"The outer edge of remain appears every bit as uncompromising as the outer edge of leave."
It always was, and the problem is it thinks it knows better than anyone else, so compromise is alien.
As a Leaver, I suspect this will run. It's not good and it relies on politicians meaning what they say (unlikely, I know), but there is a weariness around now, which means normal people might go with it.
So, will the 48 threshold be hit today? If the Tories decide that now is the time for a leadership contest, we can put to bed forever the idea of them being the pro-business patriotic party.
heavy night ?
Not at all. These are fascinating times. We either get BINO or no Brexit at all from here. The Bucanneers’ delusions have been exposed. The issue now is precisely how many loons there are in the Conservative party still looking for unicorns.
I agree. For the first time I've begun to wonder if Brexit might be avoided completely. The extreme Brexiteers seem determined to push for a final victory with nowhere near the numbers to achieve it. More power to their elbow I say.
Fire is now incoming from the Remain side. Jo Johnson, the unnamed junior minister, T Blair and so on. The spin on the deal might be reassuring but the fact it satisfies neither extreme is not, since they are the ones most likely to have been following developments.
TBF the fact that Blair's against it suggests it's a good deal and his opposition makes it likely to be popular.
You are right that Blair's opposition, like his statements about anything at all, may be counterproductive, but there is a real concern that the deal is already starting to unravel after the initial favourable spin. We are used to seeing this with the budget: great headlines until the experts read the small print over the next few days.
What the hell have remainers got to be upset about?
The outer edge of remain appears every bit as uncompromising as the outer edge of leave.
Extremes are extreme and the rational middle always fails to understand their religion like devotion to their version of the truth. It's a sub-Trump binary view of the word, compromise means that I've lost rather than gained something I might not have had at all.
Apart from the massive cultural appropriation gaffe of the Rosa Parks civil rights protest only happening because a white woman sorted it, I have one massive gripe with the new Doctor. There's really only one skill required as the Doctor. It's the sole screen test needed.
How much do Tory (and Labour?) MPs care about Northern Ireland? May said that separating NI from GB wasn't acceptable - she lied.
It has been surprising how many Conservatives are indifferent to the fate of Northern Ireland, and Scotland for that matter. It is not a crude English nationalism but rather that many seem to know nothing and care less.
To take a topical example, how many pb Tories could have named the full Northern Ireland ministerial team last night?
Apart from the massive cultural appropriation gaffe of the Rosa Parks civil rights protest only happening because a white woman sorted it, I have one massive gripe with the new Doctor. There's really only one skill required as the Doctor. It's the sole screen test needed.
Can they run away?
The new Doctor runs away like a five year old.
The BBC rarely knows when a show needs a rest. NewGen Dr Who has travelled far up its own colon and needs a rethink. Will the BBC do that? Have I Got News for You calls to say no.
So, will the 48 threshold be hit today? If the Tories decide that now is the time for a leadership contest, we can put to bed forever the idea of them being the pro-business patriotic party.
heavy night ?
Not at all. These are fascinating times. We either get BINO or no Brexit at all from here. The Bucanneers’ delusions have been exposed. The issue now is precisely how many loons there are in the Conservative party still looking for unicorns.
I agree. For the first time I've begun to wonder if Brexit might be avoided completely. The extreme Brexiteers seem determined to push for a final victory with nowhere near the numbers to achieve it. More power to their elbow I say.
Fire is now incoming from the Remain side. Jo Johnson, the unnamed junior minister, T Blair and so on. The spin on the deal might be reassuring but the fact it satisfies neither extreme is not, since they are the ones most likely to have been following developments.
TBF the fact that Blair's against it suggests it's a good deal and his opposition makes it likely to be popular.
You are right that Blair's opposition, like his statements about anything at all, may be counterproductive, but there is a real concern that the deal is already starting to unravel after the initial favourable spin. We are used to seeing this with the budget: great headlines until the experts read the small print over the next few days.
In what way is it unravelling? Not seeing that. There are concerns about how little it says about the future relationship, about the effect of the backstop and the extent to which we will be stuck with a common rule book but these are not exactly new points.
Apart from the massive cultural appropriation gaffe of the Rosa Parks civil rights protest only happening because a white woman sorted it, I have one massive gripe with the new Doctor. There's really only one skill required as the Doctor. It's the sole screen test needed.
Can they run away?
The new Doctor runs away like a five year old.
The BBC rarely knows when a show needs a rest. NewGen Dr Who has travelled far up its own colon and needs a rethink. Will the BBC do that? Have I Got News for You calls to say no.
The last time I watched Dr Who Sylvester McCoy was portraying him.
The Shailesh Vara letter is pathetic. Regardless of which side he campaigned on in 2016 it sounds like he has no idea what leaving the EU actually means.
What the hell have remainers got to be upset about?
The outer edge of remain appears every bit as uncompromising as the outer edge of leave.
Extremes are extreme and the rational middle always fails to understand their religion like devotion to their version of the truth. It's a sub-Trump binary view of the word, compromise means that I've lost rather than gained something I might not have had at all.
The rational middle is massively under-represented on the media with regards to this deal right now. It's all BETRAYAL BETRAYAL BETRAYAL or screamin g remainers
Apart from the massive cultural appropriation gaffe of the Rosa Parks civil rights protest only happening because a white woman sorted it, I have one massive gripe with the new Doctor. There's really only one skill required as the Doctor. It's the sole screen test needed.
Can they run away?
The new Doctor runs away like a five year old.
The BBC rarely knows when a show needs a rest. NewGen Dr Who has travelled far up its own colon and needs a rethink. Will the BBC do that? Have I Got News for You calls to say no.
The last time I watched Dr Who Sylvester McCoy was portraying him.
Which was why it needed to be terminated with extreme prejudice at that point.
That wouldn't be difficult. The Moffat/Capaldi combination was embarrassingly poor.
Yes, I stopped watching it then, not yet back in the habit.
Personally, of recent Doctors I liked Ecclestone. He had an edge of nastiness and darkness that brought something to the character. Not excessive, but an edge of cruelty like in Connery's Bond.
So, will the 48 threshold be hit today? If the Tories decide that now is the time for a leadership contest, we can put to bed forever the idea of them being the pro-business patriotic party.
heavy night ?
Not at all. These are fascinating times. We either get BINO or no Brexit at all from here. The Bucanneers’ delusions have been exposed. The issue now is precisely how many loons there are in the Conservative party still looking for unicorns.
I agree. For the first time I've begun to wonder if Brexit might be avoided completely. The extreme Brexiteers seem determined to push for a final victory with nowhere near the numbers to achieve it. More power to their elbow I say.
Fire is now incoming from the Remain side. Jo Johnson, the unnamed junior minister, T Blair and so on. The spin on the deal might be reassuring but the fact it satisfies neither extreme is not, since they are the ones most likely to have been following developments.
TBF the fact that Blair's against it suggests it's a good deal and his opposition makes it likely to be popular.
You are right that Blair's opposition, like his statements about anything at all, may be counterproductive, but there is a real concern that the deal is already starting to unravel after the initial favourable spin. We are used to seeing this with the budget: great headlines until the experts read the small print over the next few days.
It had initial favourable spin? I was told it meant perpetual vassalage and the break up of the UK.
Then I read it and realised that was bollocks. Apart from anything else, it isn't permanent.
There are issues over payments and customs and regulations. But actually this is infinitely preferable to no deal and arguably given the chaos breaking out in Europe preferable to remain (which isn't actually an option anyway).
In the 0.01% chance of a three way referendum on this, I'd back this deal without hesitation.
Apart from the massive cultural appropriation gaffe of the Rosa Parks civil rights protest only happening because a white woman sorted it, I have one massive gripe with the new Doctor. There's really only one skill required as the Doctor. It's the sole screen test needed.
Can they run away?
The new Doctor runs away like a five year old.
The BBC rarely knows when a show needs a rest. NewGen Dr Who has travelled far up its own colon and needs a rethink. Will the BBC do that? Have I Got News for You calls to say no.
The last time I watched Dr Who Sylvester McCoy was portraying him.
Talking of outer edges, so close for Rashid. I would back England's tail against pretty much anyone else's in international cricket at the moment but it would still be nice to have a lead going into the second innings.
The Shailesh Vara letter is pathetic. Regardless of which side he campaigned on in 2016 it sounds like he has no idea what leaving the EU actually means.
Nor does he care.
It's very odd. The Conservative and Unionist Party not knowing or caring about any part of the Union outside of England. And the same party bankrolled by big business and city gamblers not knowing or caring about the needs of big business or the city.
You'd think they'd all come down with foaming dog fever or something
I've only seen the trailers for Dr Who - I stopped watching in the mid-sixties, But you're right about her locomotion, Usain Bolt's crown is safe. But it is only a cartoon series really, so it doesn't matter.
What the hell have remainers got to be upset about?
The outer edge of remain appears every bit as uncompromising as the outer edge of leave.
Extremes are extreme and the rational middle always fails to understand their religion like devotion to their version of the truth. It's a sub-Trump binary view of the word, compromise means that I've lost rather than gained something I might not have had at all.
The rational middle is massively under-represented on the media with regards to this deal right now. It's all BETRAYAL BETRAYAL BETRAYAL or screamin g remainers
Newsnight was a striking example of this yesterday evening. A parade of pillocks.
What the hell have remainers got to be upset about?
The outer edge of remain appears every bit as uncompromising as the outer edge of leave.
Extremes are extreme and the rational middle always fails to understand their religion like devotion to their version of the truth. It's a sub-Trump binary view of the word, compromise means that I've lost rather than gained something I might not have had at all.
The rational middle is massively under-represented on the media with regards to this deal right now. It's all BETRAYAL BETRAYAL BETRAYAL or screamin g remainers
The media likes colour. "It's ok, please stop talking about Brexit and live with this" is not a story. Mogg going on about enslavement is a colourful story. Peston breathlessly reporting on something where he knows little because Brown is not in office and hasn't leaked it to him is colour. Loons stockpiling Farage's smegma is story.
Anyone resigning today/triggering leadership contest will be considered sub Mark Reckless scum.
Demonstrating a level of stiff upper lip and constancy of @SeanT dimensions
I’m a patriot.
This deal stops the disaster of no deal and also allows to rejoin quite easily.
I agree, it certainly makes Rejoin a possibility, but this Deal is a fissile one that cannot last. It will end in either Rejoin or WTO and most likely the end of the Union.
It could be improved by FOM, the only one of the 4 freedoms applying to ordinary citizens rather than capital, but as I am rich enough to retire to Europe that isn't the biggest problem for me personally.
More from Vanity Fair on the May-Trump phone call:
Trump has never been known for his diplomatic skills—berating Australia shortly after taking office in 2017 comes to mind—but that he couldn’t even hold it together to let May flatter him during a routine phone call suggests this “very stable genius” has become even more unglued.
So, will the 48 threshold be hit today? If the Tories decide that now is the time for a leadership contest, we can put to bed forever the idea of them being the pro-business patriotic party.
I’m guessing that there might be up to 47 letters in with rumours of several more that never seem to arrive. The key today is May’s statement to the House. She needs to make the case for her deal and persuade potential supporters on either side of the House that TINA applies once again.
She is actually quite good at responding to questions in that kind of scenario. She does detail well. It’s the big vision/inspiration thing she finds more difficult.
So far Boris “resignations overnight” have not yielded anything - with Ms McVey and her FOBT most likely casualties.
Still hoping Chris Grayling will go. No money on it, just think it would improve the governance of our country.
Mundell and Ruthie are keeping heads well down, wonder when they will do the right thing.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Anyone resigning today/triggering leadership contest will be considered sub Mark Reckless scum.
Demonstrating a level of stiff upper lip and constancy of @SeanT dimensions
I’m a patriot.
This deal stops the disaster of no deal and also allows to rejoin quite easily.
I agree, it certainly makes Rejoin a possibility, but this Deal is a fissile one that cannot last. It will end in either Rejoin or WTO and most likely the end of the Union.
It could be improved by FOM, the only one of the 4 freedoms applying to ordinary citizens rather than capital, but as I am rich enough to retire to Europe that isn't the biggest problem for me personally.
My main reason for supporting the deal is that acccepting it means staying in is far less likely.
Rejoin won’t have the oomph to overcome the direction of travel.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
"Labour" …. Does Corbyn have full command of his party? I don't think so.
I'm not sure why do many here seem to think that voting down the deal is a Corbynite project. People like Blair and Starmer are driving a no vote too, probably much more stridently and with much more passion than Corbyn
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Prepared to sell out his country for the chance of a general election.
Anyone resigning today/triggering leadership contest will be considered sub Mark Reckless scum.
Demonstrating a level of stiff upper lip and constancy of @SeanT dimensions
I’m a patriot.
This deal stops the disaster of no deal and also allows to rejoin quite easily.
I agree, it certainly makes Rejoin a possibility, but this Deal is a fissile one that cannot last. It will end in either Rejoin or WTO and most likely the end of the Union.
It could be improved by FOM, the only one of the 4 freedoms applying to ordinary citizens rather than capital, but as I am rich enough to retire to Europe that isn't the biggest problem for me personally.
My main reason for supporting the deal is that acccepting it means staying in is far less likely.
Rejoin won’t have the oomph to overcome the direction of travel.
Scottish independence would, and rejoin would be an outcome of the UK divorce.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Prepared to sell out his country for the chance of a general election.
Of course he is. He's a third rate populist who because of his wealth and family connections has lived blissfully insulated from reality all his life. He genuinely thinks he's right. Why would he need to compromise.
Such people are dangerous. At least his fellow ideologues Trotsky and Lenin were however intelligent.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
See williamglenn’s recent post with an embedded tweet. It looks like the public don’t even like the deal. Given that it seems something of a reach to believe they’ll be angry with Corbyn for opposing it. It’s early days of course.
You’re better off not voting for something you disagree with.
But you're better off abstaining on Brexit - if you want to paint it as a Tory project.
Just sit back and let the Tories tear chunks out of themselves.
But no....Labour has to join in the shit-fest.
They don't need to "paint" it as a Tory project, it already is one. So Labour's choice is to vote against the Tory party to see it go into meltdown or give it a free pass to inflict a Brexit they disagree with on the country and move on to implementing the rest of their agenda.
Shouldn't be a difficult choice for Labour, but I'm not convinced we won't see a bunch of rebels from the Umunna wing
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
The non Tory centre is against the deal.
As that category includes both ydoethur and me, you are wrong.
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
"The outer edge of remain appears every bit as uncompromising as the outer edge of leave."
It always was, and the problem is it thinks it knows better than anyone else, so compromise is alien.
As a Leaver, I suspect this will run. It's not good and it relies on politicians meaning what they say (unlikely, I know), but there is a weariness around now, which means normal people might go with it.
Tend to agree with this view, As a Remainer, Its clearly not a better deal than membership, but it is a deal when no deal would knock 10% off our economy in pretty quick order as well as disrupting millions of lives for years to come. The Brexit fanatics may not be getting the unicorn rainbow they wanted, but they are getting Brexit. If they decide to screw this up, then there will most likely be a second referendum and no Brexit at all.
The PM looks like the only adult in the playground. Even Sir Kier Starmer- who I rate- was struggling to attack this on the Today Programme this morning. I'm beginning to think that the PM may even get this through the Commons and if she does, I think there will be a reappraisal of her reputation and quite possibly a lot of humble pie being eaten by her internal enemies...
Meanwhile another crisis seems to be brewing in the EU... Leaders talking about a European Army almost always means that they don't want to talk about another financial crisis
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
The non Tory centre is against the deal.
They might be against the deal, but as soon as the consquence of rejecting this deal is.....no deal. then the issue will move onto that.
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Maybe reserve some of that fury for May, with whom so much of the blame lies?
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Given that there is a clear treaty provision for Article 50 extension with the agreement of the European Council at the request of the UK, a complete crashout *cannot* happen unless the British Prime Minister and the Council actively decide to let it.
Anyone resigning today/triggering leadership contest will be considered sub Mark Reckless scum.
Demonstrating a level of stiff upper lip and constancy of @SeanT dimensions
I’m a patriot.
This deal stops the disaster of no deal and also allows to rejoin quite easily.
I agree, it certainly makes Rejoin a possibility, but this Deal is a fissile one that cannot last. It will end in either Rejoin or WTO and most likely the end of the Union.
It could be improved by FOM, the only one of the 4 freedoms applying to ordinary citizens rather than capital, but as I am rich enough to retire to Europe that isn't the biggest problem for me personally.
My main reason for supporting the deal is that acccepting it means staying in is far less likely.
Rejoin won’t have the oomph to overcome the direction of travel.
Certainly Blind BINO Brexit does still mean a significant break with the EU, but where it ends up is anyones guess. The only certainty is that it will dominate political discourse for a decade. This is only round one.
Presumably CU means EU rules on antique books continue for the duration?
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Maybe reserve some of that fury for May, with whom so much of the blame lies?
May has got the best bloody deal anyone could. May isn't to blame for this shitshow, she didn't call the referendum and took a hospital pass to become PM. Her sense of duty is frankly amazing - better than any of the rest of the complete shower in the commons. I'm most pissed off with the ERG, traitors to a man.
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Maybe reserve some of that fury for May, with whom so much of the blame lies?
No, the fury belongs against the Brexiteers who wanted something that is harmful to the country, and are not willing to compromise in any way.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
The non Tory centre is against the deal.
They might be against the deal, but as soon as the consquence of rejecting this deal is.....no deal. then the issue will move onto that.
That’s bullshit used by the govt to strong arm the vote . Other outcomes are possible.
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Given that there is a clear treaty provision for Article 50 extension with the agreement of the European Council at the request of the UK, a complete crashout *cannot* happen unless the British Prime Minister and the Council actively decide to let it.
On the basis that a 'deal' has been agreed, the Council could be well inclinced to not offer to re-open negotiations.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
The non Tory centre is against the deal.
They might be against the deal, but as soon as the consquence of rejecting this deal is.....no deal. then the issue will move onto that.
It that’s bullshit used by the govt to strong arm the vote . Other outcomes are possible.
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Given that there is a clear treaty provision for Article 50 extension with the agreement of the European Council at the request of the UK, a complete crashout *cannot* happen unless the British Prime Minister and the Council actively decide to let it.
On the basis that a 'deal' has been agreed, the Council could be well inclinced to not offer to re-open negotiations.
An extension doesn't mean a re-opening of negotiations. They can just leave the deal on the table until the UK has decided what to do.
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Maybe reserve some of that fury for May, with whom so much of the blame lies?
Indeed, she has said "You can eat my shit sandwiches - or you can starve."
We could have had shit sandwiches a year ago. The lack of progress - underpinned by an utter lack of ambition - is what boils my piss. And what will make me apoplectic will be when Olly Robbin gets a gong for his services in delivering Brexit.
Trump will stand again in 2020, his ego will demand it and provided the base sticks with him, he will again be re nominated. The GOP also held the Senate which limits the actions the Democrats can take against him.
If I were Trump I would not worry too much about the midterms either, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both saw their parties do even worse than he did in their first midterms in 1994 and 2010 and both were comfortably re elected 2 years later against Bob Dole and Mitt Romney. The Democrats also have no brilliant Governor or Senator in the wings waiting to take Trump on and who can win over the liberal Democratic base either
As it's now clear that the only choices on offer are the deal, no deal, or no Brexit, a couple of thoughts. First, the plebiscite which is the only way out of the mess has to offer those three options. A binary offer wouldn't solve the political, party or legitimacy crises. Second preference is a reasonable way of interpreting the results, but there are others - and there's no reason that the analysis mechanism needs to be set in stone.
Second, it's rather odd that although we can use any mechanism we like for a public vote, Westminster is limited by tradition and by architecture to binary divisions. Why can't MPs vote with AV? Why can't they express complex preferences? If that was on the table, then there might possibly be a better solution to the trilemma.
My initial reaction was no, but having slept on it, I can see it as a step forward of sorts. What is the alternative now?
Going back to demand major changes isn't going to happen and only the dim-witted believe that. Jezza can legitimately push that line, but even Starmer can't keep a straight face.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
The non Tory centre is against the deal.
They might be against the deal, but as soon as the consquence of rejecting this deal is.....no deal. then the issue will move onto that.
It that’s bullshit used by the govt to strong arm the vote . Other outcomes are possible.
I don't think they are.
Extension and continued negotiations is definitely possible. Retraction of A50 is in all likelihood possible, albeit since the question has not been asked not 100% confirmed.
So Labour wants an election SO BADLY they will own No Deal Brexit to get one?
What could possibly go wrong?
No, Brexit is a Tory project. If it fails then like Iraq, the voters will know who to blame.
With this important difference - Iraq would have happened regardless of the result of the vote, and the majority of the Labour party supported it.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Not forgiven by some Tories maybe. Mays party is government because it has more seats than Labour. The fact it can’t marshall them in support of its own plan is no ones fault but it’s own.
And those in the centre of British politics - a growing unrepresented contingent deeply disillusioned with the two main parties.
The non Tory centre is against the deal.
They might be against the deal, but as soon as the consquence of rejecting this deal is.....no deal. then the issue will move onto that.
It that’s bullshit used by the govt to strong arm the vote . Other outcomes are possible.
Brexit means Brexit. I shall be taking a short posting holiday (hoorah! cry the crowd) as the signal to noise ratio is a bit low at the moment (not this esteemed board ofc, but the media & political classes having a nervous breakdown isn't particularly edifying).
Anyone resigning today/triggering leadership contest will be considered sub Mark Reckless scum.
Demonstrating a level of stiff upper lip and constancy of @SeanT dimensions
I’m a patriot.
This deal stops the disaster of no deal and also allows to rejoin quite easily.
I agree, it certainly makes Rejoin a possibility, but this Deal is a fissile one that cannot last. It will end in either Rejoin or WTO and most likely the end of the Union.
It could be improved by FOM, the only one of the 4 freedoms applying to ordinary citizens rather than capital, but as I am rich enough to retire to Europe that isn't the biggest problem for me personally.
My main reason for supporting the deal is that acccepting it means staying in is far less likely.
Rejoin won’t have the oomph to overcome the direction of travel.
Scottish independence would, and rejoin would be an outcome of the UK divorce.
Scottish independence is far less likely with a Deal, Yes have only got over 50% in any recent poll in Scotland with No Deal
Because every single talking head in the media is opposed to the deal - but people on the Telly generally don't have regular jobs getting orders for their company in the general economy. I'm surprised it is as high as 28%, it's a segment completely unrepresented on the airwaves.
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
Maybe reserve some of that fury for May, with whom so much of the blame lies?
Indeed, she has said "You can eat my shit sandwiches - or you can starve."
We could have had shit sandwiches a year ago. The lack of progress - underpinned by an utter lack of ambition - is what boils my piss. And what will make me apoplectic will be when Olly Robbin gets a gong for his services in delivering Brexit.
From Brussels.
Yes, it's the running down the clock in the hope that MPs would have to accept it for lack of an alternative that annoys me. A complete waste of a year - and I think she's going to be in for a nasty shock.
Comments
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.125574963
"The outer edge of remain appears every bit as uncompromising as the outer edge of leave."
It always was, and the problem is it thinks it knows better than anyone else, so compromise is alien.
As a Leaver, I suspect this will run. It's not good and it relies on politicians meaning what they say (unlikely, I know), but there is a weariness around now, which means normal people might go with it.
Can they run away?
The new Doctor runs away like a five year old.
This deal stops the disaster of no deal and also allows to rejoin quite easily.
Good old democracy.
Personally, of recent Doctors I liked Ecclestone. He had an edge of nastiness and darkness that brought something to the character. Not excessive, but an edge of cruelty like in Connery's Bond.
Then I read it and realised that was bollocks. Apart from anything else, it isn't permanent.
There are issues over payments and customs and regulations. But actually this is infinitely preferable to no deal and arguably given the chaos breaking out in Europe preferable to remain (which isn't actually an option anyway).
In the 0.01% chance of a three way referendum on this, I'd back this deal without hesitation.
It's very odd. The Conservative and Unionist Party not knowing or caring about any part of the Union outside of England. And the same party bankrolled by big business and city gamblers not knowing or caring about the needs of big business or the city.
You'd think they'd all come down with foaming dog fever or something
I've only seen the trailers for Dr Who - I stopped watching in the mid-sixties, But you're right about her locomotion, Usain Bolt's crown is safe. But it is only a cartoon series really, so it doesn't matter.
@TheWhiteRabbit, do you want to settle now or wait for the actual vote?
Corbyn really is thick. Abstention would have been tactically astute if cowardly.
What could possibly go wrong?
It could be improved by FOM, the only one of the 4 freedoms applying to ordinary citizens rather than capital, but as I am rich enough to retire to Europe that isn't the biggest problem for me personally.
The Brexiteers like Hoey are voting against.
Blair is rallying he Remainers to vote against.
Corbyn will deliver the rest.
Though I do not think a GE would resolve much. Withdrawing A50 would be needed.
Can't be the latter as he's dismissed the idea of a referendum.
If we lose this and get no deal Brexit because Corbyn is a posturing wanker and the rest of the party are spineless cowards, Labour will not soon be forgiven.
Rejoin won’t have the oomph to overcome the direction of travel.
There are red and purple unicorns out in the forest, but this is a blue unicorn on its own. It chose not to involve the others.
Just sit back and let the Tories tear chunks out of themselves.
But no....Labour has to join in the shit-fest.
In the same way I would like a date with Margot Robbie but it ain't gonna happen as she wouldn't be interested.
The Tories will own this it is their watch.
Such people are dangerous. At least his fellow ideologues Trotsky and Lenin were however intelligent.
I have to go. Have a good morning.
Labour can do better than this deal. I am glad they are not backing it.
Thanks ERG and labour.
Shouldn't be a difficult choice for Labour, but I'm not convinced we won't see a bunch of rebels from the Umunna wing
The media is completely disconnected from economic reality and is badly underestimating the probability of a complete crashout. What the hell did people expect from the agreement. I'm furious, at everyone. This must be how the anti Trump wing of the GOP felt back in 2016 !
The PM looks like the only adult in the playground. Even Sir Kier Starmer- who I rate- was struggling to attack this on the Today Programme this morning. I'm beginning to think that the PM may even get this through the Commons and if she does, I think there will be a reappraisal of her reputation and quite possibly a lot of humble pie being eaten by her internal enemies...
Meanwhile another crisis seems to be brewing in the EU... Leaders talking about a European Army almost always means that they don't want to talk about another financial crisis
England need a wicket.
Good morning.
Presumably CU means EU rules on antique books continue for the duration?
I'm most pissed off with the ERG, traitors to a man.
They're fuckwitted ideologues.
We could have had shit sandwiches a year ago. The lack of progress - underpinned by an utter lack of ambition - is what boils my piss. And what will make me apoplectic will be when Olly Robbin gets a gong for his services in delivering Brexit.
From Brussels.
I assume this means those wanting a second referendum can put it forward and it is voted on
On the assumption it falls this then makes the vote between deal or no deal
Am I right or am I missing something
If I were Trump I would not worry too much about the midterms either, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both saw their parties do even worse than he did in their first midterms in 1994 and 2010 and both were comfortably re elected 2 years later against Bob Dole and Mitt Romney. The Democrats also have no brilliant Governor or Senator in the wings waiting to take Trump on and who can win over the liberal Democratic base either
Second, it's rather odd that although we can use any mechanism we like for a public vote, Westminster is limited by tradition and by architecture to binary divisions. Why can't MPs vote with AV? Why can't they express complex preferences? If that was on the table, then there might possibly be a better solution to the trilemma.
Going back to demand major changes isn't going to happen and only the dim-witted believe that. Jezza can legitimately push that line, but even Starmer can't keep a straight face.
Both are better than the deal.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682742/May-s-aide-hints-second-referendum-Former-Attorney-General-says-People-change-mind-not-writ-stone.html
Brexit means Brexit. I shall be taking a short posting holiday (hoorah! cry the crowd) as the signal to noise ratio is a bit low at the moment (not this esteemed board ofc, but the media & political classes having a nervous breakdown isn't particularly edifying).