If I were the EU and wanted to give May the biggest amount of help without wanting to be seen to be actually helping, I’d be trying to get an EU leader or two or even the full 27 to be saying something along the lines of we’re not extending Article 50.
That puts paid to the whole “oh if we vote this deal down we can ask the nice EU for a bit more time so that we can do some more interminable negotiations and get the magic bean deal that’s just out there!”
I agree. The EU must be fed up to the back teeth with Britain. They should simply say that this is the deal - take it or leave it - so that our self-indulgent politicians realise that the choice is this or No Deal. Those who think that a different government will be able to get some better deal are delusional. If anything the EU may skew the deal even more in its favour. But I rather suspect that they want an end to this interminable saga, made worse by the failure of so many Brexiteers to live in the real world.
Raab - a man who apparently didn't realise the importance of the Dover-Calais route is, frankly, no loss.
I hope the ECJ rules we can't revoke Art 50. We don't deserve to be in the EU.
You’re better off not voting for something you disagree with.
But you're better off abstaining on Brexit - if you want to paint it as a Tory project.
Just sit back and let the Tories tear chunks out of themselves.
But no....Labour has to join in the shit-fest.
Politically it might be better for labour if the Tories squeeze through a bad deal.
But since the deal only passes with their support they can sink it or not. They would share, quite rightly, some opprobrium if they voted down a deal and we ended up with no deal.
However the Tories would, rightly, take the lions share of any ill feeling. They are driving it and with allies should have a majority so would be the focus.
Though the Tories are now seen as odious self serving vile incompetents I don't sense any goodwill has passed to Labour. If anything they are seen as the same and opportunists to boot.
Having discovered that Britain is an island close to France, Dominic Raab has now worked out that he has spent the last few months working ion a deal that essentially keeps the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market for the forseeable future. If he were to become PM he will need ot speed up his ability to learn and absorb information.
But many, I dare say most, Labour MPs would welcome costly chaos. The remainers think it would end in another referendum, which I think is probably right. The leadership would love to inherit a chaotic crisis, the worse the chaos the greater the chance of putting through the kind of revolutionary change McDonnell has spent his life dreaming about. It's straight out of the Marxist playbook.
But many, I dare say most, Labour MPs would welcome costly chaos. The remainers think it would end in another referendum, which I think is probably right. The leadership would love to inherit a chaotic crisis, the worse the chaos the greater the chance of putting through the kind of revolutionary change McDonnell has spent his life dreaming about. It's straight out of the Marxist playbook.
Having discovered that Britain is an island close to France, Dominic Raab has now worked out that he has spent the last few months working ion a deal that essentially keeps the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market for the forseeable future. If he were to become PM he will need ot speed up his ability to learn and absorb information.
Genuine question here... did May really not have unequivocal agreement from Raab before taking the draft agreement to Cabinet? If not, that does seem a bit rash.
It's genuinely baffling to me, if there was one person in the cabinet that I assumed must support the deal it would be the Brexit secretary. If he didn't agree how did it even get to this stage?
Haven't all these ERG members worked out the absolute horrific damage they're doing to the Tories right now. The DUP must be absolutely laughing at them.
I always try to vote for a candidate rather than a party. But there's no way I could ever vote for a Conservative Party led by a Brexiteer.
No fucking way.
They've lost me as a voter. And the alternatives are voting for a party led by an anti-Semite and another led by the invisible man ...
I resigned from the Lib Dems yesterday, I'd vote for the Tories lead by May in a heartbeat - but would actively consider voting Labour if one of the treacherous brexiteers took charge. Considering my Dad is a Tory mayor that'd be a step I've never taken before.
Out of interest, which way would you fall if the Lib Dems were led by someone with presence and personality (i.e. Moran or Swinson)?
I hope pb will pick up the pace a little today. This is seismic and whilst Trump's future is also of great interest, we're in the middle of the biggest political and constitutional earthquake in modern British history. There are betting opportunities galore but it's a minefield.
Indeed they are. The deal is dead, second referendum must be odds on now.
It was dead long before it was even announced. There's not much point even voting on it except for formalities sake to confirm it is dead. That people beyond the headbangers are against it will ensure no waverers back it either.
As for Mays premiership that's irrelevant, a deal or not are far more important. But I still don't see who could take over from her and actually get anything done.
It has to be a referendum - a GE has no guarantee of resolving things, a caretaker Tory leader has no ability to resolve things, a referendum at least gives some instruction.
Haven't all these ERG members worked out the absolute horrific damage they're doing to the Tories right now. The DUP must be absolutely laughing at them.
I always try to vote for a candidate rather than a party. But there's no way I could ever vote for a Conservative Party led by a Brexiteer.
No fucking way.
They've lost me as a voter. And the alternatives are voting for a party led by an anti-Semite and another led by the invisible man ...
I resigned from the Lib Dems yesterday, I'd vote for the Tories lead by May in a heartbeat - but would actively consider voting Labour if one of the treacherous brexiteers took charge. Considering my Dad is a Tory mayor that'd be a step I've never taken before.
Out of interest, which way would you fall if the Lib Dems were led by someone with presence and personality (i.e. Moran or Swinson)?
I've not ruled out voting Lib Dem - just don't feel I'm sufficiently with the party to remain a member. Cable was an error though, whoever leads next needs to have a thorough contest.
Genuine question here... did May really not have unequivocal agreement from Raab before taking the draft agreement to Cabinet? If not, that does seem a bit rash.
It's genuinely baffling to me, if there was one person in the cabinet that I assumed must support the deal it would be the Brexit secretary. If he didn't agree how did it even get to this stage?
Exactly. If Raab - who must have known the details days before now - was unhappy, he should have resigned then (or threatened to do so, perhaps preventing publication). He knew when he took the job that he was in effect May's deputy and that May was herself the de facto Brexit Secretary because the issue was so important that the PM had to take personal charge and would in any event have to conclude the deal in person at a European Council. If he wasn't prepared to work under those conditions he should never have taken the job.
Genuine question here... did May really not have unequivocal agreement from Raab before taking the draft agreement to Cabinet? If not, that does seem a bit rash.
It's genuinely baffling to me, if there was one person in the cabinet that I assumed must support the deal it would be the Brexit secretary. If he didn't agree how did it even get to this stage?
Surely he didn’t go along with it whilst all along intending to resign at this point?
Having discovered that Britain is an island close to France, Dominic Raab has now worked out that he has spent the last few months working ion a deal that essentially keeps the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market for the forseeable future. If he were to become PM he will need ot speed up his ability to learn and absorb information.
Post of the day so far.
I agree. Southam for POTY!!!
Strikes me this whole exercise has been a process of explaining to Brexiteers that we pooled some sovereignty with EU in order that we didn't have take rules from the huge trading block next door to us without any say.
If I were the EU and wanted to give May the biggest amount of help without wanting to be seen to be actually helping, I’d be trying to get an EU leader or two or even the full 27 to be saying something along the lines of we’re not extending Article 50.
That puts paid to the whole “oh if we vote this deal down we can ask the nice EU for a bit more time so that we can do some more interminable negotiations and get the magic bean deal that’s just out there!”
I agree. The EU must be fed up to the back teeth with Britain. They should simply say that this is the deal - take it or leave it - so that our self-indulgent politicians realise that the choice is this or No Deal. Those who think that a different government will be able to get some better deal are delusional. If anything the EU may skew the deal even more in its favour. But I rather suspect that they want an end to this interminable saga, made worse by the failure of so many Brexiteers to live in the real world.
Raab - a man who apparently didn't realise the importance of the Dover-Calais route is, frankly, no loss.
The Brexiteers are a big problem. But it's the lack of support from continuity remainers and the 'a new negotiation will work out fine don't worry' crowd that prevents this deal from getting through. The Brexiteers we knew would be against. These neo Brexiteers as I shall call them(for they adopt the same tactics of bland assumption it will work out) think the EU will vastly change position under pm boris/Corbyn. I bet not even the EU saying otherwise would convince them.
Was obvious watching Peston's show last night that the deal is dead. The contempt for it and May amongst ardent Remainers like Heidi Allen and Brexiteers in Dorries alike said it all.
With Raab quitting , and others surely following, I can't see the "deal" even surviving the day.
And possibly not even the PM either.
Biggest crisis Britain has faced since WWII.
And no obvious way out of this nightmare.
What do we do?
Simple. Remain.
But remain doesn't sort out the issue, which is that a significant proportion of our population - and a majority in the case of the 2016 referendum - are not happy with being in the EU.
The *only* way remain is a goer is after another referendum, *if* it gets a large majority. If there is such a referendum and leave wins, or there is a narrow remain wins, we're still in the sh*t.
Just remaining means we'll go through all of this again in a couple of years.
The lesson for leavers is that if they want to leave they need to put together an actual programme and win a general election to get a mandate for it. The Conservatives seem to have become the leave party, and the referendum shows that it is a policy that can attract popular support. So there is nothing stopping us leaving the EU. It just needs some actual work to be put in.
Having discovered that Britain is an island close to France, Dominic Raab has now worked out that he has spent the last few months working ion a deal that essentially keeps the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market for the forseeable future. If he were to become PM he will need ot speed up his ability to learn and absorb information.
Post of the day so far.
I agree. Southam for POTY!!!
Strikes me this whole exercise has been a process of explaining to Brexiteers that we pooled some sovereignty with EU in order that we didn't have take rules from the huge trading block next door to us without any say.
They must be spectacularly thick if it takes a hammer this big to ram it through their skulls....
Haven't all these ERG members worked out the absolute horrific damage they're doing to the Tories right now. The DUP must be absolutely laughing at them.
ERG don't care. They are as obsessed with the purity of their vision as any Marxist dreamer.
It is technically at least honourable to put country before party if they they think the deal is that bad. But unless they all back no deal it means a lot of them should become remainers as no brexit is better than bad brexit.
You’re better off not voting for something you disagree with.
But you're better off abstaining on Brexit - if you want to paint it as a Tory project.
Just sit back and let the Tories tear chunks out of themselves.
But no....Labour has to join in the shit-fest.
Politically it might be better for labour if the Tories squeeze through a bad deal.
But since the deal only passes with their support they can sink it or not. They would share, quite rightly, some opprobrium if they voted down a deal and we ended up with no deal.
However the Tories would, rightly, take the lions share of any ill feeling. They are driving it and with allies should have a majority so would be the focus.
Though the Tories are now seen as odious self serving vile incompetents I don't sense any goodwill has passed to Labour. If anything they are seen as the same and opportunists to boot.
Maybe but I bet in an election enough will consider seeing if labour get a turn will it make a difference
Having discovered that Britain is an island close to France, Dominic Raab has now worked out that he has spent the last few months working ion a deal that essentially keeps the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market for the forseeable future. If he were to become PM he will need ot speed up his ability to learn and absorb information.
Post of the day so far.
I agree. Southam for POTY!!!
Strikes me this whole exercise has been a process of explaining to Brexiteers that we pooled some sovereignty with EU in order that we didn't have take rules from the huge trading block next door to us without any say.
They must be spectacularly thick if it takes a hammer this big to ram it through their skulls....
You might think that, I couldn't possibly etc etc...
Comments
There are betting opportunities galore but it's a minefield.
As for Mays premiership that's irrelevant, a deal or not are far more important. But I still don't see who could take over from her and actually get anything done.
It has to be a referendum - a GE has no guarantee of resolving things, a caretaker Tory leader has no ability to resolve things, a referendum at least gives some instruction.
NEW THREAD
But that won't help either. The anti dealers reasons for not supporting It are too strong to change their minds even if May wins a confidence vote.
A nation at ease with itself.