Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
37% of Remainers would mind a lot/little if a close relative married a Leaver vs 9% for the obverse
That seems pretty judgemental to me.
But perhaps you can explain how I am misunderstanding the data?
Yes, a very silly poll. The reality is that xenophobia and an irrational fear of immigrants is what motivated many to vote leave. Your suggestion that Leave voters, followers of a warped philosophy founded on prejudice against foreigners are less judgemental is laughable in the extreme. Anyway, better do some work and leave you retired folk to argue how being Leave and not being judgemental are compatible. One of the funniest and most stupid things I have ever seen on here!!
No, that’s the reality you want to project onto Leavers because it makes it much easier for you to deal with as an argument, and allows free form for your prejudices.
Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
Leavers are just happy to see people die or lose their jobs in order to secure Brexit.
Remainers are just happy to see people die in order to secure Remain.
There are unsavoury elements on both sides of this debate.
Not happy to see people die you moron. That is typical gammon faced deliberate misunderstanding of facts, or possibly downright stupidity. What many of us have said is that when the late middle aged and elderly that still hold prejudiced views (I am part of this age demographic) die out the younger less prejudiced will probably vote us back in. That does not mean anyone is "happy to see people die". Psychopathy is the preserve of your religion mate.
That’s a corker, so richly demonstrative of your lack of self-awareness and full of irony you could ditch the dictionary for good and cite this instead.
Do you deny that many Remainers have been sharing and applauding the deathorendum monitor, arguing the scales have already tipped because many of the 2016 Leave voters have now died of old age?
I don’t know about “applauding”. Making a psephological point, maybe.
Honestly though, do you really believe the point you are making?
What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.
Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?
It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.
In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
Why are we calling Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al the "moderate wing" ?
They are as entrenched and inflexible in their rebellion as any of the ERG. There's many names that each faction can be given, but it should be accepted that they are all hardliners, remainers and leavers
Because on the broad left to right spread of the HoC, they are near the middle.
It's not difficult.
They are on the far left edge of the spectrum of Remain - Leave.
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.
Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.
what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
No.
But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Not just manufacturing but whole swathes of the economy, retail is currently going through the process now and IT will be next. And then of course theres growth in salaries, regional differences accentuating etc.
Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
I have posted many times on how the current consensus has failed (and usually poo-poohed by the PB Tories for my troubles), but the answer is not to bring the temple crashing down.
the temple is not crashing down, its why the alarmist armageddon which I frequently call out is corrosive to the debate. The country will continue, politics will change. We are simply going through the transition from one set of principles to another.
Do you deny that many Remainers have been sharing and applauding the deathorendum monitor, arguing the scales have already tipped because many of the 2016 Leave voters have now died of old age?
I don’t know about “applauding”. Making a psephological point, maybe.
Honestly though, do you really believe the point you are making?
Honestly?
It’s not me you need to ask. I’m citing what some of your fellow travellers have been saying.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.
Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.
what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
No.
But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Not just manufacturing but whole swathes of the economy, retail is currently going through the process now and IT will be next. And then of course theres growth in salaries, regional differences accentuating etc.
Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
I have posted many times on how the current consensus has failed (and usually poo-poohed by the PB Tories for my troubles), but the answer is not to bring the temple crashing down.
the temple is not crashing down, its why the alarmist armageddon which I frequently call out is corrosive to the debate. The country will continue, politics will change. We are simply going through the transition from one set of principles to another.
Yes. And if we hard brexit, we will experience a nasty shock, job losses, bankruptcies, and all the related miseries.
But sure, let’s call it a “transition”. Sounds less nasty and bigoted.
Do you deny that many Remainers have been sharing and applauding the deathorendum monitor, arguing the scales have already tipped because many of the 2016 Leave voters have now died of old age?
I don’t know about “applauding”. Making a psephological point, maybe.
Honestly though, do you really believe the point you are making?
Honestly?
It’s not me you need to ask. I’m citing what some of your fellow travellers have been saying.
No you’re not.
Because you have signed up to a millennial cult, your own cognitive dissonance means you have to ascribe what are literally murderous motives to your opponents.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.
Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.
what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
No.
But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Yes, saying he is against the establishment, but admires a bunch of old Etonians doesn't exactly make him look the brightest ticket in the book. Then again, he is a supporter of Brexit
Obviously the right to vote should be limited to those only with high IQ. In your world .
Our Nigel voted for Cameron knowing the referendum was big part of that GE.
I also must mention nigel voted for Hague and howard,if you remember those two GE campaigns were our membership of the EU and immigration.
The poor guy must be stacked with guilt for his past voting record.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
Do you deny that many Remainers have been sharing and applauding the deathorendum monitor, arguing the scales have already tipped because many of the 2016 Leave voters have now died of old age?
I don’t know about “applauding”. Making a psephological point, maybe.
Honestly though, do you really believe the point you are making?
Honestly?
It’s not me you need to ask. I’m citing what some of your fellow travellers have been saying.
No you’re not.
Because you have signed up to a millennial cult, your own cognitive dissonance means you have to ascribe what are literally murderous motives to your opponents.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.
Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.
what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
No.
But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Not just manufacturing but whole swathes of the economy, retail is currently going through the process now and IT will be next. And then of course theres growth in salaries, regional differences accentuating etc.
Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
I have posted many times on how the current consensus has failed (and usually poo-poohed by the PB Tories for my troubles), but the answer is not to bring the temple crashing down.
the temple is not crashing down, its why the alar to another.
Yes. And if we hard brexit, we will experience a nasty shock, job losses, bankruptcies, and all the related miseries.
But sure, let’s call it a “transition”. Sounds less nasty and bigoted.
What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.
Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?
It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.
In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
Why are we calling Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al the "moderate wing" ?
They are as entrenched and inflexible in their rebellion as any of the ERG. There's many names that each faction can be given, but it should be accepted that they are all hardliners, remainers and leavers
Because of the way politics is traditionally viewed. Advocating sudden and radical change is intrinsically more extreme than defending the status quo (irrespective of which turns out for the better). And its a simple fact that Grieve et al have allies across what is normally viewed as the centre ground of British politics into almost every other political party, whereas the Tory no dealers have traditionally been seen as extreme even within Conservative politics, and have few allies beyond (and those they do have mostly also extreme, for example on the further left).
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
Wake me up inside Wake me up inside Call my name and save me from the dark Bid my blood to run Before I come undone Save me from the nothing I've become
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
TGOHF praising Corbyn - the End of Days approacheth...
Ironically on Brexit, he’s probably closest to the largest number of people. During the referendum campaign, when he came back from holiday and actually did an interview, to paraphrase his response to what he thinks of the Eu “it’s a bit sh*t, but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages”. The absolute leavers and remainers on each side were a minority, with many more fitting on either side of this position both leave and remain.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
TGOHF praising Corbyn - the End of Days approacheth...
Ironically on Brexit, he’s probably closest to the largest number of people. During the referendum campaign, when he came back from holiday and actually did an interview, to paraphrase his response to what he thinks of the Eu “it’s a bit sh*t, but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages”. The absolute leavers and remainers on each side were a minority, with many more fitting on either side of this position both leave and remain.
Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.
The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.
That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
Unfortunately the current immigration system discriminated against his wife in favour of unskilled EU citizens.
So he can’t
I suggest he directs his ire at the person who brought in the current system for non-EU spusoes, one T May.
It's certainly not impossible to import a non-EU spouse - I did it. You do have to be persistent and lawyered up. The Home Office don't give a fuck,
And should it really be the case that only those who can afford access to a lawyer can live with their spouse in the UK? Remember, one person in the couple is a British citizen.
Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
37% of Remainers would mind a lot/little if a close relative married a Leaver vs 9% for the obverse
That seems pretty judgemental to me.
But perhaps you can explain how I am misunderstanding the data?
Ignoring the rather silly "mind your relative marrying" in the vast majority of cases being a Leaver tells you much more about the person's psyche than being a Remainer. So there's nothing unreasonable drawing more conclusions from the vote than whether or not decisions would be better made nearer to home.
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
TGOHF praising Corbyn - the End of Days approacheth...
Ironically on Brexit, he’s probably closest to the largest number of people. During the referendum campaign, when he came back from holiday and actually did an interview, to paraphrase his response to what he thinks of the Eu “it’s a bit sh*t, but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages”. The absolute leavers and remainers on each side were a minority, with many more fitting on either side of this position both leave and remain.
Just think if he didn’t have such terrible judgement, a history of sucking up to terrrorists, anti semitic sympathisers and wasn’t worshipped as a cult leader by the 21st century social media equivalent of the Blackshirts, he might be surging ahead against a government that is utterly paralysed.
'Little Matt' Hancock fails the most important test of all for next Tory leader - my 'can I picture it?' one. Could be a good trading bet though. If he is suitably crazed with personal ambition he will run and can be laid back at a much shorter price.
Very struck by the poll down the thread which says that 37% of Remainers would refuse to attend the ceremony and then cut off all contact if their son or daughter married a Leaver, whereas just 9% of Leavers would do the same if it were the other way around.
This feels right to me. Nor is it a trivial matter. It speaks to the genuine feelings of superiority amongst Remainers. It is an education and class thing, not a matter of political difference. If your child is planning to get hitched to a Leaver, that is 'marrying down', and as such is to be strongly discouraged. It is reprehensible, of course it is, but it is perfectly understandable.
If we are going to have random song lyrics posted here, then I nominate:
It was a time of the preacher When the story began Of the choice of a lady And the love of a man How he loved her so dearly He went out of his mind When she left him for someone That she'd left behind And he cried like a baby And he screamed like a panther In the middle of the night And he saddled his pony And he went for a ride It was a time of the preacher In the year of O-one Now the preachin' is over And the lesson's begun
Willie Nelson
Of course used more than incidentally by the Brilliant TV serial, "Edge of Darkness"... seems kind of appropriate as British Politics becomes a choice between some kind of extremist death cults rather than a forum of ideas.
I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.
Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.
what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
No.
But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Not accentuating etc.
Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
I have posted many times on how the current consensus has failed (and usually poo-poohed by the PB Tories for my troubles), but the answer is not to bring the temple crashing down.
the temple is not crashing down, its why the alarmist armageddon which I frequently call out is corrosive to the debate. The country will continue, politics will change. We are simply going through the transition from one set of principles to another.
Yes. And if we hard brexit, we will experience a nasty shock, job losses, bankruptcies, and all the related miseries.
But sure, let’s call it a “transition”. Sounds less nasty and bigoted.
To be fair, there are a lot of people a hard or no deal Brexit will have little impact on - the well-off and those with guaranteed incomes are obvious starting points.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Not accentuating etc.
Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
I have posted many times on how the current consensus has failed (and usually poo-poohed by the PB Tories for my troubles), but the answer is not to bring the temple crashing down.
the temple is not crashing down, its why the alarmist armageddon which I frequently call out is corrosive to the debate. The country will continue, politics will change. We are simply going through the transition from one set of principles to another.
Yes. And if we hard brexit, we will experience a nasty shock, job losses, bankruptcies, and all the related miseries.
But sure, let’s call it a “transition”. Sounds less nasty and bigoted.
To be fair, there are a lot of people a hard or no deal Brexit will have little impact on - the well-off and those with guaranteed incomes are obvious starting points.
Thank goodness most Tory MPs don't fall into that category.
Well, not the part about guaranteed incomes, anyway.
And should it really be the case that only those who can afford access to a lawyer can live with their spouse in the UK? Remember, one person in the couple is a British citizen.
Unfortunately your government is run by deeply evil people, working on behalf of voters who hate freedom.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Not accentuating etc.
Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
I have posted many times on how the current consensus has failed (and usually poo-poohed by the PB Tories for my troubles), but the answer is not to bring the temple crashing down.
the temple is not crashing down, its why the alarmist armageddon which I frequently call out is corrosive to the debate. The country will continue, politics will change. We are simply going through the transition from one set of principles to another.
Yes. And if we hard brexit, we will experience a nasty shock, job losses, bankruptcies, and all the related miseries.
But sure, let’s call it a “transition”. Sounds less nasty and bigoted.
To be fair, there are a lot of people a hard or no deal Brexit will have little impact on - the well-off and those with guaranteed incomes are obvious starting points.
Thank goodness most Tory MPs don't fall into that category.
Well, not the part about guaranteed incomes, anyway.
Don't they get a nice pension if they lose their seats?
I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.
Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.
what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
No.
But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?
Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
Now youre just off one handed posting again.
I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.
Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.
It’s simple nihilism.
Yes, saying he is against the establishment, but admires a bunch of old Etonians doesn't exactly make him look the brightest ticket in the book. Then again, he is a supporter of Brexit
Obviously the right to vote should be limited to those only with high IQ. In your world .
Our Nigel voted for Cameron knowing the referendum was big part of that GE.
I also must mention nigel voted for Hague and howard,if you remember those two GE campaigns were our membership of the EU and immigration.
The poor guy must be stacked with guilt for his past voting record.
On this thread, and last nights, the despair is not abating as each faction keeps fighting for its own interpretation of Brexit, or not, and it is not a pretty sight
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Over the last few day’s noises from JRM have indicated that if Brexit comes under threat the deal comes back into play, as even TM’s deal is better than no Brexit. TM seems to have concluded that the opposition parties want one or more of removing no deal from negotiations, a customs union, or a referendum, none of which are acceptable. She has therefore taken the only option open to her and will attempt to further clarify the backstop with the EU, as the ERG and the DUP have the 110 votes needed to get her over the line. Of course it would be naive not to accept that she is putting her party’s interest first.
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
'Little Matt' Hancock fails the most important test of all for next Tory leader - my 'can I picture it?' one. Could be a good trading bet though. If he is suitably crazed with personal ambition he will run and can be laid back at a much shorter price.
Very struck by the poll down the thread which says that 37% of Remainers would refuse to attend the ceremony and then cut off all contact if their son or daughter married a Leaver, whereas just 9% of Leavers would do the same if it were the other way around.
This feels right to me. Nor is it a trivial matter. It speaks to the genuine feelings of superiority amongst Remainers. It is an education and class thing, not a matter of political difference. If your child is planning to get hitched to a Leaver, that is 'marrying down', and as such is to be strongly discouraged. It is reprehensible, of course it is, but it is perfectly understandable.
If you fancy a laugh and want to see the people republic of Remainia in full effect drop into the comments on the Guardian.
A bastion of prejudice against anyone who had the temerity of coming to the conclusion that the EU didn’t seem to benefit them. John Harris’ piece today about Tim Martin and Wetherspoons has made the comments on here look positively enlightened.
I know people like Alastair M have made the case on here for dialogue and bringing people around but I cannot see this 37% of people being convinced. There are only another 11% to work on.
On this thread, and last nights, the despair is not abating as each faction keeps fighting for its own interpretation of Brexit, or not, and it is not a pretty sight
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Over the last few day’s noises from JRM have indicated that if Brexit comes under threat the deal comes back into play, as even TM’s deal is better than no Brexit. TM seems to have concluded that the opposition parties want one or more of removing no deal from negotiations, a customs union, or a referendum, none of which are acceptable. She has therefore taken the only option open to her and will attempt to further clarify the backstop with the EU, as the ERG and the DUP have the 110 votes needed to get her over the line. Of course it would be naive not to accept that she is putting her party’s interest first.
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
Sir, you are a good man who wants the best for his family and his country, but I'm afraid that the Conservative and Unionist party that you are a member of now exists in name only. It is to all intents and purposes an anti-business, inward-looking, provincial English nationalist party now. Those are its values, that is what it stands for. Mrs May and all the contenders to succeed her get that, which is why we are where we are. The tragedy is that as the Tories change, there is no viable and electable alternative to them. And that means that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they stand a chance of getting better.
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
That's the point isn't it? TM sends one of her winged monkeys to leak her GFA idea to the press and gauge reaction without overtly articulating it. As it happens it's gone down horribly so she moves on (or more likely back) to another terrible idea.
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Over the last few day’s noises from JRM have indicated that if Brexit comes under threat the deal comes back into play, as even TM’s deal is better than no Brexit. TM seems to have concluded that the opposition parties want one or more of removing no deal from negotiations, a customs union, or a referendum, none of which are acceptable. She has therefore taken the only option open to her and will attempt to further clarify the backstop with the EU, as the ERG and the DUP have the 110 votes needed to get her over the line. Of course it would be naive not to accept that she is putting her party’s interest first.
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
Sir, you are a good man who wants the best for his family and his country, but I'm afraid that the Conservative and Unionist party that you are a member of now exists in name only. It is to all intents and purposes an anti-business, inward-looking, provincial English nationalist party now. Those are its values, that is what it stands for. Mrs May and all the contenders to succeed her get that, which is why we are where we are. The tragedy is that as the Tories change, there is no viable and electable alternative to them. And that means that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they stand a chance of getting better.
Thank you and I do agree. I am sure many members and voters for both main parties quietly weep.
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
That's the point isn't it? TM sends one of her winged monkeys to leak her GFA idea to the press and gauge reaction without overtly articulating it. As it happens it's gone down horribly so she moves on (or more likely back) to another terrible idea.
It is pathetic isn't it. May claims to be reaching out to other parties. They all tell her that she needs to rule out No Deal. She refuses, and says it is everyone else's fault that the cross-party approach has failed.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
It is pathetic isn't it. May claims to be reaching out to other parties. They all tell her that she needs to rule out No Deal. She refuses, and says it is everyone else's fault that the cross-party approach has failed.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
The mess you quote is each and every mps responsibility. 498 voted for A50, and each and every one of them is especially responsible.
TM has been given a poisoned chalice and I cannot see anyone who would be any better at sorting this intractable problem
It is pathetic isn't it. May claims to be reaching out to other parties. They all tell her that she needs to rule out No Deal. She refuses, and says it is everyone else's fault that the cross-party approach has failed.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
I'm thinking another problem is that if she does eventually stand aside, her behaviour so far has made it much less likely that the EU will give her successor more time to try to sort things out.
I would just like to burnish my inclusive and humanitarian credentials by pointing out that I just sold a car to someone I strongly suspect was a leaver. He even got a handshake and a curt nod.
One positive is that if there's a food shortage it should help to sort out the obesity crisis.
With global trade being more difficult think of the benefits to the carbon footprint and to local supply of food etc. Plus we are no longer a motorway for Irish lorries travelling to the EU - pollution chopped immediately.
It's like a Green manifesto - can't believe Ms Lucas isn't a supporter..
On this thread, and last nights, the despair is not abating as each faction keeps fighting for its own interpretation of Brexit, or not, and it is not a pretty sight
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Over the last few day’s noises from JRM have indicated that if Brexit comes under threat the deal comes back into play, as even TM’s deal is better than no Brexit. TM seems to have concluded that the opposition parties want one or more of removing no deal from negotiations, a customs union, or a referendum, none of which are acceptable. She has therefore taken the only option open to her and will attempt to further clarify the backstop with the EU, as the ERG and the DUP have the 110 votes needed to get her over the line. Of course it would be naive not to accept that she is putting her party’s interest first.
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
Sir, you are a good man who wants the best for his family and his country, but I'm afraid that the Conservative and Unionist party that you are a member of now exists in name only. It is to all intents and purposes an anti-business, inward-looking, provincial English nationalist party now. Those are its values, that is what it stands for. Mrs May and all the contenders to succeed her get that, which is why we are where we are. The tragedy is that as the Tories change, there is no viable and electable alternative to them. And that means that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they stand a chance of getting better.
Spot on. No patriot can support the “Conservative” and “Unionist” Party.
Mr. Walker, given a choice between a mediocre Conservative Party and a Labour Party occupied by the far left, I'll be voting blue.
Of course, if Corbyn got tossed overboard and a vaguely normal human (say, Cooper) became Labour leader whilst May remained Conservative leader, unlikely as that might sound, I'd be inclined to go the other way. May's a dreadful leader. Corbyn is worse.
One positive is that if there's a food shortage it should help to sort out the obesity crisis.
With global trade being more difficult think of the benefits to the carbon footprint and to local supply of food etc. Plus we are no longer a motorway for Irish lorries travelling to the EU - pollution chopped immediately.
It's like a Green manifesto - can't believe Ms Lucas isn't a supporter..
The Greens used to be of course
No way of making the UK self-sufficient under the common external tariff...
I would just like to burnish my inclusive and humanitarian credentials by pointing out that I just sold a car to someone I strongly suspect was a leaver. He even got a handshake and a curt nod.
One positive is that if there's a food shortage it should help to sort out the obesity crisis.
With global trade being more difficult think of the benefits to the carbon footprint and to local supply of food etc. Plus we are no longer a motorway for Irish lorries travelling to the EU - pollution chopped immediately.
It's like a Green manifesto - can't believe Ms Lucas isn't a supporter..
Not long ago the Green Party used to have quite a big pro-Brexit contingent for just that reason: The EU is designed to create free trade across borders, and we shouldn't be encouraging that, because it's better to source stuff locally, rather than from some distant foreign country.
However nowadays I think Brexit is much more of a tribal identity kind of issue, and the "are you gammon or not" question swamps the various fringe theories about other issues.
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Over the last few day’s noises from JRM have indicated that if Brexit comes under threat the deal comes back into play, as even TM’s deal is better than no Brexit. TM seems to have concluded that the opposition parties want one or more of removing no deal from negotiations, a customs union, or a referendum, none of which are acceptable. She has therefore taken the only option open to her and will attempt to further clarify the backstop with the EU, as the ERG and the DUP have the 110 votes needed to get her over the line. Of course it would be naive not to accept that she is putting her party’s interest first.
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
Sir, you are a good man who wants the best for his family and his country, but I'm afraid that the Conservative and Unionist party that you are a member of now exists in name only. It is to all intents and purposes an anti-business, inward-looking, provincial English nationalist party now. Those are its values, that is what it stands for. Mrs May and all the contenders to succeed her get that, which is why we are where we are. The tragedy is that as the Tories change, there is no viable and electable alternative to them. And that means that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they stand a chance of getting better.
Spot on. No patriot can support the “Conservative” and “Unionist” Party.
It depends on the choice and in no circumstances whatsoever could I vote for Corbyn
If you fancy a laugh and want to see the people republic of Remainia in full effect drop into the comments on the Guardian.
A bastion of prejudice against anyone who had the temerity of coming to the conclusion that the EU didn’t seem to benefit them. John Harris’ piece today about Tim Martin and Wetherspoons has made the comments on here look positively enlightened.
I know people like Alastair M have made the case on here for dialogue and bringing people around but I cannot see this 37% of people being convinced. There are only another 11% to work on.
The key question for me is - is this a domestic civil war or is it a negotiation with the EU?
If it's a negotiation the best next steps are not difficult to discern. Split the WA and the PD. Ratify the WA and leave. Hold a GE, winner takes the trade talks, ultimate outcome being a soft Brexit under the Cons or a very soft Brexit under Labour.
But if it's a war, forget all that. Mushy compromise will not do. We must remain in the EU or leave it good and proper. One side must win, otherwise the fight goes on.
Now on the internet, it is undoubtedly a war. Ditto down at College Green and, by the sounds of it, at Weatherspoons.
But away from all of that? I think for most people it is still a negotiation. In which case leaving with a deal is best - and IMO, for all the current noise, inevitable.
One positive is that if there's a food shortage it should help to sort out the obesity crisis.
With global trade being more difficult think of the benefits to the carbon footprint and to local supply of food etc. Plus we are no longer a motorway for Irish lorries travelling to the EU - pollution chopped immediately.
It's like a Green manifesto - can't believe Ms Lucas isn't a supporter..
Not long ago the Green Party used to have quite a big pro-Brexit contingent for just that reason: The EU is designed to create free trade across borders, and we shouldn't be encouraging that, because it's better to source stuff locally, rather than from some distant foreign country.
However nowadays I think Brexit is much more of a tribal identity kind of issue, and the "are you gammon or not" question swamps the various fringe theories about other issues.
Is it so different with Corbyn and his close allies?
They appear to envision a pure socialist country free from the constraints that a nasty capitalistic EU might impose upon them.
If you fancy a laugh and want to see the people republic of Remainia in full effect drop into the comments on the Guardian.
A bastion of prejudice against anyone who had the temerity of coming to the conclusion that the EU didn’t seem to benefit them. John Harris’ piece today about Tim Martin and Wetherspoons has made the comments on here look positively enlightened.
I know people like Alastair M have made the case on here for dialogue and bringing people around but I cannot see this 37% of people being convinced. There are only another 11% to work on.
The key question for me is - is this a domestic civil war or is it a negotiation with the EU?
If it's a negotiation the best next steps are not difficult to discern. Split the WA and the PD. Ratify the WA and leave. Hold a GE, winner takes the trade talks, ultimate outcome being a soft Brexit under the Cons or a very soft Brexit under Labour.
But if it's a war, forget all that. Mushy compromise will not do. We must remain in the EU or leave it good and proper. One side must win, otherwise the fight goes on.
Now on the internet, it is undoubtedly a war. Ditto down at College Green and, by the sounds of it, at Weatherspoons.
But away from all of that? I think for most people it is still a negotiation. In which case leaving with a deal is best - and IMO, for all the current noise, inevitable.
I've supported leaving the EU for about 20 years. Twenty years ago, that was not exactly a fringe position, but certainly unusual,, even within the Conservative Party. My own views on the EU haven't changed much over that time, but what's curious is finding myself now outflanked by loads of people who were once much closer to the centre than I was.
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Over the last few day’s noises from JRM have indicated that if Brexit comes under threat the deal comes back into play, as even TM’s deal is better than no Brexit. TM seems to have concluded that the opposition parties want one or more of removing no deal from negotiations, a customs union, or a referendum, none of which are acceptable. She has therefore taken the only option open to her and will attempt to further clarify the backstop with the EU, as the ERG and the DUP have the 110 votes needed to get her over the line. Of course it would be naive not to accept that she is putting her party’s interest first.
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
Sir, you are a good man who wants the best for his family and his country, but I'm afraid that the Conservative and Unionist party that you are a member of now exists in name s no viable and electable alternative to them. And that means that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they stand a chance of getting better.
Spot on. No patriot can support the “Conservative” and “Unionist” Party.
It depends on the choice and in no circumstances whatsoever could I vote for Corbyn
Same for me, if he enables Brexit. The signs so far are not good.
Mr. Walker, given a choice between a mediocre Conservative Party and a Labour Party occupied by the far left, I'll be voting blue.
Of course, if Corbyn got tossed overboard and a vaguely normal human (say, Cooper) became Labour leader whilst May remained Conservative leader, unlikely as that might sound, I'd be inclined to go the other way. May's a dreadful leader. Corbyn is worse.
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
Sir, you are a good man who wants the best for his family and his country, but I'm afraid that the Conservative and Unionist party that you are a member of now exists in name only. It is to all intents and purposes an anti-business, inward-looking, provincial English nationalist party now. Those are its values, that is what it stands for. Mrs May and all the contenders to succeed her get that, which is why we are where we are. The tragedy is that as the Tories change, there is no viable and electable alternative to them. And that means that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they stand a chance of getting better.
Spot on. No patriot can support the “Conservative” and “Unionist” Party.
It depends on the choice and in no circumstances whatsoever could I vote for Corbyn
I am not voting Corbyn either. I refuse to vote for either May or Corbyn.
However, I can see myself voting for Labour post Corbyn, whereas the Tory party looks looks to be heading ever further away from electability.
Is it so different with Corbyn and his close allies?
They appear to envision a pure socialist country free from the constraints that a nasty capitalistic EU might impose upon them.
Perhaps they should ally with the ERG.
Yes, it's related, although the Green version is more about logistics, whereas the Corbyn part is more about political power.
Corbyn *is* allied with the ERG. He voted with them on Article 50, he voted with them on TMay's deal, and as far as we can tell he'll vote with them on any other deal, and on any attempts to stop the resulting no-deal Brexit.
One positive is that if there's a food shortage it should help to sort out the obesity crisis.
With global trade being more difficult think of the benefits to the carbon footprint and to local supply of food etc. Plus we are no longer a motorway for Irish lorries travelling to the EU - pollution chopped immediately.
It's like a Green manifesto - can't believe Ms Lucas isn't a supporter..
Not long ago the Green Party used to have quite a big pro-Brexit contingent for just that reason: The EU is designed to create free trade across borders, and we shouldn't be encouraging that, because it's better to source stuff locally, rather than from some distant foreign country.
However nowadays I think Brexit is much more of a tribal identity kind of issue, and the "are you gammon or not" question swamps the various fringe theories about other issues.
Is it so different with Corbyn and his close allies?
They appear to envision a pure socialist country free from the constraints that a nasty capitalistic EU might impose upon them.
Perhaps they should ally with the ERG.
Left and Right are allied in wanting Brexit. It is the normally mushy centre that has found its raison d'être to fight for the star-encrusted blue banner.
It is pathetic isn't it. May claims to be reaching out to other parties. They all tell her that she needs to rule out No Deal. She refuses, and says it is everyone else's fault that the cross-party approach has failed.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
So Corbyn asks for something that will tear apart the Tory Party and therefore probably the Government with no clear alternative. As a precondition to talking. There is no reaching out to Corbyn. The sensible Labour types are desperate to be seen talking.
I would just like to burnish my inclusive and humanitarian credentials by pointing out that I just sold a car to someone I strongly suspect was a leaver. He even got a handshake and a curt nod.
I would just like to burnish my inclusive and humanitarian credentials by pointing out that I just sold a car to someone I strongly suspect was a leaver. He even got a handshake and a curt nod.
OTOH, having read your own accounts of how you treat your motors....
But the picture is even worse than it seems. Several of the "potential appointees" are ministers who May has already sacked (e.g. Philip Dunne) or encouraged to resign (Patrick McLoughlin).
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
TGOHF praising Corbyn - the End of Days approacheth...
Ironically on Brexit, he’s probably closest to the largest number of people. During the referendum campaign, when he came back from holiday and actually did an interview, to paraphrase his response to what he thinks of the Eu “it’s a bit sh*t, but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages”. The absolute leavers and remainers on each side were a minority, with many more fitting on either side of this position both leave and remain.
That's right. The problem is that hard Remainers and hard Leavers demand total fanaticism, and as the issue grows in salience every day, more and more people are identifying with one trench or the other. So you get reasonable, balanced people like PtP saying that their future voting intention depends simply on what happens over Brexit.
From memory:
"The best are full of doubts The worst are full of passionate conviction..."
It is pathetic isn't it. May claims to be reaching out to other parties. They all tell her that she needs to rule out No Deal. She refuses, and says it is everyone else's fault that the cross-party approach has failed.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
So Corbyn asks for something that will tear apart the Tory Party and therefore probably the Government with no clear alternative. As a precondition to talking. There is no reaching out to Corbyn. The sensible Labour types are desperate to be seen talking.
May seems to have given up on Parliament after about two days.
But she is happy to entertain the wildest unicorn fantasies of her own backbench.
But the picture is even worse than it seems. Several of the "potential appointees" are ministers who May has already sacked (e.g. Philip Dunne) or encouraged to resign (Patrick McLoughlin).
Or would rather stick pins in their eyes than work for her (again or for the first time).
It is pathetic isn't it. May claims to be reaching out to other parties. They all tell her that she needs to rule out No Deal. She refuses, and says it is everyone else's fault that the cross-party approach has failed.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
So Corbyn asks for something that will tear apart the Tory Party and therefore probably the Government with no clear alternative. As a precondition to talking. There is no reaching out to Corbyn. The sensible Labour types are desperate to be seen talking.
That's why Cooper and Benn also stated that No Deal had to be ruled out then?
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
TGOHF praising Corbyn - the End of Days approacheth...
Ironically on Brexit, he’s probably closest to the largest number of people. During the referendum campaign, when he came back from holiday and actually did an interview, to paraphrase his response to what he thinks of the Eu “it’s a bit sh*t, but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages”. The absolute leavers and remainers on each side were a minority, with many more fitting on either side of this position both leave and remain.
That's right. The problem is that hard Remainers and hard Leavers demand total fanaticism, and as the issue grows in salience every day, more and more people are identifying with one trench or the other. So you get reasonable, balanced people like PtP saying that their future voting intention depends simply on what happens over Brexit.
From memory:
"The best are full of doubts The worst are full of passionate conviction..."
The best lack all conviction, While the worst/are full of passionate intensity
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
TGOHF praising Corbyn - the End of Days approacheth...
Ironically on Brexit, he’s probably closest to the largest number of people. During the referendum campaign, when he came back from holiday and actually did an interview, to paraphrase his response to what he thinks of the Eu “it’s a bit sh*t, but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages”. The absolute leavers and remainers on each side were a minority, with many more fitting on either side of this position both leave and remain.
That's right. The problem is that hard Remainers and hard Leavers demand total fanaticism, and as the issue grows in salience every day, more and more people are identifying with one trench or the other. So you get reasonable, balanced people like PtP saying that their future voting intention depends simply on what happens over Brexit.
From memory:
"The best are full of doubts The worst are full of passionate conviction..."
The problem is that while Corbyn does directly represent many peoples views on the EU his other views are such that a Labour Government is (to a lot of people) still less desirable than a Tory party almost in Civil War.
I suspect that with any other Labour leader we wouldn't be in the mess we are in...
It is pathetic isn't it. May claims to be reaching out to other parties. They all tell her that she needs to rule out No Deal. She refuses, and says it is everyone else's fault that the cross-party approach has failed.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
So Corbyn asks for something that will tear apart the Tory Party and therefore probably the Government with no clear alternative. As a precondition to talking. There is no reaching out to Corbyn. The sensible Labour types are desperate to be seen talking.
What Brexit 'settlement' wouldn't tear the Tory party apart?
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
TGOHF praising Corbyn - the End of Days approacheth...
Ironically on Brexit, he’s probably closest to the largest number of people. During the referendum campaign, when he came back from holiday and actually did an interview, to paraphrase his response to what he thinks of the Eu “it’s a bit sh*t, but the advantages probably outweigh the disadvantages”. The absolute leavers and remainers on each side were a minority, with many more fitting on either side of this position both leave and remain.
That's right. The problem is that hard Remainers and hard Leavers demand total fanaticism, and as the issue grows in salience every day, more and more people are identifying with one trench or the other. So you get reasonable, balanced people like PtP saying that their future voting intention depends simply on what happens over Brexit.
From memory:
"The best are full of doubts The worst are full of passionate conviction..."
What, pray, is a “Hard” Remainer? Please don’t stoop to the level of the unicorns-fanciers.
I've supported leaving the EU for about 20 years. Twenty years ago, that was not exactly a fringe position, but certainly unusual,, even within the Conservative Party. My own views on the EU haven't changed much over that time, but what's curious is finding myself now outflanked by loads of people who were once much closer to the centre than I was.
But how big an issue for you?
Like, morning of 24/6/16, which of these the closest:
(i) Quietly pleased. (ii) A deep and real sense of optimism and well being. (iii) Exultant! Over the moon!
But the picture is even worse than it seems. Several of the "potential appointees" are ministers who May has already sacked (e.g. Philip Dunne) or encouraged to resign (Patrick McLoughlin).
But the picture is even worse than it seems. Several of the "potential appointees" are ministers who May has already sacked (e.g. Philip Dunne) or encouraged to resign (Patrick McLoughlin).
Excellent, EC, but tragic. It certainly helps to explain the appointment of Gavin Williamson as Defence Secretary.
(And as for you, Dr Palmer, I'll have no more of your insults. 'Reasonable and balanced' indeed..... )
One positive is that if there's a food shortage it should help to sort out the obesity crisis.
With global trade being more difficult think of the benefits to the carbon footprint and to local supply of food etc. Plus we are no longer a motorway for Irish lorries travelling to the EU - pollution chopped immediately.
It's like a Green manifesto - can't believe Ms Lucas isn't a supporter..
Not long ago the Green Party used to have quite a big pro-Brexit contingent for just that reason: The EU is designed to create free trade across borders, and we shouldn't be encouraging that, because it's better to source stuff locally, rather than from some distant foreign country.
However nowadays I think Brexit is much more of a tribal identity kind of issue, and the "are you gammon or not" question swamps the various fringe theories about other issues.
Is it so different with Corbyn and his close allies?
They appear to envision a pure socialist country free from the constraints that a nasty capitalistic EU might impose upon them.
Perhaps they should ally with the ERG.
Greens who favour the sort of anti-free trade, crazy food miles, open borders, EU for big business etc, that you mention are still around (although some may have left for the Jezza Cult). Colin Hines for example, writes a lot about a form of green, new protectionism.
The party has grown a lot in last say decade or so and so perhaps these views are now outweighed by others.
A Tory split of a kind seems inevitable. However, I don’t expect any/many of the sane wing of the Tory party to survive in the event of a new Centre party being formed.
Centre-right-ism - although allegedly the national creed, wouldn’t get enough votes outside the more prosperous parts of London and the more liberal Home Counties (Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Surrey).
The Lords might be more interesting, and whether the Scottish Tories separate themselves formally from the national party.
Dan Hodges thinks we are heading to a GE, if the A50 is blocked.
What does a GE solve - doesn't ferment any new ideas does it. Shiny new govt and MPs and same old problem - that it is very expensive to leave the mafia.
But the picture is even worse than it seems. Several of the "potential appointees" are ministers who May has already sacked (e.g. Philip Dunne) or encouraged to resign (Patrick McLoughlin).
I think the premise of this is wrong.
Recanters would be welcomed with open arms. If she can get a tweak/clarification to the backstop, then those who voted against coming back into the fold would be valuable currency.
Or, if policy becomes no deal, then 100+ become available again.
But, if they’re really struggling, I’d be happy to take a Brexit Peerage and help out!
But the picture is even worse than it seems. Several of the "potential appointees" are ministers who May has already sacked (e.g. Philip Dunne) or encouraged to resign (Patrick McLoughlin).
I think the premise of this is wrong.
Recanters would be welcomed with open arms. If she can get a tweak/clarification to the backstop, then those who voted against coming back into the fold would be valuable currency.
Or, if policy becomes no deal, then 100+ become available again.
But, if they’re really struggling, I’d be happy to take a Brexit Peerage and help out!
It’s also nonsense as she can always do was jezza did and have people do multiple jobs or merge of some of more nonsense jobs.
Comments
I hear hurricanes a-blowing
I know the end is coming soon
I fear rivers over flowing
I hear the voice of rage and ruin
Making a psephological point, maybe.
Honestly though, do you really believe the point you are making?
Honestly?
Corbyn has a much more moderate position than Soubry - he wants to respect the result of the referendum.
Thanks for the header, Mike. I have already put a few quid on Hancock. Managed to get 85, a while back (next leader).
If he runs, pretty sure I will be able to lay some off.
But sure, let’s call it a “transition”. Sounds less nasty and bigoted.
Because you have signed up to a millennial cult, your own cognitive dissonance means you have to ascribe what are literally murderous motives to your opponents.
Sad.
https://www.loudersound.com/features/story-behind-the-song-bad-moon-rising-by-creedence
https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1086440258781220867
Sanctimonious, meet hypocritical.
I also must mention nigel voted for Hague and howard,if you remember those two GE campaigns were our membership of the EU and immigration.
The poor guy must be stacked with guilt for his past voting record.
@matt suggested his view was illegitimate because he currently lives in the Middle East
I suggest you take my advice.
I’d look at the UK’s needs not race or place of birth. I think that’s more liberal than the current set up.
“Without fear or favour”
Is not exultation.
Wake me up inside
Call my name and save me from the dark
Bid my blood to run
Before I come undone
Save me from the nothing I've become
morning Mr T
Manageable if you're wedged up.
https://twitter.com/rolandmcs/status/1086899951735574528
We had a referendum - turnout was very high - MPs want to ignore the result.
It's an incredible situation.
Good morning Alan.
Whisky had never not helped a situation. At whatever time of day.
have a good morning
Very struck by the poll down the thread which says that 37% of Remainers would refuse to attend the ceremony and then cut off all contact if their son or daughter married a Leaver, whereas just 9% of Leavers would do the same if it were the other way around.
This feels right to me. Nor is it a trivial matter. It speaks to the genuine feelings of superiority amongst Remainers. It is an education and class thing, not a matter of political difference. If your child is planning to get hitched to a Leaver, that is 'marrying down', and as such is to be strongly discouraged. It is reprehensible, of course it is, but it is perfectly understandable.
It was a time of the preacher
When the story began
Of the choice of a lady
And the love of a man
How he loved her so dearly
He went out of his mind
When she left him for someone
That she'd left behind
And he cried like a baby
And he screamed like a panther
In the middle of the night
And he saddled his pony
And he went for a ride
It was a time of the preacher
In the year of O-one
Now the preachin' is over
And the lesson's begun
Willie Nelson
Of course used more than incidentally by the Brilliant TV serial, "Edge of Darkness"... seems kind of appropriate as British Politics becomes a choice between some kind of extremist death cults rather than a forum of ideas.
Well, not the part about guaranteed incomes, anyway.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/theresa-may-blames-jeremy-corbyn-as-cross-party-talks-fail-sssgzj3j3
On this thread, and last nights, the despair is not abating as each faction keeps fighting for its own interpretation of Brexit, or not, and it is not a pretty sight
Inaccurate newspapers headlines over the Good Friday Agreement and a bi-lateral backstop deal with Ireland were jumped on with seal, roundly condemning TM for such nonsense, when Downing Street said both stories were not true and had nothing to do with them
We had a Sky Brexit programme from Leeds with an audience of 50 and the conclusion was that no deal is the preferred Brexit, but not one of the audience had changed their vote since the referendum. As I said last night, I understand there is a programme called ‘Pointless’ and this was the perfect description of Sky’s report
Over the last few day’s noises from JRM have indicated that if Brexit comes under threat the deal comes back into play, as even TM’s deal is better than no Brexit. TM seems to have concluded that the opposition parties want one or more of removing no deal from negotiations, a customs union, or a referendum, none of which are acceptable. She has therefore taken the only option open to her and will attempt to further clarify the backstop with the EU, as the ERG and the DUP have the 110 votes needed to get her over the line. Of course it would be naive not to accept that she is putting her party’s interest first.
Listened to Mark Francois on Adam Boulton this morning, he is quite the most ignorant, bullying oaf, you could imagine and he is miles away from my conservative views. I do not think Dominic Grieve is correct in what he is doing but he does have an intellect that dwarfs the ERG.
I hope that the HOC does take control over this and actually can see the political judgement of TM in that by firmly backing the ERG and DUP, when the HOC takes control, she can say she did try to resolve the backstop but ultimately the forces of remain, both in the HOC and the EU, overwhelmed the ERG hard Brexit, and most important of all, hopefully, takes no deal off the table with a deal
Just a point, these are my views but I am sure there are others
A bastion of prejudice against anyone who had the temerity of coming to the conclusion that the EU didn’t seem to benefit them. John Harris’ piece today about Tim Martin and Wetherspoons has made the comments on here look positively enlightened.
I know people like Alastair M have made the case on here for dialogue and bringing people around but I cannot see this 37% of people being convinced. There are only another 11% to work on.
So it is back to Plan A, shout at Jonny-foreigner a bit more to try and make him understand, and cosy up to the ERG and the bowler hats.
She is truly pathetic. Truly awful. Truly clueless. Truly the worst PM of my lifetime. Whether it is Parliament, the Cabinet or the 1922, can we just get rid of her and let someone else - anyone else - try and sort out the mess she has made of trying to get us a workable Brexit.
TM has been given a poisoned chalice and I cannot see anyone who would be any better at sorting this intractable problem
It's like a Green manifesto - can't believe Ms Lucas isn't a supporter..
Of course, if Corbyn got tossed overboard and a vaguely normal human (say, Cooper) became Labour leader whilst May remained Conservative leader, unlikely as that might sound, I'd be inclined to go the other way. May's a dreadful leader. Corbyn is worse.
No way of making the UK self-sufficient under the common external tariff...
However nowadays I think Brexit is much more of a tribal identity kind of issue, and the "are you gammon or not" question swamps the various fringe theories about other issues.
If it's a negotiation the best next steps are not difficult to discern. Split the WA and the PD. Ratify the WA and leave. Hold a GE, winner takes the trade talks, ultimate outcome being a soft Brexit under the Cons or a very soft Brexit under Labour.
But if it's a war, forget all that. Mushy compromise will not do. We must remain in the EU or leave it good and proper. One side must win, otherwise the fight goes on.
Now on the internet, it is undoubtedly a war. Ditto down at College Green and, by the sounds of it, at Weatherspoons.
But away from all of that? I think for most people it is still a negotiation. In which case leaving with a deal is best - and IMO, for all the current noise, inevitable.
They appear to envision a pure socialist country free from the constraints that a nasty capitalistic EU might impose upon them.
Perhaps they should ally with the ERG.
I refuse to vote for either May or Corbyn.
However, I can see myself voting for Labour post Corbyn, whereas the Tory party looks looks to be heading ever further away from electability.
Corbyn *is* allied with the ERG. He voted with them on Article 50, he voted with them on TMay's deal, and as far as we can tell he'll vote with them on any other deal, and on any attempts to stop the resulting no-deal Brexit.
We live in strange political times.
http://schnitzelrepublic.blogspot.com/2019/01/brexit-germans-eu-and-40-odd-billion.html
https://twitter.com/addadc/status/1087280731506860032
But the picture is even worse than it seems. Several of the "potential appointees" are ministers who May has already sacked (e.g. Philip Dunne) or encouraged to resign (Patrick McLoughlin).
From memory:
"The best are full of doubts
The worst are full of passionate conviction..."
But she is happy to entertain the wildest unicorn fantasies of her own backbench.
I suspect that with any other Labour leader we wouldn't be in the mess we are in...
Please don’t stoop to the level of the unicorns-fanciers.
Like, morning of 24/6/16, which of these the closest:
(i) Quietly pleased.
(ii) A deep and real sense of optimism and well being.
(iii) Exultant! Over the moon!
(And as for you, Dr Palmer, I'll have no more of your insults. 'Reasonable and balanced' indeed..... )
The party has grown a lot in last say decade or so and so perhaps these views are now outweighed by others.
However, I don’t expect any/many of the sane wing of the Tory party to survive in the event of a new Centre party being formed.
Centre-right-ism - although allegedly the national creed, wouldn’t get enough votes outside the more prosperous parts of London and the more liberal Home Counties (Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Surrey).
The Lords might be more interesting, and whether the Scottish Tories separate themselves formally from the national party.
Recanters would be welcomed with open arms. If she can get a tweak/clarification to the backstop, then those who voted against coming back into the fold would be valuable currency.
Or, if policy becomes no deal, then 100+ become available again.
But, if they’re really struggling, I’d be happy to take a Brexit Peerage and help out!