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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Beto O’Rourke, third favourite for WH2020, gets closer to putt

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,295

    HYUFD said:

    O'Rourke is not going to be the nominee in 2020, had he won his Senatorial race that would have been a different matter but he lost and no President since WW2 has been elected without being Vice President, a Governor or Senator first with the exception of Eisenhower who was Supreme Allied Commander in Europe or Trump who was a billionaire and Apprentice celebrity and both were exceptional cases (though O'Rourke does have a billionaire father in law). O'Rourke should aim to win the 2020 Texas Senate race or 2022 Texas Governorship race then he can try for President in 2024. The only way he gets in the ticket in 2020 is in the VP slot.

    Biden, Sanders, Warren and Harris remain the key contenders for the 2020 Democratic nomination in the national and early state polls of Democratic voters

    Biden, Sanders, Warren and Harris looks about as exciting a set of change candidates as the list to replace Theresa May.....
    Don't think you are part of the target demographic, somehow...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited November 2018
    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Waiting for someone to blame Remainers.
  • DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Beto: terrible value here. Simply, has done nothing other than slightly outperformed expectations against a weak opponent. Remember when you watched Obama introduce Kerry; remember how your spine tingled when he said "there's no red america and no blue america... there's the United States of America". Yeah, Beto's not got that. Sell.

    Kristen: ok value, no more. I like her. I don't think she has mass appeal.

    Amy: probably worth a small punt. She'd be excellent in the debates, but there's a better than even chance she won't make it that far.

    Sherrod: pile on. Won a swing state by a big margin. Is economically populist without being obviously racist, corrupt or crazy. I think he'd be terrible for America, but he's hugely mispriced.
    "I think he'd be terrible for America"

    Surely a shoo-in then?
    He's popular in all the areas Trump won by surprise: Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin.

    He'd probably walk the Presidency. But, like Trump, he thinks America's problems are caused by free trade. (There's a certain irony here: populists in the UK think their country needs more free trade; those in the US think theirs needs a lot less.)
    Free Trade is a particularly British fetish, conveniently forgetting that we benefitted from it by pointing guns at people.

    I am not convinced that the average Populist voter is very keen on it, whether Corbynite or Farageist. It is more a favoirite of the metropolitan elite wolves in sheeps clothing.
    Free trade worked very well for us and then the US when we had strong competitive advantages based on our early adoption of industrialisation and the US adoption of Ford's manufacturing systems. A country which has run a consistent trade deficit since 1979, most of it with those with whom we have the freest trade in the EU, should be giving more thought to it than we usually do.

    As Keynes himself pointed out those who espouse economic ideas are all too often in thrall to some dead economist, in this case Adam Smith. Free trade with those who aspire to a far lower standard of living than we currently enjoy and are rather less particular about either pollution or H&S is not necessarily to our advantage.
    I'm curious as to when the TV and radio stopped reporting the trade balance.

    Some time in the 1990s at a guess.

    Twenty years of continuous trade deficits are easy to ignore if nobody is giving them any prominence.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936


    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    Good lord, that second tweet. Don't they remember how oppressive living in Eastern Europe was? You needed an exit visa in a lot of those places for starters.

    And now those people don't need visas.

    And we will.

    That's the point.
    So you're saying that British people will need exit visas to leave this country are you ?
    Na, Scott was correcting me being an idiot. :p
  • TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,295

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Gather Matthew Hedges has landed back in the UK. What next, I wonder.

    Complete his PhD presumably...
    Need to as he is crap at his chosen career of spying.
    If he wanted to be a top spy he should have gone to Cambridge, we’ve produced the world’s finest spies, cf Christopher Steele as the most recent example.

    Or perhaps not...
    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/417535-questions-grow-about-fbi-vetting-of-christopher-steeles-russia-expertise
  • TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Testify, not like they weren’t warned.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/722391453599723520?s=21
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676
    What are they up to? A reluctant referendum explains it. Can’t see what else.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
  • Very significant that some one like Fallon is calling for a delay to Brexit. Once the sanctity of 29/3/19 goes the sheer obviousness of a delay to get a better deal will be overwhelming. We can add two months to A50 while still missing the EP elections. Fallon's intervention comes the day after Starmer made a big rhetorical move on A50 extension and May doubled down on 29/3/19. Which is another sign she's lost it and needs to go and go quickly.

    If senior but non front bench folk keep chipping away at this ' sanctity ' thing re 29/3/19 the dam will break as the obviousness of a tactical extension becomes overwhelming. One to watch in the background I think.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202
    edited November 2018

    Very significant that some one like Fallon is calling for a delay to Brexit. Once the sanctity of 29/3/19 goes the sheer obviousness of a delay to get a better deal will be overwhelming. We can add two months to A50 while still missing the EP elections. Fallon's intervention comes the day after Starmer made a big rhetorical move on A50 extension and May doubled down on 29/3/19. Which is another sign she's lost it and needs to go and go quickly.

    If senior but non front bench folk keep chipping away at this ' sanctity ' thing re 29/3/19 the dam will break as the obviousness of a tactical extension becomes overwhelming. One to watch in the background I think.

    Extension for what? There is no other Deal beyond permanent Single Market and/or Customs Union the EU will consider?
  • Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Gather Matthew Hedges has landed back in the UK. What next, I wonder.

    Complete his PhD presumably...
    Need to as he is crap at his chosen career of spying.
    If he wanted to be a top spy he should have gone to Cambridge, we’ve produced the world’s finest spies, cf Christopher Steele as the most recent example.

    Or perhaps not...
    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/417535-questions-grow-about-fbi-vetting-of-christopher-steeles-russia-expertise
    The author is John Solomon a pro Trump spinner of fake news.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/01/17/staffers-at-the-hill-press-management-about-the-work-of-john-solomon/?utm_term=.b201740c9145
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    O'Rourke is not going to be the nominee in 2020, had he won his Senatorial race that would have been a different matter but he lost and no President since WW2 has been elected without being Vice President, a Governor or Senator first with the exception of Eisenhower who was Supreme Allied Commander in Europe or Trump who was a billionaire and Apprentice celebrity and both were exceptional cases (though O'Rourke does have a billionaire father in law). O'Rourke should aim to win the 2020 Texas Senate race or 2022 Texas Governorship race then he can try for President in 2024. The only way he gets in the ticket in 2020 is in the VP slot.

    Biden, Sanders, Warren and Harris remain the key contenders for the 2020 Democratic nomination in the national and early state polls of Democratic voters

    Biden, Sanders, Warren and Harris looks about as exciting a set of change candidates as the list to replace Theresa May.....
    Don't think you are part of the target demographic, somehow...
    Why? I'd be a Democrat in the US. Partly because I find Republican gerrymandering utterly egregious.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    I note Fabian Picardo absolubtely ripped the BBC to shreds this morning on their complete failure to present the Gibraltar situation accurately.
    Certainly a politician living in the real world.
  • Mr. HYUFD, as Mr. Jonathan indicated, a second referendum is a possibility.

    The court case is interesting. The Commons, if the case goes a certain way, *could* vote to just revoke Article 50.

    That would create quite the response, though.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    Exit visas? Give over, Scott.

    No

    Read the thread. People from former Eastern European states (some of whom had exit visas in the past) will have greater freedom of movement than we will.
    A 28 year old Estonian, who would have been born a citizen of the USSR, has the unqualified right to live and work in 27 EU countries. A 28 year old British citizen will soon enjoy those rights in exactly 2 countries. And for what?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202

    HYUFD said:

    I wonder when the Brexiteers are going to realise that they're increasing losing any chance of Brexit at all....

    The default is we fall out of the EU next March, they are happy with that since at least 40 MPs have them have said publicly trading on WTO terms is better than remaining/any deal.

    Turns out Brexit means Brexit.
    Except with only 32% backing No Deal with Survation it likely means either permanent Single Market and Customs Union soon enough or EUref2 and Remain
    We don’t run this country by opinion poll.

    Plus there’s no guarantee we can revoke/extend Article 50.

    Who knows, Spain might demand Gibraltar as the price for extending/revoking A50, every country has a veto in that situation
    EUref2 could be held before March in a month, see Greece and if Remain beat No Deal end of process. Spain cannot veto the revoking of Article 50 and even Spain only wants joint sovereignty not full sovereignty over Gibraltar
  • malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Gather Matthew Hedges has landed back in the UK. What next, I wonder.

    Complete his PhD presumably...
    Need to as he is crap at his chosen career of spying.
    If he wanted to be a top spy he should have gone to Cambridge, we’ve produced the world’s finest spies, cf Christopher Steele as the most recent example.
    Surely if you can name them, they weren't that successful???
    That's the thing. There was tell of an incompetent Oxford spy ring that was nicked about 10 minutes after it was formed, but some have speculated there may have been another that escaped detection, and this is why Moscow was relaxed about unnecessarily blowing Burgess and Philby when only Maclean had been detected.

    But given the sterling work Oxford men like Cameron and Boris have performed towards Moscow's goal of breaking up the EU, you have to wonder why they bother recruiting agents at all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202

    HYUFD said:

    O'Rourke is not going to be the nominee in 2020, had he won his Senatorial race that would have been a different matter but he lost and no President since WW2 has been elected without being Vice President, a Governor or Senator first with the exception of Eisenhower who was Supreme Allied Commander in Europe or Trump who was a billionaire and Apprentice celebrity and both were exceptional cases (though O'Rourke does have a billionaire father in law). O'Rourke should aim to win the 2020 Texas Senate race or 2022 Texas Governorship race then he can try for President in 2024. The only way he gets in the ticket in 2020 is in the VP slot.

    Biden, Sanders, Warren and Harris remain the key contenders for the 2020 Democratic nomination in the national and early state polls of Democratic voters

    I remember someone posted on here a link to a poll that showed Cruz, surprisingly, had outperformed when it came to newcomers to Texas when the expectation was it was people who were migrating to Texas who were partly responsible for turning the state more purple.

    If that is the case, then it maybe that the GOP in states such as Texas and Florida, which are low tax, might have more structural protection due to these new voters than is assumed. It also raises the question as to whether the recent SALT changes will accelerate internal migration in the States and the flight from high tax to low tax states.

    As an aside, I also wonder whether some of the weakness of the GOP in the House in areas such as Orange County in CA and New Jersey / New York is also being driven by the internal migration issue. Seems to me that, if you are fleeing a state because of high taxes, you are more likely to vote for the GOP.
    Florida in particular is turning GOP though non Cuban Hispanics help Texas Democrats
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Hartlepool want a best of three

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3443568/ukip-fight-hartlepool-paul-nuttall-campaign/
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I wonder when the Brexiteers are going to realise that they're increasing losing any chance of Brexit at all....

    The default is we fall out of the EU next March, they are happy with that since at least 40 MPs have them have said publicly trading on WTO terms is better than remaining/any deal.

    Turns out Brexit means Brexit.
    Except with only 32% backing No Deal with Survation it likely means either permanent Single Market and Customs Union soon enough or EUref2 and Remain
    We don’t run this country by opinion poll.

    Plus there’s no guarantee we can revoke/extend Article 50.

    Who knows, Spain might demand Gibraltar as the price for extending/revoking A50, every country has a veto in that situation
    EUref2 could be held before March in a month, see Greece and if Remain beat No Deal end of process. Spain cannot veto the revoking of Article 50 and even Spain only wants joint sovereignty not full sovereignty over Gibraltar
    Joint sovereignty? What did the people of Gibraltar think about that the last time they were asked?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202

    Mr. HYUFD, as Mr. Jonathan indicated, a second referendum is a possibility.

    The court case is interesting. The Commons, if the case goes a certain way, *could* vote to just revoke Article 50.

    That would create quite the response, though.

    As a last resort a No Deal Leave v Remain referendum in January or February is possible which Remain likely wins
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,700
    edited November 2018
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I wonder when the Brexiteers are going to realise that they're increasing losing any chance of Brexit at all....

    The default is we fall out of the EU next March, they are happy with that since at least 40 MPs have them have said publicly trading on WTO terms is better than remaining/any deal.

    Turns out Brexit means Brexit.
    Except with only 32% backing No Deal with Survation it likely means either permanent Single Market and Customs Union soon enough or EUref2 and Remain
    We don’t run this country by opinion poll.

    Plus there’s no guarantee we can revoke/extend Article 50.

    Who knows, Spain might demand Gibraltar as the price for extending/revoking A50, every country has a veto in that situation
    EUref2 could be held before March in a month, see Greece and if Remain beat No Deal end of process. Spain cannot veto the revoking of Article 50 and even Spain only wants joint sovereignty not full sovereignty over Gibraltar
    They have different legislations.

    I mean a few weeks ago you thought it could be done via a backbench bill, which was epically wrong.

    It needs to be proposed by the government and given government time, you don’t think Mrs May gets defenestrated if she tried it?

    I mean you really think a Tory PM tries to cede sovereignty of The Rock?

    Are you even a Tory?
  • Mr. Topping, it's a Remainer who 'negotiated' a deal so good the EU love it, Labour oppose it, and both pro-EU and EU-sceptical Conservatives detest it.

    If someone's offered a choice between ham or cheese in their sandwiches and opts for ham, only to find the bread contains stones and the ham is green, I'd be inclined to blame the person who made the sandwich rather than the person who made the order.

    Castigating those sinners who cast their votes in a heretical manner, denouncing them and demanding they recant, is not necessarily going to persuade them of your perspective.
  • Isn't that just a recognition of publicly available figures? I came up with a similar number yesterday.
  • Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,202
    edited November 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I wonder when the Brexiteers are going to realise that they're increasing losing any chance of Brexit at all....

    The default is we fall out of the EU next March, they are happy with that since at least 40 MPs have them have said publicly trading on WTO terms is better than remaining/any deal.

    Turns out Brexit means Brexit.
    Except with only 32% backing No Deal with Survation it likely means either permanent Single Market and Customs Union soon enough or EUref2 and Remain
    We don’t run this country by opinion poll.

    Plus there’s no guarantee we can revoke/extend Article 50.

    Who knows, Spain might demand Gibraltar as the price for extending/revoking A50, every country has a veto in that situation
    EUref2 could be held before March in a month, see Greece and if Remain beat No Deal end of process. Spain cannot veto the revoking of Article 50 and even Spain only wants joint sovereignty not full sovereignty over Gibraltar
    They have different legislations.

    I mean a few weeks ago you thought it could be done via a backbench bill, which was epically wrong.

    It needs to be proposed by the government and given government time, you don’t think Mrs May gets defenestrated if she tried it?
    It is not impossible it could be done by motion or amendment, even most Tory MPs oppose No Deal and even May has now talked of No Brexit at all being a possibility. She may persist with her Deal the DUP VONC and we get a general election and Corbyn becomes PM and we end up with permanent Customs Union anyway
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited November 2018

    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
    Fake news. They (No. 10) were told by Labour MPs they'd loose by 150.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100155/excl-number-10-chief-begs-labour-mps-back
  • RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I wonder when the Brexiteers are going to realise that they're increasing losing any chance of Brexit at all....

    The default is we fall out of the EU next March, they are happy with that since at least 40 MPs have them have said publicly trading on WTO terms is better than remaining/any deal.

    Turns out Brexit means Brexit.
    Except with only 32% backing No Deal with Survation it likely means either permanent Single Market and Customs Union soon enough or EUref2 and Remain
    We don’t run this country by opinion poll.

    Plus there’s no guarantee we can revoke/extend Article 50.

    Who knows, Spain might demand Gibraltar as the price for extending/revoking A50, every country has a veto in that situation
    EUref2 could be held before March in a month, see Greece and if Remain beat No Deal end of process. Spain cannot veto the revoking of Article 50 and even Spain only wants joint sovereignty not full sovereignty over Gibraltar
    Joint sovereignty? What did the people of Gibraltar think about that the last time they were asked?
    The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Takes a long time, and is generally a pain in the bum.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Mr. Topping, it's a Remainer who 'negotiated' a deal so good the EU love it, Labour oppose it, and both pro-EU and EU-sceptical Conservatives detest it.

    If someone's offered a choice between ham or cheese in their sandwiches and opts for ham, only to find the bread contains stones and the ham is green, I'd be inclined to blame the person who made the sandwich rather than the person who made the order.

    Castigating those sinners who cast their votes in a heretical manner, denouncing them and demanding they recant, is not necessarily going to persuade them of your perspective.

    Bingo! A remainer-blamer. Knew it wouldn't be long.

    And as for persuading them, I don't go out into the park and shout at the slugs to stop eating the leaves, why would I expect to persuade a Brexiter to do or think anything?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Isn't that just a recognition of publicly available figures? I came up with a similar number yesterday.
    96 Tory MPs against ?, 1 LD for (Lloyd), 2 Labour for (Flint, Mann)

    so if we pair the rebels off, we get net 92 Tories against.

    197 I make it. So 150 would indicate more Lab rebels (Not sure who) and/or the Gov't peeling some back to their cause.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    So you're saying that British people will need exit visas to leave this country are you ?

    Slow hand clap for the second person unable to read the thread
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Wait so everyone who voted for Tony Blair is a war criminal ?

  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Freedom of movement means that you can, at a mere whim, move the family at will, zap, Tuesday we're in France, shit it's raining, let's go work in Spain, god, too hot, ciao Italy. Who has time for additional paperwork?
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:



    Look around you. The fabric of our society is already broken, ripped to shreds. Nastiness, spite and anger is already here.

    Brexit has caused the nation to retch up a great deal of putrid nationalist bile. And there is no swallowing it back down now.

    The Yugoslav civil war started with a punch up at a wedding reception...
    sounds like a fake story to me,,,,
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    So having voted Conservative in 2010 you are personally responsible for the hundreds of billions that George Osborne borrowed over what he said he would ?

    You'll need to take a cheque for £20k payable to HMRC down to your local tax office :wink:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Topping, it's a Remainer who 'negotiated' a deal so good the EU love it, Labour oppose it, and both pro-EU and EU-sceptical Conservatives detest it.

    If someone's offered a choice between ham or cheese in their sandwiches and opts for ham, only to find the bread contains stones and the ham is green, I'd be inclined to blame the person who made the sandwich rather than the person who made the order.

    Castigating those sinners who cast their votes in a heretical manner, denouncing them and demanding they recant, is not necessarily going to persuade them of your perspective.

    Bingo! A remainer-blamer. Knew it wouldn't be long.

    And as for persuading them, I don't go out into the park and shout at the slugs to stop eating the leaves, why would I expect to persuade a Brexiter to do or think anything?
    Yes, another leaver utterly unable to take responsibility for their role in this mess.

    It's always someone else's fault.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    RobD said:

    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
    Fake news. They (No. 10) were told by Labour MPs they'd loose by 150.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100155/excl-number-10-chief-begs-labour-mps-back
    That seems to be the general expectation. In which case my question stands - why on earth is the government pressing ahead with a proposal that everyone involved knows is heading for a humiliating defeat?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,295

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Gather Matthew Hedges has landed back in the UK. What next, I wonder.

    Complete his PhD presumably...
    Need to as he is crap at his chosen career of spying.
    If he wanted to be a top spy he should have gone to Cambridge, we’ve produced the world’s finest spies, cf Christopher Steele as the most recent example.

    Or perhaps not...
    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/417535-questions-grow-about-fbi-vetting-of-christopher-steeles-russia-expertise
    The author is John Solomon a pro Trump spinner of fake news.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/01/17/staffers-at-the-hill-press-management-about-the-work-of-john-solomon/?utm_term=.b201740c9145
    Indeed - but anyone skewered by such a lowlife can hardly be classed as a 'top spy'.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    John_M said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Freedom of movement means that you can, at a mere whim, move the family at will, zap, Tuesday we're in France, shit it's raining, let's go work in Spain, god, too hot, ciao Italy. Who has time for additional paperwork?
    No doubt you'll still be doing tons of paperwork each time you move.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Wait so everyone who voted for Tony Blair is a war criminal ?

    Everyone who voted for Tony Blair is complicit in going to war in Iraq. And Sure Start. They voted for him, he did that. It's how it works.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
    Fake news. They (No. 10) were told by Labour MPs they'd loose by 150.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100155/excl-number-10-chief-begs-labour-mps-back
    That seems to be the general expectation. In which case my question stands - why on earth is the government pressing ahead with a proposal that everyone involved knows is heading for a humiliating defeat?
    Because perhaps they think the vote will be closer than what Labour MPs think?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
    I sincerely hope it will be visa free for however long. But can you or I be sure?
  • NEW: At European Court just now, lawyer for EU Council agrees that UK’s revocation of Article 50 notice “should not be excluded” by the Court.

    Important concession suggesting that, in view of EU27, we DO have right-to-revoke the #Brexit notice.

    — Chris Leslie (@ChrisLeslieMP) 27 November 2018

    Has the EU changed it's tune on revoking A50?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
    I sincerely hope it will be visa free for however long. But can you or I be sure?
    No, but i'd rate it between highly likely and almost certain.
  • RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
    Thats what they've said. There might well be a need down the road to complete online a pre-arrival form - like the US or Australia currently (both of which receive substantial numbers of British visitors) - but when it comes to Europe, its the end of days apparently....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Wait so everyone who voted for Tony Blair is a war criminal ?

    Everyone who voted for Tony Blair is complicit in going to war in Iraq. And Sure Start. They voted for him, he did that. It's how it works.
    Yet the poor souls who voted for Angus MacNeil didn't even get to check in..

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1548056/MP-behind-honours-row-admits-drunken-hotel-romp-with-girls.html
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    So having voted Conservative in 2010 you are personally responsible for the hundreds of billions that George Osborne borrowed over what he said he would ?

    You'll need to take a cheque for £20k payable to HMRC down to your local tax office :wink:
    Jeez another one who doesn't understand how our country works. Not surprising, that said, as the ardent Brexit-o-wankers didn't even realise where Calais was.

    Yes, in answer to your question. I voted Conservative in 2010 so all the subsequent enacted policies I am partly responsible for.
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    The remainers signed up to all the stuff we can't get out of.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited November 2018


    Has the EU changed it's tune on revoking A50?

    Not sure that's consistent with the other tweets on the proceedings.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,295
    edited November 2018

    Mr. Topping, it's a Remainer who 'negotiated' a deal so good the EU love it, Labour oppose it, and both pro-EU and EU-sceptical Conservatives detest it.

    If someone's offered a choice between ham or cheese in their sandwiches and opts for ham, only to find the bread contains stones and the ham is green, I'd be inclined to blame the person who made the sandwich rather than the person who made the order.

    Castigating those sinners who cast their votes in a heretical manner, denouncing them and demanding they recant, is not necessarily going to persuade them of your perspective.

    Just wait for the shit sandwich you get presented with as an alternative, Mr.D.

    In any event, have you forgotten your Dr. Seuss ?

    ...If you will let me be
    I will try them
    You will see
    Say!
    I like green eggs and ham!
    I do!! I like them, Sam-I-am!
    And I would eat them in a boat!
    And I would eat them with a goat...
    And I will eat them in the rain
    And in the dark. And on a train
    And in a car. And in a tree
    They are so good, so good, you see!...
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Pulpstar said:

    I note Fabian Picardo absolubtely ripped the BBC to shreds this morning on their complete failure to present the Gibraltar situation accurately.
    Certainly a politician living in the real world.

    Picardo's `real world' is about the size of a municipal park in a UK metropolitan borough....., I dont blame him for fighting.hard to be heard...look what the Conservatives did to Hong Kong's voters when faced with a neighbour who wanted it back who had big trading potential....Gib folk should be fearful of vague Tory promises.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746

    NEW: At European Court just now, lawyer for EU Council agrees that UK’s revocation of Article 50 notice “should not be excluded” by the Court.

    Important concession suggesting that, in view of EU27, we DO have right-to-revoke the #Brexit notice.

    — Chris Leslie (@ChrisLeslieMP) 27 November 2018

    Has the EU changed it's tune on revoking A50?

    They’re arguing it needs unanimous approval by the council so can’t be purely unilateral.
  • Scott_P said:

    So you're saying that British people will need exit visas to leave this country are you ?

    Slow hand clap for the second person unable to read the thread
    We'll take that as an acknowledgement that you made an idiotic comment.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited November 2018
    RobD said:

    John_M said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Freedom of movement means that you can, at a mere whim, move the family at will, zap, Tuesday we're in France, shit it's raining, let's go work in Spain, god, too hot, ciao Italy. Who has time for additional paperwork?
    No doubt you'll still be doing tons of paperwork each time you move.
    My tongue was firmly in cheek. I've been an emigrant ex-pat guestarbeiter in both the EU (pre-EU per se) and the Anglosphere. Unless you're Dura's itinerant singleton, moving countries once you have a family is fucking hard work, and as evidenced by the numbers, Brits will generally move elsewhere in the Anglosphere rather than Europe.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Xenon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    The remainers signed up to all the stuff we can't get out of.
    So remainers should pay the £39Bn between them ?
  • TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
    I sincerely hope it will be visa free for however long. But can you or I be sure?
    I guess it rather depends on whether they want to decimate their tourist industry, don't you think?

    Anyway, this continues the confusion between 'freedom of movement' with 'visa-free travel' - which we had long before we joined the EU.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
    I sincerely hope it will be visa free for however long. But can you or I be sure?
    No, but i'd rate it between highly likely and almost certain.
    Same here. But Rob it is analogous to the headlines of "UK unlikely to starve". Well of course we won't but just to be asking the question shows the absolute state we're in.
  • TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Perhaps you can link to where it says we will need a visa to 'pop over to France'.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Wait so everyone who voted for Tony Blair is a war criminal ?

    Everyone who voted for Tony Blair is complicit in going to war in Iraq. And Sure Start. They voted for him, he did that. It's how it works.
    I retrospectively claim credit for winning the Falklands war. Go me.
  • RobD said:

    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
    Fake news. They (No. 10) were told by Labour MPs they'd loose by 150.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100155/excl-number-10-chief-begs-labour-mps-back
    That seems to be the general expectation. In which case my question stands - why on earth is the government pressing ahead with a proposal that everyone involved knows is heading for a humiliating defeat?
    Having struck the deal they must put it to Parliament and argue for it strenuously, if only to demonstrate to the EU that it won't fly.

    But I don't expect the EU will renegotiate, either to remove the backstop or to go to an EFTA-type deal. Far better to leave Britain to its psychiatric crisis and deal with it when it has some idea what it actually wants as opposed to doesn't want.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Xenon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    The remainers signed up to all the stuff we can't get out of.
    Oh god have you managed to sneak a phone into the classroom while you're doing lost time during playtime?

    The remainers and the leavers voted in the government which signed up to all the stuff we can't are just about to get out of.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
    Fake news. They (No. 10) were told by Labour MPs they'd loose by 150.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100155/excl-number-10-chief-begs-labour-mps-back
    That seems to be the general expectation. In which case my question stands - why on earth is the government pressing ahead with a proposal that everyone involved knows is heading for a humiliating defeat?
    Because perhaps they think the vote will be closer than what Labour MPs think?
    How many Tory MPs are now publicly committed to vote against the deal? It must be close to 100.

    And how many opposition MPs are publicly committed to vote in favour? It must be close to 0.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
    I sincerely hope it will be visa free for however long. But can you or I be sure?
    No, but i'd rate it between highly likely and almost certain.
    Same here. But Rob it is analogous to the headlines of "UK unlikely to starve". Well of course we won't but just to be asking the question shows the absolute state we're in.
    Both stories are fear-mongering. Anyway, fear not... it's been mentioned elsewhere on this thread that there is actually an agreement on this subject.

  • Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    Good lord, that second tweet. Don't they remember how oppressive living in Eastern Europe was? You needed an exit visa in a lot of those places for starters.

    And now those people don't need visas.

    And we will.

    That's the point.
    So you're saying that British people will need exit visas to leave this country are you ?
    British people won't need exit visas to leave unless we get the unlikely combination of No Deal and TMay still being PM.
  • NEW: At European Court just now, lawyer for EU Council agrees that UK’s revocation of Article 50 notice “should not be excluded” by the Court.

    Important concession suggesting that, in view of EU27, we DO have right-to-revoke the #Brexit notice.

    — Chris Leslie (@ChrisLeslieMP) 27 November 2018

    Has the EU changed it's tune on revoking A50?
    They’re arguing it needs unanimous approval by the council so can’t be purely unilateral.

    So is Chris Leslie saying we do have the right to revoke A50, just not unilaterally?
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471
    TGOHF said:

    Xenon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    The remainers signed up to all the stuff we can't get out of.
    So remainers should pay the £39Bn between them ?
    Well at least they should stop bleating about the difficulties of extracting ourselves from the mess they left us in against the wishes of the majority.
  • NEW: At European Court just now, lawyer for EU Council agrees that UK’s revocation of Article 50 notice “should not be excluded” by the Court.

    Important concession suggesting that, in view of EU27, we DO have right-to-revoke the #Brexit notice.

    — Chris Leslie (@ChrisLeslieMP) 27 November 2018

    Has the EU changed it's tune on revoking A50?
    They’re arguing it needs unanimous approval by the council so can’t be purely unilateral.

    Is Chris Leslie there? Other reports seem very different:

    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1067351121587523584
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
    Fake news. They (No. 10) were told by Labour MPs they'd loose by 150.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100155/excl-number-10-chief-begs-labour-mps-back
    That seems to be the general expectation. In which case my question stands - why on earth is the government pressing ahead with a proposal that everyone involved knows is heading for a humiliating defeat?
    Because perhaps they think the vote will be closer than what Labour MPs think?
    How many Tory MPs are now publicly committed to vote against the deal? It must be close to 100.

    And how many opposition MPs are publicly committed to vote in favour? It must be close to 0.
    Exactly, closer than 150 ;)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    RobD said:

    So why are they pressing ahead with the vote? The usual response to a situation like this would be to pull the proposal.
    Fake news. They (No. 10) were told by Labour MPs they'd loose by 150.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/100155/excl-number-10-chief-begs-labour-mps-back
    That seems to be the general expectation. In which case my question stands - why on earth is the government pressing ahead with a proposal that everyone involved knows is heading for a humiliating defeat?
    Having struck the deal they must put it to Parliament and argue for it strenuously, if only to demonstrate to the EU that it won't fly.

    But I don't expect the EU will renegotiate, either to remove the backstop or to go to an EFTA-type deal. Far better to leave Britain to its psychiatric crisis and deal with it when it has some idea what it actually wants as opposed to doesn't want.
    May's approach has always been subtractive - a carcass - of whichboth sides have taken their pick until there are only the offal and gizzards left.

    A bolder stance would have been that we are heading to WTO well prepared but we might be prepared to add on anything the EU can agree on as a bonus.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    If she loses the vote by a landslide the clamour for a second referendum will surely become irresistable. If this is the establishment reasserting the natural order of things then good for the establishment. If we can't rely on them to save us from eviserating ourselves what's the point of them?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Pulpstar said:

    I note Fabian Picardo absolubtely ripped the BBC to shreds this morning on their complete failure to present the Gibraltar situation accurately.
    Certainly a politician living in the real world.

    Picardo's `real world' is about the size of a municipal park in a UK metropolitan borough....., I dont blame him for fighting.hard to be heard...look what the Conservatives did to Hong Kong's voters when faced with a neighbour who wanted it back who had big trading potential....Gib folk should be fearful of vague Tory promises.
    OMG not HK now.

    Hong Kong (ex the Island, for the details people) was on a lease which expired. The UK honoured that contract.

    All the Conservatives did to Hong Kong's voters was to comply with their international treaty obligations.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    I make the number around 190. Where is the extra support for the deal coming from in the HoC ? The SDLP, Sinn Fein, the Alliance party of NI and the Socialist Labour party of Gibraltar are all in support to one degree or another - and they have seven abstentions between them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    Wait so everyone who voted for Tony Blair is a war criminal ?

    Everyone who voted for Tony Blair is complicit in going to war in Iraq. And Sure Start. They voted for him, he did that. It's how it works.
    I retrospectively claim credit for winning the Falklands war. Go me.
    Good job. It was touch and go for some of the time.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Perhaps you can link to where it says we will need a visa to 'pop over to France'.
    Who knows?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746


    They’re arguing it needs unanimous approval by the council so can’t be purely unilateral.

    So is Chris Leslie saying we do have the right to revoke A50, just not unilaterally?
    We’ll need to wait for the judgment, but that’s what the EU Council’s lawyers were arguing.
  • RobD said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Takes a long time, and is generally a pain in the bum.
    Also it adds uncertainty to anything you try to do. For example, if you want to get a job, the employer doesn't know how long the visa will take, so they're strongly incentivized to prefer another candidate from a mutually open country, as they can be sure they'll be able to start straight away (or whenever is scheduled).

    And this is the best case, where there are no restrictions over your eligibility. In practice you may need to wedge the job you do into some different, sub-optimal form so that it fits in one of the boxes the bureaucracy understands.
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471
    TOPPING said:

    Xenon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    The remainers signed up to all the stuff we can't get out of.
    Oh god have you managed to sneak a phone into the classroom while you're doing lost time during playtime?

    The remainers and the leavers voted in the government which signed up to all the stuff we can't are just about to get out of.
    You want to give all the blame to leavers with the mess in leaving, but share out the blame for signing up to this stuff equally between the two groups (even though the leavers were opposed the whole time).

    Yeah it's me who is the school kid.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    @TOPPING - I knew there was a very high probability that it would up like this, and I still voted Leave.

    Try not to have a coronary.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Perhaps you can link to where it says we will need a visa to 'pop over to France'.
    Who knows?
    Thankfully, we now know -- http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6402_en.htm
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    Gather Matthew Hedges has landed back in the UK. What next, I wonder.

    Complete his PhD presumably...
    Need to as he is crap at his chosen career of spying.
    If he wanted to be a top spy he should have gone to Cambridge, we’ve produced the world’s finest spies, cf Christopher Steele as the most recent example.

    Or perhaps not...
    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/417535-questions-grow-about-fbi-vetting-of-christopher-steeles-russia-expertise
    The author is John Solomon a pro Trump spinner of fake news.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/01/17/staffers-at-the-hill-press-management-about-the-work-of-john-solomon/?utm_term=.b201740c9145
    Indeed - but anyone skewered by such a lowlife can hardly be classed as a 'top spy'.
    You can skewer anyone with fake news.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Re Visas

    I've never applied for one so don't know what they are like but ...

    If you move home you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move to a different area of the country you will fill in lots of documents
    If you move job you will fill in lots of documents
    If your kids move school you will fill in lots of documents

    So what is so terrible about filling in another document if you move to another country ?

    Yep just popping over to France, what's the number of that solicitor that specialises in visa applications?

    Like that, you mean?
    Surely it'll be visa free for 90 days? Or are the EU really that mad?
    I sincerely hope it will be visa free for however long. But can you or I be sure?
    No, but i'd rate it between highly likely and almost certain.
    Same here. But Rob it is analogous to the headlines of "UK unlikely to starve". Well of course we won't but just to be asking the question shows the absolute state we're in.
    Both stories are fear-mongering. Anyway, fear not... it's been mentioned elsewhere on this thread that there is actually an agreement on this subject.
    Did you see the headline in the Times? "Giant ten-headed crocodile on rampage in Slough"?

    No. You didn't see it because the idea is so preposterous and unlikely that it would be ridiculous to have it as a headline.

    Headlines are usually reserved for things that have some real-world relevance.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Xenon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Xenon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **NOTICE**

    Can all those Brexiters who voted Leave please stop talking about Brexiters in the third person as if they bear no responsibility for what is happening. Those in charge now, those in charge once and now gone, those who voted for it. All the same. No of course you didn't realise it would turn out like this and hoped for EEA/EFTA/Norway Plus/Canada Plus Plus whatever the fuck.

    This absolute shithow is all your fault.

    So please enough of the "they".

    There's a difference between Leavers and Brexiteers.

    As there is a difference between Remainers and EverCloserUnioners.
    Nah. The ballot paper was the ballot paper.
    And we could Leave or Remain.

    But Leaving does not satisfy those who want to create libertarian pirate island while Remaining would not have satisfied those who wanted to create United States of Europe.
    Those who voted Leave, whatever colour horn they wanted the unicorn to have (h/t @rcs1000 ) are responsible. If they didn't realise it would turn out like this then it's worse than I thought. As for Remainers? Who cares, we lost.
    The remainers signed up to all the stuff we can't get out of.
    Oh god have you managed to sneak a phone into the classroom while you're doing lost time during playtime?

    The remainers and the leavers voted in the government which signed up to all the stuff we can't are just about to get out of.
    You want to give all the blame to leavers with the mess in leaving, but share out the blame for signing up to this stuff equally between the two groups (even though the leavers were opposed the whole time).

    Yeah it's me who is the school kid.

    It's democracy, sweetheart. I'm simply saying that this democratic decision is a mind-bogglingly idiotic one and those who voted for it likely to be mind-boggling idiots. You, for example.
  • Miss Vance, in Hitman 2, there is a melee fish weapon.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited November 2018
    tlg86 said:

    @TOPPING - I knew there was a very high probability that it would up like this, and I still voted Leave.

    Try not to have a coronary.

    For there to be order, there must be chaos.

    Great, I'm delighted that you out of seemingly all the xxxxxxxx Leavers have got exactly what you wanted.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Isn't that just a recognition of publicly available figures? I came up with a similar number yesterday.
    96 Tory MPs against ?, 1 LD for (Lloyd), 2 Labour for (Flint, Mann)

    so if we pair the rebels off, we get net 92 Tories against.

    197 I make it. So 150 would indicate more Lab rebels (Not sure who) and/or the Gov't peeling some back to their cause.
    Probably the latter but have you removed the payroll vote from the 96 Conservatives?

    The Stand Up for Brexit web site claims only 57 MPs, for instance.
    https://standup4brexit.com/
This discussion has been closed.