Whatever the legitimate grievances may be a lot of people seem to believe even now that just 'standing up' gets new facts.
It is pethaps at least worth a try.
Futile displacement activity is very much le mot juste du jour, n'est-ce pas?
I don't believe standing up to the EU would be futile displacement activity. Remainers here have been full of why it can't work, but it hasn't been credibly tried. The EU could tell May to scuttle the British fleet and there is shit all she could say, because her fallback position is no Brexit, which is what they want. All very well saying it's all too complex, but the simple solution has not been tried. No deal should have been prepared for even in bluff. It is criminal tgat it was not. And the dear old ERG who are apparently the bad guys somehow, are the only ones who have given May any leverage in this at all. Which she has squandered naturally.
Mr. Dean, because it pays lip service whilst utterly disrespecting the first referendum *and* signs us up to Schengen and the single currency, it's a mad idea.
Better (and easier to win, for those in favour) to remain than rejoin.
Rutte has been quite helpful generally. One of few allies though - Macron definitely hasn't been helpful, Merkel is at best neutral, the Spanish are compelled to raise Gibraltar every so often, and nobody even remembers who the Italian PM is this week.
Anecdote. I sat down with my 23 year old wife last night and explained, as non-patronisingly as possible, exactly what Brexit means, and what No Deal could entail (she asked me to tell her, I did not offer this pompous advice)
She was sincerely horrified. She had literally no clue about any of it. She is smart, has 3As at A Level, went to SOAS (tho dropped out because it's too PC), etc. She just finds the news boring and depressing and avoids it. She says all of her friends are the same, none of them think or talk about Brexit, let alone worry about it. She also reckons this is true of much of her family, and relatives.
How many are like her. Have no real idea what is happening, or about to happen?
The vast majority. Being on here gives one the strange impression that folk know what is happening. They have, in truth, a partial (in both senses of the word), vague idea.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
No magic. No hard border. No unicorns, fairies or cake.
All it takes is for the EU to wind back 40 years of harmonization and completely rewrite the very foundation of the single market as it has existed since the early 90s!
WHAT IS UNREASONABLE ABOUT THAT REQUEST?
Well if they want to keep the border open ...
... plus they have done it for other countries.
It is a legitimate, viable solution. Just because they don't like the idea does not make it less so.
Let's take CETA. CETA took seven years to conclude, because of the thousands and thousands of bits of regulatory alignment between Canadian and EU standards that needed to be agreed.
Canada and EU went out of their way for the better part of a decade to avoid the trade deal having significant amounts of mutual recognition. You might wonder why that might be.
The truth is the conformity assessment process that the EU's mutual recognition agreements provide is both expensive, time-consuming, and has to be re-done *every single time* a new product wants to be exported.
How must the ERG be regretting not waiting 2 days...
Their serial fuckups have cost them their lives dream. Heart of stone and all that.
The problem ultimately was well, well before that.
Hardcore leavers are right when they say that Parliment would never allow really any form of Brexit, as Parliment (as the MPs) doesn't believe in it themselves.
Maybe thats not a bad thing, but it should have been considered throughout this process instead of where we are now.
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.
Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition.
No we can't. It only works once. As soon as you introduce a second such deal with a third country, you need inspections. Otherwise how does country A know we are not trying to slip them goods made to country B's different standards?
Several, yes, but not many, hardly comprehensive, and they still depend on inspections, not magic. It is just accepting that it can be done in the other country.
Bingo! No magic and not at the border.
We sign a mutual recognition agreement with the EU. We do inspections at businesses within the country.
No magic. No hard border. No unicorns, fairies or cake.
We already have that with the EU. What was suggested was we had mutual recognition of different standards from different countries. Even mutual recognition of the same standards with new countries would be hard.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
It's an adequate deal. It enables us to leave without burning the economy or the Union. It contains stuff I don't like, but in general, it honours the result of the referendum. Quite whey anyone thinks we can leave the EU without striking compromises is a mystery.
I yield to no none in my criticism of Boris & Co., but I must add that people like Jo Johnson, Philip Lee, Sarah Wollaston are being equally obstructive, and quite disingenuous in echoing the arguments of the hardliners.
No magic. No hard border. No unicorns, fairies or cake.
All it takes is for the EU to wind back 40 years of harmonization and completely rewrite the very foundation of the single market as it has existed since the early 90s!
WHAT IS UNREASONABLE ABOUT THAT REQUEST?
Well if they want to keep the border open ...
... plus they have done it for other countries.
It is a legitimate, viable solution. Just because they don't like the idea does not make it less so.
Let's take CETA. CETA took seven years to conclude, because of the thousands and thousands of bits of regulatory alignment between Canadian and EU standards that needed to be agreed.
Canada and EU went out of their way for the better part of a decade to avoid the trade deal having significant amounts of mutual recognition. You might wonder why that might be.
The truth is the conformity assessment process that the EU's mutual recognition agreements provide is both expensive, time-consuming, and has to be re-done *every single time* a new product wants to be exported.
It's such a burdensome procedure that the EU and Canada spent 7 years negotiating a comprehensive series of regulatory alignments to AVOID it.
So we do that. We exit with mutual recognition and then negotiate a CETA style deal where appropriate. We are starting off from the same standards so it should be quicker as it's only a case of both sides agreeing where we might wish to diverge rather than where and how to harmonise.
Among the weapons in its armoury, Leave used and will use an appeal to the infantile "we want to be free", sometimes based on the largely imaginary "you lay down so many rules", which I have heard from voters who clearly do not know the difference between the EU's Parliament and its Commission, to say nothing of having cogitated about whether it matters what shape cucumbers are so long as you can slice them into discs. Is this transference or is it transference?
"They are trying to make it hard for us to go" will be a highly useful meme for Leave in the coming referendum. Leave with the help of the Sun are setting their ducks in a row.
Psychopolitically the position may be akin to one where a teenager feels they are being held prisoner, upon which they may bang a window until it breaks before climbing out of it, or self-harm.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
No.
Why do you hate democracy?
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
The people have already rejected Remain so no need to have that on the ballot. Just a choice between May's deal and WTO deal.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
It's an adequate deal. It enables us to leave without burning the economy or the Union. It contains stuff I don't like, but in general, it honours the result of the referendum. Quite whey anyone thinks we can leave the EU without striking compromises is a mystery.
I yield to no none in my criticism of Boris & Co., but I must add that people like Jo Johnson, Philip Lee, Sarah Wollaston are being equally obstructive, and quite disingenuous in echoing the arguments of the hardliners.
Indeed plus people are to rule bound we can stretch and bend the rules post the event.
It's an adequate deal. It enables us to leave without burning the economy or the Union. It contains stuff I don't like, but in general, it honours the result of the referendum. Quite whey anyone thinks we can leave the EU without striking compromises is a mystery.
Yes, it's a mystery as to where people might have gotten the impression that it would be the easiest deal ever, or that we held all the cards.
If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
At one point Mrs May seems to be visibly shaking. It's either hypoglycaemia or barely repressed rage.
If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
At one point Mrs May seems to be visibly shaking. It's either hypoglycaemia or barely repressed rage.
I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.
If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
I agree, I've had more obvious contretemps with an auctioneer, during an auction - but I suppose they were both well aware that the cameras were rolling, and in that setting, its more restrained than it might otherwise have been.
It's an adequate deal. It enables us to leave without burning the economy or the Union. It contains stuff I don't like, but in general, it honours the result of the referendum. Quite whey anyone thinks we can leave the EU without striking compromises is a mystery.
Yes, it's a mystery as to where people might have gotten the impression that it would be the easiest deal ever, or that we held all the cards.
A complete mystery.
I'm not talking about people like David Davis who clearly don't understand the subject.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30? We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
The terms for rejoining would not be the same as the terms for remain.
They might not let us in!
I'm pretty damn sure they would let us in. Terms for rejoining would be considerably easier than for leaving... They could hardly be more difficult. Reckon they'd say go on then. We have an urgent appointment with some fascinating Jehovahs Witnesses.
To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter,” said a senior EU source.
With friends like these...
That observation would be better applied to the DUP. Have any senior Tories got the guts to stand up to them? Wearing someone else's orange sash into the conference chamber while playing the flute they've forced you to play isn't a good look.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
Alternatively people do what they are good at and adapt, it's not ugly and we look back wondering what all the fuss was about.
It's an adequate deal. It enables us to leave without burning the economy or the Union. It contains stuff I don't like, but in general, it honours the result of the referendum. Quite whey anyone thinks we can leave the EU without striking compromises is a mystery.
Yes, it's a mystery as to where people might have gotten the impression that it would be the easiest deal ever, or that we held all the cards.
A complete mystery.
I'm not talking about people like David Davis who clearly don't understand the subject.
I have here the "bumper book of Brexiteers who actually knew what they were talking about on trade".
If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
the press want a conflict story so angry it is. Like you I didnt see much that suggested handbags at dawn.
To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter,” said a senior EU source.
With friends like these...
They were our friends.
We told them fuck off.
Now we reap the benefits of being a 3rd party...
But they know the majority of uk politicians didn’t want and trying to find some way through, and it is clear that some in the EU attitude is maximum punishment rather than how can we find a mutually beneficial outcome.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
One positive aspect of no deal chaos would be seeing that pathetic little turd panic.
Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.
I thought WTO had said exceptions can be made when the political situation is particularly "delicate" like with NI and ROI?
Is there any truth in this?
Yes and No.
We could choose not to enforce a hard border but another nation could bring a complaint which could force a hard border.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.
If only it was that simple.
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
It's not about a physical border: it's about the explicit choice not to collect tariffs from a particular country.
The remedy the WTO would insist on would not be a border in Northern Ireland, but that the Uruguayan meat exporter was allowed to send their produce to the UK tariff free.
Which, by the way, means that the Professor Minford policy of "zero tariffs" would be a sensible way forward, except that it would be a disaster for rural seats in the rest of the UK.
They wouldn’t be tarrif free just self declared
Result would be a thriving Irish import export sector with margins around 60% of the tarrif rate
If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.
I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
No.
Why do you hate democracy?
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
I reckon a May ally or two put in the final letters required to have the vote before the meeting.
That may be true, but if the ERG were smart (HA!) they would have withdrawn their own until a more propitious time.
And Brady would have asked them if they were really really sure, and found plenty more reasons to delay until a time more suitable for May.
The ERG supported May for as long as they felt able, and encouraged VONC after it became obvious that it was futile. They are the only ones who've displayed any balls, and the stick they're getting for sending letters, not sending letters, sending letters at the wrong time, not withdrawing letters, is ridiculous.
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30? We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
How many times does it need saying that the public will not be offered a "no deal" option and Tezza won't let us no deal on March 29th.
None, if your conversation is with the EU. They sussed out May long ago. Which is why they know they can get away with offering May diddly squat.
Arlene Foster got it right in commenting on the EU's stance at yesterday's summit: ""They are doing what they always do. The key question is whether the Prime Minister will stand up to them or whether she will roll over as has happened previously." [Although I think we all know the answer by now.]
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
The one consequence of Brexit that is widely popular is ending FoM.
Incidentally I think they would be waived under a FP but I appreciate that seems a long way off right now...
Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30? We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.
I'm on the verge of changing my mind. It is looking increasingly likely that Brexit, like Basil's duck, is off. Not because the chef is pissed in this case but rather sunk by its own contradictions. Only Corbyn can save it and why would he. It appears that Brexit cannot happen for the very reason that its most ardent supporters say that it must, i.e. to regain our sovereignty. Because if we need to regain our sovereignty, it means that we have lost it. And if we have lost it, it follows that even if we want to leave the European Union we effectively cannot. Which is precisely where we are. We can't leave without a deal because that would trash the economy and lead to bloodshed in Ireland, and we can't leave with a deal because all available deals tie us so close that it's not really worth leaving. It's a killer. Brexit is impossible because it is necessary and necessary because it is impossible. We can sum this up with a slogan, which I normally dislike but for this I will make an exception.
I'm on the verge of changing my mind. It is looking increasingly likely that Brexit, like Basil's duck, is off. Not because the chef is pissed in this case but rather sunk by its own contradictions. Only Corbyn can save it and why would he. It appears that Brexit cannot happen for the very reason that its most ardent supporters say that it must, i.e. to regain our sovereignty. Because if we need to regain our sovereignty, it means that we have lost it. And if we have lost it, it follows that even if we want to leave the European Union we effectively cannot. Which is precisely where we are. We can't leave without a deal because that would trash the economy and lead to bloodshed in Ireland, and we can't leave with a deal because all available deals tie us so close that it's not really worth leaving. It's a killer. Brexit is impossible because it is necessary and necessary because it is impossible. We can sum this up with a slogan, which I normally dislike but for this I will make an exception.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
No.
Why do you hate democracy?
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No Deal
Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.
If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.
You joining Priti's call to starve them into submission Sean?
Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30? We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
If we vote to Remain before Brexit Day amd cancel Article 50 as the ECJ have made clear we can Remain on current terms. After more likely we just end up with permanent Customs Union and Single Market
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
Hardly, It's trivial.
Again, symbolism, not cost.
It represents May successfully denuding UK citizens of the rights they've possessed for 40 years to live, love and work in 28 countries.
It's a symbol of the stripping of those rights away from UK citizens, and the pride with which she has done it.
This 7 euro fee is your grovelling to the EU saying "Please let me in; I acknowledge Mrs May has stripped me of my rights".
It's powerfully symbolic, and will stand as a totem that everything May tried to take away from us.
Or at least it would if we were leaving the EU, which we aren't.
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.
Let's have another vote.
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurts
One positive aspect of no deal chaos would be seeing that pathetic little turd panic.
He's Irelands Tony Blair - cool Hibernia - and when he goes he'll leave a fucking huge mess behing him.
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.
Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.
Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
I think most Leave voters would happily pay 7 Euros once a year for a trip to Spain if it ends free movement which is what most working class Leavers voted Leave for
Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30? We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.
Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".
Except that isn’t the status quo...the eu has made it clear that they see the only way forward is bigger and ever closer EU. Cameron’s deal was an attempt to try and resist some of that (but closer inspection it seemed legally dubious if it would).
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.
Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.
Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
As it is valid for three years, you'd have to go to the EU for several hundred years for it to cost thousands!
Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30? We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.
I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.
Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".
Just a point of order. It was the ECJ not the EU who made the ruling
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.
Hardly, It's trivial.
Again, symbolism, not cost.
It represents May successfully denuding UK citizens of the rights they've possessed for 40 years to live, love and work in 28 countries.
It's a symbol of the stripping of those rights away from UK citizens, and the pride with which she has done it.
This 7 euro fee is your grovelling to the EU saying "Please let me in; I acknowledge Mrs May has stripped me of my rights".
It's powerfully symbolic, and will stand as a totem that everything May tried to take away from us.
Or at least it would if we were leaving the EU, which we aren't.
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
Apart from the sixty million people who died, obvs.
You need to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
A bit of short term pain for the long term gain of Rejoining.
I’ve been reading Sapiens (highly recommended) on the agricultural revolution.
Argument is that individual Homo sapiens suffered from the shift but there was a massive increase in number, so from a purely evolutionary numbers game it was a win for the species.
If you assume that concepts (say “nationalism”) have the same “desire” to spread as genes (I think was the original idea behind the concept of meme, rather than cat pictures) then something like Brexit could be seen in a similar light
The “British idea” avoids been subsumed into “European idea” even though it is costly to British individuals
Comments
They might not let us in!
Better (and easier to win, for those in favour) to remain than rejoin.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
Canada and EU went out of their way for the better part of a decade to avoid the trade deal having significant amounts of mutual recognition. You might wonder why that might be.
The truth is the conformity assessment process that the EU's mutual recognition agreements provide is both expensive, time-consuming, and has to be re-done *every single time* a new product wants to be exported.
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/goods/building-blocks/conformity-assessment_en
It's such a burdensome procedure that the EU and Canada spent 7 years negotiating a comprehensive series of regulatory alignments to AVOID it.
Hardcore leavers are right when they say that Parliment would never allow really any form of Brexit, as Parliment (as the MPs) doesn't believe in it themselves.
Maybe thats not a bad thing, but it should have been considered throughout this process instead of where we are now.
I yield to no none in my criticism of Boris & Co., but I must add that people like Jo Johnson, Philip Lee, Sarah Wollaston are being equally obstructive, and quite disingenuous in echoing the arguments of the hardliners.
VONC-MV-VONC
VONC-GE?
or
VONC-GONU?
"They are trying to make it hard for us to go" will be a highly useful meme for Leave in the coming referendum. Leave with the help of the Sun are setting their ducks in a row.
Psychopolitically the position may be akin to one where a teenager feels they are being held prisoner, upon which they may bang a window until it breaks before climbing out of it, or self-harm.
With friends like these...
A complete mystery.
IIRC even our own Big G and others were willing to back that.
Like BF which is offering 1.05 for Bercow to still be speaker on 1 January.
DYOR
We told them fuck off.
Now we reap the benefits of being a 3rd party...
It's a blank post-it note.
I now live with my wife and kids.
I don't think any of my friends begrudge that.
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
Result would be a thriving Irish import export sector with margins around 60% of the tarrif rate
I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.
And embarrassed as all hell that on numerous occassions we have had to wade in and break up family fights.
Driving May into the arms of Vince is not on the DUP battleplan.
Well there is now a 76,56% chance of a Remain/My Deal referendum.
How many times does it need saying that the public will not be offered a "no deal" option and Tezza won't let us no deal on March 29th.
They are gonna be so fkn mad.
DUP ditch her.
The LDs are the only bidder, they want a second referendum.
May says to the Tories, it's a second referendum or Corbyn (oh and I will step down).
The ERG supported May for as long as they felt able, and encouraged VONC after it became obvious that it was futile. They are the only ones who've displayed any balls, and the stick they're getting for sending letters, not sending letters, sending letters at the wrong time, not withdrawing letters, is ridiculous.
Arlene Foster got it right in commenting on the EU's stance at yesterday's summit:
""They are doing what they always do. The key question is whether the Prime Minister will stand up to them or whether she will roll over as has happened previously."
[Although I think we all know the answer by now.]
Incidentally I think they would be waived under a FP but I appreciate that seems a long way off right now...
Javid, Hunt or Gove would also have got no better Deal from the EU and Hunt and Gove poll significantly worse than May
Brexit Means No Brexit.
the Mouse.
TBH given the likes of US and Canada have had this kind of scheme for ages, I am surprised the EU have been so slow.
This is directed at the mps, not TM
If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.
It represents May successfully denuding UK citizens of the rights they've possessed for 40 years to live, love and work in 28 countries.
It's a symbol of the stripping of those rights away from UK citizens, and the pride with which she has done it.
This 7 euro fee is your grovelling to the EU saying "Please let me in; I acknowledge Mrs May has stripped me of my rights".
It's powerfully symbolic, and will stand as a totem that everything May tried to take away from us.
Or at least it would if we were leaving the EU, which we aren't.
Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
Argument is that individual Homo sapiens suffered from the shift but there was a massive increase in number, so from a purely evolutionary numbers game it was a win for the species.
If you assume that concepts (say “nationalism”) have the same “desire” to spread as genes (I think was the original idea behind the concept of meme, rather than cat pictures) then something like Brexit could be seen in a similar light
The “British idea” avoids been subsumed into “European idea” even though it is costly to British individuals