Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
Brexit has done weird things . For those of us who remember the troubles we were led to believe Sinn Fein were evil and as as someone who strongly believed in the Union , the thought of Scotland dissolving that was horrifying .
Now Sinn Fein look forward thinking and liberal and I’d welcome Scotland becoming independent . The UK is not what I thought it was and Brexit has taken the veneer off , Scotland needs to escape the horrible rancid xenophobia south of the border .
It’s over for the UK , reputation in tatters and divisions that will take a very long time to heal .
Since about 2010 it's been obvious that Sinn Fein are far more clueful than the other NI parties. Even more so since the old guard quietly retired...
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
Before I (finally) go, there's an interesting blog in the Spectator on GateOfTusks. It says his remarks were probably meant to annoy - Tusk was letting off steam. But more importantly, it shows that the EU has finally, and despairingly, realised that Britain really is leaving, there won't be a 2nd vote and Remain, so the Barnier-Tusk plan to punish into staying has failed.
The Speccie speculates that this is a positive outcome, as it means the EU might now seriously engage on the backstop, as the only alternative is No Deal (and they truly don't want that)
I'd link but I can't find it. No idea if the Spec is right. But at least it is an upbeat angle on what could be seen as a depressing political day.
Later.
I could have told them that two years ago.
But, as a Brexiteer, they would have ignored me whilst welcoming the likes of A C Grayling with open arms.
I mean, they actually believed him.
But there will not be No Deal. TM has said so. She said it again today, in Ireland.
You do believe her, don't you?
I think May has ruled out every possible option. Which particular axiom she will break is anyone's guess. I mean we could leave without a deal and then state the day after Brexit that we won't construct any sort of border in Ireland
Let me rephrase that. She made so many contradictory statements that whatever she finishes up doing, she will have told some very significant lies in very meaningful contexts.
Let's be fair though, Tusk's comments about the remain side in Britain were far more damning. "Special place in hell" indicates a huge level of annoyance but the impotence with which he described the remainers in parliament in particular, writing off the SNP, Lib Dems and so forth was interesting and telling.
The relevant section of Tusk's remarks bears repetition, overlooked as it has been because of the caterwauling over his slapdown of the Brexiteers:
"I know that still a very great number of people in the UK, and on the continent, as well as in Ireland, wish for a reversal of this decision. I have always been with you, with all my heart.
"But the facts are unmistakable. At the moment, the pro-Brexit stance of the UK Prime Minister, and the Leader of the Opposition, rules out this question.
"Today, there is no political force and no effective leadership for Remain. I say this without satisfaction, but you can’t argue with the facts."
'No effective leadership.' Cable, Blackford, Cooper, Grieve and all the rest of them - written off, collectively, as a useless rabble. They can make a lot of noise and do their level best to discomfit May and Corbyn in Parliament, but ultimately they're almost out of time yet no closer to achieving their goal.
Let's be fair though, Tusk's comments about the remain side in Britain were far more damning. "Special place in hell" indicates a huge level of annoyance but the impotence with which he described the remainers in parliament in particular, writing off the SNP, Lib Dems and so forth was interesting and telling.
He expected them to do the EU's bidding.
He's angry that they've failed.
He's astonished that nobody has carried forward the Remain cause.
When the Show Trials begin, Corbyn will be one of the first up.
Cameron carried forward the Remain cause. He lost. They haven't accepted that but by and large as a nation we have, that's the problem.
A cause doesn't die because of a set-back, even one as severe as a referendum vote. It was close, and the majority arose from a varied and largely incoherent coalition, as evidenced by subsequent events. There was good reason for Remainers to continue arguing their case, but like the Leave side, it didn't find a plausible and coherent leader, or a plan.
Yes and no.
The overwhelming majority of this nation - remainers and leavers alike - accepted that the UK was leaving the EU after the vote. Even when David Dimbleby was announcing the result he was quite definitive.
“At 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the common market has been reversed by this referendum, to leave the EU. We are absolutely clear now that there is no way that the Remain side can win. It looks as though the gap is going to be something like 52 to 48...
"The British people have spoken, and the answer is we're out."
All but 7 headbangers on the Tory benches have accepted we're out even though many (most?) of them voted to remain. We've accepted as a nation the decision.
Tusk, Barnier et al haven't. This is why we're approaching things from different angles. This wasn't a setback, it was a decision made.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No time for high horses. He's right. 100% right. Nothing wrong with telling it like it is. Listen to the excellent Sinn Fein lady on Channel 4. She makes our Tory government spokespeople sound like donkeys.*
(*What a pleasant change from Adams and Co)
You know, I sometimes get the feeling that if a eurocrat like Tusk got up and said "Britain is a stupid outside toilet of a country and all the women look like dancing camels covered in pigeon dung" then Remainers like you and foxy and TSE and gypsum and the rest would all eagerly applaud his honesty and integrity, and say Finally he's telling Brexiteers the truth, etc etc
I don't think there is any insult the EU could hurl at Britain which you would decry, there is no line they could cross, there is nothing you could ever find objectionable, just so long as it came from Brussels, and was aimed at us.
It's a strange pathology. Carries strong reminders of Orwell's description of the English Left in the 1930s.
It is perfectly possible to despise and abuse our government and politicians without despising the nation and people.
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
So Starfleet comes along and says, nope, the land you put your heart and soul into belongs to someone else now.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
'No effective leadership.' Cable, Blackford, Cooper, Grieve and all the rest of them - written off, collectively, as a useless rabble. They can make a lot of noise and do their level best to discomfit May and Corbyn in Parliament, but ultimately they're almost out of time yet no closer to achieving their goal.
Well, they are. They are in fact by failing to unite around a meaningful alternative helping to bring about the very situation they say they are trying to prevent.
That is why his remarks are so damaging. If they weren't true, they'd just be laughed at. They reason they are hitting nerves is because they are not only offensively expressed but entirely accurate (just as my hits at Gove's education policy rile his supporters so much because they have no answers).
But - and a big but - if he wants to change this, he's just made it all but impossible to do so. That's why diplomats learn to STFU especially when they are right.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
Before I (finally) go, there's an interesting blog in the Spectator on GateOfTusks. It says his remarks were probably meant to annoy - Tusk was letting off steam. But more importantly, it shows that the EU has finally, and despairingly, realised that Britain really is leaving, there won't be a 2nd vote and Remain, so the Barnier-Tusk plan to punish into staying has failed.
The Speccie speculates that this is a positive outcome, as it means the EU might now seriously engage on the backstop, as the only alternative is No Deal (and they truly don't want that)
I'd link but I can't find it. No idea if the Spec is right. But at least it is an upbeat angle on what could be seen as a depressing political day.
Later.
I could have told them that two years ago.
But, as a Brexiteer, they would have ignored me whilst welcoming the likes of A C Grayling with open arms.
I mean, they actually believed him.
But there will not be No Deal. TM has said so. She said it again today, in Ireland.
You do believe her, don't you?
I think May has ruled out every possible option. Which particular axiom she will break is anyone's guess. I mean we could leave without a deal and then state the day after Brexit that we won't construct any sort of border in Ireland
Let me rephrase that. She made so many contradictory statements that whatever she finishes up doing, she will have told some very significant lies in very meaningful contexts.
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
So Starfleet comes along and says, nope, the land you put your heart and soul into belongs to someone else now.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
So Starfleet comes along and says, nope, the land you put your heart and soul into belongs to someone else now.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
Nonsense.
Sisko was literally a God.
Mr Eagles, as a good Muslim I assumed you would know the difference between a god, a prophet and an emissary.
The relevant section of Tusk's remarks bears repetition, overlooked as it has been because of the caterwauling over his slapdown of the Brexiteers:
"I know that still a very great number of people in the UK, and on the continent, as well as in Ireland, wish for a reversal of this decision. I have always been with you, with all my heart.
"But the facts are unmistakable. At the moment, the pro-Brexit stance of the UK Prime Minister, and the Leader of the Opposition, rules out this question.
"Today, there is no political force and no effective leadership for Remain. I say this without satisfaction, but you can’t argue with the facts."
'No effective leadership.' Cable, Blackford, Cooper, Grieve and all the rest of them - written off, collectively, as a useless rabble. They can make a lot of noise and do their level best to discomfit May and Corbyn in Parliament, but ultimately they're almost out of time yet no closer to achieving their goal.
Without wishing to state the obvious, of the 650 MPs, 583 were elected on manifestos aimed at implementing Brexit. The remaining SNP, LD and others have no power or as much power as the Conservative opposition under William Hague from 1997-2001.
There may be Conservative and Labour MPs who privately would support remaining in the EU but for whatever reason cannot break the binds of Party loyalty.
The other problem for Tusk is this democracy business - there's a strong sense that irrespective of whether the decision to vote LEAVE on 23/6/16 was or will prove to be the right one, that decision has to be respected and that means we have to leave the EU either on 29/3/19 or following some form of transition.
As to whether a Party or group committed to seeking to rejoin the EU gains any traction in the next five years, that remains to be seen. One thing they will need to be clear on is or are the terms under which we would rejoin.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
This is why the Tuskery was so stupid. I cannot understand why Varadkar found it funny, unless he is genuinely relaxed about No Deal. If he is, he is a fucking retard. Ireland will probably hurt more than Britain.
Goodness me. I might have guessed of all the triggered Brexity snowflakes I've encountered today, you'd be the one clutching your pearls in shock tightest.
Brexit has done weird things . For those of us who remember the troubles we were led to believe Sinn Fein were evil and as as someone who strongly believed in the Union , the thought of Scotland dissolving that was horrifying .
Now Sinn Fein look forward thinking and liberal and I’d welcome Scotland becoming independent . The UK is not what I thought it was and Brexit has taken the veneer off , Scotland needs to escape the horrible rancid xenophobia south of the border .
It’s over for the UK , reputation in tatters and divisions that will take a very long time to heal .
What did you think the UK was?
Assuming you're a UK citizen then the UK is you, and me, and others too. That's it. We decide.
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
So Starfleet comes along and says, nope, the land you put your heart and soul into belongs to someone else now.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
Nonsense.
Sisko was literally a God.
Mr Eagles, as a good Muslim I assumed you would know the difference between a god, a prophet and an emissary.
He was an emissary then at the end of the series he ascended to Godhood.
Since the wormhole aliens exist outside of linear time he was always a god.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
Before I (finally) go, there's an interesting blog in the Spectator on GateOfTusks. It says his remarks were probably meant to annoy - Tusk was letting off steam. But more importantly, it shows that the EU has finally, and despairingly, realised that Britain really is leaving, there won't be a 2nd vote and Remain, so the Barnier-Tusk plan to punish into staying has failed.
The Speccie speculates that this is a positive outcome, as it means the EU might now seriously engage on the backstop, as the only alternative is No Deal (and they truly don't want that)
I'd link but I can't find it. No idea if the Spec is right. But at least it is an upbeat angle on what could be seen as a depressing political day.
Later.
I could have told them that two years ago.
But, as a Brexiteer, they would have ignored me whilst welcoming the likes of A C Grayling with open arms.
I mean, they actually believed him.
But there will not be No Deal. TM has said so. She said it again today, in Ireland.
You do believe her, don't you?
I think May has ruled out every possible option. Which particular axiom she will break is anyone's guess. I mean we could leave without a deal and then state the day after Brexit that we won't construct any sort of border in Ireland
Let me rephrase that. She made so many contradictory statements that whatever she finishes up doing, she will have told some very significant lies in very meaningful contexts.
That's ok then?
It's what is going to happen...
Well then let's all remember that when the next GE is on and accusations of mendacity are being made about supporters of Parties other than May's.
This is why the Tuskery was so stupid. I cannot understand why Varadkar found it funny, unless he is genuinely relaxed about No Deal. If he is, he is a fucking retard. Ireland will probably hurt more than Britain.
Goodness me. I might have guessed of all the triggered Brexity snowflakes I've encountered today, you'd be the one clutching your pearls in shock tightest.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The language got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
You just do not get it. You almost seem to want a no deal exit
I most certainly do not and I want TM deal signed. Tusk made that much harder today
And I am consistent with my condemnation of ERG though wanting anyone in hell is not in my mindset
This is why the Tuskery was so stupid. I cannot understand why Varadkar found it funny, unless he is genuinely relaxed about No Deal. If he is, he is a fucking retard. Ireland will probably hurt more than Britain.
Goodness me. I might have guessed of all the triggered Brexity snowflakes I've encountered today, you'd be the one clutching your pearls in shock tightest.
Let's be fair though, Tusk's comments about the remain side in Britain were far more damning. "Special place in hell" indicates a huge level of annoyance but the impotence with which he described the remainers in parliament in particular, writing off the SNP, Lib Dems and so forth was interesting and telling.
He expected them to do the EU's bidding.
He's angry that they've failed.
He's astonished that nobody has carried forward the Remain cause.
When the Show Trials begin, Corbyn will be one of the first up.
Cameron carried forward the Remain cause. He lost. They haven't accepted that but by and large as a nation we have, that's the problem.
A cause doesn't die because of a set-back, even one as severe as a referendum vote. It was close, and the majority arose from a varied and largely incoherent coalition, as evidenced by subsequent events. There was good reason for Remainers to continue arguing their case, but like the Leave side, it didn't find a plausible and coherent leader, or a plan.
Yes and no.
The overwhelming majority of this nation - remainers and leavers alike - accepted that the UK was leaving the EU after the vote. Even when David Dimbleby was announcing the result he was quite definitive.
“At 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the common market has been reversed by this referendum, to leave the EU. We are absolutely clear now that there is no way that the Remain side can win. It looks as though the gap is going to be something like 52 to 48...
"The British people have spoken, and the answer is we're out."
All but 7 headbangers on the Tory benches have accepted we're out even though many (most?) of them voted to remain. We've accepted as a nation the decision.
Tusk, Barnier et al haven't. This is why we're approaching things from different angles. This wasn't a setback, it was a decision made.
It was accepted, but now it looks like it was impossible.
You want to test the idea to destruction, or would you prefer to do something sensible?
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
Whether deliberately or not, he is sabotaging the chances of the deal being accepted as a compromise.
He may think revoke is the alternative. But it isn't. Crashout is the alternative.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
So Starfleet comes along and says, nope, the land you put your heart and soul into belongs to someone else now.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
Nonsense.
Sisko was literally a God.
Mr Eagles, as a good Muslim I assumed you would know the difference between a god, a prophet and an emissary.
He was an emissary then at the end of the series he ascended to Godhood.
Since the wormhole aliens exist outside of linear time he was always a god.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The language got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
You just do not get it. You almost seem to want a no deal exit
I most certainly do not and I want TM deal signed. Tusk made that much harder today
And I am consistent with my condemnation of ERG though eanting anyone in hell is not in my mindset
I am not bothered by a No Deal Brexit, while obviously stupid and damaging, it does at least give the country the reality check it needs.
How is it useful for a person who engages in high stakes diplomacy to engage in behaviour seemingly designed to aid a position he and his organisation are officially not in favour of?
I'm reasonably certain this is a calculated act of ridicule towards Brexiteers, not some off-the-cuff remark from a man with no internal censor. Varadkar seems in on it.
This was a remark laser-guided to let the UK know how seriously the EU is taking May's latest doomed displacement activity.
The clitoris has 8,000 nerve endings yet isn't as sensitive as a Brexiteer.
Hilarious stuff today from the Tuskmeister. You have lol. Hell: It ain’t half hot mum!
I'll remind you of this post when we No Deal Brexit.
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'. I don't think it's stretching things too far to suggest that in doing so he was implying DC was a stupid politician. He probably thinks much the same of the other UK politicians who have traipsed over to Brussels in the name of Brexit.
You can sense the exasperation. How could any responsible politican engage in such a venture without the semblance of a plan? You can argue with the manner and timing of his remarks, but it's a fair question, and for all the outrage expressed in response it's one to which no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
So Starfleet comes along and says, nope, the land you put your heart and soul into belongs to someone else now.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
Nonsense.
Sisko was literally a God.
Mr Eagles, as a good Muslim I assumed you would know the difference between a god, a prophet and an emissary.
He was an emissary then at the end of the series he ascended to Godhood.
Since the wormhole aliens exist outside of linear time he was always a god.
His momma was a wormhole alien.
Positively Freudian.
The alternative explanation is that Sisko was a mental patient with a god complex, indeed, this ending was actually discussed by the show runners.
Would have made a pretty crap ending... Sisko ascending to godhood wasn't great, having him bring the wormhole aliens into the federation would have been better.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
Eddington ended up in prison and turns out his major attack was just a ruse which saw him shot dead.
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
So Starfleet comes along and says, nope, the land you put your heart and soul into belongs to someone else now.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
Indeed, in the final Maquis episode Sisko openly admits they got it wrong about them.
I think the EU are more like the Borg, if we're going for Star Trek races. Maybe a mix of the Borg and Federation.
I think Leave is definitely the Maquis, which is why they hate us so much, they can't understand why anyone would want to leave their paradise, and if we show that it's not so bad on the outside then others on the inside might get ideas.
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'. I don't think it's stretching things too far to suggest that in doing so he was implying DC was a stupid politician. He probably thinks much the same of the other UK politicians who have traipsed over to Brussels in the name of Brexit.
You can sense the exasperation. How could any responsible politican engage in such a venture without the semblance of a plan? You can argue with the manner and timing of his remarks, but it's a fair question, and for all the outrage expressed in response it's one to which no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
It certainly is true that the best Deal that we could get in respect of the EU, is the one that we have now.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Good. We chose to leave the customs union. Why should she split the party and betray her own manifesto?
Obviously all this time travelling has resulted in him becoming disorientated. We had the peoples' vote more than 2 years ago.
Starfleet never did understand the Maquis.
The Maquis were pretty much wiped out, they should have never seceded from the rebellion.
A lesson for Brexiteers?
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
"London is now the free capital of a free country. We hail the people of the UK in their hour of triumph. All nations who value the human spirit will recognise it as a significant milestone in man's quest for liberty."
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Good. We chose to leave the customs union. Why should she split the party and betray her own manifesto?
Yes, she certainly values her party over her country.
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'. I don't think it's stretching things too far to suggest that in doing so he was implying DC was a stupid politician. He probably thinks much the same of the other UK politicians who have traipsed over to Brussels in the name of Brexit.
You can sense the exasperation. How could any responsible politican engage in such a venture without the semblance of a plan? You can argue with the manner and timing of his remarks, but it's a fair question, and for all the outrage expressed in response it's one to which no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
Nobody is jealous of Cameron. For obvious reasons.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
However, she decides, she is looking at a pretty awful political legacy. The Tories have not Governed the UK well since about 2015. It is only fear of the Corbyn devil, that keeps them in the game at present.
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'. I don't think it's stretching things too far to suggest that in doing so he was implying DC was a stupid politician. He probably thinks much the same of the other UK politicians who have traipsed over to Brussels in the name of Brexit.
You can sense the exasperation. How could any responsible politican engage in such a venture without the semblance of a plan? You can argue with the manner and timing of his remarks, but it's a fair question, and for all the outrage expressed in response it's one to which no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
It's a view, Max. Another is that Brexit is to him as Iraq is to Blair.
Let's be fair though, Tusk's comments about the remain side in Britain were far more damning. "Special place in hell" indicates a huge level of annoyance but the impotence with which he described the remainers in parliament in particular, writing off the SNP, Lib Dems and so forth was interesting and telling.
He expected them to do the EU's bidding.
He's angry that they've failed.
He's astonished that nobody has carried forward the Remain cause.
When the Show Trials begin, Corbyn will be one of the first up.
Cameron carried forward the Remain cause. He lost. They haven't accepted that but by and large as a nation we have, that's the problem.
A cause doesn't die because of a set-back, even one as severe as a referendum vote. It was close, and the majority arose from a varied and largely incoherent coalition, as evidenced by subsequent events. There was good reason for Remainers to continue arguing their case, but like the Leave side, it didn't find a plausible and coherent leader, or a plan.
Yes and no.
The overwhelming majority of this nation - remainers and leavers alike - accepted that the UK was leaving the EU after the vote. Even when David Dimbleby was announcing the result he was quite definitive.
“At 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the common market has been reversed by this referendum, to leave the EU. We are absolutely clear now that there is no way that the Remain side can win. It looks as though the gap is going to be something like 52 to 48...
"The British people have spoken, and the answer is we're out."
All but 7 headbangers on the Tory benches have accepted we're out even though many (most?) of them voted to remain. We've accepted as a nation the decision.
Tusk, Barnier et al haven't. This is why we're approaching things from different angles. This wasn't a setback, it was a decision made.
It was accepted, but now it looks like it was impossible.
You want to test the idea to destruction, or would you prefer to do something sensible?
This is Brexit. Nobody is doing anything sensible.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Good. We chose to leave the customs union. Why should she split the party and betray her own manifesto?
Yes, she certainly values her party over her country.
Her party represents the country. That is why she is Prime Minister and not Corbyn because the people elected her manifesto of leaving the CU over any and all other alternatives.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
The Conservatives are the European party. It's the ERG who'll be out on their ear.
On reflection, I've concluded that Tusk's comments will be helpful in the long run.
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'. I don't think it's stretching things too far to suggest that in doing so he was implying DC was a stupid politician. He probably thinks much the same of the other UK politicians who have traipsed over to Brussels in the name of Brexit.
You can sense the exasperation. How could any responsible politican engage in such a venture without the semblance of a plan? You can argue with the manner and timing of his remarks, but it's a fair question, and for all the outrage expressed in response it's one to which no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
It's a view, Max. Another is that Brexit is to him as Iraq is to Blair.
I don't think Cameron will ever achieve the level of opprobrium Blair did over Iraq. For one thing, he did the honourable and only sensible thing by resigning. But also, while he proved to be wrong in his calculations there is no reason to think he was guilty of more than that. Even though, ironically, it seems Iraq was one of the rare times Blair told what he believed to be the truth the fact that he was wrong on top of his long track record of dishonesty (politely called 'spin') means everyone now assumes he deliberately lied to take us to war so he could swan round the world as a big player. Karma's a bitch - if you are.
Indeed, while Blair remains hated on both sides Cameron has quickly faded away, a la Major. I think in the end he will not be hated. That's not to say he will be considered a great Prime Minister. But then, nor will Blair.
On reflection, I've concluded that Tusk's comments will be helpful in the long run.
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
Theresa May has been trying that for two and a half years and it doesn't work because the narrative doesn't reflect the truth.
One of the genuine problems with the UK is the insistence on getting pissed every bloody day. Many middle-class people are effectively high-functioning alcoholics, and sometimes not that high-functioning.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
It's a view, Max. Another is that Brexit is to him as Iraq is to Blair.
+1 Cameron went from being a good PM to a terrible one by making that EU referendum pledge and all that has stemmed from it. I would put Cameron/ May/ Brown all at the very bottom of PM rankings in that they have inherited a situation and made it worse, often for purely partisan purposes. We have had a succession of dreadful PM's!
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'. I don't think it's stretching things too far to suggest that in doing so he was implying DC was a stupid politician. He probably thinks much the same of the other UK politicians who have traipsed over to Brussels in the name of Brexit.
You can sense the exasperation. How could any responsible politican engage in such a venture without the semblance of a plan? You can argue with the manner and timing of his remarks, but it's a fair question, and for all the outrage expressed in response it's one to which no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
It's a view, Max. Another is that Brexit is to him as Iraq is to Blair.
I think on a career level you're correct, his political legacy will be defined by Brexit and even if it turns out to be a great success, he will be judged badly for holding the referendum.
I'm talking about on a personal level, it's really quite obvious that in terms of politics Tusk and Juncker are both dunces. Look at what they have wrought across Europe, one member is leaving, the good times are already over, half of eastern Europe has lurched to the hard right, Italy has a government openly calling for radical anti-EU policies and are spoiling for a fight, the problems with the euro remain unsolved after 10 years. The list goes on. Not only have the two chumps at the top not done anything about these, they are responsible for causing a lot of the discontent in Europe. Their go to solution of "more EU" has failed and will continue to fail.
That Dave saw these flaws and probably pointed it out to them on a number of occasions prior to the brexit negotiation and during them probably made them very bitter.
One of the genuine problems with the UK is the insistence on getting pissed every bloody day. Many middle-class people are effectively high-functioning alcoholics, and sometimes not that high-functioning.
Not just the UK either *looks innocently at footage of M. Juncker*.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
The Conservatives are the European party. It's the ERG who'll be out on their ear.
Don't be ridiculous. The europhiliac tendency has always been a small and elite group, and now they're no longer a source of patronage, there's no reason for them at all. They're also as utterly witless and embarrassing as the fruitiest of their ERG counterparts. Ghastly.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
Yes, your dreams of an ideologically pure ethnonationalist vehicle for cranks and conspiracy theorists inches ever closer.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
How is it useful for a person who engages in high stakes diplomacy to engage in behaviour seemingly designed to aid a position he and his organisation are officially not in favour of?
I'm reasonably certain this is a calculated act of ridicule towards Brexiteers, not some off-the-cuff remark from a man with no internal censor. Varadkar seems in on it.
This was a remark laser-guided to let the UK know how seriously the EU is taking May's latest doomed displacement activity.
The clitoris has 8,000 nerve endings yet isn't as sensitive as a Brexiteer.
Hilarious stuff today from the Tuskmeister. You have lol. Hell: It ain’t half hot mum!
I'll remind you of this post when we No Deal Brexit.
Why? Because they're suddenly going to bleed support to the Lib Dems? Didn't happen in 2017, no reason to believe it would happen now.
A GE would be about austerity, domestic issues. Brexit is a sideshow to most people outside the westminster bubble.
Labour won votes because of Brexit in 2017 because of tactical voting against May.
It was the death tax that killed May in 2017
Yep - as I continually repeat people rarely vote for their party they vote for the one with the policies they hate least and the death tax (even though it actually solves a problem that needs to be solved) killed the Tories
One of the genuine problems with the UK is the insistence on getting pissed every bloody day. Many middle-class people are effectively high-functioning alcoholics, and sometimes not that high-functioning.
Not just the UK either *looks innocently at footage of M. Juncker*.
Have a good evening.
I was talking to a French co worker the other day and he said his younger brother and sister have picked up "le binge" from when they came to visit him last year. Clearly they are learning from the best!
One of the genuine problems with the UK is the insistence on getting pissed every bloody day. Many middle-class people are effectively high-functioning alcoholics, and sometimes not that high-functioning.
Not just the UK either *looks innocently at footage of M. Juncker*.
Why? Because they're suddenly going to bleed support to the Lib Dems? Didn't happen in 2017, no reason to believe it would happen now.
A GE would be about austerity, domestic issues. Brexit is a sideshow to most people outside the westminster bubble.
Labour won votes because of Brexit in 2017 because of tactical voting against May.
It was the death tax that killed May in 2017
Yep - as I continually repeat people rarely vote for their party they vote for the one with the policies they hate least and the death tax (even though it actually solves a problem that needs to be solved) killed the Tories
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Good. We chose to leave the customs union. Why should she split the party and betray her own manifesto?
Wrong again.
There was nothing on the ballot paper about the Customs Union.
Plenty of things were said by a variety of inept clowns during the referendum campaign.
Only a credulous quarterwit would afford the outpourings of politicians any credence.
In another memorable pithy remark, Tusk referred to David Cameron's 'stupid referendum'. I don't think it's stretching things too far to suggest that in doing so he was implying DC was a stupid politician. He probably thinks much the same of the other UK politicians who have traipsed over to Brussels in the name of Brexit.
You can sense the exasperation. How could any responsible politican engage in such a venture without the semblance of a plan? You can argue with the manner and timing of his remarks, but it's a fair question, and for all the outrage expressed in response it's one to which no answer is likely to be forthcoming.
I think, whatever the wisdom of holding a referendum, Dave was and is a lot smarter than Tusk and Juncker. He saw the migrant crisis coming before all of them, he refused to sign the UK up to the awfully designed fiscal compact because it would hinder our ability to recover from a recession, he point blank refused a highly damaging transaction tax on financial products and finally, he saw the danger in appointing Juncker and tried to stop it. On each occasion Dave has been proved wholly correct and the EU have been wrong.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
It's a view, Max. Another is that Brexit is to him as Iraq is to Blair.
I think on a career level you're correct, his political legacy will be defined by Brexit and even if it turns out to be a great success, he will be judged badly for holding the referendum.
I'm talking about on a personal level, it's really quite obvious that in terms of politics Tusk and Juncker are both dunces. Look at what they have wrought across Europe, one member is leaving, the good times are already over, half of eastern Europe has lurched to the hard right, Italy has a government openly calling for radical anti-EU policies and are spoiling for a fight, the problems with the euro remain unsolved after 10 years. The list goes on. Not only have the two chumps at the top not done anything about these, they are responsible for causing a lot of the discontent in Europe. Their go to solution of "more EU" has failed and will continue to fail.
That Dave saw these flaws and probably pointed it out to them on a number of occasions prior to the brexit negotiation and during them probably made them very bitter.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
It was accepted, but now it looks like it was impossible.
You want to test the idea to destruction, or would you prefer to do something sensible?
I fail to see any impossibility. It may be impossible to agree a deal with the EU and that's a shame if so but it's still possible to leave. You can't make our leaving contingent on the people we are leaving who don't want us to do so.
If the shoe was on the other foot ... if in 2014 Scotland voted by 52/48 Yes only for Cameron (who for some reason didn't resign despite the referendum result) to insist Scotland could only get a deal to leave if they agreed to implement English laws forever, or until England chose to let Scotland stop following English laws ... do you think Salmond would have decided that Scottish Independence was impossible after all?
One of the genuine problems with the UK is the insistence on getting pissed every bloody day. Many middle-class people are effectively high-functioning alcoholics, and sometimes not that high-functioning.
Not just the UK either *looks innocently at footage of M. Juncker*.
Er I think you'll find that was "Sciatica" actually...
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Good. We chose to leave the customs union. Why should she split the party and betray her own manifesto?
Wrong again.
There was nothing on the ballot paper about the Customs Union.
Plenty of things were said by a variety of inept clowns during the referendum campaign.
Only a credulous quarterwit would afford the outpourings of politicians any credence.
There was something on the manifesto about leaving the Customs Union.
One of the genuine problems with the UK is the insistence on getting pissed every bloody day. Many middle-class people are effectively high-functioning alcoholics, and sometimes not that high-functioning.
Not just the UK either *looks innocently at footage of M. Juncker*.
Have a good evening.
Er I think you'll find that was Sciatica actually...
Perhaps he should put a bit more water in his sciatica next time...
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than immediately split her party.
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
The Conservatives are the European party. It's the ERG who'll be out on their ear.
Don't be ridiculous. The europhiliac tendency has always been a small and elite group, and now they're no longer a source of patronage, there's no reason for them at all. They're also as utterly witless and embarrassing as the fruitiest of their ERG counterparts. Ghastly.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
Snip
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
The Conservatives are the European party. It's the ERG who'll be out on their ear.
Don't be ridiculous. The europhiliac tendency has always been a small and elite group, and now they're no longer a source of patronage, there's no reason for them at all. They're also as utterly witless and embarrassing as the fruitiest of their ERG counterparts. Ghastly.
What about the section of Leave support that consider Jo Cox’s murder to be a false flag operation. Where do they fit on your crank scale?
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
Parliament has rejected everything.
Except calling a referendum and then triggering A50.
Why? Because they're suddenly going to bleed support to the Lib Dems? Didn't happen in 2017, no reason to believe it would happen now.
A GE would be about austerity, domestic issues. Brexit is a sideshow to most people outside the westminster bubble.
Labour won votes because of Brexit in 2017 because of tactical voting against May.
It was the death tax that killed May in 2017
Yep - as I continually repeat people rarely vote for their party they vote for the one with the policies they hate least and the death tax (even though it actually solves a problem that needs to be solved) killed the Tories
On reflection, I've concluded that Tusk's comments will be helpful in the long run.
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
Theresa May has been trying that for two and a half years and it doesn't work because the narrative doesn't reflect the truth.
When exactly did she try that? From what I can see, she's been treating the EU with far more respect than they've shown her.
Also it doesn't reflect my own experience, which is that people who've previously been totally switched off politics of all kinds are suddenly hugely excited about the result, because they think their job/house price/physical safety is threatened by Leaving.
Good for Tusk. He sounded really angry. There was no humour whatsoever.
I suspect he was echoing the feeling among the 27 countries and the 17 million in this country who aren't Leavers
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
No. The only way that the Deal can be sold to Parliament is to get Labour onside, by backing permanent Customs Union. May however would rather No Deal than split her party.
Good. We chose to leave the customs union. Why should she split the party and betray her own manifesto?
Wrong again.
There was nothing on the ballot paper about the Customs Union.
Plenty of things were said by a variety of inept clowns during the referendum campaign.
Only a credulous quarterwit would afford the outpourings of politicians any credence.
There was something on the manifesto about leaving the Customs Union.
Which failed to gain a majority in parliament. QED.
As you are a remainer how do you think his comments has helped the peoples vote campaign
I am annoyed, not because of his anger which is evident on here daily, but because he risks hardening attitudes to the EU and makes a deal more difficult
I believe he finally finished off remain in the EU as any likely end destination
No matter how many times that the EU27 repeat that the backstop is not up for renegotiation, May and the Brexiteers are too thick to listen. There reaches a point where Tusk has to be very explicit and blunt in order to be heard.
His language was crass and timing was idiotic
The timing was perfect. The languague got noticed even by Tories with a tin ear.
Yes. It's stiffened their resolve and increased the chances of no deal.
He must be very confident of the capital reserves of the Eurozone banking sector.
You wonder whether confidence is the same as realism...
(Oh, and my Grammar Nazi is now singing the Horst Wessel. A bit more and it will be on 'Person called Romanes, they go the house?')
Tusk is merely supporting May's Deal.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
May's deal is dead. Parliament rejected it. Did you miss that?
Snip
FTFY as I suspect the question of when the Tory party splits is now just a matter of time...
I would hardly call the loss of Soubry et al a split. More like an appendectomy.
The Conservatives are the European party. It's the ERG who'll be out on their ear.
Don't be ridiculous. The europhiliac tendency has always been a small and elite group, and now they're no longer a source of patronage, there's no reason for them at all. They're also as utterly witless and embarrassing as the fruitiest of their ERG counterparts. Ghastly.
It's not ridiculous at all to see th e Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
On reflection, I've concluded that Tusk's comments will be helpful in the long run.
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
It was accepted, but now it looks like it was impossible.
You want to test the idea to destruction, or would you prefer to do something sensible?
I fail to see any impossibility. It may be impossible to agree a deal with the EU and that's a shame if so but it's still possible to leave. You can't make our leaving contingent on the people we are leaving who don't want us to do so.
If the shoe was on the other foot ... if in 2014 Scotland voted by 52/48 Yes only for Cameron (who for some reason didn't resign despite the referendum result) to insist Scotland could only get a deal to leave if they agreed to implement English laws forever, or until England chose to let Scotland stop following English laws ... do you think Salmond would have decided that Scottish Independence was impossible after all?
May's said there will be not be a No Deal exit. Watchagonna do?
We may yet leave. It's not impossible, but it's looking that way (which is what I wrote.) You can't see it? 'None so blind', Philip.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
If they were bright then how did they miss all of these gigantic issues, I mean not only miss them but exacerbate them in a few cases. Honestly, I want to believe you but any political leader with an ounce of sense could have seen that inviting half of the Middle East to Europe was a poor idea and either should have told Germany to deal with the problem they created or had an actually "more EU" solution and forced Merkel to stand down. Instead they let Merkel do what she wanted and then tried to force the countries that wanted no part of her folly to deal with the consequences. If a debate leader in a sixth form politics class wasn't able to see that then they would get a fail.
Incidentally, I think in the long term, Dave got Europe right and they have it wrong. There is no appetite for a federalised EU and the stock "more EU" answer is something that is about to get blown to pieces in the next EU election, even without our participation.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
I think the Remainer types get that perfectly well. They just believe in different freedoms. But it's still the same word. "Four freedoms", you remember?
PB is illustrative of that. Neither PB Remainers nor PB Leavers are any less vehement in their beliefs. You can pretty much say whether any given poster is a Remainer or a Leaver, and there's not much movement any more. I don't see any difference in the willingness to go down fighting.
Which is going to be entertaining on 29th March, particularly if it's No Deal.
I say "entertaining" in the manner of a "ho ho ho jolly politics" observer. But you can conceive scenarios where a shortage of one particular drug (held up at customs, or some administrative confusion over certification, or whatever) could be construed as leading to the death of, say, an already seriously ill kid in Liverpool. The story gets into the Canary or Novara in some exaggerated, misunderstood form; the mainstream media pick it up; and from then we're not far off riots in the Remain-voting cities. Not far at all.
Yes, people may well be going down fighting in the next couple of months, but I wouldn't bet on them being Leavers.
(Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and re-watch GBH.)
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
If they were bright then how did they miss all of these gigantic issues, I mean not only miss them but exacerbate them in a few cases. Honestly, I want to believe you but any political leader with an ounce of sense could have seen that inviting half of the Middle East to Europe was a poor idea and either should have told Germany to deal with the problem they created or had an actually "more EU" solution and forced Merkel to stand down. Instead they let Merkel do what she wanted and then tried to force the countries that wanted no part of her folly to deal with the consequences. If a debate leader in a sixth form politics class wasn't able to see that then they would get a fail.
They made mistakes, Max, and I would agree with those you point out above. But 'dunces'?
Why? Because they're suddenly going to bleed support to the Lib Dems? Didn't happen in 2017, no reason to believe it would happen now.
A GE would be about austerity, domestic issues. Brexit is a sideshow to most people outside the westminster bubble.
Labour won votes because of Brexit in 2017 because of tactical voting against May.
It was the death tax that killed May in 2017
Yep - as I continually repeat people rarely vote for their party they vote for the one with the policies they hate least and the death tax (even though it actually solves a problem that needs to be solved) killed the Tories
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
If they were bright then how did they miss all of these gigantic issues, I mean not only miss them but exacerbate them in a few cases. Honestly, I want to believe you but any political leader with an ounce of sense could have seen that inviting half of the Middle East to Europe was a poor idea and either should have told Germany to deal with the problem they created or had an actually "more EU" solution and forced Merkel to stand down. Instead they let Merkel do what she wanted and then tried to force the countries that wanted no part of her folly to deal with the consequences. If a debate leader in a sixth form politics class wasn't able to see that then they would get a fail.
They made mistakes, Max, and I would agree with those you point out above. But 'dunces'?
Those aren't small mistakes that I've pointed out though, and they are mistakes that Dave (and George) saw coming and kept us well out of.
On reflection, I've concluded that Tusk's comments will be helpful in the long run.
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
Theresa May has been trying that for two and a half years and it doesn't work because the narrative doesn't reflect the truth.
When exactly did she try that? From what I can see, she's been treating the EU with far more respect than they've shown her.
All her speeches on Brexit come from the perspective of thinking that British people universally weren't comfortable in the EU and didn't really like it.
It's not ridiculous at all to see the Tories as more outward facing than Labour. Should the EU be, or become, more of a social union then the roles change. Almost by definition Tories are likely to be less xenophobic than Labour supporters. I agree this flies in the face of the available facts.
We are talking about being in favour of Britain's continuing membership of the EU. That has nothing to do with being outward or inward looking.
An excellent point and very well made.
Spoiled only by the fact that the referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia.
One of the genuine problems with the UK is the insistence on getting pissed every bloody day. Many middle-class people are effectively high-functioning alcoholics, and sometimes not that high-functioning.
Not just the UK either *looks innocently at footage of M. Juncker*.
Have a good evening.
Er I think you'll find that was Sciatica actually...
Perhaps he should put a bit more water in his sciatica next time...
Dan Mallory, author of the best-selling The Woman in the Window, has admitted to lying about having brain cancer. His admission comes after a New Yorker profile accused him of a history of lies about his personal life.
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
I think the Remainer types get that perfectly well. They just believe in different freedoms. But it's still the same word. "Four freedoms", you remember?
PB is illustrative of that. Neither PB Remainers nor PB Leavers are any less vehement in their beliefs. You can pretty much say whether any given poster is a Remainer or a Leaver, and there's not much movement any more. I don't see any difference in the willingness to go down fighting.
Which is going to be entertaining on 29th March, particularly if it's No Deal.
I say "entertaining" in the manner of a "ho ho ho jolly politics" observer. But you can conceive scenarios where a shortage of one particular drug (held up at customs, or some administrative confusion over certification, or whatever) could be construed as leading to the death of, say, an already seriously ill kid in Liverpool. The story gets into the Canary or Novara in some exaggerated, misunderstood form; the mainstream media pick it up; and from then we're not far off riots in the Remain-voting cities. Not far at all.
Yes, people may well be going down fighting in the next couple of months, but I wouldn't bet on them being Leavers.
(Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and re-watch GBH.)
Those are freedoms in a very Orwellian sense - "you lumpen proles can these freedoms that the people you can't elect say you can, if you don't like them, well fuck off because we don't like you, also you can't leave, we'll make it impossible".
Call me Michael Eddington, but this is the thing you remainer types will never get. Sometimes, you've got to go down fighting for the freedom you believe in.
Live free or die.
I think the Remainer types get that perfectly well. They just believe in different freedoms. But it's still the same word. "Four freedoms", you remember?
PB is illustrative of that. Neither PB Remainers nor PB Leavers are any less vehement in their beliefs. You can pretty much say whether any given poster is a Remainer or a Leaver, and there's not much movement any more. I don't see any difference in the willingness to go down fighting.
Which is going to be entertaining on 29th March, particularly if it's No Deal.
I say "entertaining" in the manner of a "ho ho ho jolly politics" observer. But you can conceive scenarios where a shortage of one particular drug (held up at customs, or some administrative confusion over certification, or whatever) could be construed as leading to the death of, say, an already seriously ill kid in Liverpool. The story gets into the Canary or Novara in some exaggerated, misunderstood form; the mainstream media pick it up; and from then we're not far off riots in the Remain-voting cities. Not far at all.
Yes, people may well be going down fighting in the next couple of months, but I wouldn't bet on them being Leavers.
(Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and re-watch GBH.)
My freedom believes in not being told what to do.
Or, if I must be, knowing clearly and exactly how I sack / vote out the person making the law that tells me what I can and can't do.
You need to see the BBC series on Europe currently running, and then think again about 'dunces'. These people are bright. So is Cameron. But he got Europe wrong, and that's what he'll be remembered for.
If they were bright then how did they miss all of these gigantic issues, I mean not only miss them but exacerbate them in a few cases. Honestly, I want to believe you but any political leader with an ounce of sense could have seen that inviting half of the Middle East to Europe was a poor idea and either should have told Germany to deal with the problem they created or had an actually "more EU" solution and forced Merkel to stand down. Instead they let Merkel do what she wanted and then tried to force the countries that wanted no part of her folly to deal with the consequences. If a debate leader in a sixth form politics class wasn't able to see that then they would get a fail.
They made mistakes, Max, and I would agree with those you point out above. But 'dunces'?
Those aren't small mistakes that I've pointed out though, and they are mistakes that Dave (and George) saw coming and kept us well out of.
Comments
Like the Maquis you sold people a lie, there will be consequences.
That's ok then?
"I know that still a very great number of people in the UK, and on the continent, as well as in Ireland, wish for a reversal of this decision. I have always been with you, with all my heart.
"But the facts are unmistakable. At the moment, the pro-Brexit stance of the UK Prime Minister, and the Leader of the Opposition, rules out this question.
"Today, there is no political force and no effective leadership for Remain. I say this without satisfaction, but you can’t argue with the facts."
'No effective leadership.' Cable, Blackford, Cooper, Grieve and all the rest of them - written off, collectively, as a useless rabble. They can make a lot of noise and do their level best to discomfit May and Corbyn in Parliament, but ultimately they're almost out of time yet no closer to achieving their goal.
The overwhelming majority of this nation - remainers and leavers alike - accepted that the UK was leaving the EU after the vote. Even when David Dimbleby was announcing the result he was quite definitive.
“At 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the common market has been reversed by this referendum, to leave the EU. We are absolutely clear now that there is no way that the Remain side can win. It looks as though the gap is going to be something like 52 to 48...
"The British people have spoken, and the answer is we're out."
All but 7 headbangers on the Tory benches have accepted we're out even though many (most?) of them voted to remain. We've accepted as a nation the decision.
Tusk, Barnier et al haven't. This is why we're approaching things from different angles. This wasn't a setback, it was a decision made.
Assume Starfleet is right, that land now belongs to the cardassians.
That land is ulitmately taken over by the dominion.
That others have been able to bully and steal the land out from under the noses of the Maquis doesn't make it right.
Eddington was a freedom fighter. Sisko and the Federation were the bad guys.
That is why his remarks are so damaging. If they weren't true, they'd just be laughed at. They reason they are hitting nerves is because they are not only offensively expressed but entirely accurate (just as my hits at Gove's education policy rile his supporters so much because they have no answers).
But - and a big but - if he wants to change this, he's just made it all but impossible to do so. That's why diplomats learn to STFU especially when they are right.
Sisko was literally a God.
There may be Conservative and Labour MPs who privately would support remaining in the EU but for whatever reason cannot break the binds of Party loyalty.
The other problem for Tusk is this democracy business - there's a strong sense that irrespective of whether the decision to vote LEAVE on 23/6/16 was or will prove to be the right one, that decision has to be respected and that means we have to leave the EU either on 29/3/19 or following some form of transition.
As to whether a Party or group committed to seeking to rejoin the EU gains any traction in the next five years, that remains to be seen. One thing they will need to be clear on is or are the terms under which we would rejoin.
While May agitates against her own Deal.
We are through the looking glass.
Assuming you're a UK citizen then the UK is you, and me, and others too. That's it. We decide.
Since the wormhole aliens exist outside of linear time he was always a god.
His momma was a wormhole alien.
I most certainly do not and I want TM deal signed. Tusk made that much harder today
And I am consistent with my condemnation of ERG though wanting anyone in hell is not in my mindset
You want to test the idea to destruction, or would you prefer to do something sensible?
He may think revoke is the alternative. But it isn't. Crashout is the alternative.
Early election might not be good for Corbyn.
It will be hilarious stuff.
I think some of that comes from being elected but a lot of it is because he is smarter, and these insults from the EU and others are born out of jealousy.
https://screenrant.com/star-trek-deep-space-nine-alternate-ending/
Would have made a pretty crap ending... Sisko ascending to godhood wasn't great, having him bring the wormhole aliens into the federation would have been better.
https://www.theredroar.com/2019/02/exclusive-corbyn-branded-eu-military-frankenstein-and-trashed-second-irish-referendum-in-unearthed-footage/
A GE would be about austerity, domestic issues. Brexit is a sideshow to most people outside the westminster bubble.
I think the EU are more like the Borg, if we're going for Star Trek races. Maybe a mix of the Borg and Federation.
I think Leave is definitely the Maquis, which is why they hate us so much, they can't understand why anyone would want to leave their paradise, and if we show that it's not so bad on the outside then others on the inside might get ideas.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/diet/do-tell-baby-boomer-parents-drinking-much/
The quicker we remind ourselves what a colossal majority there is in the UK for "we don't like the EU", the quicker we can move on from obsessing over the relatively more narrow majority for "the benefits of leaving the EU outweigh the difficulties associated with leaving", the better.
The problem is that since the referendum, both sides have seemingly decided that Leave and Remain are local rival football clubs who hate each other because they always have done. We need to unite around a common narrative, and (to me) the most obvious pathway involves reminding ourselves (both sides) about all the things the EU does that we don't like and have have done.
Indeed, while Blair remains hated on both sides Cameron has quickly faded away, a la Major. I think in the end he will not be hated. That's not to say he will be considered a great Prime Minister. But then, nor will Blair.
I'm talking about on a personal level, it's really quite obvious that in terms of politics Tusk and Juncker are both dunces. Look at what they have wrought across Europe, one member is leaving, the good times are already over, half of eastern Europe has lurched to the hard right, Italy has a government openly calling for radical anti-EU policies and are spoiling for a fight, the problems with the euro remain unsolved after 10 years. The list goes on. Not only have the two chumps at the top not done anything about these, they are responsible for causing a lot of the discontent in Europe. Their go to solution of "more EU" has failed and will continue to fail.
That Dave saw these flaws and probably pointed it out to them on a number of occasions prior to the brexit negotiation and during them probably made them very bitter.
Have a good evening.
That won’t be the fault of Tusk.
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857
There was nothing on the ballot paper about the Customs Union.
Plenty of things were said by a variety of inept clowns during the referendum campaign.
Only a credulous quarterwit would afford the outpourings of politicians any credence.
If the shoe was on the other foot ... if in 2014 Scotland voted by 52/48 Yes only for Cameron (who for some reason didn't resign despite the referendum result) to insist Scotland could only get a deal to leave if they agreed to implement English laws forever, or until England chose to let Scotland stop following English laws ... do you think Salmond would have decided that Scottish Independence was impossible after all?
Er I think you'll find that was "Sciatica" actually...
Also it doesn't reflect my own experience, which is that people who've previously been totally switched off politics of all kinds are suddenly hugely excited about the result, because they think their job/house price/physical safety is threatened by Leaving.
We may yet leave. It's not impossible, but it's looking that way (which is what I wrote.) You can't see it? 'None so blind', Philip.
Incidentally, I think in the long term, Dave got Europe right and they have it wrong. There is no appetite for a federalised EU and the stock "more EU" answer is something that is about to get blown to pieces in the next EU election, even without our participation.
PB is illustrative of that. Neither PB Remainers nor PB Leavers are any less vehement in their beliefs. You can pretty much say whether any given poster is a Remainer or a Leaver, and there's not much movement any more. I don't see any difference in the willingness to go down fighting.
Which is going to be entertaining on 29th March, particularly if it's No Deal.
I say "entertaining" in the manner of a "ho ho ho jolly politics" observer. But you can conceive scenarios where a shortage of one particular drug (held up at customs, or some administrative confusion over certification, or whatever) could be construed as leading to the death of, say, an already seriously ill kid in Liverpool. The story gets into the Canary or Novara in some exaggerated, misunderstood form; the mainstream media pick it up; and from then we're not far off riots in the Remain-voting cities. Not far at all.
Yes, people may well be going down fighting in the next couple of months, but I wouldn't bet on them being Leavers.
(Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and re-watch GBH.)
https://twitter.com/queen_uk/status/1093190109967593472?s=21
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-47144368
Or, if I must be, knowing clearly and exactly how I sack / vote out the person making the law that tells me what I can and can't do.
Everything else is bullshit.