Ref to the CU and you'd get 11 Lds, 11 TIGs and possibly 35 SNPs and possibly lose a few of the 33 Tories who voted for CU.

    EDIT. Move towards Ref on Betfair. Last price placed is 3.2
    Are the Gov't really going to go for a line that only had a grand total of 8 of their own MPs in favour of it in a free vote ?
    They might if it is the only way to get Mrs May's deal over the line. That's the only thing she is focused on. If a Ref was forced on her, she'd accept it with regret (like she accepted the A50 delay).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    edited March 2019
    I was trying to work out what he was doing, but I think I've worked it out - Huw Merriman is the sleeper in the "confirmatory vote" process that advocates/pushes for "remain" to be off the ballot somehow.
  • <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks on the cards in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.

    But how does it stop it
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Gammon pushes his luck with the authorities and then cashes in for clickbait
    He's a Remainer.
    Gammon remainer lol
    Ok pompous oaf pushes his luck with etc etc
  • RobinWiggsRobinWiggs Posts: 621
    edited March 2019
    Yes - and since Deal + no deal is not a majority. The PM needs to tack quickly to her deal plus a more formal customs partnership (if not "the" customs union") in order that she has a hope of avoiding a long delay and delivering Brexit on her watch.

    Could that be achieved via the PD or further legally binding instruments and further assurances of no divergence for NI in case of backstop - or would we need to re-open the WA to achieve that?

    It will probably split the Tories - but would probably ensure that the centre-grouping was a centre-right dominated one not centre-left. I almost see benefit now accruing to the first party to split.
  • <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks on the cards in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.

    But how does it stop it
    May resignation, revocation.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,500

    Gammon pushes his luck with the authorities and then cashes in for clickbait
    He's a Remainer.
    First rule of air-travel. Do NOT upset security staff. One does occasionally meet one who's happy and cheerful but it's rare.
  • Idiot. Not a word I use often, but there it is.
    That is consistent with the view of the party membership. He does want to be leader.
    Blue line now between Boris and Raab.

    Who has miscalculated?
    I think Boris has. His position as 'leader over the water' of the Eurosceptics is now weaker than Raab. Plus his positive as an election winner as Mayor of London is waning versus his poor show as Foreign Secretary. What Boris is good at is being comfortable in his own skin on TV. I haven't seen enough of Raab to know how he does.
  • Gammon pushes his luck with the authorities and then cashes in for clickbait
    He's a Remainer.
    First rule of air-travel. Do NOT upset security staff. One does occasionally meet one who's happy and cheerful but it's rare.
    You're telling me?

    I cannot explain why airport security staff keep on pulling me over.
  • bunncobunnco Posts: 169

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
  • <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks on the cards in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.

    But how does it stop it
    May resignation, revocation.
    Revocation will not happen. TM resignation is likely to make no deal more likely
  • <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks on the cards in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.

    But how does it stop it
    May resignation, revocation.
    Revocation will not happen. TM resignation is likely to make no deal more likely
    Never say never in politics.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Meanwhile this is one vote Dominic Raab is going to struggle for:

    https://twitter.com/PM4EastRen/status/1111213677309542406
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,503
    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    I think he's bright but also dogmatic and suffers from serious social deficiencies.

    I'm neutral on him. The only one I've laid like an absolute beast is Boris.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,500
    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily

    Hmm; of whom does that remind me
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.

    pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...
  • <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks on the cards in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.

    But how does it stop it
    May resignation, revocation.
    Revocation will not happen. TM resignation is likely to make no deal more likely
    Never say never in politics.
    On last nights votes it just does not have the numbers and my real concerns relate to how the HOC allows the UK to take part in EU elections, and of course revoke is void if we are not involved in those elections
  • I can see Michael Gove endorsing Dominic Raab.

    Whether that would be a help or a hindrance to Raab I'll let others decide.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Bill still fighting the Maastricht rebellion like a mad old coot
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks on the cards in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.

    But how does it stop it
    May resignation, revocation.
    Revocation will not happen. TM resignation is likely to make no deal more likely
    Never say never in politics.
    On last nights votes it just does not have the numbers and my real concerns relate to how the HOC allows the UK to take part in EU elections, and of course revoke is void if we are not involved in those elections
    I don't think Revoke would be void, you just have a massive, confusing shitshow.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,691
    edited March 2019
    Scott_P said:

    pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.

    pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...
    This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.

    It was close to three figures.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    Surely the ERG will have to sack Rees-Mogg. If Cash is correct, they've literally got a Remoaner as their leader.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Does this all end up in a GE where someone gets a wafer majority on 33% of a 50% turnout?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,253
    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,691
    edited March 2019
    kinabalu said:

    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.

    The son of a Jewish immigrant fleeing the Nazis becoming PM is a great narrative.
  • JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Why should we have people of French extraction such as Francois and Farage in positions of influence?

    And Saxe-Coburg's pretending to be Windsors?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291

    JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
    Speaking from Hersham in deepest Lancashire.....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    kinabalu said:

    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.

    The son of a Jewish immigrant fleeing the Nazis becoming PM is a great narrative.
    Howard lost in 2005...
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    <<Has anyone a convincing argument how we stop it. The EU are not happy with the UK taking part in their elections but they have no choice in the event of referendum or a GE

    Furthermore, are we really going to get the HOC to consent to the UK taking part in these elections

    There are just 14 days to stop no deal >>

    If no-deal still looks on the cards in a week's time, I predict the petition will rise again and possibly put on another 6 million. The pressure to avoid will be enormous.

    But how does it stop it
    May resignation, revocation.
    Revocation will not happen. TM resignation is likely to make no deal more likely
    Never say never in politics.
    On last nights votes it just does not have the numbers and my real concerns relate to how the HOC allows the UK to take part in EU elections, and of course revoke is void if we are not involved in those elections
    We had this debate here the other day and I thought our legal eagles had advised that the legislation for the EU elections remains in place and will only be repealed on Brexit day?

    In which case if we go for the long extension then the elections will happen automatically without parliament needing to do anything.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    Brexit means err the French cleaning up on their speeding fines !

    INT'L 0002529905 AMENDE RADAR WEB23 RENNES EUR 45.00 @ 1.1514 Visa Rate :(
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    Bill still fighting the Maastricht rebellion like a mad old coot
    I must be missing something. The WA just gets us out. The next stage is still to be decided. It is not Maastricht revisited.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725

    kinabalu said:

    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.

    The son of a Jewish immigrant fleeing the Nazis becoming PM is a great narrative.
    Propelled by supporters who think the EU is a Nazi superstate.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    kinabalu said:

    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.

    The son of a Jewish immigrant fleeing the Nazis becoming PM is a great narrative.
    Howard lost in 2005...
    And Ed Miliband.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Norm said:

    Bill still fighting the Maastricht rebellion like a mad old coot
    I must be missing something. The WA just gets us out. The next stage is still to be decided. It is not Maastricht revisited.
    Bill and co see everything as maastricht revisited
  • RobinWiggsRobinWiggs Posts: 621
    edited March 2019
    Norm said:

    Bill still fighting the Maastricht rebellion like a mad old coot
    I must be missing something. The WA just gets us out. The next stage is still to be decided. It is not Maastricht revisited.
    Yep. Sadly most MPs don't appear to have got past the first dozen pages.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Fenman said:

    Why should we have people of French extraction such as Francois and Farage in positions of influence?

    And Saxe-Coburg's pretending to be Windsors?
    Saxe-Coburg doesn't sound very French. ;)
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think maybe somebody posted this already but if so here it is again because it's so great.

    https://twitter.com/MShepheard/status/1111167940911656960

    In particular, look down the bottom at the abstentions, which tell you where there may be extra votes to get stuff over the line.

    Yeah that chart isn't great news for the "confirmatory referendum" lot. Customs & Common Market 2.0 looking better than their initial Ayes.
    The question for Monday is whether if options are combined - for example a confirmatory referendum on a deal with a CU - do you build support by bringing together the supporters of both, or lose people by giving them more to object to?
    Yes. A good approach for Monday would be preference votes (AV) for four proposals.

    1. Mrs May's deal
    2. Mrs May's deal plus ref
    3. CU
    4. CU plus ref

    The ERG are not going to be happy that all their avenues are blocked off... There may be trouble ahead....
    They are a small minority and are not going to be happy anyway. Ignorable.

    I think CU plus Ref could get majority support including SNP, LD and TIGs who didn't support CU yesterday.

    I also think Mrs May's deal plus Ref could get majority support, losing some Tory supporters of Mrs May's deal because of Ref but gaining many more Lab, SNP, LD and TIGs who want a Ref.
    The Conservatives might support a CU addition but not a second referendum.
    John Mann has just said on Sky there are 60 to 70 labour mps implacably opposed to a referendum

    If true there will not be a referendum
    Not true. Only 27 Labour MPs voted against a referendum yesterday and another 19 abstained. That's not 60 to 70 implacably opposed.
    I can only pass on his comments. Like everything brexit who knows
    If you take the recent petition as reflecting current opinion then Labour MPs (or those voted in as Labour) represent 53 or the most remain constituencies and 76 or the most leave constituencies. That is close to half their MPs. By contrast there 35 Tories in the most Remain seats and 25 in the most leave seats which is less than 20% for the Tories. When it comes down to it and Labour make a decision it is more likely to affect a significant proportion of their seats.

    The problem the Tories have is that it is the MPs themselves who have extreme views even if it is not reflected by their constituents.
  • kinabalu said:

    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.

    The son of a Jewish immigrant fleeing the Nazis becoming PM is a great narrative.
    Howard lost in 2005...
    Howard wasn't up against a party that is riddled with anti Semites.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Scott_P said:

    pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.

    pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...
    The Tory Party is no longer the Tory Party, rather like the Labour Party is no longer the Labour Party. Both are in the grip of their respective lunatic fringes. Bad news all round for the country
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily

    Hmm; of whom does that remind me

    It's like they've implanted May's brain into Jason Statham's body.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily

    Hmm; of whom does that remind me
    Well which of the contenders is a coalition builder? Building contacts and supporters in the bars around the parliamentary estate?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    kinabalu said:

    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.

    The son of a Jewish immigrant fleeing the Nazis becoming PM is a great narrative.
    Howard lost in 2005...
    Howard wasn't up against a party that is riddled with anti Semites.
    Oh yes, I forgot this....

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-criticised-for-anti-semitic-howard-poster-488998.html
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think maybe somebody posted this already but if so here it is again because it's so great.

    https://twitter.com/MShepheard/status/1111167940911656960

    In particular, look down the bottom at the abstentions, which tell you where there may be extra votes to get stuff over the line.

    Yeah that chart isn't great news for the "confirmatory referendum" lot. Customs & Common Market 2.0 looking better than their initial Ayes.
    The question for Monday is whether if options are combined - for example a confirmatory referendum on a deal with a CU - do you build support by bringing together the supporters of both, or lose people by giving them more to object to?
    Yes. A good approach for Monday would be preference votes (AV) for four proposals.

    1. Mrs May's deal
    2. Mrs May's deal plus ref
    3. CU
    4. CU plus ref

    The ERG are not going to be happy that all their avenues are blocked off... There may be trouble ahead....
    They are a small minority and are not going to be happy anyway. Ignorable.

    I think CU plus Ref could get majority support including SNP, LD and TIGs who didn't support CU yesterday.

    I also think Mrs May's deal plus Ref could get majority support, losing some Tory supporters of Mrs May's deal because of Ref but gaining many more Lab, SNP, LD and TIGs who want a Ref.
    The Conservatives might support a CU addition but not a second referendum.
    John Mann has just said on Sky there are 60 to 70 labour mps implacably opposed to a referendum

    If true there will not be a referendum
    I'm no fan of a 2nd ref, but is that correct ?

    Lab seats: 245

    Lab 2nd ref

    Noe (Broke whip) 27
    Aye 198
    Abstentions 20

    So at most 47 ?
    Last night they were sold the fudge of a "confirmatory vote" without it being spelled out what a No vote would entail or if Remain would be an option.

    Expect the 47 Lab opposed to increase when that fudge becomes clear it is a vehicle for Deal v Remain and the route to revoke.
    Did Ma Beckett realy get through her speech without giving that particular game away ? If so impressive obfuscation.
    The government has majority of 7. Adding 31, and subtracting 8, increases that to 53 against a second referendum - which increases if some MP's are opposed to Remain being on the ballot.
  • bunncobunnco Posts: 169
    What you also need to remember is that 5400 Conservative Councillors are defending their own seats on May 2nd in the local elections. And a further 4000-ish are standing in seats the Party does not currently hold. It's the biggest election in the local election cycle because a large number of smaller districts are standing.

    Say the number is 9000 Conservatives standing. That's probably 10pc of the party membership. Many have spouses as members. And the activists will also be helping out too.

    Somewhere between 20-25% of the total membership and over half the Member activists. That is quite a constituency within the party - all of whom will have a vote.

    The Golf Club bores never help, armchair Generals who can pontificate but wouldn't what to do with know a letterbox at 100 paces if given 200 leaflets to deliver. They're too busy posting online when everyone else is hard at work!

    Most of those 9000 Council candidates, their families and activist friends are in despair. Upto half the part's membership. Leaflets are on hold. Canvassing isn't happening.

    And I'm not sure that these real grassroots be quite so enthusiastic to back a hardliner as the betting market indicates given that they have made their own seats so vulnerable.

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    In Truss we trust. Her shagging exploits aside, comprehensive education, primary school in Paisley for the Scots. Had actual jobs before politics and is a low tax fan.
  • bunncobunnco Posts: 169

    In Truss we trust. Her shagging exploits aside, comprehensive education, primary school in Paisley for the Scots. Had actual jobs before politics and is a low tax fan.

    Yep. And Gove will endorse her before Raab.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    Pulpstar said:


    Did Ma Beckett realy get through her speech without giving that particular game away ? If so impressive obfuscation.

    It was a great speech.

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1110947705633849350
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    bunnco said:

    In Truss we trust. Her shagging exploits aside, comprehensive education, primary school in Paisley for the Scots. Had actual jobs before politics and is a low tax fan.

    Yep. And Gove will endorse her before Raab.
    And 66/1
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
    Speaking from Hersham in deepest Lancashire.....
    Getting ready to take your seat in the Lords when Raab becomes PM JohnO? :D
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    bunnco said:

    In Truss we trust. Her shagging exploits aside, comprehensive education, primary school in Paisley for the Scots. Had actual jobs before politics and is a low tax fan.

    Yep. And Gove will endorse her before Raab.
    And 66/1
    Her father is a Leeds Uni professor and expert on axiomatic set theory. That should help with the Treasury stuff.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    bunnco said:

    What you also need to remember is that 5400 Conservative Councillors are defending their own seats on May 2nd in the local elections. And a further 4000-ish are standing in seats the Party does not currently hold. It's the biggest election in the local election cycle because a large number of smaller districts are standing.

    Say the number is 9000 Conservatives standing. That's probably 10pc of the party membership. Many have spouses as members. And the activists will also be helping out too.

    Somewhere between 20-25% of the total membership and over half the Member activists. That is quite a constituency within the party - all of whom will have a vote.

    The Golf Club bores never help, armchair Generals who can pontificate but wouldn't what to do with know a letterbox at 100 paces if given 200 leaflets to deliver. They're too busy posting online when everyone else is hard at work!

    Most of those 9000 Council candidates, their families and activist friends are in despair. Upto half the part's membership. Leaflets are on hold. Canvassing isn't happening.

    And I'm not sure that these real grassroots be quite so enthusiastic to back a hardliner as the betting market indicates given that they have made their own seats so vulnerable.

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot.

    Still, it isn't 1995 in local government terms (it might be 1991 or 1999). Most councillors can be pretty sure of being re-elected.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    bunnco said:

    In Truss we trust. Her shagging exploits aside, comprehensive education, primary school in Paisley for the Scots. Had actual jobs before politics and is a low tax fan.

    Yep. And Gove will endorse her before Raab.
    And 66/1
    Her father is a Leeds Uni professor and expert on axiomatic set theory. That should help with the Treasury stuff.
    Brought up in a hard left family. What's not to like? Truss for PM!
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,289
    edited March 2019
    Friday: What I think government should move/do = Approval for WA, but request further negotiation on PD to make CU central objective.

    Likely amendments:
    Try to reopen WA and put the CU in there (Raabproofing amendment). Govt whip against.
    Remove the CU from the PD (ERG back to MV3 amendment), if Bercow allows. Govt don't whip.
    Bung Confirmatory referendum as well as CU. Govt whip against.
    ...others?

    But, if one or more of the 3 amendments pass, Govt should whip in favour of ultimate text.

    What I think govt will do = something else entirely
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    dr_spyn said:

    Who is the stop Boris candidate?

    On past form, it's Boris...
  • bunncobunnco Posts: 169
    Lessons from History - From the Political Betting Channel 2 archive

    How Liz Truss got her seat.

    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/11/all-trussed-up-and-nowhere-to-go.html
    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/11/south-west-norfolk-were-going-into.html
    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2009/11/cinders-shall-go-to-ball.html

    And she has now the Norfolk Turnip Taliban in the South West Norfolk Constituency eating out of her hand.

    Ten years ago. Modesty forbids me from identifying the author

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    GIN1138 said:

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
    Speaking from Hersham in deepest Lancashire.....
    Getting ready to take your seat in the Lords when Raab becomes PM JohnO? :D
    Someone needs to stand up for tolerance, dignity and humility against Andrew Adonis and I’d do that rather well, though I say so myself.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    edited March 2019
    Sean_F said:

    bunnco said:

    What you also need to remember is that 5400 Conservative Councillors are defending their own seats on May 2nd in the local elections. And a further 4000-ish are standing in seats the Party does not currently hold. It's the biggest election in the local election cycle because a large number of smaller districts are standing.

    Say the number is 9000 Conservatives standing. That's probably 10pc of the party membership. Many have spouses as members. And the activists will also be helping out too.

    Somewhere between 20-25% of the total membership and over half the Member activists. That is quite a constituency within the party - all of whom will have a vote.

    The Golf Club bores never help, armchair Generals who can pontificate but wouldn't what to do with know a letterbox at 100 paces if given 200 leaflets to deliver. They're too busy posting online when everyone else is hard at work!

    Most of those 9000 Council candidates, their families and activist friends are in despair. Upto half the part's membership. Leaflets are on hold. Canvassing isn't happening.

    And I'm not sure that these real grassroots be quite so enthusiastic to back a hardliner as the betting market indicates given that they have made their own seats so vulnerable.

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot.

    Still, it isn't 1995 in local government terms (it might be 1991 or 1999). Most councillors can be pretty sure of being re-elected.
    Even those who are sure to be elected won't be sure that they will be elected. It goes with the turf of putting yourself on the line. And you spend every day getting lots of feedback from your grateful voters. So he's right that this is a particularly sensitive time. Things will settle down (or not!) after polling day.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    bunnco said:

    In Truss we trust. Her shagging exploits aside, comprehensive education, primary school in Paisley for the Scots. Had actual jobs before politics and is a low tax fan.

    Yep. And Gove will endorse her before Raab.
    And 66/1
    Her father is a Leeds Uni professor and expert on axiomatic set theory. That should help with the Treasury stuff.
    Brought up in a hard left family. What's not to like? Truss for PM!
    A former President of Oxford Uni Lib Dems!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Pretty obvious not everything that happened is reflected in the article
    Another example, police now interfering on people's political opinions
    https://twitter.com/HarryTheOwl/status/1110503943245688832
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    JohnO said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
    Speaking from Hersham in deepest Lancashire.....
    Getting ready to take your seat in the Lords when Raab becomes PM JohnO? :D
    Someone needs to stand up for tolerance, dignity and humility against Andrew Adonis and I’d do that rather well, though I say so myself.
    Hope you'll put in a good word for OGH as well (but not TSE - We can't have someone with his taste in shoes in HoL) :D
  • JohnO said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
    Speaking from Hersham in deepest Lancashire.....
    Getting ready to take your seat in the Lords when Raab becomes PM JohnO? :D
    Someone needs to stand up for tolerance, dignity and humility against Andrew Adonis and I’d do that rather well, though I say so myself.
    You would.

    When Raab becomes PM you'll put in a good word about me getting a GCMG.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    JohnO said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and was a useless Housing Minister at MHCLG when he was the first Housing Minister to be against, errr, housing. And his own Association's Councillors don't rate him either. And he has spent even less time in the bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    =
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
    Speaking from Hersham in deepest Lancashire.....
    Getting ready to take your seat in the Lords when Raab becomes PM JohnO? :D
    Someone needs to stand up for tolerance, dignity and humility against Andrew Adonis and I’d do that rather well, though I say so myself.
    You would.

    When Raab becomes PM you'll put in a good word about me getting a GCMG.
    I thought you were a republican (like Liz Truss once was!)?
  • Pulpstar said:


    Did Ma Beckett realy get through her speech without giving that particular game away ? If so impressive obfuscation.

    It was a great speech.

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1110947705633849350
    If we had a 2nd referendum and if the people confirmed they wished to leave then the Remainers would still obfuscate and try and delay matters.
  • GIN1138 said:


    Hope you'll put in a good word for OGH as well (but not TSE - We can't have someone with his taste in shoes in HoL) :D

    I don't want to go to the Lords.

    Being a member of the legislature has never really appealed to me.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621

    Pulpstar said:


    Did Ma Beckett realy get through her speech without giving that particular game away ? If so impressive obfuscation.

    It was a great speech.

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1110947705633849350
    If we had a 2nd referendum and if the people confirmed they wished to leave then the Remainers would still obfuscate and try and delay matters.
    No they wouldn't. There would be no grounds for that.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291

    JohnO said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    bunnco said:

    Do not bet against Dominic Raab for next Tory leader unless his price shortens very markedly. He's got the hardline sewn up now I'd say.

    Last November I had dinner with a junior Minister. She told me that Davis, Johnson & Redwood had worked out for themselves that if they all stood against each other in the upcoming leadership they would dilute the votes from what we know know to be 105 hardliners in the Parliamentary party.

    Other Candidates would fish in the pool of 205 of the other more moderate colleagues.

    And, to be leader you need to get into the last two from the MPs. And then you need to go to the membership. But you only get to go to the membership if you get to the last two.

    So, she told me that they had all agreed to coalesce around Raab. Put to one side for a moment that he is socially awkward, a wierd loner who doesn't make friends easily and wasthe bar that Theresa May ever did. And if you don't spend time in the bar....

    No, they felt, a 'clean skin' who could be controlled by the old men and a new generation to carry the flame forward. Davis called him 'My boy'. Quite.

    His wooden appearance on SkyNews just now confirms that he can't really think on his feet.

    But as I wrote last Wednesday, he has a wealthy backer who barged me out of the way in The Collondades in Parliament last week as if he owned the place. The Pol Ed of a national newspaper [to whom I was talking] said "That's Raab's money man".

    The question really is whether Johnson, Davis, Redwood will really sit on their hands to avoid splitting the hardliners when it becomes clear how useless, flakey and, yes, wierd Raab really is.


    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
    Hold on a sec: you may be correct on many of your points but you certainly aren’t with respect to his relationship with E&W councillors. I know them all well and the overwhelming majority of them rate Raab highly (even if they don’t share his views).
    Can you give Raab some geography lessons?
    Speaking from Hersham in deepest Lancashire.....
    Getting ready to take your seat in the Lords when Raab becomes PM JohnO? :D
    Someone needs to stand up for tolerance, dignity and humility against Andrew Adonis and I’d do that rather well, though I say so myself.
    You would.

    When Raab becomes PM you'll put in a good word about me getting a GCMG.
    No honour is a real honour unless it’s purchased. I do accept cheques but cash is preferred.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Pro_Rata said:

    Friday: What I think government should move/do = Approval for WA, but request further negotiation on PD to make CU central objective.

    The best bet would be just to pass the WA without any PD and then we decide where we want to go next with the trade arrangements through a general election.
  • JohnO said:


    No honour is a real honour unless it’s purchased. I do accept cheques but cash is preferred.

    I was having a clear out the other day and found some brown envelopes.

    Now I have a use for them.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888
    edited March 2019
    Norm said:
    Isn't Easter not until April 21st? :naughty:
  • Norm said:
    Detention for the misbehaving rabble...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,500

    kinabalu said:

    Oh not Dominic Raab please. We are a great and venerable nation. We deserve better than that.

    The son of a Jewish immigrant fleeing the Nazis becoming PM is a great narrative.
    Propelled by supporters who think the EU is a Nazi superstate.
    Didn't work for Ed, though, did it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    GIN1138 said:


    Hope you'll put in a good word for OGH as well (but not TSE - We can't have someone with his taste in shoes in HoL) :D

    I don't want to go to the Lords.

    Being a member of the legislature has never really appealed to me.
    House of Unelected Has-Beens?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    GIN1138 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Friday: What I think government should move/do = Approval for WA, but request further negotiation on PD to make CU central objective.

    The best bet would be just to pass the WA without any PD and then we decide where we want to go next with the trade arrangements through a general election.
    We were told by one of our legal eagles the other day that the Withdrawal Act does not allow the WA to be agreed separately from the PD.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Norm said:
    Isn't Easter not until April 21st? :naughty:
    Yeah but they probably have about four weeks off for Easter (two weeks before and two before weeks after) :D
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    malcolmg said:

    Pretty obvious not everything that happened is reflected in the article
    Another example, police now interfering on people's political opinions
    https://twitter.com/HarryTheOwl/status/1110503943245688832
    I mean, I'm pretty anti police, but I'm also pretty anti people being god awful on the internet.

    We have two options: social stigma, or legal recourse. If people keep telling everyone that social stigma is = censorship, then legal recourse is all their is. I don't think people should be able to go on the internet and say "political speech" about things that are clearly bad. "All black people should be enslaved again" should not be okay to say. "Gas the Jews" should not be okay. "Trans people don't exist" similarly. Medical understanding of trans people has been around for ~100 years, and a cultural understanding for a lot longer (Native American customs, Torahnic Judaism, and many other non European cultures have a history of accepting non binary and trans people throughout history). Indeed, the first book burnings by the Nazis were of doctors who were studying trans medicine. All speech is political. "Bring the Caliphate to the Infidel" is political; it is also god awful and shouldn't be tolerated.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    GIN1138 said:


    Hope you'll put in a good word for OGH as well (but not TSE - We can't have someone with his taste in shoes in HoL) :D

    I don't want to go to the Lords.

    Being a member of the legislature has never really appealed to me.
    House of Unelected Has-Beens?
    Belay that!

    Actually

    HoL = House of Unelected Has-Beens
    HoC = House of Tw@ts
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    GIN1138 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Friday: What I think government should move/do = Approval for WA, but request further negotiation on PD to make CU central objective.

    The best bet would be just to pass the WA without any PD and then we decide where we want to go next with the trade arrangements through a general election.
    We were told by one of our legal eagles the other day that the Withdrawal Act does not allow the WA to be agreed separately from the PD.
    Is it true that the PD is not legally binding?

    So if for example the PD said we want a CU but not SM membership but then subsequently a new government was elected that wanted SM but not CU there would be nothing in the PD to stop that happening?

    (God, what did we do before all these terms like PD, CU and SM became common knowledge? :D )
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    148grss said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pretty obvious not everything that happened is reflected in the article
    Another example, police now interfering on people's political opinions
    https://twitter.com/HarryTheOwl/status/1110503943245688832
    I mean, I'm pretty anti police, but I'm also pretty anti people being god awful on the internet.

    We have two options: social stigma, or legal recourse. If people keep telling everyone that social stigma is = censorship, then legal recourse is all their is. I don't think people should be able to go on the internet and say "political speech" about things that are clearly bad. "All black people should be enslaved again" should not be okay to say. "Gas the Jews" should not be okay. "Trans people don't exist" similarly. Medical understanding of trans people has been around for ~100 years, and a cultural understanding for a lot longer (Native American customs, Torahnic Judaism, and many other non European cultures have a history of accepting non binary and trans people throughout history). Indeed, the first book burnings by the Nazis were of doctors who were studying trans medicine. All speech is political. "Bring the Caliphate to the Infidel" is political; it is also god awful and shouldn't be tolerated.
    Springtime for Hitler.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    matt said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    There was some speculation yesterday that the DUP might simply abstain in MV3. Their statement didn't indicate that but if they did does anyone have a feel for whether enough ERG members have now changed their position?
    Last time out May lost by 149. 10 abstentions brings the margin of defeat down to 139. That means 70 switchers. That seems a lot.

    I think even with the DUP on board there are over 30 unreconciled Tories. Read the account of Steve Baker addressing the ERG and ask yourself how likely he is to change what we can politely call his mind. He is far from alone.
    The account of Steve Baker's rant at the meeting is one of the funniest things I've read.
    This man was a minister of the crown in the present government. That is terrifying.
    Mark Francois was a Minister of State in the previous government.
    You're not making me feel better. Imagine being a backbencher who hadn't held a position and those two had. It would be practically defamatory.
    Are MPs panicking yet? 9 hours away and my distanced impression is that they all still believe their right and all is required is every other MP to understand this.
    Personally I think they're right not to be panicking just now. The Letwin process (another good name for an airport novel) is being followed and yesterday's indicative votes were a lot more illuminating than I had expected. Two options command real support in Parliament - a lot more than Theresa May's deal. If those three are put through from judges' houses to the live show next Monday, we can reasonably hope matters will become a bit clearer still then.
    You are being uncharacteristically optimistic.

    I am assuming that we crash out with No Deal on 12 April, which is the Friday before Palm Sunday and Holy Week. Somehow that feels appropriate. We are in need of miracles.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Norm said:
    Isn't Easter not until April 21st? :naughty:
    Serves them right; they should have voted for Letwin the first time
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,500

    Norm said:
    Detention for the misbehaving rabble...
    So they 'something well' ought to. 'Job and finish' means getting on with it until it IS finished. Certainly can't go before 12th in case something goes wrong and it's left to he Government!!!!.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    good to see at least one conservative has kept his sense of perspective
This discussion has been closed.