Usually pays off to lay the most right-wing option actually winning (Sweden Democrats, AfD, Le Pen, Wilders) as there are punters who put their money where their heart is.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
Wrong choice.
She must rule out any further softening or extension or revocation. Either the EU can come back with a deal acceptable to the DUP and ERG or we no deal or those opposed to no deal can prevent it with her deal.
See two can play at that game. Everyone is demanding compromise with compromise being whatever they happen to believe already.
Utter rubbish. Lots people who would rather Remain are prepared to make lots of compromises to Leave with a deal. I would have voted for May's deal!
Usually pays off to lay the most right-wing option actually winning (Sweden Democrats, AfD, Le Pen, Wilders) as there are punters who put their money where their heart is.
... what market were you in that this was payday?
I got my money on the results. Actually I lost £20 today, which I have put against the Left abstaining.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Depends. As I asked before, what would it cost? And what is the mechanism for getting out if we change our minds? I think many Tory MPs would need those answers first.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Mordaunt should be coming onto your next Tory leader radar. She is the voice of that Derby QT audience....
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Depends. As I asked before, what would it cost? And what is the mechanism for getting out if we change our minds? I think many Tory MPs would need those answers first.
The WA would stand as it does now (including the backstop) and the Political Declaration would be changed to state we were moving to a different future position. The details (including exit/cost) of that future position would be no more stated than they are for May's deal (i.e. not very much).
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Let's have a good laugh at the stupid Paddies eh Mr Alanbrooke?
international relations isnt your strong point, stick to shagga dog stories
Au contraire. International relations are very much my strong point, which is why I have nothing but contempt for nasty little bigots who attempt to parade their English superiority, whilst simultaneously regularly not knowing how to put together a coherent sentence, or know where an apostrophe should be used. As for your puerile attempts at put downs, I don't think even Jeremy Corbyn would employ you.
You really are thick, do you actually ever read any posts other than your own.
Nationalists are in no position to call others thick. Nicola seems quite bright, but her followers have the same mental capability of the average kipper (of both varieties). How are the jackboots today? Have you done any proper research into the history of the party you support yet? You have? You knew it is fully of fascist sympathisers and appeasers of the Nazis, but you don't mind? Oh, ok, fair enough.
It is still very disappointing to see people that should have learnt how things work over the past 2 odd years, still do not have a clue. The 22% illustrated is nothing to do with the WTO but everything to do with the Common External Tariff or more correctly the EU.
Irelands big problem is the EU playing brinkmanship with agri products screws up their relationship with their biggest market. Since much of the produce has a limited life and no easily switchable market Barnier threatening UK farmers with controls damages Ireland more.
Usually pays off to lay the most right-wing option actually winning (Sweden Democrats, AfD, Le Pen, Wilders) as there are punters who put their money where their heart is.
Usually pays off to lay the most right-wing option actually winning (Sweden Democrats, AfD, Le Pen, Wilders) as there are punters who put their money where their heart is.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
Wrong choice.
She must rule out any further softening or extension or revocation. Either the EU can come back with a deal acceptable to the DUP and ERG or we no deal or those opposed to no deal can prevent it with her deal.
See two can play at that game. Everyone is demanding compromise with compromise being whatever they happen to believe already.
Utter rubbish. Lots people who would rather Remain are prepared to make lots of compromises to Leave with a deal. I would have voted for May's deal!
Do you think you'd vote leave in a remain vs. deal referendum?
As we approach the end of an extraordinary week, are we much the wiser? As most of us expected, May's Withdrawal Agreement was heavily defeated in the Commons - whether many of us thought it would go down so heavily I don't know - but I still get the sense it is no Norwegian Blue and is still there in the background.
I said on Monday five things wouldn't happen - these included a Second Referendum, Revocation of A50 and a GE. The polls might offer the Conservatives a window of opportunity but 230 was a big margin and there's no guarantee the new Conservative intake would be full of May loyalists itching to vote for her Deal.
At the moment then it's No Deal and the consequences thereof. I imagine a mutually agreed extension to A50 is more than possible but to do what? Additional preparations for leaving without a Deal - possibly but I keep hearing this notion of the permanent CU.
Both May and Corbyn face significant difficulties - May has a policy her Party doesn't want while Corbyn doesn't have a policy but his Party wants one.
As an aside, I'm inclined to the view that IF we had a second vote, LEAVE would win again and possibly by a larger margin but that's all obfuscation. The problem is more immediate and I suspect the can should be ready for another kicking as I see little alternative to an extension to A50 at this time.
I posted my solution earlier which only requires a single MP and the Speaker being helpful.
While 3 options remain on the table MPs can avoid making a decision so one of the extremes has to be removed and David Green came up with a suitable amendment earlier that does just that. Granted it means that 8pm on January 29th will be stressful as one of the options disappear and the final vote becomes May's Deal or .... but at least MPs will only have binary choices to make and so be forced to make them....
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Mordaunt should be coming onto your next Tory leader radar. She is the voice of that Derby QT audience....
I thought that but her refusal to walk with Raab and McVey might have damaged her chances. The ERG probably wouldn't back her and so she is stuck in that position where she cannot get support from the most ardent leavers but is too extreme for Remainers and their likes
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Usually pays off to lay the most right-wing option actually winning (Sweden Democrats, AfD, Le Pen, Wilders) as there are punters who put their money where their heart is.
The election made it impossible to form a government of the right (without some degree of support from the SD's) or a coalition of the left at all. But, I think this will cost the Centre and Liberals very dear. Both parties did not poll much above the 4% cut off, and they certainly won't be getting right wing voters in the future.
I think that the Moderates, KD's, and SD's will increasingly work together.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Mordaunt should be coming onto your next Tory leader radar. She is the voice of that Derby QT audience....
I thought that but her refusal to walk with Raab and McVey might have damaged her chances. The ERG probably wouldn't back her and so she is stuck in that position where she cannot get support from the most ardent leavers but is too extreme for Remainers and their likes
I have always thought that the ERG need at least one person round the cabinet table to let them know what is being discussed and what the other members are saying. She may well have been the person they agreed to stay on.
It is still very disappointing to see people that should have learnt how things work over the past 2 odd years, still do not have a clue. The 22% illustrated is nothing to do with the WTO but everything to do with the Common External Tariff or more correctly the EU.
Irelands big problem is the EU playing brinkmanship with agri products screws up their relationship with their biggest market. Since much of the produce has a limited life and no easily switchable market Barnier threatening UK farmers with controls damages Ireland more.
Yes, I also give Leo a bit of a pass on the hard line stance because I think it is Coveney who is the real architect. Ex lobbyist for the AgriFood industry and brother CEO of one of Irelands large food businesses.
As we approach the end of an extraordinary week, are we much the wiser? As most of us expected, May's Withdrawal Agreement was heavily defeated in the Commons - whether many of us thought it would go down so heavily I don't know - but I still get the sense it is no Norwegian Blue and is still there in the background.
I said on Monday five things wouldn't happen - these included a Second Referendum, Revocation of A50 and a GE. The polls might offer the Conservatives a window of opportunity but 230 was a big margin and there's no guarantee the new Conservative intake would be full of May loyalists itching to vote for her Deal.
At the moment then it's No Deal and the consequences thereof. I imagine a mutually agreed extension to A50 is more than possible but to do what? Additional preparations for leaving without a Deal - possibly but I keep hearing this notion of the permanent CU.
Both May and Corbyn face significant difficulties - May has a policy her Party doesn't want while Corbyn doesn't have a policy but his Party wants one.
As an aside, I'm inclined to the view that IF we had a second vote, LEAVE would win again and possibly by a larger margin but that's all obfuscation. The problem is more immediate and I suspect the can should be ready for another kicking as I see little alternative to an extension to A50 at this time.
I agree with your list of 'not happenings' and I strongly agree that the Withdrawal Agreement (as opposed to the Political Declaration) is far from deceased.
No Deal is talked of as 'the default', and indeed in law it is, but if we replace the law with the political imperatives of not trashing (i) the EU referendum and (ii) the British economy and (iii) the Good Friday Agreement and (iv) the regulatory coherence and integrity of the UK, then lo and behold the default becomes the Withdrawal Agreement.
I reckon that Mrs May's game is to allow MPs to try and construct an alternative plan that satisfies (i) to (iv), and has an on-the-record parliamentary majority, and is not obviously incapable of being agreed with the EU, and then if - or rather when - they prove unequal to this task, to simply say, OK, so sign on the dotted line.
And I do think it will work. Not sure how long it will take, but I think that she - and of course Michael Gove - will eventually prevail. Minority view, I fully realize, but that is my sense of things.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tory support might switch to Labour in the key West Midland marginals. Brexit is one issue among many. Less likely elsewhere but would be more likely to switch to Farage’s new party or more likely still, just to DNV
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Mordaunt should be coming onto your next Tory leader radar. She is the voice of that Derby QT audience....
I thought that but her refusal to walk with Raab and McVey might have damaged her chances. The ERG probably wouldn't back her and so she is stuck in that position where she cannot get support from the most ardent leavers but is too extreme for Remainers and their likes
Who else are ERG going to support to take them into the next election? Boris is looking a busted flush. Fox? No. Davis? No. Rees-Mogg? No evidence he wants it. They really need a friend from the next generation. As long as they get say Chancellor and Foreign Secretary out of supporting her, that would probably do them.
You knew it is fully of fascist sympathisers and appeasers of the Nazis
Titter.
Since your every other post tediously harps on this theme, can you give us a list of these fascist sympathisers and appeasers of the Nazis? I'd love to be educated by an expert.
Let's have a good laugh at the stupid Paddies eh Mr Alanbrooke?
What a strange comment.
Well I only wrote it once. However, it was meant to indicate Mr Alanbrooke's misplaced sense of superiority to all people foreign.
Except he didn't - you made a reference to 'paddies'.
You seem to have a problem repeating repeating repeating yourself. Anyway, I am sorry you don't understand irony, I used the term in a way that I though someone who held such views might. Also, as I am half Irish myself, I thought it was OK.
Apologies for the double post - unintentional but perhaps necessary in your case. You seem to have a problem with spelling. Maybe focus on that and achieving coherency with your own views before interpreting others for them.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
It is still very disappointing to see people that should have learnt how things work over the past 2 odd years, still do not have a clue. The 22% illustrated is nothing to do with the WTO but everything to do with the Common External Tariff or more correctly the EU.
Irelands big problem is the EU playing brinkmanship with agri products screws up their relationship with their biggest market. Since much of the produce has a limited life and no easily switchable market Barnier threatening UK farmers with controls damages Ireland more.
Yes, I also give Leo a bit of a pass on the hard line stance because I think it is Coveney who is the real architect. Ex lobbyist for the AgriFood industry and brother CEO of one of Irelands large food businesses.
Hes also a former MEP and was hoping to succeed Kenny, but Varadkar pipped him to the post
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
Usual caveats. I know a bunch of people keeping very quiet about how they voted in the referendum.
So you are a reluctant Remainer. You think the result should be implemented and blame others for not doing so.
You are an appalled Leave voter. You were made a fool. Maybe you don't feel too good about that.
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
Usual caveats. I know a bunch of people keeping very quiet about how they voted in the referendum.
So you are a reluctant Remainer. You think the result should be implemented and blame others for not doing so.
You are an appalled Leave voter. You were made a fool. Maybe you don't feel too good about that.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
You are right, anecdotal and, therefore meaningless
In fairness though, Nigel, it is an argument and one I have some sympathy with - a sort of 'lay in the bed you've made' line of thought. Brexit may be a disaster but we would get over it in time and if it made people a bit more careful about what they voted for, and a bit more aware of the importance of political choices, would that be such a bad thing.
The counter-arguments are plenty of course, but I wouldn't be dismissive of Philip's line. It's certainly far more reasonable than some of the nonsense that was trotted out at the referendum.
I have reached the point where I believe No-Deal Brexit has to happen and, regretfully, it needs to be an utter shambles. Our system needs a severe shock to clean out decades of political deadwood.
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
Usual caveats. I know a bunch of people keeping very quiet about how they voted in the referendum.
So you are a reluctant Remainer. You think the result should be implemented and blame others for not doing so.
You are an appalled Leave voter. You were made a fool. Maybe you don't feel too good about that.
They probably know what you think about Brexit and are keeping shtum.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
You think as a Leave voter, I'm going to rock up to the polling station for Dr. Sarah Wollaston?
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
Leave winning by a bigger margin probably a good thing, would give legitimacy to the result in enough peoples eyes that you could force through a hard or maybe even a no deal Brexit through parliament with little objection.
Afternoon Dan
It's one of the rare areas where I am agreement with the Prime Minister. We cannot have a second referendum whose primary motive is to overturn the first so soon and even before the result of the first has been fully enacted.
There's this little notion of the "will of the people" banging round my head and the will of those who voted that June day was to leave the EU. It may not be now and it may not be in ten years time and once we've left it will be perfectly credible for any political party to take a position of seeking to rejoin the EU (though on what terms may not be so clear) but for now democracy demands (I believe) the 23/6/16 be enacted.
There's this other little notion of people taking responsibility for their actions. Democracy isn't accountability-free for either politicians or voters. If we as voters get it wrong we may blame the politicians but ultimately they are the politicians we put in power through the ballot box.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
You think as a Leave voter, I'm going to rock up to the polling station for Dr. Sarah Wollaston?
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
As, indeed, will many Labour voters.
As a leave voter I doubt you’ll have much luck with Labour or the Lib Dems, and with a disintegrating UKIP the only option may be abstaining.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
Not sure sit out is correct, I will be a voting AGAINST Labour, but NOT FOR the Tories even though they will end up getting my vote. Stopping Corbyn is the most important and patriotic thing to do.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
Wrong choice.
She must rule out any further softening or extension or revocation. Either the EU can come back with a deal acceptable to the DUP and ERG or we no deal or those opposed to no deal can prevent it with her deal.
See two can play at that game. Everyone is demanding compromise with compromise being whatever they happen to believe already.
Utter rubbish. Lots people who would rather Remain are prepared to make lots of compromises to Leave with a deal. I would have voted for May's deal!
Do you think you'd vote leave in a remain vs. deal referendum?
Nope. I'd vote Remain in such a poll. But I would have backed the Deal last week if I were an MP.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
You think as a Leave voter, I'm going to rock up to the polling station for Dr. Sarah Wollaston?
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
As, indeed, will many Labour voters.
As a leave voter I doubt you’ll have much luck with Labour or the Lib Dems, and with a disintegrating UKIP the only option may be abstaining.
Which we should not forget is an option taken by over 30% of the electorate in general.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
So will she force the Tories to run on a manifesto pledge to support her WA deal?
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
Usual caveats. I know a bunch of people keeping very quiet about how they voted in the referendum.
So you are a reluctant Remainer. You think the result should be implemented and blame others for not doing so.
You are an appalled Leave voter. You were made a fool. Maybe you don't feel too good about that.
They probably know what you think about Brexit and are keeping shtum.
Not me personally, but it is Scotland. Apparently 40% voted Leave. You don't find across many who admit to having done so.
I was making a general point however. No-one enjoys owning up to being fooled.
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
You are right, anecdotal and, therefore meaningless
In fairness though, Nigel, it is an argument and one I have some sympathy with - a sort of 'lay in the bed you've made' line of thought. Brexit may be a disaster but we would get over it in time and if it made people a bit more careful about what they voted for, and a bit more aware of the importance of political choices, would that be such a bad thing.
The counter-arguments are plenty of course, but I wouldn't be dismissive of Philip's line. It's certainly far more reasonable than some of the nonsense that was trotted out at the referendum.
I have reached the point where I believe No-Deal Brexit has to happen and, regretfully, it needs to be an utter shambles. Our system needs a severe shock to clean out decades of political deadwood.
I have some sympathy with that view though I think Parliament will not let it happen. More likely there will be last-minute screeching u-turn through either extension or revokation of A50.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Another complete and utter waste of time. It solves nothing and distracts from the issue of the day. It is no different from postponing the Meaningless Vote for a month.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The Wetherspoons in Spennymoor is outstandingly good value.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
So will she force the Tories to run on a manifesto pledge to support her WA deal?
Presumably, if a GE comes to pass. I'd always assumed that May would only go back to the people - whether through a GE or a referendum - if she thought it was the only means left to rescue her Deal. Has she privately concluded that this time has come? Who can say?
Personally, if she fires the starting gun this soon I'll be very surprised - i.e. I'll believe it when I see it - but given the present crazy circumstances, who knows what's going to happen next anymore?
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
You think as a Leave voter, I'm going to rock up to the polling station for Dr. Sarah Wollaston?
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
As, indeed, will many Labour voters.
No, they wont.
As usual, most voters will make their minds up on the basis of national policies and party leaders. And if the election is in 2022, they'll also do so primarily on domestic and security policy, rather than Europe.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
So will she force the Tories to run on a manifesto pledge to support her WA deal?
Presumably, if a GE comes to pass. I'd always assumed that May would only go back to the people - whether through a GE or a referendum - if she thought it was the only means left to rescue her Deal. Has she privately concluded that this time has come? Who can say?
Personally, if she fires the starting gun this soon I'll be very surprised - i.e. I'll believe it when I see it - but given the present crazy circumstances, who knows what's going to happen next anymore?
Well I guess this is the last chance to get a GE done and dusted and have enough time to pass the remaining legislation required before Brexit day. If May really does want to hold to 29th March, this might be the only way she can do it.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
You think as a Leave voter, I'm going to rock up to the polling station for Dr. Sarah Wollaston?
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
As, indeed, will many Labour voters.
As a leave voter I doubt you’ll have much luck with Labour or the Lib Dems, and with a disintegrating UKIP the only option may be abstaining.
I doubt many of the problem MPs would be able to stand as they would need an affirmative vote from their association executives.
Not sure sit out is correct, I will be a voting AGAINST Labour, but NOT FOR the Tories even though they will end up getting my vote. Stopping Corbyn is the most important and patriotic thing to do.
I'm not sure they'll interpret your X quite as you wish, rather than a vote of splendid confidence.
TBF, though, an awful lot of votes on both sides are cast precisely on that basis. The parties pretend they've had X million enthusiastic supporters, but the median supporter is saying "Oh, I suppose you're better than the other lot".
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The Wetherspoons in Spennymoor is outstandingly good value.
None of them are particularly good value. You pay low prices, for absolutely bloody awful food.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
You think as a Leave voter, I'm going to rock up to the polling station for Dr. Sarah Wollaston?
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
As, indeed, will many Labour voters.
As a leave voter I doubt you’ll have much luck with Labour or the Lib Dems, and with a disintegrating UKIP the only option may be abstaining.
I doubt many of the problem MPs would be able to stand as they would need an affirmative vote from their association executives.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The Wetherspoons in Spennymoor is outstandingly good value.
None of them are particularly good value. You pay low prices, for absolutely bloody awful food.
I remember a family get together, with folks flown in from the US, at a great Thai restaurant in Rochester. My brother, who had gastric issues at the time, announced he couldn't eat anything on the menu so we all ended up in the 'spoons next door. The food was vile.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Another complete and utter waste of time. It solves nothing and distracts from the issue of the day. It is no different from postponing the Meaningless Vote for a month.
Better than the inexorable deadlocked slide towards the Brexit cliff edge imo.
But what would the Tory Manifesto offer? If it's May's Deal how would the ERG campaign?
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Feb 28th would not be a good karma for the Tories - the Feb 1974 election was on that date.
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
You are right, anecdotal and, therefore meaningless
In fairness though, Nigel, it is an argument and one I have some sympathy with - a sort of 'lay in the bed you've made' line of thought. Brexit may be a disaster but we would get over it in time and if it made people a bit more careful about what they voted for, and a bit more aware of the importance of political choices, would that be such a bad thing.
The counter-arguments are plenty of course, but I wouldn't be dismissive of Philip's line. It's certainly far more reasonable than some of the nonsense that was trotted out at the referendum.
I have reached the point where I believe No-Deal Brexit has to happen and, regretfully, it needs to be an utter shambles. Our system needs a severe shock to clean out decades of political deadwood.
I have some sympathy with that view though I think Parliament will not let it happen. More likely there will be last-minute screeching u-turn through either extension or revokation of A50.
What happens happens. I am too dazed by the utter stupidity on display to care any more...
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The Wetherspoons in Spennymoor is outstandingly good value.
None of them are particularly good value. You pay low prices, for absolutely bloody awful food.
Pubs are generally better up North than they are in the South, and this one is no exception.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Feb 28th would not be a good karma for the Tories - the Feb 1974 election was on that date.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
Wrong choice.
She must rule out any further softening or extension or revocation. Either the EU can come back with a deal acceptable to the DUP and ERG or we no deal or those opposed to no deal can prevent it with her deal.
See two can play at that game. Everyone is demanding compromise with compromise being whatever they happen to believe already.
There is no majority for that line. Maybe try reading the post next time.
There is no majority for any line currently. That's the point. Everyone is claiming if only others compromise to what they want there will be a majority.
Hey guess what, that always works. If only the rest of the world compromises to what I want we can all agree ... if you had comprehended the third paragraph you would have understood that.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The Wetherspoons in Spennymoor is outstandingly good value.
None of them are particularly good value. You pay low prices, for absolutely bloody awful food.
I used to go in the Briar Rose on Bennett’s Hill in Central Birmingham which had a great selection of real ales and you didn’t see any of the fellow professional types who preferred the wine bars off Colmore Row. They also used to do a pint of real ale and a chicken burger (which was a chicken breast) on a bun with chips and salad - 5 quid for both. That’s about 5 years ago mind you but outstanding valued if you go in the right one.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The food is one level above McDonalds in my view (which means that I've eaten there more than once), but they stock pretty good bottled beer - e.g. Orkney brewery, or from the people local to Cameron's old constituency - and they can't mess up beer that comes to them in a bottle.
This is why May MUST make her choice - soft Brexit as it can win in Parliament and is in the national interest.
'Top' minister?? Does anyone take Penny Splash seriously??
She is now The Voice of No Deal Brexit in the Cabinet.
Unlike Boris.
Fox and Mordaunt would walk if May compromises. But I'm not sure there are more than 20 Con MPs overall that backed May's deal but would vote against Norway+ IF it secured significant Labour backing and therefore looked like it would pass.
Possibly, but Norway has already rightly said staying in the EEA doesn’t make sense if we ultimately want to leave. What might satisfy MP would decimate electoral support for the Tory Party which is why May opposes it.
Why would you switch to Labour over it?
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
Tories won't switch. They'll just sit out the next election.
With Corbyn the Bogeyman I don’t think they will. He will not be the underdog next time, and will get some proper scrutiny. He doesn’t handle difficult questions well
You think as a Leave voter, I'm going to rock up to the polling station for Dr. Sarah Wollaston?
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
As, indeed, will many Labour voters.
As a leave voter I doubt you’ll have much luck with Labour or the Lib Dems, and with a disintegrating UKIP the only option may be abstaining.
I doubt many of the problem MPs would be able to stand as they would need an affirmative vote from their association executives.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The Wetherspoons in Spennymoor is outstandingly good value.
None of them are particularly good value. You pay low prices, for absolutely bloody awful food.
Well, quite. It has to have value to have a chance of being good value.
Some interesting history pertinent to Trump, and special prosecutors:
https://www.csmonitor.com/1980/0717/071756.html “When I went up there," he says, recalling his installment as Watergate prosecutor, "I thought he had been victimized by his staff. I thought he had a staff that had done things on their own. That they had not let their chief know that they were participating in these cheap doings. I thought they had been doing this on their own primarily, nd that Nixon was not aware of it. I thought he should have been aware of it, but that's a far different question from active participation in it, you know.
"What happened is, when I heard this tape recording where he was schooling [ chief of staff H. R.] Haldeman on how to lie, when I got to that part of it -- boy! I'll tell you! -- was it a new ball game as far as I was concerned! I just shuddered at the thought of what this was going to lead to."
….
"If we hadn't been successful -- a first in history -- in getting that grand jury report [which showed exactly what Nixon had been doing] into the hands of the House Judiciary Committee, by litigating it . . . well, they were sitting there absolutely bogged down.
"Then, here comes this pincer movement," Mr. Jaworski recalls, describing the effect of this legal squeeze play. "The House Judiciary Committee, armed with the evidence we had supplied them, and me coming after him for more evidence . . . I knew it would be absolutely ruinous to him if I should get it. And he knew it, too. That's why he was bucking me.”
…
…"there was no time to [bring Nixon to trial]. We would have run such a severe risk, not only of disturbing our entire case, but of gooing along a rabbit path that would have been unsuccessful, if I had tried to indict him. Because we didn't even know if he was indictable. And the worst part of it is, if we had gone along that trail, we would have spent a lot of time in court and in litigating that question and would have missed the timing which was so important to this thing.
"The only time that he could have been indicted was after he had resigned, and he was no longer a sitting President, and I didn't have the same problems…
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
The last time a Conservative PM went for an election on Feb 28th it didn't end well and he was starting with a majority.
Why do we need a GE? What will it achieve? All it will do is waste valuable preparation time for 29/3. Sheer unadulterated futility.
I spoke to someone yesterday and at the end of the meeting we got into a general chat and into the subject of Brexit. He said he was Remain 2 years ago (he mentioned that to me at the time two years ago too) but that Britain made a choice and we need to follow through with it. He blames the politicians for the impasse at the moment and not honouring the public's wishes. Says we just need to get on with it now and if there was another vote he would now vote Leave.
You are right, anecdotal and, therefore meaningless
In fairness though, Nigel, it is an argument and one I have some sympathy with - a sort of 'lay in the bed you've made' line of thought. Brexit may be a disaster but we would get over it in time and if it made people a bit more careful about what they voted for, and a bit more aware of the importance of political choices, would that be such a bad thing.
The counter-arguments are plenty of course, but I wouldn't be dismissive of Philip's line. It's certainly far more reasonable than some of the nonsense that was trotted out at the referendum.
I have reached the point where I believe No-Deal Brexit has to happen and, regretfully, it needs to be an utter shambles. Our system needs a severe shock to clean out decades of political deadwood.
I have some sympathy with that view though I think Parliament will not let it happen. More likely there will be last-minute screeching u-turn through either extension or revokation of A50.
What happens happens. I am too dazed by the utter stupidity on display to care any more...
But what makes you think it won't just be continuing utter stupidity after we No Deal Brexit ?
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Another complete and utter waste of time. It solves nothing and distracts from the issue of the day. It is no different from postponing the Meaningless Vote for a month.
I think you'd see a major Tory revolt at that. The Party is so split on Brexit that it'd be impossible to enforce any kind of discipline and any attempt to enforce May's line would provoke immense hostility towards the leadership from the members because it would mean either purging the candidates list of any opposed to the WA and/or imposing candidates on constituencies. Either way, there might not be enough people left on the candidates list. Such authoritarian procedures might well not be approved by the Party Board and even if they were, you'd be effectively expelling 60+ MPs and inviting them to form their own party under the leadership of, say, Boris. What could possibly go wrong from there?
But what would the Tory Manifesto offer? If it's May's Deal how would the ERG campaign?
A very good question, an election makes no sense from that point of view. Of course Labour would also have a similar dilemma.
What might make more sense is something like this:
1. Resolve the deadlock in parliament by agreeing to sign the Withdrawal Agreement but leave open the political declaration for either becoming a softer Brexit (so Labour could support it) or a harder Brexit (so it's easier for rebel Conservatives to accept it), in both cases effectively leaving a fudge.
2. In return for this, Theresa May agrees to an election some time in the late spring/early summer, so that the parties could campaign on their favoured longer-term Brexit options.
3. ... and the Conservatives could have a new leader too before the election...
I can see some difficulties (the backstop/DUP for a starter), but is there some glimmer of a possible way out in this approach?
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Feb 28th would not be a good karma for the Tories - the Feb 1974 election was on that date.
That does not sound right given the vote now scheduled for Jan 29th. March 7th or 14th would be more likely.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Another complete and utter waste of time. It solves nothing and distracts from the issue of the day. It is no different from postponing the Meaningless Vote for a month.
I think you'd see a major Tory revolt at that. The Party is so split on Brexit that it'd be impossible to enforce any kind of discipline and any attempt to enforce May's line would provoke immense hostility towards the leadership from the members because it would mean either purging the candidates list of any opposed to the WA and/or imposing candidates on constituencies. Either way, there might not be enough people left on the candidates list. Such authoritarian procedures might well not be approved by the Party Board and even if they were, you'd be effectively expelling 60+ MPs and inviting them to form their own party under the leadership of, say, Boris. What could possibly go wrong from there?
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The food is one level above McDonalds in my view (which means that I've eaten there more than once), but they stock pretty good bottled beer - e.g. Orkney brewery, or from the people local to Cameron's old constituency - and they can't mess up beer that comes to them in a bottle.
Never tried a McDonalds, so I can't comment on the relative awfulness.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
The last time a Conservative PM went for an election on Feb 28th it didn't end well and he was starting with a majority.
Why do we need a GE? What will it achieve? All it will do is waste valuable preparation time for 29/3. Sheer unadulterated futility.
We don't, and all the polling indicates the public feel the same. My guess/hope is that it is just contingency planning in case things fall apart.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
The last time a Conservative PM went for an election on Feb 28th it didn't end well and he was starting with a majority.
Why do we need a GE? What will it achieve? All it will do is waste valuable preparation time for 29/3. Sheer unadulterated futility.
But what would the Tory Manifesto offer? If it's May's Deal how would the ERG campaign?
A very good question, an election makes no sense from that point of view. Of course Labour would also have a similar dilemma.
What might make more sense is something like this:
1. Resolve the deadlock in parliament by agreeing to sign the Withdrawal Agreement but leave open the political declaration for either becoming a softer Brexit (so Labour could support it) or a harder Brexit (so it's easier for rebel Conservatives to accept it), in both cases effectively leaving a fudge.
2. In return for this, Theresa May agrees to an election some time in the late spring/early summer, so that the parties could campaign on their favoured longer-term Brexit options.
3. ... and the Conservatives could have a new leader too before the election...
I can see some difficulties (the backstop/DUP for a starter), but is there some glimmer of a possible way out in this approach?
I think I suggested this weeks ago. It does rely on Corbyn trusting May to deliver an election in April/May in return for support now.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The Wetherspoons in Spennymoor is outstandingly good value.
None of them are particularly good value. You pay low prices, for absolutely bloody awful food.
Pubs are generally better up North than they are in the South, and this one is no exception.
Sam Smith's from Tadcaster is the cheapest pubs for beer in tourist York.
I was surprised when told they also had pubs in London.
But what would the Tory Manifesto offer? If it's May's Deal how would the ERG campaign?
A very good question, an election makes no sense from that point of view. Of course Labour would also have a similar dilemma.
What might make more sense is something like this:
1. Resolve the deadlock in parliament by agreeing to sign the Withdrawal Agreement but leave open the political declaration for either becoming a softer Brexit (so Labour could support it) or a harder Brexit (so it's easier for rebel Conservatives to accept it), in both cases effectively leaving a fudge.
2. In return for this, Theresa May agrees to an election some time in the late spring/early summer, so that the parties could campaign on their favoured longer-term Brexit options.
3. ... and the Conservatives could have a new leader too before the election...
I can see some difficulties (the backstop/DUP for a starter), but is there some glimmer of a possible way out in this approach?
No one would trust May to deliver on such a promise. And I doubt Corbyn would do any kind of deal with her, even if she did try to promise him an an election (which she could only deliver if her backbenchers went along with it, and would they?)
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The food is one level above McDonalds in my view (which means that I've eaten there more than once), but they stock pretty good bottled beer - e.g. Orkney brewery, or from the people local to Cameron's old constituency - and they can't mess up beer that comes to them in a bottle.
Never tried a McDonalds, so I can't comment on the relative awfulness.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Feb 28th would not be a good karma for the Tories - the Feb 1974 election was on that date.
That does not sound right given the vote now scheduled for Jan 29th. March 7th or 14th would be more likely.
Any GE later than Feb 28th would leave less than a month to vote in the WA and pass the required (under the EU(W) Act) legislation to enable it. By my reckoning she's got until next Wed to call a GE for that date under the FTPA.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Another complete and utter waste of time. It solves nothing and distracts from the issue of the day. It is no different from postponing the Meaningless Vote for a month.
I think you'd see a major Tory revolt at that. The Party is so split on Brexit that it'd be impossible to enforce any kind of discipline and any attempt to enforce May's line would provoke immense hostility towards the leadership from the members because it would mean either purging the candidates list of any opposed to the WA and/or imposing candidates on constituencies. Either way, there might not be enough people left on the candidates list. Such authoritarian procedures might well not be approved by the Party Board and even if they were, you'd be effectively expelling 60+ MPs and inviting them to form their own party under the leadership of, say, Boris. What could possibly go wrong from there?
Sounds great - exciting times, eh?
Imagine if a Boris-led new party won the votes of everyone who favours No Deal, and scraped an overall majority
But what would the Tory Manifesto offer? If it's May's Deal how would the ERG campaign?
A very good question, an election makes no sense from that point of view. Of course Labour would also have a similar dilemma.
What might make more sense is something like this:
1. Resolve the deadlock in parliament by agreeing to sign the Withdrawal Agreement but leave open the political declaration for either becoming a softer Brexit (so Labour could support it) or a harder Brexit (so it's easier for rebel Conservatives to accept it), in both cases effectively leaving a fudge.
2. In return for this, Theresa May agrees to an election some time in the late spring/early summer, so that the parties could campaign on their favoured longer-term Brexit options.
3. ... and the Conservatives could have a new leader too before the election...
I can see some difficulties (the backstop/DUP for a starter), but is there some glimmer of a possible way out in this approach?
No one would trust May to deliver on such a promise. And I doubt Corbyn would do any kind of deal with her, even if she did try to promise him an an election (which she could only deliver if her backbenchers went along with it, and would they?)
If they won't trust her, or pretend not to, then it's likely to be crash out with No Deal. Which, to be fair, is what Corbyn wants.
Well I suppose if you aren't bothered about things like truth and facts then trifles like copyright law can be dismissed at will.
Wetherspoons has a magazine?
God, yes. Along with the manager and staff of the Elmer Chickenshit pub taking part in a worthy fun run for charity it is pages and pages of full scale Brexit paranoia. The other day I was stuck at the airport as the weather closed in with nothing to entertain me except Wetherspoon's Mein Kampf levels of hatred against the elites and how they were betraying the people of Britain.
The elites that own chains of pubs are an exception of course.
Hardly elite pubs. though. I made the mistake of going to one once and ordering some food. It's not a mistake I shall ever make again.
The food is one level above McDonalds in my view (which means that I've eaten there more than once), but they stock pretty good bottled beer - e.g. Orkney brewery, or from the people local to Cameron's old constituency - and they can't mess up beer that comes to them in a bottle.
Never tried a McDonalds, so I can't comment on the relative awfulness.
Never. Tried. A. McDonalds?
You haven't lived, man!
@Charles: best added to your bucket, rather than your bucket-list; it's every bit a bad as you'd expect it to be.
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
Another complete and utter waste of time. It solves nothing and distracts from the issue of the day. It is no different from postponing the Meaningless Vote for a month.
I think you'd see a major Tory revolt at that. The Party is so split on Brexit that it'd be impossible to enforce any kind of discipline and any attempt to enforce May's line would provoke immense hostility towards the leadership from the members because it would mean either purging the candidates list of any opposed to the WA and/or imposing candidates on constituencies. Either way, there might not be enough people left on the candidates list. Such authoritarian procedures might well not be approved by the Party Board and even if they were, you'd be effectively expelling 60+ MPs and inviting them to form their own party under the leadership of, say, Boris. What could possibly go wrong from there?
So - short version - not only is it pointless and futile, but it verges on insane to even attempt it?
Comments
Usually pays off to lay the most right-wing option actually winning (Sweden Democrats, AfD, Le Pen, Wilders) as there are punters who put their money where their heart is.
I got my money on the results. Actually I lost £20 today, which I have put against the Left abstaining.
Article in Danish on how the Faroe Islands is the Brexiteers' saviour in getting a free trade agreement post Brexit.
While 3 options remain on the table MPs can avoid making a decision so one of the extremes has to be removed and David Green came up with a suitable amendment earlier that does just that. Granted it means that 8pm on January 29th will be stressful as one of the options disappear and the final vote becomes May's Deal or .... but at least MPs will only have binary choices to make and so be forced to make them....
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/18/larry-hogan-donald-trump-2020-election-1110535
UKIP maybe, but as electoral risks go it is an order of magnitude less than the turmoil of No Deal.
I think that the Moderates, KD's, and SD's will increasingly work together.
No Deal is talked of as 'the default', and indeed in law it is, but if we replace the law with the political imperatives of not trashing (i) the EU referendum and (ii) the British economy and (iii) the Good Friday Agreement and (iv) the regulatory coherence and integrity of the UK, then lo and behold the default becomes the Withdrawal Agreement.
I reckon that Mrs May's game is to allow MPs to try and construct an alternative plan that satisfies (i) to (iv), and has an on-the-record parliamentary majority, and is not obviously incapable of being agreed with the EU, and then if - or rather when - they prove unequal to this task, to simply say, OK, so sign on the dotted line.
And I do think it will work. Not sure how long it will take, but I think that she - and of course Michael Gove - will eventually prevail. Minority view, I fully realize, but that is my sense of things.
Since your every other post tediously harps on this theme, can you give us a list of these fascist sympathisers and appeasers of the Nazis? I'd love to be educated by an expert.
So you are a reluctant Remainer. You think the result should be implemented and blame others for not doing so.
You are an appalled Leave voter. You were made a fool. Maybe you don't feel too good about that.
So you are a reluctant Remainer. You think the result should be implemented and blame others for not doing so.
You are an appalled Leave voter. You were made a fool. Maybe you don't feel too good about that.
Showing how he lied about Turkey...
Slooooow hand clap.
*dons flame-retardant suit*
Yet another good news story for Ian Paisley junior
A lot of Tories will be looking at what their MP has done to implement the result of the Referendum. Millions.
As, indeed, will many Labour voters.
It's one of the rare areas where I am agreement with the Prime Minister. We cannot have a second referendum whose primary motive is to overturn the first so soon and even before the result of the first has been fully enacted.
There's this little notion of the "will of the people" banging round my head and the will of those who voted that June day was to leave the EU. It may not be now and it may not be in ten years time and once we've left it will be perfectly credible for any political party to take a position of seeking to rejoin the EU (though on what terms may not be so clear) but for now democracy demands (I believe) the 23/6/16 be enacted.
There's this other little notion of people taking responsibility for their actions. Democracy isn't accountability-free for either politicians or voters. If we as voters get it wrong we may blame the politicians but ultimately they are the politicians we put in power through the ballot box.
What, if anything, to make of this?
The suggestion is that nine Government ministers have told their associations to prepare for a GE. Four of them named February 28th as the date, according to this report.
If May's plan B is to request a dissolution on Monday then a two-thirds majority in Parliament does away with the need for the fourteen days' pantomime, meaning that February 28th is doable.
I was making a general point however. No-one enjoys owning up to being fooled.
Personally, if she fires the starting gun this soon I'll be very surprised - i.e. I'll believe it when I see it - but given the present crazy circumstances, who knows what's going to happen next anymore?
As usual, most voters will make their minds up on the basis of national policies and party leaders. And if the election is in 2022, they'll also do so primarily on domestic and security policy, rather than Europe.
TBF, though, an awful lot of votes on both sides are cast precisely on that basis. The parties pretend they've had X million enthusiastic supporters, but the median supporter is saying "Oh, I suppose you're better than the other lot".
But what would the Tory Manifesto offer? If it's May's Deal how would the ERG campaign?
Hey guess what, that always works. If only the rest of the world compromises to what I want we can all agree ... if you had comprehended the third paragraph you would have understood that.
https://www.csmonitor.com/1980/0717/071756.html
“When I went up there," he says, recalling his installment as Watergate prosecutor, "I thought he had been victimized by his staff. I thought he had a staff that had done things on their own. That they had not let their chief know that they were participating in these cheap doings. I thought they had been doing this on their own primarily, nd that Nixon was not aware of it. I thought he should have been aware of it, but that's a far different question from active participation in it, you know.
"What happened is, when I heard this tape recording where he was schooling [ chief of staff H. R.] Haldeman on how to lie, when I got to that part of it -- boy! I'll tell you! -- was it a new ball game as far as I was concerned! I just shuddered at the thought of what this was going to lead to."
….
"If we hadn't been successful -- a first in history -- in getting that grand jury report [which showed exactly what Nixon had been doing] into the hands of the House Judiciary Committee, by litigating it . . . well, they were sitting there absolutely bogged down.
"Then, here comes this pincer movement," Mr. Jaworski recalls, describing the effect of this legal squeeze play. "The House Judiciary Committee, armed with the evidence we had supplied them, and me coming after him for more evidence . . . I knew it would be absolutely ruinous to him if I should get it. And he knew it, too. That's why he was bucking me.”
…
…"there was no time to [bring Nixon to trial]. We would have run such a severe risk, not only of disturbing our entire case, but of gooing along a rabbit path that would have been unsuccessful, if I had tried to indict him. Because we didn't even know if he was indictable. And the worst part of it is, if we had gone along that trail, we would have spent a lot of time in court and in litigating that question and would have missed the timing which was so important to this thing.
"The only time that he could have been indicted was after he had resigned, and he was no longer a sitting President, and I didn't have the same problems…
Why do we need a GE? What will it achieve? All it will do is waste valuable preparation time for 29/3. Sheer unadulterated futility.
What might make more sense is something like this:
1. Resolve the deadlock in parliament by agreeing to sign the Withdrawal Agreement but leave open the political declaration for either becoming a softer Brexit (so Labour could support it) or a harder Brexit (so it's easier for rebel Conservatives to accept it), in both cases effectively leaving a fudge.
2. In return for this, Theresa May agrees to an election some time in the late spring/early summer, so that the parties could campaign on their favoured longer-term Brexit options.
3. ... and the Conservatives could have a new leader too before the election...
I can see some difficulties (the backstop/DUP for a starter), but is there some glimmer of a possible way out in this approach?
My guess/hope is that it is just contingency planning in case things fall apart.
I was surprised when told they also had pubs in London.
You haven't lived, man!
Next!!
I wonder what the manifesto will be?