I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I doubt it would resolve things within either Party unless there was a clear-cut win for one side or the other. What would "Remain" mean for example - would we return to the status quo ante bellum (so to speak) so in effect our EU membership as is or would it represent any tacit acceptance of deeper integration down the line?
I fail to see how going back to the unsatisfactory position that caused the referendum will suddenly make everyone satisfied.
I think that making everyone satisfied is an impossible objective. Getting through the current deadlock with some sort of viable result is a more realistic goal.
If the ERG are an impotent porn star who is going to act as fluffer?
Fluffers have become extinct since viagra was available.
I shouldn't ask what a "fluffer" is, should I?
It's more shocking than changing at Baker Street.
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
So how would you propose to define a "satisfactory" position, and how would we get to it?
MY view has always been there are only two credible options - ALL IN or ALL OUT.
The former means the Euro, Schengen and joining with France and Germany to take a leadership role in the EU rather than carping ineffectually on the sidelines. It's credible if not popular or desirable.
The other option is ALL OUT - we don't wish the EU ill, far from it, but we are as apart from it as Russia and there's a useful counterbalance to the notion of an all-pervasive EU.
I've never had an issue with re-joining EFTA but not as it currently stands - we could and would make it a different organisation, a genuine grouping of free trading nation states as a counterbalance to the integrationist EU and perhaps some of the other EU states might feel more comfortable in a new EFTA rather than the old EU.
EFTA, as it is, doesn't work as it maintains Freedom of Movement so it would have to be something else.
The years of obfuscations, of opt outs, rebates and the like, have all been signals we can't or won't be a fit for the EU.
....But if Mrs May’s deal goes down and there isn’t a general election, then what? There will be no hiding places left for the Labour leadership. Mr Corbyn will be confronted with the choice that he has been desperate to avoid....
Whilst that is true, surely it's even more true if there is a GE which ends up putting Corbyn in No 10?
I have say that given how the world recently appears to have been rewarding twats, having met Southgate and found him to be a really nice guy, perhaps being a nice guy doesn’t always mean you finish last.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
So how would you propose to define a "satisfactory" position, and how would we get to it?
MY view has always been there are only two credible options - ALL IN or ALL OUT.
The former means the Euro, Schengen and joining with France and Germany to take a leadership role in the EU rather than carping ineffectually on the sidelines. It's credible if not popular or desirable.
The other option is ALL OUT - we don't wish the EU ill, far from it, but we are as apart from it as Russia and there's a useful counterbalance to the notion of an all-pervasive EU.
I've never had an issue with re-joining EFTA but not as it currently stands - we could and would make it a different organisation, a genuine grouping of free trading nation states as a counterbalance to the integrationist EU and perhaps some of the other EU states might feel more comfortable in a new EFTA rather than the old EU.
EFTA, as it is, doesn't work as it maintains Freedom of Movement so it would have to be something else.
The years of obfuscations, of opt outs, rebates and the like, have all been signals we can't or won't be a fit for the EU.
Sounds like a good result to me. As about the only country, along with Sweden, which has an uninterrupted tradition of Parliamentary democracy we ought..... I say ought........ to be able to provide people with the skills to help to further democratise the organisation.
The Labour leadership has spent many months skilfully, if cynically, ... pretending that it could negotiate all the benefits of membership of the EU while still leaving. We all know this is tripe. For the moment, Labour is just about hanging together around rejection of Mrs May’s deal. This is the common point that can still unite Mr Corbyn, his Remainer MPs and Labour members. The leadership will vote against the deal because it is a “Tory Brexit” and they think that combining with the Moggites in the division lobbies to defeat the government will somehow precipitate an early general election. Remainer Labour MPs will vote against the deal in the hope that doing so will pave the way to a further referendum. But if Mrs May’s deal goes down and there isn’t a general election, then what? There will be no hiding places left for the Labour leadership. Mr Corbyn will be confronted with the choice that he has been desperate to avoid.
Theresa May has made her choices. For others, the agonising has only just begun. It will soon be time for everyone else to take responsibility for fateful decisions of their own.
That's a problem for future Labour.
Unless major changes are made, which I doubt, I look forward to partisans telling us how totally great a new deal which is broadly the same as the current crap deal is.
They might well get it through purely because it will be the second, and last, chance, and so people will accept that it is substantively different.
If the ERG are an impotent porn star who is going to act as fluffer?
Fluffers have become extinct since viagra was available.
I shouldn't ask what a "fluffer" is, should I?
It's more shocking than changing at Baker Street.
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
So how would you propose to define a "satisfactory" position, and how would we get to it?
MY view has always been there are only two credible options - ALL IN or ALL OUT.
The former means the Euro, Schengen and joining with France and Germany to take a leadership role in the EU rather than carping ineffectually on the sidelines. It's credible if not popular or desirable.
The other option is ALL OUT - we don't wish the EU ill, far from it, but we are as apart from it as Russia and there's a useful counterbalance to the notion of an all-pervasive EU.
I've never had an issue with re-joining EFTA but not as it currently stands - we could and would make it a different organisation, a genuine grouping of free trading nation states as a counterbalance to the integrationist EU and perhaps some of the other EU states might feel more comfortable in a new EFTA rather than the old EU.
EFTA, as it is, doesn't work as it maintains Freedom of Movement so it would have to be something else.
The years of obfuscations, of opt outs, rebates and the like, have all been signals we can't or won't be a fit for the EU.
Sounds like a good result to me. As about the only country, along with Sweden, which has an uninterrupted tradition of Parliamentary democracy we ought..... I say ought........ to be able to provide people with the skills to help to further democratise the organisation.
Politics is based on patronage rather than ability in all U.K. political parties, both in candidate selection and how MPs earn promotion. Hardly surprising that those with real ability leave politics to the mediocre and go elsewhere.
If the ERG are an impotent porn star who is going to act as fluffer?
Fluffers have become extinct since viagra was available.
I shouldn't ask what a "fluffer" is, should I?
It's more shocking than changing at Baker Street.
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
If the ERG are an impotent porn star who is going to act as fluffer?
Fluffers have become extinct since viagra was available.
I shouldn't ask what a "fluffer" is, should I?
It's more shocking than changing at Baker Street.
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
If the ERG are an impotent porn star who is going to act as fluffer?
Fluffers have become extinct since viagra was available.
I shouldn't ask what a "fluffer" is, should I?
It's more shocking than changing at Baker Street.
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I am quite sure that we can find someone who suggested prior to the vote that the whole thing would then lead to another vote on remaining.
In fact, I am certain of it because it is a part of the whole 'the establishment will make us vote again until we get the right answer' fear/hope.
If the ERG are an impotent porn star who is going to act as fluffer?
Fluffers have become extinct since viagra was available.
I shouldn't ask what a "fluffer" is, should I?
It's more shocking than changing at Baker Street.
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
If the ERG are an impotent porn star who is going to act as fluffer?
Fluffers have become extinct since viagra was available.
I shouldn't ask what a "fluffer" is, should I?
It's more shocking than changing at Baker Street.
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
Now is the time when someone has the opportunity to make a name for themselves. A sort of 'Speaking for England' (sorry Malc & Big G) moment.
Politics is based on patronage rather than ability in all U.K. political parties, both in candidate selection and how MPs earn promotion. Hardly surprising that those with real ability leave politics to the mediocre and go elsewhere.
Promotion yes up to a point ("I know him and trust him so..." is a powerful motivation), selection not so much IMO.
But I think people have unrealistic expectations of MPs - they are not in general geniuses or dimwits, but reasonably well-informed people trying to navigate their way through multiple complex issues under the full glare of the cameras. They are rarely specialists in a particular area and even when they are they sometimes get it wrong. That's all perfectly normal in most walks of life, but we don't read about it if they're not public figures.
I'm instinctively opposed to another "people's vote", but the ERG do seem determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It might be the only way out.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
I sympathise. My very first post, after a couple of years lurking, was that we may well end up with an AV vote between No Deal, Deal and Remain. My idea was not warmly welcomed at the time, though I was. Justine Bloody Greening nicked that.
I'm instinctively opposed to another "people's vote", but the ERG do seem determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
They don't want any Brexit, they want their Brexit. I get that. They don't have to accept any Brexit. I hope they are prepared to accept everything that might come from that.
I'm instinctively opposed to another "people's vote", but the ERG do seem determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
They don't want any Brexit, they want their Brexit. I get that. They don't have to accept any Brexit. I hope they are prepared to accept everything that might come from that.
The question on the ballot was regarding leaving the European Union. This deal does that, if the ERG votes down May's deal they've betrayed the British public. It trades our MEPs for a transition - suits me, my opinion of "influence" in today's world is that it is overrated.
I'm instinctively opposed to another "people's vote", but the ERG do seem determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
They don't want any Brexit, they want their Brexit. I get that. They don't have to accept any Brexit. I hope they are prepared to accept everything that might come from that.
The question on the ballot was regarding leaving the European Union. This deal does that, if the ERG votes down May's deal they've betrayed the British public.
Oh I agree this deal achieves what the ballot question asked(because it was so open any leave would). But if the ERG would rather remain than this Brexit then so be it. And if no deal is prevented, that becomes an option they will need to consider.
A strong and confident leader would sack Leadsom, Gove and the others but she can't do that.
Indeed. She's not going to morph into a strong leader. But if what the gang of five are holding over her is the threat of a mass stomp-out and she can't give in to their demands, then resignations may happen and if so there will be a battle over how to apportion responsibility and it may be said that one or more of the resignations were asked for, i.e. they were sacked. The feeling that the ERG have got it coming to them isn't niche either. Something's got to break soon.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
I'm instinctively opposed to another "people's vote", but the ERG do seem determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
They don't want any Brexit, they want their Brexit. I get that. They don't have to accept any Brexit. I hope they are prepared to accept everything that might come from that.
The question on the ballot was regarding leaving the European Union. This deal does that, if the ERG votes down May's deal they've betrayed the British public.
Oh I agree this deal achieves what the ballot question asked(because it was so open any leave would). But if they would rather remain than this Brexit then so be it.
So far as the EU goes one of my principle objections to it - that it is impossible to leave is satisfied now. A nation clearly can.
A strong and confident leader would sack Leadsom, Gove and the others but she can't do that.
Indeed. She's not going to morph into a strong leader. But if what the gang of five are holding over her is the threat of a mass stomp-out and she can't give in to their demand
She by definition cannot given them what they want, since it is not within her power. It might be she could, despite what she initially said, try to give it to them, but they obviously think the deal is not good enough so it still relies on the EU playing ball. Which they are renowned for.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I have come to the conclusion that parliament is too bl**dy stupid to do anything. I mean, here we are, hurtling towards a dumb default decision that will hurt us and the EU (but us more so) and they say "It is the will of the people... it is holy writ... we must do it" instead of saying "Hang on a minute, maybe we need to re-open this debate"
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
A strong and confident leader would sack Leadsom, Gove and the others but she can't do that.
Indeed. She's not going to morph into a strong leader. But if what the gang of five are holding over her is the threat of a mass stomp-out and she can't give in to their demands, then resignations may happen and if so there will be a battle over how to apportion responsibility and it may be said that one or more of the resignations were asked for, i.e. they were sacked. The feeling that the ERG have got it coming to them isn't niche either. Something's got to break soon.
Not necessarily. These tensions have been within the Conservative Party for more than 30 years - it hasn't stopped the Party winning elections and governing.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
If the EU wanted to be mischievous, it could say "This is the Deal. Available until 29/3/2019 at 11 pm." Or "Remain - on the basis of Cameron's renegotiation. Also available until 29/3/2019".
Not that they will - the latter offer, anyway.
But wouldn't it put the proverbial chat among les pigeons......
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
Considering you are so vehemently "Leave", I expect you to say that.
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
Considering you are so vehemently "Leave", I expect you to say that.
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
The difference being I have right on my side unless you are advocating a fresh referendum every 2 years or so.
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
Considering you are so vehemently "Leave", I expect you to say that.
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
The difference being I have right on my side unless you are advocating a fresh referendum every 2 years or so.
No. I have right on my side because the picture is so much clearer than 2 years ago.
Even if May is challenged I expect she would get a similar result to that Major got against Redwood in 1995 ie 218 MPs (66%) behind the PM, 89 MPs (27%) voting to topple the PM
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
Considering you are so vehemently "Leave", I expect you to say that.
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
The difference being I have right on my side unless you are advocating a fresh referendum every 2 years or so.
But Richard, if any sort of workable plan for leaving is going to be yelled down by the screams of betrayal...
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
Considering you are so vehemently "Leave", I expect you to say that.
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
The difference being I have right on my side unless you are advocating a fresh referendum every 2 years or so.
No. I have right on my side because the picture is so much clearer than 2 years ago.
Not at all. Until we Actually leave all claims about the consequences are Just smoke and mirrors. Just ad the claims made before the referendum turned out to be.
Please note that we're miles away from a second vote still. The Tory hierarchy (Even May) isn't for it.
According to the Sunday Times May's advisers expect her to lose the first vote but she will wait for the markets to crash on the prospect of No Deal and after they have done so she will then call a second vote
Please note that we're miles away from a second vote still. The Tory hierarchy (Even May) isn't for it.
According to the Sunday Times May's advisers expect her to lose the first vote but she will wait for the markets to crash on the prospect of No Deal and after they have done so she will then call a second vote
Sounds like a good plan. Though doing the same thing without telling the Sunday Times about it might have been an even better plan.
Please note that we're miles away from a second vote still. The Tory hierarchy (Even May) isn't for it.
According to the Sunday Times May's advisers expect her to lose the first vote but she will wait for the markets to crash on the prospect of No Deal and after they have done so she will then call a second vote
The problem comes here if the markets think we'll stay in if the vote is defeated.
If the EU wanted to be mischievous, it could say "This is the Deal. Available until 29/3/2019 at 11 pm." Or "Remain - on the basis of Cameron's renegotiation. Also available until 29/3/2019".
Not that they will - the latter offer, anyway.
But wouldn't it put the proverbial chat among les pigeons......
If they are going to offer anything, I expect it will be "We will unanimously agree to cancel Brexit and the UK agrees to give up the rebate"
From this position, that would actually be a good deal considering the damage of No Deal to both sides.
If the EU wanted to be mischievous, it could say "This is the Deal. Available until 29/3/2019 at 11 pm." Or "Remain - on the basis of Cameron's renegotiation. Also available until 29/3/2019".
Not that they will - the latter offer, anyway.
But wouldn't it put the proverbial chat among les pigeons......
If they are going to offer anything, I expect it will be "We will unanimously agree to cancel Brexit and the UK agrees to give up the rebate"
From this position, that would actually be a good deal considering the damage of No Deal to both sides.
Staying in the EU? Wasn't there a referendum about that recently?
Some of the ERG are so thick they don't understand that the Transition period (retaining all the benefits of the EU for a time limited period) is something that the British Govt requested and the EU conceded. I've found some people claiming it is "indefinite" because the document says we can request it to be extended once until "20XX" (interpreting this to be 2099). The fact that it (an extension) is something that we are obliged to request hasn't stopped them assuming it is a surrender to EU demands. If they don't understand the basic difference between the transition period (a UK request and an EU concession) and the Backstop, then what hope is there that there will ever be a deal that satisfies them? None whatsoever.
OK, so this is Nadine Dorries, but we all knew that...
This is worrying me. The stupidity of one's opponents does not affect the fact that there are many of them, and the unthinking duckspeak of some of the points is impervious to counterargument. Some people are viscerally opposed to a deal of any description with the EU and cannot be placated. There appear to be enough of them to fuck things up. So I think we are in genuine trouble. Happy to be wrong on this one, of course.
Politics is based on patronage rather than ability in all U.K. political parties, both in candidate selection and how MPs earn promotion. Hardly surprising that those with real ability leave politics to the mediocre and go elsewhere.
Promotion yes up to a point ("I know him and trust him so..." is a powerful motivation), selection not so much IMO.
But I think people have unrealistic expectations of MPs - they are not in general geniuses or dimwits, but reasonably well-informed people trying to navigate their way through multiple complex issues under the full glare of the cameras. They are rarely specialists in a particular area and even when they are they sometimes get it wrong. That's all perfectly normal in most walks of life, but we don't read about it if they're not public figures.
Yes I think that's true up to a point Nick but i do think politics has lost something over the past couple of generations, perhaps because so many MPs are now political careerists who are, in general, much younger than their predecessors and have often spent the entire lives in politics. Many politicians of all parties appear to lack any solid belief in anything apart from their own advancement and they find it hard to connect with people outside politics because they have never worked in a "real" job.
Few of the leaders of the late twentieth century would have decided which side to back in the EU debate on the basis of what was best for their personal career - for people such as Roy Jenkins, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath their position was dictated by their fundamental beliefs, it is not imaginable that any of these people would have done a Boris and picked a side casually for career reasons, casting aside any concept of the national interest.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
Considering you are so vehemently "Leave", I expect you to say that.
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
The difference being I have right on my side unless you are advocating a fresh referendum every 2 years or so.
No. I have right on my side because the picture is so much clearer than 2 years ago.
Not at all. Until we Actually leave all claims about the consequences are Just smoke and mirrors. Just ad the claims made before the referendum turned out to be.
If it looks like No Deal, the consequences will be clear before March 2019.
Please note that we're miles away from a second vote still. The Tory hierarchy (Even May) isn't for it.
According to the Sunday Times May's advisers expect her to lose the first vote but she will wait for the markets to crash on the prospect of No Deal and after they have done so she will then call a second vote
The problem comes here if the markets think we'll stay in if the vote is defeated.
Well obviously unless the PM calls EU ref2 and Parliament passes it after the first vote goes down they will have no grounds to do so and the markets will just crash accordingly at the prospect of No Deal
I agree with the header - the ERG aren't a busted flush when it comes to the vote on the deal, but they are apparently exactly that with regard to replacing May. We should know for sure this week.
Gary Streeter's idea (last thread) of a referendum between May's deal and Remain deserves attention - I can see it getting a majority in the Commons, as it brings together all the Remainers plus all the May loyalists. It would infuriate the ERG, but everything infuriates them, so no loss. It would be an interesting test of the theory that Corbyn is a secret Brexiter, since he and everyone else would need to choose between Remain and Just Outside. It would recognise the reality that full-on Brexit just isn't possible unless we accept massive disruption and/or a hard Irish border. But more to the point, it could actually resolve the issue.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Should have known it was sensible people like you and Ian!
And me.... I have been spouting stuff like that for ages - and getting called a "Traitor" for doing it...
Given that 34% of the public currently claim to prefer No Deal in a 3 way question and that the question of Remain was already asked and rejected in 2016 I would suggest that if we were to be limited to a binary question it should be the deal vs no deal. Remain should not be an option.
Considering you are so vehemently "Leave", I expect you to say that.
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
The difference being I have right on my side unless you are advocating a fresh referendum every 2 years or so.
But Richard, if any sort of workable plan for leaving is going to be yelled down by the screams of betrayal...
Of course it will. But it is up to a Government to ignore the extremists on both sides. Both the No Deal brigade and the bad losers calling for a rerun.
Politics is based on patronage rather than ability in all U.K. political parties, both in candidate selection and how MPs earn promotion. Hardly surprising that those with real ability leave politics to the mediocre and go elsewhere.
Promotion yes up to a point ("I know him and trust him so..." is a powerful motivation), selection not so much IMO.
But I think people have unrealistic expectations of MPs - they are not in general geniuses or dimwits, but reasonably well-informed people trying to navigate their way through multiple complex issues under the full glare of the cameras. They are rarely specialists in a particular area and even when they are they sometimes get it wrong. That's all perfectly normal in most walks of life, but we don't read about it if they're not public figures.
Yes I think that's true up to a point Nick but i do think politics has lost something over the past couple of generations, perhaps because so many MPs are now political careerists who are, in general, much younger than their predecessors and have often spent the entire lives in politics. Many politicians of all parties appear to lack any solid belief in anything apart from their own advancement and they find it hard to connect with people outside politics because they have never worked in a "real" job.
Few of the leaders of the late twentieth century would have decided which side to back in the EU debate on the basis of what was best for their personal career - for people such as Roy Jenkins, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath their position was dictated by their fundamental beliefs, it is not imaginable that any of these people would have done a Boris and picked a side casually for career reasons, casting aside any concept of the national interest.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
If the EU wanted to be mischievous, it could say "This is the Deal. Available until 29/3/2019 at 11 pm." Or "Remain - on the basis of Cameron's renegotiation. Also available until 29/3/2019".
Not that they will - the latter offer, anyway.
But wouldn't it put the proverbial chat among les pigeons......
If they are going to offer anything, I expect it will be "We will unanimously agree to cancel Brexit and the UK agrees to give up the rebate"
From this position, that would actually be a good deal considering the damage of No Deal to both sides.
You really don't get this democracy thing at all do you.
Politics is based on patronage rather than ability in all U.K. political parties, both in candidate selection and how MPs earn promotion. Hardly surprising that those with real ability leave politics to the mediocre and go elsewhere.
Promotion yes up to a point ("I know him and trust him so..." is a powerful motivation), selection not so much IMO.
But I think people have unrealistic expectations of MPs - they are not in general geniuses or dimwits, but reasonably well-informed people trying to navigate their way through multiple complex issues under the full glare of the cameras. They are rarely specialists in a particular area and even when they are they sometimes get it wrong. That's all perfectly normal in most walks of life, but we don't read about it if they're not public figures.
Yes I think that's true up to a point Nick but i do think politics has lost something over the past couple of generations, perhaps because so many MPs are now political careerists who are, in general, much younger than their predecessors and have often spent the entire lives in politics. Many politicians of all parties appear to lack any solid belief in anything apart from their own advancement and they find it hard to connect with people outside politics because they have never worked in a "real" job.
Few of the leaders of the late twentieth century would have decided which side to back in the EU debate on the basis of what was best for their personal career - for people such as Roy Jenkins, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath their position was dictated by their fundamental beliefs, it is not imaginable that any of these people would have done a Boris and picked a side casually for career reasons, casting aside any concept of the national interest.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
Agree entirely. Compared to the past we are very poorly served by our politicians.
Politics is based on patronage rather than ability in all U.K. political parties, both in candidate selection and how MPs earn promotion. Hardly surprising that those with real ability leave politics to the mediocre and go elsewhere.
Promotion yes up to a point ("I know him and trust him so..." is a powerful motivation), selection not so much IMO.
But I think people have unrealistic expectations of MPs - they are not in general geniuses or dimwits, but reasonably well-informed people trying to navigate their way through multiple complex issues under the full glare of the cameras. They are rarely specialists in a particular area and even when they are they sometimes get it wrong. That's all perfectly normal in most walks of life, but we don't read about it if they're not public figures.
Yes I think that's true up to a point Nick but i do think politics has lost something over the past couple of generations, perhaps because so many MPs are now political careerists who are, in general, much younger than their predecessors and have often spent the entire lives in politics. Many politicians of all parties appear to lack any solid belief in anything apart from their own advancement and they find it hard to connect with people outside politics because they have never worked in a "real" job.
Few of the leaders of the late twentieth century would have decided which side to back in the EU debate on the basis of what was best for their personal career - for people such as Roy Jenkins, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath their position was dictated by their fundamental beliefs, it is not imaginable that any of these people would have done a Boris and picked a side casually for career reasons, casting aside any concept of the national interest.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
Javid is an Ayn Rand fan.
He'd go to the stake for poorly crafted literature?
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I have come to the conclusion that parliament is too bl**dy stupid to do anything. I mean, here we are, hurtling towards a dumb default decision that will hurt us and the EU (but us more so) and they say "It is the will of the people... it is holy writ... we must do it" instead of saying "Hang on a minute, maybe we need to re-open this debate"
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factor is also necessary and there needs, if you are going to make a change, be a clear destination and a properly worked out plan for how to get there. Not an airy fairy "with one bound we'll be free" nonsense. We're not in a bloody Errol Flynn movie here. The utter failure to come up with a plan is what has doomed the Brexit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
Politics is based on patronage rather than ability in all U.K. political parties, both in candidate selection and how MPs earn promotion. Hardly surprising that those with real ability leave politics to the mediocre and go elsewhere.
Promotion yes up to a point ("I know him and trust him so..." is a powerful motivation), selection not so much IMO.
But I think people have unrealistic expectations of MPs - they are not in general geniuses or dimwits, but reasonably well-informed people trying to navigate their way through multiple complex issues under the full glare of the cameras. They are rarely specialists in a particular area and even when they are they sometimes get it wrong. That's all perfectly normal in most walks of life, but we don't read about it if they're not public figures.
Yes I think that's true up to a point Nick but i do think politics has lost something over the past couple of generations, perhaps because so many MPs are now political careerists who are, in general, much younger than their predecessors and have often spent the entire lives in politics. Many politicians of all parties appear to lack any solid belief in anything apart from their own advancement and they find it hard to connect with people outside politics because they have never worked in a "real" job.
Few of the leaders of the late twentieth century would have decided which side to back in the EU debate on the basis of what was best for their personal career - for people such as Roy Jenkins, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath their position was dictated by their fundamental beliefs, it is not imaginable that any of these people would have done a Boris and picked a side casually for career reasons, casting aside any concept of the national interest.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
Javid is an Ayn Rand fan.
He'd go to the stake for poorly crafted literature?
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
I'm sorry, but that is total nonsense. All you are saying is that you don't agree with the core values of Theresa May, Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid, and that they are not extremist nutters like Corbyn who believes in simplistic solutions. But of course they have core values, in exactly the same way that Harold Macmillan, or Hugh Gaitskell, or RAB Butler, or Harold Wilson, or Jim Callaghan, or Willie Whitelaw, or Denis Healey had core values.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I have come to the conclusion that parliament is too bl**dy stupid to do anything. I mean, here we are, hurtling towards a dumb default decision that will hurt us and the EU (but us more so) and they say "It is the will of the people... it is holy writ... we must do it" instead of saying "Hang on a minute, maybe we need to re-open this debate"
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factor is also necessary and there needs, if you are going to make a change, be a clear destination and a properly worked out plan for how to get there. Not an airy fairy "with one bound we'll be free" nonsense. We're not in a bloody Errol Flynn movie here. The utter failure to come up with a plan is what has doomed the Brexit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
No need to apologise. It is a mild version of what I would have typed. I think I will go and do domestic stuff for a bit.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from.
And when you know where he is coming from is anti-semitism?
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I "
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factor is also necessary and there needs, if you are going to make a change, be a clear destination and a properly worked out plan for how to get there. Not an airy fairy "with one bound we'll be free" nonsense. We're not in a bloody Errol Flynn movie here. The utter failure to come up with a plan is what has doomed the Brexit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
I agree with your comment.
I don't think we should be forced into a Brexit nightmare. Leave is the path to ruin as plotted out by Leavers in a No Deal. It is not just a case of Leaving but finding a way of doing as little damage as possible to the economy and peoples lives.
I am worried about having disruption to my medication! Surely it is a basic fundamental right in an advanced society to keep the supply of medication flowing in peacetime? The ERG are not going to know what has hit them if they drive us into the rocks. Just think of the hundreds of thousands or even millions who could experience interference in their medical care because of their selfish cavalier attitude to other peoples lives. I don't think anyone ever died because of the European Union, Leave on the other hand could have the blood on their hands of many many innocent victims.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I have come to the conclusion that parliament is too bl**dy stupid to do anything. I mean, here we are, hurtling towards a dumb default decision that will hurt us and the EU (but us more so) and they say "It is the will of the people... it is holy writ... we must do it" instead of saying "Hang on a minute, maybe we need to re-open this debate"
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factor is also necessary and there needs, if you are going to make a change, be a clear destination and a properly worked out plan for how to get there. Not an airy fairy "with one bound we'll be free" nonsense. We're not in a bloody Errol Flynn movie here. The utter failure to come up with a plan is what has doomed the Brexit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
That's what you get when you have a thick authoritarian Remainer in charge.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
I'm sorry, but that is total nonsense. All you are saying is that you don't agree with the core values of Theresa May, Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid, and that they are not extremist nutters like Corbyn who believes in simplistic solutions. But of course they have core values, in exactly the same way that Harold Macmillan, or Hugh Gaitskell, or RAB Butler, or Harold Wilson, or Jim Callaghan, or Willie Whitelaw, or Denis Healey had core values.
Perhaps you could enlighten us on what Hunt and Javids core values are?
I was not making a party political point here - you could say the same for many on the Labour side as well, I would be hard put to say what Tom Watson or Yvette cooper really believes.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I "
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factor is also necessary and there needs, if you are going to make a change, be a clear destination and a properly worked out plan for how to get there. Not an airy fairy "with one bound we'll be free" nonsense. We're not in a bloody Errol Flynn movie here. The utter failure to come up with a plan is what has doomed the Brexit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
I agree with your comment.
I don't think we should be forced into a Brexit nightmare. Leave is the path to ruin as plotted out by Leavers in a No Deal. It is not just a case of Leaving but finding a way of doing as little damage as possible to the economy and peoples lives.
I am worried about having disruption to my medication! Surely it is a basic fundamental right in an advanced society to keep the supply of medication flowing in peacetime? The ERG are not going to know what has hit them if they drive us into the rocks. Just think of the hundreds of thousands or even millions who could experience interference in their medical care because of their selfish cavalier attitude to other peoples lives. I don't think anyone ever died because of the European Union, Leave on the other hand could have the blood on their hands of many many innocent victims.
They will say it is all May's fault for not preparing adequately for "no deal". And gloss over the fact that they are prepared to acknowledge that we are not adequately prepared, but should do it anyway.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
I'm sorry, but that is total nonsense. All you are saying is that you don't agree with the core values of Theresa May, Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid, and that they are not extremist nutters like Corbyn who believes in simplistic solutions. But of course they have core values, in exactly the same way that Harold Macmillan, or Hugh Gaitskell, or RAB Butler, or Harold Wilson, or Jim Callaghan, or Willie Whitelaw, or Denis Healey had core values.
Perhaps you could enlighten us on what Hunt and Javids core values are?
I was not making a party political point here - you could say the same for many on the Labour side as well, I would be hard put to say what Tom Watson or Yvette cooper really believes.
Good government, not too much state interference, personal responsibility, fostering a strong economy, fair laws, promoting opportunity, equality of opportunity, a secure nation state, the rule of law.
Much the same as the Conservative politicians of the past I listed, and not really too different from the mainstream Labour politicians of the past, although they would obviously differ on priorities and means.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I have come to the conclusion that parliament is too bl**dy stupid to do anything. I mean, here we are, hurtling towards a dumb default decision that will hurt us and the EU (but us more so) and they say "It is the will of the people... it is holy writ... we must do it" instead of saying "Hang on a minute, maybe we need to re-open this debate"
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factor is also necessary and there needs, if you are going to make a change, be a clear destination and a properly worked out plan for how to get there. Not an airy fairy "with one bound we'll be free" nonsense. We're not in a bloody Errol Flynn movie here. The utter failure to come up with a plan is what has doomed the Brexit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
To apportion your designations still further I'd say 50% fucking morons 70% utter wankers and a full house of complete shits.
I don't think we should be forced into a Brexit nightmare. Leave is the path to ruin as plotted out by Leavers in a No Deal. It is not just a case of Leaving but finding a way of doing as little damage as possible to the economy and peoples lives.
I am worried about having disruption to my medication! Surely it is a basic fundamental right in an advanced society to keep the supply of medication flowing in peacetime? The ERG are not going to know what has hit them if they drive us into the rocks. Just think of the hundreds of thousands or even millions who could experience interference in their medical care because of their selfish cavalier attitude to other peoples lives. I don't think anyone ever died because of the European Union, Leave on the other hand could have the blood on their hands of many many innocent victims.
BiB - I think this is a problem with politics in general (and not just the EU issue). So long as any pain is felt across a broad enough section of the population, then that's fine. We have so many special interest groups who politicians pander to that if you're not one of them you have to suck it up.
Yes, I suspect the EU has never killed anyone. But that doesn't mean we should stay in it. As for our current predicament, I'm really not sure what I'd do if I was an MP. It angers me that we're having this discussion now, when we should have done this a year ago. I guess no parliament can bind its successors, so it's not inconceivable that we could just walk away at a later date (hopefully with some planning - though I wonder if the EU would throw their toys out of the pram if we started to make preparations).
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I "
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
I agree with your comment.
I don't think we should be forced into a Brexit nightmare. Leave is the path to ruin as plotted out by Leavers in a No Deal. It is not just a case of Leaving but finding a way of doing as little damage as possible to the economy and peoples lives.
I am worried about having disruption to my medication! Surely it is a basic fundamental right in an advanced society to keep the supply of medication flowing in peacetime? The ERG are not going to know what has hit them if they drive us into the rocks. Just think of the hundreds of thousands or even millions who could experience interference in their medical care because of their selfish cavalier attitude to other peoples lives. I don't think anyone ever died because of the European Union, Leave on the other hand could have the blood on their hands of many many innocent victims.
They will say it is all May's fault for not preparing adequately for "no deal". And gloss over the fact that they are prepared to acknowledge that we are not adequately prepared, but should do it anyway.
I seem to remember that the several Brexit Secretary's (advocates of Leave) over the last few years have responsibility for this. Given that they claim they were cut out of negotiating because of Ollie Robins, what else have they been doing for the last two years other than receiving their salary? I take a dim view of Leavers who do not clear up their mess.
I just would like to point out that this idea was mine and posted on here, some time before Streeter nicked it.
Lol. I should really make the effort to find the thread, early in 2017 as I recall, when I first suggested this whole fiasco was surely heading for another vote between the deal to exit or remaining; never before or since have I been so derided by the PB regulars.
I'm happy to give you the credit.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
I don't claim it as my original idea! But I was early to suggest on PB that the inbuilt contradictions of the Brexit mandate, such as it was, were likely to lead in that direction. A suggestion at which, being polite, most PB'ers expressed a certain degree of surprise.
Indeed. I wonder whether we'll get one now. Parliament is not exactly covering itself in glory at the moment.
I have come to the conclusion that parliament is too bl**dy stupid to do anything. I mean, here we are, hurtling towards a dumb default decision that will hurt us and the EU (but us more so) and they say "It is the will of the people... it is holy writ... we must do it" instead of saying "Hang on a minute, maybe we need to re-open this debate"
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
I will do the swearing for you. They are fucking morons; some of them are utter wankers and there are also a few total and utter shits.
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factoit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
That's what you get when you have a thick authoritarian Remainer in charge.
Don't be a coward Dickie - stand up for the whole shitshow which you voted for.
That's what you get when you have a thick authoritarian Remainer in charge.
This attitude is precisely why we're heading for the nauseating "people's vote" !
Which attitude? I support the Deal even though it is shit. It is May who has made the Peoples vote more likely by being so.utterly shit at what she does.
That's what you get when you have a thick authoritarian Remainer in charge.
This attitude is precisely why we're heading for the nauseating "people's vote" !
Which attitude? I support the Deal even though it is shit. It is May who has made the Peoples vote more likely by being so.utterly shit at what she does.
OK - Fair enough, I think if the deal is voted down it goes like this
No deal -> Economic disruption -> "People's vote" -> Remain
Hoping I'm online if it happens, to take advantage of prices on the markets (got really lucky with the Lib Dem leadership. I'd backed Swinson just the day before, laid before she announced she wasn't standing, and then backed the Not-Not-Standing candidates as each of them successively dropped out. Was splendid).
That's what you get when you have a thick authoritarian Remainer in charge.
This attitude is precisely why we're heading for the nauseating "people's vote" !
Which attitude? I support the Deal even though it is shit. It is May who has made the Peoples vote more likely by being so.utterly shit at what she does.
All very well but you were an advocate of a Norway/EEA solution, with no restrictions on FoM. It was inconceivable that May could have pursued that route the way the referendum was won.
That's what you get when you have a thick authoritarian Remainer in charge.
This attitude is precisely why we're heading for the nauseating "people's vote" !
Which attitude? I support the Deal even though it is shit. It is May who has made the Peoples vote more likely by being so.utterly shit at what she does.
May has got the most pro Brexit Deal the EU will offer, the only other alternatives they will consider are permanent single market or customs union membership or both.
Comments
A fluffer is a person employed to keep a male porn performer's penis erect on the set. These duties, which do not necessarily involve touching the actors, are considered part of the makeup department. After setting up the desired angle, the director asks the actors to hold position and calls for the fluffer to "fluff" the actors for the shot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluffer
The former means the Euro, Schengen and joining with France and Germany to take a leadership role in the EU rather than carping ineffectually on the sidelines. It's credible if not popular or desirable.
The other option is ALL OUT - we don't wish the EU ill, far from it, but we are as apart from it as Russia and there's a useful counterbalance to the notion of an all-pervasive EU.
I've never had an issue with re-joining EFTA but not as it currently stands - we could and would make it a different organisation, a genuine grouping of free trading nation states as a counterbalance to the integrationist EU and perhaps some of the other EU states might feel more comfortable in a new EFTA rather than the old EU.
EFTA, as it is, doesn't work as it maintains Freedom of Movement so it would have to be something else.
The years of obfuscations, of opt outs, rebates and the like, have all been signals we can't or won't be a fit for the EU.
Unless major changes are made, which I doubt, I look forward to partisans telling us how totally great a new deal which is broadly the same as the current crap deal is.
They might well get it through purely because it will be the second, and last, chance, and so people will accept that it is substantively different.
As with many things, it is much easier if someone else does all the hard work for you.
In fact, I am certain of it because it is a part of the whole 'the establishment will make us vote again until we get the right answer' fear/hope.
Frankly, there is more sense on this board most days than what is coming out of the mouths of most MPs these days.
Well, it really ought to be, oughtn't it......
But I think people have unrealistic expectations of MPs - they are not in general geniuses or dimwits, but reasonably well-informed people trying to navigate their way through multiple complex issues under the full glare of the cameras. They are rarely specialists in a particular area and even when they are they sometimes get it wrong. That's all perfectly normal in most walks of life, but we don't read about it if they're not public figures.
Justine Bloody Greening nicked that.
It trades our MEPs for a transition - suits me, my opinion of "influence" in today's world is that it is overrated.
I will stop at this point because I am ready to start swearing....
Not that they will - the latter offer, anyway.
But wouldn't it put the proverbial chat among les pigeons......
Considering I am so vehemently "Remain", I expect "No Deal" to be left off the ballot paper
I am Spartacus!!!!!!
From this position, that would actually be a good deal considering the damage of No Deal to both sides.
Few of the leaders of the late twentieth century would have decided which side to back in the EU debate on the basis of what was best for their personal career - for people such as Roy Jenkins, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath their position was dictated by their fundamental beliefs, it is not imaginable that any of these people would have done a Boris and picked a side casually for career reasons, casting aside any concept of the national interest.
Few politicians today appear to have any core values, one of Corbyns attractions is that he is an exception to this, you might not agree with him but nobody can say they do not know where he is coming from. But what does May truly believe? What drives Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid? What kind of country do they want to build? What cause would they go to the stake for?
Life imitating art
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skY7dgi43kY
They have no common-sense, no courage, no judgment and precious little intellect. They have all the emotional intelligence of the snails in my garden.
I understand the concerns of those who think that there are many things wrong with the EU. I share some of those concerns myself. But the "push" factor is not enough. The "pull" factor is also necessary and there needs, if you are going to make a change, be a clear destination and a properly worked out plan for how to get there. Not an airy fairy "with one bound we'll be free" nonsense. We're not in a bloody Errol Flynn movie here. The utter failure to come up with a plan is what has doomed the Brexit cause.
Now there is a plan - not ideal - but a plan nonetheless. So either go with it or change your mind. And since the will of the people seems to be so important to some, bloody well ask us what we think.
PS Apologies for all the swearing.
No thanks.
I don't think we should be forced into a Brexit nightmare. Leave is the path to ruin as plotted out by Leavers in a No Deal. It is not just a case of Leaving but finding a way of doing as little damage as possible to the economy and peoples lives.
I am worried about having disruption to my medication! Surely it is a basic fundamental right in an advanced society to keep the supply of medication flowing in peacetime? The ERG are not going to know what has hit them if they drive us into the rocks. Just think of the hundreds of thousands or even millions who could experience interference in their medical care because of their selfish cavalier attitude to other peoples lives. I don't think anyone ever died because of the European Union, Leave on the other hand could have the blood on their hands of many many innocent victims.
I was not making a party political point here - you could say the same for many on the Labour side as well, I would be hard put to say what Tom Watson or Yvette cooper really believes.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/18/buoyant-labour-plans-strategies-to-make-no-deal-brexit-impossible
(It doesn't even mention the pitfall that what they want won't be agreed by the EU).
Much the same as the Conservative politicians of the past I listed, and not really too different from the mainstream Labour politicians of the past, although they would obviously differ on priorities and means.
TM Win 4/9
TM Lose 17/10
not sure how much they'll let you get on. I'm leaning towards the win at those prices.
Yes, I suspect the EU has never killed anyone. But that doesn't mean we should stay in it. As for our current predicament, I'm really not sure what I'd do if I was an MP. It angers me that we're having this discussion now, when we should have done this a year ago. I guess no parliament can bind its successors, so it's not inconceivable that we could just walk away at a later date (hopefully with some planning - though I wonder if the EU would throw their toys out of the pram if we started to make preparations).
You must be very proud of yourself.
No deal -> Economic disruption -> "People's vote" -> Remain
Hoping I'm online if it happens, to take advantage of prices on the markets (got really lucky with the Lib Dem leadership. I'd backed Swinson just the day before, laid before she announced she wasn't standing, and then backed the Not-Not-Standing candidates as each of them successively dropped out. Was splendid).
Otherwise it is No Deal or EUref2 and Remain