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  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Hammond fans - can anyone name an innovative move he has made since becoming CoTE ?

  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    You should avoid confusing dullness for competence.
    I'm not.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    Is this one of those Labour borrowing good Tory borrowing bad things?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    I think he atleast has a basic level of competence (unlike quite a few of the Cabinet), but also that he's terminally awful as a politician. So, from my perspective, that's a pretty good combination, someone who increases Labour's chances at the next election but who also doesn't completely fuck-up the country while he's running it in the meantime. (I wouldn't mind Jeremy Hunt for similar reasons.)
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.

    What do you mean "we"? Australia is not involved in these negotiations.

    I must admit I find it galling that the most strident advocate of the most disastrous form of Brexit does so sitting comfortably in Australia safe in the knowledge he won't be affected in the least.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    That was one very good speech

    Back in the running?

    He has given up on being leader one of the papers said at the weekend.
    No way
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Phil Hammond live now

    Four words to conjure up a mood of eldritch dread in any heart.
    How is the Jackdaw settling in :) ?
  • Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.
    As you think Boris Johnson is an appropriate person to be PM I think we can all not just call into question your opinion of what constitutes talent, but actually piss ourselves laughing as we do so
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
    You also need to understand that those who are running the "Stop Boris" campaign are Remainers. They seem not to have a clue that they are dealing with the seriously bloody minded, those people who last time they were told "Don't do it!", did it - and voted for Brexit. Telling them "Don't vote for Boris!" can only have one outcome.
  • TGOHF said:

    Hammond fans - can anyone name an innovative move he has made since becoming CoTE ?

    I am not a fan but his speech has been well received

    Of course he was restricted by the fact he has his Autumn statement on the 29th October and it is there he needs innovative ideas
  • Danny565 said:

    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    I think he atleast has a basic level of competence (unlike quite a few of the Cabinet), but also that he's terminally awful as a politician. So, from my perspective, that's a pretty good combination, someone who increases Labour's chances at the next election but who also doesn't completely fuck-up the country while he's running it in the meantime. (I wouldn't mind Jeremy Hunt for similar reasons.)
    You want to make sure it's a Labour Chancellor who gets to completely fuck up the country.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    I think he atleast has a basic level of competence (unlike quite a few of the Cabinet), but also that he's terminally awful as a politician. So, from my perspective, that's a pretty good combination, someone who increases Labour's chances at the next election but who also doesn't completely fuck-up the country while he's running it in the meantime. (I wouldn't mind Jeremy Hunt for similar reasons.)
    You want to make sure it's a Labour Chancellor who gets to completely fuck up the country.
    Guilty as charged.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    Phil Hammond live now

    Four words to conjure up a mood of eldritch dread in any heart.
    How is the Jackdaw settling in :) ?
    A rook, I'll have you know. Bloody stupid bird. It flew down the chimney and when I rescued it from the fireplace, it then took three quarters of an hour to find one of three wide open doors to fly out of.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    In SCOTUS news the FBI investigation is limited to interviewing 4 people and as a result the FBI is ignoring the flood of statements from school and college mates of Kavanaugh saying he lied about his drinking habits.

    Nailed on to be confirmed, pile on.

    Current Betfair Sportsbook (and presumably Paddy Power though I am too lazy to check) prices are:
    Kavanaugh 1/3 to be confirmed: 9/5 not to be.
    Do you have a link to the market, can't seem to find it.
    Sorry -- Betfair Sportsbook > All Sports > Politics > US Politics > scroll down long list of States battles in alphabetical order till you get to U for US Supreme Court.

    Now 1/3 and 2/1 so those naughty traders have widened their margin.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
    You also need to understand that those who are running the "Stop Boris" campaign are Remainers. They seem not to have a clue that they are dealing with the seriously bloody minded, those people who last time they were told "Don't do it!", did it - and voted for Brexit. Telling them "Don't vote for Boris!" can only have one outcome.
    I think Boris is best waiting his time and taking over as Leader of the Opposition to PM Corbyn.

    On present polling we are heading for a Corbyn minority government and May looks entrenched for the time being, Tory MPs are only likely to risk replacing her as Tory leader and PM by electing a new candidate by coronation
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Nigelb said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

    I really don't think he does know his audience, if he thinks that is what it takes to get members' votes....
    It was designed to capture the Boris fans; the closest parallel is Johnson's "punishment beatings".
    Boris is full-fat Brexit. From a herd of Guernseys.

    Past its sell-by date, and increasingly sour.
    Some might say beyond sour, now quite cheesy......
  • HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
    You also need to understand that those who are running the "Stop Boris" campaign are Remainers. They seem not to have a clue that they are dealing with the seriously bloody minded, those people who last time they were told "Don't do it!", did it - and voted for Brexit. Telling them "Don't vote for Boris!" can only have one outcome.
    Boris has stopped himself.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond fans - can anyone name an innovative move he has made since becoming CoTE ?

    I am not a fan but his speech has been well received

    Of course he was restricted by the fact he has his Autumn statement on the 29th October and it is there he needs innovative ideas
    So that's a no then ?

    He has already had 2 budgets - both were tedious and unimaginative.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,301

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    In SCOTUS news the FBI investigation is limited to interviewing 4 people and as a result the FBI is ignoring the flood of statements from school and college mates of Kavanaugh saying he lied about his drinking habits.

    Nailed on to be confirmed, pile on.

    Current Betfair Sportsbook (and presumably Paddy Power though I am too lazy to check) prices are:
    Kavanaugh 1/3 to be confirmed: 9/5 not to be.
    Do you have a link to the market, can't seem to find it.
    Sorry -- Betfair Sportsbook > All Sports > Politics > US Politics > scroll down long list of States battles in alphabetical order till you get to U for US Supreme Court.

    Now 1/3 and 2/1 so those naughty traders have widened their margin.
    What a ridiculous indexing system.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    TGOHF said:

    Hammond fans - can anyone name an innovative move he has made since becoming CoTE ?

    He's a leader of fashion - dull is the new black.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Phil Hammond live now

    Four words to conjure up a mood of eldritch dread in any heart.
    How is the Jackdaw settling in :) ?
    A rook, I'll have you know. Bloody stupid bird. It flew down the chimney and when I rescued it from the fireplace, it then took three quarters of an hour to find one of three wide open doors to fly out of.
    I had that once. Messy.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
    You also need to understand that those who are running the "Stop Boris" campaign are Remainers. They seem not to have a clue that they are dealing with the seriously bloody minded, those people who last time they were told "Don't do it!", did it - and voted for Brexit. Telling them "Don't vote for Boris!" can only have one outcome.
    I think Boris is best waiting his time and taking over as Leader of the Opposition to PM Corbyn.

    On present polling we are heading for a Corbyn minority government and May looks entrenched for the time being, Tory MPs are only likely to risk replacing her as Tory leader and PM by electing a new candidate by coronation
    You do spout the most amazing rubbish at times
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
    Last September Tory voters top 3 to succeed May were 1 Boris 2 Mogg 3 Hammond

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4847612/amp/Tory-voters-d-better-Boris-leader.html
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
    A couple of years, not five.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    stodge said:

    That was one very good speech

    So that's Hunt, Raab and Hammond who have all made excellent speeches according to your good self.

    That likes Javid and May but has the bar been raised too high already? To be fair, after her catastrophic effort, simply standing up and reading pages from the Maidenhead phone book without coughing would be an improvement from the Prime Minister.
    They were good speeches and I am not a Hammond fan but I am so pleased he has his hands on the country's purse
    I'm pretty sure @Ydoethur could make something of that, too....
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Danny565 said:

    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    I think he atleast has a basic level of competence (unlike quite a few of the Cabinet), but also that he's terminally awful as a politician. So, from my perspective, that's a pretty good combination, someone who increases Labour's chances at the next election but who also doesn't completely fuck-up the country while he's running it in the meantime. (I wouldn't mind Jeremy Hunt for similar reasons.)
    I agree in terms of political impact, but you couldn't have said the same about Osborne. Shouldn't Corbyn be doing better given what he is lucky to be up against? Ed Miliband would have given his back teeth to be up against May and Hammond in 2015, rather than the politically effective Cameron and Osborne.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    The great Tesla stock price trampoline !

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  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Hammond fans - can anyone name an innovative move he has made since becoming CoTE ?

    I am not a fan but his speech has been well received

    Of course he was restricted by the fact he has his Autumn statement on the 29th October and it is there he needs innovative ideas
    So that's a no then ?

    He has already had 2 budgets - both were tedious and unimaginative.
    I cannot say until he announces his statement - like Brexit wait and see
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
    Last September Tory voters top 3 to succeed May were 1 Boris 2 Mogg 3 Hammond

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4847612/amp/Tory-voters-d-better-Boris-leader.html
    "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable..."
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
    You also need to understand that those who are running the "Stop Boris" campaign are Remainers. They seem not to have a clue that they are dealing with the seriously bloody minded, those people who last time they were told "Don't do it!", did it - and voted for Brexit. Telling them "Don't vote for Boris!" can only have one outcome.
    I think Boris is best waiting his time and taking over as Leader of the Opposition to PM Corbyn.

    On present polling we are heading for a Corbyn minority government and May looks entrenched for the time being, Tory MPs are only likely to risk replacing her as Tory leader and PM by electing a new candidate by coronation
    If such a calamity takes place then it will be an unique time in our country's history where the leaders of the two main parties are lacking in the principle qualities required for their posts; integrity and leadership. Oh, and they are probably both racists in their own unique ways based upon what they have been recorded as saying
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    DavidL said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

    I really don't think he does know his audience, if he thinks that is what it takes to get members' votes....
    It was designed to capture the Boris fans; the closest parallel is Johnson's "punishment beatings".
    Boris is full-fat Brexit. From a herd of Guernseys.

    Hunt's Brexit is skimmed. Probably goats milk.
    And May's is soya. Surprisingly good shelf life but tastes disgusting.
    She just doesn't know when to chuck it away.....
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2018


    You also need to understand that those who are running the "Stop Boris" campaign are Remainers....

    I don't think that's true. Quite apart from anything else, Michael Gove is a founder member of the campaign. In any case, any Leaver who thinks Boris is a reliable bet for true-blue Brexit is as naive as a woman who thinks he'll be faithful.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Danny565 said:

    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    I think he atleast has a basic level of competence (unlike quite a few of the Cabinet), but also that he's terminally awful as a politician. So, from my perspective, that's a pretty good combination, someone who increases Labour's chances at the next election but who also doesn't completely fuck-up the country while he's running it in the meantime. (I wouldn't mind Jeremy Hunt for similar reasons.)
    You want to make sure it's a Labour Chancellor who gets to completely fuck up the country.
    Roy Jenkins as outgoing Labour Chancellor bequeathed a Budget Surplus and a Balance of Payments Surplus to his Tory successor in June 1970 - a much better position than the mess inherited from Reginald Maudling in October 1964. Likewise the economy handeed over by Denis Healey in May 1979 was in better than shape than his own inheritance from Anthony Barber in March 1974.
    No Tory Government has passed on a Budget Surplus or a Balance of Payments Surplus to Labour.
  • He has lost it. It really is childish and sad to see him self destruct
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    TOPPING said:

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
    A couple of years, not five.
    "The UK has been living through the most feeble and protracted economic recovery in modern British history, leaving people on course to be almost £9,000 worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to the pre-crisis trend, according to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
    A couple of years, not five.
    "The UK has been living through the most feeble and protracted economic recovery in modern British history, leaving people on course to be almost £9,000 worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to the pre-crisis trend, according to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html
    That's as maybe but it's not what you said.

    https://ft.com/content/c8d1d150-7869-11e7-a3e8-60495fe6ca71

    paywall - google the long and winding road to economic recovery.
  • justin124 said:

    Roy Jenkins as outgoing Labour Chancellor bequeathed a Budget Surplus and a Balance of Payments Surplus to his Tory successor in June 1970 - a much better position than the mess inherited from Reginald Maudling in October 1964. Likewise the economy handeed over by Denis Healey in May 1979 was in better than shape than his own inheritance from Anthony Barber in March 1974.
    No Tory Government has passed on a Budget Surplus or a Balance of Payments Surplus to Labour.

    Let me break it to you gently: John McDonnell is no Roy Jenkins or Denis Healey.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    He has lost it. It really is childish and sad to see him self destruct
    Agree wholeheartedly with your first two contentions.

    Disagree with your final one!
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    justin124 said:

    Roy Jenkins as outgoing Labour Chancellor bequeathed a Budget Surplus and a Balance of Payments Surplus to his Tory successor in June 1970 - a much better position than the mess inherited from Reginald Maudling in October 1964. Likewise the economy handeed over by Denis Healey in May 1979 was in better than shape than his own inheritance from Anthony Barber in March 1974.
    No Tory Government has passed on a Budget Surplus or a Balance of Payments Surplus to Labour.

    Let me break it to you gently: John McDonnell is no Roy Jenkins or Denis Healey.
    :)
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    https://www.citymetric.com/politics/here-are-englands-worst-new-constituency-names-4245

    Good article by Stephen Bush on some of the worst proposed constituency names.

    I am sure that there are a few more around.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    TOPPING said:

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
    A couple of years, not five.
    "The UK has been living through the most feeble and protracted economic recovery in modern British history, leaving people on course to be almost £9,000 worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to the pre-crisis trend, according to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html
    Givn how many people have been taken out of income tax by this Govt., making them £9,000 worse off would have meant they have nothing. Literally, nothing. So I'm thinking theres a few hedge fund managers in those numbers somewhere, making that average number.

    Or it's bollocks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Austrian Ambassador says if the UK withdraws Article 50 before March 28th 2019 it can stay in the EU under current conditions

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1046666015231397889
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Roy Jenkins as outgoing Labour Chancellor bequeathed a Budget Surplus and a Balance of Payments Surplus to his Tory successor in June 1970 - a much better position than the mess inherited from Reginald Maudling in October 1964. Likewise the economy handeed over by Denis Healey in May 1979 was in better than shape than his own inheritance from Anthony Barber in March 1974.
    No Tory Government has passed on a Budget Surplus or a Balance of Payments Surplus to Labour.

    Let me break it to you gently: John McDonnell is no Roy Jenkins or Denis Healey.
    I agree with that - though some do argue he might well have some of the characteristics of Stafford Cripps - ie left wing but also rather austere. However, I thought your original comment related to the records of earlier Governments.
  • Anazina said:

    He has lost it. It really is childish and sad to see him self destruct
    Agree wholeheartedly with your first two contentions.

    Disagree with your final one!
    Yes - very good point
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    It "looked like a field of wheat" eh? To somebody who knows fuck all about agriculture it might. Setaside, perhaps - which would have been a better point to make.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Nigel Farage praises Jeremy Hunt for saying the EU is the new Soviet Union

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1046684542931816448
  • HYUFD said:

    Austrian Ambassador says if the UK withdraws Article 50 before March 28th 2019 it can stay in the EU under current conditions

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1046666015231397889

    Panic maybe
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    Thankfully the structural deficit is gone - day to day spending is now fully covered by receipts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    Austrian Ambassador says if the UK withdraws Article 50 before March 28th 2019 it can stay in the EU under current conditions

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1046666015231397889

    Panic maybe
    If No Deal yes
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633


    You also need to understand that those who are running the "Stop Boris" campaign are Remainers....

    I don't think that's true. Quite apart from anything else, Michael Gove is a founder member of the campaign. In any case, any Leaver who thinks Boris is a reliable bet for true-blue Brexit is as naive as a woman who thinks he'll be faithful.
    Remainers also seriously overestimate how popular Boris is with leavers and his impact on the referendum.



  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.

    What do you mean "we"? Australia is not involved in these negotiations.

    I accused you of being Theresa May’s jokewriter. I was wrong. You clearly work for Hammond.

    No, I work in a British company in the UK. Unlike you.

    Lots of “blood & soil” nationalism from unexpected sources today....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    HYUFD said:

    Austrian Ambassador says if the UK withdraws Article 50 before March 28th 2019 it can stay in the EU under current conditions

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1046666015231397889

    pre-Cameron terms, so fully signed up to further integration.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,301

    TOPPING said:

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
    A couple of years, not five.
    "The UK has been living through the most feeble and protracted economic recovery in modern British history, leaving people on course to be almost £9,000 worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to the pre-crisis trend, according to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html
    Givn how many people have been taken out of income tax by this Govt., making them £9,000 worse off would have meant they have nothing. Literally, nothing. So I'm thinking theres a few hedge fund managers in those numbers somewhere, making that average number.

    Or it's bollocks.
    Doesn't seem like you understand what they are saying?
    9 grand worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to pre-crisis trend, means if we hadn't had such a disastrous recovery, we'd have an extra 9 grand on average, not 9 grand less.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Austrian Ambassador says if the UK withdraws Article 50 before March 28th 2019 it can stay in the EU under current conditions

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1046666015231397889

    pre-Cameron terms, so fully signed up to further integration.
    Though outside the Euro and Schengen and with the rebate
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited October 2018

    https://www.citymetric.com/politics/here-are-englands-worst-new-constituency-names-4245

    Good article by Stephen Bush on some of the worst proposed constituency names.

    I am sure that there are a few more around.

    All constituencies should have a single name e.g. Derbyshire North East = Dronfield
    Now I know it isn't JUST Dronfield, but that is the largest settlement within the constituency, and various different people call it Derbyshire North East or North East Derbyshire. You can have two names but absolubtely not two that can be ordered differently and still make sense (Particularly directions)

    Near me Don Valley, Bolsover, Bassetlaw can remain as is; NE Derbyshire -> Dronfield, Sheffield South East -> Mosborough, Sheffield Hallam -> Hallam, Sheffield Central -> Sheffield, Sheffield Heeley -> Heeley, Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine -> Kincardine etc..
    And no AND, that gets put down as both "and" and "&" in spreadsheets.

    This would make psephological tallying a damned site easier as everyone would use the same names.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Austrian Ambassador says if the UK withdraws Article 50 before March 28th 2019 it can stay in the EU under current conditions

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1046666015231397889

    pre-Cameron terms, so fully signed up to further integration.
    So that's only 26 to go then.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    edited October 2018
    RIP Geoffrey Hayes from Rainbow......

    Edit: the one with Bungle, not Richie Blackmore....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    Givn how many people have been taken out of income tax by this Govt., making them £9,000 worse off would have meant they have nothing. Literally, nothing. So I'm thinking theres a few hedge fund managers in those numbers somewhere, making that average number.

    Or it's bollocks.

    It's more nuanced than that. I'd certainly argue in sheer salary terms Mrs Stodge and I are worse off (in real terms) now than we were in 2010.

    However, thanks to low interest rates, we have not only paid off our mortgage but borrowed to renovate our house at 0.99% and paid that off as well so it's perfectly possible to argue that in terms of paying down individual debt it's been an excellent decade for those in work.

    From 2000 to 2009 we had rising salaries but debt while from 2009 to 2018 we have had stagnant salaries but we no longer have debt.

    Yet I see levels of debt are rising - what will happen when interest rates return to more normal levels of 3-5%. It will be better for savers who have been the really big losers out of the GFC.

    It's also possible to argue borrowing at such low rates (if they are fixed) is a wise thing to do - look at the number of Councils building investment portfolios on the back of fixed low-interest loans from the PWLB or other sources.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Most interesting snippet from Hammond, for me is "There will be a Brexit dividend". Not many outside the Tory Party agree. If there isn't, what then?
    Tories going all in on Brexit.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    https://www.citymetric.com/politics/here-are-englands-worst-new-constituency-names-4245

    Good article by Stephen Bush on some of the worst proposed constituency names.

    I am sure that there are a few more around.

    "Bristol North West

    Can we stop and appreciate how strange Bristol North West’s boundaries are? They stretch way out into the seat to encompass a series of neighbouring islands, which, fair enough, people on very small islands deserve the vote too. Except, plot twist: there are no people on these islands.

    They don’t need to be franchised! This is just a bizarre choice that no other set of boundaries makes. Why do it?"

    I have always wondered about this weirdly demarcated maritime boundary around Bristol. I think it is born of English nationalist fervour, i.e. if we don't constantly remind the Welsh that these are our islands, they might claim them. There is surely no other good reason for this?

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    justin124 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    I think he atleast has a basic level of competence (unlike quite a few of the Cabinet), but also that he's terminally awful as a politician. So, from my perspective, that's a pretty good combination, someone who increases Labour's chances at the next election but who also doesn't completely fuck-up the country while he's running it in the meantime. (I wouldn't mind Jeremy Hunt for similar reasons.)
    You want to make sure it's a Labour Chancellor who gets to completely fuck up the country.
    Roy Jenkins as outgoing Labour Chancellor bequeathed a Budget Surplus and a Balance of Payments Surplus to his Tory successor in June 1970 - a much better position than the mess inherited from Reginald Maudling in October 1964. Likewise the economy handeed over by Denis Healey in May 1979 was in better than shape than his own inheritance from Anthony Barber in March 1974.
    No Tory Government has passed on a Budget Surplus or a Balance of Payments Surplus to Labour.
    The opportunity doesn't arise often, but whenever I've discussed the subject of which party is better for the economy I've never come across a single conservative who can put up a remotely credible case that their party has a better record. They have usually give up as soon as you point out that the 3 day week was under Heath. Few have heard of the Barber Boom. And as for the amateur demand management and its adverse consequences of the early Thatcher years - the delusion is extraordinary.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Anazina said:

    https://www.citymetric.com/politics/here-are-englands-worst-new-constituency-names-4245

    Good article by Stephen Bush on some of the worst proposed constituency names.

    I am sure that there are a few more around.

    "Bristol North West

    Can we stop and appreciate how strange Bristol North West’s boundaries are? They stretch way out into the seat to encompass a series of neighbouring islands, which, fair enough, people on very small islands deserve the vote too. Except, plot twist: there are no people on these islands.

    They don’t need to be franchised! This is just a bizarre choice that no other set of boundaries makes. Why do it?"

    I have always wondered about this weirdly demarcated maritime boundary around Bristol. I think it is born of English nationalist fervour, i.e. if we don't constantly remind the Welsh that these are our islands, they might claim them. There is surely no other good reason for this?

    Or Argentina....
  • RIP Geoffrey Hayes from Rainbow......

    Edit: the one with Bungle, not Richie Blackmore....

    This show had such an influence on me as a child.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgbcQIT7BMc&t=72s
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited October 2018
    Bristol North West -> Bristol Port, or actually "Briport" as Bristol Port might get put down as Port Bristol somewhere..
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Austrian Ambassador says if the UK withdraws Article 50 before March 28th 2019 it can stay in the EU under current conditions

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1046666015231397889

    pre-Cameron terms, so fully signed up to further integration.
    Though outside the Euro and Schengen and with the rebate
    And still with Farage in Brussels.

    And why the hell would they trust us not to have another go in a few years? After all, everything that goes remotely wrong in Britain will be met with "would never have happened if we'd Brexited....."
  • The one thing that alway bugged me about Rainbow.

    Bungle was naked during the day but wore clothes when he went to bed.

    What was that all about?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    The one thing that alway bugged me about Rainbow.

    Bungle was naked during the day but wore clothes when he went to bed.

    What was that all about?

    He liked to expose himself to children.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    justin124 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    I think he atleast has a basic level of competence (unlike quite a few of the Cabinet), but also that he's terminally awful as a politician. So, from my perspective, that's a pretty good combination, someone who increases Labour's chances at the next election but who also doesn't completely fuck-up the country while he's running it in the meantime. (I wouldn't mind Jeremy Hunt for similar reasons.)
    You want to make sure it's a Labour Chancellor who gets to completely fuck up the country.
    Roy Jenkins as outgoing Labour Chancellor bequeathed a Budget Surplus and a Balance of Payments Surplus to his Tory successor in June 1970 - a much better position than the mess inherited from Reginald Maudling in October 1964. Likewise the economy handeed over by Denis Healey in May 1979 was in better than shape than his own inheritance from Anthony Barber in March 1974.
    No Tory Government has passed on a Budget Surplus or a Balance of Payments Surplus to Labour.
    The opportunity doesn't arise often, but whenever I've discussed the subject of which party is better for the economy I've never come across a single conservative who can put up a remotely credible case that their party has a better record. They have usually give up as soon as you point out that the 3 day week was under Heath. Few have heard of the Barber Boom. And as for the amateur demand management and its adverse consequences of the early Thatcher years - the delusion is extraordinary.
    Some Labour chancellors have been very good, and some Conservative chancellors have been very bad.

    I'm sure we can agree that the current team are preferable to Labour's current alternative.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    The one thing that alway bugged me about Rainbow.

    Bungle was naked during the day but wore clothes when he went to bed.

    What was that all about?

    Didn’t like being bare?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    I trust everyone on here has seen Rainbow does Top Gear.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    dixiedean said:

    Most interesting snippet from Hammond, for me is "There will be a Brexit dividend". Not many outside the Tory Party agree. If there isn't, what then?
    Tories going all in on Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1046728386956206080?s=20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    rkrkrk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
    A couple of years, not five.
    "The UK has been living through the most feeble and protracted economic recovery in modern British history, leaving people on course to be almost £9,000 worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to the pre-crisis trend, according to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html
    Givn how many people have been taken out of income tax by this Govt., making them £9,000 worse off would have meant they have nothing. Literally, nothing. So I'm thinking theres a few hedge fund managers in those numbers somewhere, making that average number.

    Or it's bollocks.
    Doesn't seem like you understand what they are saying?
    9 grand worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to pre-crisis trend, means if we hadn't had such a disastrous recovery, we'd have an extra 9 grand on average, not 9 grand less.
    What they are saying is that if a country which has one of the largest banking sectors in the world recovered from the 2008 crash, the largest financial crash in history, at the same rate that it recovered from earlier recessions where the deficit didn't get close to what was achieved in 2009 and the banking sector was much smaller then the average person would have been better off by £9k a year at some point in the future depending what happens to our economy post Brexit. I am really not sure why that is thought to be useful information.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Dura_Ace said:
    He always valued humour and cracking the joke above all else; hence he made a bad FS and would make a worse PM.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sums up Boris perfectly. At least May has a plan.
    The Maybot doesn't have a FEASIBLE plan. At least Bojo realises this.
    But he has no idea about a workable alternative. There have been two years since the vote, and for all his massive intellect, he has not produced something that is any better from terms of acceptance by the GBP or the EU.

    This might well be because, unless one side or the other moves, there is nothing better than Chequers in terms of acceptance by the GBP or the EU. In fact, the GBP are so split I doubt there's anything at all, yet alone better.

    Boris waffles eloquently. But that's all it is: waffling. He's an entertainer, not a doer.
    Bojo supports a Canada-style deal, as does D. Davis. This is a realistic option. The UK cannot be half-in/half-out of the Single Market, which is why the Chequers deal is a non-runner.
    "This is a realistic option".

    I fear this is a case of "what I wish" == "realistic".

    Besides, it's two years too late. And saying "Canada-style deal" is *not* a plan. It's waffle.
    A Canada-style deal is realistic and acceptable to the EU, although there would be major economic challenges. Please see:

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-options/stairway-to-brexit-barnier-maps-out-uks-canadian-path-idUKKBN1ED23R
    Again, note the word 'style' in your comment. That is not a plan: it is vague waffling. The devil is in the details, and what is, and is not, acceptable to all the parties would depend on those details.

    In addition, it's a bit effing late.
    But it is a realistic basis for negotiation, unlike the dodo that is Chequers.

    A customs border in the Irish Sea is acceptable, provided that is the wish of the people on the island of Ireland, as per the GFA.
    "... of the people in the island if Ireland."

    I see where your plan fails ... ;)

    But again, you ignore "it's a bit effing late."

    I repeat a question to all leavers on here: can anyone point out, pre-referendum, any leaver pointed out that the Irish border might be a significant issue?
    Leavers viewed it for what it is: a technical issue that can be solved with goodwill and hard work on both sides

    We didn’t expect the EU to play politics with peace. Our bad.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,301



    The opportunity doesn't arise often, but whenever I've discussed the subject of which party is better for the economy I've never come across a single conservative who can put up a remotely credible case that their party has a better record. They have usually give up as soon as you point out that the 3 day week was under Heath. Few have heard of the Barber Boom. And as for the amateur demand management and its adverse consequences of the early Thatcher years - the delusion is extraordinary.

    Labour probably have a marginally better record.
    But between their hard-Brexit flirtations, **** business and the worst recovery in history, the Tories don't even seem to be trying any more.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.

    The austerity-addicted EU and UK have between them taken at least 5 years longer to recover from the events of 2008 than was the norm in the rest of the developed world.
    A couple of years, not five.
    "The UK has been living through the most feeble and protracted economic recovery in modern British history, leaving people on course to be almost £9,000 worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to the pre-crisis trend, according to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html
    Givn how many people have been taken out of income tax by this Govt., making them £9,000 worse off would have meant they have nothing. Literally, nothing. So I'm thinking theres a few hedge fund managers in those numbers somewhere, making that average number.

    Or it's bollocks.
    Doesn't seem like you understand what they are saying?
    9 grand worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to pre-crisis trend, means if we hadn't had such a disastrous recovery, we'd have an extra 9 grand on average, not 9 grand less.
    What they are saying is that if a country which has one of the largest banking sectors in the world recovered from the 2008 crash, the largest financial crash in history, at the same rate that it recovered from earlier recessions where the deficit didn't get close to what was achieved in 2009 and the banking sector was much smaller then the average person would have been better off by £9k a year at some point in the future depending what happens to our economy post Brexit. I am really not sure why that is thought to be useful information.
    If Western economies were growing at the pace we took for granted between 1950 and 2000, we'd be a good deal better off than we are - but that's like saying if my aunt had balls she'd be uncle.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited October 2018
    Charles said:

    Leavers viewed it for what it is: a technical issue that can be solved with goodwill and hard work on both sides

    We didn’t expect the EU to play politics with peace.

    In the words of a fellow Brexiteer; Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.

    Peace in Northern Ireland, is not and never has been "a technical issue that can be solved with goodwill and hard work on both sides"
  • NEW THREAD

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    TOPPING said:
    "The UK has been living through the most feeble and protracted economic recovery in modern British history, leaving people on course to be almost £9,000 worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to the pre-crisis trend, according to calculations by the Institute for Fiscal Studies."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html
    Givn how many people have been taken out of income tax by this Govt., making them £9,000 worse off would have meant they have nothing. Literally, nothing. So I'm thinking theres a few hedge fund managers in those numbers somewhere, making that average number.

    Or it's bollocks.
    Doesn't seem like you understand what they are saying?
    9 grand worse off on average by 2022-23 relative to pre-crisis trend, means if we hadn't had such a disastrous recovery, we'd have an extra 9 grand on average, not 9 grand less.
    What they are saying is that if a country which has one of the largest banking sectors in the world recovered from the 2008 crash, the largest financial crash in history, at the same rate that it recovered from earlier recessions where the deficit didn't get close to what was achieved in 2009 and the banking sector was much smaller then the average person would have been better off by £9k a year at some point in the future depending what happens to our economy post Brexit. I am really not sure why that is thought to be useful information.
    If Western economies were growing at the pace we took for granted between 1950 and 2000, we'd be a good deal better off than we are - but that's like saying if my aunt had balls she'd be uncle.
    And if they watched Robert's excellent demographic video they would appreciate that our economy is unlikely to grow at that pace again because in most of those years the increase of women in the workforce and immigration into the economy gave a massive boost to the supply of labour generating additional growth (if not quite so much per capita).

    We are heading down the road already trodden by Japan and Italy and there is not much we can do about it but insert a bit of realism.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2018


    The opportunity doesn't arise often, but whenever I've discussed the subject of which party is better for the economy I've never come across a single conservative who can put up a remotely credible case that their party has a better record. They have usually give up as soon as you point out that the 3 day week was under Heath. Few have heard of the Barber Boom. And as for the amateur demand management and its adverse consequences of the early Thatcher years - the delusion is extraordinary.

    Oh, C'mon - you are just being silly. The 3-day week under Heath was because the unions ran the country then, largely thanks to Harold Wilson bottling it when Barbara Castle (of all people!) tried to so something about it with In Place of Strife. Yes it is true that Heath failed to grasp the nettle, but you can hardly to point to Labour as having done better on that - the strikes were as bad or even worse under Callaghan. The Barber boom was part of that same picture. And you seem to have forgotten that the mismanagement under Callaghan was so bad that control of the economy had to be handed over to the IMF.

    As for Thatcher, just look at the contrast between the utter mess she inherited - the sick man of Europe, universally considered to be condemned to indefinite decline - and the booming economy, universally regarded as one of the strongest in Europe, which was her legacy.

    More recently, compare and contrast the disaster of the Brown government with the sound management of Osborne. Once again, it required a Conservative Chancellor to rescue the country from the abyss. Darling, let us never forget, was borrowing one pound for every three raised in tax - a humongous failure by any standard.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Liam Fox on the news, a prime example of a constipated a**e... Still coming out with the "the EU have to negotiate with us" BS, while everyone else now is realising, that "oh no they won't "
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    OchEye said:

    Liam Fox on the news, a prime example of a constipated a**e... Still coming out with the "the EU have to negotiate with us" BS, while everyone else now is realising, that "oh no they won't "


    The opportunity doesn't arise often, but whenever I've discussed the subject of which party is better for the economy I've never come across a single conservative who can put up a remotely credible case that their party has a better record. They have usually give up as soon as you point out that the 3 day week was under Heath. Few have heard of the Barber Boom. And as for the amateur demand management and its adverse consequences of the early Thatcher years - the delusion is extraordinary.

    Oh, C'mon - you are just being silly. The 3-day week under Heath was because the unions ran the country then, largely thanks to Harold Wilson bottling it when Barbara Castle (of all people!) tried to so something about it with In Place of Strife. Yes it is true that Heath failed to grasp the nettle, but you can hardly to point to Labour as having done better on that - the strikes were as bad or even worse under Callaghan. The Barber boom was part of that same picture. And you seem to have forgotten that the mismanagement under Callaghan was so bad that control of the economy had to be handed over to the IMF.

    As for Thatcher, just look at the contrast between the utter mess she inherited - the sick man of Europe, universally considered to be condemned to indefinite decline - and the booming economy, universally regarded as one of the strongest in Europe, which was her legacy.

    More recently, compare and contrast the disaster of the Brown government with the sound management of Osborne. Once again, it required a Conservative Chancellor to rescue the country from the abyss. Darling, let us never forget, was borrowing one pound for every three raised in tax - a humongous failure by any standard.
    See what I mean?

This discussion has been closed.