On a sliding scale it probably does better than most British papers (Sun, Mail, Express, Telegraph etc.)
I agree with that. Sadly the Telegraph is no longer a serious newspaper. Still there are plenty of deceptive headlines in the Guardian, although, to be fair to Katherine Viner, it's not as bad as it was under Rusbridger,
The Guardian "trick", like the Mail, is often omission. They will omit some crucial bits of info to spin a story. We see it regularly in the mail over say soft sentences of criminals, and the Guardian over tales of migrants being deported.
It'd be okay if balance wasn't judged to be wet Tory and dry Tory, and centrist. Which in fairness the BBC is getting a bit better for, even if it annoys some on the right that the left actually gets a voice these days.
There's plenty of balance to that - just tune in at 6.30pm to R4 most evenings to listen to their comedy* shows.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
It does look as if the EU are standing firm until after the 14th Feb debate and votes in the HOC
I can see the logic in that and in the meantime we can all look, in despair, at the nonsense that is the 'Malthouse' plan.
I expect TM will wait until after mid Feb before entering talks in the EU following which she will no doubt re-submit the plan, adjusted or otherwise, and see how many ERG blink and how many labour mps vote for it.
TM is going to need an extension to A50 at least for 3 months and I expect that request to be made sometime in March
I expect the deal will go through by the end of June, just before the EU re-convene in July
Big_,G, if May is seriously planning an extension then March is really far too late. It's less than a month before the deadline, orders will have gone out and it raises the risk that at least one of the 27 won't react in time. This isn't a science fiction movie where you can stop the countdown at one, it's real life.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
Fair enough. Consider the sentence modified to "at least one of the 27 will veto it"
EUCO comes to unanimous decisions all the time. Why should this be any different?
If - say - the Danish Prime Minister stuck up his hand, and said "I'd like to veto this extension", then he would come under enormous pressure from other leaders. Unless there was a really compelling domestic reason to veto the extension (and I'm struggling to think of any countries where that might be the case), then people get in line.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
It needs a European Council meeting first. One is not scheduled until the 21st March. Now, Donald Tusk does have the general authority to schedule extraordinary meetings of the council, but it turns out the diaries of 27 national leaders tends to get quite busy and Tusk would need a DAMN GOOD reason to drag the leaders of Europe back to Brussels and put "listen to more of May's robotic pleading for why it's their job to save the UK from itself" on the agenda.
EUCO has had extraordinary meetings held by phone before (and did at almost zero notice during the Greek crisis). Not only that, but in the event that - say - Emmanuel Macron was otherwise engaged, then he would delegate to someone else
The idea that the EU would be unable to schedule a 15 minute phone call, and therefore an extension is palpably absurd.
I didn't say the EU is unable to, I'm saying it doesn't want to. Tusk's decision not to schedule a monthly EUCO meeting in Jan or Feb is a clear sign the European leaders are trying to avoid her. May can "go to Brussels" all she likes, but if the national leaders aren't there, all she can really do is treat herself to a gauffre, have Juncker ruffle her hair, collect her "I'm sorry I missed you" cards from Tusk and then hop on the Eurostar back home again.
I see with labour finances the issue is fall in those members paying their subs...I guess that’s the problem when you market to a generation of people used to and expect to get something for nothing.
I see with labour finances the issue is fall in those members paying their subs...I guess that’s the problem when you market to a generation of people used to and expect to get something for nothing.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
It needs a European Council meeting first. One is not scheduled until the 21st March. Now, Donald Tusk does have the general authority to schedule extraordinary meetings of the council, but it turns out the diaries of 27 national leaders tends to get quite busy and Tusk would need a DAMN GOOD reason to drag the leaders of Europe back to Brussels and put "listen to more of May's robotic pleading for why it's their job to save the UK from itself" on the agenda.
EUCO has had extraordinary meetings held by phone before (and did at almost zero notice during the Greek crisis). Not only that, but in the event that - say - Emmanuel Macron was otherwise engaged, then he would delegate to someone else
The idea that the EU would be unable to schedule a 15 minute phone call, and therefore an extension is palpably absurd.
I didn't say the EU is unable to, I'm saying it doesn't want to. Tusk's decision not to schedule a monthly EUCO meeting in Jan or Feb is a clear sign the European leaders are trying to avoid her. May can "go to Brussels" all she likes, but if the national leaders aren't there, all she can really do is treat herself to a gauffre, have Juncker ruffle her hair, collect her "I'm sorry I missed you" cards from Tusk and then hop on the Eurostar back home again.
Well that's a different point.
My view is that if Mrs May needs an extension up to the European Parliament elections, that will be granted without much difficulty. If she wanted one that went beyond there, well that's a very different story.
It does look as if the EU are standing firm until after the 14th Feb debate and votes in the HOC
I can see the logic in that and in the meantime we can all look, in despair, at the nonsense that is the 'Malthouse' plan.
I expect TM will wait until after mid Feb before entering talks in the EU following which she will no doubt re-submit the plan, adjusted or otherwise, and see how many ERG blink and how many labour mps vote for it.
TM is going to need an extension to A50 at least for 3 months and I expect that request to be made sometime in March
I expect the deal will go through by the end of June, just before the EU re-convene in July
Big_,G, if May is seriously planning an extension then March is really far too late. It's less than a month before the deadline, orders will have gone out and it raises the risk that at least one of the 27 won't react in time. This isn't a science fiction movie where you can stop the countdown at one, it's real life.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
Fair enough. Consider the sentence modified to "at least one of the 27 will veto it"
EUCO comes to unanimous decisions all the time. Why should this be any different?
If - say - the Danish Prime Minister stuck up his hand, and said "I'd like to veto this extension", then he would come under enormous pressure from other leaders. Unless there was a really compelling domestic reason to veto the extension (and I'm struggling to think of any countries where that might be the case), then people get in line.
It does look as if the EU are standing firm until after the 14th Feb debate and votes in the HOC
I can see the logic in that and in the meantime we can all look, in despair, at the nonsense that is the 'Malthouse' plan.
I expect TM will wait until after mid Feb before entering talks in the EU following which she will no doubt re-submit the plan, adjusted or otherwise, and see how many ERG blink and how many labour mps vote for it.
TM is going to need an extension to A50 at least for 3 months and I expect that request to be made sometime in March
I expect the deal will go through by the end of June, just before the EU re-convene in July
Big_,G, if May is seriously planning an extension then March is really far too late. It's less than a month before the deadline, orders will have gone out and it raises the risk that at least one of the 27 won't react in time. This isn't a science fiction movie where you can stop the countdown at one, it's real life.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
Fair enough. Consider the sentence modified to "at least one of the 27 will veto it"
EUCO comes to unanimous decisions all the time. Why should this be any different?
If - say - the Danish Prime Minister stuck up his hand, and said "I'd like to veto this extension", then he would come under enormous pressure from other leaders. Unless there was a really compelling domestic reason to veto the extension (and I'm struggling to think of any countries where that might be the case), then people get in line.
It's very unusual for the EUCO to vote. Donald Tusk's main job, as the man who controls the council's agenda, is to ensure that doesn't happen by having diplomats agree the wording before EUCO meetings, and have the council rubber-stamp it without objections.
When the Council pointedly amended the draft decision in December, to remove May's fluff text about the backstop, it was taken as being a deliberate and public slapdown for May, precisely because it was so unusual.
Maybe having an MP who actually says positive things about the EU and has repeatedly for decades makes a difference.
Also, Rushcliffe includes the leafy suburb of West Brigdford (Trent cricket ground area). I would guess this is pretty Remainy territory.
Yes, sand although it's mostly pretty rural it's also very high-income, and class is relevant to Remainism. But I'm sure having Ken as MP helps (Soubry didn't quite bring it off - Broxtowe narrowly went Leave despite both her and FWIW my backing for Remain).
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Theresa May and the Conservatives WILL take the country out with No Deal on 29th March. If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
It does look as if the EU are standing firm until after the 14th Feb debate and votes in the HOC
I can see the logic in that and in the meantime we can all look, in despair, at the nonsense that is the 'Malthouse' plan.
I expect TM will wait until after mid Feb before entering talks in the EU following which she will no doubt re-submit the plan, adjusted or otherwise, and see how many ERG blink and how many labour mps vote for it.
TM is going to need an extension to A50 at least for 3 months and I expect that request to be made sometime in March
I expect the deal will go through by the end of June, just before the EU re-convene in July
Big_,G, if May is seriously planning an extension then March is really far too late. It's less than a month before the deadline, orders will have gone out and it raises the risk that at least one of the 27 won't react in time. This isn't a science fiction movie where you can stop the countdown at one, it's real life.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
Fair enough. Consider the sentence modified to "at least one of the 27 will veto it"
EUCO comes to unanimous decisions all the time. Why should this be any different?
If - say - the Danish Prime Minister stuck up his hand, and said "I'd like to veto this extension", then he would come under enormous pressure from other leaders. Unless there was a really compelling domestic reason to veto the extension (and I'm struggling to think of any countries where that might be the case), then people get in line.
Spain (on Gibraltar) just for the laughs?
The Spanish economy benefits enormously from British tourism. I think it unlikely they will want to risk that.
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Theresa May and the Conservatives WILL take the country out with No Deal on 29th March. If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
Well that's the default position at the moment and parliament are very happy to say what they don't want, less so what they do want.
It's very unusual for the EUCO to vote. Donald Tusk's main job, as the man who controls the council's agenda, is to ensure that doesn't happen by having diplomats agree the wording before EUCO meetings, and have the council rubber-stamp it without objections.
When the Council pointedly amended the draft decision in December, to remove May's fluff text about the backstop, it was taken as being a deliberate and public slapdown for May, precisely because it was so unusual.
That's literally nothing to do with whether they would agree an extension.
Don't forget, the EU may have done some No Deal planning (or at least rather more than the UK), but only one of the 27 has passed primary legislation regarding the rights of British citizens in a No Deal scenario. None of them - as far as I know - have done anything regarding withholding taxes or double taxation.
All of the EU27 depend on the UK as an export market or a conduit in one way or another. While the desire to "win" the negotiations is strong, so is the desire not to tip economies back into recession.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
You are Aaron Bastani and I claim my £5...
Sorry Paul no Brain Force bills for me... try your Tory mates at Turning point UK, they're into that sort of thing.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
You are Aaron Bastani and I claim my £5...
Sorry Paul no Brain Force bills for me... try your Tory mates at Turning point UK, they're into that sort of thing.
It'd be okay if balance wasn't judged to be wet Tory and dry Tory, and centrist. Which in fairness the BBC is getting a bit better for, even if it annoys some on the right that the left actually gets a voice these days.
There's plenty of balance to that - just tune in at 6.30pm to R4 most evenings to listen to their comedy* shows.
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Theresa May and the Conservatives WILL take the country out with No Deal on 29th March. If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
I've been coming around to the idea no deal is going to happen.
Either the ERG break, May changes things to work with Labour or she cancels Brexit.
I can see good reasons why none of those will happen, so no deal it is.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
You are Aaron Bastani and I claim my £5...
Sorry Paul no Brain Force bills for me... try your Tory mates at Turning point UK, they're into that sort of thing.
You know I am not a Tory right?
I was going by vote rather than necessarily membership.
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Theresa May and the Conservatives WILL take the country out with No Deal on 29th March. If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
It does look as if the EU are standing firm until after the 14th Feb debate and votes in the HOC
I can see the logic in that and in the meantime we can all look, in despair, at the nonsense that is the 'Malthouse' plan.
I expect TM will wait until after mid Feb before entering talks in the EU following which she will no doubt re-submit the plan, adjusted or otherwise, and see how many ERG blink and how many labour mps vote for it.
TM is going to need an extension to A50 at least for 3 months and I expect that request to be made sometime in March
I expect the deal will go through by the end of June, just before the EU re-convene in July
Big_,G, if May is seriously planning an extension then March is really far too late. It's less than a month before the deadline, orders will have gone out and it raises the risk that at least one of the 27 won't react in time. This isn't a science fiction movie where you can stop the countdown at one, it's real life.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
Fair enough. Consider the sentence modified to "at least one of the 27 will veto it"
EUCO comes to unanimous decisions all the time. Why should this be any different?
If - say - the Danish Prime Minister stuck up his hand, and said "I'd like to veto this extension", then he would come under enormous pressure from other leaders. Unless there was a really compelling domestic reason to veto the extension (and I'm struggling to think of any countries where that might be the case), then people get in line.
It's very unusual for the EUCO to vote. Donald Tusk's main job, as the man who controls the council's agenda, is to ensure that doesn't happen by having diplomats agree the wording before EUCO meetings, and have the council rubber-stamp it without objections.
When the Council pointedly amended the draft decision in December, to remove May's fluff text about the backstop, it was taken as being a deliberate and public slapdown for May, precisely because it was so unusual.
Yes, the EU prefers these to be sorted in advance of any meeting.
I don't think there will be an extension just so Tory MPs can fart about chasing unicorns.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
You are Aaron Bastani and I claim my £5...
Sorry Paul no Brain Force bills for me... try your Tory mates at Turning point UK, they're into that sort of thing.
You know I am not a Tory right?
I was going by vote rather than necessarily membership.
I have voted for them once in my whole life, and it was an anti-jez vote.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
For Gods sake Guido is not fake news. He has an agenda, no different from the Guardian. As long as you read t in the knowledge that he is likely to be putting some sort of libertarian line, then it is actually quite good for breaking stories - it was great during the expenses scandal and he has taken on a number of Tories over the years too
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Theresa May and the Conservatives WILL take the country out with No Deal on 29th March. If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
Would Corbyn be to the left of Attlee?
If there's a Labour government, based on current polling, it's gonna need the SNP and maybe the LDs to give it a workable majority. That will likely lead to Corbyn's government being a streak of watery, centrist, FBPE piss, regardless of what the Cult of Magic Grandpa desires.
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Theresa May and the Conservatives WILL take the country out with No Deal on 29th March. If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
About as interesting as all those Prince Charles letters the Guardian spent years trying to get made public. I presume more must have been said in private by the government.
If technological solutions to the backstop are possible then why fear the backstop . It’s amazing the media never ask this question of the ERG nutjobs . Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the ERG are a bunch of lying spivs .
I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Theresa May and the Conservatives WILL take the country out with No Deal on 29th March. If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
Would Corbyn be to the left of Attlee?
If there's a Labour government, based on current polling, it's gonna need the SNP and maybe the LDs to give it a workable majority. That will likely lead to Corbyn's government being a streak of watery, centrist, FBPE piss, regardless of what the Cult of Magic Grandpa desires.
It won't be on current polling though. If we crash out enough people are going to marmelised by the situation to be very angry, whether or not thy were previously Tory voters.
"On the EU side, nobody is considering this. Asked whether any assurance would help to get the Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons, the answers of MPs were ... inconclusive .... The meeting confirmed that the EU did well to start its no deal preparations in December 2017."
Whilst the UK fannies arround with riding unicorns around Parliament Square, the EU is battening down the hatches, bracing the mainsail and preparing to sail headlong into a No Deal Brexit.
If technological solutions to the backstop are possible then why fear the backstop . It’s amazing the media never ask this question of the ERG nutjobs . Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the ERG are a bunch of lying spivs .
The answer is both regularly asked and regularly answered.
It is because technological solutions are only able to work if both parties want it to work. If one party wants technological solutions not to work, then they won't work.
"On the EU side, nobody is considering this. Asked whether any assurance would help to get the Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons, the answers of MPs were ... inconclusive .... The meeting confirmed that the EU did well to start its no deal preparations in December 2017."
Whilst the UK fannies arround with riding unicorns around Parliament Square, the EU is battening down the hatches, bracing the mainsail and preparing to sail headlong into a No Deal Brexit.
If technological solutions to the backstop are possible then why fear the backstop . It’s amazing the media never ask this question of the ERG nutjobs . Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the ERG are a bunch of lying spivs .
There are two reasons:
Firstly, the ERG fear that the EU is not sincere in its desire to find a technological solution. They believe that the backstop is designed to remove Northern Ireland from the UK, and reunite Ireland.
Secondly, some (but only some) members do not want the UK to have a close relationship with the EU. They believe a clean break is the only way to achieve Global Britain.
My view is that if the EU were not to act in good faith over finding a technological solution, and I would be very happy with an independent international panel adjudging this, then the UK would be well within its rights to announce that it was leaving the UK-EU treaty. A treaty requires that both sides stick to their obligations, and the EU is obligated to help find a solution.
I suspect some form of words outside of the actual Withdrawal Agreement could be reached that would satisfy many people with regards to the backstop.
However, the second group - who are perhaps a dozen or two in number - will never be satisfied. There will always be a reason why the deal is not acceptable. Because of these holdouts, Mrs May will require some Labour or other votes to pass the WA.
May's 'negotiating' with the EU reminds me of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
It's worth pointing out that May isn't currently negotiating with the EU.
What we've done in the past week:
1) set up a working group consisting of Tory brexiteers and one remainer who's beginning to suspect she's been made a patsty. 2) That's it
Lol @ beginning to suspect. That much has been obvious from the start.
Malthouse was on Politics Live earlier, and despite trying to talk across everyone else couldn't really explain how his 'compromise' was going to solve everything. He also seemed strangely reluctant to have his name attached to it.
If technological solutions to the backstop are possible then why fear the backstop . It’s amazing the media never ask this question of the ERG nutjobs . Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the ERG are a bunch of lying spivs .
There are two reasons:
Firstly, the ERG fear that the EU is not sincere in its desire to find a technological solution. They believe that the backstop is designed to remove Northern Ireland from the UK, and reunite Ireland.
Secondly, some (but only some) members do not want the UK to have a close relationship with the EU. They believe a clean break is the only way to achieve Global Britain.
My view is that if the EU were not to act in good faith over finding a technological solution, and I would be very happy with an independent international panel adjudging this, then the UK would be well within its rights to announce that it was leaving the UK-EU treaty. A treaty requires that both sides stick to their obligations, and the EU is obligated to help find a solution.
I suspect some form of words outside of the actual Withdrawal Agreement could be reached that would satisfy many people with regards to the backstop.
However, the second group - who are perhaps a dozen or two in number - will never be satisfied. There will always be a reason why the deal is not acceptable. Because of these holdouts, Mrs May will require some Labour or other votes to pass the WA.
Wrong windmill.
Neither the UK nor the EU want the backstop. It is an insurance policy which would be rendered irrelevant after a FTA has been concluded. For the EU the backstop and a customs arrangement is "cherry picking".
More likely the (more sensible [are there any?] members of the) ERG realise that for all their idiotic bravado over easiest trade deal in history an actual trade deal with the EU will take several years and therefore the backstop as it stands will almost certainly be invoked. They realise that the WA as written is such that the two year period is hopelessly inadequate.
If technological solutions to the backstop are possible then why fear the backstop . It’s amazing the media never ask this question of the ERG nutjobs . Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the ERG are a bunch of lying spivs .
The answer is both regularly asked and regularly answered.
It is because technological solutions are only able to work if both parties want it to work. If one party wants technological solutions not to work, then they won't work.
Or perhaps those technological solutions aren’t there yet . There is no border anywhere in the world which is soft with different Customs arrangements on either side of that .
This is another Leave lie peddled in the hope it dupes the public .
If technological solutions to the backstop are possible then why fear the backstop . It’s amazing the media never ask this question of the ERG nutjobs . Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the ERG are a bunch of lying spivs .
There are two reasons:
Firstly, the ERG fear that the EU is not sincere in its desire to find a technological solution. They believe that the backstop is designed to remove Northern Ireland from the UK, and reunite Ireland.
Secondly, some (but only some) members do not want the UK to have a close relationship with the EU. They believe a clean break is the only way to achieve Global Britain.
My view is that if the EU were not to act in good faith over finding a technological solution, and I would be very happy with an independent international panel adjudging this, then the UK would be well within its rights to announce that it was leaving the UK-EU treaty. A treaty requires that both sides stick to their obligations, and the EU is obligated to help find a solution.
I suspect some form of words outside of the actual Withdrawal Agreement could be reached that would satisfy many people with regards to the backstop.
However, the second group - who are perhaps a dozen or two in number - will never be satisfied. There will always be a reason why the deal is not acceptable. Because of these holdouts, Mrs May will require some Labour or other votes to pass the WA.
Wrong windmill.
Neither the UK nor the EU want the backstop. It is an insurance policy which would be rendered irrelevant after a FTA has been concluded. For the EU the backstop and a customs arrangement is "cherry picking".
More likely the (more sensible [are there any?] members of the) ERG realise that for all their idiotic bravado over easiest trade deal in history an actual trade deal with the EU will take several years and therefore the backstop as it stands will almost certainly be invoked. They realise that the WA as written is such that the two year period is hopelessly inadequate.
As Robert says, some of them simply need to be against anything that even involves glancing at the EU through the net curtains.
For the others, they want to get us beyond the point of no return before people wake up to the whole thing being a fraud.
Once we've called their bluff over Ireland we can start talking seriously.
You think No Deal means this endless merry-go-round of stupid will be over? Oh honey, no.
The EU will be happy to talk once we've No Dealed. First order of business: a backstop.
There will be no need for a backstop as there will be no hard border in Ireland. That is why this is a ludicrous and obvious bluff.
Do you mean there will be no customs checks or enforcement, like between France and Belgium, or there will be passport checks, like between Switzerland and France?
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
You are Aaron Bastani and I claim my £5...
Sorry Paul no Brain Force bills for me... try your Tory mates at Turning point UK, they're into that sort of thing.
You know I am not a Tory right?
I was going by vote rather than necessarily membership.
I have voted for them once in my whole life, and it was an anti-jez vote.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
PJW / Infowars is also clearly bullshit conspiracy fake news, and of course Breitbart. And hence why you never get me linking to it.
Novara media, Squawkbox are taking the Infowars model and doing it in the UK from a far left perspective.
Novara haven't got half the problems of the likes of Guido, the Mail and others, you just like them because their lies suit your political position.
You are Aaron Bastani and I claim my £5...
Sorry Paul no Brain Force bills for me... try your Tory mates at Turning point UK, they're into that sort of thing.
You know I am not a Tory right?
I was going by vote rather than necessarily membership.
I have voted for them once in my whole life, and it was an anti-jez vote.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
It fails comprehensively the @HYUFD Tory qualification criteria.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
For Gods sake Guido is not fake news. He has an agenda, no different from the Guardian. As long as you read t in the knowledge that he is likely to be putting some sort of libertarian line, then it is actually quite good for breaking stories - it was great during the expenses scandal and he has taken on a number of Tories over the years too
I'm sure he gets some stuff right now and again and it isn't as if everything in the Mail is a flat out lie but I'm not sure you can call Novara Media fake news when you link to these sites, that is the original person I was arguing with rather than you personally.
You'll be claiming it is as bad as the Daily Mail next....
If you like Guido that's cool but I don't think you can really call out other sites as fake news and conspiracy theories when you link to the Alt right.
Your attempt at equivalence is just utter utter horseshit. There used to be political scrapbook, that was left leaning version of Staines, again that didn't push conspiracy theories ala Alex Jones / Novara.
As I say, Left Foot Forward, no complaints about that blog, it was actually very good read. Labour List back in the day was ok too.
The reality is Staines for years has broken big scandals and the range of newspapers regularly buy his stories. Politicians from across the political spectrum read to it and link it. If you get the cross hairs from him you are normally in big trouble. So as a political betting site, it makes sense to act accordingly.
There is a reason Paul Joseph Watson is excited about Turning Point UK along with a few Conservative politicians, they know from guido their infowars style works in the UK on the right. I'm sure he mixes some truth in with the conspiracy and fake news to keep you onside.
Just watch out when they start pushing the brain force pills!
For Gods sake Guido is not fake news. He has an agenda, no different from the Guardian. As long as you read t in the knowledge that he is likely to be putting some sort of libertarian line, then it is actually quite good for breaking stories - it was great during the expenses scandal and he has taken on a number of Tories over the years too
He was crap during the cash-for-honors scandal.
He used to post regularly on here in those days. He led a lot of punters over a cliff. Then when the case against Blair collapsed, he disappeared. Haven't noticed him posting here since.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
I can't say I have been building a profile but TBH I had you down as one of the stronger Tory supporters, my mistake. Apologies.
May's 'negotiating' with the EU reminds me of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
Except the UK has no mass driver capable of dropping tons of rock on to selected targets at high velocity. Well, we have Trident I suppose, but threatening to nuke Brussels might be a bit of an overreaction.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
I've criticised progress on here and argued with say Rochdale Pioneers but I don't think I've ever actually called him a Tory. I haven't with Southam (pretty sure) and he actually isn't Labour (he was)
Except the UK has no mass driver capable of dropping tons of rock on to selected targets at high velocity. Well, we have Trident I suppose, but threatening to nuke Brussels might be a bit of an overreaction.
I'm pretty sure it's the only policy option that could carry the ERG block.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
TBH, I don't even really know who the Tories are now. Are they still the party of Cameron / Osborne, are they the party of f##k business Boris or JRM and the No-Dealers. And May seems to have little vision of what she wants to achieve (other than Brexit).
I genuinely don't really know.
I guess at least know what I get if I vote Labour, and it isn't the days of Blair, backed up by Balls / Cooper / Miliband etc.
And the Lib Dems might as well just give their seats to that bloke, Mr Stop Brexit.
Completely off topic, if anyone is looking for a really exciting Young Adult book (that can also be read by adults...) then can I recommend Six of Crows. It's set in a steampunk version of Amsterdam, and is a thoroughly enjoyable romp. (At least, I couldn't put it down...)
I try to avoid YA novels. As an adult it's a bit weird, but the upside is you can ignore everything Brandon Sanderson or Ernest Cline writes. So swings and roundabouts then...
Some kids books are excellent. "A Series of Unfortunate Events" was a masterclass in narrative technique, weapons grade snark, and vocabulary enhancement. The author's adult novels, disappointing.
Absolutely loved them. The number of nights bed time stories collapsed into helpless laughter. The number of times my children asked what does some unusual word mean, just before the hilarious explanation.
Once we've called their bluff over Ireland we can start talking seriously.
You think No Deal means this endless merry-go-round of stupid will be over? Oh honey, no.
The EU will be happy to talk once we've No Dealed. First order of business: a backstop.
There will be no need for a backstop as there will be no hard border in Ireland. That is why this is a ludicrous and obvious bluff.
Do you mean there will be no customs checks or enforcement, like between France and Belgium, or there will be passport checks, like between Switzerland and France?
I mean there will be no checks.
Ireland has no intention to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario. The UK has no intention to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario. The EU has no ability to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario.
If a no deal scenario actually happens and the border remains open then it is the EU, not the UK or Ireland, with the biggest headache as far as Ireland is concerned. We and Ireland will be having our cake and eating it by not enforcing the border. That is why the EU is desperate to tie down the ludicrous backstop now.
If the bluff gets called then there's no need to deal with the border issue as its already not getting dealt with. Instead there's a need to fix the fact they have a gaping hole in their Single Market to a non-member. Which is best dealt with by a deal we can and will ratify - which means no backstop.
Only way a backstop remains after no deal is if the border gets enforced (won't happen) or we suffer so much we go back on bended knees desperate for anything (won't happen either).
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
I've criticised progress on here and argued with say Rochdale Pioneers but I don't think I've ever actually called him a Tory. I haven't with Southam (pretty sure) and he actually isn't Labour (he was)
I’m sorry but that is your problem in a nutshell. You have to see SO as Labour because he is - even if he doesn’t support Corbyn
Except the UK has no mass driver capable of dropping tons of rock on to selected targets at high velocity. Well, we have Trident I suppose, but threatening to nuke Brussels might be a bit of an overreaction.
I'm pretty sure it's the only policy option that could carry the ERG block.
They'd complain that it was abject surrender because we weren't also nuking Strasbourg.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
TBH, I don't even really know who the Tories are now. Are they still the party of Cameron / Osborne, are they the party of f##k business Boris or JRM and the No-Dealers. And May seems to have little vision of what she wants to achieve (other than Brexit).
I genuinely don't really know.
I guess at least know what I get if I vote Labour, and it isn't the days of Blair, backed up by Balls / Cooper / Miliband etc.
And the Lib Dems might as well just give their seats to that bloke, Mr Stop Brexit.
Would you vote for a 'new centrist party' if there was a serious offering that had the potential to win over voting for Tories and Labour at the next election?
Except the UK has no mass driver capable of dropping tons of rock on to selected targets at high velocity. Well, we have Trident I suppose, but threatening to nuke Brussels might be a bit of an overreaction.
I'm pretty sure it's the only policy option that could carry the ERG block.
They'd complain that it was abject surrender because we weren't also nuking Strasbourg.
Send 1/4 of the nukes there but make the planes take them to Brussels then move back to Strasbourg, then back to Brussels again.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
TBH, I don't even really know who the Tories are now. Are they still the party of Cameron / Osborne, are they the party of f##k business Boris or JRM and the No-Dealers. And May seems to have little vision of what she wants to achieve (other than Brexit).
I genuinely don't really know.
I guess at least know what I get if I vote Labour, and it isn't the days of Blair, backed up by Balls / Cooper / Miliband etc.
And the Lib Dems might as well just give their seats to that bloke, Mr Stop Brexit.
Would you vote for a 'new centrist party' if there was a serious offering that had the potential to win over voting for Tories and Labour at the next election?
I would certainly give them serious consideration. It depends on their policies, what the local situation is and how my vote might change that and who they put up as the potential MP.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
I've criticised progress on here and argued with say Rochdale Pioneers but I don't think I've ever actually called him a Tory. I haven't with Southam (pretty sure) and he actually isn't Labour (he was)
I’m sorry but that is your problem in a nutshell. You have to see SO as Labour because he is - even if he doesn’t support Corbyn
He said on here in a post previously that he left Labour, what I said was a specific reference to membership, as the thing I was replying to said 'signed up members'
Completely off topic, if anyone is looking for a really exciting Young Adult book (that can also be read by adults...) then can I recommend Six of Crows. It's set in a steampunk version of Amsterdam, and is a thoroughly enjoyable romp. (At least, I couldn't put it down...)
I try to avoid YA novels. As an adult it's a bit weird, but the upside is you can ignore everything Brandon Sanderson or Ernest Cline writes. So swings and roundabouts then...
Some kids books are excellent. "A Series of Unfortunate Events" was a masterclass in narrative technique, weapons grade snark, and vocabulary enhancement. The author's adult novels, disappointing.
Absolutely loved them. The number of nights bed time stories collapsed into helpless laughter. The number of times my children asked what does some unusual word mean, just before the hilarious explanation.
The film was good too. A pity they only made one.
I'm constantly seeing adverts for a series on it on Netflix, with Neil Patrick Harris. Not seen it though, don't know if anyone knows if its any good?
Once we've called their bluff over Ireland we can start talking seriously.
You think No Deal means this endless merry-go-round of stupid will be over? Oh honey, no.
The EU will be happy to talk once we've No Dealed. First order of business: a backstop.
There will be no need for a backstop as there will be no hard border in Ireland. That is why this is a ludicrous and obvious bluff.
Do you mean there will be no customs checks or enforcement, like between France and Belgium, or there will be passport checks, like between Switzerland and France?
I mean there will be no checks.
Ireland has no intention to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario. The UK has no intention to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario. The EU has no ability to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario.
If a no deal scenario actually happens and the border remains open then it is the EU, not the UK or Ireland, with the biggest headache as far as Ireland is concerned. We and Ireland will be having our cake and eating it by not enforcing the border. That is why the EU is desperate to tie down the ludicrous backstop now.
If the bluff gets called then there's no need to deal with the border issue as its already not getting dealt with. Instead there's a need to fix the fact they have a gaping hole in their Single Market to a non-member. Which is best dealt with by a deal we can and will ratify - which means no backstop.
Only way a backstop remains after no deal is if the border gets enforced (won't happen) or we suffer so much we go back on bended knees desperate for anything (won't happen either).
You misunderstand the situation. I haven't the strength to explain it on here (again).
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
TBH, I don't even really know who the Tories are now. Are they still the party of Cameron / Osborne, are they the party of f##k business Boris or JRM and the No-Dealers. And May seems to have little vision of what she wants to achieve (other than Brexit).
I genuinely don't really know.
I guess at least know what I get if I vote Labour, and it isn't the days of Blair, backed up by Balls / Cooper / Miliband etc.
And the Lib Dems might as well just give their seats to that bloke, Mr Stop Brexit.
Would you vote for a 'new centrist party' if there was a serious offering that had the potential to win over voting for Tories and Labour at the next election?
Anyone with a chance of seeing off both Tory and Labour is worth a look, surely.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
I've criticised progress on here and argued with say Rochdale Pioneers but I don't think I've ever actually called him a Tory. I haven't with Southam (pretty sure) and he actually isn't Labour (he was)
I’m sorry but that is your problem in a nutshell. You have to see SO as Labour because he is - even if he doesn’t support Corbyn
He said on here in a post previously that he left Labour, what I said was a specific reference to membership, as the thing I was replying to said 'signed up members'
I thought that was a reference to the infiltration y Corbyn supporting Tories. My point still stands - both the Labour Party and Conservative parties are broad churches of opinion and that has served our country well in terms of stability. If Corbyn drags labour off leftwards he is going to leave centrist voters like myself with little reason not to vote for others. Personally I have voted for all the major parties at various elections over the years and I would welcome a centrist party, if members could get over their historic ties
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
It needs a European Council meeting first. One is not scheduled until the 21st March. Now, Donald Tusk does have the general authority to schedule extraordinary meetings of the council, but it turns out the diaries of 27 national leaders tends to get quite busy and Tusk would need a DAMN GOOD reason to drag the leaders of Europe back to Brussels and put "listen to more of May's robotic pleading for why it's their job to save the UK from itself" on the agenda.
EUCO has had extraordinary meetings held by phone before (and did at almost zero notice during the Greek crisis). Not only that, but in the event that - say - Emmanuel Macron was otherwise engaged, then he would delegate to someone else
The idea that the EU would be unable to schedule a 15 minute phone call, and therefore an extension is palpably absurd.
I often find that if I fail to submit work a week before the deadline and just assume that an extension will be granted, then everything works out fine.
Wait a minute.
No. No it doesn't work out fine. It works out quite badly. My mistake, apols...
It does look as if the EU are standing firm until after the 14th Feb debate and votes in the HOC
I can see the logic in that and in the meantime we can all look, in despair, at the nonsense that is the 'Malthouse' plan.
I expect TM will wait until after mid Feb before entering talks in the EU following which she will no doubt re-submit the plan, adjusted or otherwise, and see how many ERG blink and how many labour mps vote for it.
TM is going to need an extension to A50 at least for 3 months and I expect that request to be made sometime in March
I expect the deal will go through by the end of June, just before the EU re-convene in July
Big_,G, if May is seriously planning an extension then March is really far too late. It's less than a month before the deadline, orders will have gone out and it raises the risk that at least one of the 27 won't react in time. This isn't a science fiction movie where you can stop the countdown at one, it's real life.
I don't think that's true. Agreeing to an extension doesn't require primary legislation by any of the 27, it requires a meeting where no-one vetoes it.
Fair enough. Consider the sentence modified to "at least one of the 27 will veto it"
EUCO comes to unanimous decisions all the time. Why should this be any different?
If - say - the Danish Prime Minister stuck up his hand, and said "I'd like to veto this extension", then he would come under enormous pressure from other leaders. Unless there was a really compelling domestic reason to veto the extension (and I'm struggling to think of any countries where that might be the case), then people get in line.
You're eliding "can" with "will". As I said above, leaving it until eight days before a deadline then asking 27 heads of government "can we please have an extension please" is not sane. Additionally it's so massively unprofessional as to call into question the ability of the Conservative Party to govern anything bigger than a skateboard. There has to be a point at which even the Toriest Tory should feel ashamed.
If you vote Tory, support their policies and plan to vote Tory again I don't think it is out of order to call you a Tory, I did say I didn't mean in terms of membership.
Who says I support their policies*? I think you will be hard pressed to find many positive comments I have made about Kim Jong May. And who says I intend to vote Tory again?
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
You have to remember that to Corbynites even many of their own signed up members are Tories.
I've criticised progress on here and argued with say Rochdale Pioneers but I don't think I've ever actually called him a Tory. I haven't with Southam (pretty sure) and he actually isn't Labour (he was)
I’m sorry but that is your problem in a nutshell. You have to see SO as Labour because he is - even if he doesn’t support Corbyn
SO doesnt vote Labour and didnt in 2017 when Leamington Spa was a Labour gain despite him being convinced there was no chance of that
Comments
*it says on the listings
If - say - the Danish Prime Minister stuck up his hand, and said "I'd like to veto this extension", then he would come under enormous pressure from other leaders. Unless there was a really compelling domestic reason to veto the extension (and I'm struggling to think of any countries where that might be the case), then people get in line.
He means nothing for nothing.
Not that it matters, he looks like neither of them!
My view is that if Mrs May needs an extension up to the European Parliament elections, that will be granted without much difficulty. If she wanted one that went beyond there, well that's a very different story.
When the Council pointedly amended the draft decision in December, to remove May's fluff text about the backstop, it was taken as being a deliberate and public slapdown for May, precisely because it was so unusual.
If it is only half as bad as the worst fears it could result in a situation where, after the next election the Tories will look back on 1997 as 'Not Too Bad'! Their mismanagement will also mean that they will be responsible for the first Hard Left Government this country has ever had.
Don't forget, the EU may have done some No Deal planning (or at least rather more than the UK), but only one of the 27 has passed primary legislation regarding the rights of British citizens in a No Deal scenario. None of them - as far as I know - have done anything regarding withholding taxes or double taxation.
All of the EU27 depend on the UK as an export market or a conduit in one way or another. While the desire to "win" the negotiations is strong, so is the desire not to tip economies back into recession.
A couple of weeks about Warsi happy to be involved with an event with a terrorist organization, this week...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/04/tory-mps-back-rightwing-youth-group-turning-point-uk
Either the ERG break, May changes things to work with Labour or she cancels Brexit.
I can see good reasons why none of those will happen, so no deal it is.
I don't think there will be an extension just so Tory MPs can fart about chasing unicorns.
Whilst the UK fannies arround with riding unicorns around Parliament Square, the EU is battening down the hatches, bracing the mainsail and preparing to sail headlong into a No Deal Brexit.
https://twitter.com/MartinSelmayr/status/1092409534029746178
It is because technological solutions are only able to work if both parties want it to work.
If one party wants technological solutions not to work, then they won't work.
Once we've called their bluff over Ireland we can start talking seriously.
What we've done in the past week:
1) set up a working group consisting of Tory brexiteers and one remainer who's beginning to suspect she's been made a patsty.
2) That's it
Firstly, the ERG fear that the EU is not sincere in its desire to find a technological solution. They believe that the backstop is designed to remove Northern Ireland from the UK, and reunite Ireland.
Secondly, some (but only some) members do not want the UK to have a close relationship with the EU. They believe a clean break is the only way to achieve Global Britain.
My view is that if the EU were not to act in good faith over finding a technological solution, and I would be very happy with an independent international panel adjudging this, then the UK would be well within its rights to announce that it was leaving the UK-EU treaty. A treaty requires that both sides stick to their obligations, and the EU is obligated to help find a solution.
I suspect some form of words outside of the actual Withdrawal Agreement could be reached that would satisfy many people with regards to the backstop.
However, the second group - who are perhaps a dozen or two in number - will never be satisfied. There will always be a reason why the deal is not acceptable. Because of these holdouts, Mrs May will require some Labour or other votes to pass the WA.
The EU will be happy to talk once we've No Dealed. First order of business: a backstop.
Malthouse was on Politics Live earlier, and despite trying to talk across everyone else couldn't really explain how his 'compromise' was going to solve everything. He also seemed strangely reluctant to have his name attached to it.
Neither the UK nor the EU want the backstop. It is an insurance policy which would be rendered irrelevant after a FTA has been concluded. For the EU the backstop and a customs arrangement is "cherry picking".
More likely the (more sensible [are there any?] members of the) ERG realise that for all their idiotic bravado over easiest trade deal in history an actual trade deal with the EU will take several years and therefore the backstop as it stands will almost certainly be invoked. They realise that the WA as written is such that the two year period is hopelessly inadequate.
This is another Leave lie peddled in the hope it dupes the public .
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/428307-poll-biden-leads-dems-in-iowa-by-11-points
For the others, they want to get us beyond the point of no return before people wake up to the whole thing being a fraud.
You are making a hell of a lot of presumptions given I made a protest vote at the last GE.
* TBH, I don't even know if they have any policies other than Brexit means Brexit.
He used to post regularly on here in those days. He led a lot of punters over a cliff. Then when the case against Blair collapsed, he disappeared. Haven't noticed him posting here since.
The commitment to EU principles can be every bit as irrational as British nationalism.
I genuinely don't really know.
I guess at least know what I get if I vote Labour, and it isn't the days of Blair, backed up by Balls / Cooper / Miliband etc.
And the Lib Dems might as well just give their seats to that bloke, Mr Stop Brexit.
The film was good too. A pity they only made one.
Ireland has no intention to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario.
The UK has no intention to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario.
The EU has no ability to enforce the border even in a no deal scenario.
If a no deal scenario actually happens and the border remains open then it is the EU, not the UK or Ireland, with the biggest headache as far as Ireland is concerned. We and Ireland will be having our cake and eating it by not enforcing the border. That is why the EU is desperate to tie down the ludicrous backstop now.
If the bluff gets called then there's no need to deal with the border issue as its already not getting dealt with. Instead there's a need to fix the fact they have a gaping hole in their Single Market to a non-member. Which is best dealt with by a deal we can and will ratify - which means no backstop.
Only way a backstop remains after no deal is if the border gets enforced (won't happen) or we suffer so much we go back on bended knees desperate for anything (won't happen either).
Wait a minute.
No. No it doesn't work out fine. It works out quite badly. My mistake, apols...
His children do vote Labour.