So Belfast has a veto over Great Britain diverging from Northern Ireland. What does that have to do with the EU?
Nothing, but for some reason they maintain that on the one hand the Withdrawal Agreement is completely separate from an agreement on the future relationship, and that the Withdrawal Agreement has to have a legally-binding commitment as to the future relationship on this point. Search me, I don't understand their logic either.
The backstop is not part of the future relationship because by definition it will be superseded by the future relationship. It's an insurance policy and a constraint on the future relationship.
Indeed, it's a complete nonsense, and has simply held up progress on the main issues to be discussed. The sooner it's put in the bin wrapped in fudge the better.
It's completely logical and there will not be any compromise on it.
Then there's no deal and the EU (according to their own, admittedly dodgy, logic) will have to insist that the Irish Republic puts up a hard border.
Or, and massively more likely, they will back down. It's an absolutely stupid issue to crash the EU economies on, especially since doing so brings about the very eventuality they claim they are absolutely trying to avoid
The EU negotiators probably can't believe their luck it ever got any traction.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
So Belfast has a veto over Great Britain diverging from Northern Ireland. What does that have to do with the EU?
Nothing, but for some reason they maintain that on the one hand the Withdrawal Agreement is completely separate from an agreement on the future relationship, and that the Withdrawal Agreement has to have a legally-binding commitment as to the future relationship on this point. Search me, I don't understand their logic either.
The backstop is not part of the future relationship because by definition it will be superseded by the future relationship. It's an insurance policy and a constraint on the future relationship.
Indeed, it's a complete nonsense, and has simply held up progress on the main issues to be discussed. The sooner it's put in the bin wrapped in fudge the better.
It's completely logical and there will not be any compromise on it.
Then there's no deal and the EU (according to their own, admittedly dodgy, logic) will have to insist that the Irish Republic puts up a hard border.
Or, and massively more likely, they will back down. It's an absolutely stupid issue to crash the EU economies on, especially since doing so brings about the very eventuality they claim they are absolutely trying to avoid
No Deal isn't an end-state, it's just the next phase of negotiations. A phase in which both sides will be negotiating with their balls in a vice. It's just that our vice will be considerably tighter than the EU's
Labour says it won't withdraw the humble address. Government + ERG + DUP are all abstaining, so there will be a vote and will carry either unanimously or nearly so.
What happens next?
... the motion passes?
You're a hecking genius.
This is a humble address. It's directed not at the government, but at Her Majesty, requesting Her to command Her government to release the advice.
I bet HM is furious at being dragged into politics and will want this to Go Away, fast and will be letting May know in no uncertain terms of Her displeasure in allowing this state of affairs to come about.
So how does May respond?
Technically it is aimed at Her Majesty but how is it any different to any time the government does something technically in Her Majesty's name?
I don't see any reason HM needs be involved, the government exercises the powers in HM's name so they should respond to any humble address.
Labour says it won't withdraw the humble address. Government + ERG + DUP are all abstaining, so there will be a vote and will carry either unanimously or nearly so.
What happens next?
... the motion passes?
You're a hecking genius.
This is a humble address. It's directed not at the government, but at Her Majesty, requesting Her to command Her government to release the advice.
I bet HM is furious at being dragged into politics and will want this to Go Away, fast and will be letting May know in no uncertain terms of Her displeasure in allowing this state of affairs to come about.
So how does May respond?
Technically it is aimed at Her Majesty but how is it any different to any time the government does something technically in Her Majesty's name?
I don't see any reason HM needs be involved, the government exercises the powers in HM's name so they should respond to any humble address.
Yep, she's pretty much a legal fiction when it comes to the workings of the state - certainly on technical stuff such as this.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
Labour says it won't withdraw the humble address. Government + ERG + DUP are all abstaining, so there will be a vote and will carry either unanimously or nearly so.
What happens next?
... the motion passes?
You're a hecking genius.
This is a humble address. It's directed not at the government, but at Her Majesty, requesting Her to command Her government to release the advice.
I bet HM is furious at being dragged into politics and will want this to Go Away, fast and will be letting May know in no uncertain terms of Her displeasure in allowing this state of affairs to come about.
So how does May respond?
Technically it is aimed at Her Majesty but how is it any different to any time the government does something technically in Her Majesty's name?
I don't see any reason HM needs be involved, the government exercises the powers in HM's name so they should respond to any humble address.
Because this is a humble address. This is a motion directed directly at HM. Typically humble addresses are a polite formality, usually used by the House as a way to thank HM for the queen's speech and wish her a happy birthday. This, however, is not a polite formality but a rather impertinent attempt by the House to drag HM into a squabble in which she does not belong.
The palace will need to issue a swift answer to the humble address, of the kind that thanks the House for its kind invitation to violate centuries of established constitutional convention, but graciously declines to do so. But my guess is it will not do anything of the sort until May and Corbyn have agreed behind the scenes to put this foolishness to bed.
We didn't need visas to visit Spain when it was a Fascist dictatorship. Why the feck should this even be an issue for discussion now?
Complete lack of trust between the parties. If one side unilaterally allows free movement it doesn't trust the other side to reciprocate. So it has to be coordinated and agreed.
Labour says it won't withdraw the humble address. Government + ERG + DUP are all abstaining, so there will be a vote and will carry either unanimously or nearly so.
What happens next?
... the motion passes?
You're a hecking genius.
This is a humble address. It's directed not at the government, but at Her Majesty, requesting Her to command Her government to release the advice.
I bet HM is furious at being dragged into politics and will want this to Go Away, fast and will be letting May know in no uncertain terms of Her displeasure in allowing this state of affairs to come about.
So how does May respond?
Technically it is aimed at Her Majesty but how is it any different to any time the government does something technically in Her Majesty's name?
I don't see any reason HM needs be involved, the government exercises the powers in HM's name so they should respond to any humble address.
Because this is a humble address. This is a motion directed directly at HM. Typically humble addresses are a polite formality, usually used by the House as a way to thank HM for the queen's speech and wish her a happy birthday. This, however, is not a polite formality but a rather impertinent attempt by the House to drag HM into a squabble in which she does not belong.
The palace will need to issue a swift answer to the humble address, of the kind that thanks the House for its kind invitation to violate centuries of established constitutional convention, but graciously declines to do so. But my guess is it will not do anything of the sort until May and Corbyn have agreed behind the scenes to put this foolishness to bed.
Don’t worry, that centuries old convention was violated last year by Labour. This isn’t new.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Given that she doesn't even have accurate data on who supports her in her own cabinet, I'd take whatever data May thinks she has on thinking in the opposition back benches with a galactic supercluster-sized mass of the finest pink Himalayan salt.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Oh, and the Govt. has discovered that by culling badgers, new badgers move in - spreading TB.
Which they would have known if they had just listened to my farmer neighbour.
Fuckwits.
Something we agree on, and this was something I was successful on, albeit sadly temporarily. Hilary Benn, when SoS for Ag, told me that instinctively he'd like to avoid the cull, but he needed scientific argument to persuade civil servants. I talked him through exactly that point, he got it and said that was what he needed. Two weeks later he announced that the cull would not go ahead.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
As soon as the deal is out in the wild, the political landscape will completely transform as people position themselves in relation to the real choices we face.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
As soon as the deal is out in the wild, the political landscape will completely transform as people position themselves in relation to the real choices we face.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
As soon as the deal is out in the wild, the political landscape will completely transform as people position themselves in relation to the real choices we face.
Do you think the deal will pass ?
I don't think it will get that far before there's a consensus for a second referendum.
So Belfast has a veto over Great Britain diverging from Northern Ireland. What does that have to do with the EU?
Nothing, but for some reason they maintain that on the one hand the Withdrawal Agreement is completely separate from an agreement on the future relationship, and that the Withdrawal Agreement has to have a legally-binding commitment as to the future relationship on this point. Search me, I don't understand their logic either.
The backstop is not part of the future relationship because by definition it will be superseded by the future relationship. It's an insurance policy and a constraint on the future relationship.
Indeed, it's a complete nonsense, and has simply held up progress on the main issues to be discussed. The sooner it's put in the bin wrapped in fudge the better.
The problem is, the Irish and the EU representing them, I believe, making the correct call on the issue. We should prioritise the soft land border over the customs border in the Irish Sea. If the UK doesn't accept the backstop it doesn't have any commitment to the soft land border. It has reneged on the commitment a couple of times already. While holding fast might lead to a bad result from the Irish perspective, backing down essentially guarantees it.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Given that she doesn't even have accurate data on who supports her in her own cabinet, I'd take whatever data May thinks she has on thinking in the opposition back benches with a galactic supercluster-sized mass of the finest pink Himalayan salt.
The estimate I was given came from a Labour source. But actually I don't think there will be a deal that gets through the cabinet so in fact the Commons won't ever have the vote. We are heading for no deal, which ultimately will result in a second referendum.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Just had a letter from the Inland Revenue telling me that from 6th April 2019 some of the income tax paid by us in Wales will directly fund services in Wales including the NHS and Schools.
10% of all tax rates, 20 - 40 and 45 will go to the Welsh Government. All tax will be collected in the same way
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
Good. (Although I wonder how many are using it as a proxy route to give Hammond a good kicking for his Brexit position.....)
A few might be, but this really does seem to be a straightforward case of the government getting it wrong. I don't know why they haven't backed down already - they can't win this, and quite rightly so.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
As soon as the deal is out in the wild, the political landscape will completely transform as people position themselves in relation to the real choices we face.
Do you think the deal will pass ?
I don't think it will get that far before there's a consensus for a second referendum.
Gordon Browns's proposal for a royal commission needs to be implemented. Then people will sympathise more with the case for a further public vote.
However, a GE, with some parties promising a referendum might be more honourable, followed by a referendum. That would be much as happened in 1974-75. Enoch Powell said vote Labour; this time Heseltine et al might say the same.
Just reading the thread the intensity on both sides of brexit just grows as each side batters the other and each side remains entrenched
I have no idea where we go with this but I will not be drawn into endless arguing as I am fortunate to accept that no matter how much I beat myself up I will have little effect on the outcome.
No deal - deal - remain all have negatives and few positives
Not really. She's virtue-signalling in front of the European Parliament while doing absolutely nothing about it, safe in the knowledge that she's on the way out.
That said, virtue-signalling from heads of government isn't a risk-free action and she has more than enough form on that already.
If she were genuinely in favour, then she would need to argue in favour of a single country with a unified central government. Armed forces are an intrinsic feature of a sovereign state and if you create a genuinely unified European force, then you need a political structure to manage them, develop and implement defence policy, and ultimately, deploy them across the world as necessary. I very much doubt that Merkel will go there, hence its all silly verbal gesturing.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
The EU might well up the ante and make the terms even worse, theyve proved remarkably stupid to date in how to make an agreement
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Given that she doesn't even have accurate data on who supports her in her own cabinet, I'd take whatever data May thinks she has on thinking in the opposition back benches with a galactic supercluster-sized mass of the finest pink Himalayan salt.
The estimate I was given came from a Labour source. But actually I don't think there will be a deal that gets through the cabinet so in fact the Commons won't ever have the vote. We are heading for no deal, which ultimately will result in a second referendum.
Good. (Although I wonder how many are using it as a proxy route to give Hammond a good kicking for his Brexit position.....)
A few might be, but this really does seem to be a straightforward case of the government getting it wrong. I don't know why they haven't backed down already - they can't win this, and quite rightly so.
The intriguing part is that I saw Williamson's name on the list earlier. I'm assuming that is wrong, or it is another Williamson in parliament.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Given that she doesn't even have accurate data on who supports her in her own cabinet, I'd take whatever data May thinks she has on thinking in the opposition back benches with a galactic supercluster-sized mass of the finest pink Himalayan salt.
Inevitably, she can't know who will support what until we know what what is. The whips will have a much better idea within a week of any done deal being published.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
If May's deal is approved by 50% + 1, then that's what Brexit will mean.
If it isn't, then it's up to Parliament to agree a way forward, but if they can't agree a way forward, then we leave with no deal.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
If May's deal is approved by 50% + 1, then that's what Brexit will mean.
If it isn't, then it's up to Parliament to agree a way forward, but if they can't agree a way forward, then we leave with no deal.
A Brexit vote in a referendum would be a vote for the exit deal on the table and not for anything else.
Not really. She's virtue-signalling in front of the European Parliament while doing absolutely nothing about it, safe in the knowledge that she's on the way out.
That said, virtue-signalling from heads of government isn't a risk-free action and she has more than enough form on that already.
If she were genuinely in favour, then she would need to argue in favour of a single country with a unified central government. Armed forces are an intrinsic feature of a sovereign state and if you create a genuinely unified European force, then you need a political structure to manage them, develop and implement defence policy, and ultimately, deploy them across the world as necessary. I very much doubt that Merkel will go there, hence its all silly verbal gesturing.
Up to you of course David , but these ideas have a tendancy to gain their own momentum. The one consistent thing of my 40 odd years watching the EU is brits telling me the EU doesnt mean what it has explicitly stated and then looking surprised when it does what it said.
Much of our unhappy relationship with the EU stems from that simple process.
Good. (Although I wonder how many are using it as a proxy route to give Hammond a good kicking for his Brexit position.....)
A few might be, but this really does seem to be a straightforward case of the government getting it wrong. I don't know why they haven't backed down already - they can't win this, and quite rightly so.
The intriguing part is that I saw Williamson's name on the list earlier. I'm assuming that is wrong, or it is another Williamson in parliament.
Well there is Gavin and Chris for a start. Who share little else in common.
Not really. She's virtue-signalling in front of the European Parliament while doing absolutely nothing about it, safe in the knowledge that she's on the way out.
That said, virtue-signalling from heads of government isn't a risk-free action and she has more than enough form on that already.
If she were genuinely in favour, then she would need to argue in favour of a single country with a unified central government. Armed forces are an intrinsic feature of a sovereign state and if you create a genuinely unified European force, then you need a political structure to manage them, develop and implement defence policy, and ultimately, deploy them across the world as necessary. I very much doubt that Merkel will go there, hence its all silly verbal gesturing.
Up to you of course David , but these ideas have a tendancy to gain their own momentum. The one consistent thing of my 40 odd years watching the EU is brits telling me the EU doesnt mean what it has explicitly stated and then looking surprised when it does what it said.
Much of our unhappy relationship with the EU stems from that simple process.
We are the EU. The problem is the self-othering of those who have been in denial for 40 years.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
If May's deal is approved by 50% + 1, then that's what Brexit will mean.
If it isn't, then it's up to Parliament to agree a way forward, but if they can't agree a way forward, then we leave with no deal.
A Brexit vote in a referendum would be a vote for the exit deal on the table and not for anything else.
I agree. But, if the vote were lost, there would be very little time to come up with an alternative.
Good. (Although I wonder how many are using it as a proxy route to give Hammond a good kicking for his Brexit position.....)
A few might be, but this really does seem to be a straightforward case of the government getting it wrong. I don't know why they haven't backed down already - they can't win this, and quite rightly so.
The intriguing part is that I saw Williamson's name on the list earlier. I'm assuming that is wrong, or it is another Williamson in parliament.
Well there is Gavin and Chris for a start. Who share little else in common.
Not really. She's virtue-signalling in front of the European Parliament while doing absolutely nothing about it, safe in the knowledge that she's on the way out.
That said, virtue-signalling from heads of government isn't a risk-free action and she has more than enough form on that already.
If she were genuinely in favour, then she would need to argue in favour of a single country with a unified central government. Armed forces are an intrinsic feature of a sovereign state and if you create a genuinely unified European force, then you need a political structure to manage them, develop and implement defence policy, and ultimately, deploy them across the world as necessary. I very much doubt that Merkel will go there, hence its all silly verbal gesturing.
Up to you of course David , but these ideas have a tendancy to gain their own momentum. The one consistent thing of my 40 odd years watching the EU is brits telling me the EU doesnt mean what it has explicitly stated and then looking surprised when it does what it said.
Much of our unhappy relationship with the EU stems from that simple process.
We are the EU. The problem is the self-othering of those who have been in denial for 40 years.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
If May's deal is approved by 50% + 1, then that's what Brexit will mean.
If it isn't, then it's up to Parliament to agree a way forward, but if they can't agree a way forward, then we leave with no deal.
A Brexit vote in a referendum would be a vote for the exit deal on the table and not for anything else.
Not really. It would have to be all options to be fair
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
If May's deal is approved by 50% + 1, then that's what Brexit will mean.
If it isn't, then it's up to Parliament to agree a way forward, but if they can't agree a way forward, then we leave with no deal.
A Brexit vote in a referendum would be a vote for the exit deal on the table and not for anything else.
Not really. It would have to be all options to be fair
That's just it. There won't be any other options. Once an exit deal has been negotiated, that will be what Brexit means. 'No deal' is a risk if the process concludes without a deal, but it's not a viable option.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
The EU might well up the ante and make the terms even worse, theyve proved remarkably stupid to date in how to make an agreement
Remarkably stupid? I don't think so, the EU had three main objectives in the Brexit process;
To maintain the unity of the 27; To ensure that the UKs position outside the EU was less favourable that its position inside it; To keep the UK as close as possible to EU rules on markets, product standards etc etc.
All of these objectives have been achieved.
The UK's objective appears to have been to ask BMW to call up Merkel and insist on her giving us a unicorn each. Amazingly this has not worked very well.
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
If May's deal is approved by 50% + 1, then that's what Brexit will mean.
If it isn't, then it's up to Parliament to agree a way forward, but if they can't agree a way forward, then we leave with no deal.
A Brexit vote in a referendum would be a vote for the exit deal on the table and not for anything else.
Not really. It would have to be all options to be fair
That's just it. There won't be any other options. Once an exit deal has been negotiated, that will be what Brexit means. 'No deal' is a risk if the process concludes without a deal, but it's not a viable option.
No deal is as much an option as remain though it may not suit your agenda
Just imagine the reaction on twitter if, with May's Gov't completely on the ropes, enough Labour MPs back a deal to dig them out the hole they're in xD !
I'm told that the number of Labour MPs who might suppprt a May deal is estimated in the PLP to be about 12. If that is right the government has to reduce the ERG rebels to a small handful, particularly if the DUP don't back the deal.
Are Grieve and Soubry onboard with the deal ?
The mood inside the PCP for another referendum is growing.
Those two prefer that to no deal.
That should eliminate trhe Conservatives then
Sadly so does No Deal.
Nah no deal is simply economic with scare mongering 2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
Not to mention that a second referendum could well result in no deal.
How can it? If there is an exit deal, that's what Brexit will mean.
The EU might well up the ante and make the terms even worse, theyve proved remarkably stupid to date in how to make an agreement
Remarkably stupid? I don't think so, the EU had three main objectives in the Brexit process;
To maintain the unity of the 27; To ensure that the UKs position outside the EU was less favourable that its position inside it; To keep the UK as close as possible to EU rules on markets, product standards etc etc.
All of these objectives have been achieved.
The UK's objective appears to have been to ask BMW to call up Merkel and insist on her giving us a unicorn each. Amazingly this has not worked very well.
The very essence of a deal is both sides accept it. A deal will not hold if they dont.
You are confusing negotiation tactics on which the EU has outplayed the UK with the final outcome. A one sided deal never sticks.
Not really. She's virtue-signalling in front of the European Parliament while doing absolutely nothing about it, safe in the knowledge that she's on the way out.
That said, virtue-signalling from heads of government isn't a risk-free action and she has more than enough form on that already.
If she were genuinely in favour, then she would need to argue in favour of a single country with a unified central government. Armed forces are an intrinsic feature of a sovereign state and if you create a genuinely unified European force, then you need a political structure to manage them, develop and implement defence policy, and ultimately, deploy them across the world as necessary. I very much doubt that Merkel will go there, hence its all silly verbal gesturing.
Up to you of course David , but these ideas have a tendancy to gain their own momentum. The one consistent thing of my 40 odd years watching the EU is brits telling me the EU doesnt mean what it has explicitly stated and then looking surprised when it does what it said.
Much of our unhappy relationship with the EU stems from that simple process.
Sure, and that's why I think she's unwise to talk like this. But she's been Chancellor for 13 years and you have to ask why she's saying this now when she's already in lame-duck territory.
Just had a letter from the Inland Revenue telling me that from 6th April 2019 some of the income tax paid by us in Wales will directly fund services in Wales including the NHS and Schools.
10% of all tax rates, 20 - 40 and 45 will go to the Welsh Government. All tax will be collected in the same way
No more Tory cuts then
G , I think you mean budget cuts and Wales will need to raise taxes to handle. We already have that luxury. in Scotland.
Comments
I don't see any reason HM needs be involved, the government exercises the powers in HM's name so they should respond to any humble address.
Due to the retirement of Lord Northbourne there is a vacancy in the crossbenchers.
There are 11 candidates, including the new Lord Carrington, and 31 electors.
As usual the election system is the alternative vote system.
CVs for the candidates can be found:
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-information-office/2018/Arrangements-by-election-12-11-18.pdf
There will be another by-election soon, this time for a Conservative, due to the recent death of Lord Skelmersdale.
Life is difficult not just for the opposition
The palace will need to issue a swift answer to the humble address, of the kind that thanks the House for its kind invitation to violate centuries of established constitutional convention, but graciously declines to do so. But my guess is it will not do anything of the sort until May and Corbyn have agreed behind the scenes to put this foolishness to bed.
Ooh, I loves me some control I do.
Merkel comes out for an EU Armey
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article183784098/Rede-vor-EU-Parlament-Merkel-plaediert-fuer-europaeische-Armee-Buhrufe-und-Applaus.html
Those two prefer that to no deal.
Notwithstanding that they are being heavy handed.
10% of all tax rates, 20 - 40 and 45 will go to the Welsh Government. All tax will be collected in the same way
No more Tory cuts then
2nd referendum is economic and political with endless we wuz robbed
I cant see how the Tories can continue of that basis
However, a GE, with some parties promising a referendum might be more honourable, followed by a referendum. That would be much as happened in 1974-75. Enoch Powell said vote Labour; this time Heseltine et al might say the same.
I have no idea where we go with this but I will not be drawn into endless arguing as I am fortunate to accept that no matter how much I beat myself up I will have little effect on the outcome.
No deal - deal - remain all have negatives and few positives
That said, virtue-signalling from heads of government isn't a risk-free action and she has more than enough form on that already.
If she were genuinely in favour, then she would need to argue in favour of a single country with a unified central government. Armed forces are an intrinsic feature of a sovereign state and if you create a genuinely unified European force, then you need a political structure to manage them, develop and implement defence policy, and ultimately, deploy them across the world as necessary. I very much doubt that Merkel will go there, hence its all silly verbal gesturing.
If it isn't, then it's up to Parliament to agree a way forward, but if they can't agree a way forward, then we leave with no deal.
Much of our unhappy relationship with the EU stems from that simple process.
Brexit voters agree that no referendum on the terms of leaving the EU is necessary because they would win and the last one was in no way a fluke.
https://tinyurl.com/LeaversAreTraitors
next youll be telling me about"influence"
To maintain the unity of the 27;
To ensure that the UKs position outside the EU was less favourable that its position inside it;
To keep the UK as close as possible to EU rules on markets, product standards etc etc.
All of these objectives have been achieved.
The UK's objective appears to have been to ask BMW to call up Merkel and insist on her giving us a unicorn each. Amazingly this has not worked very well.
NEW THREAD
"Centrist", she's a former Green party member.
You are confusing negotiation tactics on which the EU has outplayed the UK with the final outcome. A one sided deal never sticks.
in Scotland.