Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner tells Huw that the PM may win the confidence vote due to the “supply and demand” of the DUP and that she has a strategy of “winding the clock down”. God help us in the event a Corbyn Government emerges from all this.
I remember a while ago Angela Rayner got very ratty with people making fun of her accent.
And I agree. You need to listen carefully to what she's actually saying. It's at that point you realise it really is vacuous rubbish.
(In fairness, she has some good ideas on Lifelong Learning, but on schools and universities she's barely saner than Cummings.)
If nothing else we have learnt that out Parliament doesn't work very well and is not all that representative of the general public.
Put to a public vote I wouldn't be surprised if the public rejected "May's Deal" by a similar margin to that in the HoC. Despite what Mrs May says, her deal is what essentially no-one voted for in June 2016.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
The electorate voted for a hung parliament, albeit unintentionally. The will-o-the-people is therefore what happened last night, i.e. no enthusiasm for Brexit. I'll get my coat!
Good try. There is an appetite for a hard brexit and to remain and indeed for a fair brexit
Not by any clear majority though. The fun thing is this. The electorate had a referendum. A small majority voted on one of the simplistic binary choices. Some months later, the electorate had a GE and failed to endorse the one party that most advocated that choice.Therefore the will-o-the-people is about as clear as a 1950s smog that occupies the average Brexiteers nostalgia.
It is even more marked the other way round. A large minority voted for the opposite in that simplistic binary choice. Some months later, at the GE, very few of them indeed voted for the only party that most advocated Remain. Therefore they can't have been really, truly eager to follow through on their choice. Can they?
I still have to pinch myself that the government is actively trying to take us out of the customs union. You can make an argument for anything, but it just seems totally deranged to leave something so advantageous.
Well quite! Not many governments do something that they know all their advisors are telling them will damage the economy, unless they are extreme socialists or their name is Robert Mugabe
So you've forgotten about Cammo/Ozzie's austerity then?
Nope, but it is not in anything like the same category, as there are many who believed it to be an economic necessity.
You truly believe that? It was all just a scam to stiff the little guy while simultaneously featherbedding the fat cats.
Time after time they are able to take enough people for mugs to get away with it.
So called austerity did not featherbed anyone.
The government support for banks helped everyone but helped those with large deposits more than current account holders.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive, thorough, and possibly ultimately inconclusive process deliberates.
Assuming no abstentions, absentees (other than noted below) or other independents backing the Government:
Tory + DUP + Sylvia Hermon + John Woodcock = 329 votes, less one deputy Speaker = 328 votes
Everyone else = 313 votes, less two Deputy speakers, and Paul Flynn (due to illness) = 310 votes
Government majority = 18 - unless I'm missing anything else...?
Woodcock will abstain I think.
Woodcock will flop?
Not sure, the voting is on the supporters of the confidence motion though so whether he abstains or votes with the government makes no odds to the betfair and SPIN markets.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
"SNP denies reports it will not back repeated motions of no confidence"
So fake news?
Of course the SNP will back any VoNC in this Government.
The entire SNP platform rests upon three legs, namely: independence is necessary; we will do the best job of standing up for Scotland; and we will fight the wicked Tories. Kick any one of the legs away and the whole thing falls over.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive, thorough, and possibly ultimately inconclusive process deliberates.
The EU won't negotiate if A50 is revoked, so hard to see how that would be of any use.
Will Grieve, Soubry and Heidi Allen be voting for May ?
Yes. Up until May's official policy becomes No Deal.
At which point they lose the party whip and find a different Conservative candidate in their constituency at the next general election.
May's policy was her Deal, is her Deal and will be her Deal.
Doesn't mean that there won't necessarily be an outright rebellion at some point, but certainly not today.
If the Conservatives split, it will be interesting to see where the fault line runs.
Will it be between 100 hard Brexiteers and the rest, or 50 anti-No Dealers and the rest?
Depends very much on circumstances: realignment (very unlikely) could lead to a mass departure of MPs; an act of desperation by the Hard Remainers (a little more likely, if the Parliamentary stalemate continues) could involve only a small handful, although they'd need at least ten MPs willing to vote down the Government to give themselves a reasonable chance of success.
It's not inconceivable that the ERG wing could peel off if May's resolve collapses, but there's no sign of that yet and besides they'd also need to be desperate before they'd contemplate breaking away: Brexit as an aim and ideology is widespread in the party membership and they have an excellent chance of seeing a sympathiser take over as leader when May finally goes.
Given the Conservative membership is 70% Leave supporting, local associations will be seeking Leave supporting candidates for future general elections.
Don't expect Wollaston and Soubry to be selecetd as candidates in future. Noticeable that Soubry trying to be visibly showing her support for the PM today.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
I think you are probably right. But as Kinabalu points out the Deal is the only real alternative. No Deal just aggravates the crisis and then you are back to the same issues (but with extra economic damage and no transition period).
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
It may happen if the risk of the Tory party being destroyed by a No Deal exit becomes too high a risk.
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive, thorough, and possibly ultimately inconclusive process deliberates.
The EU won't negotiate if A50 is revoked, so hard to see how that would be of any use.
We could at least decide on the priority of whatever red lines we would be negotiation on...
Will Grieve, Soubry and Heidi Allen be voting for May ?
Yes. Up until May's official policy becomes No Deal.
At which point they lose the party whip and find a different Conservative candidate in their constituency at the next general election.
May's policy was her Deal, is her Deal and will be her Deal.
Doesn't mean that there won't necessarily be an outright rebellion at some point, but certainly not today.
If the Conservatives split, it will be interesting to see where the fault line runs.
Will it be between 100 hard Brexiteers and the rest, or 50 anti-No Dealers and the rest?
Depends very much on circumstances: realignment (very unlikely) could lead to a mass departure of MPs; an act of desperation by the Hard Remainers (a little more likely, if the Parliamentary stalemate continues) could involve only a small handful, although they'd need at least ten MPs willing to vote down the Government to give themselves a reasonable chance of success.
It's not inconceivable that the ERG wing could peel off if May's resolve collapses, but there's no sign of that yet and besides they'd also need to be desperate before they'd contemplate breaking away: Brexit as an aim and ideology is widespread in the party membership and they have an excellent chance of seeing a sympathiser take over as leader when May finally goes.
Given the Conservative membership is 70% Leave supporting, local associations will be seeking Leave supporting candidates for future general elections.
Don't expect Wollaston and Soubry to be selecetd as candidates in future. Noticeable that Soubry trying to be visibly showing her support for the PM today.
Soubry is a basically loyal Conservative. Unlike weapons grade shits such as Duncan Smith.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
It may happen if the risk of the Tory party being destroyed by a No Deal exit becomes too high a risk.
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
Except... the Deal is the only game in town. What a huge waste of time waiting for the HoC to realise that.
"SNP denies reports it will not back repeated motions of no confidence"
So fake news?
Of course the SNP will back any VoNC in this Government.
The entire SNP platform rests upon three legs, namely: independence is necessary; we will do the best job of standing up for Scotland; and we will fight the wicked Tories. Kick any one of the legs away and the whole thing falls over.
Good on them too, get stuck right into the lying toerag scoundrels
Will Grieve, Soubry and Heidi Allen be voting for May ?
Yes. Up until May's official policy becomes No Deal.
At which point they lose the party whip and find a different Conservative candidate in their constituency at the next general election.
May's policy was her Deal, is her Deal and will be her Deal.
Doesn't mean that there won't necessarily be an outright rebellion at some point, but certainly not today.
If the Conservatives split, it will be interesting to see where the fault line runs.
Will it be between 100 hard Brexiteers and the rest, or 50 anti-No Dealers and the rest?
Depends very much on circumstances: realignment (very unlikely) could lead to a mass departure of MPs; an act of desperation by the Hard Remainers (a little more likely, if the Parliamentary stalemate continues) could involve only a small handful, although they'd need at least ten MPs willing to vote down the Government to give themselves a reasonable chance of success.
It's not inconceivable that the ERG wing could peel off if May's resolve collapses, but there's no sign of that yet and besides they'd also need to be desperate before they'd contemplate breaking away: Brexit as an aim and ideology is widespread in the party membership and they have an excellent chance of seeing a sympathiser take over as leader when May finally goes.
Given the Conservative membership is 70% Leave supporting, local associations will be seeking Leave supporting candidates for future general elections.
Don't expect Wollaston and Soubry to be selecetd as candidates in future. Noticeable that Soubry trying to be visibly showing her support for the PM today.
Soubry is a basically loyal Conservative. Unlike weapons grade shits such as Duncan Smith.
Isn't that a bit harsh.. How often do Tory Associations remove a sitting MP as a candidate....
Will Grieve, Soubry and Heidi Allen be voting for May ?
Yes. Up until May's official policy becomes No Deal.
At which point they lose the party whip and find a different Conservative candidate in their constituency at the next general election.
May's policy was her Deal, is her Deal and will be her Deal.
Doesn't mean that there won't necessarily be an outright rebellion at some point, but certainly not today.
If the Conservatives split, it will be interesting to see where the fault line runs.
Will it be between 100 hard Brexiteers and the rest, or 50 anti-No Dealers and the rest?
Depends very much on circumstances: realignment (very unlikely) could lead to a mass departure of MPs; an act of desperation by the Hard Remainers (a little more likely, if the Parliamentary stalemate continues) could involve only a small handful, although they'd need at least ten MPs willing to vote down the Government to give themselves a reasonable chance of success.
It's not inconceivable that the ERG wing could peel off if May's resolve collapses, but there's no sign of that yet and besides they'd also need to be desperate before they'd contemplate breaking away: Brexit as an aim and ideology is widespread in the party membership and they have an excellent chance of seeing a sympathiser take over as leader when May finally goes.
Given the Conservative membership is 70% Leave supporting, local associations will be seeking Leave supporting candidates for future general elections.
Don't expect Wollaston and Soubry to be selecetd as candidates in future. Noticeable that Soubry trying to be visibly showing her support for the PM today.
Soubry is a basically loyal Conservative. Unlike weapons grade shits such as Duncan Smith.
Indeed.
IDS liaised with Labour whips so to help ensure the Tory government repeatedly lost votes in the Commons.
IDS liaised with Labour whips so to help ensure the Tory government repeatedly lost votes in the Commons.
He did however liaise with Labour whips to ensure Labour won a vote in the Commons that they would otherwise have lost.
Of course, as we saw with Miliband and Syria, that might have been a mixed blessing. But given the extent to which Blair had staked his premiership on it, it would probably have sliced him off at the knees.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
It may happen if the risk of the Tory party being destroyed by a No Deal exit becomes too high a risk.
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
Except... the Deal is the only game in town. What a huge waste of time waiting for the HoC to realise that.
It may be the only deal in town but how do you get 116+ MPs to change their minds when the EU aren't going to change anything?
So what options are left on the table beyond a deal that is as dead as a Norwegian Blue, crashing out or revoking...
Thanks to JohnO, the deputy Speakers didn't vote in the 1979 vote of no confidence.
Why, did he get them drunk in the Strangers' Bar?
Well you know what Balliol boys are like.
I remember the infamous evening where he, 'Neil' formerly of this parish, and I had a boozy dinner which culminated in @JohnO falling asleep on the train and ending up in Brighton.
They've got his measure in Spain. El Pais ... says that May is not the only one in difficulty: the Labour leader ‘has received a poisoned gift from Parliament’: deciding what to do next.
I have just watched a few contributions to this 'debate'
Creasy started off shouting and just got shriller as she went on - trying to be clever and just coming off as self-absorbed
No idea who Alison Thewlis is - but she is no orator. Most of the things she ranted about were Scottish matters that her own party could have addressed but haven't as the SNP are just obsessed with one issue.
What is the point of allowing 6 hours for pointless MPs to spew pointless nonsense? There is nothing to illuminate or elucidate. It is just posturing. And it does nothing to help anyone achieve anything.
I am far from convinced that our Parliamentary system is any longer fit for purpose. It certainly isn't working. Whether that is the system or the current inhabitants, I am not yet certain. But something needs to change.
Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: Lean and mean!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
They've got his measure in Spain. El Pais ... says that May is not the only one in difficulty: the Labour leader ‘has received a poisoned gift from Parliament’: deciding what to do next.
At a time like this we should all wish we had a competent opposition leader to take over from this government. What terrible luck and judgement we all have to have ended up with the pair of them. And Vince Cable.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
It may happen if the risk of the Tory party being destroyed by a No Deal exit becomes too high a risk.
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
Except... the Deal is the only game in town. What a huge waste of time waiting for the HoC to realise that.
It may be the only deal in town but how do you get 116+ MPs to change their minds when the EU aren't going to change anything?
So what options are left on the table beyond a deal that is as dead as a Norwegian Blue, crashing out or revoking...
Strange in politics that someone who once seemed a contender for the top, like Clive Lewis, not so long after seems wholly unsuited. How people's stars rise and fall.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yeof that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
It may happen if the risk of the Tory party being destroyed by a No Deal exit becomes too high a risk.
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
Except... the Deal is the only game in town. What a huge waste of time waiting for the HoC to realise that.
It may be the only deal in town but how do you get 116+ MPs to change their minds when the EU aren't going to change anything?
So what options are left on the table beyond a deal that is as dead as a Norwegian Blue, crashing out or revoking...
Well yes of course that is the question.
We can't crash out. I can't see a straight revocation. Which leaves an extension. But for what? A second referendum? Not a GE surely. And I don't think the backstop is going anywhere. So that is the Deal.
Add in a (non permanent) CU to the backstop for the whole of GBNI and you're there.
I have just watched a few contributions to this 'debate'
Creasy started off shouting and just got shriller as she went on - trying to be clever and just coming off as self-absorbed
No idea who Alison Thewlis is - but she is no orator. Most of the things she ranted about were Scottish matters that her own party could have addressed but haven't as the SNP are just obsessed with one issue.
What is the point of allowing 6 hours for pointless MPs to spew pointless nonsense? There is nothing to illuminate or elucidate. It is just posturing. And it does nothing to help anyone achieve anything.
I am far from convinced that our Parliamentary system is any longer fit for purpose. It certainly isn't working. Whether that is the system or the current inhabitants, I am not yet certain. But something needs to change.
I'm depressed by many recent debates too, but I rather think that condemning the system itself as not fit for purpose is a proportionate reaction. Ultimately the present problem is MPs being brutally divided on the most critical issue of the day. Aspects of our system might well aggravate problems we have, but I don't see much to suggest the system itself is fundamentally flawed.
I have just watched a few contributions to this 'debate'
Creasy started off shouting and just got shriller as she went on - trying to be clever and just coming off as self-absorbed
No idea who Alison Thewlis is - but she is no orator. Most of the things she ranted about were Scottish matters that her own party could have addressed but haven't as the SNP are just obsessed with one issue.
What is the point of allowing 6 hours for pointless MPs to spew pointless nonsense? There is nothing to illuminate or elucidate. It is just posturing. And it does nothing to help anyone achieve anything.
I am far from convinced that our Parliamentary system is any longer fit for purpose. It certainly isn't working. Whether that is the system or the current inhabitants, I am not yet certain. But something needs to change.
Unless you're a hard brexiter if you voted for Art 50 then you simply must vote through the Withdrawal agreement. It's that simple really.
If there's a second referendum, Leave just has to play this on loop for six weeks until the vote.
To be fair, I think we are overly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing, regardless of Brexit. The almost routine invocations of Operation Stack in the years leading up to it demonstrated that.
Our resilience in other port and airport infrastructure needs to be diversified and built up.
Is rushing a referendum in 8 days a good idea? Practical considerations are secondary I would imagine. Particularly given the whinges that people did not know what they were voting for last time.
I have just watched a few contributions to this 'debate'
Creasy started off shouting and just got shriller as she went on - trying to be clever and just coming off as self-absorbed
No idea who Alison Thewlis is - but she is no orator. Most of the things she ranted about were Scottish matters that her own party could have addressed but haven't as the SNP are just obsessed with one issue.
What is the point of allowing 6 hours for pointless MPs to spew pointless nonsense? There is nothing to illuminate or elucidate. It is just posturing. And it does nothing to help anyone achieve anything.
I am far from convinced that our Parliamentary system is any longer fit for purpose. It certainly isn't working. Whether that is the system or the current inhabitants, I am not yet certain. But something needs to change.
I'm depressed by many recent debates too, but I rather think that condemning the system itself as not fit for purpose is a proportionate reaction. Ultimately the present problem is MPs being brutally divided on the most critical issue of the day. Aspects of our system might well aggravate problems we have, but I don't see much to suggest the system itself is fundamentally flawed.
It's flawed because Parliament isn't representative and because so many useless MPs sit with jobs for life in safe seats. Not to mention the Lords.
Thanks to JohnO, the deputy Speakers didn't vote in the 1979 vote of no confidence.
Why, did he get them drunk in the Strangers' Bar?
Well you know what Balliol boys are like.
I remember the infamous evening where he, 'Neil' formerly of this parish, and I had a boozy dinner which culminated in @JohnO falling asleep on the train and ending up in Brighton.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
I think you are probably right. But as Kinabalu points out the Deal is the only real alternative. No Deal just aggravates the crisis and then you are back to the same issues (but with extra economic damage and no transition period).
Critics have a point when they blame Lisbon, A50 and EU politics for the hard rule sequencing of the talks, which are borderline idiotic, but we are where we are.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
It may happen if the risk of the Tory party being destroyed by a No Deal exit becomes too high a risk.
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
Except... the Deal is the only game in town. What a huge waste of time waiting for the HoC to realise that.
It may be the only deal in town but how do you get 116+ MPs to change their minds when the EU aren't going to change anything?
So what options are left on the table beyond a deal that is as dead as a Norwegian Blue, crashing out or revoking...
Norwegian Blue-Plus
I see no point in BINO. If that was on the table versus Remain, I’d spoil my ballet.
I wouldn't expect a Deal/Remain referendum to produce a landslide of that kind for Remain. If compelled to back a winner I would indeed pick Remain, but as the only form of Leave possible within that constrained choice it might do better than most people expect.
I would be a buyer in reckless size of Remain at 60 in that (no) contest. Ironically yesterday's brutal and very public rogering of the Deal renders it even less likely to ever see the light of day on a ballot paper.
Not that anything is, IMO, and thank heaven for that. Putting aside the intractable problems of question and timing etc, I do not think there is the general will or, you know, energy to go through all of that rigmarole again.
No, Parliament have to sort this, and I am confident that they will. They just need time & space for some rumbustious activity, some votes, some meetings, some speeches, and then they will ratify the Treaty.
I'm not mad at them for delaying the inevitable. It is perfectly understandable. Mrs May has been extremely insular and secretive during the Brexit process and there is now pent up tension that has to be released. It's healthy.
For the third time of (noone) asking, I will say the long grass is looking greener. Royal Commissions is how the British political class deals with intractable and embarrassing problems. Set up a Royal Commission to establish the best way to meet all stakeholder requirements, Revoke Article 50 and wait for several years while the expensive process deliberates.
That would be worth it just to see the froth explosion. The gammons would shift into beetroots, and then aubergines.
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
It may happen if the risk of the Tory party being destroyed by a No Deal exit becomes too high a risk.
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
Except... the Deal is the only game in town. What a huge waste of time waiting for the HoC to realise that.
It may be the only deal in town but how do you get 116+ MPs to change their minds when the EU aren't going to change anything?
So what options are left on the table beyond a deal that is as dead as a Norwegian Blue, crashing out or revoking...
Norwegian Blue-Plus
I see no point in BINO. If that was on the table versus Remain, I’d spoil my ballet.
If there's a second referendum, Leave just has to play this on loop for six weeks until the vote.
Is that a Scottish once-in-a-generation-referendum or a UK once-in-a-generation-referendum Dave?
Well, if you want silliness just look at this:
I would favour two referendums held a couple of weeks apart, the first asking voters whether they wished to leave or remain. If leave won, the second referendum would seek a verdict on the terms of departure.
Professor Bogdanor is an Oxford don and probably a bit dim, but surely even he must have noticed the reason we're in this mess is we've already HAD the first of those?
Comments
And I agree. You need to listen carefully to what she's actually saying. It's at that point you realise it really is vacuous rubbish.
(In fairness, she has some good ideas on Lifelong Learning, but on schools and universities she's barely saner than Cummings.)
The government support for banks helped everyone but helped those with large deposits more than current account holders.
You're missing two tellers for each side.
Following your logic should be 326 - 308 though if Flynn/Woodcock vote as you expect them to.
https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1085589013333979137/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1085589013333979137&ref_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/46874049
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTv5ckMe_2M
Not going to happen though, too many people lashed to their particular masts to facilitate it.
The entire SNP platform rests upon three legs, namely: independence is necessary; we will do the best job of standing up for Scotland; and we will fight the wicked Tories. Kick any one of the legs away and the whole thing falls over.
Don't expect Wollaston and Soubry to be selecetd as candidates in future. Noticeable that Soubry trying to be visibly showing her support for the PM today.
And after that it will just be 649 of them doing it?
As I said earlier the 2 options are revoke or No Deal - given that the Deal has been so comprehensively rejected I can see zero other options available...
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085599237444956162
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085599241404383238
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085599245208555524
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085599248463233024
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085599251789500416
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085599255354638336
IDS liaised with Labour whips so to help ensure the Tory government repeatedly lost votes in the Commons.
310-319 -56.24
320-329 -69.80
Any other +12.40
I also have a sell of MPs on SPIN at 311 at £1 per MP.
Of course, as we saw with Miliband and Syria, that might have been a mixed blessing. But given the extent to which Blair had staked his premiership on it, it would probably have sliced him off at the knees.
So what options are left on the table beyond a deal that is as dead as a Norwegian Blue, crashing out or revoking...
(He checked the records that the precedent is for Deputy Speakers to not vote in Confidence/No Confidence votes)
That'll be a vote of no confidence in Corbyn himself.
El Pais ... says that May is not the only one in difficulty: the Labour leader ‘has received a poisoned gift from Parliament’: deciding what to do next.
Creasy started off shouting and just got shriller as she went on - trying to be clever and just coming off as self-absorbed
No idea who Alison Thewlis is - but she is no orator. Most of the things she ranted about were Scottish matters that her own party could have addressed but haven't as the SNP are just obsessed with one issue.
What is the point of allowing 6 hours for pointless MPs to spew pointless nonsense? There is nothing to illuminate or elucidate. It is just posturing. And it does nothing to help anyone achieve anything.
I am far from convinced that our Parliamentary system is any longer fit for purpose. It certainly isn't working. Whether that is the system or the current inhabitants, I am not yet certain. But something needs to change.
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: Lean and mean!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
If there's a second referendum, Leave just has to play this on loop for six weeks until the vote.
We can't crash out. I can't see a straight revocation. Which leaves an extension. But for what? A second referendum? Not a GE surely. And I don't think the backstop is going anywhere. So that is the Deal.
Add in a (non permanent) CU to the backstop for the whole of GBNI and you're there.
It's only the withdrawal agreement after all.
Our resilience in other port and airport infrastructure needs to be diversified and built up.
Oh the lols.
I would favour two referendums held a couple of weeks apart, the first asking voters whether they wished to leave or remain. If leave won, the second referendum would seek a verdict on the terms of departure.
Professor Bogdanor is an Oxford don and probably a bit dim, but surely even he must have noticed the reason we're in this mess is we've already HAD the first of those?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/23/peoples-vote-brexit-mps-second-referendum
Who in their right mind would want Corbyn anywhere near power?
FFS
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199293/cmhansrd/1993-07-23/Debate-13.html (Previous/Next links at the top and bottom to navigate through)