well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances that Leavers had had nothing to do with the EU but they had grown disillusioned with successive British governments seeming to ride roughshod over their hopes and desires (except for a new iPhone X or Range Rover Evoque which they have continued to buy on the never never) and as such they hoped that by voting to "Leave the EU", the reality and implications of which most people hadn't the fainest clue about just like they might once have kicked the telly when it was on the fritz.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Which is why you are studiously doing nothing about it and ceding the ground to Corbyn ? Except of course running once again the discretied scare stories and chucking out random insults.
strange strategy
cant see it working
That could have something to do with being lumbered with delivering Brexit.
The current Brexit impasse is a political choice.
Choice setermines priorities. Currently the Tories think their internal strife is more interesting than the boring stuff like roads and housing, the things voters actually care about
Dominic Grieve might be able to think something up. He shouldn't have voted to enact Art. 50 in view of his subsequent actions but he's got more brains than the ERG put together.
No he should not have voted for art 50. To do so and now machinate for no brexit rather than support a deal which seeks to leave the EU in a soft and orderly low-risk way is deeply dishonourable.
Apart from Boris Johnson who occupies an integrity free space all of his own, these tory remainaics are IMO behaving worse than anyone in the current shambles.
The ERG crazies are at least driven by a sincere albeit zealous and utterly indefensible view of what the referendum result meant. The DUP are the DUP. And Labour are after all the opposition. But this Grieve, JoJo, Wollaston etc faction ... the pits.
No, the idiots are the ERG, who won't settle for any Brexit unless it is their Brexit, which no-one has ever (majority) voted for, and no-one ever will.
Betting wise there must be some reasonable value in a TM resignation or ousting in 2018. Talk of the 48 letters going in has diminished partly because there's so much else going on - not least a potential VoNC next week. But as many have pointed out TM has ruin out of road and is singularly unsuited given her previous stance/inaction to pivot to Norway or to No Deal.
I'm on the other side of this bet (Exit 2019 or later) for May as Tory leader. Leadership timetabling over the christmas period should hold her technically in position past the 31st December.
To negotiate well they had to make it clear that they had the option of walking away. They never did that making it explicit that no deal was never an option.
It was the worst negotiating tactic ever.
I think the worst negotiating tactic was making someone as lazy and stupid as David Davis Secretary of State
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances that Leavers had had nothing to do with the EU but they had grown disillusioned with successive British governments seeming to ride roughshod over their hopes and desires (except for a new iPhone X or Range Rover Evoque which they have continued to buy on the never never) and as such they hoped that by voting to "Leave the EU", the reality and implications of which most people hadn't the fainest clue about just like they might once have kicked the telly when it was on the fritz.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Which is why you are studiously doing nothing about it and ceding the ground to Corbyn ? Except of course running once again the discretied scare stories and chucking out random insults.
strange strategy
cant see it working
They don't need a strategy to win the argument. They've got a majority in the commons that want to stay in the EU, so who cares about arguments?
They just need to engineer a scenario where the deal fails and they "can't possibly vote for no deal" and can just vote to cancel Article 50 as a "last resort".
Of course they'll blame the few in the commons who actually want to leave properly for this.
Choice setermines priorities. Currently the Tories think their internal strife is more interesting than the boring stuff like roads and housing, the things voters actually care about
David Cameron was elected Tory Leader 13 years ago today. In his first speech as leader, he said it was vital that his party "stop banging on about Europe".
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances that Leavers had had nothing to do with the EU but they had grown disillusioned with successive British governments seeming to ride roughshod over their hopes and desires (except for a new iPhone X or Range Rover Evoque which they have continued to buy on the never never) and as such they hoped that by voting to "Leave the EU", the reality and implications of which most people hadn't the fainest clue about, just like they might once have kicked the telly when it was on the fritz, all their problems would be solved.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Christ. It couldn't be possible that people voted to leave the EU because they actually wanted to leave the EU.
We are trying to make the best of a very very bad job. eg. The Deal. Again, mistakes were made, many of them, by May back immediately after the referendum result - no big tent then, just idiotic red lines - but as they say we are where we are and the deal is the least bad option we have.
Plus, it's not my fault if 35.645% of the Tory party are, to use the vernacular, idiots talking uninformed nonsense.
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances on the fritz.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Which is why you are studiously doing nothing about it and ceding the ground to Corbyn ? Except of course running once again the discretied scare stories and chucking out random insults.
strange strategy
cant see it working
We are trying to make the best of a very very bad job. eg. The Deal. Again, mistakes were made, many of them, by May back immediately after the referendum result - no big tent then, just idiotic red lines - but as they say we are where we are and the deal is the least bad option we have.
Plus, it's not my fault if 35.645% of the Tory party are, to use the vernacular, idiots talking uninformed nonsense.
Short memory Mr T. Surely the idiot is called Cameron he kicked the whole thing off, didnt understand the elctorate and then scarpered.
Sky just reported the ECJ ruling on A50 will be delivered on Monday, just in time for the vote
Would they need more deliberation and a longer written reasoning if they chose to contradict the EU AG than if they agreed his opinion? In other words, does the speed give any hint?
No judgments of the court are normally brief whether they agree with the adv gen or not. They usually do though. It’s a weird system.
It was pointed out that triggering art 50 was the next step in the process but Labour weren't calling for it to be triggered immediately.
Corbyn the day after the referendum: "The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from the European Union."
OH NO! We are back to what the meaning of is now is.
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn spoke to David Dimbleby on the BBC the morning of the EU Referendum result. His first remark was that: "The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from the European Union." Mr Dimbleby said the idea of an abrupt signing of Article 50 was at odds with suggestions from Tory MEP Daniel Hannan who said it would be better to take our time and develop a strategy. My Corbyn confirmed that it was important to have a strategy but did not disagree with the suggestion that he was calling for an abrupt triggering of Article 50.
So the slam dunk is...
Mr Dimbleby said "the idea of an abrupt signing of Article 50 was at odds with suggestions from Tory MEP Daniel Hannan who said it would be better to take our time and develop a strategy."
To which Corbyn "confirmed that it was important to have a strategy but did not disagree with the suggestion that he was calling for an abrupt triggering of Article 50."
So Corbyn was riled up trying to get article 50 triggered there and then but for some reason ends up sounding like he agrees we need a strategy and fails to disagree with the Hannan suggestion of take our time.....?
This demand to get article 50 triggered straight away argument is a little weaker than I thought.
Surely Dimebly just offered him a counter view (if we assume his demand was for it to be immediate) and he halfs agrees with him and offers no argument?!
Did he demand it be done straight away and then suddenly change his mind? it would make more sense considering his response to Dimebly.
Surely Labour should abstain on the Meaningful Vote, as the DUP would then vote with them on the VONC?
MPs will vote to stay in the single market and customs union, we know that now after the big announcement yesterday Morgan and Letwin will propose that to the House using the Grieve amendment soon after the Deal is voted down, if it is voted down
That still looks like displacement activity, as negotiating EFTA/EEA membership can't be done by March 29th,
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vas the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Which is why you are studiously doing nothing about it and ceding the ground to Corbyn ? Except of course running once again the discretied scare stories and chucking out random insults.
strange strategy
cant see it working
They don't need a strategy to win the argument. They've got a majority in the commons that want to stay in the EU, so who cares about arguments?
They just need to engineer a scenario where the deal fails and they "can't possibly vote for no deal" and can just vote to cancel Article 50 as a "last resort".
Of course they'll blame the few in the commons who actually want to leave properly for this.
But thats not a strategy which will put the issue to bed they are simply signing up for 40 more years of bickering.
Why is Hilton all over the place this week? Is he on one of his flying visits?
This is from Telegraph piece he wrote:
"We can and should take proactive steps to counteract disruption: make post-Brexit Britain the world’s best location for business and investment; slash corporation tax and the regulatory burden; announce plans to build the world’s most modern infrastructure and best-trained workforce."
We'll do this by March will we?
And in general, we can't even get HS2 started never mind any other infrastructure.
Mr Dimbleby said "the idea of an abrupt signing of Article 50 was at odds with suggestions from Tory MEP Daniel Hannan who said it would be better to take our time and develop a strategy."
To which Corbyn "confirmed that it was important to have a strategy but did not disagree with the suggestion that he was calling for an abrupt triggering of Article 50."
So Corbyn was riled up trying to get article 50 triggered there and then but for some reason ends up sounding like he agrees we need a strategy and fails to disagree with the Hannan suggestion of take our time.....?
This demand to get article 50 triggered straight away argument is a little weaker than I thought.
Surely Dimebly just offered him a counter view (if we assume his demand was for it to be immediate) and he halfs agrees with him and offers no argument?!
Did he demand it be done straight away and then suddenly change his mind? it would make more sense considering his response to Dimebly.
As I've said, I don't believe he knew what he meant when he said it.
Choice setermines priorities. Currently the Tories think their internal strife is more interesting than the boring stuff like roads and housing, the things voters actually care about
David Cameron was elected Tory Leader 13 years ago today. In his first speech as leader, he said it was vital that his party "stop banging on about Europe".
Plus, Japanese car makers don't care if you slash corporation tax to 0. As they can't make a business work without JIT customs infrastructure, there will be no profits to tax.
_____________________________________________ England will now play either Russia or Croatia in the World Cup 2018 semi-finals on Wednesday 11 July 2018. _______________________________
Why doesn't the football writer want the English football team to have any team to prepare for possibly the biggest game we have had in decades?! (this article was pretty much straight after our quarter final)
He is as mad as Corbyn in his suggestion we should play the game right now!!
Even if we ignore the impracticality of the Croatia Vs Russia game having to finish before it even starts so our game against the winners can start.
This article is also written on the 7th July. He wants the team to play a game now which is on the 11th July. Somehow they have to bend time to make the 11th July immeadiate.
Either that or this professional journalist is employing a widely used use of the word now that is perfectly acceptable and widely understood and not used against him because there is no political benefit.
Admittedly it is more obvious the football journalist doesn't mean right now when he says now but those seeking political advantage can claim to know exactly what was meant.
I don't believe Corbyn knew what he meant by "now" until a month later.
I don't believe Corbyn is only talking and making decisions whilst talking to the angry journalists who at that point had spent most of their time trying to hound him out of office.
Grieve surely a shoo-in for Parliamentarian of the Year now
He's clever and effective no question. And if his primary motive is to make a hard brexit impossible then he might even get my vote.
But if what he is really about is frustrating any meaningful brexit (which is what the evidence suggests to me at the moment) then no I'll be looking elsewhere on the ballot.
Although nobody springs to mind, so I will have to mull that over and get back to you.
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances on the fritz.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Which is why you are studiously doing nothing about it and ceding the ground to Corbyn ? Except of course running once again the discretied scare stories and chucking out random insults.
strange strategy
cant see it working
We are trying to make the best of a very very bad job. eg. The Deal. Again, mistakes were made, many of them, by May back immediately after the referendum result - no big tent then, just idiotic red lines - but as they say we are where we are and the deal is the least bad option we have.
Plus, it's not my fault if 35.645% of the Tory party are, to use the vernacular, idiots talking uninformed nonsense.
Short memory Mr T. Surely the idiot is called Cameron he kicked the whole thing off, didnt understand the elctorate and then scarpered.
It was a democratic process. I don't blame him for it at all. Previously 4m Kippers were effectively disenfranchised and if British politics is about anything it is about making enough noise to get the chance to vote on "your" issue. Nige and the Kippers did this par excellence.
Seems more likely that May will call for another round of EU meetings and then another vote after Xmas.
THE UTTER HUMILIATION OF THERESA MAY IS BAD NEWS FOR JEREMY CORBYN AND HERE'S WHY
Oh, Han Dodges, never change.
My favourite part of every part of the Brexit process has been the here is something disastrous for the government... ohh Corbyn is really done for now...
I like to assume they aren't stupid enough to believe it themselves but it makes you worry about their customers around sharp objects.
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances that Leavers had had nothing to do with the EU but they had grown disillusioned with successive British governments seeming to ride roughshod over their hopes and desires (except for a new iPhone X or Range Rover Evoque which they have continued to buy on the never never) and as such they hoped that by voting to "Leave the EU", the reality and implications of which most people hadn't the fainest clue about, just like they might once have kicked the telly when it was on the fritz, all their problems would be solved.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Worse than that. In the most blighted parts of the UK, the EU, it seems to me, were the only people actually doing anything, other than massively underfunded local councils. ERDF for post-industrial areas like Mansfield and rural stuff in places like Wales and Cornwall.
Brexiteers will say the same money will be spent, but frankly I don't believe them and there has been sod of evidence in decades that it would happen.
Domestic public spending in deprived areas is far in excess of anything that the EU spends.
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances on the fritz.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Which is why you are studiously doing nothing about it and ceding the ground to Corbyn ? Except of course running once again the discretied scare stories and chucking out random insults.
strange strategy
cant see it working
We are trying to make the best of a very very bad job. eg. The Deal. Again, mistakes were made, many of them, by May back immediately after the referendum result - no big tent then, just idiotic red lines - but as they say we are where we are and the deal is the least bad option we have.
Plus, it's not my fault if 35.645% of the Tory party are, to use the vernacular, idiots talking uninformed nonsense.
Short memory Mr T. Surely the idiot is called Cameron he kicked the whole thing off, didnt understand the elctorate and then scarpered.
It was a democratic process. I don't blame him for it at all. Previously 4m Kippers were effectively disenfranchised and if British politics is about anything it is about making enough noise to get the chance to vote on "your" issue. Nige and the Kippers did this par excellence.
why wouldnt people vote for someone else if a political party no longer represents their views ?
Grieve surely a shoo-in for Parliamentarian of the Year now
He's clever and effective no question. And if his primary motive is to make a hard brexit impossible then he might even get my vote.
But if what he is really about is frustrating any meaningful brexit (which is what the evidence suggests to me at the moment) then no I'll be looking elsewhere on the ballot.
Although nobody springs to mind, so I will have to mull that over and get back to you.
As I said, Grieve is a very intelligent, if dishonourable, man.
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vas the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Which is why you are studiously doing nothing about it and ceding the ground to Corbyn ? Except of course running once again the discretied scare stories and chucking out random insults.
strange strategy
cant see it working
They don't need a strategy to win the argument. They've got a majority in the commons that want to stay in the EU, so who cares about arguments?
They just need to engineer a scenario where the deal fails and they "can't possibly vote for no deal" and can just vote to cancel Article 50 as a "last resort".
Of course they'll blame the few in the commons who actually want to leave properly for this.
But thats not a strategy which will put the issue to bed they are simply signing up for 40 more years of bickering.
They don't care about putting the issue to bed or ending the bickering. They just want to stay in the EU by hook or by crook.
And if it annoys the "nasty ignorant racists who didn't know what they wanted" then it's another victory.
They claim that people didn't know what they wanted when they voted, but then refuse to put no deal on another referendum to try to actually find out. Just remain or almost remain.
Invoking Article 50 immediately was a catastrophic error. May was foolish for doing it, Corbyn was foolish for enabling her. Parliament was foolish for not giving it a moment's scrutiny.
But we are where we are; at least Parliament is trying to fix its mistakes *now*.
Immediately? It was about 7 months.
The mistake was not doing anything useful in those 7 months or indeed in the subsequent 18. We weren’t helped by the EU refusing to discuss anything until we did serve the notice and their subsequent absurd timetabling proposals but we might have sought a consensus on what we wanted across Parliament.
"On Oct the 15th this year, he Prime Minister made an important point... 'If the EU were not to co-operate on our future relationship, we must be able to ensure that we cannot be kept in this backstop arrangement indefinitely.' Does the Secretary of State agree?"
why wouldnt people vote for someone else if a political party no longer represents their views ?
They did vote for someone else - they voted for UKIP. But UKIP, as noted at the time, was (and maybe still is) the most successful pressure group in history. It achieved its aim by making it clear that its members would vote for the party which included a referendum pledge in their manifesto.
These figures are all remarkably close to the numbers in 2012-14 or so, when Ed Miliband would routinely come last and DK would frequently beat Cameron as well. It's not a Brexit thing.
Invoking Article 50 immediately was a catastrophic error. May was foolish for doing it, Corbyn was foolish for enabling her. Parliament was foolish for not giving it a moment's scrutiny.
But we are where we are; at least Parliament is trying to fix its mistakes *now*.
Immediately? It was about 7 months.
To be clear, yes. I think we're all talking about the same thing. Invoking A50 before she hadn't even agreed with her Cabinet what the terms of the negotiation should be, and having not then a slightest clue where she wanted to end up has to be one of the all-time great political fuckups.
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances that Leavers had had nothing to do with the EU but they had grown disillusioned with successive British governments seeming to ride roughshod over their hopes and desires (except for a new iPhone X or Range Rover Evoque which they have continued to buy on the never never) and as such they hoped that by voting to "Leave the EU", the reality and implications of which most people hadn't the fainest clue about, just like they might once have kicked the telly when it was on the fritz, all their problems would be solved.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Christ. It couldn't be possible that people voted to leave the EU because they actually wanted to leave the EU.
Because it is undemocratic, bureaucratic, wasteful, run almost exclusively for the benefit of the French and the Germans, is on the path to ever closer union built around the Euro, membership of which would be disastrous for us, for example.
If A50 is pulled - unilaterally or otherwise, referendum or not, by Parly or Govt, doesn't matter - is the Remain we get a Cameron-negotiated Remain (which I hereby dub Cameremain) or is it a pre-Cameron negotiation Remain (which I call Premain).
My own view is that at law the Council decision EUCO1/16 giving the thumbs-up to the Cameron deal is expressly conditional on voting remain (para 4: "It is understood that, should the result of the referendum in the United Kingdom be for it to leave the European Union, the set of arrangements referred to in paragraph 2 above will cease to exist."). That means any Remain would be Premain.
Of course, there is nothing to stop the Council saying "we'll give you Cameremain if you Remain at all", but I daresay I haven't seen if any of the major players have been asked the question, let alone given an answer. Notwithstanding the clear expression of para 4 EUCO16/1, the ECJ would no doubt happily tie itself in knots to find the 'right' answer if the question of interpreting the Council decision were competently referred to it.
But you'll remember the AG said on Tuesday that A50 was revocable only if doing so wasn't abusive. Would the Commission consider (and would the ECJ find) that pulling A50 for a Cameremain was abusive and therefore only Premain was available? Would the ECJ refuse to rule on this in the abstract until A50 was pulled and it was too late? I think the answers are yes, yes and yes.
If pulling A50 means Premain, bear in mind that the total votes cast for Premain were 0. Could the government, Parliament or the electorate bring itself to deliver that?
Choice setermines priorities. Currently the Tories think their internal strife is more interesting than the boring stuff like roads and housing, the things voters actually care about
David Cameron was elected Tory Leader 13 years ago today. In his first speech as leader, he said it was vital that his party "stop banging on about Europe".
and yet he thumped that drum louder than anyone
It's not possible to avoid "banging on about Europe" because we have long been unhappy members, and EU Parliamentary elections give us the chance to let off steam by electing loons, who then keep the pot stirring. And now, lots of French, German, and Italians are deciding they'd like to join in the fun.
Invoking Article 50 immediately was a catastrophic error. May was foolish for doing it, Corbyn was foolish for enabling her. Parliament was foolish for not giving it a moment's scrutiny.
But we are where we are; at least Parliament is trying to fix its mistakes *now*.
Immediately? It was about 7 months.
To be clear, yes. I think we're all talking about the same thing. Invoking A50 before she hadn't even agreed with her Cabinet what the terms of the negotiation should be, and having not then a slightest clue where she wanted to end up has to be one of the all-time great political fuckups.
We are indeed. And not just her cabinet but the Commons and the country. It really could have been better.
There must be a possibilty that TM pulls the vote, maybe after A50 ruling on monday, to go back to the EU as the backstop is the issue. Mind you she is stubborn so who knows
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances that Leavers had had nothing to do with the EU but they had grown disillusioned with successive British governments seeming to ride roughshod over their hopes and desires (except for a new iPhone X or Range Rover Evoque which they have continued to buy on the never never) and as such they hoped that by voting to "Leave the EU", the reality and implications of which most people hadn't the fainest clue about, just like they might once have kicked the telly when it was on the fritz, all their problems would be solved.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Christ. It couldn't be possible that people voted to leave the EU because they actually wanted to leave the EU.
Because it is undemocratic, bureaucratic, wasteful, run almost exclusively for the benefit of the French and the Germans, is on the path to ever closer union built around the Euro, membership of which would be disastrous for us, for example.
Well quite.
But you try and get an EU supporter to admit any of these could be legitimate reason to vote to leave. It's purely because they were ignorant racists.
As always in this sort of situation, the extreme elements resort to hyperbole. That discredits the rest of the narrative. Unfortunately for Remain the rest of the message was already negative. 'We know better than you cos you is thick' seldom elicits much enthusiasm.
Cameron's hubris by scurrying off to Europe and claiming his rubbish deal was actually pure gold strained even his supporters' powers of gullibility.
And finally FOM. The free trade, no tariff element of the EU remained attractive, but why the insistence on totally open borders as a principle rather than an economic imperative for the individual countries. They'd want some immigration for economic reasons anyway. FOM showed their real intentions - a single state, something of a guilty secret for them. Why be ashamed of it? Why not stick it up as the major selling point?
If pulling A50 means Premain, bear in mind that the total votes cast for Premain were 0. Could the government, Parliament or the electorate bring itself to deliver that?
Plus, Japanese car makers don't care if you slash corporation tax to 0. As they can't make a business work without JIT customs infrastructure, there will be no profits to tax.
California dreaming...
Especially at a time when the car industry is going about the biggest, most fundamental changes since it began with the rapid switch from Fossil fuels to electric (VW announced yesterday all their last fossil fuel car release will be in 2026) so it's easy to justify closing your UK plant and moving production abroad
well I could equally argue the remain vote was based of the frightened ( project fear ) and the gullible ( all those young voters) but I cant be arsed.PB has had 2 years of yadda yadda and nobody's any better for it.
Theres very litlle to be gained by accusing the other side of whatever. Both sides had their chances, they both ran fairly discreditable campigns and both have to live with the result.
The problem for remainers as I see it is they still havent understood why they lost and until they get it the country cant move on. Corbyn is better equipped to tackle the issue than the tantrum Tories,
It would just be nice if the so called adults acted a bit more like adults.
We understand why we lost. People wanted to stick it to the man. Something we have noted on here for those two years and indeed there was a good article about it (Cohen?) only yesterday or at least this week.
We also understand that the vast majority of the grievances that Leavers had had nothing to do with the EU but they had grown disillusioned with successive British governments seeming to ride roughshod over their hopes and desires (except for a new iPhone X or Range Rover Evoque which they have continued to buy on the never never) and as such they hoped that by voting to "Leave the EU", the reality and implications of which most people hadn't the fainest clue about, just like they might once have kicked the telly when it was on the fritz, all their problems would be solved.
We also understand that a non-trivial proportion of Leave voters don't like foreigners. Some of course wanted to "control not limit" foreigners but when it comes down to it, the referendum legitimised anti-foreigner feeling.
Then there were the purist types (our very own @Richard_Tyndall for example) who voted for all the best reasons, even if they did have to hitch their wagons to the ignorant and the bigots.
We understand very well why we lost.
Christ. It couldn't be possible that people voted to leave the EU because they actually wanted to leave the EU.
Because it is undemocratic, bureaucratic, wasteful, run almost exclusively for the benefit of the French and the Germans, is on the path to ever closer union built around the Euro, membership of which would be disastrous for us, for example.
Nah you are projecting your dislike of huge monolithic entities onto the EU of which we were an influential and relevant part.
I reckon Mrs May could face two votes of (no) confidence in the next ten days.
This is all so exciting.
Thank you Brexit.
Unless she resigns first. Which I still think there's a very large chance of, given the enormity of the shellacking she appears to be heading ominously and interminably towards.
Plus, Japanese car makers don't care if you slash corporation tax to 0. As they can't make a business work without JIT customs infrastructure, there will be no profits to tax.
California dreaming...
Especially at a time when the car industry is going about the biggest, most fundamental changes since it began with the rapid switch from Fossil fuels to electric (VW announced yesterday all their last fossil fuel car release will be in 2026) so it's easy to justify closing your UK plant and moving production abroad
The EU have their fingers and toes crossed that a huge deposit of Lithium is found in the EU in the next few years.
Seems more likely that May will call for another round of EU meetings and then another vote after Xmas.
THE UTTER HUMILIATION OF THERESA MAY IS BAD NEWS FOR JEREMY CORBYN AND HERE'S WHY
Oh, Han Dodges, never change.
My favourite part of every part of the Brexit process has been the here is something disastrous for the government... ohh Corbyn is really done for now...
I like to assume they aren't stupid enough to believe it themselves but it makes you worry about their customers around sharp objects.
How long can Dan Hodges make a living been anti Labour. He was totally against Ed Milliband never mind Corbyn.
I suppose if you are ex Labour it can go on for a while.
Plus, Japanese car makers don't care if you slash corporation tax to 0. As they can't make a business work without JIT customs infrastructure, there will be no profits to tax.
California dreaming...
Especially at a time when the car industry is going about the biggest, most fundamental changes since it began with the rapid switch from Fossil fuels to electric (VW announced yesterday all their last fossil fuel car release will be in 2026) so it's easy to justify closing your UK plant and moving production abroad
The EU have their fingers and toes crossed that a huge deposit of Lithium is found in the EU in the next few years.
The more interesting bit is that an electric car (once things settle down and range issues are solved) will last 300,000 miles or so compared to the 10-15 years and 150,000 miles most cars can currently do.
Long term selling cars is going to be a lot harder.
"Asked why he'd systematically and flagrantly violated commons standards by not declaring over 50K of income, the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is reported to have made some pompous but irrelevant reference to a Greek poet he once read on Twitter."
No, the idiots are the ERG, who won't settle for any Brexit unless it is their Brexit, which no-one has ever (majority) voted for, and no-one ever will.
Absolutely right. Their position (that a soft brexit is not brexit) is an extremist and unintelligent interpretation of the referendum result.
But the position of the Grieve faction (that a soft brexit is unacceptable because remain is better) is even less appetizing. That interpretation of the referendum result is utterly indefensible. Least not with a straight face.
Labour can only win this if they first abstain on the MV. That leaves 314 Conservatives + Elphicke + Griffiths (after excluding speaker and one deputy)
323 non-Conservatives (after excluding two Deputy Speakers)
Labour + DUP + SNP+ Green have 303.
So it comes down to the Lib Dems, Plaid, Lady Hermon and 5 ex-Labour. Do they benefit from an early election or not?
Plus, Japanese car makers don't care if you slash corporation tax to 0. As they can't make a business work without JIT customs infrastructure, there will be no profits to tax.
California dreaming...
Especially at a time when the car industry is going about the biggest, most fundamental changes since it began with the rapid switch from Fossil fuels to electric (VW announced yesterday all their last fossil fuel car release will be in 2026) so it's easy to justify closing your UK plant and moving production abroad
The EU have their fingers and toes crossed that a huge deposit of Lithium is found in the EU in the next few years.
The more interesting bit is that an electric car (once things settle down and range issues are solved) will last 300,000 miles or so compared to the 10-15 years and 150,000 miles most cars can currently do.
Long term selling cars is going to be a lot harder.
This is the worst part of this whole tortured process in my opinion:
T.May in June 2018 - Discussing the EU's NI Backstop plan.
"What we’ve seen from the European Commission is an idea, one idea in particular that would effectively put a border down which would separate out Northern Ireland from Great Britain. That’s not right, that’s not acceptable, we’re one United Kingdom,”
G. Cox Nov 2018 - writing about the NI Backstop.
“GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI for goods passing from GB to NI”
So she lied, and she knew she was lying because in order to get a deal together there was no alternative. But she thought by kicking the can as far down the road to the end of the year she would get away with it because of the threat of a No Deal Brexit.
For this fact alone this deal deserves to be voted down, and by a significant majority.
Labour can only win this if they first abstain on the MV. That leaves 314 Conservatives + Elphicke + Griffiths (after excluding speaker and one deputy)
323 non-Conservatives (after excluding two Deputy Speakers)
Labour + DUP + SNP+ Green have 303.
So it comes down to the Lib Dems, Plaid, Lady Hermon and 5 ex-Labour. Do they benefit from an early election or not?
I think Lady Hermon will do everything to stop Corbyn becoming PM.
The Lib Dems are very much anti Brexit, but financially they don't have a pot to piss in, so really wouldn't welcome an early election, so they could go either way.
"Asked why he'd systematically and flagrantly violated commons standards by not declaring over 50K of income, the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is reported to have made some pompous but irrelevant reference to a Greek poet he once read on Twitter."
Yes - @Alanbrooke if you want to see someone who really believes there are little people (as in the ones who have to pay their taxes/declare things when they have to) - you should watch Boris' apology.
No, the idiots are the ERG, who won't settle for any Brexit unless it is their Brexit, which no-one has ever (majority) voted for, and no-one ever will.
Absolutely right. Their position (that a soft brexit is not brexit) is an extremist and unintelligent interpretation of the referendum result.
But the position of the Grieve faction (that a soft brexit is unacceptable because remain is better) is even less appetizing. That interpretation of the referendum result is utterly indefensible. Least not with a straight face.
All roads lead to The Deal. I might top up but it does rely on people being halfway sensible.
Labour can only win this if they first abstain on the MV. That leaves 314 Conservatives + Elphicke + Griffiths (after excluding speaker and one deputy)
323 non-Conservatives (after excluding two Deputy Speakers)
Labour + DUP + SNP+ Green have 303.
So it comes down to the Lib Dems, Plaid, Lady Hermon and 5 ex-Labour. Do they benefit from an early election or not?
I think Labour will move a VONC after the MV fails anyway. They should expect to lose, but I think it's worth doing because they need to test the DUP. They say they will support May's government, but it's important to actually make them march through the Aye lobby and do it.
Make sure every Tory knows that the DUP have made themselves the final arbiter of what this government does from now on, not Mrs May.
If the DUP sit on their hands, then a VONC becomes super tight. Either way, win or lose, her party will VONC her straight after, and that she will definitely lose.
Of course, May could avoid all this pain by resigning on Tuesday night, and I think she might.
Labour can only win this if they first abstain on the MV. That leaves 314 Conservatives + Elphicke + Griffiths (after excluding speaker and one deputy)
323 non-Conservatives (after excluding two Deputy Speakers)
Labour + DUP + SNP+ Green have 303.
So it comes down to the Lib Dems, Plaid, Lady Hermon and 5 ex-Labour. Do they benefit from an early election or not?
I think Lady Hermon will do everything to stop Corbyn becoming PM.
The Lib Dems are very much anti Brexit, but financially they don't have a pot to piss in, so really wouldn't welcome an early election, so they could go either way.
I think that's correct. 317 votes for the government is probably the target to beat (unless Wollaston refuses to support the government).
"Asked why he'd systematically and flagrantly violated commons standards by not declaring over 50K of income, the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is reported to have made some pompous but irrelevant reference to a Greek poet he once read on Twitter."
Yes - @Alanbrooke if you want to see someone who really believes there are little people (as in the ones who have to pay their taxes/declare things when they have to) - you should watch Boris' apology.
@Topping sorry real life has an irritating habit of getting in the way of blogging
wrt your earlier post
Cameron was under no obligation to call the referendum.
As was pointed out at the time if Leaving was such a potential disaster he should never have called the referendum.
_____________________________________________ England will now play either Russia or Croatia in the World Cup 2018 semi-finals on Wednesday 11 July 2018. _______________________________
Why doesn't the football writer want the English football team to have any team to prepare for possibly the biggest game we have had in decades?! (this article was pretty much straight after our quarter final)
He is as mad as Corbyn in his suggestion we should play the game right now!!
Even if we ignore the impracticality of the Croatia Vs Russia game having to finish before it even starts so our game against the winners can start.
This article is also written on the 7th July. He wants the team to play a game now which is on the 11th July. Somehow they have to bend time to make the 11th July immeadiate.
Either that or this professional journalist is employing a widely used use of the word now that is perfectly acceptable and widely understood and not used against him because there is no political benefit.
Admittedly it is more obvious the football journalist doesn't mean right now when he says now but those seeking political advantage can claim to know exactly what was meant.
First two lines of the article under the headline:
"Jeremy Corbyn has said Article 50 must be invoked immediately and that a Leave vote prevailed because of anger against marginalisation and austerity.
He said the result of the poll means the exit clause – Article 50, which would give a two year period for Britain to leave – must be observed as soon as possible in an interview with the BBC"
Labour can only win this if they first abstain on the MV. That leaves 314 Conservatives + Elphicke + Griffiths (after excluding speaker and one deputy)
323 non-Conservatives (after excluding two Deputy Speakers)
Labour + DUP + SNP+ Green have 303.
So it comes down to the Lib Dems, Plaid, Lady Hermon and 5 ex-Labour. Do they benefit from an early election or not?
I think Labour will move a VONC after the MV fails anyway. They should expect to lose, but I think it's worth doing because they need to test the DUP. They say they will support May's government, but it's important to actually make them march through the Aye lobby and do it.
Make sure every Tory knows that the DUP have made themselves the final arbiter of what this government does from now on, not Mrs May.
If the DUP sit on their hands, then a VONC becomes super tight. Either way, win or lose, her party will VONC her straight after, and that she will definitely lose.
Of course, May could avoid all this pain by resigning on Tuesday night, and I think she might.
Even if the DUP abstain, the votes are not there to win.
I remember when Jeremy Hunt was referred to the standards commissioner @HYUFD said that was the end of Hunt's leadership ambitions.
Hunt was cleared but Boris was not.
Hopefully HYUFD will be consistent and say that today is the end of the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions.
"Asked why he'd systematically and flagrantly violated commons standards by not declaring over 50K of income, the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is reported to have made some pompous but irrelevant reference to a Greek poet he once read on Twitter."
Yes - @Alanbrooke if you want to see someone who really believes there are little people (as in the ones who have to pay their taxes/declare things when they have to) - you should watch Boris' apology.
@Topping sorry real life has an irritating habit of getting in the way of blogging
wrt your earlier post
Cameron was under no obligation to call the referendum.
As was pointed out at the time if Leaving was such a potential disaster he should never have called the referendum.
A Labour government is a potential disaster, doesn't mean we shouldn't have general elections.
I remember when Jeremy Hunt was referred to the standards commissioner @HYUFD said that was the end of Hunt's leadership ambitions.
Hunt was cleared but Boris was not.
Hopefully HYUFD will be consistent and say that today is the end of the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions.
Listening to the media reports from across the UK, the views of mps across parties, and the most recent polls it is hard not to see a comprehensive defeat for the deal
However, I am surprised at the extent of support for no deal and that we have to leave.
In addition it does look like a second referendum is losing ground and becoming less likely
Len McCluskey has put the boot in to those in labour seeking another referendum saying it would be a disaster in leave areas
I am surprised how it appears the demand to leave is growing and becoming a majority view
Labour can only win this if they first abstain on the MV. That leaves 314 Conservatives + Elphicke + Griffiths (after excluding speaker and one deputy)
323 non-Conservatives (after excluding two Deputy Speakers)
Labour + DUP + SNP+ Green have 303.
So it comes down to the Lib Dems, Plaid, Lady Hermon and 5 ex-Labour. Do they benefit from an early election or not?
I think Labour will move a VONC after the MV fails anyway. They should expect to lose, but I think it's worth doing because they need to test the DUP. They say they will support May's government, but it's important to actually make them march through the Aye lobby and do it.
Make sure every Tory knows that the DUP have made themselves the final arbiter of what this government does from now on, not Mrs May.
If the DUP sit on their hands, then a VONC becomes super tight. Either way, win or lose, her party will VONC her straight after, and that she will definitely lose.
Of course, May could avoid all this pain by resigning on Tuesday night, and I think she might.
Even if the DUP abstain, the votes are not there to win.
I know, but it becomes terrifyingly close. Real squeaky bum territory.
Cannot imagine whoever takes over from May wanting to spend 3.5 years with the Arlene of Damocles hanging over them, whilst trying to sort out the 14-dimensional chinese finger trap of Brexit.
I remember when Jeremy Hunt was referred to the standards commissioner @HYUFD said that was the end of Hunt's leadership ambitions.
Hunt was cleared but Boris was not.
Hopefully HYUFD will be consistent and say that today is the end of the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions.
I approve of this Officially Sanctioned Usage.
It might give me an excuse to reuse the contents of this tweet when Boris the coward declined to run in the 2016 Tory leadership contest.
I'm told it made a couple of cabinet ministers choke on their drinks.
I remember when Jeremy Hunt was referred to the standards commissioner @HYUFD said that was the end of Hunt's leadership ambitions.
Hunt was cleared but Boris was not.
Hopefully HYUFD will be consistent and say that today is the end of the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions.
I approve of this Officially Sanctioned Usage.
I think it should be standard useage in the Media.
Comments
Choice setermines priorities. Currently the Tories think their internal strife is more interesting than the boring stuff like roads and housing, the things voters actually care about
They just need to engineer a scenario where the deal fails and they "can't possibly vote for no deal" and can just vote to cancel Article 50 as a "last resort".
Of course they'll blame the few in the commons who actually want to leave properly for this.
So the slam dunk is...
Mr Dimbleby said "the idea of an abrupt signing of Article 50 was at odds with suggestions from Tory MEP Daniel Hannan who said it would be better to take our time and develop a strategy."
To which Corbyn "confirmed that it was important to have a strategy but did not disagree with the suggestion that he was calling for an abrupt triggering of Article 50."
So Corbyn was riled up trying to get article 50 triggered there and then but for some reason ends up sounding like he agrees we need a strategy and fails to disagree with the Hannan suggestion of take our time.....?
This demand to get article 50 triggered straight away argument is a little weaker than I thought.
Surely Dimebly just offered him a counter view (if we assume his demand was for it to be immediate) and he halfs agrees with him and offers no argument?!
Did he demand it be done straight away and then suddenly change his mind? it would make more sense considering his response to Dimebly.
They wanted to end free movement for the Wrong Sort, but keep FoM for us and the Right Sort.
And they wanted France and Germany to do exactly what we say, forever.
And May and Corbyn said "okay, I see nothing unreasonable about this request".
Surely Labour should abstain on the Meaningful Vote, as the DUP would then vote with them on the VONC?
MPs will vote to stay in the single market and customs union, we know that now after the big announcement yesterday Morgan and Letwin will propose that to the House using the Grieve amendment soon after the Deal is voted down, if it is voted down
That still looks like displacement activity, as negotiating EFTA/EEA membership can't be done by March 29th,
This is
"We can and should take proactive steps to counteract disruption: make post-Brexit Britain the world’s best location for business and investment; slash corporation tax and the regulatory burden; announce plans to build the world’s most modern infrastructure and best-trained workforce."
We'll do this by March will we?
And in general, we can't even get HS2 started never mind any other infrastructure.
It's just words.
California dreaming...
But if what he is really about is frustrating any meaningful brexit (which is what the evidence suggests to me at the moment) then no I'll be looking elsewhere on the ballot.
Although nobody springs to mind, so I will have to mull that over and get back to you.
I like to assume they aren't stupid enough to believe it themselves but it makes you worry about their customers around sharp objects.
And if it annoys the "nasty ignorant racists who didn't know what they wanted" then it's another victory.
They claim that people didn't know what they wanted when they voted, but then refuse to put no deal on another referendum to try to actually find out. Just remain or almost remain.
I think we can see how effective that line has been.
The mistake was not doing anything useful in those 7 months or indeed in the subsequent 18. We weren’t helped by the EU refusing to discuss anything until we did serve the notice and their subsequent absurd timetabling proposals but we might have sought a consensus on what we wanted across Parliament.
https://twitter.com/BrexitCentral/status/1070636907288293376
It's how politics works.
My own view is that at law the Council decision EUCO1/16 giving the thumbs-up to the Cameron deal is expressly conditional on voting remain (para 4: "It is understood that, should the result of the referendum in the United Kingdom be for it to leave the European Union, the set of arrangements referred to in paragraph 2 above will cease to exist."). That means any Remain would be Premain.
Of course, there is nothing to stop the Council saying "we'll give you Cameremain if you Remain at all", but I daresay I haven't seen if any of the major players have been asked the question, let alone given an answer. Notwithstanding the clear expression of para 4 EUCO16/1, the ECJ would no doubt happily tie itself in knots to find the 'right' answer if the question of interpreting the Council decision were competently referred to it.
But you'll remember the AG said on Tuesday that A50 was revocable only if doing so wasn't abusive. Would the Commission consider (and would the ECJ find) that pulling A50 for a Cameremain was abusive and therefore only Premain was available? Would the ECJ refuse to rule on this in the abstract until A50 was pulled and it was too late? I think the answers are yes, yes and yes.
If pulling A50 means Premain, bear in mind that the total votes cast for Premain were 0. Could the government, Parliament or the electorate bring itself to deliver that?
Some members of the cabinet have been asked to see the PM at 1:30pm
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1070632561783771136
But you try and get an EU supporter to admit any of these could be legitimate reason to vote to leave. It's purely because they were ignorant racists.
As always in this sort of situation, the extreme elements resort to hyperbole. That discredits the rest of the narrative. Unfortunately for Remain the rest of the message was already negative. 'We know better than you cos you is thick' seldom elicits much enthusiasm.
Cameron's hubris by scurrying off to Europe and claiming his rubbish deal was actually pure gold strained even his supporters' powers of gullibility.
And finally FOM. The free trade, no tariff element of the EU remained attractive, but why the insistence on totally open borders as a principle rather than an economic imperative for the individual countries. They'd want some immigration for economic reasons anyway. FOM showed their real intentions - a single state, something of a guilty secret for them. Why be ashamed of it? Why not stick it up as the major selling point?
No guesses needed.
.
That would be very inconvenient.
https://twitter.com/EIWBM_Cat/status/1070400484010328064
Definitely not a wave.
This is all so exciting.
Thank you Brexit.
I love him.
Following the intervention of Standards Commissioner Boris Johnson shall be henceforth known as the disgraced Boris Johnson.
He was totally against Ed Milliband never mind Corbyn.
I suppose if you are ex Labour it can go on for a while.
Long term selling cars is going to be a lot harder.
But the position of the Grieve faction (that a soft brexit is unacceptable because remain is better) is even less appetizing. That interpretation of the referendum result is utterly indefensible. Least not with a straight face.
Labour can only win this if they first abstain on the MV. That leaves 314 Conservatives + Elphicke + Griffiths (after excluding speaker and one deputy)
323 non-Conservatives (after excluding two Deputy Speakers)
Labour + DUP + SNP+ Green have 303.
So it comes down to the Lib Dems, Plaid, Lady Hermon and 5 ex-Labour. Do they benefit from an early election or not?
T.May in June 2018 - Discussing the EU's NI Backstop plan.
"What we’ve seen from the European Commission is an idea, one idea in particular that would effectively put a border down which would separate out Northern Ireland from Great Britain. That’s not right, that’s not acceptable, we’re one United Kingdom,”
G. Cox Nov 2018 - writing about the NI Backstop.
“GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI for goods passing from GB to NI”
So she lied, and she knew she was lying because in order to get a deal together there was no alternative. But she thought by kicking the can as far down the road to the end of the year she would get away with it because of the threat of a No Deal Brexit.
For this fact alone this deal deserves to be voted down, and by a significant majority.
"Disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Boris Johnson."
The Lib Dems are very much anti Brexit, but financially they don't have a pot to piss in, so really wouldn't welcome an early election, so they could go either way.
Make sure every Tory knows that the DUP have made themselves the final arbiter of what this government does from now on, not Mrs May.
If the DUP sit on their hands, then a VONC becomes super tight. Either way, win or lose, her party will VONC her straight after, and that she will definitely lose.
Of course, May could avoid all this pain by resigning on Tuesday night, and I think she might.
wrt your earlier post
Cameron was under no obligation to call the referendum.
As was pointed out at the time if Leaving was such a potential disaster he should never have called the referendum.
"Jeremy Corbyn has said Article 50 must be invoked immediately and that a Leave vote prevailed because of anger against marginalisation and austerity.
He said the result of the poll means the exit clause – Article 50, which would give a two year period for Britain to leave – must be observed as soon as possible in an interview with the BBC"
Hunt was cleared but Boris was not.
Hopefully HYUFD will be consistent and say that today is the end of the disgraced sack of shit and amoral sociopathic snake Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions.
But luckily for him we have BoJo making all around look like paragons of selfless public service.
However, I am surprised at the extent of support for no deal and that we have to leave.
In addition it does look like a second referendum is losing ground and becoming less likely
Len McCluskey has put the boot in to those in labour seeking another referendum saying it would be a disaster in leave areas
I am surprised how it appears the demand to leave is growing and becoming a majority view
Or maybe not,
Cannot imagine whoever takes over from May wanting to spend 3.5 years with the Arlene of Damocles hanging over them, whilst trying to sort out the 14-dimensional chinese finger trap of Brexit.
I'm told it made a couple of cabinet ministers choke on their drinks.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/748471159621095424