If this is defeated would it prevent another bill revoking A50 being introduced during this parliament? *worried face*
I understood that the 10 Minute Rule bill was traditionally the domain of the attention-seeker.
Sounds like it might be fake news anyway.
In fairness Remain MPs in the HoC should probably leave it to Dominic Grieve to manage the legislative defeat of No Deal - he seems to be the only one capable of getting anything through parliement at the moment.
It will be interesting to see how it is whipped if it is an A50 revocation or People's Vote Bill. (Not that such a Bill would stand a chance of becoming law.)
Given the whip's previous effectiveness, they'll probably make the wrong conclusion, discipline the wrong people, and then leak the entire shambles to the press.
So much for respecting the votes of the 117 and promising to listen to their concerns too. May is a disgrace.
If there is any vindictiveness from the whips or efforts to find out who these 12 were to punish them then this 100% validates the "payroll vote" moans from the ERG morons.
Way to snatch a moral defeat from the jaws of victory. Just accept it was a secret ballot, you won, move on!
Doesn’t it show their comments regarding the payroll vote were total bollocks?
No, if it is correct that only 12 on the payroll vote had no confidence in May, it follows that a majority of her backbenchers had no confidence in her. And that would vindicate the ERG's claims.
If this is defeated would it prevent another bill revoking A50 being introduced during this parliament? *worried face*
I understood that the 10 Minute Rule bill was traditionally the domain of the attention-seeker.
No, they're actually useful. There is no other mechanism in the main sessions of Parliament to enable a backbencher to set out a case for a specific proposal in detail. And you can force a vote if you wish. I did that with Roger Casale over ID cards, which I favour - he was unsure but agreed to put the case against (we agreed there were pros and cons) so we'd get a vote. He "won" by about 180 to 120 (from memory), though ironically I got the LibDem spokesman in support.
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
We hold a model in our heads of how the world works, and are constantly surprised when it turns out differently. Leaving aside the animus that some people in the Republic feel towards the UK, the state itself is not an ally of the UK: it's not in NATO, it's neutral (well, non-aligned: not the same thing), does not always vote for us in international fora and occasionally votes against us.
The UK and the Republic have for decades colluded in the belief that there's an overlap: the UK refuses to refer to Ireland as foreign, both countries refuse to erect a hard border, we may pass freely from one to the other. I've referred to this as "Ireland pretends to be independent and the UK pretends it isn't". That collusion could survive when we were in the EU but it will be more difficult hereafter, and possibly impossible.
I note yesterday that you suggested codominion of Northern Ireland between the UK and Ireland. You may wish to read up on Good Friday Agreement, which made some faltering steps towards this.
Ireland is the country in the world we are closest to. Closer than Canada, Australia, even New Zealand. Immeasurably closer than America. IIRC, some 10% of (mainland) Brits qualify for Irish citizenship. The Irish may not be our allies, they are our friends though, and they are our kin.
Even though he is voting down the WA in its current form, Stephen Kinnock sounded like she had an olive branch across the house for May should she take it. His proposal to sort the FTA into the broad principles of Norway+ sounded sensible to me given where we are.
The UK and the Republic have for decades colluded in the belief that there's an overlap: the UK refuses to refer to Ireland as foreign, both countries refuse to erect a hard border, we may pass freely from one to the other. I've referred to this as "Ireland pretends to be independent and the UK pretends it isn't". That collusion could survive when we were in the EU but it will be more difficult hereafter, and possibly impossible.
If Brexit has revealed anything to the British, it's that Ireland wasn't pretending.
PS - There very much was a hard border before the EU single market.
A bit of a daft comment. There was a border after the single market as well. The single market started in 1993. The last border checks didn't go until 2005. And in 2008 the Irish and British governments started talks aimed at reinstating border controls electronically.
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
We hold a model in our heads of how the world works, and are constantly surprised when it turns out differently. Leaving aside the animus that some people in the Republic feel towards the UK, the state itself is not an ally of the UK: it's not in NATO, it's neutral (well, non-aligned: not the same thing), does not always vote for us in international fora and occasionally votes against us.
The UK and the Republic have for decades colluded in the belief that there's an overlap: the UK refuses to refer to Ireland as foreign, both countries refuse to erect a hard border, we may pass freely from one to the other. I've referred to this as "Ireland pretends to be independent and the UK pretends it isn't". That collusion could survive when we were in the EU but it will be more difficult hereafter, and possibly impossible.
I note yesterday that you suggested codominion of Northern Ireland between the UK and Ireland. You may wish to read up on Good Friday Agreement, which made some faltering steps towards this.
Ireland is the country in the world we are closest to. Closer than Canada, Australia, even New Zealand. Immeasurably closer than America. IIRC, some 10% of (mainland) Brits qualify for Irish citizenship. The Irish may not be our allies, they are our friends though, and they are our kin.
Says you, and you're not all wrong. But it is still a country, some of whose citizens, perhaps a majority, want independence for the island from the UK.
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?
Why is there the assumption that the second referendum doesn't have WTO on the ballot paper?
Because no sane politician or sensible government would or could afford to put it forward.
But Leave Means Leave (or some other group) will take the electoral commission to court as soon as the question is revealed without WTO Brexit on the ballot?
What if the "enemies of the people" side with the people and say WTO must be on the ballot?
Would't that be delicious.
Parliament decides what the referendum choice is; the Commission just confirms the wording of the statements on offer.
OK so Leave Means Leave will take the electoral commission AND the government to court to get No Deal on the ballot.
You are simply providing further illustration of not living in the real world.
GIN doesn’t like or understand Parliamentary sovereignty.
Is it any wonder , they are just a herd of braying donkeys, led by the nose by unscrupulous characters like May. It is a cesspit of self interest and pocket stuffing.
If there is any vindictiveness from the whips or efforts to find out who these 12 were to punish them then this 100% validates the "payroll vote" moans from the ERG morons.
Way to snatch a moral defeat from the jaws of victory. Just accept it was a secret ballot, you won, move on!
Doesn’t it show their comments regarding the payroll vote were total bollocks?
No, if it is correct that only 12 on the payroll vote had no confidence in May, it follows that a majority of her backbenchers had no confidence in her. And that would vindicate the ERG's claims.
It's at least 12, not at most... and the payroll is far more than just ministers.
The sooner that Corbyn does this, the better in my view. He's shown no leadership at all this last week (Everyone on here knew this) but for the first time ever, my 'Labour till I die' family (I live in Bootle - everyone is Labour till they die) have actually woken up and asked why isn't Corbyn doing something.
Corbyn - likes campaigning and ranting and raving, but when it is finally time to step up and DO something, he's shown up as being completely unable/unwilling to.
lol bloodshed ? Where ? I was on the island a fortnight ago - nothing. Really its crazy ramping ike this which more likely to bring out the guns than just letting the sleeping dogs lie.
Your personal history in Northern Ireland and frequent visits do not necessarily give you insight into NI and even less into the Republic, especially the inner workings of the State. I value your insights (and subsequent articles) when derived from personal experience but that experience is anecdotal and by necessity incomplete.
and yet having relatives both sides of the border , reading Irish newspapers every day and having grown up in Ireland Ill wager I have more insights than most commenting on Irish affairs.
Even though he is voting down the WA in its current form, Stephen Kinnock sounded like she had an olive branch across the house for May should she take it. His proposal to sort the FTA into the broad principles of Norway+ sounded sensible to me given where we are.
Norway+ is quite the worst possible outcome, following a vote to leave the EU. Sort of stilll in the EU, but with neither a voice nor an Article 50 mechanism available to properly leave. And membership fees would probably cost about the same as remaining.
Once the voters fully understand what it means, any Tory with a majority under 10k that goes along with it would risk losing their seat.
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
The only demand made by the British people was to leave.
And now they have new demands.
Why do you hate democracy?
Democracy is letting people make a choice and then enacting that choice. Not letting people make a choice and then telling them to choose again because you don't like how they chose.
Apparently there is a warning of yellow snow this weekend.
I may have that slightly wrong...
There is an amber warning for snow over the Grampians (and perhaps nearby) but the greater worry is the amber warning for ice (freezing rain) further south.
The only demand made by the British people was to leave.
And now they have new demands.
Why do you hate democracy?
When we have a month of polling with Leave consistently below 40% I'll accept the public have changed their mind. Peter Kellner and his EU gold plated wife are always keen to advertise polls supporting their case.
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
We hold a model in our heads of how the world works, and are constantly surprised when it turns out differently. Leaving aside the animus that some people in the Republic feel towards the UK, the state itself is not an ally of the UK: it's not in NATO, it's neutral (well, non-aligned: not the same thing), does not always vote for us in international fora and occasionally votes against us.
The UK and the Republic have for decades colluded in the belief that there's an overlap: the UK refuses to refer to Ireland as foreign, both countries refuse to erect a hard border, we may pass freely from one to the other. I've referred to this as "Ireland pretends to be independent and the UK pretends it isn't". That collusion could survive when we were in the EU but it will be more difficult hereafter, and possibly impossible.
I note yesterday that you suggested codominion of Northern Ireland between the UK and Ireland. You may wish to read up on Good Friday Agreement, which made some faltering steps towards this.
Ireland is the country in the world we are closest to. Closer than Canada, Australia, even New Zealand. Immeasurably closer than America. IIRC, some 10% of (mainland) Brits qualify for Irish citizenship. The Irish may not be our allies, they are our friends though, and they are our kin.
I don't know about kin: they don't send me birthday cards and they weren't at my grandparents' funerals (although we have oddly enough since then developed one or two Irish branches of the viewcode family tree - it's a big family) .
And as for friends: I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily true at the State level. This is reflected in the oddest ways: I don't think officials of the Republic attend British Royal Weddings, for example. We have close relationships thru necessity and there are some intra- and supra-governmental bodies, but that's about as far as it goes
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
Would that be "tariff income" in our brave new global free trade world?
No, the tariff income on imports of goods from the EU that initially will be roughly twice as much as that which the EU get from the UK. The UK could choose to waive tariffs where it might suit us to do so it, for example on imports of car parts for assembly in UK plants. Given the huge scale of the trade imbalance, the UK could even afford to offer our exporters to the EU a rebate to offset the tariffs they themselves face, and still be left with a net receipt to the Exchequer to add to the £39bn saved.
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
She’s a loser.
A confidence vote in TM is not required - a letter from 150-200 Con MPs telling her that she's had her shot and failed would bring her down.
She played them all for fools - pretending she had 2 jacks when in reality it was 7-2 off suite.
Democracy is letting people make a choice and then enacting that choice. Not letting people make a choice and then telling them to choose again because you don't like how they chose.
Democracy is letting people make a choice
Timing is irrelevant.
If after a general election, no government can be formed, it would be undemocratic (according to you) to hold another vote.
That's obviously bollocks.
In this case we have tried to implement Brexit. It has not proven possible (for various degrees of possible). It would not be undemocratic to ask the people for a view
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?
Why is there the assumption that the second referendum doesn't have WTO on the ballot paper?
Because no sane politician or sensible government would or could afford to put it forward.
But Leave Means Leave (or some other group) will take the electoral commission to court as soon as the question is revealed without WTO Brexit on the ballot?
What if the "enemies of the people" side with the people and say WTO must be on the ballot?
Would't that be delicious.
Parliament decides what the referendum choice is; the Commission just confirms the wording of the statements on offer.
OK so Leave Means Leave will take the electoral commission AND the government to court to get No Deal on the ballot.
You are simply providing further illustration of not living in the real world.
GIN doesn’t like or understand Parliamentary sovereignty.
Is it any wonder , they are just a herd of braying donkeys, led by the nose by unscrupulous characters like May. It is a cesspit of self interest and pocket stuffing.
I don't know about kin: they don't send me birthday cards and they weren't at my grandparents' funerals (although we have oddly enough since then developed one or two Irish branches of the viewcode family tree - it's a big family) .
And as for friends: I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily true at the State level. This is reflected in the oddest ways: I don't think officials of the Republic attend British Royal Weddings, for example. We have close relationships thru necessity and there are some intra- and supra-governmental bodies, but that's about as far as it goes
Yes, it's all very sentimental. Someone below said we told the EU to fuck off, which is probably exaggerating it just a tad. The Irish told us in no uncertain terms to fuck off.
lol bloodshed ? Where ? I was on the island a fortnight ago - nothing. Really its crazy ramping ike this which more likely to bring out the guns than just letting the sleeping dogs lie.
Your personal history in Northern Ireland and frequent visits do not necessarily give you insight into NI and even less into the Republic, especially the inner workings of the State. I value your insights (and subsequent articles) when derived from personal experience but that experience is anecdotal and by necessity incomplete.
and yet having relatives both sides of the border , reading Irish newspapers every day and having grown up in Ireland Ill wager I have more insights than most commenting on Irish affairs.
Possibly: it's not a bad argument. But you were surprised at Varadkar, and I was not.
The sooner that Corbyn does this, the better in my view. He's shown no leadership at all this last week (Everyone on here knew this) but for the first time ever, my 'Labour till I die' family (I live in Bootle - everyone is Labour till they die) have actually woken up and asked why isn't Corbyn doing something.
Corbyn - likes campaigning and ranting and raving, but when it is finally time to step up and DO something, he's shown up as being completely unable/unwilling to.
Step up , lose, look like a fool.
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it."
Democracy is letting people make a choice and then enacting that choice. Not letting people make a choice and then telling them to choose again because you don't like how they chose.
Democracy is letting people make a choice
Timing is irrelevant.
If after a general election, no government can be formed, it would be undemocratic (according to you) to hold another vote.
That's obviously bollocks.
In this case we have tried to implement Brexit. It has not proven possible (for various degrees of possible). It would not be undemocratic to ask the people for a view
Poor example. We don't vote for a Government we vote for an individual MP. So the actual equivalent would be voting for someone to be MP and then being told you had to vote again until you chose his opponent.
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
Poor example. We don't vote for a Government we vote for an individual MP. So the actual equivalent would be voting for someone to be MP and then being told you had to vote again until you chose his opponent.
But in that example if we voted again (which would be democratic) you may well choose his opponent.
The only demand made by the British people was to leave.
And now they have new demands.
Why do you hate democracy?
Democracy is letting people make a choice and then enacting that choice. Not letting people make a choice and then telling them to choose again because you don't like how they chose.
It is quite obvious that Brexit isn't going to be the walk in the park that we were promised, on the basis of German car manufacturers' desperation for customers among other reasons, and entirely reasonable that people are asked whether they wish to proceed now that we know the details of the deal. You disagree, but none of us on this forum have any significant influence over the matter, so let's concentrate on what we think will happen rather than tirelessly dumping the same point into the same forum, eh?
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
It is only democratic if you then actually act upon it. Not if you keep asking the same question again and again until you get the answer you want.
none of us on this forum have any significant influence over the matter, so let's concentrate on what we think will happen rather than tirelessly dumping the same point into the same forum, eh?
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
It is only democratic if you then actually act upon it. Not if you keep asking the same question again and again until you get the answer you want.
But to be fair May has tried to act upon it - it's the ERG loons who have scuppered it.
I don't know about kin: they don't send me birthday cards and they weren't at my grandparents' funerals (although we have oddly enough since then developed one or two Irish branches of the viewcode family tree - it's a big family) .
And as for friends: I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily true at the State level. This is reflected in the oddest ways: I don't think officials of the Republic attend British Royal Weddings, for example. We have close relationships thru necessity and there are some intra- and supra-governmental bodies, but that's about as far as it goes
Yes, it's all very sentimental. Someone below said we told the EU to fuck off, which is probably exaggerating it just a tad. The Irish told us in no uncertain terms to fuck off.
Yes - its the equivalent of 2 neighbours arguing over a boundary issue.
One side - the EU has sent us a bill for damages - we are preparing to invite them over for a barbeque and asking them how much it will cost for them to attend.
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
The problem is unless Remain obtain at least 17.4m votes in a second ref then Leavers won't accept it's more valid than the original one and why should they>and the internecine conflict will continue
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
Putting aside her incompetence and the fact that the choices she herself made led her to the political dead end she finds herself in, in this process she has been exposed as an utterly deceitful woman who works behind her ministerial colleagues backs and whose words of assurance are worthless.
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
It is only democratic if you then actually act upon it. Not if you keep asking the same question again and again until you get the answer you want.
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy. Not something our country is good at handling. And hence we are where we are. How would you break the deadlock and please don't embarrass yourself by including either of the words "no" or "deal" in your answer.
Poor example. We don't vote for a Government we vote for an individual MP. So the actual equivalent would be voting for someone to be MP and then being told you had to vote again until you chose his opponent.
But in that example if we voted again (which would be democratic) you may well choose his opponent.
Isn't democracy great?
Not if we keep getting told we have made the wrong choice and have to vote again and again. You really don't get this democracy thing do you.
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
The problem is unless Remain obtain at least 17.4m votes in a second ref then Leavers won't accept it's more valid than the original one and why should they>and the internecine conflict will continue
Even if Remain did get more what's to stop Leavers pushing to make it best out of 3?
The problem is unless Remain obtain at least 17.4m votes in a second ref then Leavers won't accept it's more valid than the original one and why should they>and the internecine conflict will continue
I don't know about kin: they don't send me birthday cards and they weren't at my grandparents' funerals (although we have oddly enough since then developed one or two Irish branches of the viewcode family tree - it's a big family) .
And as for friends: I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily true at the State level. This is reflected in the oddest ways: I don't think officials of the Republic attend British Royal Weddings, for example. We have close relationships thru necessity and there are some intra- and supra-governmental bodies, but that's about as far as it goes
Yes, it's all very sentimental. Someone below said we told the EU to fuck off, which is probably exaggerating it just a tad. The Irish told us in no uncertain terms to fuck off.
No they haven’t. There is incomprehension at the monumental act of self harm and the delusions of grandeur. There is delight that businesses are abandoning Britain for another common law English speaking jurisdiction which remains in the EU. But they have not told us to “fuck off”.
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
It is only democratic if you then actually act upon it. Not if you keep asking the same question again and again until you get the answer you want.
But to be fair May has tried to act upon it - it's the ERG loons who have scuppered it.
They aren't the only ones who aren't supporting the deal.
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
Putting aside her incompetence and the fact that the choices she herself made led her to the political dead end she finds herself in, in this process she has been exposed as an utterly deceitful woman who works behind her ministerial colleagues backs and whose words of assurance are worthless.
^^^^ this
That 200 of her MPs continue to put up with this approach is damning.
Perhaps Corbyn wouldn't be the worst option after all.
lol bloodshed ? Where ? I was on the island a fortnight ago - nothing. Really its crazy ramping ike this which more likely to bring out the guns than just letting the sleeping dogs lie.
Your personal history in Northern Ireland and frequent visits do not necessarily give you insight into NI and even less into the Republic, especially the inner workings of the State. I value your insights (and subsequent articles) when derived from personal experience but that experience is anecdotal and by necessity incomplete.
and yet having relatives both sides of the border , reading Irish newspapers every day and having grown up in Ireland Ill wager I have more insights than most commenting on Irish affairs.
Alan , you cannot imagine you know more than the PB Bore armchair experts here, a lifetime in London means they know it all and the rest they can google, your real experience and background is nothing in comparison.
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
Putting aside her incompetence and the fact that the choices she herself made led her to the political dead end she finds herself in, in this process she has been exposed as an utterly deceitful woman who works behind her ministerial colleagues backs and whose words of assurance are worthless.
Did you skip over my "seen as"? I maintain the public has a broadly positive view of her, still. A tiny proportion of the public post on ConHome. Or even here.
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
It is only democratic if you then actually act upon it. Not if you keep asking the same question again and again until you get the answer you want.
But to be fair May has tried to act upon it - it's the ERG loons who have scuppered it.
She has paid lip service to it for her own ends and in doing so made a dogs breakfast of it and left us high and dry, even with the kickings she has had, she steadfastly sticks to her course.
Not if we keep getting told we have made the wrong choice and have to vote again and again. You really don't get this democracy thing do you.
Nobody is being told they made the wrong choice.
They are (potentially) being offered another choice.
You really don't get this democracy thing do you?
Well, one person is being told they made the wrong choice. David Cameron. He designed the process of "vote on a vague thing, then we'll fill in the blanks and you'll have to suck it up even if you think what we came up with is worse than not doing it at all".
Given the whip's previous effectiveness, they'll probably make the wrong conclusion, discipline the wrong people, and then leak the entire shambles to the press.
The 1922 committee is a backbencher's body. Can they change their own rules - to remove the 12 month moratorium on leadership votes? Innocent face.
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
Just like Remoaners here they only like democracy when they win.
Typical Brexit-o-loon. Only so much democracy they can bear.
You have no concept of what democracy actually means. Hence your support for voting again and again until you get the answer you want.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Dolt. I happen to think a second referendum would be a bad idea. But I also find it difficult to label a referendum ("n: a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision") as not democratic.
It is only democratic if you then actually act upon it. Not if you keep asking the same question again and again until you get the answer you want.
But to be fair May has tried to act upon it - it's the ERG loons who have scuppered it.
They aren't the only ones who aren't supporting the deal.
The last time I checked, they all take the government whip.
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the Common e get along tariff and see who, if anyone, wants a trade deal.
The £ 39 bn we save from a no deal will help as will the tariff income from U.K. imports andthe boost to fishing.
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
Putting aside her incompetence and the fact that the choices she herself made led her to the political dead end she finds herself in, in this process she has been exposed as an utterly deceitful woman who works behind her ministerial colleagues backs and whose words of assurance are worthless.
Did you skip over my "seen as"? I maintain the public has a broadly positive view of her, still. A tiny proportion of the public post on ConHome. Or even here.
You maintain wrongly. Most of the public have seen through her:
"the Prime Minister has seen her net favourability score knocked down from -25 to -31, with only 28% of people now saying that they have a favourable view of her and 59% now expressing a negative view. This study was conducted over Monday and Tuesday of this week - just after it was announced that the vote on the deal would be delayed"
The Prime Minister trashed her brand when she pulled the meaningful vote. Till then she had looked like a woman doggedly pursuing the instruction that the country had given her as best she could. After then she looked like a woman trying to do anything to cling to power. I'm expecting her personal ratings to have taken a very sharp knock.
We need to deregulate when we’re out, cut taxes such as corporation tax, boost investment and infrastructure, frame a proper immigration policy, set tariffs to suit us rather than be foisted by the
Looks like ROI will get a hard border by default. That’s a shame. As 80% of their EU trade passes through Britain they’ll have a few problems.
The problem with this is that no deal almost certainly leads to Corbyn.
Don't think he will be following that approach.....
We’ll get Corbyn anyway now. Keeping May in place ensures that.
May is more popular than the alternatives though - and we have time for a transition ahead of the next GE if the Govt doesn't implode.
Only because of name recognition. She blew a 20% lead in the polls last time and despite problems with anti semitism and misogyny, Labour are still level in the polls. I can’t see anyone being worse than May except maybe Johnson.
No. She may be a relatively pedestrian and unsophisticated politician, but she is seen as a decent woman who is in a horrible position as a result of a referendum she didn't support and a bunch of utterly incalcitrant colleagues that she didn't choose. If she gets pitched out of her job unceremoniously, that will be the moment when the polls turn.
Putting aside her incompetence and the fact that the choices she herself made led her to the political dead end she finds herself in, in this process she has been exposed as an utterly deceitful woman who works behind her ministerial colleagues backs and whose words of assurance are worthless.
Did you skip over my "seen as"? I maintain the public has a broadly positive view of her, still. A tiny proportion of the public post on ConHome. Or even here.
You maintain wrongly. Most of the public have seen through her:
"the Prime Minister has seen her net favourability score knocked down from -25 to -31, with only 28% of people now saying that they have a favourable view of her and 59% now expressing a negative view. This study was conducted over Monday and Tuesday of this week - just after it was announced that the vote on the deal would be delayed"
What is it with the EU demanding that countries vote until they give the right answer?
God, I'm sick of this bollocks from the Brexiteers.
If we were in a situation where there had been no effort made to enact the referendum result, it was still a short time since then, and there was any prospect of one side holding a third, fourth, fifth, or whatever number referendum until the "right" result was achieved, I'd be sympathetic.
None of those is true.
It's been longer than the interval between the last two General Elections, all we've seemed to do since 2016 has been bloody Brexiting (ignoring the paranoia about May deliberately intending to derail Brexit and implicitly being willing to sacrifice the Conservative Party to do so), and if a referendum results in "Sign the Deal", it's damned well over. Once the Withdrawal Agreement is signed, we cease to be an EU member.
So what's the route to "voting until we give the right answer" if the Deal wins? If the Deal wins, It's over and out
The Leavers can make a decent case - and I'd be sympathetic to a four-way referendum after the Deal is signed, to be honest, as well - but this line that implies that a win for the Deal would still be ignored afterwards is such steaming dogshite that it damages the case.
If we have a referendum on the result, it'd be a good three years after the original one, with all the work being completed, but it looks pretty shitty compared to all the promises thanks to the campaign being such as to be seemingly designed to win the battle while losing the war, due to promising so much mutually inconsistent stuff (well done, Dominic Cummings - you've poisoned your own well, and it looks very much to me like we're going to leave the EU while the people overall actually want us to stay in, damaged us economically for the long term, and divided the country in such a way that we still can't see a prospect of it healing. And he thinks he's some kind of genius?). The vote wasn't ignored, it was never ignored, it was never going to be ignored, and we'll be reaping the crop from it whatever happens for bloody ages.
I've tried to be as objective as possible (seeing that I was originally pro-Leave before the campaign, it's actually still a default position for me), but I'm sick and tired of tripe like this coming up.
Comments
It will be interesting to see how it is whipped if it is an A50 revocation or People's Vote Bill. (Not that such a Bill would stand a chance of becoming law.)
They are however open to the possibility that UK politicians will demand it as the only way out of the current omnishambles
I know May would hate No Deal, but I don't think she'll see that as a risk, once Remainers are forced to choose.
Not sure if she'll get it through the commons unamended though.
I may have that slightly wrong...
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/fish-don-t-do-borders-life-on-the-irish-sea-after-a-hard-brexit-1.3729032
Why do you hate democracy?
He's shown no leadership at all this last week (Everyone on here knew this) but for the first time ever, my 'Labour till I die' family (I live in Bootle - everyone is Labour till they die) have actually woken up and asked why isn't Corbyn doing something.
Corbyn - likes campaigning and ranting and raving, but when it is finally time to step up and DO something, he's shown up as being completely unable/unwilling to.
At least Barnesian was honest when he said he didn't like democracy. You are just a hypocrite.
Once the voters fully understand what it means, any Tory with a majority under 10k that goes along with it would risk losing their seat.
We could have a vote.
Of the people.
Just needs a catchy name
Stay safe folks.
And as for friends: I'm pretty sure that's not necessarily true at the State level. This is reflected in the oddest ways: I don't think officials of the Republic attend British Royal Weddings, for example. We have close relationships thru necessity and there are some intra- and supra-governmental bodies, but that's about as far as it goes
She played them all for fools - pretending she had 2 jacks when in reality it was 7-2 off suite.
Timing is irrelevant.
If after a general election, no government can be formed, it would be undemocratic (according to you) to hold another vote.
That's obviously bollocks.
In this case we have tried to implement Brexit. It has not proven possible (for various degrees of possible). It would not be undemocratic to ask the people for a view
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it."
Isn't democracy great?
One side - the EU has sent us a bill for damages - we are preparing to invite them over for a barbeque and asking them how much it will cost for them to attend.
"You voted Leave, I have negotiated a Deal but Parlaiment won't pass it, so you have to tell them again"
...and then offer a No Deal / Deal / Remain referendum.
Could she get that through the HoC?
That 200 of her MPs continue to put up with this approach is damning.
Perhaps Corbyn wouldn't be the worst option after all.
They are (potentially) being offered another choice.
You really don't get this democracy thing do you?
Definitely not if the vote is in January...
"the Prime Minister has seen her net favourability score knocked down from -25 to -31, with only 28% of people now saying that they have a favourable view of her and 59% now expressing a negative view. This study was conducted over Monday and Tuesday of this week - just after it was announced that the vote on the deal would be delayed"
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/12/theresa-mays-favourability-falls-ahead-confidence-
Has the PM resigned yet?
If we were in a situation where there had been no effort made to enact the referendum result, it was still a short time since then, and there was any prospect of one side holding a third, fourth, fifth, or whatever number referendum until the "right" result was achieved, I'd be sympathetic.
None of those is true.
It's been longer than the interval between the last two General Elections, all we've seemed to do since 2016 has been bloody Brexiting (ignoring the paranoia about May deliberately intending to derail Brexit and implicitly being willing to sacrifice the Conservative Party to do so), and if a referendum results in "Sign the Deal", it's damned well over. Once the Withdrawal Agreement is signed, we cease to be an EU member.
So what's the route to "voting until we give the right answer" if the Deal wins? If the Deal wins, It's over and out
The Leavers can make a decent case - and I'd be sympathetic to a four-way referendum after the Deal is signed, to be honest, as well - but this line that implies that a win for the Deal would still be ignored afterwards is such steaming dogshite that it damages the case.
If we have a referendum on the result, it'd be a good three years after the original one, with all the work being completed, but it looks pretty shitty compared to all the promises thanks to the campaign being such as to be seemingly designed to win the battle while losing the war, due to promising so much mutually inconsistent stuff (well done, Dominic Cummings - you've poisoned your own well, and it looks very much to me like we're going to leave the EU while the people overall actually want us to stay in, damaged us economically for the long term, and divided the country in such a way that we still can't see a prospect of it healing. And he thinks he's some kind of genius?). The vote wasn't ignored, it was never ignored, it was never going to be ignored, and we'll be reaping the crop from it whatever happens for bloody ages.
I've tried to be as objective as possible (seeing that I was originally pro-Leave before the campaign, it's actually still a default position for me), but I'm sick and tired of tripe like this coming up.