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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay’s big speech – the reaction

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  • sealo0sealo0 Posts: 48
    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    kle4 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Never heard of him before (well, not to recall anyway), but he has got a great voice.
    He is a top QC, earning almost £700 000 a year on top of his MP salary at the Bar
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Interesting that much of the coverage of the speech is on May's promise of an end in sight to austerity and more funds for cancer and borrowing to build homes, balanced by attacks on Corbyn's nationalisation and tax and spend plans.

    May also made clear that 'searching for a perfect Brexit could mean no Brexit' and in a slap down for the ERG she made clear No Deal would be a bad result for the UK as well as the EU
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    TM pledge directly to the Scottish Fishing Industry to rid them of the Fishery policy will have been very well received throughout the North of Scotland and her attack on Nicola Sturgeon over fishing was well made

    I remember my dear late father in law, who was himself one of Scotlands most successful skippers, berating the EU as we were about to join. The fishermen were livid

    G , it was however absolute bollox given it has been the Tories who have constantly sold the Scottish fishing industry down the swannee given it was so far north of London. The leopard will not be changing its spots, we will get the usual false promises they trot out when they need support and the fisherman will be left to rot as usual.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,857
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y__GkNPKqeQ

    You could just try youtube.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    justin124 said:

    It has all become rather vulgar really. Very difficult to imagine Thatcher doing anything like that - never mind Macmillan, Eden or Churchill. Not that Labour are any better.
    No reference to Campbell-Bannerman or Lloyd-George as if there were speaking only yesterday. You disappoint. Eden and Churchill’s days were over 60 years ago. I suspect that your 1950’s equivalent would have been comparing them unfavourably to Gladstone.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    A university Conservative society has been suspended after a photo appearing to show members sporting racist and anti-Semitic messages emerged.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cornwall-45735591

    standard Tory practice I thought
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    malcolmg said:

    A university Conservative society has been suspended after a photo appearing to show members sporting racist and anti-Semitic messages emerged.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cornwall-45735591

    standard Tory practice I thought
    I guess that comment works less well now than in the past.

    (Perhaps Labour are stealing Tory ideas?)
  • kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    He has a great bass voice, that for a singer would be a rare gift. The speech itself is mediocre, I would say as someone who sort of collects political speeches. He doesn't have anything new to say, nor is there any passion. Comes across as somewhat false, rightly or wrongly. Sincerity can be faked but it needs to be convincing. Bill Clinton was a master at it in his prime.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Why are people so surprised about May's performance today? It's her interviews and interactions with humans that usually turn into car-crashes, but she usually does decent speeches -- she's alright at standing there and sounding fluent and confident when she knows exactly what she's going to say, and when she can control the situation. Last year's speech was very much an exception.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    He has a great bass voice, that for a singer would be a rare gift. The speech itself is mediocre, I would say as someone who sort of collects political speeches. He doesn't have anything new to say, nor is there any passion. Comes across as somewhat false, rightly or wrongly. Sincerity can be faked but it needs to be convincing. Bill Clinton was a master at it in his prime.
    If you have a mediocre speech at least get someone to deliver it very well (and having the right voice helps a lot). I tend to put many of Corbyn's speeches in that bracket (I've not seen his conference one yet) - his words are generally not stellar, and he's not outstanding, but he has an authoritative delivery and apretty good voice for it too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited October 2018
    Danny565 said:

    Why are people so surprised about May's performance today? It's her interviews and interactions with humans that usually turn into car-crashes, but she usually does decent speeches -- she's alright at standing there and sounding fluent and confident when she knows exactly what she's going to say, and when she can control the situation. Last year's speech was very much an exception.

    It was a masterfully planned deliberate car crash to make today's speech look brilliant. She truly does think a mile ahead.

    But in general I'd agree she's not awful in such situations.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,726
    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Danny565 said:

    Why are people so surprised about May's performance today? It's her interviews and interactions with humans that usually turn into car-crashes, but she usually does decent speeches -- she's alright at standing there and sounding fluent and confident when she knows exactly what she's going to say, and when she can control the situation. Last year's speech was very much an exception.

    Because a lot of people who are into politics like reasoning by vague association rather than any rational process. What do I associate with "Theresa May, speech to party"? Well there's her speech last year going wrong, and there's the fact that she's under a lot of pressure from her party. Both of those are negative things, therefore the speech will probably go badly.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Whilst you can see the amusement on Bradley, Gove, Truss and Mundell's face.. Gavin Williamson has an altogether different expression. Some real devotion in the way he's looking at TM the PM.
  • malcolmg said:

    TM pledge directly to the Scottish Fishing Industry to rid them of the Fishery policy will have been very well received throughout the North of Scotland and her attack on Nicola Sturgeon over fishing was well made

    I remember my dear late father in law, who was himself one of Scotlands most successful skippers, berating the EU as we were about to join. The fishermen were livid

    G , it was however absolute bollox given it has been the Tories who have constantly sold the Scottish fishing industry down the swannee given it was so far north of London. The leopard will not be changing its spots, we will get the usual false promises they trot out when they need support and the fisherman will be left to rot as usual.
    Well there are a lot of conservative votes in the fishing industry at present. Sturgeon is keeping them in the european fishing policy
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    I get emails from him nearly every day
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,726

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    edited October 2018
    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    The whole lot of them. That's why they're there.

    (Of course I may quietly differ with the wisdom of the residents of a constituency such as Hayes. Their call.)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    Boris has no such thing. The eye he has is for any project that would give him a good headline, regardless of its practicality, utility, or cost.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    I get emails from him nearly every day
    He stopped sending me emails after my membership lapsed (I fell off the electoral roll by accident), I’d have hoped he’d have carried on sending them along with invitations to rejoin.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    That’s impressive. Remind me who to call if ever I’m in need of a QC.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    What 'good policies' has Boris developed?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    Gove? Sure. Raab? I think so.

    But Boris? What policies has he successfully formulated and implemented? Either in the Mayor's office or in the Foreign Office. Take your time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Sorry to see an awful lot of rubbish being posted on here in relation to Brexit - Alan Brooke take a bow.

    To change the subject - what do people think about ending the cap on local government borrowing to build housing? I've had grave concerns about councils getting involved in the property investment business to plug the hole in their finances. Regional governments have gone bust all over the world. Perhaps if it is well regulated?

    They're already investing millions in commercial property, desperate to earn a return on their cash deposits greater than the pennies available through the normal channels. If property turns seriously downwards, local government is already in deep shit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    That’s impressive. Remind me who to call if ever I’m in need of a QC.
    Under EU law isn't it now illegal to call anyone other than Cherie Blair?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,690

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    I get emails from him nearly every day
    I get details of phone numbers of all Conference attendees from him
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    I get emails from him nearly every day
    I get details of phone numbers of all Conference attendees from him
    Well done indeed sir.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited October 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    Close enough is good enough, as mine used to say.

    Though I do agree with you. I do actually respect that for some a sub par Brexit, in their eyes, is worth fighting against even to the risk of no Brexit at all, but they do need to know that that is one of the risks, and decide any Brexit might actually be worth it after all, as an indicator of overall direction.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    Yes, but what possible mechanism could lead to no Brexit if May is in power and she means her no deal threat?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    Did you stab him in the back? Are you now 'Great' ?.... :)
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    Gove? Sure. Raab? I think so.

    But Boris? What policies has he successfully formulated and implemented? Either in the Mayor's office or in the Foreign Office. Take your time.
    He’s quite good at promoting himself. But even that’s stalling.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    Close enough is good enough, as mine used to say.

    Though I do agree with you. I do actually respect that for some a sub par Brexit, in their eyes, is worth fighting against even to the risk of no Brexit at all, but they do need to know that that is one of the risks, and decide any Brexit might actually be worth it after all, as an indicator of overall direction.
    Whatever Brexit is agreed now, it will be constantly renegotiated and revised over the next half century. There will be times when we move closer to the EU, and times we move further away.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited October 2018
    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    They should have acted some time ago - I get that everyone knows CHequers as is is dead and has been for a long time, but if it was a red line for the ERG they should not have relied on the EU torpedoing it or counting on May to heed their calls. Get the letters in, and if that fails or it does but May is then replaced by someone of similar intentions, then the ERG can take a long hard look at themselves and decide if, after trying hard, that they must now commit to party unity, or do they decide somethings trump that and Brexit is one of them.

    For all May's faults on Brexit, of which delaying a direction was a big one, her opponents sticking to wailing and whinging rather than action is definitely one as well.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.

    Unfortunately for Brexit enthusiasts the word “velleity” exists to describe Johnson, Davis et al. Neither great nor good.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    matt said:

    justin124 said:

    It has all become rather vulgar really. Very difficult to imagine Thatcher doing anything like that - never mind Macmillan, Eden or Churchill. Not that Labour are any better.
    No reference to Campbell-Bannerman or Lloyd-George as if there were speaking only yesterday. You disappoint. Eden and Churchill’s days were over 60 years ago. I suspect that your 1950’s equivalent would have been comparing them unfavourably to Gladstone.
    I was not being party political at all - and this reliance on trivia as a backdrop is hardly new. I recall cringeing in embarrassment in the early 1990s when Kinnock kept trying to imitate a demented pop star singing 'Meet the challenge - Make the change!'. I do think the overall effect is to undermine respect for political leaders
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    Close enough is good enough, as mine used to say.

    Though I do agree with you. I do actually respect that for some a sub par Brexit, in their eyes, is worth fighting against even to the risk of no Brexit at all, but they do need to know that that is one of the risks, and decide any Brexit might actually be worth it after all, as an indicator of overall direction.
    Whatever Brexit is agreed now, it will be constantly renegotiated and revised over the next half century. There will be times when we move closer to the EU, and times we move further away.
    "If you want a vision of the future, imagine Nigel Farage stamping on a human face - forever"

    1984 George Orwell
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    Close enough is good enough, as mine used to say.

    Though I do agree with you. I do actually respect that for some a sub par Brexit, in their eyes, is worth fighting against even to the risk of no Brexit at all, but they do need to know that that is one of the risks, and decide any Brexit might actually be worth it after all, as an indicator of overall direction.
    Whatever Brexit is agreed now, it will be constantly renegotiated and revised over the next half century. There will be times when we move closer to the EU, and times we move further away.
    "If you want a vision of the future, imagine Nigel Farage stamping on a human face - forever"

    1984 George Orwell
    Truly a man ahead of his time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    matt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.

    Unfortunately for Brexit enthusiasts the word “velleity” exists to describe Johnson, Davis et al. Neither great nor good.
    A very good word indeed, I will have to remember it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    What 'good', exactly?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    edited October 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    I get emails from him nearly every day
    A Tory acquaintance once described him as a "useful oik". I don't know whether either word is accurate; it may well more be a comment on my acquaintance (and by extension Tories in general) than on Mr Lewis, for all I know.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    Is that a scenario where suddenly a referendum gets on the table? Depending on what is in it if the ERG will prevent a deal (I severely doubt there are enough Labour rebels who would counter them) and no Tories want a GE, then a possibility of Labour and the Mayite Tories backing a referendum to prevent the ERG simply blocking any potential deal is possible?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    Given the timescale, the only path to a people's vote lies through a postponement of the end March date.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
    So do we elect new MEPs in this scenario? Wanting to see the back of Farage and co. is a big plus as far as the rest of the EU Plt is concerned.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Are you doing the day shift for our Australian friend?
  • So what do you think of my first day as Theresa May's Communications Director?

    Was the ABBA intro too much?
  • PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    I'm struggling to think of one from Johnson but feel feel free to enlighten us.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    Given the timescale, the only path to a people's vote lies through a postponement of the end March date.
    Parliament can get business done in 24hrs if it has to.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    So what do you think of my first day as Theresa May's Communications Director?

    Was the ABBA intro too much?

    I was hoping for Queen's "I Want To Break Free" ....

    Perhaps next year.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    Downing people rarely go far.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    She'll let 'No deal' happen. At that point everything else is worse. The UK doesn't and should not choose to change our government based on whether we can or cannot strike a deal with other countries.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    Is that a scenario where suddenly a referendum gets on the table? Depending on what is in it if the ERG will prevent a deal (I severely doubt there are enough Labour rebels who would counter them) and no Tories want a GE, then a possibility of Labour and the Mayite Tories backing a referendum to prevent the ERG simply blocking any potential deal is possible?
    Except there will be no vote on the Deal, Chequers or anything else.

    The only vote will be on the terms for the Withdrawal Agreement and the Transition Period, with a customs union in all but name for the UK until a technical solution agreed on the Irish border to get the Transition Period and then FTA talks and further negotiations on Chequers or Canada etc kicked into the Transition.

    I think a majority of Tory and Labour MPs will vote to get the Transition even if they still disagree on the final deal, though the ERG and and maybe Corbynites and the DUP will still vote against
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    JackW said:

    So what do you think of my first day as Theresa May's Communications Director?

    Was the ABBA intro too much?

    I was hoping for Queen's "I Want To Break Free" ....

    Perhaps next year.
    "Killer Queen", "Another one bites the dust" or "I'm going slightly mad" fit the bill.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
    So do we elect new MEPs in this scenario? Wanting to see the back of Farage and co. is a big plus as far as the rest of the EU Plt is concerned.
    The composition of the next /EU parl is an interesting subject. I can see lots of Swedish Dems, Le Pen people, Austrian and Eastern Euro right wingers, Italian populists and the coup de grace AfD in quite large numbers.
  • IanB2 said:

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    Downing people rarely go far.
    Well it is a JCL college.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    Given the timescale, the only path to a people's vote lies through a postponement of the end March date.
    There will be no "people's vote" unless it is in the interests of whoever is in government. It is therefore unlikely.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
    All Boris has to do is do the equivalent of taking the ball into the corner flag in extra time. He has to look like he's negotiating really hard and - with regret - sadly fail at the last minute.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    OT Why does Netflix bother making films? Operation Finale, released today, had a good trailer and is potentially a good story, but the production is poor and an hour in I am losing interest.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
    So do we elect new MEPs in this scenario? Wanting to see the back of Farage and co. is a big plus as far as the rest of the EU Plt is concerned.
    The composition of the next /EU parl is an interesting subject. I can see lots of Swedish Dems, Le Pen people, Austrian and Eastern Euro right wingers, Italian populists and the coup de grace AfD in quite large numbers.
    The vote system in Germany makes it quite unlikely they'll get more than about 12-13% of the German representation.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited October 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    Gove? Sure. Raab? I think so.

    But Boris? What policies has he successfully formulated and implemented? Either in the Mayor's office or in the Foreign Office. Take your time.

    I agree Boris was great solely because he kept out loony left Livingstone. In reality he is a buffoon.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781

    IanB2 said:

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    Downing people rarely go far.
    Well it is a JCL college.
    Has anyone heard of J recently?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    She'll let 'No deal' happen. At that point everything else is worse. The UK doesn't and should not choose to change our government based on whether we can or cannot strike a deal with other countries.
    Respectfully, I disagree.

    If she has an agreement, and she cannot get it through the Commons, then she will resign.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    Given the timescale, the only path to a people's vote lies through a postponement of the end March date.
    There will be no "people's vote" unless it is in the interests of whoever is in government. It is therefore unlikely.
    Nevertheless it would become less 'unlikely' as soon as a postponement of the end March date is agreed.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    She'll let 'No deal' happen. At that point everything else is worse. The UK doesn't and should not choose to change our government based on whether we can or cannot strike a deal with other countries.
    Respectfully, I disagree.

    If she has an agreement, and she cannot get it through the Commons, then she will resign.
    Isn't this quite likely now?
  • So what do you think of my first day as Theresa May's Communications Director?

    Was the ABBA intro too much?

    Inspiration. It has the media playing it constantly as TM dances on the stage, upstaging Boris big time
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    She'll let 'No deal' happen. At that point everything else is worse. The UK doesn't and should not choose to change our government based on whether we can or cannot strike a deal with other countries.
    Respectfully, I disagree.

    If she has an agreement, and she cannot get it through the Commons, then she will resign.
    Oh sure, if she has an agreement. Totally agree. I was thinking more of 'no agreement'.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
    So do we elect new MEPs in this scenario? Wanting to see the back of Farage and co. is a big plus as far as the rest of the EU Plt is concerned.
    The composition of the next /EU parl is an interesting subject. I can see lots of Swedish Dems, Le Pen people, Austrian and Eastern Euro right wingers, Italian populists and the coup de grace AfD in quite large numbers.
    It would be interesting to compare the vote shares for the "populists" now to four years ago. I would expect that (using the term loosely) that the FN, the PVV and Podemos to have gone backwards, while the AfD, the Swedish Democrats and the Lega Nord would have gone forwards. However, UKIP will likely not be there at all, and they were comfortably the biggest part of the UK delegation.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    sealo0 said:

    geoffw said:

    Just seen the short warm up speech before TM by Geoffrey Cox QC the Attorney General. That was a speech and a half, quite brilliant. A bit like Richard Burton declaiming Prince Hal's Agincourt address.

    Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post it here. I saw it on temporary subscription to the Telegraph website courtesy of Waitrose.

    It's here for those who have access:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/03/move-boris-johnson-tories-have-new-brexit-champion-sir-geoffrey/

    Quite agree I was just trying to find it on BBC site but failed.

    MikeS
    https://order-order.com/2018/10/03/cox-rocks-tory-conference/
    I'm not sure about the contents of his speech, but Cox delivered it masterfully. Got the sort of voice that would get you out over the top of a trench, charging into battle.
    Yes indeed - perfect for slightly archaic language and over the top metaphors, very stirring. While I think Boris does deliver a fine speech, there was something in Cox's voice and delivery which makes it seem even better for a grandiose presentation.

    Probably a good idea to wheel him out to warm up a crowd in future, I bet.
    Shift him over to Party Chairman as soon as possible. Far more engaging than Brandon thingy
    Brandon thingy is doing a very good job of making the party more professional.
    But he isn't good at articulating things to the public. Let him continue doing backroom stuff - that is fine.

    Cox is an ideal candidate to go out and sell decisions/policies. May isn't. Hammond isn't. They need the "Minister for the Today Show" who can actually make a presentational difference.
    Yes but they also have to have the vision to formulate good policies in the first place. Boris has that, it's in his bones. Gove too, but who else?
    Gove? Sure. Raab? I think so.

    But Boris? What policies has he successfully formulated and implemented? Either in the Mayor's office or in the Foreign Office. Take your time.

    I agree Boris was great solely because he kept out loony left Livingstone. In reality he is a buffoon.
    The only time in my life that I have ever expressed any sort of preference for a Tory was in Boris's last runoff against loopy Ken, when he got my second preference.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't think anyone will miss it, it seems pretty clear.
    Don't let great be the enemy of good, as my former boss used to say.
    Close enough is good enough, as mine used to say.

    Though I do agree with you. I do actually respect that for some a sub par Brexit, in their eyes, is worth fighting against even to the risk of no Brexit at all, but they do need to know that that is one of the risks, and decide any Brexit might actually be worth it after all, as an indicator of overall direction.
    Whatever Brexit is agreed now, it will be constantly renegotiated and revised over the next half century. There will be times when we move closer to the EU, and times we move further away.
    "If you want a vision of the future, imagine Nigel Farage stamping on a human face - forever"

    1984 George Orwell
    Surely it will be Tommy Robinson putting the boot in, and Farage will merely be his apologist?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited October 2018

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    He was off my radar but that speech was a tour de force

    See Macron's credibility in free fall - 7 ministers have left his government since beginning of September
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    He was off my radar but that speech was a tour de force

    See Macron's credibility in free fall - 7 ministers have left his government since beginning of September
    It may be that he'll do just fine and get through things, but there was a time after his election and (impressive) parliamentary win, that media outlets seemed to forget that while he did win comfortably over Le Pen, he did only get 20 something percent in the first round. Not exactly odd for a candidate to get in he 20s in the first round (I believe others have gone even lower!), but it still didn't mean he was enthusiastically backed by 2/3 as in his second round result, as some of the breathless reporting made it seem.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited October 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
    So do we elect new MEPs in this scenario? Wanting to see the back of Farage and co. is a big plus as far as the rest of the EU Plt is concerned.
    The composition of the next /EU parl is an interesting subject. I can see lots of Swedish Dems, Le Pen people, Austrian and Eastern Euro right wingers, Italian populists and the coup de grace AfD in quite large numbers.
    It would be interesting to compare the vote shares for the "populists" now to four years ago. I would expect that (using the term loosely) that the FN, the PVV and Podemos to have gone backwards, while the AfD, the Swedish Democrats and the Lega Nord would have gone forwards. However, UKIP will likely not be there at all, and they were comfortably the biggest part of the UK delegation.
    Also what I also think needs thinking about is will the voters in those countries do like the UK electorate did and use the EU elections to send a message to the national Government. Are there shy AfD voters that will vote for the AfD or the other parties but would not vote for them in national elections, I think the evidence is that traditionally they do not but surprises can happen.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    He was off my radar but that speech was a tour de force

    See Macron's credibility in free fall - 7 ministers have left his government since beginning of September
    My host in France didn't rate him, mind you he wanted to see the restoration of the Kings of France xD
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Also what I also need thinking about is we the voters in those countries do like the UK electorate did and use the EU elections to send a message to the national Government. Are there shy AfD voters that will vote for the AfD or the other parties but would not vote for them in national elections, I think the evidence is that traditionally they do not but surprises can happen.

    It's hard to know. I suspect, and I could be wrong, that Brexit isn't much of a topic of debate in most EU countries. People will go out and vote on domestic issues.

    So, in Germany, I'd expect the former GDR, where there have been major flair-ups with newly arrived immigrants from the Middle East, to vote heaving for the AfD. But I suspect this will be less of an issue in the West, and you are more likely to see a Green surge there.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    So what do you think of my first day as Theresa May's Communications Director?

    Was the ABBA intro too much?

    Inspiration. It has the media playing it constantly as TM dances on the stage, upstaging Boris big time
    She also played a role organising the red devils to deliver Philip Schofield to their 30th birthday party of This Morning. Some have claimed she was stilted but I thought she was ok.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    kle4 said:

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    He was off my radar but that speech was a tour de force

    See Macron's credibility in free fall - 7 ministers have left his government since beginning of September
    It may be that he'll do just fine and get through things, but there was a time after his election and (impressive) parliamentary win, that media outlets seemed to forget that while he did win comfortably over Le Pen, he did only get 20 something percent in the first round. Not exactly odd for a candidate to get in he 20s in the first round (I believe others have gone even lower!), but it still didn't mean he was enthusiastically backed by 2/3 as in his second round result, as some of the breathless reporting made it seem.
    In fairness his new party did win a huge majority in the Parliament shortly after.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    Given the timescale, the only path to a people's vote lies through a postponement of the end March date.
    There will be no "people's vote" unless it is in the interests of whoever is in government. It is therefore unlikely.
    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    She'll let 'No deal' happen. At that point everything else is worse. The UK doesn't and should not choose to change our government based on whether we can or cannot strike a deal with other countries.
    Respectfully, I disagree.

    If she has an agreement, and she cannot get it through the Commons, then she will resign.
    Is it in May’s interests to put herself in a position where she may be forced to resign?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    PClipp said:

    matt said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    geoffw said:

    Mr Cox was only asked by the Prime Minister to deliver her warm-up speech ahead of her speech to the party faithful on Tuesday.

    Overnight he memorised a 1,000 word speech he had jotted down on an A4 piece of paper and delighted party members with a relentlessly positive vision of the life after Brexit.

    He’s at the bar. The good ones can do that easily. I suspect that he finds dealing with the intellectual failings of sone of his cabinet colleagues a struggle.
    Is Cox a contender for the leadership?
    He's a Downing College old boy, he read Law & Classics, he'll go far.
    He was off my radar but that speech was a tour de force

    See Macron's credibility in free fall - 7 ministers have left his government since beginning of September
    My host in France didn't rate him, mind you he wanted to see the restoration of the Kings of France xD
    But which royal house? ..... :smile:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    She'll let 'No deal' happen. At that point everything else is worse. The UK doesn't and should not choose to change our government based on whether we can or cannot strike a deal with other countries.
    Respectfully, I disagree.

    If she has an agreement, and she cannot get it through the Commons, then she will resign.
    I agree. It will be a confidence vote in deed, if not in name.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    So what do you think of my first day as Theresa May's Communications Director?

    Was the ABBA intro too much?

    She’ll get far more coverage, likeability and votes from that than anything she could have said in her speech.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ERG has got to get those letters in now.

    Theresa's made it quite clear what her end game is which is to abandon Brexit altogether.

    Her betrayal is complete... What have the ERG got to lose?
    Well, when Mrs May survives the No Confidence motion, then what?

    Abandon the whip?
    Just keep voting down whatever the Commons does. Default is no deal, not Remain or Chequers.
    Yes, but Mrs May will resign rather than allow No Deal to happen that way. If no PM can get a Brexit bill through Parliament, then there will be new elections in the UK. (And under that scenario, whatever Mr V says now, there would be an extension of Article 50.)
    I am not sure you are right. May resigns, it's then Boris or certain defeat. Will the Tories pick Corbyn? All the ERG gang have to do is nurse the country through to March and then bang we're out. Job done.
    OK. May resigns and BJ ends up PM. We already know what he'll do, which is ask for a six month extension to Article 50. Because it is clearly in the interests of the EU to accept this, they will - especially if (say) they get a full year's "dues" for a six month extension.
    My view is that was ill-advised by Boris.

    If it ever does get to a contest it puts a question of unpredictability around his Brexit behaviour, and few Brexiteers want to stay in the EU any longer than they have to.
This discussion has been closed.