So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
I believe pigs are unusually rather than massively endowed; the end of their penis is corkscrew shaped and locks into place during the act.
I had a friend who trained as a pig farmer before deciding he was better suited to the antiques trade, just in case anyone thinks I have an excessive interest in the subject.
This clip with would be pig farmer Willie Rennie doesn't confirm much, other than politicians should avoid working with animals.
I know we joke about the 'nothing has changed' stuff, but it seriously cannot be normal that literally the same story that ran back in December about there being another meaningful vote being run depending on how big the defeat is, with hopes of it being around by around 100, is being circulated again with the dates changed and a 3 after MV instead of a 2?
I mean, that is bonkers. I know May has no other plan to get something agreed other than playing for time, but for heaven's sake MPs, you are going to be very clear how much you do not want to pass this deal, it cannot be beyond even your wit to realise it is time to pass something else to break the impasse?
I fear 'something else' will be passed on the afternoon of March 29th and a Revoke letter will be couriered to Brussels by helicopter later that evening.
Who does this unnamed Brexiteer mean by 'we' and what does losing mean? Because surely the most exuberant Brexiteers think losing means the deal passing?
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
Brexit will not happen. Well done - you won. We were offered a vote, but well, most MPs had no real intention of honouring it. Remain kicked and screamed and sulked and sabotaged, and, well, looks like we're stuck in the EU now.
I can't really be arsed voting again.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
The more charitable explanation as advanced by some on here is that the deal is not really leaving (though I find that argument very weak) or of course that no deal is better than a crap deal - but I have been surprised how many really do seem to believe that no brexit is better than a bad brexit.
No Brexit means that the ERG, Farage etc can retreat to their comfort zone and spend the rest of their lives ranting about betrayal and treachery. A bad Brexit means they have to spend the rest of their lives trying the explain why the fantasy world they promised has not materialised.
However, the Institut also modelled the effect of a “hard but smart” Brexit, where the UK left with no deal but also put in place large unilateral tariff cuts, more or less exactly along the lines of what what the Government is planning. In this scenario, the UK actually faces a smaller impact than the EU – they forecast a -0.5% impact on the UK compared to -0.4% for France and -0.48% for Germany, and -0.6% for the EU as a whole. Ireland is still by far the biggest loser, taking a -5.39% hit, ten times the size of the UK…
Do you realise the UK suffers a downturn in that scenario?
Not what Vote Leave promised the voters.
The fact the Irish suffer more than us will be no comfort to people in the UK who lose their jobs.
Which is that a 0.5% fall in GDP usually means.
you said disaster - 0.5% is not a disaster
Unless you are one of the families who lose their jobs from it, then have to try to find another in a bear (labour) market.
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
I reckon plan B is a 21 month extension. So much the same as the WA in practice, just inside the EU rather than inside. We could leave straight to an FTA, except our negotiators have both the energy and competence of a dead snail.
Except we can't negotiate an FTA while a member of the EU.
Who does this unnamed Brexiteer mean by 'we' and what does losing mean? Because surely the most exuberant Brexiteers think losing means the deal passing?
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
Brexit will not happen. Well done - you won. We were offered a vote, but well, most MPs had no real intention of honouring it. Remain kicked and screamed and sulked and sabotaged, and, well, looks like we're stuck in the EU now.
I can't really be arsed voting again.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
The more charitable explanation as advanced by some on here is that the deal is not really leaving (though I find that argument very weak) or of course that no deal is better than a crap deal - but I have been surprised how many really do seem to believe that no brexit is better than a bad brexit.
No Brexit means that the ERG, Farage etc can retreat to their comfort zone and spend the rest of their lives ranting about betrayal and treachery. A bad Brexit means they have to spend the rest of their lives trying the explain why the fantasy world they promised has not materialised.
Exactly
Plus, as a bonus, Farage not only gets to keep MEP salary as leader of The Brexit Party, but also gets to play with a load of other populist nationalists in Brussels for another five years.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
How silly everyone was to think that picture of the Statue of Liberty being attacked by an alien adorned with a Star of David was antisemitic!
No doubt it was a six-pointed star just by pure chance. Might as well have been an equilateral triangle or a parallelogram.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
A referendum would break the Tory party. Just like all the other sensible ways out of it.
Well, Brexit might still be a total sh*tfest but I have watched one of the most glorious Champions League combacks this evening, so I am off to bed a happy man.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
How silly everyone was to think that picture of the Statue of Liberty being attacked by an alien adorned with a Star of David was antisemitic!
No doubt it was a six-pointed star just by pure chance. Might as well have been an equilateral triangle or a parallelogram.
Except the difference is that Fabricant deleted the image and apologised for it, he took responsibility, said it was offensive and said he hadn't seen the image properly on his phone.
Believable? I don't know. But he apologised and deleted it quickly. He didn't look at it after complaints were raised and say it was perfectly acceptable. That's a key difference.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
A referendum would break the Tory party. Just like all the other sensible ways out of it.
"President Donald Trump has a private meeting with close advisors at the White House to discuss a wide range of topics, including concerns about possibly facing former Vice President Joe Biden in 2020."
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
I reckon plan B is a 21 month extension. So much the same as the WA in practice, just inside the EU rather than inside. We could leave straight to an FTA, except our negotiators have both the energy and competence of a dead snail.
Except we can't negotiate an FTA while a member of the EU.
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
Brexit will not happen. Well done - you won. We were offered a vote, but well, most MPs had no real intention of honouring it. Remain kicked and screamed and sulked and sabotaged, and, well, looks like we're stuck in the EU now.
I can't really be arsed voting again.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
Brexit will not happen. Well done - you won. We were offered a vote, but well, most MPs had no real intention of honouring it. Remain kicked and screamed and sulked and sabotaged, and, well, looks like we're stuck in the EU now.
I can't really be arsed voting again.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
Brexit will not happen. Well done - you won. We were offered a vote, but well, most MPs had no real intention of honouring it. Remain kicked and screamed and sulked and sabotaged, and, well, looks like we're stuck in the EU now.
I can't really be arsed voting again.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
Funny that this is all an uproar over something apologised for and said to be unacceptable ...
... in order to distract from something investigated, cleared and deemed by Labour to be officially acceptable.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
How silly everyone was to think that picture of the Statue of Liberty being attacked by an alien adorned with a Star of David was antisemitic!
No doubt it was a six-pointed star just by pure chance. Might as well have been an equilateral triangle or a parallelogram.
Except the difference is that Fabricant deleted the image and apologised for it, he took responsibility, said it was offensive and said he hadn't seen the image properly on his phone.
Believable? I don't know. But he apologised and deleted it quickly. He didn't look at it after complaints were raised and say it was perfectly acceptable. That's a key difference.
Sure. We all know that as soon as these things are deleted no more is said about them.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
#rattled
Not rattled, I've said repeatedly here I couldn't care less if we remain instead of this deal. Irritated and bored by the insane unicorn bullshit.
Every standard country in the world can operate its borders without unicorns. So can we.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
Funny that this is all an uproar over something apologised for and said to be unacceptable ...
... in order to distract from something investigated, cleared and deemed by Labour to be officially acceptable.
Sure - when it's a Muslim being buggered by a pig, it's just a "distraction".
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
How silly everyone was to think that picture of the Statue of Liberty being attacked by an alien adorned with a Star of David was antisemitic!
No doubt it was a six-pointed star just by pure chance. Might as well have been an equilateral triangle or a parallelogram.
Except the difference is that Fabricant deleted the image and apologised for it, he took responsibility, said it was offensive and said he hadn't seen the image properly on his phone.
Believable? I don't know. But he apologised and deleted it quickly. He didn't look at it after complaints were raised and say it was perfectly acceptable. That's a key difference.
Sure. We all know that as soon as these things are deleted no more is said about them.
If the statue of liberty image had been deleted and apologised for that would be very different to being complained about and deemed to be acceptable don't you think?
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
A referendum would break the Tory party. Just like all the other sensible ways out of it.
It’s pretty well crocked anyway.
Only in comparison with Labour is it more or less holding things together.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
It would depend whether or not it was amusing.
Sure - because we all know Islamophobia is fine provided it's "amusing".
Funny that this is all an uproar over something apologised for and said to be unacceptable ...
... in order to distract from something investigated, cleared and deemed by Labour to be officially acceptable.
Sure - when it's a Muslim being buggered by a pig, it's just a "distraction".
No when its something APOLOGISED FOR and called offensive by the person who did it is being compared to something stood by and deemed OFFICIALLY ACCEPTABLE by the party on the urging of the leader's office then its a distraction.
The fact you can't tell the difference between "this is wrong" and "this is OK" says more about you than the races involved.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
A referendum would break the Tory party. Just like all the other sensible ways out of it.
It’s pretty well crocked anyway.
Only in comparison with Labour is it more or less holding things together.
The thing is, I can see a path to Labour moving forward, if not harmoniously then at least mostly in the same direction. I cannot see how the Tories manage that given the implacable positions on Brexit.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
It would depend whether or not it was amusing.
Sure - because we all know Islamophobia is fine provided it's "amusing".
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
How silly everyone was to think that picture of the Statue of Liberty being attacked by an alien adorned with a Star of David was antisemitic!
No doubt it was a six-pointed star just by pure chance. Might as well have been an equilateral triangle or a parallelogram.
Except the difference is that Fabricant deleted the image and apologised for it, he took responsibility, said it was offensive and said he hadn't seen the image properly on his phone.
Believable? I don't know. But he apologised and deleted it quickly. He didn't look at it after complaints were raised and say it was perfectly acceptable. That's a key difference.
Sure. We all know that as soon as these things are deleted no more is said about them.
If the statue of liberty image had been deleted and apologised for that would be very different to being complained about and deemed to be acceptable don't you think?
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
What did the leader's office say about it, then? Didn't it just turn a blind eye?
Ministers just keep expecting the EU to throw them a bone on the basis that the EU doesn't want no deal either. They don't seem to recognise that the EU can see parliament will almost certainly do something (what is not yet clear) to avoid no deal, and that since that might well end up being remaining, they have no reason to throw us a bone. Especially when Labour and the ERG, for the most part, are clear no bone will be good enough, for different reasons.
If the statue of liberty image had been deleted and apologised for that would be very different to being complained about and deemed to be acceptable don't you think?
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
What did the leader's office say about it, then? Didn't it just turn a blind eye?
Which one do you mean? The one apologised for and called wrong, or the one called perfectly acceptable?
I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive. I think the Labour leadership agreed the Jewish face-hugger alien image was acceptable.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
It would depend whether or not it was amusing.
Sure - because we all know Islamophobia is fine provided it's "amusing".
In fact, it's fine anyway, isn't it?
You need to acquire a sense of humour.
Fine. I'll work on it. I'll try really hard to find Muslims being buggered by pigs amusing.
To be honest, I've always been a bit worried that I don't find Muslims being buggered by pigs amusing. I think I may be abnormal for that reason.
Ministers just keep expecting the EU to throw them a bone on the basis that the EU doesn't want no deal either. They don't seem to recognise that the EU can see parliament will almost certainly do something (what is not yet clear) to avoid no deal, and that since that might well end up being remaining, they have no reason to throw us a bone. Especially when Labour and the ERG, for the most part, are clear no bone will be good enough, for different reasons.
Who does this unnamed Brexiteer mean by 'we' and what does losing mean? Because surely the most exuberant Brexiteers think losing means the deal passing?
So is the PB consensus if Brexit gets delayed for more than 3 months then Brexit will never happen?
Brexit will not happen. Well done - you won. We were offered a vote, but well, most MPs had no real intention of honouring it. Remain kicked and screamed and sulked and sabotaged, and, well, looks like we're stuck in the EU now.
I can't really be arsed voting again.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
The more charitable explanation as advanced by some on here is that the deal is not really leaving (though I find that argument very weak) or of course that no deal is better than a crap deal - but I have been surprised how many really do seem to believe that no brexit is better than a bad brexit.
No Brexit means that the ERG, Farage etc can retreat to their comfort zone and spend the rest of their lives ranting about betrayal and treachery. A bad Brexit means they have to spend the rest of their lives trying the explain why the fantasy world they promised has not materialised.
I would still rather see the ERG, Farage retreating to their comfort zone and spending the rest of their lives ranting about betrayal and treachery, if it means the UK remains.
Ministers just keep expecting the EU to throw them a bone on the basis that the EU doesn't want no deal either. They don't seem to recognise that the EU can see parliament will almost certainly do something (what is not yet clear) to avoid no deal, and that since that might well end up being remaining, they have no reason to throw us a bone. Especially when Labour and the ERG, for the most part, are clear no bone will be good enough, for different reasons.
Fine. I'll work on it. I'll try really hard to find Muslims being buggered by pigs amusing.
To be honest, I've always been a bit worried that I don't find Muslims being buggered by pigs amusing. I think I may be abnormal for that reason.
That's fine, you're in good company. You're in the same company as Fabricant as far as that is concerned. He agrees with you that it was offensive and not funny.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
So does everyone agree that because he is still a Tory MP, Theresa May is obviously a big Islamophobe and is facilitating Islamophobia in the Tory party?
It depends whether or not the cartoon was funny. We all had a laugh about David Cameron's encounter with a pig.
Oh right. When it's Islamophobia, it's OK if it's funny. Yes.
Well, who in their right mind wouldn't be amused by the thought of a Muslim being buggered by a pig? Of course.
If you can't laugh about a politician being buggered by a pig (or some other well-endowed animal) what can you laugh about?
Yeah, sure. If a Labour MP had endorsed an image of a Jewish politician being buggered by a pig the laughter would have been deafening.
We've already had some outrage tonight because Michael Howard was depicted trying to hypnotise people by swinging a pocket watch, just like Shylock does in the Merchant of Venice.
I'm sure you were deeply offended by all the Cameron pig-f*cker jokes.
Oh right. You think it wasn't Islamophobic because depicting a Muslim being buggered by a pig was a purely random choice of animal. It might just as well have been an octopus or an okapi?
Would you be happier if it had been an amorous octopus?
Would you be bothering to defend it, I wonder, if it hadn't shown a Muslim being buggered by a pig?
It would depend whether or not it was amusing.
Sure - because we all know Islamophobia is fine provided it's "amusing".
In fact, it's fine anyway, isn't it?
You need to acquire a sense of humour.
Fine. I'll work on it. I'll try really hard to find Muslims being buggered by pigs amusing.
To be honest, I've always been a bit worried that I don't find Muslims being buggered by pigs amusing. I think I may be abnormal for that reason.
If the statue of liberty image had been deleted and apologised for that would be very different to being complained about and deemed to be acceptable don't you think?
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
What did the leader's office say about it, then? Didn't it just turn a blind eye?
Which one do you mean? The one apologised for and called wrong, or the one called perfectly acceptable?
I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive.
Do you have a quote? Because I don't think Theresa May said a blind thing about it, and I think that makes her a facilitator of Islamophobia.
Ministers just keep expecting the EU to throw them a bone on the basis that the EU doesn't want no deal either. They don't seem to recognise that the EU can see parliament will almost certainly do something (what is not yet clear) to avoid no deal, and that since that might well end up being remaining, they have no reason to throw us a bone. Especially when Labour and the ERG, for the most part, are clear no bone will be good enough, for different reasons.
Precisely. The saboteurs have won.
And I was hoping for a good crushing
Well yes this is 100% May's fault.
There's an old saying that if you strike at the king you must kill him. Parliament is equivalent, May struck at the saboteurs and she missed. Now the saboteurs have the numbers and have struck back. All due to May's incompetence.
If we are going to remain so be it. If we ever vote to leave again it won't be someone as shit as May and her cabinet like Fox and Grayling dealing with Brexit v2.0
Ministers just keep expecting the EU to throw them a bone on the basis that the EU doesn't want no deal either. They don't seem to recognise that the EU can see parliament will almost certainly do something (what is not yet clear) to avoid no deal, and that since that might well end up being remaining, they have no reason to throw us a bone. Especially when Labour and the ERG, for the most part, are clear no bone will be good enough, for different reasons.
Precisely. The saboteurs have won.
I just wish MPs would accept that and then make a damn call already. You at least are clear what option you think we should take now.
Ministers just keep expecting the EU to throw them a bone on the basis that the EU doesn't want no deal either. They don't seem to recognise that the EU can see parliament will almost certainly do something (what is not yet clear) to avoid no deal, and that since that might well end up being remaining, they have no reason to throw us a bone. Especially when Labour and the ERG, for the most part, are clear no bone will be good enough, for different reasons.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
#rattled
Not rattled, I've said repeatedly here I couldn't care less if we remain instead of this deal. Irritated and bored by the insane unicorn bullshit.
Every standard country in the world can operate its borders without unicorns. So can we.
Britain's border with NI can certainly be operated without unicorns. It can be open, with the same regulatory regime on both sides, or closed, allowing the British side to diverge. There are lots of examples of these two arrangements in the world.
The unicorn part is where you need it be simultaneously open, to avoid restarting The Troubles, and closed, to allow the British to take back control of all the things. This is where if you say, "give us an example of another border that works like this" there doesn't seem to be a convincing answer, suggesting that either unicorns don't exist, or they exist but they're not interested in national border issues.
If the statue of liberty image had been deleted and apologised for that would be very different to being complained about and deemed to be acceptable don't you think?
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
What did the leader's office say about it, then? Didn't it just turn a blind eye?
Which one do you mean? The one apologised for and called wrong, or the one called perfectly acceptable?
I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive.
Do you have a quote? Because I don't think Theresa May said a blind thing about it, and I think that makes her a facilitator of Islamophobia.
I don't think it reached May because it was apologised for and removed before it reached her level. So why should she get involved?
The leaders office got involved in the Labour issue because it wasn't apologised for and it wasn't deleted.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
If the statue of liberty image had been deleted and apologised for that would be very different to being complained about and deemed to be acceptable don't you think?
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
What did the leader's office say about it, then? Didn't it just turn a blind eye?
Which one do you mean? The one apologised for and called wrong, or the one called perfectly acceptable?
I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive.
Do you have a quote? Because I don't think Theresa May said a blind thing about it, and I think that makes her a facilitator of Islamophobia.
I don't think it reached May because it was apologised for and removed before it reached her level. So why should she get involved?
Because only a moment ago you wrote "I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive."
Do you just reflexively type the first lie that comes into your head?
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
It doesn't. It would be a farce to include it in a referendum if, as expected, it is massively defeated again. The only reason there is even a slither of a hope for it is that Remain has to be up against something if we do get a referendum, and despite the massive votes against it I'm sure parliament would rather it go against Remain than no deal.
On the subject of Islamophobia in the Tory party, there was a concerted social media effort during the 2016 leadership campaign to dub Theresa May “Sharia May”, and it looked quite like an external attempt to subvert the process.
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
#rattled
Not rattled, I've said repeatedly here I couldn't care less if we remain instead of this deal. Irritated and bored by the insane unicorn bullshit.
Every standard country in the world can operate its borders without unicorns. So can we.
Britain's border with NI can certainly be operated without unicorns. It can be open, with the same regulatory regime on both sides, or closed, allowing the British side to diverge. There are lots of examples of these two arrangements in the world.
The unicorn part is where you need it be simultaneously open, to avoid restarting The Troubles, and closed, to allow the British to take back control of all the things. This is where if you say, "give us an example of another border that works like this" there doesn't seem to be a convincing answer, suggesting that either unicorns don't exist, or they exist but they're not interested in national border issues.
Neither major party is remotely concerned about acting in the national interest. In other countries this is when coups happen. Obviously, that won’t happen in the UK, but the political class is so degraded it’s hard to see how it ever recovers. What an unbelievable mess it is. And it is only going to get worse. That’s the really frightening bit.
I know we joke about the 'nothing has changed' stuff, but it seriously cannot be normal that literally the same story that ran back in December about there being another meaningful vote being run depending on how big the defeat is, with hopes of it being around by around 100, is being circulated again with the dates changed and a 3 after MV instead of a 2?
I mean, that is bonkers. I know May has no other plan to get something agreed other than playing for time, but for heaven's sake MPs, you are going to be very clear how much you do not want to pass this deal, it cannot be beyond even your wit to realise it is time to pass something else to break the impasse?
I fear 'something else' will be passed on the afternoon of March 29th and a Revoke letter will be couriered to Brussels by helicopter later that evening.
We can't do no deal, so that seems quite likely. Not a very satisfactory outcome for anyone.
Neither major party is remotely concerned about acting in the national interest. In other countries this is when coups happen. Obviously, that won’t happen in the UK, but the political class is so degraded it’s hard to see how it ever recovers. What an unbelievable mess it is. And it is only going to get worse. That’s the really frightening bit.
I know we joke about the 'nothing has changed' stuff, but it seriously cannot be normal that literally the same story that ran back in December about there being another meaningful vote being run depending on how big the defeat is, with hopes of it being around by around 100, is being circulated again with the dates changed and a 3 after MV instead of a 2?
I mean, that is bonkers. I know May has no other plan to get something agreed other than playing for time, but for heaven's sake MPs, you are going to be very clear how much you do not want to pass this deal, it cannot be beyond even your wit to realise it is time to pass something else to break the impasse?
I fear 'something else' will be passed on the afternoon of March 29th and a Revoke letter will be couriered to Brussels by helicopter later that evening.
We can't do no deal, so that seems quite likely. Not a very satisfactory outcome for anyone.
We’ve had many weeks which have been oversold and under-delivered in terms of political drama .
But next week could see a range of options that could lead to a complete meltdown in the Tory party.
The whipping arrangement for no deal and extension is fraught with danger , the only way to reduce the possible drama is a free vote .
The greatest irony of the current impasse is the issue which was totally ignored during the campaign , the border issue is the one that could derail Brexit completely .
What do the DUP do, they hate Mays deal but facilitating a no deal would set in motion a huge backlash in NI .
The Scottish Tory MPs also are mindful of giving the SNP a helping hand and the majority are likely to support ruling out no deal and extending Article 50 .
There’s a lot of moving parts and sub plots so I think the hype for next week may well deliver if you like political drama .
I can’t see May delaying the no deal and extension votes , regardless of the rumours. If she took that course of action then I doubt she’d have a working majority by the end of the week.
Neither major party is remotely concerned about acting in the national interest. In other countries this is when coups happen. Obviously, that won’t happen in the UK, but the political class is so degraded it’s hard to see how it ever recovers. What an unbelievable mess it is. And it is only going to get worse. That’s the really frightening bit.
If the statue of liberty image had been deleted and apologised for that would be very different to being complained about and deemed to be acceptable don't you think?
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
What did the leader's office say about it, then? Didn't it just turn a blind eye?
Which one do you mean? The one apologised for and called wrong, or the one called perfectly acceptable?
I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive.
Do you have a quote? Because I don't think Theresa May said a blind thing about it, and I think that makes her a facilitator of Islamophobia.
I don't think it reached May because it was apologised for and removed before it reached her level. So why should she get involved?
Because only a moment ago you wrote "I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive."
Do you just reflexively type the first lie that comes into your head?
Yes I did write that and it is correct. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
The person who posted it apologised and said it was offensive. The leadership did not intervene to say no it's not offensive it's actually ok (as happened in the Labour example) so what point are you trying to make?
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
#rattled
Not rattled, I've said repeatedly here I couldn't care less if we remain instead of this deal. Irritated and bored by the insane unicorn bullshit.
Every standard country in the world can operate its borders without unicorns. So can we.
Britain's border with NI can certainly be operated without unicorns. It can be open, with the same regulatory regime on both sides, or closed, allowing the British side to diverge. There are lots of examples of these two arrangements in the world.
The unicorn part is where you need it be simultaneously open, to avoid restarting The Troubles, and closed, to allow the British to take back control of all the things. This is where if you say, "give us an example of another border that works like this" there doesn't seem to be a convincing answer, suggesting that either unicorns don't exist, or they exist but they're not interested in national border issues.
So its closed. In as much as any other nations is closed. And we work cooperatively to minimise any physical evidence of that. Next problem.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
Actually the evidence is Leavers do want the Deal if it is the only alternative to lengthy extension of Article 50 and EUref2 or revoking Brexit which given the makeup of the House of Commons is the likely choice ie Leave with the Deal or risk no Brexit at all.
On first preferences YouGov had 600 constituencies for Remain, 30 for No Deal and 2 for the Deal.
After preferences though Deal beat both Remain and No Deal head to head in 372 constituencies, Remain beat Deal and No Deal head to head in 262 constituencies and 0 backed No Deal
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
Actually the evidence is Leavers do want the Deal if it is the only alternative to lengthy extension of Article 50 and EUref2 or revoking Brexit which given the makeup of the House of Commons is the likely choice ie Leave with the Deal or risk no Brexit at all
Brexit can happen next week, if the ERG unicorn hunt was called off. But they don't really want to leave, because what would they do with their rest of their lives?
Leaving properly and trading with your neighbours isn't a unicorn what happens the rest of the world over. The rest of the f***ing world finds a way to exist, why can't we?
#rattled
Not rattled, I've said repeatedly here I couldn't care less if we remain instead of this deal. Irritated and bored by the insane unicorn bullshit.
Every standard country in the world can operate its borders without unicorns. So can we.
Britain's border with NI can certainly be operated without unicorns. It can be open, with the same regulatory regime on both sides, or closed, allowing the British side to diverge. There are lots of examples of these two arrangements in the world.
The unicorn part is where you need it be simultaneously open, to avoid restarting The Troubles, and closed, to allow the British to take back control of all the things. This is where if you say, "give us an example of another border that works like this" there doesn't seem to be a convincing answer, suggesting that either unicorns don't exist, or they exist but they're not interested in national border issues.
So its closed. In as much as any other nations is closed. And we work cooperatively to minimise any physical evidence of that. Next problem.
The next problem is that the majority of the people living there don’t want it and won’t cooperate with it.
So its closed. In as much as any other nations is closed. And we work cooperatively to minimise any physical evidence of that. Next problem.
The next problem is that the majority of the people living there don’t want it and won’t cooperate with it.
OK.
Do the majority of the population want the fact the laws on abortion are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that? I don't recall much uproar against Ireland diverging from Norn on that, do you?
Do the majority of the population want the fact corporation tax rates are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact VAT tax rates are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact income tax rates are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact duties are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact welfare is different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact that currency is different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact road signs are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
The border exists already without being an hysterical crisis.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
Actually the evidence is Leavers do want the Deal if it is the only alternative to lengthy extension of Article 50 and EUref2 or revoking Brexit which given the makeup of the House of Commons is the likely choice ie Leave with the Deal or risk no Brexit at all
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
Actually the evidence is Leavers do want the Deal if it is the only alternative to lengthy extension of Article 50 and EUref2 or revoking Brexit which given the makeup of the House of Commons is the likely choice ie Leave with the Deal or risk no Brexit at all.
On first preferences YouGov had 600 constituencies for Remain, 30 for No Deal and 2 for the Deal.
After preferences though Deal beat both Remain and No Deal head to head in 372 constituencies, Remain beat Deal and No Deal head to head in 262 constituencies and 0 backed No Deal
Aside from the polling now being quite old, I don't get how that order of preferences over Remain / No Deal gets you to those conclusions about extending Article 50 or having another referendum. The main thing the Leave enthusiasts are complaining about is quite long-term (locked into the backstop forever) so it would be totally rational to support an extension over taking that deal, and depending on the referendum questions that might be a good option for them too.
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
Actually the evidence is Leavers do want the Deal if it is the only alternative to lengthy extension of Article 50 and EUref2 or revoking Brexit which given the makeup of the House of Commons is the likely choice ie Leave with the Deal or risk no Brexit at all
Well at least they're not foolishly thinking they can get it through at least. Will they please just give up on the deal already (or at least, give up on it in anything other than approval via a referendum). It's not a pleasant or edifying spectacle seeing the government, half of which doesn't really seem to like the deal anyway given the lukewarm effort they put in on it, keep flogging this dead horse.
I cannot see the objection from May's point of view in saying to the HoC: 'approve the deal subject to a confirmatory referendum then' if she can't get it passed as it stands next week.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
The very real possibility that we will not leave at all if the deal is subject to a referendum. But quite frankly it has seemed the only chance at all the deal has had for months now, and she'd probably have had more justification for insisting the deal be included in such a vote before parliament rejects it twice.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
Why does the deal deserve a third chance?
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
Actually the evidence is Leavers do want the Deal if it is the only alternative to lengthy extension of Article 50 and EUref2 or revoking Brexit which given the makeup of the House of Commons is the likely choice ie Leave with the Deal or risk no Brexit at all.
On first preferences YouGov had 600 constituencies for Remain, 30 for No Deal and 2 for the Deal.
After preferences though Deal beat both Remain and No Deal head to head in 372 constituencies, Remain beat Deal and No Deal head to head in 262 constituencies and 0 backed No Deal
Aside from the polling now being quite old, I don't get how that order of preferences over Remain / No Deal gets you to those conclusions about extending Article 50 or having another referendum. The main thing the Leave enthusiasts are complaining about is quite long-term (locked into the backstop forever) so it would be totally rational to support an extension over taking that deal, and depending on the referendum questions that might be a good option for them too.
Given the only referendum the Commons would countenance would be Remain v Leave with Deal no it would not
Given the only referendum the Commons would countenance would be Remain v Leave with Deal no it would not
I agree that's the most likely thing for parliament to pass but if we're looking at the hypothetical "what could the factions do apart from their current thing", you could see a referendum with No Deal on the ballot going through if the Tory Leavers got behind it.
Given the only referendum the Commons would countenance would be Remain v Leave with Deal no it would not
I agree that's the most likely thing for parliament to pass but if we're looking at the hypothetical "what could the factions do apart from their current thing", you could see a referendum with No Deal on the ballot going through if the Tory Leavers got behind it.
From a more cynical POV some might want it on the ballot but defeated (brave call) so they can shut down those who would complain that victory was snatched from the people or some other kind of democratic betrayal.
Given the only referendum the Commons would countenance would be Remain v Leave with Deal no it would not
I agree that's the most likely thing for parliament to pass but if we're looking at the hypothetical "what could the factions do apart from their current thing", you could see a referendum with No Deal on the ballot going through if the Tory Leavers got behind it.
From a more cynical POV some might want it on the ballot but defeated (brave call) so they can shut down those who would complain that victory was snatched from the people or some other kind of democratic betrayal.
Exactly. There's that, plus actually helping get it passed, which is by no means a sure thing against majority Tory opposition.
There are also tactical considerations like whether it would be helpful to Remain to have different Leave factions at each others' throats, but it's complicated.
I know we joke about the 'nothing has changed' stuff, but it seriously cannot be normal that literally the same story that ran back in December about there being another meaningful vote being run depending on how big the defeat is, with hopes of it being around by around 100, is being circulated again with the dates changed and a 3 after MV instead of a 2?
I mean, that is bonkers. I know May has no other plan to get something agreed other than playing for time, but for heaven's sake MPs, you are going to be very clear how much you do not want to pass this deal, it cannot be beyond even your wit to realise it is time to pass something else to break the impasse?
I fear 'something else' will be passed on the afternoon of March 29th and a Revoke letter will be couriered to Brussels by helicopter later that evening.
We can't do no deal, so that seems quite likely. Not a very satisfactory outcome for anyone.
Wrong. It is for me and I guess about 16m others.
If you look at the Leavers on here, I think around 60% - including such luminaries as Sean_F, MaxPB, Richard_Tyndall and myself - are in favour of the Deal.
This isn't to say that we think it was optimal outcome from 2016. But it's probably the optimal outcome from here.
I know we joke about the 'nothing has changed' stuff, but it seriously cannot be normal that literally the same story that ran back in December about there being another meaningful vote being run depending on how big the defeat is, with hopes of it being around by around 100, is being circulated again with the dates changed and a 3 after MV instead of a 2?
I mean, that is bonkers. I know May has no other plan to get something agreed other than playing for time, but for heaven's sake MPs, you are going to be very clear how much you do not want to pass this deal, it cannot be beyond even your wit to realise it is time to pass something else to break the impasse?
I fear 'something else' will be passed on the afternoon of March 29th and a Revoke letter will be couriered to Brussels by helicopter later that evening.
We can't do no deal, so that seems quite likely. Not a very satisfactory outcome for anyone.
Wrong. It is for me and I guess about 16m others.
If you look at the Leavers on here, I think around 60% - including such luminaries as Sean_F, MaxPB, Richard_Tyndall and myself - are in favour of the Deal.
This isn't to say that we think it was optimal outcome from 2016. But it's probably the optimal outcome from here.
This is true, although trying to put the point non-snarkily, this would correlate with being well-informed, and you guys are out there on one end of that spectrum in a place that may be quite distant from the majority of Leave voters.
I know we joke about the 'nothing has changed' stuff, but it seriously cannot be normal that literally the same story that ran back in December about there being another meaningful vote being run depending on how big the defeat is, with hopes of it being around by around 100, is being circulated again with the dates changed and a 3 after MV instead of a 2?
I mean, that is bonkers. I know May has no other plan to get something agreed other than playing for time, but for heaven's sake MPs, you are going to be very clear how much you do not want to pass this deal, it cannot be beyond even your wit to realise it is time to pass something else to break the impasse?
I fear 'something else' will be passed on the afternoon of March 29th and a Revoke letter will be couriered to Brussels by helicopter later that evening.
We can't do no deal, so that seems quite likely. Not a very satisfactory outcome for anyone.
Wrong. It is for me and I guess about 16m others.
If you look at the Leavers on here, I think around 60% - including such luminaries as Sean_F, MaxPB, Richard_Tyndall and myself - are in favour of the Deal.
This isn't to say that we think it was optimal outcome from 2016. But it's probably the optimal outcome from here.
This is true, although trying to put the point non-snarkily, this would correlate with being well-informed, and you guys are out there on one end of that spectrum in a place that may be quite distant from the majority of Leave voters.
Some Leavers here who ought to be in that category who are against the deal.
Scathing letter to The @Telegraph from former Head of MI6 Sir Richard Dearlove and many senior academics. "The Withdrawal Agreement is disastrous. It ties us to European Union rules without any say in drawing them up or any possibility of independent arbitration."
The thing about this objection is that it doesn't just apply to the Withdrawal Agreement and the backstop, it also applies to any plausible outcome of the future trade negotiations.
You can see why the EU side is so keen to nail down their essential interests in the WA rather than letting them get punted to the next two years. If the British Parliament can't pass this, the next thing is going to be hopeless.
I know we joke about the 'nothing has changed' stuff, but it seriously cannot be normal that literally the same story that ran back in December about there being another meaningful vote being run depending on how big the defeat is, with hopes of it being around by around 100, is being circulated again with the dates changed and a 3 after MV instead of a 2?
I mean, that is bonkers. I know May has no other plan to get something agreed other than playing for time, but for heaven's sake MPs, you are going to be very clear how much you do not want to pass this deal, it cannot be beyond even your wit to realise it is time to pass something else to break the impasse?
I fear 'something else' will be passed on the afternoon of March 29th and a Revoke letter will be couriered to Brussels by helicopter later that evening.
We can't do no deal, so that seems quite likely. Not a very satisfactory outcome for anyone.
Wrong. It is for me and I guess about 16m others.
If you look at the Leavers on here, I think around 60% - including such luminaries as Sean_F, MaxPB, Richard_Tyndall and myself - are in favour of the Deal.
This isn't to say that we think it was optimal outcome from 2016. But it's probably the optimal outcome from here.
This is true, although trying to put the point non-snarkily, this would correlate with being well-informed, and you guys are out there on one end of that spectrum in a place that may be quite distant from the majority of Leave voters.
Some Leavers here who ought to be in that category who are against the deal.
Comments
Plus, as a bonus, Farage not only gets to keep MEP salary as leader of The Brexit Party, but also gets to play with a load of other populist nationalists in Brussels for another five years.
It seems the obvious way out for her.
What am I missing?
No doubt it was a six-pointed star just by pure chance. Might as well have been an equilateral triangle or a parallelogram.
Night all.
Believable? I don't know. But he apologised and deleted it quickly. He didn't look at it after complaints were raised and say it was perfectly acceptable. That's a key difference.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/06/trump-asked-advisors-whether-he-should-worry-about-facing-joe-biden-in-2020.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/06/brexit-deal-will-defeated-100-votes-ministers-believe-talks/
... in order to distract from something investigated, cleared and deemed by Labour to be officially acceptable.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47471469
The latest bid in the fierce competition for the title of stupidest cabinet minister.
Every standard country in the world can operate its borders without unicorns. So can we.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47462193
TBF it seemed like a reasonable idea.
Had Fabricant stood by that cartoon, then people complained, then the Tories investigated and the leader's office intervened to say the cartoon was acceptable . . . you don't think that'd be remotely different to what happened?
Only in comparison with Labour is it more or less holding things together.
In fact, it's fine anyway, isn't it?
The fact you can't tell the difference between "this is wrong" and "this is OK" says more about you than the races involved.
MV9 should be a win.
I think the Tories leadership agreed the pig image was wrong and offensive.
I think the Labour leadership agreed the Jewish face-hugger alien image was acceptable.
To be honest, I've always been a bit worried that I don't find Muslims being buggered by pigs amusing. I think I may be abnormal for that reason.
Send Corbyn to the EU, see what he can come up with - we're not getting Brexit unless Labour are on board.
There's an old saying that if you strike at the king you must kill him. Parliament is equivalent, May struck at the saboteurs and she missed. Now the saboteurs have the numbers and have struck back. All due to May's incompetence.
If we are going to remain so be it. If we ever vote to leave again it won't be someone as shit as May and her cabinet like Fox and Grayling dealing with Brexit v2.0
The unicorn part is where you need it be simultaneously open, to avoid restarting The Troubles, and closed, to allow the British to take back control of all the things. This is where if you say, "give us an example of another border that works like this" there doesn't seem to be a convincing answer, suggesting that either unicorns don't exist, or they exist but they're not interested in national border issues.
The leaders office got involved in the Labour issue because it wasn't apologised for and it wasn't deleted.
Remainers don't want it. Leavers don't want it. Kill it now.
Do you just reflexively type the first lie that comes into your head?
[edit: remove crosspost]
I mean, if Tracey Emin...
#optics
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/equalities-and-human-rights-commission-investigates-labour-antisemitism-1.481078
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNqNx_XK0dQ
But next week could see a range of options that could lead to a complete meltdown in the Tory party.
The whipping arrangement for no deal and extension is fraught with danger , the only way to reduce the possible drama is a free vote .
The greatest irony of the current impasse is the issue which was totally ignored during the campaign , the border issue is the one that could derail Brexit completely .
What do the DUP do, they hate Mays deal but facilitating a no deal would set in motion a huge backlash in NI .
The Scottish Tory MPs also are mindful of giving the SNP a helping hand and the majority are likely to support ruling out no deal and extending Article 50 .
There’s a lot of moving parts and sub plots so I think the hype for next week may well deliver if you like political drama .
I can’t see May delaying the no deal and extension votes , regardless of the rumours. If she took that course of action then I doubt she’d have a working majority by the end of the week.
The person who posted it apologised and said it was offensive. The leadership did not intervene to say no it's not offensive it's actually ok (as happened in the Labour example) so what point are you trying to make?
On first preferences YouGov had 600 constituencies for Remain, 30 for No Deal and 2 for the Deal.
After preferences though Deal beat both Remain and No Deal head to head in 372 constituencies, Remain beat Deal and No Deal head to head in 262 constituencies and 0 backed No Deal
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-
Do the majority of the population want the fact the laws on abortion are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that? I don't recall much uproar against Ireland diverging from Norn on that, do you?
Do the majority of the population want the fact corporation tax rates are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact VAT tax rates are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact income tax rates are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact duties are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact welfare is different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact that currency is different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
Do the majority of the population want the fact road signs are different in both nations? Do they co-operate on that?
The border exists already without being an hysterical crisis.
If Tweeting drivel does get you elected, though, I expect one of the Kardashians to run soon...
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-
There are also tactical considerations like whether it would be helpful to Remain to have different Leave factions at each others' throats, but it's complicated.
This isn't to say that we think it was optimal outcome from 2016. But it's probably the optimal outcome from here.
https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1103234124754624512?s=21
You can see why the EU side is so keen to nail down their essential interests in the WA rather than letting them get punted to the next two years. If the British Parliament can't pass this, the next thing is going to be hopeless.
https://twitter.com/IzaTabaro/status/1103138748752150529
http://www.chartsme.com
I came out as 75% Democrat.