It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
There was nothing on the ballot paper about the Customs Union.
Plenty of things were said by a variety of inept clowns during the referendum campaign.
Only a credulous quarterwit would afford the outpourings of politicians any credence.
There was something on the manifesto about leaving the Customs Union.
Which failed to gain a majority in parliament. QED.
Actually it did. Tories gained a majority in Great Britain and the DUP with the same pledge gained a majority in Northern Ireland. Therefore a majority in Parliament. QED.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
Fascinating programme but my overwhelming impression is exactly the opposite of yours - How dumb are these people! (on all sides of the arguments).
They live by strict legalistic interpretations of rules with absolutely no initiative or foresight. When things go wrong the retreat into a bunker like mentality and are incapable of lateral thinking. And this is not limited at all to the EU and the leaders of the continental countries. The same applies to most of our politicians in Parliament as well - again on both sides of the argument.
Europe as a whole is very poorly served by its modern political classes.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
If they were bright then how did they miss all of these gigantic issues, I mean not only miss them but exacerbate them in a few cases. Honestly, I want to believe you but any political leader with an ounce of sense could have seen that inviting half of the Middle East to Europe was a poor idea and either should have told Germany to deal with the problem they created or had an actually "more EU" solution and forced Merkel to stand down. Instead they let Merkel do what she wanted and then tried to force the countries that wanted no part of her folly to deal with the consequences. If a debate leader in a sixth form politics class wasn't able to see that then they would get a fail.
They made mistakes, Max, and I would agree with those you point out above. But 'dunces'?
Those aren't small mistakes that I've pointed out though, and they are mistakes that Dave (and George) saw coming and kept us well out of.
But 'dunces'?
Yes, dimwitted, slow, whatever you want to call it. They are the mistakes of amateurs, I think the whole of PB had worked out the consequences of Merkel's idiot decision within about an hour, yet the EU sat there twiddling it's thumbs saying how nice Mrs Merkel was and how awful Eastern Europe and the UK were for not taking in these wonderful people.
Dan Mallory, author of the best-selling The Woman in the Window, has admitted to lying about having brain cancer. His admission comes after a New Yorker profile accused him of a history of lies about his personal life.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
It was accepted, but now it looks like it was impossible.
You want to test the idea to destruction, or would you prefer to do something sensible?
I fail to see any impossibility. It may be impossible to agree a deal with the EU and that's a shame if so but it's still possible to leave. You can't make our leaving contingent on the people we are leaving who don't want us to do so.
If the shoe was on the other foot ... if in 2014 Scotland voted by 52/48 Yes only for Cameron (who for some reason didn't resign despite the referendum result) to insist Scotland could only get a deal to leave if they agreed to implement English laws forever, or until England chose to let Scotland stop following English laws ... do you think Salmond would have decided that Scottish Independence was impossible after all?
May's said there will be not be a No Deal exit. Watchagonna do?
We may yet leave. It's not impossible, but it's looking that way (which is what I wrote.) You can't see it? 'None so blind', Philip.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
I think the Remainer types get that perfectly well. They just believe in different freedoms. But it's still the same word. "Four freedoms", you remember?
PB is illustrative of that. Neither PB Remainers nor PB Leavers are any less vehement in their beliefs. You can pretty much say whether any given poster is a Remainer or a Leaver, and there's not much movement any more. I don't see any difference in the willingness to go down fighting.
Which is going to be entertaining on 29th March, particularly if it's No Deal.
I say "entertaining" in the manner of a "ho ho ho jolly politics" observer. But you can conceive scenarios where a shortage of one particular drug (held up at customs, or some administrative confusion over certification, or whatever) could be construed as leading to the death of, say, an already seriously ill kid in Liverpool. The story gets into the Canary or Novara in some exaggerated, misunderstood form; the mainstream media pick it up; and from then we're not far off riots in the Remain-voting cities. Not far at all.
Yes, people may well be going down fighting in the next couple of months, but I wouldn't bet on them being Leavers.
(Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and re-watch GBH.)
My freedom believes in not being told what to do.
Or, if I must be, knowing clearly and exactly how I sack / vote out the person making the law that tells me what I can and can't do.
Everything else is bullshit.
Sure. My freedom involves different things (partly because when you live in rural England, you get used to the fact that your vote will never make any difference to anything). No-one has a monopoly on the word. I've long been pissed off with Richard "toenail-eating" Stallman and his attempts to colonise the word "Freedom", duly capitalised, for his own particular ideology in computer software.
But just because people have a different definition to you doesn't mean that they're any less likely to fight for it. You can try yelling "YOU'RE WRONG, THIS ISN'T REAL FREEDOM, YOU SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO DANIEL HANNAN" at them when they're rioting, but I doubt it'll do you much good.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
Fascinating programme but my overwhelming impression is exactly the opposite of yours - How dumb are these people! (on all sides of the arguments).
They live by strict legalistic interpretations of rules with absolutely no initiative or foresight. When things go wrong the retreat into a bunker like mentality and are incapable of lateral thinking. And this is not limited at all to the EU and the leaders of the continental countries. The same applies to most of our politicians in Parliament as well - again on both sides of the argument.
Europe as a whole is very poorly served by its modern political classes.
One person did show some lateral thinking to try and sort out the financial crisis - Varoufakis. It was the rest of them, the pan European establishment, that closed ranks, put their fingers in their ears and read from the prepared script.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
Fascinating programme but my overwhelming impression is exactly the opposite of yours - How dumb are these people! (on all sides of the arguments).
They live by strict legalistic interpretations of rules with absolutely no initiative or foresight. When things go wrong the retreat into a bunker like mentality and are incapable of lateral thinking. And this is not limited at all to the EU and the leaders of the continental countries. The same applies to most of our politicians in Parliament as well - again on both sides of the argument.
Europe as a whole is very poorly served by its modern political classes.
Well of course you do, Richard, because your outlook is so inimical to theirs! They must therefore be stupid, or ill-willed, if not both.
But just because people have a different definition to you doesn't mean that they're any less likely to fight for it. You can try yelling "YOU'RE WRONG, THIS ISN'T REAL FREEDOM, YOU SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO DANIEL HANNAN" at them when they're rioting, but I doubt it'll do you much good.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
Nice theory, belied completely by the xenophobic campaign. Leavers need to get a better mirror.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
Fascinating programme but my overwhelming impression is exactly the opposite of yours - How dumb are these people! (on all sides of the arguments).
They live by strict legalistic interpretations of rules with absolutely no initiative or foresight. When things go wrong the retreat into a bunker like mentality and are incapable of lateral thinking. And this is not limited at all to the EU and the leaders of the continental countries. The same applies to most of our politicians in Parliament as well - again on both sides of the argument.
Europe as a whole is very poorly served by its modern political classes.
One person did show some lateral thinking to try and sort out the financial crisis - Varoufakis. It was the rest of them, the pan European establishment, that closed ranks, put their fingers in their ears and read from the prepared script.
Yes, I remember watching an industry lecture with him from when he was Valve's in house economist. Without a doubt one of the smartest people in politics. It's a shame that it went down like you said, as always the political project trumps all in the EU, even the people.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
Oh come on Mr Meeks. A slight point against the possibly over-zealous tide. I'm sure your good nature will give me that.
It was accepted, but now it looks like it was impossible.
You want to test the idea to destruction, or would you prefer to do something sensible?
I fail to see any impossibility. It may be impossible to agree a deal with the EU and that's a shame if so but it's still possible to leave. You can't make our leaving contingent on the people we are leaving who don't want us to do so.
If the shoe was on the other foot ... if in 2014 Scotland voted by 52/48 Yes only for Cameron (who for some reason didn't resign despite the referendum result) to insist Scotland could only get a deal to leave if they agreed to implement English laws forever, or until England chose to let Scotland stop following English laws ... do you think Salmond would have decided that Scottish Independence was impossible after all?
May's said there will be not be a No Deal exit. Watchagonna do?
We may yet leave. It's not impossible, but it's looking that way (which is what I wrote.) You can't see it? 'None so blind', Philip.
When? I missed her saying that.
In Northern Island, today. Nobody remarked upon it much, probably because it's not the first time she's said it. Or possibly people are used to her saying one thing and then doing something else.
Dan Mallory, author of the best-selling The Woman in the Window, has admitted to lying about having brain cancer. His admission comes after a New Yorker profile accused him of a history of lies about his personal life.
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
I think the Remainer types get that perfectly well. They just believe in different freedoms. But it's still the same word. "Four freedoms", you remember?
PB is illustrative of that. Neither PB Remainers nor PB Leavers are any less vehement in their beliefs. You can pretty much say whether any given poster is a Remainer or a Leaver, and there's not much movement any more. I don't see any difference in the willingness to go down fighting.
Which is going to be entertaining on 29th March, particularly if it's No Deal.
I say "entertaining" in the manner of a "ho ho ho jolly politics" observer. But you can conceive scenarios where a shortage of one particular drug (held up at customs, or some administrative confusion over certification, or whatever) could be construed as leading to the death of, say, an already seriously ill kid in Liverpool. The story gets into the Canary or Novara in some exaggerated, misunderstood form; the mainstream media pick it up; and from then we're not far off riots in the Remain-voting cities. Not far at all.
Yes, people may well be going down fighting in the next couple of months, but I wouldn't bet on them being Leavers.
(Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and re-watch GBH.)
My freedom believes in not being told what to do.
Or, if I must be, knowing clearly and exactly how I sack / vote out the person making the law that tells me what I can and can't do.
Everything else is bullshit.
Sure. My freedom involves different things (partly because when you live in rural England, you get used to the fact that your vote will never make any difference to anything). No-one has a monopoly on the word. I've long been pissed off with Richard "toenail-eating" Stallman and his attempts to colonise the word "Freedom", duly capitalised, for his own particular ideology in computer software.
But just because people have a different definition to you doesn't mean that they're any less likely to fight for it. You can try yelling "YOU'RE WRONG, THIS ISN'T REAL FREEDOM, YOU SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO DANIEL HANNAN" at them when they're rioting, but I doubt it'll do you much good.
My freedom doesn't impinge on other people's. How about yours? How about the EU's?
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
Nice theory, belied completely by the xenophobic campaign. Leavers need to get a better mirror.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
That isnt what the polling shows. The peak for Leave was 1981, For Remain in the late eighties.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
Nice theory, belied completely by the xenophobic campaign. Leavers need to get a better mirror.
The desperation to avoid the clear responsibility that Leave advocates bear for campaigning with race-baiting is palpable. But forlorn. The country’s current ills stem substantially from that catastrophic malignity.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments hd destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened theirealism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Parliament may still vote for permanent Customs Union and Single Market elements though as it did by 318 to 310 to oppose No Deal, the question would then be if the executive accepts the legislature's decision
My freedom doesn't impinge on other people's. How about yours? How about the EU's?
You mean apart from my sudden lack of freedom to work in 27 European countries?
But this is kind of the point. You can shout all you like about how your freedom is the right one and how I. Just. Don't. Get. It. It's not going to convince me. I'm not any less likely to "go down fighting" just because you voted Leave and I voted Remain. The argument has gone beyond angels-on-a-pin dialectics about the exact meaning of "freedom".
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
That isnt what the polling shows. The peak for Leave was 1981, For Remain in the late eighties.
And few people cared very much about the EU until forced to take an interest in it when Cameron called the referendum. That is perhaps the greatest of the many tragedies that the referendum unleashed. An issue that was not very important to most people has been elevated into something that is dividing families, generations, and the nations of the UK. And all because of the indolence and arrogance of one man.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
That isnt what the polling shows. The peak for Leave was 1981, For Remain in the late eighties.
Self-confident leadership, like pushing for the completion of the single market, obviously goes down well with the public. With our great traditions, it should be the UK taking the lead on the creation of the EU army.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
The Conservatives are the European party. It's the ERG who'll be out on their ear.
With 70% of the Conservative's voters and 80% of their workers.
On reflection, I've concluded that Tusk's comments will be helpful in the long run.
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
Theresa May has been trying that for two and a half years and it doesn't work because the narrative doesn't reflect the truth.
When exactly did she try that? From what I can see, she's been treating the EU with far more respect than they've shown her.
All her speeches on Brexit come from the perspective of thinking that British people universally weren't comfortable in the EU and didn't really like it.
Now that you've said that, I can sort of see what you mean, but in general Theresa May has not been great at shaping public opinion, so it's little surprise that it hasn't worked. Anyway, no-one listens to politician's speeches.
Maybe she needed to do what Tusk has done today, and just blast them a few times on Twitter.
Older people are much more pro EU than those in the UK. Macron has much more support from older people than Le Pen and her anti EU message made her toxic to many voters .
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
The referendum was won because an intransigent EU forcing us into ever closer union and diminishing national sovereignty year by year by stealth
Funny, the posters I saw all concerned the untrue threat that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain.
Remain lost the referendum many years before June 2016. The resentment towards the EU and it’s disregard for national sovereignty has been brewing since 1975
Nice theory, belied completely by the xenophobic campaign. Leavers need to get a better mirror.
The desperation to avoid the clear responsibility that Leave advocates bear for campaigning with race-baiting is palpable. But forlorn. The country’s current ills stem substantially from that catastrophic malignity.
Tony Blair lying about the amount of immigration from Eastern Europe and then allowing the floodgates to open hardly did much for social cohesion and put massive strain on the NHS and our infrastructure. And then calling anyone who what’s concerned about this racist , so immigration couldn’t be addressed or discussed . Politicians ignored the genuine concerns of people and shut down any debate , is it any wonder people who voted leave did so because the politicians ignored them and were not listening . Many did vote because of being ignored over immigration concerns , but also many voted because they saw our sovereignty being taken away from us by an undemocratic EU bureaucracy. The British have never been endeared to the concept of the EU and we have always been reluctant members , which is why leaving is the best thing, we want to trade, we want to be good neighbours, but we don’t want to be dictated to by a commission we cannot boot out if we do t agree with them . We want a much looser arrangement than the current position
On reflection, I've concluded that Tusk's comments will be helpful in the long run.
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
Theresa May has been trying that for two and a half years and it doesn't work because the narrative doesn't reflect the truth.
When exactly did she try that? From what I can see, she's been treating the EU with far more respect than they've shown her.
All her speeches on Brexit come from the perspective of thinking that British people universally weren't comfortable in the EU and didn't really like it.
Now that you've said that, I can sort of see what you mean, but in general Theresa May has not been great at shaping public opinion, so it's little surprise that it hasn't worked. Anyway, no-one listens to politician's speeches.
Maybe she needed to do what Tusk has done today, and just blast them a few times on Twitter.
Her heart wouldn't be in it. It's only immigrants that really get her going.
Wow, that's a weird graph! I don't get why support for the EU (or EEC as is was then) went down to 30% not long after the first referendum? Or how it got to 60% in the early 90s when it was the height of the tabloids printing anti-Europe stories?
I assume it went down around 2015 when the migrant crisis (with the massive increase in the Mediterranean crossings) became big news. If only the second referendum was in 2014!
I see we are rehashing the same old same old arguments....I have personally spent the day weighing up best biscuit, its a really toughie.
Jaffa cakes.
Its a cake...and any suggestion it isn't will have Mcvities lawyers on the blower.
It's in the biscuits aisle, next to the other biscuits.
Well that's what the VAT man said, and Mcvities lawyers spanked their arse in court.
It self identifies as a biscuit.
LOL...I didn't know it isn't just UK, apparently in Ireland they have a "moisture" test for biscuit vs cake and Jaffa Cakes have sufficiently high moisture content to be classified as a cake...you learn something new every day.
I see we are rehashing the same old same old arguments....I have personally spent the day weighing up best biscuit, its a really toughie.
Jaffa cakes.
Its a cake...and any suggestion it isn't will have Mcvities lawyers on the blower.
It's in the biscuits aisle, next to the other biscuits.
Well that's what the VAT man said, and Mcvities lawyers spanked their arse in court.
It self identifies as a biscuit.
LOL...I didn't know it isn't just UK, apparently in Ireland they have a "moisture" test for biscuit vs cake and Jaffa Cakes have sufficiently high moisture content to be classified as a cake...you learn something new every day.
Biscuits go soft when they go stale while cakes go hard.
The new interface is completely effing up the quote function, it still has the character limit but you can't edit the previous quotes to delete them, not a great start.
The new interface is completely effing up the quote function, it still has the character limit but you can't edit the previous quotes to delete them, not a great start.
The comments are very large and the names very small.
Wow, that's a weird graph! I don't get why support for the EU (or EEC as is was then) went down to 30% not long after the first referendum? Or how it got to 60% in the early 90s when it was the height of the tabloids printing anti-Europe stories?
I assume it went down around 2015 when the migrant crisis (with the massive increase in the Mediterranean crossings) became big news. If only the second referendum was in 2014!
Yes, Euroscepticism rises in times when the economy is in the doldrums, drops when the economy improves. Other events affect it, but to a lesser extent.
The new interface is completely effing up the quote function, it still has the character limit but you can't edit the previous quotes to delete them, not a great start.
The comments are very large and the names very small.
The new interface is completely effing up the quote function, it still has the character limit but you can't edit the previous quotes to delete them, not a great start.
The comments are very large and the names very small.
The new interface is completely effing up the quote function, it still has the character limit but you can't edit the previous quotes to delete them, not a great start.
Every word I type is a unique and exquisitely crafted piece of pure insight, it is good people will not be able to delete them.
I see we are rehashing the same old same old arguments....I have personally spent the day weighing up best biscuit, its a really toughie.
Jaffa cakes.
Its a cake...and any suggestion it isn't will have Mcvities lawyers on the blower.
It's in the biscuits aisle, next to the other biscuits.
So are tunnock's tea cakes, and despite the base those aren't biscuits either.
What about a wagon wheel?
Confused about their identity.
Personally if it is not viable to be dunked in tea I don't think it qualifies as a biscuit. And I am very generous in determining what can and cannot be dunked, so it's a wide range, but wagon wheels and jaffa cakes miss out there.
Oh FFS, I know delaying is her only move, but will minister just goddamn quit or ultras vote out her government already, it is getting incredibly reckless as well as pathetic and stupid to keep pushing the date like this.
I see we are rehashing the same old same old arguments....I have personally spent the day weighing up best biscuit, its a really toughie.
Jaffa cakes.
Its a cake...and any suggestion it isn't will have Mcvities lawyers on the blower.
It's in the biscuits aisle, next to the other biscuits.
So are tunnock's tea cakes, and despite the base those aren't biscuits either.
What about a wagon wheel?
Confused about their identity.
Personally if it is not viable to be dunked in tea I don't think it qualifies as a biscuit. And I am very generous in determining what can and cannot be dunked, so it's a wide range, but wagon wheels and jaffa cakes miss out there.
I see we are rehashing the same old same old arguments....I have personally spent the day weighing up best biscuit, its a really toughie.
Jaffa cakes.
Its a cake...and any suggestion it isn't will have Mcvities lawyers on the blower.
It's in the biscuits aisle, next to the other biscuits.
So are tunnock's tea cakes, and despite the base those aren't biscuits either.
What about a wagon wheel?
Confused about their identity.
Personally if it is not viable to be dunked in tea I don't think it qualifies as a biscuit. And I am very generous in determining what can and cannot be dunked, so it's a wide range, but wagon wheels and jaffa cakes miss out there.
What about a fig roll?
I don't care if they are a biscuit or a cake, but they are the choice of snack for boxed wine drinkers...
I see we are rehashing the same old same old arguments....I have personally spent the day weighing up best biscuit, its a really toughie.
Jaffa cakes.
Its a cake...and any suggestion it isn't will have Mcvities lawyers on the blower.
It's in the biscuits aisle, next to the other biscuits.
So are tunnock's tea cakes, and despite the base those aren't biscuits either.
What about a wagon wheel?
Confused about their identity.
Personally if it is not viable to be dunked in tea I don't think it qualifies as a biscuit. And I am very generous in determining what can and cannot be dunked, so it's a wide range, but wagon wheels and jaffa cakes miss out there.
What about a fig roll?
Without personal empirical data I would be hesitant to weigh in definitively on such an important topic, but from general observation they would appear to be cakes.
Either it starts off soft and Norway-ish, and then hardens due to a mysterious internal chemical reaction, or it starts off hard and then softens when exposed to oxygen.
Either it starts off soft and Norway-ish, and then hardens due to a mysterious internal chemical reaction, or it starts off hard and then softens when exposed to oxygen.
Isn't it a doughnut? It goes round in circles with a hole in the middle.
Comments
They live by strict legalistic interpretations of rules with absolutely no initiative or foresight. When things go wrong the retreat into a bunker like mentality and are incapable of lateral thinking. And this is not limited at all to the EU and the leaders of the continental countries. The same applies to most of our politicians in Parliament as well - again on both sides of the argument.
Europe as a whole is very poorly served by its modern political classes.
But just because people have a different definition to you doesn't mean that they're any less likely to fight for it. You can try yelling "YOU'RE WRONG, THIS ISN'T REAL FREEDOM, YOU SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO DANIEL HANNAN" at them when they're rioting, but I doubt it'll do you much good.
https://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250
But this is kind of the point. You can shout all you like about how your freedom is the right one and how I. Just. Don't. Get. It. It's not going to convince me. I'm not any less likely to "go down fighting" just because you voted Leave and I voted Remain. The argument has gone beyond angels-on-a-pin dialectics about the exact meaning of "freedom".
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2193356#Comment_2193356I'm pretty certain that I would still be able to get a job in any of the 27 EU countries before or after leaving.
What’s happened to Vanilla on mobile!? I like it.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1093238514328711169
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1093232430503333889
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2193361#Comment_2193361Well yes, but immigration has always had a skill element, removing that has distorted the market for 15 years. I think if the EU 27 want to reintroduce that skill element for UK immigration it's definitely fair.
How long before all this ends up in various courts
Maybe she needed to do what Tusk has done today, and just blast them a few times on Twitter.
Older people are much more pro EU than those in the UK. Macron has much more support from older people than Le Pen and her anti EU message made her toxic to many voters .
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2193366#Comment_2193366Oh my, not sure I like this.
Only the second one works.
Number of people from the UK who moved to Poland during that time - approx 40,000
I assume it went down around 2015 when the migrant crisis (with the massive increase in the Mediterranean crossings) became big news. If only the second referendum was in 2014!
What a ludicrous exercise in sophistry.
By the way, nice new phone interface for Vanilla Forums.
Much better than the old one.
https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1093258156342501376?s=21
The new interface is completely effing up the quote function, it still has the character limit but you can't edit the previous quotes to delete them, not a great start.
Is this the same for you too?
A new emoji being rolled out this year will depict a hand doing a pinching motion to depict a 'small penis' and mock modestly endowed gentlemen.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6674197/Small-penis-emoji-rolled-phones-year.html
Actually I take it back.
I can’t seem to quote other people at all!
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2193396#Comment_2193396Yes, it's not great. Another web 4.0 (or are we up to 5.0?) innovation we could have done without.
Logging off. Hopefully it'll be fixed by morning.
Personally if it is not viable to be dunked in tea I don't think it qualifies as a biscuit. And I am very generous in determining what can and cannot be dunked, so it's a wide range, but wagon wheels and jaffa cakes miss out there.
Either it starts off soft and Norway-ish, and then hardens due to a mysterious internal chemical reaction, or it starts off hard and then softens when exposed to oxygen.
When Northern strike my Transpennine Express trains become rammed with rowdy peasants.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/06/northern-rail-industrial-action-called-off-after-conductor-guarantee
https://twitter.com/thehistoryguy/status/1093265349208887296
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sKtBkVrqYYk