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  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902
    Evening all :)

    So it seems Parliament has decided to set itself up as a rival to the Cheltenham Festival.

    The opening day features the Meaningful Vote Hurdle - the second time this race has been run but whether it will produce the same result remains to be seen.

    Day Two has its centre piece the No Deal Chase - this is run over 16 days and is a bit of a meaningless distraction with the winner usually ending up in Brussels.

    Day Three features the Extension to the A50 Handicap - this is a marathon trip and is the climax to the hugely successful Kicking the Can Down the Road series of races which have been held over the past two years.

    I gather if the first three days aren't a success there may be a Vote of No Confidence Plate on the fourth and final day. The last time this race was run, the filly Maybot won fairly comfortably and while Arlene's Revenge may offer a threat, it's likely the champion will win again.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    Not surprising - AS level maths is hard enough and we were told today (Parents evening) that the A2 bit is harder with less preceding knowledge that you can fall back on...
  • ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
  • I'm really hoping to do a vote swap at the next general election with a Lib Dem voter in Derby North.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited February 2019
    Scott_P said:
    It's not Brexit. Brexit is taking back control not the EU keeping control unless they deign to release us from their yoke.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    Apart from a few exceptions like Ruth Lawrence, hardly any children go to University.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    This is more exactly how much of the final year of a maths degree should be in the A level course.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    I agree with you. But unfortunately that doesn't mean "threaten Leave with No Deal" will work either.
    No it won't. Hence why I didnt use the word threaten that you're putting into quotation marks.
    It's not surprising that you did not use the word, because I was describing the alternative to your approach. If you deprecate "down", it is permissible for me to mention "up".
  • I'm really hoping to do a vote swap at the next general election with a Lib Dem voter in Derby North.
    I'm up for that too... Presuming bercow isn't blinking disenfranchising me again!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All it’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    Ishmael_Z said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Nice to see Remain’s allies are keeping up their good work.

    https://twitter.com/leavemnsleave/status/1100313986615123968?s=21

    That's hilarious!

    I’ll admit to now being completely baffled. Are these no marks campaigning to make sure the European elections ARE held? Why??
    Because we'll still be members so entitled to vote in them. The quote says if Article 50 is extended.

    If we're still members on election day (or at least first day of the new Parliament) we should get a vote. Can't just pretend we're not members anymore even though we are.
    That is right as far as it goes but what is in it for Leave Mean's Leave? What if it turns into a proxy second referendum?
    Suspect that's excactly what's in it for LML - they'd want to use it as an anti-Remain protest vote. And it's a ploy I could see working - there is little doubt that the people who feel most strongly about Europe are the arch-Leavers.

    I can't see the UK having another vote in EU elections unless and until a 2nd Ref has voted Remain though.
    Thats going to require some political manoeuvring beyond even the Maybot's skills. The elections should be held between May 20 and 26th yet the earliest we could have a second referendum is sometime in October
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    I'm surprised to hear you want to see Cambridge and Oxford abolished.

    I would have thought your ire would be aimed at ex-polys rather than old ones.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    Not surprising - AS level maths is hard enough and we were told today (Parents evening) that the A2 bit is harder with less preceding knowledge that you can fall back on...
    Sadly they're right, as discussed before.
  • When we joined the EC our MEPs weren't elected they were appointed and most were MPs double jobbing IIRC.

    Just saying.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    It's not Brexit.

    Ah, not shiny enough for you...

    Remember that :smile:
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    I'm surprised to hear you want to see Cambridge and Oxford abolished.

    I would have thought your ire would be aimed at ex-polys rather than old ones.
    You know what I meant.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    I didn't say threaten to leave ... I said be prepared to leave ... Do you understand the difference?
    What is the difference in practice? How does one communicate one’s preparation to the counterparty without the, implicit or explicit, threat?

    They don’t care. They really don’t. It’s as much a political thing as an economic thing to them. They’ve known about the possibility of us leaving for six years. And it’s got us the deal on the table now. And if we leave without a deal there will be hurt all round but mostly ours. All we are doing is threatening to leave the party with the six pack we’ve brought and pour it down the drain, while they’ve got plenty of wine in the back room.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,902
    Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All it’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    Yes. That's where I am with all this as well.

    I presume Merkel has given her blessing to an A50 extension of a few weeks or months but to what end? May still looks opposed to a second vote for obvious reasons and there looks no prospect of a meaningful change to the WA which would help it clear the Commons.

    Presumably the mutual terror of No Deal has brought the UK and the EU back together.
  • I’m disappointed I’m only 67% privileged. I’ll never live it down.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    I see Labour has clarified the position re second referendum - classic Jezza

    I see the news re Hezbollah too.

    Labour 2019

    https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/

  • ydoethur said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    "The Intersectionality Score Calculator":

    https://intersectionalityscore.com

    Only gay/straight? And Chriistian/Muslim or Jewish?
    #buddhistbisexualerasure
    Bloody aphobes.

    And what about those who speak English as their fifth language? (I teach one girl who speaks Persian, Farsi. Arabic and French as her first languages - and her English is still nearly as good as mine!)
    Persian is Farsi .
    What language do they speak in Afghanistan then? It is that one. Do I mean Pashtun instead of Persian?

    (That may be my deafness causing confusion.)
    They speak Persian in Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan. Except in Afghanistan, it's called Dari, and in Tajikistan it's called Tajik.

    The other main language of Afghanistan is Pashto, which is also spoken in the frontier regions of Pakistan.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All it’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    I don't think it should be any surprise to anyone that May has opted for the choice that moves the decision three months down the track. The strategy of winning by exhaustion is still playing out.
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    I agree with you. But unfortunately that doesn't mean "threaten Leave with No Deal" will work either.
    No it won't. Hence why I didnt use the word threaten that you're putting into quotation marks.
    It's not surprising that you did not use the word, because I was describing the alternative to your approach. If you deprecate "down", it is permissible for me to mention "up".
    It sounded like you were quoting it as my approach.

    Yes threatening to leave without a deal without being prepared to really do so is nuts.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    stodge said:

    I presume Merkel has given her blessing to an A50 extension of a few weeks or months but to what end?

    It uses up the extension route, which is the excuse MPs are using for refusing to make a decision.

    In 2/3 months time MPs have the same decision to make. They'll try for a referendum then, but won't get it.
  • Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All it’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    It's worse than that, companies which have made preparations in case of no deal at end of March (eg car manufacturers bringing their annual shut down forward to the first week of April instead) have now seen their plans destroyed while still bringing us no closer to a deal.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    I’m disappointed I’m only 67% privileged. I’ll never live it down.

    I’m only 57% privileged. Apparently.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited February 2019
    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    I didn't say threaten to leave ... I said be prepared to leave ... Do you understand the difference?
    What is the difference in practice? How does one communicate one’s preparation to the counterparty without the, implicit or explicit, threat?

    They don’t care. They really don’t. It’s as much a political thing as an economic thing to them. They’ve known about the possibility of us leaving for six years. And it’s got us the deal on the table now. And if we leave without a deal there will be hurt all round but mostly ours. All we are doing is threatening to leave the party with the six pack we’ve brought and pour it down the drain, while they’ve got plenty of wine in the back room.
    One communicates it by being serious and not screaming about how utterly unacceptable no deal is and how it can't happen.

    So lets leave and have our own party and drink our own six pack. No problems.
  • Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All it’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    Hey, I like Waiting For Godot! Saw a brilliant production of it once - Ian McKellen, Ronald Pickup and Matthew Kelly. Outstanding.

    And quite a lot does happen. Not at all like Brexit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    That’s shocking. I thought that none of the state schools in Dundee or surrounding areas teaching economics was bad but maths is surely a core subject for 75%+ of those going to university.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All bit’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    I don't think it should be any surprise to anyone that May has opted for the choice that moves the decision three months down the track. The strategy of winning by exhaustion is still playing out.
    But how can that be, if the Deal has again been voted down and the EU won’t renegotiate it? We’re back to No Deal, aren’t we? Or is this just cover for saying we remain if Parliament won’t vote for any form of Leave?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    eek said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Nice to see Remain’s allies are keeping up their good work.

    https://twitter.com/leavemnsleave/status/1100313986615123968?s=21

    That's hilarious!

    I’ll admit to now being completely baffled. Are these no marks campaigning to make sure the European elections ARE held? Why??
    Because we'll still be members so entitled to vote in them. The quote says if Article 50 is extended.

    If we're still members on election day (or at least first day of the new Parliament) we should get a vote. Can't just pretend we're not members anymore even though we are.
    That is right as far as it goes but what is in it for Leave Mean's Leave? What if it turns into a proxy second referendum?
    Suspect that's excactly what's in it for LML - they'd want to use it as an anti-Remain protest vote. And it's a ploy I could see working - there is little doubt that the people who feel most strongly about Europe are the arch-Leavers.

    I can't see the UK having another vote in EU elections unless and until a 2nd Ref has voted Remain though.
    Thats going to require some political manoeuvring beyond even the Maybot's skills. The elections should be held between May 20 and 26th yet the earliest we could have a second referendum is sometime in October
    Did I read somewhere that the UK's seats had been shared out amongst the other member states, and that there is a cap on the total number of seats in the EU parliament?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875

    I’m disappointed I’m only 67% privileged. I’ll never live it down.


    Commiserations Alastair. Will I perchance find a survey down thread?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Hey, I like Waiting For Godot! Saw a brilliant production of it once - Ian McKellen, Ronald Pickup and Matthew Kelly. Outstanding.

    And quite a lot does happen. Not at all like Brexit.

    Ian McKellen, Patrick Stewart and Simon Callow
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All bit’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    I don't think it should be any surprise to anyone that May has opted for the choice that moves the decision three months down the track. The strategy of winning by exhaustion is still playing out.
    But how can that be, if the Deal has again been voted down and the EU won’t renegotiate it? We’re back to No Deal, aren’t we? Or is this just cover for saying we remain if Parliament won’t vote for any form of Leave?
    Why the fuck doesn't she just agree to a vote on her deal that has to be ratified by a public referendum?

    I suspect she'd win both a HoC vote on that basis and probably the referendum too... And if the deal is rejected by a 2nd referendum, well then the country has voted to Remain, so what's the issue?
  • Scott_P said:

    Hey, I like Waiting For Godot! Saw a brilliant production of it once - Ian McKellen, Ronald Pickup and Matthew Kelly. Outstanding.

    And quite a lot does happen. Not at all like Brexit.

    Ian McKellen, Patrick Stewart and Simon Callow
    That may have been the original cast. Was definitely Pickup and Kelly when I saw it. Kelly all but stole the show.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    Scott_P said:
    It's not Brexit. Brexit is taking back control not the EU keeping control unless they deign to release us from their yoke.
    If I was in the ERG I'd be be increasingly moving towards, take what's on the table now, take a de jure Brexit which ends FoM.

    Longer term complete the takeover of the party, purge / deselect the remainer MPs and look to push further away over the next decade.

    Labour is still a shambles, time is on their side,
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136
    Scott_P said:

    Hey, I like Waiting For Godot! Saw a brilliant production of it once - Ian McKellen, Ronald Pickup and Matthew Kelly. Outstanding.

    And quite a lot does happen. Not at all like Brexit.

    Ian McKellen, Patrick Stewart and Simon Callow
    Many years ago the Open University did a program on the play, and the clips they showed were from the 1977 Max Wall/Leo McKern/Graham Crowden version
  • eek said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Nice to see Remain’s allies are keeping up their good work.

    https://twitter.com/leavemnsleave/status/1100313986615123968?s=21

    That's hilarious!

    I’ll admit to now being completely baffled. Are these no marks campaigning to make sure the European elections ARE held? Why??
    Because we'll still be members so entitled to vote in them. The quote says if Article 50 is extended.

    If we're still members on election day (or at least first day of the new Parliament) we should get a vote. Can't just pretend we're not members anymore even though we are.
    That is right as far as it goes but what is in it for Leave Mean's Leave? What if it turns into a proxy second referendum?
    Suspect that's excactly what's in it for LML - they'd want to use it as an anti-Remain protest vote. And it's a ploy I could see working - there is little doubt that the people who feel most strongly about Europe are the arch-Leavers.

    I can't see the UK having another vote in EU elections unless and until a 2nd Ref has voted Remain though.
    Thats going to require some political manoeuvring beyond even the Maybot's skills. The elections should be held between May 20 and 26th yet the earliest we could have a second referendum is sometime in October
    Did I read somewhere that the UK's seats had been shared out amongst the other member states, and that there is a cap on the total number of seats in the EU parliament?
    Yes, but most of the UK's seats have been kept in reserve for countries that intend to join in future, so the existing member states don't get much of a bonus. And the new allocation specifically happens only if brexit goes through.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    The polytechnics were already degree awarding institutions - ie CNN degrees. Why was there any need or desire to convert them into universities - a move which has caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    DavidL said:

    I’m disappointed I’m only 67% privileged. I’ll never live it down.


    Commiserations Alastair. Will I perchance find a survey down thread?
    Ha! 65% yah snob!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    That may have been the original cast. Was definitely Pickup and Kelly when I saw it. Kelly all but stole the show.

    Yes, I think it was the same tour.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Forecasting how this all ends is a mugs game . If someone had said 3 days ago May would stand there and say MPs can vote to take no deal off the table for March 29 and request an extension nobody would have believed it .

    Political commentators continue to embarrass themselves . We’re living in strange times .
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    viewcode said:

    Many years ago the Open University did a program on the play, and the clips they showed were from the 1977 Max Wall/Leo McKern/Graham Crowden version

    I have a vague memory of seeing a production on TV with Bill Owen (compo) but I may have imagined it
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    I didn't say threaten to leave ... I said be prepared to leave ... Do you understand the difference?
    What is the difference in practice? How does one communicate one’s preparation to the counterparty without the, implicit or explicit, threat?

    They don’t care. They really don’t. It’s as much a political thing as an economic thing to them. They’ve known about the possibility of us leaving for six years. And it’s got us the deal on the table now. And if we leave without a deal there will be hurt all round but mostly ours. All we are doing is threatening to leave the party with the six pack we’ve brought and pour it down the drain, while they’ve got plenty of wine in the back room.
    One communicates it by being serious and not screaming about how utterly unacceptable no deal is and how it can't happen.

    So lets leave and have our own party and drink our own six pack. No problems.
    If you think that drinking a six pack of lager on your own is not a problem, and somehow beats being at a party with other people, then I can’t help you.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All it’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    Hey, I like Waiting For Godot! Saw a brilliant production of it once - Ian McKellen, Ronald Pickup and Matthew Kelly. Outstanding.

    And quite a lot does happen. Not at all like Brexit.
    I saw an absolutely dire one in the West End some years back. Put me right off.

    Though I did like this exchange (I paraphrase):-

    “Am I boring you.”

    “No. I wasn’t listening.”

    Which pretty much describes the UK-EU negotiations.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    The polytechnics were already degree awarding institutions - ie CNN degrees. Why was there any need or desire to convert them into universities - a move which has caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?.
    Because they were seen as 2nd class institutions.

    Why has the removal caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    Yeah, like I said yesterday it was never a credible bluff. Now we have shoved in all our chips and are sitting on a pair of dueces...
    No, we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, they know that we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, but they also know that they are in fact a pair of aces and have been hoping all along that we don't wake up to the fact.
    So, a household savings rate at an all time low, a country that has managed to go from substantial net creditor to the world to net debtor in record time, a debt-to-gdp level fifty points about 2007 levels, a current account deficit that is growing again, and worsening demographics are "a pair of aces"?

    We are a great country. We have amazing things in front of us. But we're also the most chronically unbalanced economy in the world right now. We're Spain in 2007.

    That might be a "pair of aces" to you, but to me it spells enormous risk.
  • I really struggle to get my head around what the hell has happened to the Left. Maybe they have always been this nasty and sick?

    I don't remember hating Jews being high on the list of activities when Benn and Foot were trying to run Labour.

    What has happened?

    https://twitter.com/wizbates/status/1100473788133769224
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    Yeah, like I said yesterday it was never a credible bluff. Now we have shoved in all our chips and are sitting on a pair of dueces...
    No, we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, they know that we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, but they also know that they are in fact a pair of aces and have been hoping all along that we don't wake up to the fact.
    So, a household savings rate at an all time low, a country that has managed to go from substantial net creditor to the world to net debtor in record time, a debt-to-gdp level fifty points about 2007 levels, a current account deficit that is growing again, and worsening demographics are "a pair of aces"?

    We are a great country. We have amazing things in front of us. But we're also the most chronically unbalanced economy in the world right now. We're Spain in 2007.

    That might be a "pair of aces" to you, but to me it spells enormous risk.
    Aces or dueces... never forget that 'we hold all the cards' :wink:
  • justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    The polytechnics were already degree awarding institutions - ie CNN degrees. Why was there any need or desire to convert them into universities - a move which has caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?.
    Because they were seen as 2nd class institutions.

    Why has the removal caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?
    Cos there all a bit fik?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    I really struggle to get my head around what the hell has happened to the Left. Maybe they have always been this nasty and sick?

    I don't remember hating Jews being high on the list of activities when Benn and Foot were trying to run Labour.

    What has happened?

    https://twitter.com/wizbates/status/1100473788133769224

    They've turned from Methodists to Stalinists.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    nico67 said:

    Forecasting how this all ends is a mugs game . If someone had said 3 days ago May would stand there and say MPs can vote to take no deal off the table for March 29 and request an extension nobody would have believed it .

    Political commentators continue to embarrass themselves . We’re living in strange times .

    The whole thing is unbelievable.

    If there had been even a hint that two years down the road we'd be planning for food and medicine shortages and a whole host of other catastrophes, Leave would never have got a look in.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    Not surprising - AS level maths is hard enough and we were told today (Parents evening) that the A2 bit is harder with less preceding knowledge that you can fall back on...
    Sadly they're right, as discussed before.
    The history department in my Son's school is running a marketing campaign the key element of which is that they can pretty much guarantee an A in the higher and the results back them up. Anyone of any ability such as my son is being lent on quite hard. In his case it’s not going to work: the course is just too boring. I find that sad. It takes real dedication and focus to make most history boring.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    What May has done doesn’t seem to me to have changed or improved matters. All it’s done is postponed the decision.

    And it doesn’t explain what the purpose of the extension would be. If the deal has been voted down as has No Deal what is supposed to happen during the extension?

    Either have a second referendum or revoke the bloody thing. This is getting as tiresome as Waiting for Godot.

    Hey, I like Waiting For Godot! Saw a brilliant production of it once - Ian McKellen, Ronald Pickup and Matthew Kelly. Outstanding.

    And quite a lot does happen. Not at all like Brexit.
    I saw an absolutely dire one in the West End some years back. Put me right off.

    Though I did like this exchange (I paraphrase):-

    “Am I boring you.”

    “No. I wasn’t listening.”

    Which pretty much describes the UK-EU negotiations.
    Davis: That passed the time.
    Barnier: It would have passed in any case.
    Davis: Yes, but not so rapidly...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    I really struggle to get my head around what the hell has happened to the Left. Maybe they have always been this nasty and sick?

    I don't remember hating Jews being high on the list of activities when Benn and Foot were trying to run Labour.

    What has happened?

    https://twitter.com/wizbates/status/1100473788133769224

    The Far Left has taken over. It has never been shy about being anti-semitic. No-one noticed or cared because it was confined to dark corners. Now it’s out in the light and it’s not a pretty sight. Why do you think previous mainstream Labour leaders fought so hard to keep the Far Left out?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    Yeah, like I said yesterday it was never a credible bluff. Now we have shoved in all our chips and are sitting on a pair of dueces...
    No, we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, they know that we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, but they also know that they are in fact a pair of aces and have been hoping all along that we don't wake up to the fact.
    So, a household savings rate at an all time low, a country that has managed to go from substantial net creditor to the world to net debtor in record time, a debt-to-gdp level fifty points about 2007 levels, a current account deficit that is growing again, and worsening demographics are "a pair of aces"?

    We are a great country. We have amazing things in front of us. But we're also the most chronically unbalanced economy in the world right now. We're Spain in 2007.

    That might be a "pair of aces" to you, but to me it spells enormous risk.
    Aces or dueces... never forget that 'we hold all the cards' :wink:
    Please, guys, DEUCES, before another solecism entrenches itself.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    The polytechnics were already degree awarding institutions - ie CNN degrees. Why was there any need or desire to convert them into universities - a move which has caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?.
    Because they were seen as 2nd class institutions.

    Why has the removal caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?
    Cos there all a bit fik?
    I guess the Polys could be reinstated for the very brightest state kids and 'proper' Unis kept back for the deserving* private school kids?

    (*= all)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Please, guys, DEUCES, before another solecism entrenches itself.

    Calm down, deud !
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    I didn't say threaten to leave ... I said be prepared to leave ... Do you understand the difference?
    I've spent the last three years on this board arguing that we need to do everything we can to prepare for No Deal Brexit.

    That is, we need to build the infrastructure and roll over the agreements with out trading partners outside the EU, to make threats to walk away more credible.

    We have, basically, done fuck all. We've managed to roll over Switzerland and South Africa. We've got mutual standards recognition agreed with the US (albeit they've refused to roll over the existing dispute resolution mechanism, because it was too balanced). We're going to get half a dozen more.

    But there are dozens of agreements we've failed to replicate. We've built fuck all in the way of infrastructure. We've not hired the people needed to handle either everyone from the EU and most of EFTA requiring a landing card, or to check goods and services. Ships taking Aston Martins to Korea right now have no idea if we'll still be covered by the existing EU FTA when they arrive.

    We've done nothing to deal with the potential drop out of the EU's rules against double taxation and withholding tax, that will dramatically reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a centre for European holding companies. (And which, by the way, is perfectly solvable: it just takes 18 months, not oohhhh... five weeks.)

    We haven't even published our planned tariff schedule for a post No Deal Brexit.

    We can leave with No Deal. It would always have been somewhat painful, but the lack of preparation means it will be extremely painful.

    Your call.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    Yeah, like I said yesterday it was never a credible bluff. Now we have shoved in all our chips and are sitting on a pair of dueces...
    No, we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, they know that we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, but they also know that they are in fact a pair of aces and have been hoping all along that we don't wake up to the fact.
    So, a household savings rate at an all time low, a country that has managed to go from substantial net creditor to the world to net debtor in record time, a debt-to-gdp level fifty points about 2007 levels, a current account deficit that is growing again, and worsening demographics are "a pair of aces"?

    We are a great country. We have amazing things in front of us. But we're also the most chronically unbalanced economy in the world right now. We're Spain in 2007.

    That might be a "pair of aces" to you, but to me it spells enormous risk.
    Aces or dueces... never forget that 'we hold all the cards' :wink:
    So we are playing canasta and the other side has just declared, gone out and won?
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    Looks like we are going to remain. It was always the plan of the remainders to bring us to this place by ensuring a crap deal that wouldn’t get through parliament , ruling out no deal and then narrowing options until only remain is possible . It’s a total stitch up of democracy
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Ishmael_Z said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    Yeah, like I said yesterday it was never a credible bluff. Now we have shoved in all our chips and are sitting on a pair of dueces...
    No, we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, they know that we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, but they also know that they are in fact a pair of aces and have been hoping all along that we don't wake up to the fact.
    So, a household savings rate at an all time low, a country that has managed to go from substantial net creditor to the world to net debtor in record time, a debt-to-gdp level fifty points about 2007 levels, a current account deficit that is growing again, and worsening demographics are "a pair of aces"?

    We are a great country. We have amazing things in front of us. But we're also the most chronically unbalanced economy in the world right now. We're Spain in 2007.

    That might be a "pair of aces" to you, but to me it spells enormous risk.
    Aces or dueces... never forget that 'we hold all the cards' :wink:
    Please, guys, DEUCES, before another solecism entrenches itself.
    I just followed suit. :wink:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    kjohnw said:

    Looks like we are going to remain. It was always the plan of the remainders to bring us to this place by ensuring a crap deal that wouldn’t get through parliament , ruling out no deal and then narrowing options until only remain is possible . It’s a total stitch up of democracy

    Cry me a river mate.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    I didn't say threaten to leave ... I said be prepared to leave ... Do you understand the difference?
    I've spent the last three years on this board arguing that we need to do everything we can to prepare for No Deal Brexit.

    That is, we need to build the infrastructure and roll over the agreements with out trading partners outside the EU, to make threats to walk away more credible.

    We have, basically, done fuck all. We've managed to roll over Switzerland and South Africa. We've got mutual standards recognition agreed with the US (albeit they've refused to roll over the existing dispute resolution mechanism, because it was too balanced). We're going to get half a dozen more.

    But there are dozens of agreements we've failed to replicate. We've built fuck all in the way of infrastructure. We've not hired the people needed to handle either everyone from the EU and most of EFTA requiring a landing card, or to check goods and services. Ships taking Aston Martins to Korea right now have no idea if we'll still be covered by the existing EU FTA when they arrive.

    We've done nothing to deal with the potential drop out of the EU's rules against double taxation and withholding tax, that will dramatically reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a centre for European holding companies. (And which, by the way, is perfectly solvable: it just takes 18 months, not oohhhh... five weeks.)

    We haven't even published our planned tariff schedule for a post No Deal Brexit.

    We can leave with No Deal. It would always have been somewhat painful, but the lack of preparation means it will be extremely painful.

    Your call.
    Fortunately it's not his call.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    They will certainly not give us what we want when they take the view that the PM, her lead negotiator, most of her Cabinet, the majority of her MPs and the vast majority of all MPs have absolutely no intention of letting the UK leave under WTO terms and would rather the UK stay in the EU under those or indeed any circumstances.
    Yeah, like I said yesterday it was never a credible bluff. Now we have shoved in all our chips and are sitting on a pair of dueces...
    No, we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, they know that we think we are sitting on a pair of dueces, but they also know that they are in fact a pair of aces and have been hoping all along that we don't wake up to the fact.
    So, a household savings rate at an all time low, a country that has managed to go from substantial net creditor to the world to net debtor in record time, a debt-to-gdp level fifty points about 2007 levels, a current account deficit that is growing again, and worsening demographics are "a pair of aces"?

    We are a great country. We have amazing things in front of us. But we're also the most chronically unbalanced economy in the world right now. We're Spain in 2007.

    That might be a "pair of aces" to you, but to me it spells enormous risk.
    I think that is overstating it a bit Robert. Over the last 9 years we have reduced government borrowing per year by well in excess of £100bn. That in itself is equivalent to a significantly higher savings rate overall. Earnings are being underestimated, hence the bumper January, so we are saving more than it appears. The slow down in house purchases, particularly among the young, means mortgage debt has been sliding back.

    Consumption is being driven by high employment and high confidence that other options are available in a very strong jobs market. It is rational to be willing to take on more unsecured debt in these circumstances.

    I wish we were investing more but there’s many a country just across the channel which would give their eye teeth to have our problems.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,191

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    The old pots used to provide excellent vocational education and some of them do still provide courses geared to the world of work but they need to be more commonplace
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    I didn't say threaten to leave ... I said be prepared to leave ... Do you understand the difference?
    I've spent the last three years on this board arguing that we need to do everything we can to prepare for No Deal Brexit.

    That is, we need to build the infrastructure and roll over the agreements with out trading partners outside the EU, to make threats to walk away more credible.

    We have, basically, done fuck all. We've managed to roll over Switzerland and South Africa. We've got mutual standards recognition agreed with the US (albeit they've refused to roll over the existing dispute resolution mechanism, because it was too balanced). We're going to get half a dozen more.

    But there are dozens of agreements we've failed to replicate. We've built fuck all in the way of infrastructure. We've not hired the people needed to handle either everyone from the EU and most of EFTA requiring a landing card, or to check goods and services. Ships taking Aston Martins to Korea right now have no idea if we'll still be covered by the existing EU FTA when they arrive.

    We've done nothing to deal with the potential drop out of the EU's rules against double taxation and withholding tax, that will dramatically reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a centre for European holding companies. (And which, by the way, is perfectly solvable: it just takes 18 months, not oohhhh... five weeks.)

    We haven't even published our planned tariff schedule for a post No Deal Brexit.

    We can leave with No Deal. It would always have been somewhat painful, but the lack of preparation means it will be extremely painful.

    Your call.
    Fortunately it's not his call.
    Thank God.
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    Not surprising - AS level maths is hard enough and we were told today (Parents evening) that the A2 bit is harder with less preceding knowledge that you can fall back on...
    Sadly they're right, as discussed before.
    The history department in my Son's school is running a marketing campaign the key element of which is that they can pretty much guarantee an A in the higher and the results back them up. Anyone of any ability such as my son is being lent on quite hard. In his case it’s not going to work: the course is just too boring. I find that sad. It takes real dedication and focus to make most history boring.
    Not sure why ICT should be so hard. What have they put in it? Loads of computational maths?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited February 2019
    kjohnw said:

    Looks like we are going to remain. It was always the plan of the remainders to bring us to this place by ensuring a crap deal that wouldn’t get through parliament , ruling out no deal and then narrowing options until only remain is possible . It’s a total stitch up of democracy

    If that's what does happen we'll just have to explore all other (democratic) avenues to ensure we get what we voted for.

    Obviously the Tories will split and there will be Farage's Brexit Party so there will be at least two parties willing to commit to leaving as part of their manifestos...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    kjohnw said:

    Looks like we are going to remain. It was always the plan of the remainders to bring us to this place by ensuring a crap deal that wouldn’t get through parliament , ruling out no deal and then narrowing options until only remain is possible . It’s a total stitch up of democracy

    That's why another vote is needed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,191
    kjohnw said:

    Looks like we are going to remain. It was always the plan of the remainders to bring us to this place by ensuring a crap deal that wouldn’t get through parliament , ruling out no deal and then narrowing options until only remain is possible . It’s a total stitch up of democracy

    Too many Labour MPs from Leave seats will vote for May's Deal over EUref2 for the latter to be likely but we could face indefinite extension of Article 50
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    Forecasting how this all ends is a mugs game . If someone had said 3 days ago May would stand there and say MPs can vote to take no deal off the table for March 29 and request an extension nobody would have believed it .

    Political commentators continue to embarrass themselves . We’re living in strange times .

    The whole thing is unbelievable.

    If there had been even a hint that two years down the road we'd be planning for food and medicine shortages and a whole host of other catastrophes, Leave would never have got a look in.
    Agreed , even more tragic now is that some Leave voters are saying when they voted that meant no deal . When it’s clear Vote Leave promised the moon on a stick . Even more disgusting IMO is how the Brexit Death Cult is now seeking to get some MPs deselected if they actually support Mays deal . Apparently only total adherence to the no deal cult is allowed . Just wanting an orderly exit is now seen as heresy !
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    ... the only way to get the EU to concede on the backstop is to be prepared to go to No Deal...

    Seriously? You still believe that? This has been going on for years. Cameron's Bloomberg speech was six years ago. For years we've been banging on that if we threaten to Leave, or threaten to Leave with No Deal, they will give us what we want. It hasn't worked once.

    I didn't say threaten to leave ... I said be prepared to leave ... Do you understand the difference?

    I've spent the last three years on this board arguing that we need to do everything we can to prepare for No Deal Brexit.

    That is, we need to build the infrastructure and roll over the agreements with out trading partners outside the EU, to make threats to walk away more credible.

    We have, basically, done fuck all. We've managed to roll over Switzerland and South Africa. We've got mutual standards recognition agreed with the US (albeit they've refused to roll over the existing dispute resolution mechanism, because it was too balanced). We're going to get half a dozen more.

    But there are dozens of agreements we've failed to replicate. We've built fuck all in the way of infrastructure. We've not hired the people needed to handle either everyone from the EU and most of EFTA requiring a landing card, or to check goods and services. Ships taking Aston Martins to Korea right now have no idea if we'll still be covered by the existing EU FTA when they arrive.

    We've done nothing to deal with the potential drop out of the EU's rules against double taxation and withholding tax, that will dramatically reduce the attractiveness of the UK as a centre for European holding companies. (And which, by the way, is perfectly solvable: it just takes 18 months, not oohhhh... five weeks.)

    We haven't even published our planned tariff schedule for a post No Deal Brexit.

    We can leave with No Deal. It would always have been somewhat painful, but the lack of ipreparation means it will be extremely painful.

    Your call.
    It’s almost as if the government never considered it a serious option isn’t it? How they expected anyone else to take the idea seriously when they didn’t escapes me.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172



    I guess the Polys could be reinstated for the very brightest state kids and 'proper' Unis kept back for the deserving* private school kids?

    (*= all)

    I think it is very likely, as University entrance becomes increasingly international, that our best Universities will become more and more dominated by students from countries with fully functioning educational systems.

    As coincidentally, the BBC reported today:

    http://tinyurl.com/y5sur8yu

    After all, if you are a mathematics tutor, it doesn’t sound very attractive to admit a student from Cannock (with no A Level Maths courses according to YDoethur) when you could admit someone from Scandinavia or Germany or South Korea or China who has been very well taught in mathematics.

    If you are admitting students based on ability, then this means you will admit fewer and fewer UK based students.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Scott_P said:
    It's not Brexit. Brexit is taking back control not the EU keeping control unless they deign to release us from their yoke.
    It is absolutely Brexit. You do no one any favours by pretending otherwise. Say it is an insufficient Brexit, sure, but if we legally leave at the end it is still leaving, even if one feels it barely worthy of the name. It would be a straight up lie to say it is not Brexit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    Not surprising - AS level maths is hard enough and we were told today (Parents evening) that the A2 bit is harder with less preceding knowledge that you can fall back on...
    Sadly they're right, as discussed before.
    The history department in my Son's school is running a marketing campaign the key element of which is that they can pretty much guarantee an A in the higher and the results back them up. Anyone of any ability such as my son is being lent on quite hard. In his case it’s not going to work: the course is just too boring. I find that sad. It takes real dedication and focus to make most history boring.
    Not sure why ICT should be so hard. What have they put in it? Loads of computational maths?
    You’ll need to @Ydoethur. My son is doing Computing as one of his highers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    He does seem to have missed an easy way to avoid that scenario. What could it be?
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    Scott_P said:
    Time for the ERG and Brexit tories to defect to the brexit party and VNOC the government
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    kle4 said:

    He does seem to have missed an easy way to avoid that scenario. What could it be?
    Could be simples. Could be capitulation to the hated chequers.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Just like everybody else i can’t agree with OGH header. Mike its not as simple as saying there’s remainers and leavers, there’s plenty of leavers who wont be fobbed off with BINO, chequers or Norway, who’d rather say remain and continue an honest fight than accept vassalage fudge as brexit and move on.

    Today has been a particularly bad day for May and her deal. A bad day for business and long suffering brexit weary Britain.

    The simple equation for me is does May’s triumph today impact my horde of custard. The answer is yes. I will now eat it with the pies of July rather than pies of April. No deal chaos is still on the menu, only at the other end more months of inscrutable economy shredding cowardly indecision can kicking mediocrity.

    Soon as May announced the delay I felt a bad vibe about it. May takes a lot of stick, however May has always been right, just as she was yesterday to say what would we be doing during extension, delay that’s just delay merely prolonging the pain without good reason to have pain and delay, it merely postpones the make your mind up time, merely extends the uncertainty, and the double whammy is, where you were pressuring concessions from others you no longer are. The 12th of March is meaningless now twelfth June is in play.

    I am embarrassed for anyone saying she has played a blinder here, I’m embarrassed for anyone thinking no deal is off the table or anyway less likely to happen, no deal is not off the table, the economy shredding uncertainty just goes on, and goes on shredding Britain through three spring months.

    The suggestion she has stood up to and beat the ERG by caving to the remainers is laughable. It’s a decision that is actually worst of all worlds. It achieves nothing. It causes more pain. It diminishes her word. It takes pressure off EU.

    She should have called out the remainers threatening her, telling them wait till the 12th or resign at leisure .

    Here’s several deflated emoticons ☹️. ☹️. ☹️.

    So sad for Britain and the British people.
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    Not surprising - AS level maths is hard enough and we were told today (Parents evening) that the A2 bit is harder with less preceding knowledge that you can fall back on...
    Sadly they're right, as discussed before.
    The history department in my Son's school is running a marketing campaign the key element of which is that they can pretty much guarantee an A in the higher and the results back them up. Anyone of any ability such as my son is being lent on quite hard. In his case it’s not going to work: the course is just too boring. I find that sad. It takes real dedication and focus to make most history boring.
    Not sure why ICT should be so hard. What have they put in it? Loads of computational maths?
    ICT A Level was abolished during the last round of A Level reform. There's only Computer Science/Computing A level, which is mainly programming, the Maths isn't too hard. However, there are insufficient teachers coming in through training routes, so some schools are attempting to deliver it using Business/ex ICT teachers, hence poor results.

    It isn't like Maths teachers can skill up, as we don't have enough of those either.

    Recruitment/retention of staff is an absolute disaster across England, and pupil numbers will rise steadily over the next 5 to 10 years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    For some time it has been clear the any actual ERG approved deal would not be possible to be achieved, or would not have enough votes from others to pass anyway. Therefore it naturally follows either the ERG would have to stymie everything in the hopes of no deal, or May/Parliament would at some point have to face down the ERG as the only things that could get passed would seriously annoy the ERG.

    I know why there has been reluctance to confront them - for one thing their position is not actually that unpopular outside the Commons - but something has to give.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    He does seem to have missed an easy way to avoid that scenario. What could it be?
    Could be simples. Could be capitulation to the hated chequers.
    I thought chequers was a dead unicorn at this point?
  • Cyclefree said:

    I really struggle to get my head around what the hell has happened to the Left. Maybe they have always been this nasty and sick?

    I don't remember hating Jews being high on the list of activities when Benn and Foot were trying to run Labour.

    What has happened?

    https://twitter.com/wizbates/status/1100473788133769224

    The Far Left has taken over. It has never been shy about being anti-semitic. No-one noticed or cared because it was confined to dark corners. Now it’s out in the light and it’s not a pretty sight. Why do you think previous mainstream Labour leaders fought so hard to keep the Far Left out?
    This. The far left believe in Class War. That their people are already bruised and bloodied by the Powers That Be. So making them more bruised and bloodied is ok if it's done to make them rise up.

    That such amoral batshit stupidity has infested my party makes it so much harder for me to condemn the amoral batshit stupidity in the Tories
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Let’s say it’s a choice between no deal and a second EU ref to confirm Mays deal what happens .

    What do Labour MPs do in Leave seats , what do more moderate Tories do . What do the DUP do ?

    The problem for the ERG is that if May does manage some changes to the backstop which also changes the legal advice and they move the goalposts again the anger amongst saner Tories will cause a huge backlash .

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Time for the ERG and Brexit tories to defect to the brexit party and VNOC the government
    Not sure about the VONC yet but if A50 is revoked or of we end up with another referendum with remain on the ballot paper then obviously Brexiteer Tories must split and take 80% of Con members with them.

    Whether they form their own party or join up with Farage's Brexit Party is another matter...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    This is the most incompetent and dysfunctional government of my adult life. As someone who generally votes Tory I get no satisfaction from saying this, indeed it causes me deep dismay, but there is no getting away from it.

    From utterly inept negotiations, failing to have the necessary statutory framework on the books for any scenario, failing to prepare for no deal, failing to make arrangements with most of our trading partners weeks before we are supposed to leave, constantly postponing decisions with no regard to the real world consequences, I could go on all night. The worst in my lifetime. Fact.

    And the alternative, god help us, looks worse.
  • DavidL said:

    This is the most incompetent and dysfunctional government of my adult life. As someone who generally votes Tory I get no satisfaction from saying this, indeed it causes me deep dismay, but there is no getting away from it.

    From utterly inept negotiations, failing to have the necessary statutory framework on the books for any scenario, failing to prepare for no deal, failing to make arrangements with most of our trading partners weeks before we are supposed to leave, constantly postponing decisions with no regard to the real world consequences, I could go on all night. The worst in my lifetime. Fact.

    And the alternative, god help us, looks worse.

    Gordon Brown in his prime, or Robin Cook, would have taken this government to pieces.

    By the time they had finished even Tory back benchers would be begging for a GE to end it all.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited February 2019
    DavidL said:

    This is the most incompetent and dysfunctional government of my adult life. As someone who generally votes Tory I get no satisfaction from saying this, indeed it causes me deep dismay, but there is no getting away from it.

    From utterly inept negotiations, failing to have the necessary statutory framework on the books for any scenario, failing to prepare for no deal, failing to make arrangements with most of our trading partners weeks before we are supposed to leave, constantly postponing decisions with no regard to the real world consequences, I could go on all night. The worst in my lifetime. Fact.

    And the alternative, god help us, looks worse.

    Was obvious from the election shambles.

    Con needed to get rid of May on 8th June 2017, elect a new leader and have a September/October 2017 general election to try and get their majority back.

    Was obvious that on the numbers May had nothing would be possible and the government would lurch from one disaster to another, which is exactly what has happened.
  • GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Time for the ERG and Brexit tories to defect to the brexit party and VNOC the government
    Not sure about the VONC yet but if A50 is revoked or of we end up with another referendum with remain on the ballot paper then obviously Brexiteer Tories must split and take 80% of Con members with them.

    Whether they form their own party or join up with Farage's Brexit Party is another matter...
    May is dreaming again. There is no consensus to forge. She has tried and tried again. It 'aint there.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    DavidL said:

    This is the most incompetent and dysfunctional government of my adult life. As someone who generally votes Tory I get no satisfaction from saying this, indeed it causes me deep dismay, but there is no getting away from it.

    From utterly inept negotiations, failing to have the necessary statutory framework on the books for any scenario, failing to prepare for no deal, failing to make arrangements with most of our trading partners weeks before we are supposed to leave, constantly postponing decisions with no regard to the real world consequences, I could go on all night. The worst in my lifetime. Fact.

    And the alternative, god help us, looks worse.

    Whatever happens we are screwed . RIP UK
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited February 2019
    nico67 said:

    Let’s say it’s a choice between no deal and a second EU ref to confirm Mays deal what happens .

    What do Labour MPs do in Leave seats , what do more moderate Tories do . What do the DUP do ?

    The problem for the ERG is that if May does manage some changes to the backstop which also changes the legal advice and they move the goalposts again the anger amongst saner Tories will cause a huge backlash .

    Faced with that choice I think quite a few moderate Tories would jump.

    But they won't be faced with that choice, because they can postpone.

    Postponing a few times first also makes it politically easier for moderate Tories to ultimately vote for a Deal-Remain PV, because they can rightly claim that they need to do it to make Brexit happen.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I have just been told that the largest school in Cannock will not be offering A-levels in maths or ICT next year as they are so bloody hard to get a decent grade in nobody is choosing them. (No, not my school.)

    This is madness. And it will not end well. Indeed, it has already ended rather badly.

    We need to make universities elite again so only 10% of children go to university.

    Abolish the old polys.
    The polytechnics were already degree awarding institutions - ie CNN degrees. Why was there any need or desire to convert them into universities - a move which has caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?.
    Because they were seen as 2nd class institutions.

    Why has the removal caused confusion for many without previous family experience of Higher Education?
    Because quite a few of them do not offer courses comparable in quality to the degree courses provided by the traditional universities.To many people from a background without previous experience of Higher Education ' a degree is a degree' and there is little understanding of the hierarchy which in reality exists re-such qualifications. As a result many enroll on courses expecting something far more valuable than actually emerges at the end - having incurred significant debt for little gain. On the other hand, some of the Polys were very good - Lanchester - Hatfield - Portsmouth come to mind - and have developed sufficiently so as to be now viewed as bona fide universities.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    Looks like we are going to remain. It was always the plan of the remainders to bring us to this place by ensuring a crap deal that wouldn’t get through parliament , ruling out no deal and then narrowing options until only remain is possible . It’s a total stitch up of democracy

    Too many Labour MPs from Leave seats will vote for May's Deal over EUref2 for the latter to be likely but we could face indefinite extension of Article 50
    That is my expectation. May is obviously not going to get legal changes to the WA so the chances of parliament passing it are minimal. So she will be forced to ask for an extension of A50, which the EU will grant for a long period, perhaps up to the end of 2020, or, as you suggest, without an end date at all. Of course if a deal can be agreed earlier then the UK can leave, but this parliament is very unlikely to be able to agree a deal acceptable to the EU, so the UK will perforce remain a member.
This discussion has been closed.