Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Crisis, what crisis?

2

Comments

  • rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    Chill out.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    Pulpstar said:

    I think the "March to leave" website sums up the issues - the picture presented is of a nice walk on a rural path in the sunlit uplands. The reality is going to be lorries passing within a foot of yourself on a busy A road.

    Not all of it.

    The Leicester to Oakham stretch includes a little bit of the Leicester Outer Ringroad, then a completely rural walk along muddy footpaths after Scraptoft. The Weatherspoons on Scraptoft lane would be ideal for refreshments. After that it is just fields and may not see anyone but the odd dogwalker.

    It seems an odd place for a march. Similtaneously challenging and invisible, but quite pretty. Leicester voted Remain, and Birstall where it starts is fairly middle class suburban Leicester, with a large Hindu population.

    https://www.marchtoleave.com/route
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
  • rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    Except in the Daily Mail version the fat would be halal.
  • rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Oh I agree. I was only jesting with Uniondivvie as I share his views on independence generally.

    In answer to your question I think both and it varied. Although as far as I know it was never a single entity as we understand it today. But they did get close at times.
  • rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Well, you can read wikipedia as well as any of us, but I think the best short answer I can come up with is: it was complicated.
  • rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    Chill out.
    See my reply to JJ. I was only jesting with you. I agree with you on a wide range of things not least independence.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    edited February 2019

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Well, you can read wikipedia as well as any of us, but I think the best short answer I can come up with is: it was complicated.
    I tend to stay away from Wikipedia for these things. Indian history is one of those things I would like to look at in more detail at some point in the future when I am not snowed under with work. I have given lectures in the past on the Indus Valley civilisation and I know a fair bit about the colonial period onwards but the huge sweep of history imbetween is basically a blank to me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,198

    So Boris is prepared to bring the country down with him, if it brings him one last shot at the crown.

    Reminds me of his series on the most unscrupulous roman emperors, which he always seemed more fascinated by than the glories of Athens.

    Boris refused to vote to extend Article 50 yesterday and abstained but 502 MPs out of 650 did vote to extend Article 50 so Boris does not have the numbers to stop the Deal or extension of Article 50 and EUref2.

    However Boris does know a No Dealer is likely to be the Tory memberships favourite to succeed May when she eventually goes
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    As we say in my profession "there's a lot of it about" :

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2881103/54-teachers-struck-nine-months-sexual-misconduct-pupils-including-sleeping-kissing-sexting.html

    I know of a very significant issue at a secondary school in Leicester, involving a senior teacher and underage girls, in the last year. The whole school knew of it, and it came to light via an anonymous letter to the school governors. Not yet hit the press yet it seems.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
  • Callaghan never actually said "Crisis, what Crisis?" :)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Well, you can read wikipedia as well as any of us, but I think the best short answer I can come up with is: it was complicated.
    Complicated certainly, but national sovereignty is a rather anachronistic way to understand a period, where control was via dynastic sovereignty and vassal states. Sometimes such sovereignty was pretty nominal, such as in Ireland in the Elizabethan period.
  • rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    Chill out.
    See my reply to JJ. I was only jesting with you. I agree with you on a wide range of things not least independence.
    Cool. It was only on my mind because I'd watched the fragrant Lucy Worsley exploring the issue a couple of nights ago.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited February 2019

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    In a dark room? With a Polaroid?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Let's be honest, that leave march is just a two week long pub crawl ending in a big punch up in London.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    In a dark room? With a Polaroid?
    Maybe. Weren’t Polaroids always tiny and crap quality photos?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    tlg86 said:

    Let's be honest, that leave march is just a two week long pub crawl ending in a big punch up in London.

    I suspect that it will be much smaller, yet more troublesome than the London one on 23rd March for a #peoplesvote

    https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk/status/1100834424843833345?s=19
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    In a dark room? With a Polaroid?
    Maybe. Weren’t Polaroids always tiny and crap quality photos?
    No
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    Chill out.
    See my reply to JJ. I was only jesting with you. I agree with you on a wide range of things not least independence.
    Cool. It was only on my mind because I'd watched the fragrant Lucy Worsley exploring the issue a couple of nights ago.
    May I ask what proggie that was, just in case it is on iPlayer or another catchup service?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    Schools used to have their own photography clubs and dark rooms. My former brother-in-law used to attend one.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    edited February 2019
    AndyJS said:
    The obituarists are writing all the right words. Just not necessarily in the right order... :)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:
    The obituarists are writing all the right words. Just not necessarily in the right order... :)
    +1
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Brussels insisting that any extension has to be a one off does one of two things .

    Makes it easier for the government to push for an extension . But it also brings a stark choice up at the end of that extension .

    Either back a deal or there really will be a no deal . The less likely option is MPs back a deal with the proviso it gets ratified by the public .

    If that happens I’d expect May to resign . Of course the ERG could really up the stakes and go all in for no deal but if pushed how many Labour MPs in Leave seats and more moderate pro EU Tories could stomach a no deal . How many would flip to support a deal with a pubic vote.

    There’s currently no majority for another vote , the only way it comes about is if it’s s choice between that and a no deal.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited February 2019

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    Chill out.
    See my reply to JJ. I was only jesting with you. I agree with you on a wide range of things not least independence.
    Cool. It was only on my mind because I'd watched the fragrant Lucy Worsley exploring the issue a couple of nights ago.
    May I ask what proggie that was, just in case it is on iPlayer or another catchup service?
    It is on iPlayer - British History's biggest fibs. Ep 3 The Jewel in the Crown.
  • rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    Chill out.
    See my reply to JJ. I was only jesting with you. I agree with you on a wide range of things not least independence.
    Cool. It was only on my mind because I'd watched the fragrant Lucy Worsley exploring the issue a couple of nights ago.
    May I ask what proggie that was, just in case it is on iPlayer or another catchup service?
    It was a repeat episode from one of her previous series, it is indeed on iPlayer:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08d7y3n/british-historys-biggest-fibs-with-lucy-worsley-series-1-3-the-jewel-in-the-crown
  • rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    In a dark room? With a Polaroid?
    Maybe. Weren’t Polaroids always tiny and crap quality photos?
    No
    That was my recollection.
  • viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    Schools used to have their own photography clubs and dark rooms. My former brother-in-law used to attend one.
    That’s even weirder. Imagine another member of staff walking in on you developing those?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
    Yes but the phrasing “before the EIC” implies immediately before
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    Schools used to have their own photography clubs and dark rooms. My former brother-in-law used to attend one.
    That’s even weirder. Imagine another member of staff walking in on you developing those?
    I'd rather not... :(
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
    Yes but the phrasing “before the EIC” implies immediately before
    The EIC initially was operating in India while the Mogul Empire was at its peak.

    Mogul Empire (1526-1857), peak years 1556-1707
    EIC 1612-1757
  • Foxy said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Well, you can read wikipedia as well as any of us, but I think the best short answer I can come up with is: it was complicated.
    Complicated certainly, but national sovereignty is a rather anachronistic way to understand a period, where control was via dynastic sovereignty and vassal states. Sometimes such sovereignty was pretty nominal, such as in Ireland in the Elizabethan period.
    "The Brits partitioned my country too, you know!" :)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902
    Evening all :)

    A fascinating week coming in UK politics - the resignation of George Eustace today shows internal Conservative tensions remain very much in place. It seems likely at least 20 (and possibly more) Conservatives will oppose the WA next week so it's hard to see the WA passing unless Geoffrey Cox can come up with a form of legalese which pleases everyone and no one in equal measure.

    There will be those who cite last night's vote as a basis for assuming an extension to A50 will happen - I'm much less convinced. Agreeing to it in principle and agreeing to it in practice are as similar as voting LEAVE and being able to explain what leaving the EU means.

    Will the Conservative Party support a 2-year extension to A50 or would 3 months be enough? Where do Labour and the TIG stand? In essence, if we are asking for an extension, why are we asking and what does such an extension achieve other than kicking the much-kicked can down the road one more time?

    The "let's get this over with" constituency may be more representative than we think - how will they react to the prospect of another 24 months of this? Not well, I'd venture.

    I still see no route to a second vote or to a GE that is anything other than obfuscation. If the WA is rejected, we leave on 29/3 without a WA.

    This remains about the soul of the Conservative Party as it has been all along - the final confrontation keeps getting postponed or delayed or mitigated but it is approaching. So far, the ERG has bottled every battle but at the same time May has been forced into retreat after retreat (there was no talk of an extension just a few weeks ago).

    Revocation would be the breaking point so that won't happen but to what extent and in what way will those anxious to see us leave the EU accept the notion of another 24 months of this quasi-limbo status let alone the prospect of fighting elections in June against an energised Faragist party (and others).
  • MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
    Yes but the phrasing “before the EIC” implies immediately before
    The EIC initially was operating in India while the Mogul Empire was at its peak.

    Mogul Empire (1526-1857), peak years 1556-1707
    EIC 1612-1757
    In fact, the Indian Rebellion against the EIC in 1857 was partially about restoring the Mogul Emperor.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    Schools used to have their own photography clubs and dark rooms. My former brother-in-law used to attend one.
    That’s even weirder. Imagine another member of staff walking in on you developing those?
    I'd rather not... :(
    Amateur Photography was a big thing when I was a kid. My brother got into it when he was about 15 via a neighbor. He then got his own dark room kit which he taught me how to use. We never sent out anything black and white for development - did it all ourselves. And then in Yemen another friend got me into developing my own colour prints.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    Chill out.
    See my reply to JJ. I was only jesting with you. I agree with you on a wide range of things not least independence.
    Cool. It was only on my mind because I'd watched the fragrant Lucy Worsley exploring the issue a couple of nights ago.
    May I ask what proggie that was, just in case it is on iPlayer or another catchup service?
    It was a repeat episode from one of her previous series, it is indeed on iPlayer:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08d7y3n/british-historys-biggest-fibs-with-lucy-worsley-series-1-3-the-jewel-in-the-crown
    Thanks to you and Ralph; I've just checked and it turns out I recorded it on my PVR - I'll shift it up my watch list. ;)
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I think May will ask the EU to make sure they deliver a strong message on a one off extension .

    And she will amend the motion to say that as it means there’s likely to be fewer resignations from the Tory side.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited February 2019
    If the UK does end up taking part in the EU elections the People’s Vote should really mobilize pro EU voters to back Labour and the Lib Dems .

    They need to do everything possible to beat the Eurosceptics.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902
    nico67 said:

    I think May will ask the EU to make sure they deliver a strong message on a one off extension .

    And she will amend the motion to say that as it means there’s likely to be fewer resignations from the Tory side.

    I'm not sure I understand that. The EU have been perfectly happy to allow countries to have a second attempt to get the "correct" decision. If they judge a second vote will reverse the June 2016 vote they would go along with an extension to enable that but that's a gamble and I'm not convinced LEAVE wouldn't win a second vote.

    As for "amending the motion", well, maybe but elements in the Cabinet have made their position clear and have already forced may, who had previously dismissed the notion, into contemplating an A50 extension.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited February 2019
    Bradford Council defends employee who watched boy being kicked in the head

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17467793.bradford-council-defends-employee-who-watched-boy-being-kicked-in-the-head/

    How the fcuk can anyone defend the security guy for just standing there while the young lad gets his head kicked in.

    Another hate crime I see.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    nico67 said:

    If the UK does end up taking part in the EU elections the People’s Vote should really mobilize pro EU voters to back Labour and the Lib Dems .

    They need to do everything possible to beat the Eurosceptics.

    If the UK does end up taking part in the EU elections, it will act as a proxy for a second referendum. Whose supporters will turn out in force? Whose will be angrier?

    Unless a second referendum is specifically legislated for before the EU elections, I don't think a second referendum will happen.

    Because if the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the leavers in Parliament will cave and take whatever Brexit they can get.

    On the other hand, if there's a loud, angry pro-Brexit vote, the People's Vote lot will suddenly find themselves a lot less interested in giving the "people" a second say.

    And of course if it's a near 50/50 split we'll know a second referendum is unlikely to solve anything and isn't worth bothering with.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    nico67 said:

    If the UK does end up taking part in the EU elections the People’s Vote should really mobilize pro EU voters to back Labour and the Lib Dems .

    They need to do everything possible to beat the Eurosceptics.

    Well seeing as the PV controllers are Blair, Campbell, Powell and Adonis then they have a real problem deciding as to whether they support Labour. I would imagine they would like to get behind the Tiggers. But can the Tiggers field enough candidates.
    To me it seems that Labour is or has become toxic. I was watching Watson on prime time TV saying the current Labour Party is institutionally racist at the moment. How can anybody recommend supporting this lot is beyond me, I am surprised that in the House all the die hard anti racists walk through the division lobby with the Labour Party.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732
    kyf_100 said:

    Because if the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the leavers in Parliament will cave and take whatever Brexit they can get.

    If the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the pro-EU majority in Westminster will be empowered to support a second referendum.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275

    kyf_100 said:

    Because if the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the leavers in Parliament will cave and take whatever Brexit they can get.

    If the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the pro-EU majority in Westminster will be empowered to support a second referendum.
    There is a legacy REMAIN majority at Westminster. That is not the same as a majority for a referendum.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732
    PeterC said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Because if the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the leavers in Parliament will cave and take whatever Brexit they can get.

    If the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the pro-EU majority in Westminster will be empowered to support a second referendum.
    There is a legacy REMAIN majority at Westminster. That is not the same as a majority for a referendum.
    Westminster is on the cusp of a majority for a second referendum now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725

    Bradford Council defends employee who watched boy being kicked in the head

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17467793.bradford-council-defends-employee-who-watched-boy-being-kicked-in-the-head/

    How the fcuk can anyone defend the security guy for just standing there while the young lad gets his head kicked in.

    Another hate crime I see.

    Playing devil's advocate: from the article, he was a warden, not a security guard. He called the CCTV operators and then tried to warn them that the police were coming - which might have got them to leave the boy alone.

    I don't know what his role is defined as being, but it may well be not to get involved in such situations, and instead get help.

    What would you have had him do?

    A few years back we had controversy (rightly) about a London borough (wandsworth? ) giving its parks people police-like uniforms and powers, but without the oversight.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902


    To me it seems that Labour is or has become toxic. I was watching Watson on prime time TV saying the current Labour Party is institutionally racist at the moment. How can anybody recommend supporting this lot is beyond me, I am surprised that in the House all the die hard anti racists walk through the division lobby with the Labour Party.

    I don't understand this comment either.

    Are you suggesting that if you are anti-racist you must always be in opposition to the Labour Party (ok) but doesn't that mean voting with the Conservatives in a binary division?

    Why should an anti-racist support the Conservatives?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    Schools used to have their own photography clubs and dark rooms. My former brother-in-law used to attend one.
    That led to the downfall of a teacher at Highgate, who developed photos showing him molesting members of the rugby team in the school's dark room. He went for lunch, and another teacher found the photos.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I misread that as:

    "I assure you that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company"

    Which confused me for a minute.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    Back in the days when 15 year olds had Saturday jobs, one of my friends worked at the local equivalent of Snappy Snaps.

    He used to make copies - for his own "use" - of some of the pictures that people used to get developed.

    Unless it was seriously disturbing, then 99.9% of photo shops would just print it. A fifteen year old girl just wearing panties wouldn't have cut it.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited February 2019

    Bradford Council defends employee who watched boy being kicked in the head

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17467793.bradford-council-defends-employee-who-watched-boy-being-kicked-in-the-head/

    How the fcuk can anyone defend the security guy for just standing there while the young lad gets his head kicked in.

    Another hate crime I see.

    Playing devil's advocate: from the article, he was a warden, not a security guard. He called the CCTV operators and then tried to warn them that the police were coming - which might have got them to leave the boy alone.

    I don't know what his role is defined as being, but it may well be not to get involved in such situations, and instead get help.

    What would you have had him do?

    A few years back we had controversy (rightly) about a London borough (wandsworth? ) giving its parks people police-like uniforms and powers, but without the oversight.
    The walk on by society I don't want.

    The human nature of intervening,he could have jumped in between them telling them the police were on the way but he stood there with hands in pocket.

    This easily could have been a murder investigation with the boots to the head of that boy.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275

    PeterC said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Because if the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the leavers in Parliament will cave and take whatever Brexit they can get.

    If the pro-EU vote turns out in force, the pro-EU majority in Westminster will be empowered to support a second referendum.
    There is a legacy REMAIN majority at Westminster. That is not the same as a majority for a referendum.
    Westminster is on the cusp of a majority for a second referendum now.
    How many Labour Noes and Tory Ayes do you expect re REF2?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    stodge said:


    To me it seems that Labour is or has become toxic. I was watching Watson on prime time TV saying the current Labour Party is institutionally racist at the moment. How can anybody recommend supporting this lot is beyond me, I am surprised that in the House all the die hard anti racists walk through the division lobby with the Labour Party.

    I don't understand this comment either.

    Are you suggesting that if you are anti-racist you must always be in opposition to the Labour Party (ok) but doesn't that mean voting with the Conservatives in a binary division?

    Why should an anti-racist support the Conservatives?
    No when the anti-antisemitism came to the fore with the current Labour Party the leadership had the opportunity to take action to sort the problem out. So other political parties could continue to deal with the Labour Party in Parliament knowing that the problem was acknowledged and being dealt with. This has not happened, if fact it seems it is getting worse. At some time a line must be drawn by other parties as to when they stop dealing with the Labour Party leadership in the House.
    If UKIP were in the House in numbers we would have a cacophony of centre left or left wing parties saying we can not vote with UKIP as they are racist, well the same must apply to the current Labour Party. Principles must be adhered to at some point.
    The other Party's do not have to vote with the Tories, they could abstain.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    nico67 said:

    Brussels insisting that any extension has to be a one off does one of two things .

    Makes it easier for the government to push for an extension . But it also brings a stark choice up at the end of that extension .

    Either back a deal or there really will be a no deal . The less likely option is MPs back a deal with the proviso it gets ratified by the public .

    If that happens I’d expect May to resign . Of course the ERG could really up the stakes and go all in for no deal but if pushed how many Labour MPs in Leave seats and more moderate pro EU Tories could stomach a no deal . How many would flip to support a deal with a pubic vote.

    There’s currently no majority for another vote , the only way it comes about is if it’s s choice between that and a no deal.

    A second extension is ruled out. Would not revocation come into view if the cliff edge is but yards away?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725
    edited February 2019


    The walk on by society I don't want.

    The human nature of intervening,he could have jumped in between them telling them the police were on the way but he stood there with hands in pocket.

    This easily could have been a murder investigation with the boots to the head of that boy.

    But he didn't walk on by: he stopped and reported it.

    Say he had got involved: the question then becomes has he been trained to intervene in such a situation, and what he is *allowed* to do in such a situation. In fact, intervening might conceivably make matters worse, especially if untrained.

    I'm not saying he did the right thing; I am saying it's far from clear he did the *wrong* thing. Let's hope they get the scum who did it.

    Sometimes a watching brief can be the best thing to do ...
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Is it an opera or a cheese?

    https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/opera-or-cheese-game/

    I scored 14/18, but there were quite a few lucky guesses in there...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902


    No when the anti-antisemitism came to the fore with the current Labour Party the leadership had the opportunity to take action to sort the problem out. So other political parties could continue to deal with the Labour Party in Parliament knowing that the problem was acknowledged and being dealt with. This has not happened, if fact it seems it is getting worse. At some time a line must be drawn by other parties as to when they stop dealing with the Labour Party leadership in the House.
    If UKIP were in the House in numbers we would have a cacophony of centre left or left wing parties saying we can not vote with UKIP as they are racist, well the same must apply to the current Labour Party. Principles must be adhered to at some point.
    The other Party's do not have to vote with the Tories, they could abstain.

    I'm not disagreeing with your comments about Labour but I don't see how anyone except the Conservatives would benefit from what you are suggesting.

    If a piece of legislation with which the LDs or SNP or PC or whoever disagreed, are you suggesting that IF Labour disagreed as well, said parties should not be in the same lobby as Labour and should simply abstain?

    To abstain is not to register opposition, part of politics is to register your opposition even if it doesn't stop the legislation going through. To stop opposing just because it means being in the same lobby as Labour makes no sense - being in the same lobby as another party doesn't imply support for or approval of that party.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742

    Bradford Council defends employee who watched boy being kicked in the head

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17467793.bradford-council-defends-employee-who-watched-boy-being-kicked-in-the-head/

    How the fcuk can anyone defend the security guy for just standing there while the young lad gets his head kicked in.

    Another hate crime I see.

    Playing devil's advocate: from the article, he was a warden, not a security guard. He called the CCTV operators and then tried to warn them that the police were coming - which might have got them to leave the boy alone.

    I don't know what his role is defined as being, but it may well be not to get involved in such situations, and instead get help.

    What would you have had him do?

    A few years back we had controversy (rightly) about a London borough (wandsworth? ) giving its parks people police-like uniforms and powers, but without the oversight.
    The walk on by society I don't want.

    The human nature of intervening,he could have jumped in between them telling them the police were on the way but he stood there with hands in pocket.

    This easily could have been a murder investigation with the boots to the head of that boy.
    The park custodian didn't walk on by, according to the article he called the police, told the assailants that the police were on their way and tended the injured boy. Later a 16 year old was arrested and charged.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited February 2019
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:


    WRT scandals, I remember how I and fellow schoolboys took it for granted in the eighties that there were some "dodgy" teachers, with very wandering hands.

    At my mixed comprehensive school, it was an open secret that the woodwork teacher had had to leave the local girls school because he'd invited girls back to his house and taken photos of them in various states of undress.
    Back then, how would he have developed those?
    Schools used to have their own photography clubs and dark rooms. My former brother-in-law used to attend one.
    That led to the downfall of a teacher at Highgate, who developed photos showing him molesting members of the rugby team in the school's dark room. He went for lunch, and another teacher found the photos.
    This is from my time at school :

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/396431.stm

    Staff were genuinely saddened about Skirmer as he was well liked, but they all hated the head Vardon.
    Vardon died in 2001
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Foxy said:

    Bradford Council defends employee who watched boy being kicked in the head

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17467793.bradford-council-defends-employee-who-watched-boy-being-kicked-in-the-head/

    How the fcuk can anyone defend the security guy for just standing there while the young lad gets his head kicked in.

    Another hate crime I see.

    Playing devil's advocate: from the article, he was a warden, not a security guard. He called the CCTV operators and then tried to warn them that the police were coming - which might have got them to leave the boy alone.

    I don't know what his role is defined as being, but it may well be not to get involved in such situations, and instead get help.

    What would you have had him do?

    A few years back we had controversy (rightly) about a London borough (wandsworth? ) giving its parks people police-like uniforms and powers, but without the oversight.
    The walk on by society I don't want.

    The human nature of intervening,he could have jumped in between them telling them the police were on the way but he stood there with hands in pocket.

    This easily could have been a murder investigation with the boots to the head of that boy.
    The park custodian didn't walk on by, according to the article he called the police, told the assailants that the police were on their way and tended the injured boy. Later a 16 year old was arrested and charged.
    Watch the video,it tells you more than still photos.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    rcs1000 said:

    Is it an opera or a cheese?

    https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/opera-or-cheese-game/

    I scored 14/18, but there were quite a few lucky guesses in there...

    10/18, and all but 3 were guesses.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    If it's the brightest and the best and we need it,who gives a shit where the people come from.
  • Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Didn't have you down as a racist, Foxy :(
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    stodge said:


    No when the anti-antisemitism came to the fore with the current Labour Party the leadership had the opportunity to take action to sort the problem out. So other political parties could continue to deal with the Labour Party in Parliament knowing that the problem was acknowledged and being dealt with. This has not happened, if fact it seems it is getting worse. At some time a line must be drawn by other parties as to when they stop dealing with the Labour Party leadership in the House.
    If UKIP were in the House in numbers we would have a cacophony of centre left or left wing parties saying we can not vote with UKIP as they are racist, well the same must apply to the current Labour Party. Principles must be adhered to at some point.
    The other Party's do not have to vote with the Tories, they could abstain.

    I'm not disagreeing with your comments about Labour but I don't see how anyone except the Conservatives would benefit from what you are suggesting.

    If a piece of legislation with which the LDs or SNP or PC or whoever disagreed, are you suggesting that IF Labour disagreed as well, said parties should not be in the same lobby as Labour and should simply abstain?

    To abstain is not to register opposition, part of politics is to register your opposition even if it doesn't stop the legislation going through. To stop opposing just because it means being in the same lobby as Labour makes no sense - being in the same lobby as another party doesn't imply support for or approval of that party.

    Now the other party's could say we will only support legislation proposed by the TIG's (as an alternative Labour Party) to the Labour MP's. So Labour MP's could work with the TIG's not the Labour Leadership.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    kinabalu said:

    Very interesting header. What strikes me is that despite the usual focus on systems and structures and procedures it is usually the bad behaviour of people - and a toxic culture which enables and rewards such behaviour - that is the root cause of scandals in organizations and sectors. Certainly this was the case in the one that I have direct personal experience of from the inside - the banking crash of 07/08.

    Am sending you a VM.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Didn't have you down as a racist, Foxy :(
    I don't think I am, just pointing out that the increase in Non EU immigration, most of which comes from the Subcontinent, Middle East and Africa, will change this country significantly.

    To me it is not just a question of "brightest and best" but also ability to culturally assimilate to the majority population. This includes more than language, but also religion, attitude to women and democracy etc. The Fillipinos, East African Asians and Africans that I work with integrate well.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902

    Now the other party's could say we will only support legislation proposed by the TIG's (as an alternative Labour Party) to the Labour MP's. So Labour MP's could work with the TIG's not the Labour Leadership.

    Right. we're getting somewhere. The Labour Parliamentary party does, I believe, have a degree of separate status from the rest of the Labour Party so in theory the Parliamentary Party could have a leader separate from the main party.

    Do you consider Labour MPs in general to be racist or anti-Semitic (I'm not talking about the odd individual but as a group. My MP is Stephen Timms and I don't consider him antisemitic or racist in any shape or form)?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Is it an opera or a cheese?

    https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/opera-or-cheese-game/

    I scored 14/18, but there were quite a few lucky guesses in there...

    10/18, and all but 3 were guesses.
    13/18. Knew a few obscure cheeses, somewhat less on the obscure operas!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902
    Foxy said:


    I don't think I am, just pointing out that the increase in Non EU immigration, most of which comes from the Subcontinent, Middle East and Africa, will change this country significantly.

    To me it is not just a question of "brightest and best" but also ability to culturally assimilate to the majority population. This includes more than language, but also religion, attitude to women and democracy etc. The Fillipinos, East African Asians and Africans that I work with integrate well.

    In my part of East London, I've noticed changes in the migrant population. The Poles and Balts who were first here have gone and we've got the Romanians, Bulgarians and Slovaks but in the last few months there have been more Africans arriving - two main groups, one from the likes of Nigeria, Kenya and Ghana and the other from the former Portuguese colonies such as Angola, Mozambique and Equatorial Guinea.

    Capitalism responds quickly to these changes so the first African grocery shop has now opened as has the café for the Portuguese colonials.

  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
    Yes but the phrasing “before the EIC” implies immediately before
    The EIC initially was operating in India while the Mogul Empire was at its peak.

    Mogul Empire (1526-1857), peak years 1556-1707
    EIC 1612-1757
    In fact, the Indian Rebellion against the EIC in 1857 was partially about restoring the Mogul Emperor.
    Genuine question to someone born in India.
    If vast majority of Kashmir isn’t Hindu, why is India so keen on it?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    stodge said:

    Now the other party's could say we will only support legislation proposed by the TIG's (as an alternative Labour Party) to the Labour MP's. So Labour MP's could work with the TIG's not the Labour Leadership.

    Right. we're getting somewhere. The Labour Parliamentary party does, I believe, have a degree of separate status from the rest of the Labour Party so in theory the Parliamentary Party could have a leader separate from the main party.

    Do you consider Labour MPs in general to be racist or anti-Semitic (I'm not talking about the odd individual but as a group. My MP is Stephen Timms and I don't consider him antisemitic or racist in any shape or form)?
    No I do not consider the majority of Labour MP's to be anti-Semitic. I am criticising the Labour Leadership for not sorting the problem. Hence why I say the other party's should not deal with the leadership but with the MP's.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Didn't have you down as a racist, Foxy :(
    I don't think I am, just pointing out that the increase in Non EU immigration, most of which comes from the Subcontinent, Middle East and Africa, will change this country significantly.

    To me it is not just a question of "brightest and best" but also ability to culturally assimilate to the majority population. This includes more than language, but also religion, attitude to women and democracy etc. The Fillipinos, East African Asians and Africans that I work with integrate well.
    The Non EU immigration is a different issue to and independent of EU immigration.

    Though its been another terrible day for the 'immigrants are only here to do the work the locals wont do' claims.

    I do have a theory that immigration comes in patterns.

    Initially its the young and hard working looking to earn money but they are increasingly followed by more and more dependents while at the same time adopting the work habits of the area they migrate to and, if they do not integrate well, forming their own ghettos in the new country.

    So there's a tipping point where the immigrant community stops being beneficial and starts being a drag on the host nation.

    There are lots of variables involved including the type of the immigrant community, the type of country they migrate to, the time when the migration happens etc.

    Its possible that some immigrant communities might be permanently beneficial while others are permanently negative.
  • Can you imagine the political storm if this was done here over unpaid council tax:

    ' A town in Germany has made headlines for seizing a family's dog over unpaid taxes - and then selling it on eBay.

    German media report that officials in Ahlen initially wanted to seize the wheelchair of a disabled resident as the most valuable item on the premises.

    Instead, they settled on a pedigree pug bitch named Edda. '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47401439
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    edited February 2019
    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
  • dots said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
    Yes but the phrasing “before the EIC” implies immediately before
    The EIC initially was operating in India while the Mogul Empire was at its peak.

    Mogul Empire (1526-1857), peak years 1556-1707
    EIC 1612-1757
    In fact, the Indian Rebellion against the EIC in 1857 was partially about restoring the Mogul Emperor.
    Genuine question to someone born in India.
    If vast majority of Kashmir isn’t Hindu, why is India so keen on it?
    The vast majority of Israel isn't Muslim, but (lots of) the Arabs want it. Demographics can be... changed.
  • Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    Its not where they come from which matters but who they are.

    We should be treating migration on an individual basis.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    dots said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
    Yes but the phrasing “before the EIC” implies immediately before
    The EIC initially was operating in India while the Mogul Empire was at its peak.

    Mogul Empire (1526-1857), peak years 1556-1707
    EIC 1612-1757
    In fact, the Indian Rebellion against the EIC in 1857 was partially about restoring the Mogul Emperor.
    Genuine question to someone born in India.
    If vast majority of Kashmir isn’t Hindu, why is India so keen on it?
    I believe that it comes back to partition. Imperial India was partly directly by the British Indian Civil Service, with about a third a hotchpotch of princely states, where there was princely sovereignty. The monarch was given the choice of whether to join India or Pakistan. So Jammu and Kashmir became Indian despite a majority Muslim population. War broke out, hence the current partition. In theory there was supposed to be a plebiscite.

    In reality it is a Twentieth Century Schwelsig Holsten Question on who is sovereign. The whole question of who is sovereign to decide such issues is very contentious, as the last few years here in the UK demonstrate. Should Scotland and NI be dragged out of the EU against their expressed wishes? the issue is much the same, with a bit less shootin, at least at present.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    dots said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Referring to the way some Indians were executed by the British after the 1857 rebellion was suppressed, perhaps?
    A fitting punishment for the Brexit mutineers.

    Actually the kerfuffle over which kind of fat was used in the sepoys' cartridges has all the hallmarks of a Daily Mail EU scare story.
    I assume you are of the opinion that India would be much better if it had stayed Under the control of the East India Company
    I don't want to get into the wrongs and rights of the colonial period, but a question: was India a single entity before the EIC, was it a series of sometimes-warring kingdoms, or was it both?
    Series of usually warring kingdoms
    That gives the impression that none of them were of global significance, whereas, at one point before the industrial revolution, the Mogul Empire was the world's largest economy on the back of agriculture and manufacturing and, at its greatest extent, was larger than modern day India.
    Yes but the phrasing “before the EIC” implies immediately before
    The EIC initially was operating in India while the Mogul Empire was at its peak.

    Mogul Empire (1526-1857), peak years 1556-1707
    EIC 1612-1757
    In fact, the Indian Rebellion against the EIC in 1857 was partially about restoring the Mogul Emperor.
    Genuine question to someone born in India.
    If vast majority of Kashmir isn’t Hindu, why is India so keen on it?
    Maybe this from wiki - In the first half of the 1st millennium, the Kashmir region became an important centre of Hinduism and later of Buddhism

    Or my guess - india thinks it's they land ?

    Or if we have our Pakistani and indian ancestry posters on here,just blame the British ;-)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    I suspect it is a problem for many, indeed @tykelohnno often expresses that opinion.

    I live in Leicester, the first city in the country where everyone is in a minority. I am pretty comfortable, and enjoy that diversity. I understand though that it is scary for some socially conservative people though.
  • Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    Its not where they come from which matters but who they are.

    We should be treating migration on an individual basis.
    Yep. Absolutely on board with that. I was just confused by Foxy's apparent belief that it was better to have migrants from Europe than from anywhere else in the world.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Can you imagine the political storm if this was done here over unpaid council tax:

    ' A town in Germany has made headlines for seizing a family's dog over unpaid taxes - and then selling it on eBay.

    German media report that officials in Ahlen initially wanted to seize the wheelchair of a disabled resident as the most valuable item on the premises.

    Instead, they settled on a pedigree pug bitch named Edda. '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47401439

    It's appalling.

    Surely there's a German owned auction site they can use rather than that of a faceless US multinational.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Can you imagine the political storm if this was done here over unpaid council tax:

    ' A town in Germany has made headlines for seizing a family's dog over unpaid taxes - and then selling it on eBay.

    German media report that officials in Ahlen initially wanted to seize the wheelchair of a disabled resident as the most valuable item on the premises.

    Instead, they settled on a pedigree pug bitch named Edda. '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47401439

    It's appalling.

    Surely there's a German owned auction site they can use rather than that of a faceless US multinational.
    Serious question.

    Are there German or other equivalents to the big websites - I know Amazon and wiki have multiple national variations.

    I've read that there is no equivalent of PB operating in other countries.
  • Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    The referendum was won by whipping up untrue fears of vast numbers of Muslims descending on Britain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    rcs1000 said:

    Can you imagine the political storm if this was done here over unpaid council tax:

    ' A town in Germany has made headlines for seizing a family's dog over unpaid taxes - and then selling it on eBay.

    German media report that officials in Ahlen initially wanted to seize the wheelchair of a disabled resident as the most valuable item on the premises.

    Instead, they settled on a pedigree pug bitch named Edda. '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47401439

    It's appalling.

    Surely there's a German owned auction site they can use rather than that of a faceless US multinational.
    Serious question.

    Are there German or other equivalents to the big websites - I know Amazon and wiki have multiple national variations.

    I've read that there is no equivalent of PB operating in other countries.
    Which ties into a question I've often had - even where it is legal, how big is political betting generally? Obviously tiny compared to, say, sports betting, but do people place large sums in Spain over the potential share Vox will get in the APril elections?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    Its not where they come from which matters but who they are.

    We should be treating migration on an individual basis.
    Yep. Absolutely on board with that. I was just confused by Foxy's apparent belief that it was better to have migrants from Europe than from anywhere else in the world.
    No, my view is more nuanced than that. It is about culture. European migrants have been coming to Britain and have such a common culture that they have historically integrated well, whether Saxons, Normans, Huegenots (paging Nigel Farage), Ashkenazi Jews, Belgian refugees in 1918, Polish in 1940s, Italians in the 1950s etc etc. Royal Family, Michael Portillo, Michael Howard, Ed Miliband all included.

    Non European migrants can also integrate well, particularly communities that share much of that cultre and willingness to become part of the British tapestry, but some clearly do find that more difficult, such as Ms Begum of ISIS, or @Tykejohnnos disagreeable neighbours.

  • Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    The referendum was won by whipping up untrue fears of vast numbers of Muslims descending on Britain.
    No, the Remain lies about refugee camps at Dover failed to work.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    edited February 2019

    rcs1000 said:

    Can you imagine the political storm if this was done here over unpaid council tax:

    ' A town in Germany has made headlines for seizing a family's dog over unpaid taxes - and then selling it on eBay.

    German media report that officials in Ahlen initially wanted to seize the wheelchair of a disabled resident as the most valuable item on the premises.

    Instead, they settled on a pedigree pug bitch named Edda. '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47401439

    It's appalling.

    Surely there's a German owned auction site they can use rather than that of a faceless US multinational.
    Serious question.

    Are there German or other equivalents to the big websites - I know Amazon and wiki have multiple national variations.

    I've read that there is no equivalent of PB operating in other countries.
    Not in other countries, no.

    There are in other dimensions elsewhere in the multiverse, though.

    There's one where most of the participants are closet pineapple pizza lovers. In fact that's the one we live in. I hope.
  • Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    The referendum was won by whipping up untrue fears of vast numbers of Muslims descending on Britain.
    You are a stuck record Alastair. No matter how many times you repeat these claims you are still singing 'Highway to Hell' in Esperanto.

    In fact as punishment for your stuck record act you are now condemned to watch this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_gtGfAail4
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited February 2019

    Can you imagine the political storm if this was done here over unpaid council tax:

    ' A town in Germany has made headlines for seizing a family's dog over unpaid taxes - and then selling it on eBay.

    German media report that officials in Ahlen initially wanted to seize the wheelchair of a disabled resident as the most valuable item on the premises.

    Instead, they settled on a pedigree pug bitch named Edda. '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47401439

    I know its tangential to the story, but I'm staggered at how ridiculously popular pugs are. Also french bulldogs and other sinfully ugly and malbred dogs.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    The referendum was won by whipping up untrue fears of vast numbers of Muslims descending on Britain.
    Except that muslim voters were promised that after Brexit their families would get priority over Poles and Romanians
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    The referendum was won by whipping up untrue fears of vast numbers of Muslims descending on Britain.
    Except that muslim voters were promised that after Brexit their families would get priority over Poles and Romanians
    To be fair, that is happening in todays immigration figures.
  • Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    The referendum was won by whipping up untrue fears of vast numbers of Muslims descending on Britain.
    You are a stuck record Alastair. No matter how many times you repeat these claims you are still singing 'Highway to Hell' in Esperanto.

    In fact as punishment for your stuck record act you are now condemned to watch this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_gtGfAail4
    Didn’t watch. I’m still right and you know it.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    I suspect it is a problem for many, indeed @tykelohnno often expresses that opinion.

    I live in Leicester, the first city in the country where everyone is in a minority. I am pretty comfortable, and enjoy that diversity. I understand though that it is scary for some socially conservative people though.
    I would say the socioeconomic class of immigrants is more important than their race in how they are regarded.

    There seems to be little hostility to affluent, educated, skilled immigrants.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    Pulpstar said:

    Can you imagine the political storm if this was done here over unpaid council tax:

    ' A town in Germany has made headlines for seizing a family's dog over unpaid taxes - and then selling it on eBay.

    German media report that officials in Ahlen initially wanted to seize the wheelchair of a disabled resident as the most valuable item on the premises.

    Instead, they settled on a pedigree pug bitch named Edda. '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47401439

    I know its tangential to the story, but I'm staggered at how ridiculously popular pugs are. Also french bulldogs and other sinfully ugly and malbred dogs.
    I think over breeding of pugs and bulldogs has worsened a lot of health problems, particularly to do with breathing and obstetric difficulties, but in character they are lovely characterful dogs.
This discussion has been closed.