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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Next step for Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya – facing a recall

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Comments

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Top excuses that aren't Brexit?

    Diesel.
    They wuz going to do it anyway.
    EU-Japan free trade deal.
    Global uncertainty.

    Any more?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102965059611955200

    .
    More nothing to do with Brexit news.

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1102921190526590977?s=21
    and hows that different to when PSA closed their factory in Coventry and transferred all the production to Slovakia in 2006 ?
    We'll have to give you that that wasn't anything to do with Brexit. But why do you bring it up?
    t.
    Factory closures are a normal part of business life. It's a competitive world. The point about Brexit is it makes us less competitive, so factory closures will result. And are doing.
    This self evident truth is hotly denied by Mr Alanbrooke who spends all his time complaining about the decline of manufacturing while supporting a policy that fucks manufacturing.
    the policies that facked manufacturing have been in place for the last 20 years, Brexit is simply one of the consequences.
    Ironically, I agree with you.
    Just disagree vigorously that Brexit is gonna help.

    In fact, I see little from either Leave OR Remain on any practical thinking post-Brexit to address the long neglect of manufacturing in this country.
    Short term Brexit isnt going to help, thats no need to do,
    Even if we dispense with manual labour altogether, manufacturing will still be influenced by economies of scale. So if we are outside the biggest and richest single market in the world rather than inside it we are going to be less competitive.
    No manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.
    Well that at least is a good argument, which is rare on the leave side. But it still isn't true. A batch size of one doesn't remove the need for economies of scale thanks to having a large market. If you are producing a specialised product in small quantities then there will be relatively few customers for it. So you want to be in a position to find a lot of them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Disappointing news from Nissan. MPs need to get on and sign the WA.

    Mps aren't going to sign it - that's been obvious for a while. May needs (at a minimum) more Labour rebels than ERG members who still vote against and there isn't going to be enough of those.
    It's as it has been for a long time - no deal or revoke. If pushing it right to the March deadline isn't enough to scare enough Lab rebels or ERG to back the deal then nothing is going to.
    Wouldn't it be Delay? May's style is to kick the can down the road whenever she can, and it's likely the EU would accept that rather than take the hit of No Deal.
    I am including delay within revoke, since they will certainly not have the balls to revoke before the deadline or without a referendum. So delay becomes referendum which becomes revoke.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,277
    Simultaneously appropriate, and top trolling....

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/05/house-intelligence-daniel-goldman-1204140
    House Intel hires former Russian mob prosecutor to lead Trump probes
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_P said:
    as ever no context

    inter Irish trade is less than the turnover of Nissan Sunderland
    But since both are threatened by Brexit does it matter which is largest?
    You might as well say both are threatened by the Yellowstone Caldera. Its true but why bother quantifying,

    The incessant remainer need to bang on about one in a series of risks any business faces is just silly. It puts nothing in context and is therefore ultimately meaningless, background noise.

    Remain would do itrself no end of favours by actually making a reasoned case on pros and cones instead of endless bilge.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_P said:
    as ever no context

    inter Irish trade is less than the turnover of Nissan Sunderland
    My turnover is probably less than the Nissan canteen's. But it is still quite important to me.
    Absolutely

    in a nutshell thats why a lot of people voted to Leave
    To put themselves out of business?
    they already were out of business and had little propsect of getting back in to it. Thats the bit you missed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Suspect we'll be getting a lot of 'X thinking of leaving, Watson convinces them to stay' stories in the coming month.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138

    Further proof of Project Fear becoming Project Reality.

    Big hugs for all those who had already pinned this on the Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102993361345171456

    Are you saying there are no muslims in Ireland ?
    Last time I was in Belfast I think I doubled the number of Muslims in Ireland.

    The natives kept on staring at me.

    I don't think they were paying attention to my Louis Vuitton loafers.
    The Royal Statistical Society conference is in Belfast in September. I was thinking of staying at the Europa Hotel. My life is weird... :)
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Scott_P said:
    Is she admitting she didn't report something about Nissan because the government denied it?
    Lol. Exactly. She really is a poor journalist, in fact she isn’t even worthy of the title. She couldn’t find a scoop in a digger factory.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    viewcode said:

    Scott_P said:
    as ever no context

    inter Irish trade is less than the turnover of Nissan Sunderland
    An unfortunate comparator given the situation.
    why

    if you were prioritisng issues which would you spend more time on ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,277

    Top excuses that aren't Brexit?

    Diesel.
    They wuz going to do it anyway.
    EU-Japan free trade deal.
    Global uncertainty.

    Any more?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102965059611955200

    .
    More nothing to do with Brexit news.

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1102921190526590977?s=21
    and hows that different to when PSA closed their factory in Coventry and transferred all the production to Slovakia in 2006 ?
    We'll have to give you that that wasn't anything to do with Brexit. But why do you bring it up?
    I bring it up because factory closures in automotive downturns are the norm and because factory closures have been the nrom when in the EU. Those yelliing loudest are the same people who told people in the Midlands and North to suck it up and then got sulky when large swathes of the industrial belt voted out.
    Factory closures are a normal part of business life. It's a competitive world. The point about Brexit is it makes us less competitive, so factory closures will result. And are doing.
    This self evident truth is hotly denied by Mr Alanbrooke who spends all his time complaining about the decline of manufacturing while supporting a policy that fucks manufacturing.
    the policies that facked manufacturing have been in place for the last 20 years, Brexit is simply one of the consequences.
    Ironically, I agree with you.
    Just disagree vigorously that Brexit is gonna help.

    In fact, I see little from either Leave OR Remain on any practical thinking post-Brexit to address the long neglect of manufacturing in this country.
    Short term Brexit isnt going to help, thats no need to do,
    Even if we dispense with manual labour altogether, manufacturing will still be influenced by economies of scale. So if we are outside the biggest and richest single market in the world rather than inside it we are going to be less competitive.
    No manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm...
    Some of it.
    Most of it, very probably not.

  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    AndyJS said:

    agingjb said:

    The analogy between Crosby and Peterborough, if it is intended to be an analogy between the SDP and the TIG, breaks down because there is no Shirley Williams figure, a supporter of the TIG who is a well known former MP. Or is there?

    It breaks down because Peterborough doesn't have large numbers of voters who would be receptive to an SDP-type party, whereas Crosby did.
    Winning in Peterborough depends on the Ethnic minority groups - who will vote how their leaders tell them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited March 2019
    nico67 said:

    Will be interesting to see how the DUP vote on the no deal motion .

    If they support a no deal then that confirms they don’t give a toss for the people in NI .

    I'm surprised you feel you need confirmation.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Top excuses that aren't Brexit?

    Diesel.
    They wuz going to do it anyway.
    EU-Japan free trade deal.
    Global uncertainty.

    Any more?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102965059611955200

    .
    More nothing to do with Brexit news.

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1102921190526590977?s=21
    and hows that different to when PSA closed their factory in Coventry and transferred all the production to Slovakia in 2006 ?
    We'll have to give you that that wasn't anything to do with Brexit. But why do you bring it up?
    t.
    Factory closures are a normal part of business life. It's a c result. And are doing.
    This self evident truth is hotly denied by Mr Alanbrooke who spends all his time complaining about the decline of manufacturing while supporting a policy that fucks manufacturing.
    the policies that facked manufacturing have been in place for the last 20 years, Brexit is simply one of the consequences.
    Ironically, I agree with you.
    Just disagree vigorously that Brexit is gonna help.

    In fact, I see little from either Leave OR Remain on any practical thinking post-Brexit to address the long neglect of manufacturing in this country.
    Short term Brexit isnt going to help, thats no need to do,
    Even if we dispense with manual labour altos competitive.
    No manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.
    Well that at least is a good argument, which is rare on the leave side. But it still isn't true. A batch size of one doesn't remove the need for economies of scale thanks to having a large market. If you are producing a specialised product in small quantities then there will be relatively few customers for it. So you want to be in a position to find a lot of them.
    theres this thing called the internet which matches buyers and sellers

    if you want to wait a while you can buy a 3D printer and make complex stuff at home without the bother of buying
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,277
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the allegations against Trudeau are any more than made against Trump
    Breaking news - if they're as bad as the allegations against Trump, he should not resign, he should be fired from Morris Dancer's space cannon.

    While eating a pineapple pizza.
    And in any event, he got elected as the antithesis of Trump, so he can hardly complain of his predicament.

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    On a betting note, if anyone has an account with BetBright - you've got 30 days to withdraw your funds otherwise... er... well not entirely clear, but definitely sounds best to get your money out!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Top excuses that aren't Brexit?

    Diesel.
    They wuz going to do it anyway.
    EU-Japan free trade deal.
    Global uncertainty.

    Any more?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102965059611955200

    .
    More nothing to do with Brexit news.

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1102921190526590977?s=21
    and hows that different to when PSA closed their factory in Coventry and transferred all the production to Slovakia in 2006 ?
    We'll have to give you that that wasn't anything to do with Brexit. But why do you bring it up?
    t.
    F.
    This self evident truth is hotly denied by Mr Alanbrooke who spends all his time complaining about the decline of manufacturing while supporting a policy that fucks manufacturing.
    the policies that facked manufacturing have been in place for the last 20 years, Brexit is simply one of the consequences.
    Ironically, I agree with you.
    Just disagree vigorously that Brexit is gonna help.

    In fact, I see little from either Leave OR Remain on any practical thinking post-Brexit to address the long neglect of manufacturing in this country.
    Short term Brexit isnt going to help, thats no need to do,
    Even if we dispense with manual labour altos competitive.
    No manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.
    Well that at least is a good argument, which is rare on the leave side. But it still isn't true. A batch size of one doesn't remove the need for economies of scale thanks to having a large market. If you are producing a specialised product in small quantities then there will be relatively few customers for it. So you want to be in a position to find a lot of them.
    theres this thing called the internet which matches buyers and sellers

    if you want to wait a while you can buy a 3D printer and make complex stuff at home without the bother of buying
    Cars?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws-_syszg84
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    ydoethur said:

    nico67 said:

    Will be interesting to see how the DUP vote on the no deal motion .

    If they support a no deal then that confirms they don’t give a toss for the people in NI .

    I'm surprised you feel you need confirmation.
    I don’t I was trying to be polite !

    IMO the DUP are a bunch of bigoted nutjobs who deserve a United Ireland for disgracefully supporting Leave knowing it could cause huge problems . I despise them .
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    viewcode said:

    Further proof of Project Fear becoming Project Reality.

    Big hugs for all those who had already pinned this on the Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102993361345171456

    Are you saying there are no muslims in Ireland ?
    Last time I was in Belfast I think I doubled the number of Muslims in Ireland.

    The natives kept on staring at me.

    I don't think they were paying attention to my Louis Vuitton loafers.
    The Royal Statistical Society conference is in Belfast in September. I was thinking of staying at the Europa Hotel. My life is weird... :)
    I can imagine the marketing emails.

    “On the balance of probabilities, our conference will take place on 18-19 September”
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    edited March 2019
    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Disappointing news from Nissan. MPs need to get on and sign the WA.

    Mps aren't going to sign it - that's been obvious for a while. May needs (at a minimum) more Labour rebels than ERG members who still vote against and there isn't going to be enough of those.
    It's as it has been for a long time - no deal or revoke. If pushing it right to the March deadline isn't enough to scare enough Lab rebels or ERG to back the deal then nothing is going to.
    No, Deal or extension and EUref2 revoke, No Deal has fewer MPs backing it than either of those
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Rachel Riley for Peterborough Tigger PPC?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    _Anazina_ said:

    Rachel Riley for Peterborough Tigger PPC?

    Lol.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    viewcode said:

    Further proof of Project Fear becoming Project Reality.

    Big hugs for all those who had already pinned this on the Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102993361345171456

    Are you saying there are no muslims in Ireland ?
    Last time I was in Belfast I think I doubled the number of Muslims in Ireland.

    The natives kept on staring at me.

    I don't think they were paying attention to my Louis Vuitton loafers.
    The Royal Statistical Society conference is in Belfast in September. I was thinking of staying at the Europa Hotel. My life is weird... :)
    The Europa is fine but I prefer the Fitzwilliam.

    The pension lawyers’ conference was in Belfast last November.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    nico67 said:

    Brexit isn’t the only issue facing car makers but it can turn a viable operation into a non viable one .

    Much depends on the future trading relationship but given the long lead times for investment decisions having to be made now can’t rely on hope versus reality .

    That’s it. All these carmakers need gigantic cash injections to electrify their fleets. Since we are presenting ourselves as the damp, racist island of “fuck business” who would choose to do that here?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the allegations against Trudeau are any more than made against Trump and even if he did act wrongly the actions were to save thousands of jobs
    Would it be ok to act wrongly to save merely hundreds of jobs? How wrong is it ok to be to save hundreds of thousands of jobs?

    Certainly we are generally content to look the other way in working with horrible people and places, possibly with plenty of bribery, for the sake of jobs, but given you are very explicit that it is ok to act wrongly for that reason, I do think we should know just how wrong it is ok to be for how much.
    I did not say it was OK but a PM has to consider the jobs of those who elected him, that is also their job
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    Fenman said:

    AndyJS said:

    agingjb said:

    The analogy between Crosby and Peterborough, if it is intended to be an analogy between the SDP and the TIG, breaks down because there is no Shirley Williams figure, a supporter of the TIG who is a well known former MP. Or is there?

    It breaks down because Peterborough doesn't have large numbers of voters who would be receptive to an SDP-type party, whereas Crosby did.
    Winning in Peterborough depends on the Ethnic minority groups - who will vote how their leaders tell them.
    Peterborough is mostly new town - it's more receptive to a new party than its location in Fenland might suggest.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Top excuses that aren't Brexit?

    Diesel.
    They wuz going to do it anyway.
    EU-Japan free trade deal.
    Global uncertainty.

    Any more?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102965059611955200

    .
    More nothing to do with Brexit news.

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1102921190526590977?s=21
    and hows that different to when PSA closed their factory in Coventry and transferred all the production to Slovakia in 2006 ?
    We'll have to give you that that wasn't anything to do with Brexit. But why do you bring it up?
    t.
    F.
    This self evident truth is hotly denied by Mr Alanbrooke who spends all his time complaining about the decline of manufacturing while supporting a policy that fucks manufacturing.
    the policies that facked manufacturing have been in place for the last 20 years, Brexit is simply one of the consequences.
    Ironically, I agree with you.
    Just disagree vigorously that Brexit is gonna help.

    In fact, I see little from either Leave OR Remain on any practical thinking post-Brexit to address the long neglect of manufacturing in this country.
    Short term Brexit isnt going to help, thats no need to do,
    Even if we dispense with manual labour altos competitive.
    No manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.
    Well that at least is a good argu find a lot of them.
    theres this thing called the internet which matches buyers and sellers

    if you want to wait a while you can buy a 3D printer and make complex stuff at home without the bother of buying
    Cars?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws-_syszg84
    cars oddly are heading towards being low batch size products given differences in colour, spec and interior it used to be an interval of 250000 before a car plant produced two cars exactly the same. Today Id say thats probably much greater,
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Dadge said:

    Fenman said:

    AndyJS said:

    agingjb said:

    The analogy between Crosby and Peterborough, if it is intended to be an analogy between the SDP and the TIG, breaks down because there is no Shirley Williams figure, a supporter of the TIG who is a well known former MP. Or is there?

    It breaks down because Peterborough doesn't have large numbers of voters who would be receptive to an SDP-type party, whereas Crosby did.
    Winning in Peterborough depends on the Ethnic minority groups - who will vote how their leaders tell them.
    Peterborough is mostly new town - it's more receptive to a new party than its location in Fenland might suggest.
    The new town part is in North West Cambridgeshire constituency, not Peterborough
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Fenman said:

    AndyJS said:

    agingjb said:

    The analogy between Crosby and Peterborough, if it is intended to be an analogy between the SDP and the TIG, breaks down because there is no Shirley Williams figure, a supporter of the TIG who is a well known former MP. Or is there?

    It breaks down because Peterborough doesn't have large numbers of voters who would be receptive to an SDP-type party, whereas Crosby did.
    Winning in Peterborough depends on the Ethnic minority groups - who will vote how their leaders tell them.
    Wrong on every count.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,503
    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the allegations against Trudeau are any more than made against Trump and even if he did act wrongly the actions were to save thousands of jobs
    Would it be ok to act wrongly to save merely hundreds of jobs? How wrong is it ok to be to save hundreds of thousands of jobs?

    Certainly we are generally content to look the other way in working with horrible people and places, possibly with plenty of bribery, for the sake of jobs, but given you are very explicit that it is ok to act wrongly for that reason, I do think we should know just how wrong it is ok to be for how much.
    I did not say it was OK but a PM has to consider the jobs of those who elected him, that is also their job
    You as much as said it was ok, and still are. That's fine, you don't need to be coy about that, but by defending what he allegedly did by pointing to the good he hoped to achieve by it you are in effect saying the end justified the means.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138

    Manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.

    I don't think that model is viable for the UK. It's an NHS-worshipping aging population with a surprisingly large number of people not in work. Retrofitting a high-skill rapid-retraining geographically-flexible workforce onto that will be like putting porn star tits on Maggie Smith: some people will prefer it but most will find it difficult to cope with.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited March 2019
    _Anazina_ said:

    nico67 said:

    Brexit isn’t the only issue facing car makers but it can turn a viable operation into a non viable one .

    Much depends on the future trading relationship but given the long lead times for investment decisions having to be made now can’t rely on hope versus reality .

    That’s it. All these carmakers need gigantic cash injections to electrify their fleets. Since we are presenting ourselves as the damp, racist island of “fuck business” who would choose to do that here?
    Not many that’s for sure . Why would a company invest not knowing what tariffs would be in place , the movement of workers etc.

    Leavers I’m afraid just want to avoid any responsibility for their vote and go into denial .
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Fenman said:

    AndyJS said:

    agingjb said:

    The analogy between Crosby and Peterborough, if it is intended to be an analogy between the SDP and the TIG, breaks down because there is no Shirley Williams figure, a supporter of the TIG who is a well known former MP. Or is there?

    It breaks down because Peterborough doesn't have large numbers of voters who would be receptive to an SDP-type party, whereas Crosby did.
    Winning in Peterborough depends on the Ethnic minority groups - who will vote how their leaders tell them.
    Wrong on every count.
    Actually I've been to a few counts in Peterborough and it's fascinating to see the boxes open with a solid stack of voters for one party all evidently cast in a short period of time
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193

    RoyalBlue said:

    Scott_P said:
    I have complete confidence that any Corbyn government will make May’s premiership look golden by comparison.
    Corbyn - and the small clique around him - actually scare me more than Brexit.
    Lord Renwick, former Ambassador to South Africa and the USA, says Brexit is being handled incompetently but a Corbyn government would 'further the risk of devaluing ourselves seriously. He doesn't want to just leave the EU, he wants to leave NATO too. And also to State-aid policies which I witnessed in the Seventies with catastrophic consequences.'

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/danger-ahead-uk-diplomacy-is-racing-towards-a-cliff-edge-of-its-own-twkdhbk0d
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/05/tories-suspend-14-members-
    Saw this on the BBC news at 6
    Looks like only the Lib Dems do not have a problem.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    viewcode said:

    Manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.

    I don't think that model is viable for the UK. It's an NHS-worshipping aging population with a surprisingly large number of people not in work. Retrofitting a high-skill rapid-retraining geographically-flexible workforce onto that will be like putting porn star tits on Maggie Smith: some people will prefer it but most will find it difficult to cope with.
    we have a younger population than most European countries, we accept immigration to fill skills gaps, we have some of the highest rated universities on the planet. This is about going forward not back. Likewise if we cant face up to employing oider workers then what does that say about the people we are letting run the country.. My children are in their 20s and I expect they wont get to stop work until post 75
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the allegations against Trudeau are any more than made against Trump and even if he did act wrongly the actions were to save thousands of jobs
    Would it be ok to act wrongly to save merely hundreds of jobs? How wrong is it ok to be to save hundreds of thousands of jobs?

    Certainly we are generally content to look the other way in working with horrible people and places, possibly with plenty of bribery, for the sake of jobs, but given you are very explicit that it is ok to act wrongly for that reason, I do think we should know just how wrong it is ok to be for how much.
    I did not say it was OK but a PM has to consider the jobs of those who elected him, that is also their job
    You as much as said it was ok, and still are. That's fine, you don't need to be coy about that, but by defending what he allegedly did by pointing to the good he hoped to achieve by it you are in effect saying the end justified the means.
    So I did not say it was OK no but yes a PM should consider if criminal sanctions were absolutely necessary in this case given they would lead to thousands of jobs losses, that does not mean he should have applied pressure if he did but political gameplaying ignores those whose livelihoods depended on that company
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    edited March 2019

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    I expect he will stick it out, he is the only Canadian PM most of the world has heard of since his father, with the possible exception of Mulroney, it would be a pity for Canada if he went
  • HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the allegations against Trudeau are any more than made against Trump and even if he did act wrongly the actions were to save thousands of jobs
    Would it be ok to act wrongly to save merely hundreds of jobs? How wrong is it ok to be to save hundreds of thousands of jobs?

    Certainly we are generally content to look the other way in working with horrible people and places, possibly with plenty of bribery, for the sake of jobs, but given you are very explicit that it is ok to act wrongly for that reason, I do think we should know just how wrong it is ok to be for how much.
    I did not say it was OK but a PM has to consider the jobs of those who elected him, that is also their job
    Or her !!!!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the allegations against Trudeau are any more than made against Trump and even if he did act wrongly the actions were to save thousands of jobs
    Would it be ok to act wrongly to save merely hundreds of jobs? How wrong is it ok to be to save hundreds of thousands of jobs?

    Certainly we are generally content to look the other way in working with horrible people and places, possibly with plenty of bribery, for the sake of jobs, but given you are very explicit that it is ok to act wrongly for that reason, I do think we should know just how wrong it is ok to be for how much.
    I did not say it was OK but a PM has to consider the jobs of those who elected him, that is also their job
    Or her !!!!
    True
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    The Brexit campaign, and the media frothing thereafter, legitimised a “winner takes all” partisan discourse verging at times on recourse to violence.

    Rhetoric about saboteurs and treachery is not just rhetoric; it has real world consequences.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    edited March 2019

    viewcode said:

    Manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.

    I don't think that model is viable for the UK. It's an NHS-worshipping aging population with a surprisingly large number of people not in work. Retrofitting a high-skill rapid-retraining geographically-flexible workforce onto that will be like putting porn star tits on Maggie Smith: some people will prefer it but most will find it difficult to cope with.
    we have a younger population than most European countries, we accept immigration to fill skills gaps, we have some of the highest rated universities on the planet. This is about going forward not back. Likewise if we cant face up to employing oider workers then what does that say about the people we are letting run the country.. My children are in their 20s and I expect they wont get to stop work until post 75
    Only if life expectancy keeps increasing, last year it stalled

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/life-expectancy-uk-latest-ons-government-healthcare-age-elderly-health-a8553701.html
  • Yorkcity said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/05/tories-suspend-14-members-
    Saw this on the BBC news at 6
    Looks like only the Lib Dems do not have a problem.

    Looks as if Warsi is after Boris.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    not gain, surely.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    If he does resign, would the election be brought forward from later this year?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Yorkcity said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/05/tories-suspend-14-members-
    Saw this on the BBC news at 6
    Looks like only the Lib Dems do not have a problem.

    Looks as if Warsi is after Boris.
    Not that I think Boris's comments regarding burkas were helpful, if the only problem in the Labour Party was people making rude comments about the appearance of Orthodox Jews, then the story wouldn't be very big.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    _Anazina_ said:

    viewcode said:

    Further proof of Project Fear becoming Project Reality.

    Big hugs for all those who had already pinned this on the Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102993361345171456

    Are you saying there are no muslims in Ireland ?
    Last time I was in Belfast I think I doubled the number of Muslims in Ireland.

    The natives kept on staring at me.

    I don't think they were paying attention to my Louis Vuitton loafers.
    The Royal Statistical Society conference is in Belfast in September. I was thinking of staying at the Europa Hotel. My life is weird... :)
    I can imagine the marketing emails.

    “On the balance of probabilities, our conference will take place on 18-19 September”
    There's a pub quiz and a dinner. Not on the same night, obvs.

    The networking is amazing. At the height of the Afghan occupation I was speaking to a Colonel who'd just come back and the Civil Servant who was trying to do a census in a country where women are not allowed to contact people. There have been lectures on domestic violence and how to develop a checklist for A&E staff to detect domestic abuse. Battlefield statistics, surgical statistics, epidemiologists in Ebola hot zones, lepers in India. I've met [redacted because of namedropping] Great fun... :)
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    AndyJS said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    If he does resign, would the election be brought forward from later this year?
    Shouldn't have thought so. The Liberals have a solid enough majority (180 out of 338) in the Canadian Commons and I'm sure they'd want to get their new leader bedded in before going to the country.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited March 2019
    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,730
    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    Violent threats have been made against MPs for voting *for* the deal to deliver Brexit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,277
    _Anazina_ said:

    nico67 said:

    Brexit isn’t the only issue facing car makers but it can turn a viable operation into a non viable one .

    Much depends on the future trading relationship but given the long lead times for investment decisions having to be made now can’t rely on hope versus reality .

    That’s it. All these carmakers need gigantic cash injections to electrify their fleets. Since we are presenting ourselves as the damp, racist island of “fuck business” who would choose to do that here?
    VW alone expects to invest around €45bn in EV manufacturing between now and 2023.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,503
    edited March 2019
    HYUFD said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    I expect he will stick it out, he is the only Canadian PM most of the world has heard of since his father, with the possible exception of Mulroney, it would be a pity for Canada if he went
    Not really. I didn’t like his father and I don’t like him either.

    I think he’s a sanctimonious virtue-signalling pompous hypocrite who drips identity politics and craves mass migration. He’s also a cringeworthy self-obsessed narcissistic national embarrassment.

    I’d vote Scheer without a second thought but I doubt he’ll make it in the Autumn.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,503
    AndyJS said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    If he does resign, would the election be brought forward from later this year?
    Unless Canada has its own FTPA (i haven’t checked) I presume that’d be subject to a VoNC and an early dissolution.

    I couldn’t see that passing given the Liberals majority.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    edited March 2019
    rpjs said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    If he does resign, would the election be brought forward from later this year?
    Shouldn't have thought so. The Liberals have a solid enough majority (180 out of 338) in the Canadian Commons and I'm sure they'd want to get their new leader bedded in before going to the country.
    If the Liberals replace Trudeau they will end up losing their majority and scraping home at best, much as Australian Labor did when it replaced the charismatic Rudd after a rough patch with the dull Gillard. Trudeau remains by far and away the best and most charismatic leader they have, remember it was Trudeau who took them from third place to first and Trudeau who beat Harper who had easily brushed aside Trudeau's predecessors as Liberal leader Ignatieff and Dion and ousted Martin before that
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Well said.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
    Farage doesn't exactly have a stellar record in by-elections though...

    (The Brexit Party itself is also deeply obscure)
    Based on my (very limited) knowledge of the global tariff regime, this sounds rather New Zealand-ish. Not quite unilateral free trade, but not a million miles from it. Mildly encouraging if true.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Does that mean 90% of imports will become cheaper? :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    edited March 2019

    HYUFD said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    I expect he will stick it out, he is the only Canadian PM most of the world has heard of since his father, with the possible exception of Mulroney, it would be a pity for Canada if he went
    Not really. I didn’t like his father and I don’t like him either.

    I think he’s a sanctimonious virtue-signalling pompous hypocrite who drips identity politics and craves mass migration. He’s also a cringeworthy self-obsessed narcissistic national embarrassment.

    I’d vote Scheer without a second thought but I doubt he’ll make it in the Autumn.
    Liking someone has nothing whatsoever to do with a PM being well known, many Brits hated Thatcher and Blair but both saw Britain punch above its weight thanks to their star power.

    Scheer is dull as ditchwater and eminently forgettable though he is reasonably pro Brexit so might be good news for a FTA with us if Brexit is still on by then and he wins in October
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited March 2019

    HYUFD said:

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
    Farage doesn't exactly have a stellar record in by-elections though...

    (The Brexit Party itself is also deeply obscure)
    Based on my (very limited) knowledge of the global tariff regime, this sounds rather New Zealand-ish. Not quite unilateral free trade, but not a million miles from it. Mildly encouraging if true.
    My obligatory cue to remind PBers that NZ basically crushed most/all domestic industry as a result of its liberalisation. Yes, we created a milk product exporting powerhouse. Yes, too, we have one of the highest current account deficits in the world. We are over-indexed on a single commodity and still not paying our way.

    I don’t think NZ is a good model to follow.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,503
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    I expect he will stick it out, he is the only Canadian PM most of the world has heard of since his father, with the possible exception of Mulroney, it would be a pity for Canada if he went
    Not really. I didn’t like his father and I don’t like him either.

    I think he’s a sanctimonious virtue-signalling pompous hypocrite who drips identity politics and craves mass migration. He’s also a cringeworthy self-obsessed narcissistic national embarrassment.

    I’d vote Scheer without a second thought but I doubt he’ll make it in the Autumn.
    Liking someone has nothing whatsoever to do with a PM being well known, many Brits hated Thatcher and Blair but both saw Britain punch above its weight thanks to their star power.

    Scheer is dull as ditchwater and eminently forgettable though he is reasonably pro Brexit so might be good news for a FTA with us if Brexit is still on by then
    I don’t think he’s dull. He has more about him than Harper.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    MaxPB said:

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.

    You should come to a couple of the meetings. The International Committee of Brussels Funded Traitors always has a spare seat. You have to bring your own white cat but one can be provided. The cheese and chocolate are phenomenal, obviously... :)
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    There does seem to be an issue with Leavers and threatening behaviour.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193

    HYUFD said:

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
    Farage doesn't exactly have a stellar record in by-elections though...

    (The Brexit Party itself is also deeply obscure)
    Based on my (very limited) knowledge of the global tariff regime, this sounds rather New Zealand-ish. Not quite unilateral free trade, but not a million miles from it. Mildly encouraging if true.
    Farage got 32% in Thanet South in 2015 and UKIP only lost the Heywood and Middleton by election by 600 votes.

    If Brexit looks like being revoked the Brexit Party will soon become a focal point of Leaver revolt
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Disappointing news from Nissan. MPs need to get on and sign the WA.

    Mps aren't going to sign it - that's been obvious for a while. May needs (at a minimum) more Labour rebels than ERG members who still vote against and there isn't going to be enough of those.
    It's as it has been for a long time - no deal or revoke. If pushing it right to the March deadline isn't enough to scare enough Lab rebels or ERG to back the deal then nothing is going to.
    Wouldn't it be Delay? May's style is to kick the can down the road whenever she can, and it's likely the EU would accept that rather than take the hit of No Deal.
    I am including delay within revoke, since they will certainly not have the balls to revoke before the deadline or without a referendum. So delay becomes referendum which becomes revoke.
    Noted with thanks, Kle.

    One way or another, Delay equals Remain, I think.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    edited March 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    I expect he will stick it out, he is the only Canadian PM most of the world has heard of since his father, with the possible exception of Mulroney, it would be a pity for Canada if he went
    Not really. I didn’t like his father and I don’t like him either.

    I think he’s a sanctimonious virtue-signalling pompous hypocrite who drips identity politics and craves mass migration. He’s also a cringeworthy self-obsessed narcissistic national embarrassment.

    I’d vote Scheer without a second thought but I doubt he’ll make it in the Autumn.
    Liking someone has nothing whatsoever to do with a PM being well known, many Brits hated Thatcher and Blair but both saw Britain punch above its weight thanks to their star power.

    Scheer is dull as ditchwater and eminently forgettable though he is reasonably pro Brexit so might be good news for a FTA with us if Brexit is still on by then
    I don’t think he’s dull. He has more about him than Harper.
    That is like saying a lamppost has more charisma than a bin and Harper was brighter than Scheer is
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
    Of course you don't accept it, but I suppose you're quite happy with a life of subservience, whether to MPs or the EU.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,730
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
    Of course you don't accept it, but I suppose you're quite happy with a life of subservience, whether to MPs or the EU.
    What you find offensive is precisely the refusal of so many of us to be subservient to your fascistic conception of "the will of the people".
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Co-incidentally I am reading a history of the French Revolution. After casting about for the best (most readable) one, I found Christopher Hibbert’s, published in 1980.

    The Brexit parallels are indeed obvious, though sadly we are not quite yet at the stage where the revolution eats itself.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
    Of course you don't accept it, but I suppose you're quite happy with a life of subservience, whether to MPs or the EU.
    What you find offensive is precisely the refusal of so many of us to be subservient to your fascistic conception of "the will of the people".
    Not at all, I have no issue with the remain marches and protests. That is your right. The elected representatives don't have that right. They have been told what to do and many of them are now refusing to carry it out.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,730
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
    Of course you don't accept it, but I suppose you're quite happy with a life of subservience, whether to MPs or the EU.
    What you find offensive is precisely the refusal of so many of us to be subservient to your fascistic conception of "the will of the people".
    Not at all, I have no issue with the remain marches and protests. That is your right. The elected representatives don't have that right. They have been told what to do and many of them are now refusing to carry it out.
    Is it MPs voting for the deal or MPs voting against the deal who you think deserve the opprobrium of Brexit voters?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
    Of course you don't accept it, but I suppose you're quite happy with a life of subservience, whether to MPs or the EU.
    What you find offensive is precisely the refusal of so many of us to be subservient to your fascistic conception of "the will of the people".
    Not at all, I have no issue with the remain marches and protests. That is your right. The elected representatives don't have that right. They have been told what to do and many of them are now refusing to carry it out.
    Is it MPs voting for the deal or MPs voting against the deal who you think deserve the opprobrium of Brexit voters?
    Against.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,503
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    I expect he will stick it out, he is the only Canadian PM most of the world has heard of since his father, with the possible exception of Mulroney, it would be a pity for Canada if he went
    Not really. I didn’t like his father and I don’t like him either.

    I think he’s a sanctimonious virtue-signalling pompous hypocrite who drips identity politics and craves mass migration. He’s also a cringeworthy self-obsessed narcissistic national embarrassment.

    I’d vote Scheer without a second thought but I doubt he’ll make it in the Autumn.
    Liking someone has nothing whatsoever to do with a PM being well known, many Brits hated Thatcher and Blair but both saw Britain punch above its weight thanks to their star power.

    Scheer is dull as ditchwater and eminently forgettable though he is reasonably pro Brexit so might be good news for a FTA with us if Brexit is still on by then
    I don’t think he’s dull. He has more about him than Harper.
    That is like saying a lamppost has more charisma than a bin and Harper was brighter than Scheer is
    Not really. I think you’re doing a disservice to both there.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,730
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
    Of course you don't accept it, but I suppose you're quite happy with a life of subservience, whether to MPs or the EU.
    What you find offensive is precisely the refusal of so many of us to be subservient to your fascistic conception of "the will of the people".
    Not at all, I have no issue with the remain marches and protests. That is your right. The elected representatives don't have that right. They have been told what to do and many of them are now refusing to carry it out.
    Is it MPs voting for the deal or MPs voting against the deal who you think deserve the opprobrium of Brexit voters?
    Against.
    So Amber Rudd and Nick Boles are good honest patriots, and Iain Duncan Smith and Jacob Rees-Mogg are treacherous lackeys of Brussels?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
    Farage doesn't exactly have a stellar record in by-elections though...

    (The Brexit Party itself is also deeply obscure)
    Based on my (very limited) knowledge of the global tariff regime, this sounds rather New Zealand-ish. Not quite unilateral free trade, but not a million miles from it. Mildly encouraging if true.
    Farage got 32% in Thanet South in 2015 and UKIP only lost the Heywood and Middleton by election by 600 votes.

    If Brexit looks like being revoked the Brexit Party will soon become a focal point of Leaver revolt
    The Brexit Party will have to see off UKIP - which for all its newly acquired extremists has the advantage of brand recognition.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    viewcode said:

    Manufacturing is increasingly head towards customised manufacture as increased IT use leads to greater flexibility. Batch sizes of 1 may become a future norm

    To run that you need a highly skilled work force and po0licies designed to reduce fixed costs to a minimum.

    I don't think that model is viable for the UK. It's an NHS-worshipping aging population with a surprisingly large number of people not in work. Retrofitting a high-skill rapid-retraining geographically-flexible workforce onto that will be like putting porn star tits on Maggie Smith: some people will prefer it but most will find it difficult to cope with.
    That is a truly disturbing image

    Ye Gods!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Our MPs are snowflakes who perceive political advantage in wasting police time?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Yorkcity said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/05/tories-suspend-14-members-
    Saw this on the BBC news at 6
    Looks like only the Lib Dems do not have a problem.

    Looks as if Warsi is after Boris.
    She can bloody have him.
  • Endillion said:

    Yorkcity said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/05/tories-suspend-14-members-
    Saw this on the BBC news at 6
    Looks like only the Lib Dems do not have a problem.

    Looks as if Warsi is after Boris.
    She can bloody have him.
    Cannot argue that one
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780

    Co-incidentally I am reading a history of the French Revolution. After casting about for the best (most readable) one, I found Christopher Hibbert’s, published in 1980.

    The Brexit parallels are indeed obvious, though sadly we are not quite yet at the stage where the revolution eats itself.

    Simon Schama's "Citizens" was very well received when it was written. I like it, but I do find there's a sort of lulling sense about it. (Aka I fall asleep)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    Im afraid I don’t accept your framing of the situation, indeed I find it offensive.
    Of course you don't accept it, but I suppose you're quite happy with a life of subservience, whether to MPs or the EU.
    What you find offensive is precisely the refusal of so many of us to be subservient to your fascistic conception of "the will of the people".
    Not at all, I have no issue with the remain marches and protests. That is your right. The elected representatives don't have that right. They have been told what to do and many of them are now refusing to carry it out.
    1) Elected representatives have every right to act within their competencies however they see fit and are answerable only to their constituents at an election. The referendum binds no-one legally or morally. No one has the right to break the law. The referendum was an instruction to the executive, who have failed to carry it out with any competence, not the legislature. As the famous eaflet said “The Government will...” - it didn’t and couldn’t bind Parliament.

    2) “Refusing to carry it out” appears to mean that those who voted for Artlce 50 and also the Withdrawal Agreement. That is wholly in keeping with the referendum.

    MPs answer to their constituents at elections. Any suggestion that it is in any way legitimate for them to be swayed by violence or threads thereof by individuals is the exact opposite of democracy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    viewcode said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    viewcode said:

    Further proof of Project Fear becoming Project Reality.

    Big hugs for all those who had already pinned this on the Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102993361345171456

    Are you saying there are no muslims in Ireland ?
    Last time I was in Belfast I think I doubled the number of Muslims in Ireland.

    The natives kept on staring at me.

    I don't think they were paying attention to my Louis Vuitton loafers.
    The Royal Statistical Society conference is in Belfast in September. I was thinking of staying at the Europa Hotel. My life is weird... :)
    I can imagine the marketing emails.

    “On the balance of probabilities, our conference will take place on 18-19 September”
    There's a pub quiz and a dinner. Not on the same night, obvs.

    The networking is amazing. At the height of the Afghan occupation I was speaking to a Colonel who'd just come back and the Civil Servant who was trying to do a census in a country where women are not allowed to contact people. There have been lectures on domestic violence and how to develop a checklist for A&E staff to detect domestic abuse. Battlefield statistics, surgical statistics, epidemiologists in Ebola hot zones, lepers in India. I've met [redacted because of namedropping] Great fun... :)
    My favourite networking story is from a dinner at Pratt’s. My father was sitting between a senior British soldier and an Irish peer with republican leanings (this was shortkyvafter the GFA).

    Over the course of dinner they figured out that they had each - literally - had the other in their sights during the Troubles but couldn’t take the shot for some reason
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MPs decides to take it upon themselves to frustrate the votes of 17m people.

    I don't agree with any violence towards MPs, but the reaction shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

    Additionally calling some of the ones who work on behalf of their masters in Brussels traitors isn't a crime, it's pointing out the obvious.
    This is a grossly irresponsible position to take.
    Not really. What you're suggesting is that the people should have no reaction when MPs conspire to subvert democracy, they should just shut up and accept it, do as they are told by their masters.
    No, the people should vote them out. Violence from people who support Brexit is as disgraceful as violence from Irish Republicans opposed to it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    Endillion said:

    Yorkcity said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/05/tories-suspend-14-members-
    Saw this on the BBC news at 6
    Looks like only the Lib Dems do not have a problem.

    Looks as if Warsi is after Boris.
    She can bloody have him.
    The Conservative Party would be better off without either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
    Farage doesn't exactly have a stellar record in by-elections though...

    (The Brexit Party itself is also deeply obscure)
    Based on my (very limited) knowledge of the global tariff regime, this sounds rather New Zealand-ish. Not quite unilateral free trade, but not a million miles from it. Mildly encouraging if true.
    Farage got 32% in Thanet South in 2015 and UKIP only lost the Heywood and Middleton by election by 600 votes.

    If Brexit looks like being revoked the Brexit Party will soon become a focal point of Leaver revolt
    The Brexit Party will have to see off UKIP - which for all its newly acquired extremists has the advantage of brand recognition.
    Farage will carry the name recognition with him, UKIP are still nowhere near the levels they reached when he led the party and the prospect of no Brexit would enable him to reach for the same voters he won from 2010 to 2015 and add on more furious Tory and Labour Leavers besides
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,193
    Sean_F said:

    Endillion said:

    Yorkcity said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/05/tories-suspend-14-members-
    Saw this on the BBC news at 6
    Looks like only the Lib Dems do not have a problem.

    Looks as if Warsi is after Boris.
    She can bloody have him.
    The Conservative Party would be better off without either.
    No, Boris knows how to win votes, like him or loathe him as his Mayoral wins and the Leave win showed
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    O/T - I’m not seeing the smoking gun for Trudeau but will laugh my socks off if he has to resign.

    I expect he will stick it out, he is the only Canadian PM most of the world has heard of since his father, with the possible exception of Mulroney, it would be a pity for Canada if he went
    Not really. I didn’t like his father and I don’t like him either.

    I think he’s a sanctimonious virtue-signalling pompous hypocrite who drips identity politics and craves mass migration. He’s also a cringeworthy self-obsessed narcissistic national embarrassment.

    I’d vote Scheer without a second thought but I doubt he’ll make it in the Autumn.
    Liking someone has nothing whatsoever to do with a PM being well known, many Brits hated Thatcher and Blair but both saw Britain punch above its weight thanks to their star power.

    Scheer is dull as ditchwater and eminently forgettable though he is reasonably pro Brexit so might be good news for a FTA with us if Brexit is still on by then
    I don’t think he’s dull. He has more about him than Harper.
    That is like saying a lamppost has more charisma than a bin and Harper was brighter than Scheer is
    Bet the lamppost was brighter than both of them put together.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Labour Live organizers will be on the phone shortly asking if they can book for this years festival....

    Belgium anti-Semitism row over stereotyped Jews in carnival float

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47454415
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    viewcode said:

    Further proof of Project Fear becoming Project Reality.

    Big hugs for all those who had already pinned this on the Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1102993361345171456

    Are you saying there are no muslims in Ireland ?
    Last time I was in Belfast I think I doubled the number of Muslims in Ireland.

    The natives kept on staring at me.

    I don't think they were paying attention to my Louis Vuitton loafers.
    The Royal Statistical Society conference is in Belfast in September. I was thinking of staying at the Europa Hotel. My life is weird... :)
    I can imagine the marketing emails.

    “On the balance of probabilities, our conference will take place on 18-19 September”
    There's a pub quiz and a dinner. Not on the same night, obvs.

    The networking is amazing. At the height of the Afghan occupation I was speaking to a Colonel who'd just come back and the Civil Servant who was trying to do a census in a country where women are not allowed to contact people. There have been lectures on domestic violence and how to develop a checklist for A&E staff to detect domestic abuse. Battlefield statistics, surgical statistics, epidemiologists in Ebola hot zones, lepers in India. I've met [redacted because of namedropping] Great fun... :)
    My favourite networking story is from a dinner at Pratt’s. My father was sitting between a senior British soldier and an Irish peer with republican leanings (this was shortkyvafter the GFA).

    Over the course of dinner they figured out that they had each - literally - had the other in their sights during the Troubles but couldn’t take the shot for some reason
    Physical force republicanism to the House of Lords is a hell of a journey.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,730
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
    Farage doesn't exactly have a stellar record in by-elections though...

    (The Brexit Party itself is also deeply obscure)
    Based on my (very limited) knowledge of the global tariff regime, this sounds rather New Zealand-ish. Not quite unilateral free trade, but not a million miles from it. Mildly encouraging if true.
    Farage got 32% in Thanet South in 2015 and UKIP only lost the Heywood and Middleton by election by 600 votes.

    If Brexit looks like being revoked the Brexit Party will soon become a focal point of Leaver revolt
    The Brexit Party will have to see off UKIP - which for all its newly acquired extremists has the advantage of brand recognition.
    Farage will carry the name recognition with him, UKIP are still nowhere near the levels they reached when he led the party and the prospect of no Brexit would enable him to reach for the same voters he won from 2010 to 2015 and add on more furious Tory and Labour Leavers besides
    The problem is that if Farage campaigns successfully it might drive votes to UKIP rather than to his new party because the brand linkage is so strong.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The ERG will of course parade the removal of tariffs for certain sectors as a victory for consumers of course failing to explain that the removal of those will often lead to UK businesses going under as they can’t compete .

    So whilst many consumers will be duped they’ll also be losing their jobs as a result .
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited March 2019
    Omnium said:

    Co-incidentally I am reading a history of the French Revolution. After casting about for the best (most readable) one, I found Christopher Hibbert’s, published in 1980.

    The Brexit parallels are indeed obvious, though sadly we are not quite yet at the stage where the revolution eats itself.

    Simon Schama's "Citizens" was very well received when it was written. I like it, but I do find there's a sort of lulling sense about it. (Aka I fall asleep)
    I read this at university. I cannot bear Schama’s florid prise style.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I was going to desist banging the homosexual drum this evening, BUT... The Graun actually did publish a piece today defending that LGBT education scheme in Birmingham, so kudos to them.

    On topic: if Peterborough does go to by-election, it looks to me very much like it's the Tories' seat to lose.

    Depends, if it falls after the Commons has voted for a Brexit extension or even EUref2 it would be ideal pickings for Farage's new Brexit Party as a strongly Leave seat
    Farage doesn't exactly have a stellar record in by-elections though...

    (The Brexit Party itself is also deeply obscure)
    Based on my (very limited) knowledge of the global tariff regime, this sounds rather New Zealand-ish. Not quite unilateral free trade, but not a million miles from it. Mildly encouraging if true.
    Farage got 32% in Thanet South in 2015 and UKIP only lost the Heywood and Middleton by election by 600 votes.

    If Brexit looks like being revoked the Brexit Party will soon become a focal point of Leaver revolt
    The Brexit Party will have to see off UKIP - which for all its newly acquired extremists has the advantage of brand recognition.
    Farage will carry the name recognition with him, UKIP are still nowhere near the levels they reached when he led the party and the prospect of no Brexit would enable him to reach for the same voters he won from 2010 to 2015 and add on more furious Tory and Labour Leavers besides
    I suspect you underestimate the extent to which voters - including Leave voters - are keen to move on from Brexit. He probably lacks the receptive audience of 2015/2016 when much of his support was based on anti-establishment feelings rather than the EU issue per se. Many are now likely to seek alternative vehicles as a means of venting their displeasure.
This discussion has been closed.