Absolutely they have. I would now say that there is a 30-40% chance of no Brexit at all, up from less than 10% last week. This is a direct result of complete pillocks looking a gift horse in the mouth, failing to recognise that the May deal, whilst far from perfect, delivered on the key elements of the Brexit vote and, most critically of all, got us out of the European swamp, if not completely onto dry land.
If the ERG have their way, and the EU can be persuaded we are still worth it, we might be stuck in the EU for another generation. They are so self defeating it is almost beyond belief. Morons.
Yes, Brexiteers delivering Remain would be the sweetest irony ever.
There have been times today when I honestly thought that many of them deserved nothing less.
They should welcome that. They are clear this is a bad brexit. May has clearly tried at every turn to keep her party together so if she could have gotten something they liked more she would have, so the pendulum won't swing more in our favour. A deal Labour might get would be even more closely aligned with the EU. The public would, it appears, go for remain over no deal.
Therefore they should be happy to remain. No brexit better than a bad brexit. And no more moaning about it afterwards.
Why on earth would business leaders do that. There is nothing in May’s Brexit deal for them and Hammond has done nothing to attract inward investment or boost productivity as Chancellor.
Because the alternative is no deal, with no preparation because our government is incompetent. But we are where we are as a pretty straight kind of guy once said.
At the moment, my "big" business is facing either no deal, or transition plus a commitment to retain the current arrangement as part of the future partnership. It would take the Deal in a heartbeat.
Of course it would. If we wanted no deal we needed to have started work 2 years ago to get everything organised and in place. The government produced some half arsed leaflets in September. A complete shambles for which I for one will not forgive May notwithstanding I support her deal right now.
But the risk, here was always that the EU would take Britain’s best offer then demand more. This is precisely what has just happened. Raab discovered at the last minute that the “backstop” clause for Northern Ireland was no longer a last resort, no longer a bridge to a proper free-trade deal. It was to become the basis on which the final Brexit deal would be built. This had been sneaked into the text at the last minute – with Raab only finding about it once the deal was agreed by No 10.
Perhaps the worst of it was the union. British negotiators picked up word that Martin Selmayr, the chief Brussels bureaucrat, had told his officials that the UK must pay a price for Brexit – and that the price is Northern Ireland. He wanted the Brexit transition deal to be written in such a way that, if the United Kingdom wanted to break free and strike a new arrangement, it would have no choice but to leave Northern Ireland behind.
I get the impression that the serious politicians said as little as possible today.
Didn't hear a peep out of certain Cabinet ministers, Javid, Hammond etc.
Much like yesterday, they let the idiots rush to the 24 hour news channels, and sat it out. Wise.
Hammond is one of the main reasons the Brexit deal is so toxic as he has refused funding for no deal preparation which means we have no negotiating leverage. Javid is a straw man who blows with the wind.
Just 32% support No Deal with Sky News today, there is no point preparing for it as there is not enough support for it in the country.
If No Deal had 50% support that would be a different matter but it does not
You miss the point. If you do t prepare for no deal, you have to take what you are given- which is what May has done.
There was no point preparing for it as there was no majority public support for it, that is the whole point.
The only sustainable Brexit is one with a Deal or single market and or customs union, No Deal just leads to Remain ie no Brexit at all
The only point in not for no deal.
Well that is the
It’s not about no deal and never has been. It’s always been about preparing for no dealto give yourself negotiating leverage and options. BTW, under FPTP no deal is as valid as another Leave scenario - oform of Leave was on the ballot paper.
It is about No Deal as the EU can read the British polls and the British electorate has no stomach for No Deal.
Had it been 65% Leave and 50% for No Deal then the EU may have felt we believed it but no it was 52% Leave and just 32% for No Deal, the EU knew the Brexit vote was built on a lie ie Leave only scraped a win by promising voters a mythical land of milk and honey and hence they also knew they could dictate terms knowing the British would capitulate or reverse Brexit rather than accept No Deal
Of course it is true. No other deal is available and everyone seems to think we won't no deal, therefore the DUP will not support the government if this happens.
I get the impression that the serious politicians said as little as possible today.
Didn't hear a peep out of certain Cabinet ministers, Javid, Hammond etc.
Much like yesterday, they let the idiots rush to the 24 hour news channels, and sat it out. Wise.
Hammond is one of the main reasons the Brexit deal is so toxic as he has refused funding for no deal preparation which means we have no negotiating leverage. Javid is a straw man who blows with the wind.
Just 32% support No Deal with Sky News today, there is no point preparing for it as there is not enough support for it in the country.
If No Deal had 50% support that would be a different matter but it does not
You miss the point. If you do t prepare for no deal, you have to take what you are given- which is what May has done.
You can't blame Hammond. If he'd said once he was installed as Chancellor, right, let's start paving over Kent, at the very least he'd have been denounced for propagating Project Fear. Remember, it was going to be the easiest deal ever.
There is a lot more to preparing for no deal than building lorry parks. As it happens, he hasn’t authorised expenditure for even that. He is a disgrace and a v poor Chancellor compared to say Howe and Lawson.
No deal was always a bluff. Prepare as much as you like but it was never going to happen. It was a bluff. We need to move on.
It was always a bluff if you didn’t prepare for it and being found out trying to run a bluff, an unconvincing bluff at that, is fatal to negotiations as May has found out to. Britain’s cost
If I say I am preparing to stick a red hot poker up my bum, most people will guess I am bluffing, however earnest I might try to be. No Deal planning suffered from a similar lack of authenticity. The EU aren't complete idiots.
That is hardly a valid analogy - especially if haven’t got a poker and you haven’t even warmed it up !
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Second night in a row where there seems to be more consensus on PB than there is in the Tory party...
I've never seen the like!
PB has more respect for others than the various Tory tribes do with one another. I now look on their attempts to pretend to be a united party, or that if only that terrible May were not here it would all be hunky dory, with utter contempt. They are treating everyone like absolute cretins even as they still jockey for a premiership which is on its last legs anyway.
But the risk, here was always that the EU would take Britain’s best offer then demand more. This is precisely what has just happened. Raab discovered at the last minute that the “backstop” clause for Northern Ireland was no longer a last resort, no longer a bridge to a proper free-trade deal. It was to become the basis on which the final Brexit deal would be built. This had been sneaked into the text at the last minute – with Raab only finding about it once the deal was agreed by No 10.
Perhaps the worst of it was the union. British negotiators picked up word that Martin Selmayr, the chief Brussels bureaucrat, had told his officials that the UK must pay a price for Brexit – and that the price is Northern Ireland. He wanted the Brexit transition deal to be written in such a way that, if the United Kingdom wanted to break free and strike a new arrangement, it would have no choice but to leave Northern Ireland behind.
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
Well not necessarily. They've said C&S is over unless Theresa May goes...
If true expect the Cabinet to do their duty and act swiftly...
I don't think Theresa May would lose a leadership vote. The question is whether she'd decide to stay on with a substantial minority voting against her. Maggie tried to do it in 1990 when she got 204 to Heseltine's 152 but that only lasted a few days.
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Can confirm
I’ve never heard this from anyone but Remainer expats.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
According to an audience member on Question Time it will be ok because we had the Atlantic convoys in the war.
OT Was talking to a client about the PPF case earlier tonight and who is in the bleeding FT article we referred to ... only antifrank as was - that man gets everywhere!
But the risk, here was always that the EU would take Britain’s best offer then demand more. This is precisely what has just happened. Raab discovered at the last minute that the “backstop” clause for Northern Ireland was no longer a last resort, no longer a bridge to a proper free-trade deal. It was to become the basis on which the final Brexit deal would be built. This had been sneaked into the text at the last minute – with Raab only finding about it once the deal was agreed by No 10.
Perhaps the worst of it was the union. British negotiators picked up word that Martin Selmayr, the chief Brussels bureaucrat, had told his officials that the UK must pay a price for Brexit – and that the price is Northern Ireland. He wanted the Brexit transition deal to be written in such a way that, if the United Kingdom wanted to break free and strike a new arrangement, it would have no choice but to leave Northern Ireland behind.
Why on earth would business leaders do that. There is nothing in May’s Brexit deal for them and Hammond has done nothing to attract inward investment or boost productivity as Chancellor.
Because the alternative is no deal, with no preparation because our government is incompetent. But we are where we are as a pretty straight kind of guy once said.
At the moment, my "big" business is facing either no deal, or transition plus a commitment to retain the current arrangement as part of the future partnership. It would take the Deal in a heartbeat.
Of course it would. If we wanted no deal we needed to have started work 2 years ago to get everything organised and in place. The government produced some half arsed leaflets in September. A complete shambles for which I for one will not forgive May notwithstanding I support her deal right now.
Yet my company has been preparing for a no deal for a long time, as has the rest of my industry (or at least the parts I am aware of).
We really should not have to be told by Government to plan ahead.
But saying that the Government has neglected no deal planning.
Its almost like she wanted a take this or leave it choice (and the world will end if you leave it)
Frankly, Labour considered a laughing stock on brexit according to QT.
Their position is incredibly, transparently, cynical but at least is open about prioritising getting Labour into power as the primary objective via a GE.
But they are nothing on the Tories. If the Tories don't want this Brexit, that's fine, they can have no Brexit and Corbyn as PM now for all I care. We shall have to hope he has a competent Cabinet and enough riotous backbenchers to rein him in, it cannot be worse than this current lot.
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Well not necessarily. They've said C&S is over unless Theresa May goes...
If true expect the Cabinet to do their duty and act swiftly...
And she still wins the vnoc
I don't think it will get to VONC.
I think the Cabinet will realize the DUP is going to pull the plug and May's deal can't get through the Commons and they'll tell Theresa May she's lost their confidence and they'll all resign en-mass unless she goes.
Never underestimate the Tories self-preservation instincts. Get rid of Theresa and hope something turns up. Or face a January election and probable annihilation at the hands of Corbyn?
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
You really need to offer more detail as a lot of the above is meaningless.
So what do you mean by "Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars"
Why on earth would business leaders do that. There is nothing in May’s Brexit deal for them and Hammond has done nothing to attract inward investment or boost productivity as Chancellor.
Because the alternative is no deal, with no preparation because our government is incompetent. But we are where we are as a pretty straight kind of guy once said.
At the moment, my "big" business is facing either no deal, or transition plus a commitment to retain the current arrangement as part of the future partnership. It would take the Deal in a heartbeat.
Of course it would. If we wanted no deal we needed to have started work 2 years ago to get everything organised and in place. The government produced some half arsed leaflets in September. A complete shambles for which I for one will not forgive May notwithstanding I support her deal right now.
Yet my company has been preparing for a no deal for a long time, as has the rest of my industry (or at least the parts I am aware of).
We really should not have to be told by Government to plan ahead.
But saying that the Government has neglected no deal planning.
Its almost like she wanted a take this or leave it choice (and the world will end if you leave it)
I fear your last point is true. Its been dishonest as well as incompetent from the start. I can understand why people are angry with her. But we have arrived at that choice and we need to take it.
I get the impression that the serious politicians said as little as possible today.
Didn't hear a peep out of certain Cabinet ministers, Javid, Hammond etc.
Much like yesterday, they let the idiots rush to the 24 hour news channels, and sat it out. Wise.
Hammond is one of the main reasons the Brexit deal is so toxic as he has refused funding for no deal preparation which means we have no negotiating leverage. Javid is a straw man who blows with the wind.
Just 32% support No Deal with Sky News today, there is no point preparing for it as there is not enough support for it in the country.
If No Deal had 50% support that would be a different matter but it does not
You miss the point. If you do t prepare for no deal, you have to take what you are given- which is what May has done.
You can't blame Hammond. If he'd said once he was installed as Chancellor, right, let's start paving over Kent, at the very least he'd have been denounced for propagating Project Fear. Remember, it was going to be the easiest deal ever.
There is a lot more to preparing for no deal than building lorry parks. As it happens, he hasn’t authorised expenditure for even that. He is a disgrace and a v poor Chancellor compared to say Howe and Lawson.
No deal was always a bluff. Prepare as much as you like but it was never going to happen. It was a bluff. We need to move on.
It was always a bluff if you didn’t prepare for it and being found out trying to run a bluff, an unconvincing bluff at that, is fatal to negotiations as May has found out to. Britain’s cost
If I say I am preparing to stick a red hot poker up my bum, most people will guess I am bluffing, however earnest I might try to be. No Deal planning suffered from a similar lack of authenticity. The EU aren't complete idiots.
That is hardly a valid analogy - especially if haven’t got a poker and you haven’t even warmed it up !
OK. We say, we won't deal with you. The EU will say, come back when you are ready to talk. They have been there a hundred times already. Whatever you think of the EU they are good negotiators. They get plenty of practice dealing wether their own members.
Why on earth would business leaders do that. There is nothing in May’s Brexit deal for them and Hammond has done nothing to attract inward investment or boost productivity as Chancellor.
Because the alternative is no deal, with no preparation because our government is incompetent. But we are where we are as a pretty straight kind of guy once said.
At the moment, my "big" business is facing either no deal, or transition plus a commitment to retain the current arrangement as part of the future partnership. It would take the Deal in a heartbeat.
Of course it would. If we wanted no deal we needed to have started work 2 years ago to get everything organised and in place. The government produced some half arsed leaflets in September. A complete shambles for which I for one will not forgive May notwithstanding I support her deal right now.
Yet my company has been preparing for a no deal for a long time, as has the rest of my industry (or at least the parts I am aware of).
We really should not have to be told by Government to plan ahead.
But saying that the Government has neglected no deal planning.
Its almost like she wanted a take this or leave it choice (and the world will end if you leave it)
I am not aware that my hospital has made any plans for No Deal.
Well not necessarily. They've said C&S is over unless Theresa May goes...
If true expect the Cabinet to do their duty and act swiftly...
And she still wins the vnoc
I don't think it will get to VONC.
I think the Cabinet will realize the DUP is going to pull the plug and May's deal can't get through the Commons and they'll tell Theresa May she's lost their confidence and they'll all resign en-mass unless she goes.
Never underestimate the Tories self-preservation instincts. Get rid of Theresa and hope something turns up. Or face a January election and probable annihilation at the hands of Corbyn?
It's a no brainer what they'll do...
Except you are talking rubbish as May beats both Corbyn and Boris and Mogg and Raab as who the British people still want to negotiate Brexit in Sky News' poll today.
As the poll also makes clear if not May's Deal it will be Remain
Well not necessarily. They've said C&S is over unless Theresa May goes...
If true expect the Cabinet to do their duty and act swiftly...
to appease the DUP..... seriously????
Can’t run a Project Fear campaign based on a Corbyn Gov, as May has consistently done, if she hasn’t got a majority in the HoC and that means, yes, keeping the DUP onside. Tories are not going to get support from anyone else and they don’t have a majority, thanks to May.
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be supported.
And yet I bet polls won't back that up, given remaining and no deal still command significant support.
In any case it is MPs she needs to persuade, and we are still waiting to find out if a few more Cabinet Members will quit, so in fact the opposite is occurring as people supposedly on board like Gove are wrestling with tossing it out.
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
We will see if her favourable ratings improve then
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
I don't understand why no deal is an option and any effort at all is taking place - after all we were reliably informed by the true pure believers that a deal would be incredibly easy and simple.... also BMW et al would be forcing the EU to come begging to meet our terms.
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be supported.
And yet I bet polls won't back that up, given remaining and no deal still command significant support.
In any case it is MPs she needs to persuade, and we are still waiting to find out if a few more Cabinet Members will quit, so in fact the opposite is occurring as people supposedly on board like Gove are wrestling with tossing it out.
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Can confirm
I’ve never heard this from anyone but Remainer expats.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
In Italy my experience was that there was some disappointment and apprehension that the Germans might be even more dominant without us but no hint of ridicule.
Well not necessarily. They've said C&S is over unless Theresa May goes...
If true expect the Cabinet to do their duty and act swiftly...
And she still wins the vnoc
I don't think it will get to VONC.
I think the Cabinet will realize the DUP is going to pull the plug and May's deal can't get through the Commons and they'll tell Theresa May she's lost their confidence and they'll all resign en-mass unless she goes.
Never underestimate the Tories self-preservation instincts. Get rid of Theresa and hope something turns up. Or face a January election and probable annihilation at the hands of Corbyn?
It's a no brainer what they'll do...
You are living in a dream world of your own.
The ERG have made a huge miscalulation today and this thread amply demonstrates the growing contempt for them
And you forecast the daily mail circulation would collapse, since the new editor has arrived it is growing its circulation
Frankly, Labour considered a laughing stock on brexit according to QT.
Their position is incredibly, transparently, cynical but at least is open about prioritising getting Labour into power as the primary objective via a GE.
But they are nothing on the Tories. If the Tories don't want this Brexit, that's fine, they can have no Brexit and Corbyn as PM now for all I care. We shall have to hope he has a competent Cabinet and enough riotous backbenchers to rein him in, it cannot be worse than this current lot.
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
A Plan would have been a good start.
Dave forbade it.
The Original Sin, since exacerbated by Theresa&Hammond&Co.
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
Not based upon the GE2017 where she blew a 20% lead in the polls and lost her majority
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
People who actively want no deal are nuts or seriously ignorant.
May is the worst Tory Prime Minister on offer, apart from all the others.
Ken Clarke was saying much the same if rather more kindly earlier.... Perhaps it's time for a Clarke / Redwood reunion as caretaker leader / deputy....
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
Not based upon the GE2017 where she blew a 20% lead in the polls and lost her majority
May got 42% in GE17 still, the highest Tory voteshare since 1983 even if Labour did better than expected
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
Not based upon the GE2017 where she blew a 20% lead in the polls and lost her majority
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
You really need to offer more detail as a lot of the above is meaningless.
So what do you mean by "Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars"
I mean that any car imported into the EU has to have EU Type Approval (i.e. tests where they crash them into barriers etc) before it can legally be driven on EU roads:
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Can confirm
I’ve never heard this from anyone but Remainer expats.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
In Italy my experience was that there was some disappointment and apprehension that the Germans might be even more dominant without us but no hint of ridicule.
Last year I was at a conference in Copenhagen. Speaker after speaker gently teased British panel members over Brexit, always getting a good chortle from the audience.
Why on earth would business leaders do that. There is nothing in May’s Brexit deal for them and Hammond has done nothing to attract inward investment or boost productivity as Chancellor.
Because the alternative is no deal, with no preparation because our government is incompetent. But we are where we are as a pretty straight kind of guy once said.
At the moment, my "big" business is facing either no deal, or transition plus a commitment to retain the current arrangement as part of the future partnership. It would take the Deal in a heartbeat.
Of course it would. If we wanted no deal we needed to have started work 2 years ago to get everything organised and in place. The government produced some half arsed leaflets in September. A complete shambles for which I for one will not forgive May notwithstanding I support her deal right now.
Yet my company has been preparing for a no deal for a long time, as has the rest of my industry (or at least the parts I am aware of).
We really should not have to be told by Government to plan ahead.
But saying that the Government has neglected no deal planning.
Its almost like she wanted a take this or leave it choice (and the world will end if you leave it)
I am not aware that my hospital has made any plans for No Deal.
Do you think its possible plans are either prepared or under preparation above the level of your hospital?
Hint - As far as I can see that would be a yes.
As I say my industry faced up to the challenges and can trade through a no deal (or those parts I am familiar with anyway).
Why on earth would business leaders do that. There is nothing in May’s Brexit deal for them and Hammond has done nothing to attract inward investment or boost productivity as Chancellor.
Because the alternative is no deal, with no preparation because our government is incompetent. But we are where we are as a pretty straight kind of guy once said.
At the moment, my "big" business is facing either no deal, or transition plus a commitment to retain the current arrangement as part of the future partnership. It would take the Deal in a heartbeat.
Of course it would. If we wanted no deal we needed to have started work 2 years ago to get everything organised and in place. The government produced some half arsed leaflets in September. A complete shambles for which I for one will not forgive May notwithstanding I support her deal right now.
Yet my company has been preparing for a no deal for a long time, as has the rest of my industry (or at least the parts I am aware of).
We really should not have to be told by Government to plan ahead.
But saying that the Government has neglected no deal planning.
Its almost like she wanted a take this or leave it choice (and the world will end if you leave it)
I fear your last point is true. Its been dishonest as well as incompetent from the start. I can understand why people are angry with her. But we have arrived at that choice and we need to take it.
Then the tories should never be let near the levers of power ever again
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
Not based upon the GE2017 where she blew a 20% lead in the polls and lost her majority
May got 42% in GE17 still, the highest Tory voteshare since 1983 even if Labour did better than expected
Irrelevant. She still blew her lead in the polls, still lost seats rather than gained them and still lost lost her majority.
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Can confirm
I’ve never heard this from anyone but Remainer expats.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
In Italy my experience was that there was some disappointment and apprehension that the Germans might be even more dominant without us but no hint of ridicule.
Last year I was at a conference in Copenhagen. Speaker after speaker gently teased British panel members over Brexit, always getting a good chortle from the audience.
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Can confirm
I’ve never heard this from anyone but Remainer expats.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
In Italy my experience was that there was some disappointment and apprehension that the Germans might be even more dominant without us but no hint of ridicule.
Last year I was at a conference in Copenhagen. Speaker after speaker gently teased British panel members over Brexit, always getting a good chortle from the audience.
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
You really need to offer more detail as a lot of the above is meaningless.
So what do you mean by "Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars"
I mean that any car imported into the EU has to have EU Type Approval (i.e. tests where they crash them into barriers etc) before it can legally be driven on EU roads:
Obviously but what impact has no deal got on getting type approval for UK made cars. Millions of cars made outside the EU get type approval and are sold into EU every year. Why are we so special that we will not get type approval if we follow the correct EU procedures?
Frankly, Labour considered a laughing stock on brexit according to QT.
Their position is incredibly, transparently, cynical but at least is open about prioritising getting Labour into power as the primary objective via a GE.
But they are nothing on the Tories. If the Tories don't want this Brexit, that's fine, they can have no Brexit and Corbyn as PM now for all I care. We shall have to hope he has a competent Cabinet and enough riotous backbenchers to rein him in, it cannot be worse than this current lot.
You seem to think all Tories are brexiters.
I know they are not. I voted Brexit myself, I'm not mad at the government or the Tories for trying to Brexit, quite the opposite in fact. But the Tories, because of their internal politics, are either advocating a no deal scenario I happen to think would be bad, or are preventing what may well be a crap deal on pie in the sky hopes of a nebulously better deal and thus risking no deal, and are still scheming about who gets to be PM next as if that bloody matters right now.
Now I am just following through on the logic of the most strident Brexiteers. They don't want a bad brexit, so they can have no brexit. Some of them will even admit to preferring that I am sure, given they say this deal is worse than what we had.
And given they have eradicated their pitch of competence, and it is laughable to suggest they could happily unite in government after all this, why should I be afraid of Corbyn, who I really really do not like? I don't even have to vote for him, so I can escape any blame for what his government may do, so it is win win.
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
You really need to offer more detail as a lot of the above is meaningless.
So what do you mean by "Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars"
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be supported.
And yet I bet polls won't back that up, given remaining and no deal still command significant support.
In any case it is MPs she needs to persuade, and we are still waiting to find out if a few more Cabinet Members will quit, so in fact the opposite is occurring as people supposedly on board like Gove are wrestling with tossing it out.
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
Not based upon the GE2017 where she blew a 20% lead in the polls and lost her majority
May got 42% in GE17 still, the highest Tory voteshare since 1983 even if Labour did better than expected
Irrelevant. She still blew her lead in the polls, still lost seats rather than gained them and still lost lost her majority.
Why on earth would business leaders do that. There is nothing in May’s Brexit deal for them and Hammond has done nothing to attract inward investment or boost productivity as Chancellor.
Because the alternative is no deal, with no preparation because our government is incompetent. But we are where we are as a pretty straight kind of guy once said.
At the moment, my "big" business is facing either no deal, or transition plus a commitment to retain the current arrangement as part of the future partnership. It would take the Deal in a heartbeat.
Of course it would. If we wanted no deal we needed to have started work 2 years ago to get everything organised and in place. The government produced some half arsed leaflets in September. A complete shambles for which I for one will not forgive May notwithstanding I support her deal right now.
Yet my company has been preparing for a no deal for a long time, as has the rest of my industry (or at least the parts I am aware of).
We really should not have to be told by Government to plan ahead.
But saying that the Government has neglected no deal planning.
Its almost like she wanted a take this or leave it choice (and the world will end if you leave it)
I am not aware that my hospital has made any plans for No Deal.
Do you think its possible plans are either prepared or under preparation above the level of your hospital?
Hint - As far as I can see that would be a yes.
As I say my industry faced up to the challenges and can trade through a no deal (or those parts I am familiar with anyway).
Nothing in any of the management meetings about it*, but I do have a meeting with the Chief Executive next week, so can ask him about it.
*And I see endless risk assessments on many other issues.
Frankly, Labour considered a laughing stock on brexit according to QT.
Plaid woman quite good, though she has a double barrelled name and sounds more Surrey than Wales
Some of them cannot even speak Welsh
To be fair, that makes her pretty representative of Welsh people!
Yes but for Plaid !!!!
I’m part Welsh, support the rugby team etc. The welsh language isn’t sustainable, and the amount spent on it is a shame on the Welsh administration given the state of the NHS and education in Wales.
What an absolute nonsense from Barry Gardiner - We'll have a customs union, but not THE customs union, but definitely not Turkey and do our own free trade deals on top !
Obviously but what impact has no deal got on getting type approval for UK made cars. Millions of cars made outside the EU get type approval and are sold into EU every year. Why are we so special that we will not get type approval if we follow the correct EU procedures?
None. It's just that the year or so while UK manufacturers submit their existing cars for re-approval in the EU might not be terribly conducive to not going bust in the meantime, and there's nothing the UK government can do to help if there's no deal.
Mark Serwotka With a PPB for Labour at every question. Also invoked the terrible argument to oppose the deal on a reverse appeal to authority argument.
The ERG and the plotters have misjudged the mood today. Folks I've spoken to who otherwise take little or no interest in politics have stated their admiration of May and think she should be allowed to get 'the thing done'. They're very fuzzy on the facts of course but the mood seems to be that May is to be commended for her determination.
Have to agree, based on various conversations with people in different settings, who pay little attention to politics, in recent couple of weeks.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
Not based upon the GE2017 where she blew a 20% lead in the polls and lost her majority
May got 42% in GE17 still, the highest Tory voteshare since 1983 even if Labour did better than expected
Irrelevant. She still blew her lead in the polls, still lost seats rather than gained them and still lost lost her majority.
True but she still got enough seats to end up PM
Tory MPs rallied around her and the DUP agreed to support her on key issues. Neither is still the case.
What an absolute nonsense from Barry Gardiner - We'll have a customs union, but not THE customs union, but definitely not Turkey and do our own free trade deals on top !
Unicorns on unicorns.
The whole Labour position is unsustainable. The sad reality is that if the ERG had accepted the deal we’d be ridiculing Labour at the moment...
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Can confirm
I’ve never heard this from anyone but Remainer expats.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
Strange isnt it
Almost like they are just saying what they want to be true
Several people seem to be blaming the government/Phil Hammond/David Cameron for not preparing for No Deal.
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman - An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft - Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars - No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU - No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU - Delays at French ports - An end to access to Galileo - The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement - An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines - An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
According to an audience member on Question Time it will be ok because we had the Atlantic convoys in the war.
We had a mercantile marine that consisted of more than the Isle of Wight Ferries during the war!
Meanwhile the news Stephen Lloyd will vote for May's deal means 8.33% of the Lib Dem HoC party will rebel against the whip. Meaning the party of Europe will be the second most split on May's deal when it comes to the vote. Hilarious.
Frankly, Labour considered a laughing stock on brexit according to QT.
Plaid woman quite good, though she has a double barrelled name and sounds more Surrey than Wales
Some of them cannot even speak Welsh
Most of Wales can't speak Welsh
Not really. It is taught in Schools. All my grand children can speak Welsh, indeed my children have a passable knowedge of it.
Also most local authority jobs require it and my sons partner who has just joined the police service has to go to Welsh classes
Most of my family live in Wales, many in Llandudno and Rhyl. They all learned at school. All but one consider it a waste of energy. My mother and all my aunts and uncles learned Welsh in the 60s/70s and can’t rememeber hardlya word. Because it isn’t a live language.
Instead we face a real risk of being stuck as supplicants back in the EU without some of our opt outs, probably without our rebate and absolutely no influence in any event as we will be a complete laughing stock.
Believe me, living outside the UK it's quite clear that the UK is already an international laughing stock.
Can confirm
I’ve never heard this from anyone but Remainer expats.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
Interesting given that Ireland has one of the largest approval ratings for membership in the entire EU! You must have been very lucky to meet just Irexiters.
What an absolute nonsense from Barry Gardiner - We'll have a customs union, but not THE customs union, but definitely not Turkey and do our own free trade deals on top !
Unicorns on unicorns.
The whole Labour position is unsustainable. The sad reality is that if the ERG had accepted the deal we’d be ridiculing Labour at the moment...
But the ERG have never wanted a deal. It should not be a surprise.
What an absolute nonsense from Barry Gardiner - We'll have a customs union, but not THE customs union, but definitely not Turkey and do our own free trade deals on top !
Unicorns on unicorns.
The whole Labour position is unsustainable. The sad reality is that if the had accepted the deal we’d be ridiculing Labour at the moment...
The ERG has not exactly shown steel, a lot of veiled threats, hot air and pin striped suits - whats the best they can manage - JRM making a plummy speech, they are nowhere near as influential as they would have us believe.
I have to record my admiration for the Prime Minister's tenacity and her dutiful "indefagibility" to do the right thing for the nation. She is admirable in her dogged determination to deliver a sensible "Brexit". How she has the stamina to sustain this effort is quite amazing.
Comments
Therefore they should be happy to remain. No brexit better than a bad brexit. And no more moaning about it afterwards.
Theresa May should have rejected the deal outright when they heard what Selmayr was up to.
Had it been 65% Leave and 50% for No Deal then the EU may have felt we believed it but no it was 52% Leave and just 32% for No Deal, the EU knew the Brexit vote was built on a lie ie Leave only scraped a win by promising voters a mythical land of milk and honey and hence they also knew they could dictate terms knowing the British would capitulate or reverse Brexit rather than accept No Deal
If true expect the Cabinet to do their duty and act swiftly...
I'm curious to know what preparation the UK should have be done for:
- No access to European markets for our fisherman
- An immediate end to our aerospace components being certified for use in aircraft
- Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars
- No legal basis for British ex-pats to continue living in the EU
- No approval for UK agricultural products to be sold in the EU
- Delays at French ports
- An end to access to Galileo
- The impact of No Deal on the Good Friday Agreement
- An end to the existing arrangements for licensing of veterinary and human medicines
- An end to recognition by EU countries of the Certificates of Competency of UK seafarers
I'm sure this is all terribly easy. It must be so because Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't think any of this is a problem.
Last time I went on holiday, to Dublin, unprompted and without knowledge of my position more people expressed admiration for the Leave vote...
https://www.ft.com/content/f4788214-b1bf-11e8-99ca-68cf89602132
Do you reckon we might see the floor raised higher than 50% in the (near) future?
We really should not have to be told by Government to plan ahead.
But saying that the Government has neglected no deal planning.
Its almost like she wanted a take this or leave it choice (and the world will end if you leave it)
But they are nothing on the Tories. If the Tories don't want this Brexit, that's fine, they can have no Brexit and Corbyn as PM now for all I care. We shall have to hope he has a competent Cabinet and enough riotous backbenchers to rein him in, it cannot be worse than this current lot.
I think the Cabinet will realize the DUP is going to pull the plug and May's deal can't get through the Commons and they'll tell Theresa May she's lost their confidence and they'll all resign en-mass unless she goes.
Never underestimate the Tories self-preservation instincts. Get rid of Theresa and hope something turns up. Or face a January election and probable annihilation at the hands of Corbyn?
It's a no brainer what they'll do...
So what do you mean by "Type approval by the EU for UK-manufactured cars"
It's not serious.
As the poll also makes clear if not May's Deal it will be Remain
https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-brits-now-against-brexit-and-back-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-11555078
May is the worst Tory Prime Minister on offer, apart from all the others.
In any case it is MPs she needs to persuade, and we are still waiting to find out if a few more Cabinet Members will quit, so in fact the opposite is occurring as people supposedly on board like Gove are wrestling with tossing it out.
May has more support out in the hinterland than appears the case.
The ERG have made a huge miscalulation today and this thread amply demonstrates the growing contempt for them
And you forecast the daily mail circulation would collapse, since the new editor has arrived it is growing its circulation
Dave forbade it.
The Original Sin, since exacerbated by Theresa&Hammond&Co.
Pretty sure there will be no developments now until the morning.............
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_type_approval
Hint - As far as I can see that would be a yes.
As I say my industry faced up to the challenges and can trade through a no deal (or those parts I am familiar with anyway).
Now I am just following through on the logic of the most strident Brexiteers. They don't want a bad brexit, so they can have no brexit. Some of them will even admit to preferring that I am sure, given they say this deal is worse than what we had.
And given they have eradicated their pitch of competence, and it is laughable to suggest they could happily unite in government after all this, why should I be afraid of Corbyn, who I really really do not like? I don't even have to vote for him, so I can escape any blame for what his government may do, so it is win win.
*And I see endless risk assessments on many other issues.
Moving away from Welsh will be a bonus for plaid.
Unicorns on unicorns.
2015 - Election shock
2016 - Referendum shock
2017 - Election shock
2018 - Brexit???
Almost like they are just saying what they want to be true
Also most local authority jobs require it and my sons partner who has just joined the police service has to go to Welsh classes