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  • GIN1138 said:

    Has Theresa May resigned yet? :D

    No
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,301
    Smart question from Pat McFadden I think.
    Highlighting the divisions within the Tory party very effectively.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504

    TM put down Vince. He is so hopeless

    Fair point; she hasn’t added anything!
    It’s the way he did it though.
  • TM rejects Canada ++
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    .
    The Progressive Unionist Party held their conference at the weekend, these are the guys who actually did shoot you an extraxt from their winding up

    " We want to make the case again for Northern Ireland. The DUP have come to represent Northern Ireland to those outside, a party whose political lexicon mostly consists of the word NO. Yet this misrepresents the people of Northern Ireland, a people who are friendly, warm industrious, resilient, genuine, resourceful, welcoming, humorous, gifted, and creative, if at times also fractious and obdurate. We want to create a country of which people can be proud, where everyone plays their part and makes their contribution, Gael and Planter, Unionist and Nationalist and newcomer."

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    rkrkrk said:

    Smart question from Pat McFadden I think.
    Highlighting the divisions within the Tory party very effectively.

    Another talent wasting on back benches thanks to the Momentum takeover.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    The people had a vote AND THEY BLEW IT xD
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    Well????????

    How did it go?
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    Nigel Dodds heard in near silence - clearly worth paying attention to.

    He asked clearly whether May would confirm that NI would not be left in the CU OR the SM, and May did not answer him. She talked about how NI would be able to trade with both the EU and UK - pretty much confirmation that she intends to agree to a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This is Barnier's language.

    This is all just theatre. She is going to come back with the UK backstop that is 'temporary' but that the UK has no ability to exit without activating the NI backstop.

    I think the DUP, the ERG and the Leavers in the Cabinet are listening to this and realising that May is never going get it and will have to be replaced. It has been a hapless performance.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    May steering a course between the Soubryites, Moggites and DUP as usual.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TOPPING said:

    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    Well????????

    How did it go?
    As one of my friends wisely says, never reveal the secrets of the bedchamber.
  • Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    Yup.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    To govern is to choose.

    Or it was, anyway.

    Aurelian wouldn't've dicked about by this. And he faced far worse problems. But then, he was a fantastic leader.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    Well????????

    How did it go?
    As one of my friends wisely says, never reveal the secrets of the bedchamber.
    Very wise.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    To govern is to choose.

    Or it was, anyway.

    Aurelian wouldn't've dicked about by this. And he faced far worse problems. But then, he was a fantastic leader.

    He had a bloody difficult woman to deal with didn't he? If he was the one that I am thinking of that destroyed Palmyra.
  • Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    It seems that she is attempting to keep the DUP on board but also playing for time, though she has rejected Canada ++

    Not sure how this pans out. Maybe just keep kicking the can down the road to reduce the time to putting a deal to the HOC maybe as late as the end of December
  • TOPPING said:

    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    Well????????

    How did it go?
    As one of my friends wisely says, never reveal the secrets of the bedchamber.
    You want to avoid a modern day Bedchamber crisis?
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    The message I got from TM was that there is a deal to be done with the EU (note praise for progress etc.) but only if her party allows her to do it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Recidivist, indeed. He took Zenobia to Rome. In golden chains. And reconquered the breakaway Gallic Empire too.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    TM rejects Canada ++

    But what about Canada +++ ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,412
    Finally Dan Hodges posts a worthwhile observation https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1051854776131117056
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    May being very careful with her words about NI but to me she just confirmed that NI would be party to any future UK trade deals. How does this work?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:

    Maybe tonight will be when the magic 48 is reached? :D
  • Scott_P said:
    ... so he'd vote for hard Brexit... ?
  • Nigel Dodds heard in near silence - clearly worth paying attention to.

    He asked clearly whether May would confirm that NI would not be left in the CU OR the SM, and May did not answer him. She talked about how NI would be able to trade with both the EU and UK - pretty much confirmation that she intends to agree to a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This is Barnier's language.

    This is all just theatre. She is going to come back with the UK backstop that is 'temporary' but that the UK has no ability to exit without activating the NI backstop.

    I think the DUP, the ERG and the Leavers in the Cabinet are listening to this and realising that May is never going get it and will have to be replaced. It has been a hapless performance.
    They do not seem to have the numbers and of course a wrong move by them will see TM in office for a further 12 months. Also the DUP do not control the conservative mps
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    oh really,

    when Adonis leaves the Lods he must be trated with derision and contempt all the time
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    TOPPING said:

    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    Well????????

    How did it go?
    As one of my friends wisely says, never reveal the secrets of the bedchamber.
    Sounds a little different from appraisals I've taken part in.

    What is your profession.... ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    eek said:

    Finally Dan Hodges posts a worthwhile observation https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1051854776131117056

    Actually Boris did and so did Mr Dodds on behalf of the DUP. Both of which are pretty significant given the arithmetic in the House. So Dan's comment is to his usual standard.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    May being very careful with her words about NI but to me she just confirmed that NI would be party to any future UK trade deals. How does this work?

    Not what she said. She is saying that IF Chequers is agreed, the there would be no backstop and therefore NI could be part of the trade deals that would be done.

    The problem is that Chequers is a fantasy and in any event not legally binding.

    She did not say that in all circumstances NI could be included in UK trade deals, because it is not true.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    What is 'this'?

    There is no 'this'. No deal has been made and none looks remotely likely.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Recidivist, indeed. He took Zenobia to Rome. In golden chains. And reconquered the breakaway Gallic Empire too.

    Well that would have created a really big single market and led to a great deal of prosperity. No wonder he splashed out on the chain material.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    that man is such a drip how did he ever get to be AG ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Nigel Dodds heard in near silence - clearly worth paying attention to.

    He asked clearly whether May would confirm that NI would not be left in the CU OR the SM, and May did not answer him. She talked about how NI would be able to trade with both the EU and UK - pretty much confirmation that she intends to agree to a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This is Barnier's language.

    This is all just theatre. She is going to come back with the UK backstop that is 'temporary' but that the UK has no ability to exit without activating the NI backstop.

    I think the DUP, the ERG and the Leavers in the Cabinet are listening to this and realising that May is never going get it and will have to be replaced. It has been a hapless performance.
    It seems equally likely that she wants the UK as a whole in the CU or SM/CU. Which would likewise ensure frictionless trade between the UK's component parts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    If Trump ever comes on PB offering a bet, turn him down.

    Trump denies offering $1 million for Warren DNA test, even though he did
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/411414-trump-denies-offering-1-million-for-warren-dna-test-even-though-he
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Pulpstar said:

    Anna Soubry not looking very happy.

    I think that is her default position
    Especially b4 wine o'clock.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    Nigelb said:

    If Trump ever comes on PB offering a bet, turn him down.

    Trump denies offering $1 million for Warren DNA test, even though he did
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/411414-trump-denies-offering-1-million-for-warren-dna-test-even-though-he

    Now that's REAL gaslighting.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Finally Dan Hodges posts a worthwhile observation https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1051854776131117056

    Actually Boris did and so did Mr Dodds on behalf of the DUP. Both of which are pretty significant given the arithmetic in the House. So Dan's comment is to his usual standard.
    Sir Nicholas Soames just did as well......
  • that man is such a drip how did he ever get to be AG ?
    Lots and lots of intellectual self confidence.
  • Scott_P said:
    Its gone beyond parody. We know all of the things she is against. All she is for is "Brexit", and when the list of viable options is read out she says "no" to all of them.

    Conclusions:
    1. De Facto if not yet De Jure the policy of HMG is No Deal
    2. She has accepted that all viable options will be voted down/rejected/have her sacked. Thefore the only option is to kick the can down the road until it gets swept over the waterfall
    3. She hopes to smear all of her opponents (pretty much everyone) with shit so that when she joins Andrea Jenkyns with "you're fucked, but you're BRITISH and that means you'll starve with patriotic fervour. Vote Conservative" they won't sack her

    We CANNOT keep prevaricating any longer yet "no" is her answer to all scenarios. So her own personal survival is all that matters - perhaps it is similar to Brown where Godly toil will ultimately be rewarded.

    Electorally there is no benefit to be had here. Its a small minority who when project fear turns into reality will be happy. The rest will be shocked, then angry, then furious. As others have pointed out its votes on both sides that decide elections, and you can only see the Tory vote haemmorage whether or not she now blinks and capitulates or patriotically hurls us over the edge. Labour will "win" the next election, but what ruins will they take charge of?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    Nigelb said:

    If Trump ever comes on PB offering a bet, turn him down.

    Trump denies offering $1 million for Warren DNA test, even though he did
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/411414-trump-denies-offering-1-million-for-warren-dna-test-even-though-he

    Now that's REAL gaslighting.
    Well if he were to light his own farts, it would represent an improvement in the standard of his discourse, I suppose.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Nigel Dodds heard in near silence - clearly worth paying attention to.

    He asked clearly whether May would confirm that NI would not be left in the CU OR the SM, and May did not answer him. She talked about how NI would be able to trade with both the EU and UK - pretty much confirmation that she intends to agree to a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This is Barnier's language.

    This is all just theatre. She is going to come back with the UK backstop that is 'temporary' but that the UK has no ability to exit without activating the NI backstop.

    I think the DUP, the ERG and the Leavers in the Cabinet are listening to this and realising that May is never going get it and will have to be replaced. It has been a hapless performance.
    They do not seem to have the numbers and of course a wrong move by them will see TM in office for a further 12 months. Also the DUP do not control the conservative mps
    Or has the mood changed?

    From this level of support in the House, and the alleged level of support from the Cabinet, it may have got to the point where both wings of the Brexit debate see that she is untenable. If the letters go in I can now see more MPs on the remain side voting No Confidence. I can no longer see many Con MPs who would give her confidence.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    He's never seen anything like it because he's never been elected to the Commons.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    Or alternatively it encourages the different sides in parliament to be more cognisant of the stalemate. So far the argument that's been put most consistently by MPs has been about the need to go back to the people.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    that man is such a drip how did he ever get to be AG ?
    Lots and lots of intellectual self confidence.
    misplaced
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504

    that man is such a drip how did he ever get to be AG ?
    Lots and lots of intellectual self confidence.
    There you go, what lawyers have in abundance, justified or not!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    He's never seen anything like it because he's never been elected to the Commons.
    :lol:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Like it was ever in doubt.....

    The guy has spent the last year or so on the EU's side of the negotiating table.
  • TM said that if the negotiations result in no deal she will bring it back to the house and it is for the house to decide what to do

    Opening for a second referendum ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    May being very careful with her words about NI but to me she just confirmed that NI would be party to any future UK trade deals. How does this work?

    Not what she said. She is saying that IF Chequers is agreed, the there would be no backstop and therefore NI could be part of the trade deals that would be done.

    The problem is that Chequers is a fantasy and in any event not legally binding.

    She did not say that in all circumstances NI could be included in UK trade deals, because it is not true.
    No I think she did say that in reply to Dodds. Whether it is true is another matter.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    They may feel sorry for her and they no doubt genuinely want to avoid No Deal, but what can they actually do?
    They can't allow cherry picking and they can't sell Eire out regarding the border.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    The message I got from TM was that there is a deal to be done with the EU (note praise for progress etc.) but only if her party allows her to do it.

    ....and if it is a shit deal for the UK.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    maybe they shouldnt have made it an issue then
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    The pity vote? Well it's worth a try.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    philiph said:

    Nigel Dodds heard in near silence - clearly worth paying attention to.

    He asked clearly whether May would confirm that NI would not be left in the CU OR the SM, and May did not answer him. She talked about how NI would be able to trade with both the EU and UK - pretty much confirmation that she intends to agree to a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This is Barnier's language.

    This is all just theatre. She is going to come back with the UK backstop that is 'temporary' but that the UK has no ability to exit without activating the NI backstop.

    I think the DUP, the ERG and the Leavers in the Cabinet are listening to this and realising that May is never going get it and will have to be replaced. It has been a hapless performance.
    They do not seem to have the numbers and of course a wrong move by them will see TM in office for a further 12 months. Also the DUP do not control the conservative mps
    Or has the mood changed?

    it may have got to the point where both wings of the Brexit debate see that she is untenable.

    Its not May that is untenable, its the Conservative party that's untenable.

  • Macron to speak to TM later today

    Thought everything had to go through Barnier
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JonathanD said:

    Its not May that is untenable, its the Conservative party that's untenable.

    it's Brexit that is untenable
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    He's never seen anything like it because he's never been elected to the Commons.
    He did make it onto Oxford City Council for 4 years....as a Lib Dem.....and that's it.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Am I right in thinking that I have missed nothing of any interest?

    Other than our political class making embarrassing fools of themselves. Again. No.

    PS I hope you got a humungous bonus for your rain-making suggestion that McDonnell nationalise pensions. The amount of work that will create must have made your appraisers very happy indeed!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    They may feel sorry for her and they no doubt genuinely want to avoid No Deal, but what can they actually do?
    They can't allow cherry picking and they can't sell Eire out regarding the border.
    the border is a made up issue, they can kill it any time they want
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    philiph said:

    Nigel Dodds heard in near silence - clearly worth paying attention to.

    He asked clearly whether May would confirm that NI would not be left in the CU OR the SM, and May did not answer him. She talked about how NI would be able to trade with both the EU and UK - pretty much confirmation that she intends to agree to a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This is Barnier's language.

    This is all just theatre. She is going to come back with the UK backstop that is 'temporary' but that the UK has no ability to exit without activating the NI backstop.

    I think the DUP, the ERG and the Leavers in the Cabinet are listening to this and realising that May is never going get it and will have to be replaced. It has been a hapless performance.
    They do not seem to have the numbers and of course a wrong move by them will see TM in office for a further 12 months. Also the DUP do not control the conservative mps
    Or has the mood changed?

    From this level of support in the House, and the alleged level of support from the Cabinet, it may have got to the point where both wings of the Brexit debate see that she is untenable. If the letters go in I can now see more MPs on the remain side voting No Confidence. I can no longer see many Con MPs who would give her confidence.
    'No confidence' in the government?
    That's of course different from a challenge to Mrs May for leadership of the Tory Party.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    maybe they shouldnt have made it an issue then
    It is an issue because there will be a land border between the EU and a third country, and that border will be in NI.

    The EU haven't 'made' it an issue. It is an issue. It always was.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    the border is a made up issue, they can kill it any time they want

    Killing at the border is what we all wish to avoid
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    Lab don't need new voters. They just need enough conservatives ****ed off by this shower to sit on their hands.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    They may feel sorry for her and they no doubt genuinely want to avoid No Deal, but what can they actually do?
    They can't allow cherry picking and they can't sell Eire out regarding the border.
    the border is a made up issue, they can kill it any time they want
    Tell that to the DUP.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    TM said that if the negotiations result in no deal she will bring it back to the house and it is for the house to decide what to do

    Opening for a second referendum ?

    Actually that was a surprising comment and I think you are right to highlight it. No idea what she meant but she didn't need to say it like that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    Scott_P said:

    JonathanD said:

    Its not May that is untenable, its the Conservative party that's untenable.

    it's Brexit that is untenable
    Yes, May has made herself into the embodiment of the Brexit mandate. The more blows she takes, the weaker the mandate becomes.
  • Macron to speak to TM later today

    Thought everything had to go through Barnier

    He's going to point to the pearl handled revolver and ask why she hasn't used it already
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    maybe they shouldnt have made it an issue then
    It is an issue because there will be a land border between the EU and a third country, and that border will be in NI.

    The EU haven't 'made' it an issue. It is an issue. It always was.
    no there were enough ways to make the border go away so that it didnt stall a deal. The EU chose to make this a negotiating point and now are increasingly hosited on their own petard. They charged in to the Ulster cul de sac and now are surprised theres no way forward.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Macron to speak to TM later today

    Thought everything had to go through Barnier

    He just wants to talk to someone less popular than he is. "It could be worse, Mme. May. I could be vous!".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    Agreed. This is a part of the negotiation and the Commons has played its part.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    Guardian suggests that if the Commons voted for a second referendum the Government would consider it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Let's hope it is feeling that way to Brussels too....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    They may feel sorry for her and they no doubt genuinely want to avoid No Deal, but what can they actually do?
    They can't allow cherry picking and they can't sell Eire out regarding the border.
    the border is a made up issue, they can kill it any time they want
    Tell that to the DUP.
    the DUP are quite contentedly sitting like a fat spider pulling the strings. The stupidity of Dublin London and Brussels has put them there and they will have their pound of flesh
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    Macron to speak to TM later today

    Thought everything had to go through Barnier

    Is macron 'the cavalry'?
    Riding to the rescue with an offer to change EU policy - limits on migration all round?
    Although maybe we could already:
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/06/free-movement-isnt-free-truth-about-eu-immigration
  • This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    They may feel sorry for her and they no doubt genuinely want to avoid No Deal, but what can they actually do?
    They can't allow cherry picking and they can't sell Eire out regarding the border.
    the border is a made up issue, they can kill it any time they want

    This statement may actually have been a smart move by Theresa May. By demonstrating publicly the pressures that she is under from all sides, those on the EU side will gain a renewed appreciation of her limited room for manoeuvre. If it encourages more flexibility from them, that would have been an effective use of time.

    They may feel sorry for her and they no doubt genuinely want to avoid No Deal, but what can they actually do?
    They can't allow cherry picking and they can't sell Eire out regarding the border.
    the border is a made up issue, they can kill it any time they want
    How? By allowing a hard border? By keeping a soft border and thus ignoring the fact the UK will be a third-party after Brexit? Everyone's looking for an answer here.
  • Like it was ever in doubt.....

    The guy has spent the last year or so on the EU's side of the negotiating table.
    Also Heidi Allen MP is going to oppose anything but remain.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Scott_P said:

    the border is a made up issue, they can kill it any time they want

    Killing at the border is what we all wish to avoid
    then the sensible thing was not to make it an issue

    let sleeping dogs lie
This discussion has been closed.