As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.
Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.
Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on a pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.
Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.
The 48 letters figure is expected to be reached tomorrow now with a no confidence vote potentially as early as next week
to think that the Conservative party used to have a reputation for ruthlessness with its leaders when the time has come............
The rules have changed and the risks involved are now far higher than they were in the past. A failure leaves May untouchable and able to do what she wants policy wise for the next year. Given that the ERG aim is to get rid of the policy not the person, they have to be a lot more cautious about strengthening May's hand.
Do you personally claim much if any alignment with where the ERG want to apparently go on Brexit?
I have some sympathy for it although it was never my preferred option because of the freedom of movement issue (I am a big fan). But it seems to me that we are past the point where we can currently prepare for that and avoid disruption on March 29th. This deal is terrible. And if it were a choice between this and No Deal I would probably prefer no deal in spite of the disruption. But the risk of Remain is too high and the consequences of that would be real disaster not just some short term discomfort.
Hence my very reluctant support for the deal. And yes, for my sins, I did force myself to sit and read through the whole thing as I have done with every other EU treaty down the years.
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
"I was hoodwinked," says Buccaneering Dominic Raab. "What's more, I only recently realised that Britain is an island off the coast of France. So believe me when I say I have the skill, the determination and the sheer brain power to force the EU to give the UK a brilliant Brexit deal."
Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.
Brexiteers should read and note this.
Those rejecting the deal are the ultra-Remainers useful idiots.
I have lost faith in any of this. There is no good Brexit,Brexiteers are incompetent bufffoons pissing about in Oklahoma. The deal is an over complex technocratic fudge with a massive democratic deficit.
I am not an ultra remainer. I am someone in despair. There is no good here. None at all.
Sorry Jonathan but you have been a Remainer from the very start. To try and claim you have 'lost faith' now is more than a mite disingenuous.
Not quite. I voted remain on the basis that the EU was more reformable than Westminster/Whitehall. I stand by that.
Having lost, as a democrat I was fully prepared to accept a new direction. Weirdly for democratic reasons I am more attracted to the more independent version of Brexit if that could be made to work economically.
What I cannot accept is the current utter chaos and incompetence. I also cannot accept a situation where the EU gets to vote on our laws and we don’t and a deal tha potentially we cannot escape. One day in an extreme unlikely scenario , God forbid, AFD and FN could run Europe and under some scenarios talked about today we could do nothing. At least in the EU we can leave unilaterally.
In the light of all this. We are better off back in. We need a vote to do it and should make arrangements now.
I come from the other side. I don't believe the EU is reformable in any way that would be acceptable to us and that the direction of travel is in the complete opposite direction. Even those opt outs we had would eventually become untenable so if we didn't leave now we would be forced to either give them up or leave later.
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
More like fission in the Tory party. Are they bent on self-destruction ?
I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
Me too... But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
The way some Tories are behaving is to make the prospect of Corbyn in power more likely. That fills me with horror. I do not think his instincts are fundamentally liberal or democratic or in favour of freedom. But those Tories behaving like extremist self-indulgent ninnies are behaving like his useful idiots and will bring about what they claim to abhor. They are a disgrace to their party. They are not patriots and they are taking the voters for fools.
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
Raab is apparently backing Davis not Boris in the Express report. He also made clear he will vote against the Deal
I reckon Raab and Davis will cook up a deal where Davis is caretaker PM for a year or so and then hands over to Raab to take the Tories into 2022...
Whether Davis would actually stick to that after enjoying the trappings of being PM is interesting to ponder...
Raab will be Home Secretary... and will announce an extension of detention without charge to 42 days... thus ensuring a resignation and by-election in Haltemprice (or whatever it is called now).
P.s. my Mum lives in his constituency and says he is an arrogant s**t
"I was hoodwinked," says Buccaneering Dominic Raab. "What's more, I only recently realised that Britain is an island off the coast of France. So believe me when I say I have the skill, the determination and the sheer brain power to force the EU to give the UK a brilliant Brexit deal."
It is breathtaking how fucked we are. Morons to the right of us, incompetents in charge and Marxists to the left.
Annoyingly there is no comfort in voting against all of it.
Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.
Opinion by paper reviewers on Marr is they haven't even though two more names have been added this week making it 25. Tom Newton Dunn doubts it is 40 yet, 8 short
It was agreed that if the ERG do not achieve the vnoc they will be marginalised
Depends - if the Cons continue to plummet in the polls then wavering MPs may tip the scales.
The Tories are still polling this morning at 36% ie the same share Cameron got in 2010 and 2015, hardly plummeting to 1997 levels and Labour is not up on the last general election it is UKIP getting most of the swing but even UKIP are still below 2015 levels
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
Raab is apparently backing Davis not Boris in the Express report. He also made clear he will vote against the Deal
I reckon Raab and Davis will cook up a deal where Davis is caretaker PM for a year or so and then hands over to Raab to take the Tories into 2022...
Whether Davis would actually stick to that after enjoying the trappings of being PM is interesting to ponder...
Raab will be Home Secretary... and will announce an extension of detention without charge to 42 days... thus ensuring a resignation and by-election in Haltemprice (or whatever it is called now).
P.s. my Mum lives in his constituency and says he is an arrogant s**t
He certainly likes the sound of his own voice..I went to a local association dinner and we couldn't shut him up.
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
Raab is apparently backing Davis not Boris in the Express report. He also made clear he will vote against the Deal
I reckon Raab and Davis will cook up a deal where Davis is caretaker PM for a year or so and then hands over to Raab to take the Tories into 2022...
Whether Davis would actually stick to that after enjoying the trappings of being PM is interesting to ponder...
You do not have a clue. The next leader of the party will be elected from a process of 6 - 8 candidates reduced to 2 and put to us, the members over 2 - 3 months
Much like most ERG you seem to think my party is a closed cult of ERG members who can decide amongst themselves who I have imposed on me
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
More like fission in the Tory party. Are they bent on self-destruction ?
I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
Me too... But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
The way some Tories are behaving is to make the prospect of Corbyn in power more likely. That fills me with horror. I do not think his instincts are fundamentally liberal or democratic or in favour of freedom. But those Tories behaving like extremist self-indulgent ninnies are behaving like his useful idiots and will bring about what they claim to abhor. They are a disgrace to their party. They are not patriots and they are taking the voters for fools.
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
More like fission in the Tory party. Are they bent on self-destruction ?
I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
Me too... But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
The way some Tories are behaving is to make the prospect of Corbyn in power more likely. That fills me with horror. I do not think his instincts are fundamentally liberal or democratic or in favour of freedom. But those Tories behaving like extremist self-indulgent ninnies are behaving like his useful idiots and will bring about what they claim to abhor. They are a disgrace to their party. They are not patriots and they are taking the voters for fools.
Based on both polls last night Corbyn will only be in power having his policies dictated by Sturgeon and Blackford as he will need the SNP for confidence and supply.
Based on Sturgeon's comments on Marr she will demand the UK stays in the single market and the customs union as the price of her support.
So we will move from having a PM being dictated to by Arlene Foster to a PM being dictated to by Nicola Sturgeon
As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.
Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.
Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on an EUref2, pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.
Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
Raab is not in the ERG. Nor is Johnson. Davis is. And in the cabinet so are Gove's gang of five, Gauke, Lewis, and Javid.
Johnson has far too many enemies to make it to Number 10, despite being the favourite for next Tory leader at Betfair as I type. I doubt he will even stand in the first round, let alone make it to the second.
Soon Rees-Mogg won't be able to deploy "take the piss" mode any more when he expresses a preference for who he wants as leader. There may be some table-banging for "you got us into this mess - you get us out of it". Encouraged to step up, he won't go all Frank Spencer. It's unlikely he screwed up his timing and I reckon he's value at 15.5. Then again it may be that Number 11 is his target, but still, he's value for next door.
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
More like fission in the Tory party. Are they bent on self-destruction ?
I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
Me too... But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
The way some Tories are behaving is to make the prospect of Corbyn in power more likely. That fills me with horror. I do not think his instincts are fundamentally liberal or democratic or in favour of freedom. But those Tories behaving like extremist self-indulgent ninnies are behaving like his useful idiots and will bring about what they claim to abhor. They are a disgrace to their party. They are not patriots and they are taking the voters for fools.
Based on both polls last night Corbyn will only be in power having his policies dictated by Sturgeon and Blackford as he will need the SNP for confidence and supply.
Based on Sturgeon's comments on Marr she will demand the UK stays in the single market and the customs union as the price of her support.
So we will move from having a PM being dictated to by Arlene Foster to a PM being dictated to by Nicola Sturgeon
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
More like fission in the Tory party. Are they bent on self-destruction ?
I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
Me too... But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
The way some Tories are behaving is to make the prospect of Corbyn in power more likely. That fills me with horror. I do not think his instincts are fundamentally liberal or democratic or in favour of freedom. But those Tories behaving like extremist self-indulgent ninnies are behaving like his useful idiots and will bring about what they claim to abhor. They are a disgrace to their party. They are not patriots and they are taking the voters for fools.
Based on both polls last night Corbyn will only be in power having his policies dictated by Sturgeon and Blackford as he will need the SNP for confidence and supply.
Based on Sturgeon's comments on Marr she will demand the UK stays in the single market and the customs union as the price of her support.
So we will move from having a PM being dictated to by Arlene Foster to a PM being dictated to by Nicola Sturgeon
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.
Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.
Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on a pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.
Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.
The 48 letters figure is expected to be reached tomorrow now with a no confidence vote potentially as early as next week
to think that the Conservative party used to have a reputation for ruthlessness with its leaders when the time has come............
The rules have changed and the risks involved are now far higher than they were in the past. A failure leaves May untouchable and able to do what she wants policy wise for the next year. Given that the ERG aim is to get rid of the policy not the person, they have to be a lot more cautious about strengthening May's hand.
Do you personally claim much if any alignment with where the ERG want to apparently go on Brexit?
I have some sympathy for it although it was never my preferred option because of the freedom of movement issue (I am a big fan). But it seems to me that we are past the point where we can currently prepare for that and avoid disruption on March 29th. This deal is terrible. And if it were a choice between this and No Deal I would probably prefer no deal in spite of the disruption. But the risk of Remain is too high and the consequences of that would be real disaster not just some short term discomfort.
Hence my very reluctant support for the deal. And yes, for my sins, I did force myself to sit and read through the whole thing as I have done with every other EU treaty down the years.
Yes. Me too.
If this deal doesn’t pass I doubt we’ll Leave at all. Ever.
It’s very obvious what the Remain play is here. All Leavers should think about that and if they could live with themselves if their actions led us to rebounding straight back in to a fully Federalised EU.
Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.
She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
"WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.
Or more likely both.
She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
She is more up to the job than any of the “extremist ninnies” (copyright: Alistair Meeks) who might replace her.
At what point, I wonder, will it dawn on the Tories that the EU deal is a final offer and they couldn’t care less about the psychodramas that intellectually challenged Tory or Labour politicians are going through?
When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
When will it dawn on the Tories that losing votes from the uncommitted middle, those who want a modicum of competence, is a big problem for them?
After losing an election, perhaps.
That generally requires two elections. The wash up of the first is to the effect of “we failed because we were insufficiently far away from the centre”. See also the Corbyn Labour Party.
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
The ERG want "super Canada", which is a perfectly OK idea, but not for the Withdrawal Agreement.
So on the negative I think they fundamentally misunderstand the process.
On the other, we can dispatch Gove etc off to bat for that if we wanted to.
The ERG can have 'super Canada' for GB, even Barnier has said that but the price of that will be they will have to wave bye bye to Northern Ireland and the DUP
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
More like fission in the Tory party. Are they bent on self-destruction ?
I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
Me too... But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
The way some Tories are behaving is to make the prospect of Corbyn in power more likely. That fills me with horror. I do not think his instincts are fundamentally liberal or democratic or in favour of freedom. But those Tories behaving like extremist self-indulgent ninnies are behaving like his useful idiots and will bring about what they claim to abhor. They are a disgrace to their party. They are not patriots and they are taking the voters for fools.
Based on both polls last night Corbyn will only be in power having his policies dictated by Sturgeon and Blackford as he will need the SNP for confidence and supply.
Based on Sturgeon's comments on Marr she will demand the UK stays in the single market and the customs union as the price of her support.
So we will move from having a PM being dictated to by Arlene Foster to a PM being dictated to by Nicola Sturgeon
Infinitely preferable.
Ironic that after England and Wales voted Leave it may end up they having their next two UK government's controlled by the largest parties of Remain voting Northern Ireland and Scotland
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.
Or more likely both.
She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
She is more up to the job than any of the “extremist ninnies” (copyright: Alistair Meeks) who might replace her.
At what point, I wonder, will it dawn on the Tories that the EU deal is a final offer and they couldn’t care less about the psychodramas that intellectually challenged Tory or Labour politicians are going through?
When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
When will it dawn on the Tories that losing votes from the uncommitted middle, those who want a modicum of competence, is a big problem for them?
After losing an election, perhaps.
That generally requires two elections. The wash up of the first is to the effect of “we failed because we were insufficiently far away from the centre”. See also the Corbyn Labour Party.
Wasn’t that last year’s election? The one where the Tories lost their majority.
Or do you think their current behaviour is going to make people more likely to vote for them?
JR-M as Chancellor should be an absolute winner, I’m sure.......
As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.
Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.
Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on an EUref2, pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.
Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.
She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
"WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.
Or more likely both.
She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
She is more up to the jough?
When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
When will it dawn on the Tories that losing votes from the uncommitted middle, those who want a modicum of competence, is a big problem for them?
After losing an election, perhaps.
That generally requires two elections. The wash up of the first is to the effect of “we failed because we were insufficiently far away from the centre”. See also the Corbyn Labour Party.
Though against Corbyn Labour the Tories do not need to win the centre as Labour have also abandoned it and their is no strong centrist party. So winning a general election could come down to which party better mobilise their base
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Indeed, while the ERG wants to use Brexit to become Singapore or Switzerland, Corbynites want to use Brexit to become Venezuela or Cuba
It is a terrible irony but seems the Tory ultra dream of fleeing the EU will simply have enabled the Far Left total control over our lives.
We are all going to pay the price of this madness.
The EU meant that limits were imposed on how far the far right or far left could go as we may soon discover post Brexit
This is genuinely one of the most disgusting arguments in favour of the EU - that it should be there to prevent a country pursuing their own internal economic policies. It is as insidious and wrong as those who argue we should Leave the EU because it is too right wing/left wing.
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Indeed, while the ERG wants to use Brexit to become Singapore or Switzerland, Corbynites want to use Brexit to become Venezuela or Cuba
It is a terrible irony but seems the Tory ultra dream of fleeing the EU will simply have enabled the Far Left total control over our lives.
We are all going to pay the price of this madness.
The EU meant that limits were imposed on how far the far right or far left could go as we may soon discover post Brexit
This is genuinely one of the most disgusting arguments in favour of the EU - that it should be there to prevent a country pursuing their own internal economic policies. It is as insidious and wrong as those who argue we should Leave the EU because it is too right wing/left wing.
I’m with you in theory.
In reality, it’s harder to agree when the opposition is led by people who admire Venezuela’s government and like to talk about insurrection and capital controls.
I assume all those Leavers that wanted Nick Clegg charged with treason for talking to the EU about Brexit have called for Davis and Paterson to be charged for something similar for talking to Oklahoma about a trade deal?
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
If you are a Eurocrat, trying to make sense of the Brexit process, you are probably thinking to yourself:
"Thank f*** they voted to leave....just give them a bit more, to make sure they actually do."
I know it is not your point Mark but I do not see how the current deal - in terms of the backstop - could give us a "bit" more.
What the ERG seemingly want (perhaps yourself also) is an exit from the backstop, which means it isn't a backstop any more and a new backstop would be needed, with all the bells and whistles that would take.
Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
.
Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.
She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
"WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.
Or more likely both.
She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
She is more up to the jough?
When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
When will it dawn on the Tories that losing votes from the uncommitted middle, those who want a modicum of competence, is a big problem for them?
After losing an election, perhaps.
That generally requires two elections. The wash up of the first is to the effect of “we failed because we were insufficiently far away from the centre”. See also the Corbyn Labour Party.
Though against Corbyn Labour the Tories do not need to win the centre as Labour have also abandoned it and their is no strong centrist party. So winning a general election could come down to which party better mobilise their base
I think that’s pretty spot-on. And that is what happened in the last election.
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Indeed, while the ERG wants to use Brexit to become Singapore or Switzerland, Corbynites want to use Brexit to become Venezuela or Cuba
It is a terrible irony but seems the Tory ultra dream of fleeing the EU will simply have enabled the Far Left total control over our lives.
We are all going to pay the price of this madness.
The EU meant that limits were imposed on how far the far right or far left could go as we may soon discover post Brexit
This is genuinely one of the most disgusting arguments in favour of the EU - that it should be there to prevent a country pursuing their own internal economic policies. It is as insidious and wrong as those who argue we should Leave the EU because it is too right wing/left wing.
Well fine but prepare for the risk of a Corbyn government pursuing real socialism
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Indeed, while the ERG wants to use Brexit to become Singapore or Switzerland, Corbynites want to use Brexit to become Venezuela or Cuba
It is a terrible irony but seems the Tory ultra dream of fleeing the EU will simply have enabled the Far Left total control over our lives.
We are all going to pay the price of this madness.
The EU meant that limits were imposed on how far the far right or far left could go as we may soon discover post Brexit
This is genuinely one of the most disgusting arguments in favour of the EU - that it should be there to prevent a country pursuing their own internal economic policies. It is as insidious and wrong as those who argue we should Leave the EU because it is too right wing/left wing.
Why is it any different in principle from having a constitution which limits the freedom of democratically elected governments to, say, take away or abuse peoples’ human rights?
The EU has sought to set minimum standards of governance which all members must abide by. That seems to me to be a good thing to prevent a cabal who do not believe in such things taking power and ruining a country. There have been some notable examples in Europe, after all.
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Indeed, while the ERG wants to use Brexit to become Singapore or Switzerland, Corbynites want to use Brexit to become Venezuela or Cuba
It is a terrible irony but seems the Tory ultra dream of fleeing the EU will simply have enabled the Far Left total control over our lives.
We are all going to pay the price of this madness.
The EU meant that limits were imposed on how far the far right or far left could go as we may soon discover post Brexit
This is genuinely one of the most disgusting arguments in favour of the EU - that it should be there to prevent a country pursuing their own internal economic policies. It is as insidious and wrong as those who argue we should Leave the EU because it is too right wing/left wing.
I’m with you in theory.
In reality, it’s harder to agree when the opposition is led by people who admire Venezuela’s government and like to talk about insurrection and capital controls.
I agree it is not a pleasant thought I agree. But that is no reason to wish for an external power to undermine the democratic vote.
Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
More like fission in the Tory party. Are they bent on self-destruction ?
I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
Me too... But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
The way some Tories are behaving is to make the prospect of Corbyn in power more likely. That fills me with horror. I do not think his instincts are fundamentally liberal or democratic or in favour of freedom. But those Tories behaving like extremist self-indulgent ninnies are behaving like his useful idiots and will bring about what they claim to abhor. They are a disgrace to their party. They are not patriots and they are taking the voters for fools.
Based on both polls last night Corbyn will only be in power having his policies dictated by Sturgeon and Blackford as he will need the SNP for confidence and supply.
Based on Sturgeon's comments on Marr she will demand the UK stays in the single market and the customs union as the price of her support.
So we will move from having a PM being dictated to by Arlene Foster to a PM being dictated to by Nicola Sturgeon
Infinitely preferable.
Why would Corbyn agree to stay in the SM?
Because he wants to be PM. I think he’s got a degree* of patience which May and the current crop of ‘top’ Tories haven’t. I suspect...... and Mr P will have a much more educated opinion..... that being PM, even if he has to rely on the ‘sort of’ Social Democrat SNP will enable him to do some at least of the things he wants to do.
Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
.
Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.
She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
"WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.
Or more likely both.
She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
She is more up to the jough?
When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
When will it dawn on the Tories that losing votes from the uncommitted middle, those who want a modicum of competence, is a big problem for them?
After losing an election, perhaps.
Thay.
Though against Corbyn Labour the Tories do not need to win the centre as Labour have also abandoned it and their is no strong centrist party. So winning a general election could come down to which party better mobilise their base
I think that’s pretty spot-on. And that is what happened in the last election.
Which is why I prefer May to do the Deal but Boris as leader at the next general election
Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.
Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket
Indeed, while the ERG wants to use Brexit to become Singapore or Switzerland, Corbynites want to use Brexit to become Venezuela or Cuba
It is a terrible irony but seems the Tory ultra dream of fleeing the EU will simply have enabled the Far Left total control over our lives.
We are all going to pay the price of this madness.
The EU meant that limits were imposed on how far the far right or far left could go as we may soon discover post Brexit
This is genuinely one of the most disgusting arguments in favour of the EU - that it should be there to prevent a country pursuing their own internal economic policies. It is as insidious and wrong as those who argue we should Leave the EU because it is too right wing/left wing.
The Germans might disagree with you on that point (let's cut out the discussion and go straight to Godwin)
Labour is planning to force a Commons vote within weeks that would make it impossible for Britain to crash out of the European Union without a deal, as fears grow about a disastrous hard Brexit if parliament rejects Theresa May’s agreement.
What would the legislation say? It can't say take the deal, because it's about what happens if the deal is voted down, and it can't say take a different deal, because parliament can't mandate the EU to make and accept deals, and it probably can't mandate revoking Article 50, because that probably needs the other member states to agree. So what is it?
He’s a bit slow. I’ve been making that suggestion for a while now. Where do I send my bill?
If May does that my votes will be for No Deal and, if I lose, then for Corbyn. I am pretty certain this clever little plan will ensure Corbyn is our next PM.
He’s a bit slow. I’ve been making that suggestion for a while now. Where do I send my bill?
If May does that my votes will be for No Deal and, if I lose, then for Corbyn. I am pretty certain this clever little plan will ensure Corbyn is our next PM.
But the whole point of this is that you won’t get to vote for No Deal.
Why is it any different in principle from having a constitution which limits the freedom of democratically elected governments to, say, take away or abuse peoples’ human rights?
The EU has sought to set minimum standards of governance which all members must abide by. That seems to me to be a good thing to prevent a cabal who do not believe in such things taking power and ruining a country. There have been some notable examples in Europe, after all.
Nope. It is a massive curtailment of democracy and eventually leads to violence. Once people know their votes are worthless they turn to other means.
Labour is planning to force a Commons vote within weeks that would make it impossible for Britain to crash out of the European Union without a deal, as fears grow about a disastrous hard Brexit if parliament rejects Theresa May’s agreement.
What would the legislation say? It can't say take the deal, because it's about what happens if the deal is voted down, and it can't say take a different deal, because parliament can't mandate the EU to make and accept deals, and it probably can't mandate revoking Article 50, because that probably needs the other member states to agree. So what is it?
Yes. Glad to hear I am not the only one struggling with this. How to we legislate against No Deal? Only by either accepting a deal or Remaining prevents No Deal. We may as well propose a Bill that the Earth doesn't go around the Sun as of tomorrow.
Comments
But the prospect of PM Corbyn navigating the aftermath of Brexit leaves the second bit in doubt.
Hence my very reluctant support for the deal. And yes, for my sins, I did force myself to sit and read through the whole thing as I have done with every other EU treaty down the years.
Whether Davis would actually stick to that after enjoying the trappings of being PM is interesting to ponder...
P.s. my Mum lives in his constituency and says he is an arrogant s**t
Annoyingly there is no comfort in voting against all of it.
is UKIP getting most of the swing but even UKIP are still below 2015 levels
Much like most ERG you seem to think my party is a closed cult of ERG members who can decide amongst themselves who I have imposed on me
I note that he is now favourite on Betfair to be next Tory leader.
Pathetic. ERG wingnuts haven't got the numbers. Their delusions extend to the number of letter writers they think they have.
Based on both polls last night Corbyn will only be in power having his policies dictated by Sturgeon and Blackford as he will need the SNP for confidence and supply.
Based on Sturgeon's comments on Marr she will demand the UK stays in the single market and the customs union as the price of her support.
So we will move from having a PM being dictated to by Arlene Foster to a PM being dictated to by Nicola Sturgeon
Raab declaring war on Boris and loyalty to TM shows a determination for his own ambition. He is not going to stand aside for Davis or anyone else
Do WH just keep your money till whenever?
Think it's best to wait for tomorrow and see what happens...
"As we leave the European Union, we will no longer be members of the single market or the customs union"
Any change to that requires a new leader, then a new manifesto for a new election. Anything less is a fraud on the voters.
We are all going to pay the price of this madness.
Also condemning the letter writing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46250607
Johnson has far too many enemies to make it to Number 10, despite being the favourite for next Tory leader at Betfair as I type. I doubt he will even stand in the first round, let alone make it to the second.
Soon Rees-Mogg won't be able to deploy "take the piss" mode any more when he expresses a preference for who he wants as leader. There may be some table-banging for "you got us into this mess - you get us out of it". Encouraged to step up, he won't go all Frank Spencer. It's unlikely he screwed up his timing and I reckon he's value at 15.5. Then again it may be that Number 11 is his target, but still, he's value for next door.
I’ve just added more.
So on the negative I think they fundamentally misunderstand the process.
On the other, we can dispatch Gove etc off to bat for that if we wanted to.
If this deal doesn’t pass I doubt we’ll Leave at all. Ever.
It’s very obvious what the Remain play is here. All Leavers should think about that and if they could live with themselves if their actions led us to rebounding straight back in to a fully Federalised EU.
By a lot, he means none....it was all a bit hard and he had some jam on the go.
An erg is approximately the amount of work done (or energy consumed) by one common house fly performing one "push up".
government's controlled by the largest parties of Remain voting Northern Ireland and Scotland
May: "A VONC could stop Brexit". Gove: "Your proposal isn't Brexit".
Or do you think their current behaviour is going to make people more likely to vote for them?
JR-M as Chancellor should be an absolute winner, I’m sure.......
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/facebook-household-prediction-patent
In reality, it’s harder to agree when the opposition is led by people who admire Venezuela’s government and like to talk about insurrection and capital controls.
"Thank f*** they voted to leave....just give them a bit more, to make sure they actually do."
No? I am shocked.
We really need a Logan Act.
https://twitter.com/montie/status/1064104381338009600?s=21
What the ERG seemingly want (perhaps yourself also) is an exit from the backstop, which means it isn't a backstop any more and a new backstop would be needed, with all the bells and whistles that would take.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFzEunHB-aM
The EU has sought to set minimum standards of governance which all members must abide by. That seems to me to be a good thing to prevent a cabal who do not believe in such things taking power and ruining a country. There have been some notable examples in Europe, after all.
https://twitter.com/garystreeterswd/status/1063753034210181120?s=21
*And yes I know it’s his only degree!
https://twitter.com/profsked/status/1063892546085113858?s=21
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/18/labour-keir-starmer-force-amendments-block-no-deal-brexit What would the legislation say? It can't say take the deal, because it's about what happens if the deal is voted down, and it can't say take a different deal, because parliament can't mandate the EU to make and accept deals, and it probably can't mandate revoking Article 50, because that probably needs the other member states to agree. So what is it?
Yes. Glad to hear I am not the only one struggling with this. How to we legislate against No Deal? Only by either accepting a deal or Remaining prevents No Deal.
We may as well propose a Bill that the Earth doesn't go around the Sun as of tomorrow.