Thats assuming that there is a deal to vote on. Someone is going to have to massively compromise. It won't be the EU, and I doubt that May could get a massive compromise through the cabinet never mind her party.
From where we are now, both sides need to make concessions to get to a deal. It’s going to come down to whether or not an electronic border in NI is acceptable to the EU, or if they decide a physical one is required instead. If there’s no agreement then it’s the physical border they insist they don’t want.
It's really not complicated - depite the continual disingenuousness of Brexiters. If we want a porous border in Ireland, we must have a Swiss or Norway type deal. If May won't accept such a deal, then the border in Ireland will be far from porous. (Though there is the possibility that 10 or 20 years down the line, that might change as technology progresses.) The EU cannot and will not concede on this point. The ball remains, where it's always been, in our court.
The issue is that the border is no problem at all for the U.K. - we are happy to police it with technology given that people are free to cross under the CTA which remains in place. It’s only a problem for the EU.
Clearly we're not happy to police it with technology given that we passed a law to rule that out.
Did we? I await to be enlightened.
We did pass a law that says it’s not allowed to treat NI any differently from the rest of the U.K. though.
The EU Withdrawal Act has a whole section on the prevention of new border arrangements.
The language there reflects the UK government’s interpretation of the December agreement, and says that we won’t put any new infrastructure at the border itself. Which we won’t. All we’ll be doing is making use of existing ANPR technology that’s already reading number plates of vehicles close to (but not at) the border.
How does an ANPR camera know what is in a truck?
Why would we care (any more than we do at the moment)?
Thats assuming that there is a deal to vote on. Someone is going to have to massively compromise. It won't be the EU, and I doubt that May could get a massive compromise through the cabinet never mind her party.
From where we are now, both sides need to make concessions to get to a deal. It’s going to come down to whether or not an electronic border in NI is acceptable to the EU, or if they decide a physical one is required instead. If there’s no agreement then it’s the physical border they insist they don’t want.
It's really not complicated - depite the continual disingenuousness of Brexiters. If we want a porous border in Ireland, we must have a Swiss or Norway type deal. If May won't accept such a deal, then the border in Ireland will be far from porous. (Though there is the possibility that 10 or 20 years down the line, that might change as technology progresses.) The EU cannot and will not concede on this point. The ball remains, where it's always been, in our court.
The issue is that the border is no problem at all for the U.K. - we are happy to police it with technology given that people are free to cross under the CTA which remains in place. It’s only a problem for the EU.
Clearly we're not happy to police it with technology given that we passed a law to rule that out.
Did we? I await to be enlightened.
We did pass a law that says it’s not allowed to treat NI any differently from the rest of the U.K. though.
The EU Withdrawal Act has a whole section on the prevention of new border arrangements.
The language there reflects the UK government’s interpretation of the December agreement, and says that we won’t put any new infrastructure at the border itself. Which we won’t. All we’ll be doing is making use of existing ANPR technology that’s already reading number plates of vehicles close to (but not at) the border.
How does an ANPR camera know what is in a truck?
It doesn't need to. Customs are just a tax and taxes operate through self reporting, random inspections and publishing fraud. If ANPR knows a truck has passed that trucks operator should have declared anything that needs declaring. Random away from the border inspections can check for fraud. Problem solved.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
The fact that some men dress as women, or would like to be regarded as women, or even sincerely believe that they are women, doesn't alter the fact that they are men. It is beyond bizarre to claim that an objective fact is altered simply by self-identification. I've always thought it would be fantastic to sing a Wagnerian soprano role, but if I self-identity as a great operatic soprano, that doesn't make me a great operatic soprano, does it?
Thats assuming that there is a deal to vote on. Someone is going to have to massively compromise. It won't be the EU, and I doubt that May could get a massive compromise through the cabinet never mind her party.
From where we are now, both sides need to make concessions to get to a deal. It’s going to come down to whether or not an electronic border in NI is acceptable to the EU, or if they decide a physical one is required instead. If there’s no agreement then it’s the physical border they insist they don’t want.
It's really not complicated - depite the continual disingenuousness of Brexiters. If we want a porous border in Ireland, we must have a Swiss or Norway type deal. If May won't accept such a deal, then the border in Ireland will be far from porous. (Though there is the possibility that 10 or 20 years down the line, that might change as technology progresses.) The EU cannot and will not concede on this point. The ball remains, where it's always been, in our court.
The issue is that the border is no problem at all for the U.K. - we are happy to police it with technology given that people are free to cross under the CTA which remains in place. It’s only a problem for the EU.
Clearly we're not happy to police it with technology given that we passed a law to rule that out.
Did we? I await to be enlightened.
We did pass a law that says it’s not allowed to treat NI any differently from the rest of the U.K. though.
The EU Withdrawal Act has a whole section on the prevention of new border arrangements.
The language there reflects the UK government’s interpretation of the December agreement, and says that we won’t put any new infrastructure at the border itself. Which we won’t. All we’ll be doing is making use of existing ANPR technology that’s already reading number plates of vehicles close to (but not at) the border.
How does an ANPR camera know what is in a truck?
It doesn’t, and it doesn’t need to. Vehicles with an electronic customs declaration are logged as they pass, goods vehicles without one are noted and add to the intelligence used by police and customs enforcement officers who continue to do exactly the same as they do now, which is to stop suspicious vehicles on the roads of Northern Ireland. Nothing at the border changes at all.
That was a really stupid thing for the Chinese to do.
Why?
Two reasons:
1) It will generate popular support for the tarriffs etc in much the same way as the Guardian letters to American voters did 2) Trump is going to go on and on and on about it till the elections.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
The fact that some men dress as women, or would like to be regarded as women, or even sincerely believe that they are women, doesn't alter the fact that they are men. It is beyond bizarre to claim that an objective fact is altered simply by self-identification. I've always thought it would be fantastic to sing a Wagnerian soprano role, but if I self-identity as a great operatic soprano, that doesn't make me a great operatic soprano, does it?
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Do you know any transgender people?
Yes.
Then you should know it's a little more complex than just "men who think they are women".
That was a really stupid thing for the Chinese to do.
Why?
Because it looks like a pretty blatant example of foreign interference in an American election. Trump is going to be over the moon, which I don’t think was the intention of those who paid for the ad.
I wonder who paid for the advert, and what the Iowan rules are about imprinting political adverts in newspapers during election campaigns?
It doesn’t, and it doesn’t need to. Vehicles with an electronic customs declaration are logged as they pass, goods vehicles without one are noted and add to the intelligence used by police and customs enforcement officers who continue to do exactly the same as they do now, which is to stop suspicious vehicles on the roads of Northern Ireland. Nothing at the border changes at all.
Which means checks which have been ruled out, and red tape, which is against the spirit of Brexit.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
It doesn’t, and it doesn’t need to. Vehicles with an electronic customs declaration are logged as they pass, goods vehicles without one are noted and add to the intelligence used by police and customs enforcement officers who continue to do exactly the same as they do now, which is to stop suspicious vehicles on the roads of Northern Ireland. Nothing at the border changes at all.
Which means checks which have been ruled out, and red tape, which is against the spirit of Brexit.
It will be thorough checks and red tape like it is for emissions testing in NI MOT's.....
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
A man who goes through the medical process of changing sex is not simply self-identifying, so most of your comment is besides the point.
Still, I can see great advantages in this self-identification idea. It means an organisation can close the gender pay gap just by filling in a form. Yes, it really is that bonkers.
It doesn’t, and it doesn’t need to. Vehicles with an electronic customs declaration are logged as they pass, goods vehicles without one are noted and add to the intelligence used by police and customs enforcement officers who continue to do exactly the same as they do now, which is to stop suspicious vehicles on the roads of Northern Ireland. Nothing at the border changes at all.
Which means checks which have been ruled out, and red tape, which is against the spirit of Brexit.
It will be thorough checks and red tape like it is for emissions testing in NI MOT's.....
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
It doesn’t, and it doesn’t need to. Vehicles with an electronic customs declaration are logged as they pass, goods vehicles without one are noted and add to the intelligence used by police and customs enforcement officers who continue to do exactly the same as they do now, which is to stop suspicious vehicles on the roads of Northern Ireland. Nothing at the border changes at all.
Which means checks which have been ruled out, and red tape, which is against the spirit of Brexit.
The checks already take place, police and customs are already looking for people smuggling things across the border because they’re contraband or evading duty, it’s just that for the obvious political reasons the border itself is completely open and the policing is done remotely.
The only difference post-Brexit would be that importers would be required to fill in an online goods manifest and pay the appropriate taxes/duties/tarrifs. Nothing at the border changes at all.
It doesn’t, and it doesn’t need to. Vehicles with an electronic customs declaration are logged as they pass, goods vehicles without one are noted and add to the intelligence used by police and customs enforcement officers who continue to do exactly the same as they do now, which is to stop suspicious vehicles on the roads of Northern Ireland. Nothing at the border changes at all.
Which means checks which have been ruled out, and red tape, which is against the spirit of Brexit.
It will be thorough checks and red tape like it is for emissions testing in NI MOT's.....
Another reason why the EU shouldn’t buy it!
The EU didn't seem too fussed when it was VW emissions testing.
You aren't suggesting the EU have double standards?
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
A man who goes through the medical process of changing sex is not simply self-identifying, so most of your comment is besides the point.
Still, I can see great advantages in this self-identification idea. It means an organisation can close the gender pay gap just by filling in a form. Yes, it really is that bonkers.
A "trans woman" is defined as a male to female transsexual. That advert was targeted at them, and they are the people TERFs are attacking.
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
The Labour manifesto should be interesting at the next election. Suicide notes spring to mind.
From the information in the PPB, it is utter rubbish. I thought that sort of nonsense had been consigned to the past. They even claimed that people would spend more money in local shops after they implemented the changes. It was total change of the economic system they were advocating.
The only thing that troubles me is the mess the Tories have created with Brexit as otherwise I would have said there was no chance of Labour being elected. Ironically for the Brexiteers, Brexit, particularly a hard one could well mean Labour gain power and sweep capitalism away. You have to ask them, Brexit- was it really worth it? My reply would be NO.
There is a certain delicious irony to Corbyn's big speech being upstaged by the unveiling of a Russian spy.....
Yes, it is an astonishing coincidence. Almost as astonishing as the coincidence of Russian sightseers just happening to walk past the Skripal house on the day of the poisoning.
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
A man who goes through the medical process of changing sex is not simply self-identifying, so most of your comment is besides the point.
Still, I can see great advantages in this self-identification idea. It means an organisation can close the gender pay gap just by filling in a form. Yes, it really is that bonkers.
A "trans woman" is defined as a male to female transsexual. That advert was targeted at them, and they are the people TERFs are attacking.
Tut tut, you should know better than to say that this is a 'definition' A quick Google will provide a bunch of furious arguments about the term. (Fury seems rather common in this field).
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
You're an intelligent chap - what don't you understand? It means feminists (who self-identify as 'radical' feminists) who want to exclude transgender women from being women.
' Customs delays of 30 minutes will bankrupt one in 10 firms, say bosses '
to the first paragraph:
' Delays of only half an hour at UK ports and the Irish border would risk one in 10 British firms going bankrupt '
So 'will' becomes 'would risk'
Apparently if goods are delayed by 10 minutes businesses go bankrupt.
So how many businesses went bankrupt in March when the M62 was closed by snow ? Or when there's any other transport delays caused by traffic jams etc ?
That without mentioning that most businesses are not importing and exporting on a daily basis.
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
A man who goes through the medical process of changing sex is not simply self-identifying, so most of your comment is besides the point.
Still, I can see great advantages in this self-identification idea. It means an organisation can close the gender pay gap just by filling in a form. Yes, it really is that bonkers.
A "trans woman" is defined as a male to female transsexual. That advert was targeted at them, and they are the people TERFs are attacking.
Tut tut, you should know better than to say that this is a 'definition' A quick Google will provide a bunch of furious arguments about the term. (Fury seems rather common in this field).
The best way to participate in this discussion is to watch. Anything you say (post) will be used in evidence against you.
The Labour manifesto should be interesting at the next election. Suicide notes spring to mind.
From the information in the PPB, it is utter rubbish. I thought that sort of nonsense had been consigned to the past. They even claimed that people would spend more money in local shops after they implemented the changes. It was total change of the economic system they were advocating.
The only thing that troubles me is the mess the Tories have created with Brexit as otherwise I would have said there was no chance of Labour being elected. Ironically for the Brexiteers, Brexit, particularly a hard one could well mean Labour gain power and sweep capitalism away. You have to ask them, Brexit- was it really worth it? My reply would be NO.
The real double whammy would be Remain AND Jezza as PM.
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
You're an intelligent chap - what don't you understand? It means feminists (who self-identify as 'radical' feminists) who want to exclude transgender women from being women.
Do you think they're right?
The reason I'm puzzled is the radical feminist part of it. Surely most women who have conventional views about not accepting that a man can become a woman simply by saying that he* is a woman are neither radical nor especially feminist.
Edit: Do I think they are right that mere self-identification doesn't change your sex? Yes, of course; sex is determined by chromosomes, with a small proportion of unusual combinations.
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
A man who goes through the medical process of changing sex is not simply self-identifying, so most of your comment is besides the point.
Still, I can see great advantages in this self-identification idea. It means an organisation can close the gender pay gap just by filling in a form. Yes, it really is that bonkers.
A "trans woman" is defined as a male to female transsexual. That advert was targeted at them, and they are the people TERFs are attacking.
Tut tut, you should know better than to say that this is a 'definition' A quick Google will provide a bunch of furious arguments about the term. (Fury seems rather common in this field).
There are many arguments (especially about details), but that is a generally accepted definition that is in at least one dictionary. You may note there are many terms we use daily (especially on here) over which there are furious arguments if you want to get equally fussy in the future).
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
This might make things clearer, or perhaps not:
' Pride in London organisers have apologised after anti-trans protesters "forced their way to the front of the parade".
Members of lesbian and feminist group Get The L Out demanded to march behind the rainbow flag, which marks the start of the event, organisers said.
The group argues the trans movement is attacking lesbian rights and said it protested to protect those rights.
...
A Get The L Out spokeswoman said: "We protested to protect our rights and on behalf of all the lesbians intimidated, threatened and silenced by the GBT community everywhere.
"The GBT community today, by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians.
"This is a misogynistic and anti-lesbian manifestation of the rape culture we live in." '
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
You're an intelligent chap - what don't you understand? It means feminists (who self-identify as 'radical' feminists) who want to exclude transgender women from being women.
Do you think they're right?
The reason I'm puzzled is the radical feminist part of it. Surely most women who have conventional views about not accepting that a man can become a woman simply by saying that he* is a woman are neither radical nor especially feminist.
* I know, I know...
The term was coined by a Radical Feminist to distinguish those amongst their number who don't like trans people from those who are more accepting. Of course it has come to encompass all who hold this view, whether radical, feminist or not.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
The fact that some men dress as women, or would like to be regarded as women, or even sincerely believe that they are women, doesn't alter the fact that they are men. It is beyond bizarre to claim that an objective fact is altered simply by self-identification. I've always thought it would be fantastic to sing a Wagnerian soprano role, but if I self-identity as a great operatic soprano, that doesn't make me a great operatic soprano, does it?
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
This might make things clearer, or perhaps not:
' Pride in London organisers have apologised after anti-trans protesters "forced their way to the front of the parade".
Members of lesbian and feminist group Get The L Out demanded to march behind the rainbow flag, which marks the start of the event, organisers said.
The group argues the trans movement is attacking lesbian rights and said it protested to protect those rights.
...
A Get The L Out spokeswoman said: "We protested to protect our rights and on behalf of all the lesbians intimidated, threatened and silenced by the GBT community everywhere.
"The GBT community today, by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians.
"This is a misogynistic and anti-lesbian manifestation of the rape culture we live in." '
Horrific indeed, though why she went to over 10 of these parties is a mystery.
Clearly this is another level of seriousness to the previous allegations but the question comes to mind, if these allegations are true, why did no-one go to the police at the time?
Remember in the US it is illegal for under 21s to drink alcohol, even in a private residence. Anyone going to the police would be implicating themselves and everyone else there in a crime. Plus at the time attitudes to consent were very different
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
The fact that some men dress as women, or would like to be regarded as women, or even sincerely believe that they are women, doesn't alter the fact that they are men. It is beyond bizarre to claim that an objective fact is altered simply by self-identification. I've always thought it would be fantastic to sing a Wagnerian soprano role, but if I self-identity as a great operatic soprano, that doesn't make me a great operatic soprano, does it?
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
I’d say for 99%+ of people it is that binary.
dixiedean:
1.7% of babies born are intersex, that is having genitalia with either or features. This encompasses more than a few different medical conditions. Slightly fewer than 99% then. More common than twins, however.
You might not have encountered the transgender rights people.... lots of anger and hormone injections.
I've not encountered them, but I am aware that they are fanatics.
Fanatically demanding basic rights and recognition.
The bounders and cads.
I’m not sure the vast majority of most people would have an issue with that.
It’s answering anyone who tests what the nuances of that mean (legitimately) at the boundaries but being answered only by accusations of bigotry that people have an issue with.
Horrific indeed, though why she went to over 10 of these parties is a mystery.
Clearly this is another level of seriousness to the previous allegations but the question comes to mind, if these allegations are true, why did no-one go to the police at the time?
Remember in the US it is illegal for under 21s to drink alcohol, even in a private residence. Anyone going to the police would be implicating themselves and everyone else there in a crime. Plus at the time attitudes to consent were very different
Not true. It varies by state but most allow 18-21s, and some allow under-18s, to consume alcohol with parental permission in private.
ETA: plus most places even if the consumer is committing a crime, the authorities will almost always go after the supplier, not the consumer.
Physically, some studies show that about 1.7% of all people are intersex.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
Horrific indeed, though why she went to over 10 of these parties is a mystery.
I believe in Rotherham, it is known as grooming. By normalising deviant behaviour, recurrent abuse becomes possible.
Though, while I did see some vile misogynist behaviour at University in the 1980's, these allegations would be beyond the pale, even then. On the other hand, that classic eighties film, "Rita, Sue and Bob too" does seem remarkably open about these things.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
I’d say for 99%+ of people it is that binary.
As regulars will know, I'm transgender, and have been on HT for several years, though my physicality makes social transition...challenging (I am very big even by male standards). I've been increasingly bemused by the stridency and virulence (not here particularly) ostensibly on my behalf. I don't claim to be in any way representative of the 'trans community', and given I'm pushing 60, I'm a dinosaur in terms of language (not many 'transsexuals' about these days, and 'sexual reassignment surgery' has been replaced by 'gender confirmation surgery').
However, FWIW, in that very literal sense, transwomen are not women. We have every right to be treated as such by the state once we travel down the road to full transition, but our rights don't trump those of others. It's a genuinely difficult question. Again, FWIW, I disagree with self-id, but I'm probably out of step with the zeitgeist here too .
Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.
I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.
The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.
The Commons will both mandate the government to avoid crash Brexit whilst simultaneously rejecting the remaining options which would avoid crash Brexit. So we are going to need something to change as clearly thats not untenable but absurd.
I expect they will go for a CU in the end, as someone said upthread, someone will blink.
I don't see why the EU - whose principal objective seems to be to prevent the UK from having the full benefits of membership without its full obligations - would accept that.
That and they also don’t want the UK to enjoy it “a la carte”.
What that boils down to is either having all the benefits and obligations without the rights, or dismember the UK or no deal.
Either of those would offer sufficient visible punishment.
Edit: Do I think they are right that mere self-identification doesn't change your sex? Yes, of course; sex is determined by chromosomes, with a small proportion of unusual combinations.
There are multiple recorded instances, including people who have given birth, of people who have a full set of female sexual organs but have an X and a Y chromosome.
Are they male or female? You seem to think it is pretty simple and clear cut.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
I’d say for 99%+ of people it is that binary.
As regulars will know, I'm transgender, and have been on HT for several years, though my physicality makes social transition...challenging (I am very big even by male standards). I've been increasingly bemused by the stridency and virulence (not here particularly) ostensibly on my behalf. I don't claim to be in any way representative of the 'trans community', and given I'm pushing 60, I'm a dinosaur in terms of language (not many 'transsexuals' about these days, and 'sexual reassignment surgery' has been replaced by 'gender confirmation surgery').
However, FWIW, in that very literal sense, transwomen are not women. We have every right to be treated as such by the state once we travel down the road to full transition, but our rights don't trump those of others. It's a genuinely difficult question. Again, FWIW, I disagree with self-id, but I'm probably out of step with the zeitgeist here too .
I didn’t know that actually. I might have missed it when you said before.
Thanks for letting me know, and for writing such a thoughtful and considered post.
Physically, some studies show that about 1.7% of all people are intersex.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
Whilst chromosomes dictate the genitalia, what makes someone a manly man, an effeminate man or butch woman has not been widely studied. Until recently, it was commonly believed to be nurture, although some recent research, and more in the pipeline, suggests the exposure to hormones in the womb may play a role.
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
This might make things clearer, or perhaps not:
' Pride in London organisers have apologised after anti-trans protesters "forced their way to the front of the parade".
Members of lesbian and feminist group Get The L Out demanded to march behind the rainbow flag, which marks the start of the event, organisers said.
The group argues the trans movement is attacking lesbian rights and said it protested to protect those rights.
...
A Get The L Out spokeswoman said: "We protested to protect our rights and on behalf of all the lesbians intimidated, threatened and silenced by the GBT community everywhere.
"The GBT community today, by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians.
"This is a misogynistic and anti-lesbian manifestation of the rape culture we live in." '
Physically, some studies show that about 1.7% of all people are intersex.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
That’s possible. And I don’t think it does.
I think the harm comes when such “rights” agendas cease to becomes about fairness and tolerance and become more akin to religious orthodoxy, with those who question or challenge aspects of it are persecuted and hounded from their jobs.
In the case of the Girl Guides I think the most likely effect is that it will put some people off joining the Girl Guides and other parents from supporting their daughters joining the Girl Guides.
As regulars will know, I'm transgender, and have been on HT for several years, though my physicality makes social transition...challenging (I am very big even by male standards). I've been increasingly bemused by the stridency and virulence (not here particularly) ostensibly on my behalf. I don't claim to be in any way representative of the 'trans community', and given I'm pushing 60, I'm a dinosaur in terms of language (not many 'transsexuals' about these days, and 'sexual reassignment surgery' has been replaced by 'gender confirmation surgery').
However, FWIW, in that very literal sense, transwomen are not women. We have every right to be treated as such by the state once we travel down the road to full transition, but our rights don't trump those of others. It's a genuinely difficult question. Again, FWIW, I disagree with self-id, but I'm probably out of step with the zeitgeist here too .
Fair enough; that is a very mature way of seeing it.
From the experience of friends and acquaintances of mine who have gone through this, it is sometimes not a case of their rights trumping those of others; it is others not giving them any rights. I've seen some pretty atrocious abuse of transwomen (and one trans-man), even in a professional environment.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
I’d say for 99%+ of people it is that binary.
As regulars will know, I'm transgender, and have been on HT for several years, though my physicality makes social transition...challenging (I am very big even by male standards). I've been increasingly bemused by the stridency and virulence (not here particularly) ostensibly on my behalf. I don't claim to be in any way representative of the 'trans community', and given I'm pushing 60, I'm a dinosaur in terms of language (not many 'transsexuals' about these days, and 'sexual reassignment surgery' has been replaced by 'gender confirmation surgery').
However, FWIW, in that very literal sense, transwomen are not women. We have every right to be treated as such by the state once we travel down the road to full transition, but our rights don't trump those of others. It's a genuinely difficult question. Again, FWIW, I disagree with self-id, but I'm probably out of step with the zeitgeist here too .
I used to share a secretarial office with a Urologist specialising in external gender altering surgery. I got to meet a fair number of patients transitioning as a result. Most were older, and some past retirement age, and generally quiet and unassuming rather than activist zealots. Some were certainly a bit odd, but perhaps a lifetime feeling oneself is in the wrong body does that to a person.
Personally, I cannot see any easy answers. Both Trans and Cis women need understanding.
Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU? As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.
The big difference is Labour is fine with the customs union. On the single market, more tricky, bit more cakeism. But they have a more room to negotiate because they don't care about trade deals. The issue would be FOM I think.
As there won't be any trade deals that won't pose a problem. I know that Liam Fox says we will get much better trade deals than the one we have as part of the EU but as anyone with a brain can see you don't give preferential terms to the smaller party (us) than you do the bigger party (the EU).
FOM is the big Labour issue. A LOT of Labour voters genuinely fed up with foreign workers reducing wages. Or in some cases just fed up with foreigners. That even the crash Brexit people say there won't be any significant change in migration must really hack them off. How any politician in any party squares off expectations with practical reality is beyond me.
The difference is we get tailored terms
They may not be better as a whole than the EU deal, but they could be better *for us*
Physically, some studies show that about 1.7% of all people are intersex.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
Whilst chromosomes dictate the genitalia, what makes someone a manly man, an effeminate man or butch woman has not been widely studied. Until recently, it was commonly believed to be nurture, although some recent research, and more in the pipeline, suggests the exposure to hormones in the womb may play a role.
There's some evidence that it may be linked to sex hormone sequencing in utero and there are also some studies linking DES (diethylstilbestrol ,administered to pregnant women from the 40s through 70s) to a higher occurence of transgenderism in male children.
Intuitively, a mix of nature (providing the predeliction) and nurture would seem a reasonable position to take.
"Jeremy Corbyn delivered the best speech of all time at today's Labour Party Conference."
Better than "I have a dream", the Gettysburg Address or the Sermon on the Mount apparently.
It certainly was longer. If it had been at Gettysburg, he could have hoped the enemy might get bored and wonder off, or die of old age.
The Gettysburg address was 4 months after the battle, at the opening of a military cemetary on the battlefield. As such, much of those present would have been delighted at being able to wander off and die of old age!
I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
Almost certainly not grouse! (Partridge?)
Maybe, I am no expert as you have already gathered
They were brown and hopped around a lot. The pheasant obviously are distinctive even to a layman.
I know you’re a layman... but are you sure it wasn’t a rabbit... 😆
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Do you know any transgender people?
Yes.
We each know who we are. How can anyone else tell us who we are?
"Jeremy Corbyn delivered the best speech of all time at today's Labour Party Conference."
Better than "I have a dream", the Gettysburg Address or the Sermon on the Mount apparently.
It certainly was longer. If it had been at Gettysburg, he could have hoped the enemy might get bored and wonder off, or die of old age.
The Gettysburg address was 4 months after the battle, at the opening of a military cemetary on the battlefield. As such, much of those present would have been delighted at being able to wander off and die of old age!
I did not know that! Learn stuff all the time on here.
Physically, some studies show that about 1.7% of all people are intersex.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
Whilst chromosomes dictate the genitalia, what makes someone a manly man, an effeminate man or butch woman has not been widely studied. Until recently, it was commonly believed to be nurture, although some recent research, and more in the pipeline, suggests the exposure to hormones in the womb may play a role.
I think it's nowhere near as binary as people think, and that it is much more complex than that - perhaps for the reasons you state amongst others.
Physically, some studies show that about 1.7% of all people are intersex.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
Whilst chromosomes dictate the genitalia, what makes someone a manly man, an effeminate man or butch woman has not been widely studied. Until recently, it was commonly believed to be nurture, although some recent research, and more in the pipeline, suggests the exposure to hormones in the womb may play a role.
There's some evidence that it may be linked to sex hormone sequencing in utero and there are also some studies linking DES (diethylstilbestrol ,administered to pregnant women from the 40s through 70s) to a higher occurence of transgenderism in male children.
Intuitively, a mix of nature (providing the predeliction) and nurture would seem a reasonable position to take.
I used to help at a group for trans people so I have met dozens and I am still in contact with some of them. I learned all sorts of things such as the foetus's body plan is completed by the end of the first trimester. The nervous system and brain develop in the second trimester and if there is a hormonal disruption in weeks 15 or 16 then it can result in the brain not masculinising / feminising properly.
It can, quite literally, result in a feminised brain in a masculine body (and vice versa). I found it amazing that researchers had tied it down to the specific weeks. I remember being told that DES was like a thalidomide of the mind - most times there was no obvious effect, but when it went wrong, it went wrong big time.
I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
Almost certainly not grouse! (Partridge?)
Maybe, I am no expert as you have already gathered
They were brown and hopped around a lot. The pheasant obviously are distinctive even to a layman.
I know you’re a layman... but are you sure it wasn’t a rabbit... 😆
As a general rule, it is small birds who hop, being mostly tree and bush dwelling, while larger, ground feeding birds walk or run. There are some exceptions, but I think female pheasants do not hop.
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
You're an intelligent chap - what don't you understand? It means feminists (who self-identify as 'radical' feminists) who want to exclude transgender women from being women.
Do you think they're right?
The reason I'm puzzled is the radical feminist part of it. Surely most women who have conventional views about not accepting that a man can become a woman simply by saying that he* is a woman are neither radical nor especially feminist.
* I know, I know...
The term was coined by a Radical Feminist to distinguish those amongst their number who don't like trans people from those who are more accepting. Of course it has come to encompass all who hold this view, whether radical, feminist or not.
It's not that they don't like trans people, it's that they don't agree that genetic men should be able to self-identify as women, and that self-id have legal force and allow them into women-nay areas such as the Girl Guides and, erm, ladies' toilets. Germaine Greer is one such person, I believe.
Some radical feminists make the point that transwomen don't adopt anything like all the aspects of being a woman when undertaking gender realignment surgery – they don't gain ovaries, they don't menstruate, and they don't lose around 60% of their upper body strength, they simply change their sexual organs.
FWIW I have no idea what I think about this. It's a complex issue. I can see both sides of the argument. What I am totally against is prejudice against those people like @JohnM who feel trapped in the body of the opposite sex and want to live as the other sex. But that doesn't equate to being pro self-id.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Do you know any transgender people?
Yes.
We each know who we are. How can anyone else tell us who we are?
"Jeremy Corbyn delivered the best speech of all time at today's Labour Party Conference."
Better than "I have a dream", the Gettysburg Address or the Sermon on the Mount apparently.
MKL speech wasn't suppose to contain the I have a Dream part. Speakers were limited in time, he had actually already gone time and it was only because a lady he knew shouted out to him do your I have a Dream bit (as it was a bit he had before at smaller rallies), which he ad-libed in on the fly.
"Jeremy Corbyn delivered the best speech of all time at today's Labour Party Conference."
Better than "I have a dream", the Gettysburg Address or the Sermon on the Mount apparently.
It certainly was longer. If it had been at Gettysburg, he could have hoped the enemy might get bored and wonder off, or die of old age.
The Gettysburg address was 4 months after the battle, at the opening of a military cemetary on the battlefield. As such, much of those present would have been delighted at being able to wander off and die of old age!
And unlike Corbyn’s extraordinary, nay epochal, words, was not particularly highly though of at the time. No doubt Corbyn’s reputation will follow an inverse trajectory.
Physically, some studies show that about 1.7% of all people are intersex.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
Whilst chromosomes dictate the genitalia, what makes someone a manly man, an effeminate man or butch woman has not been widely studied. Until recently, it was commonly believed to be nurture, although some recent research, and more in the pipeline, suggests the exposure to hormones in the womb may play a role.
I think it's nowhere near as binary as people think, and that it is much more complex than that - perhaps for the reasons you state amongst others.
If that’s also true then it makes grading and variety more of an issue and the debate on boundaries /policy more important, not less.
Edit: Do I think they are right that mere self-identification doesn't change your sex? Yes, of course; sex is determined by chromosomes, with a small proportion of unusual combinations.
There are multiple recorded instances, including people who have given birth, of people who have a full set of female sexual organs but have an X and a Y chromosome.
Are they male or female? You seem to think it is pretty simple and clear cut.
But that incredibly rare type of case isn't anything to do with the controversy, which is about people who have perfectly normal physical characteristics and chromosomes of one sex who wish to self-identify as the opposite sex (or some sex of their own invention in some cases) .
Can we put to bed the idea that a new border will only exist on the EC side? This is a complete fallacy from Brexiters. In my experience it is the UK customs who are and will always be hard to please.
Today I just received some labels I ordered from the USA that had been stick in customs for 2 days. We have started to import goods from the USA via Holland just to bypass UK customs.
Someone explain how the following issue will be handled. A German company receives an order for automatic rifles from a Mr Billy aka UDA Boss. As the UK now no longer falls under the EC system to control arms the goods are packed up and sent to Dublin as export only. They get sent up to Armagh where the UK lets them in but asks Billy to send some paperwork later on and tells him they will go up to the Shankhill road later to check on them.
Well either Billy is a registered importer who has filed paperwork in advance or his goods don’t get waved through on fast track
I'm talking about the language of TERFs, how they attack and denigrate trans people.
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
I've no idea what a TERF is supposed to be, but women who don't like men coming into the ladies' loo, or don't think men should be on Labour Party all-women shortlists, aren't denigrating anyone.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
Well yes, I have seen what this acronym stands for, but it makes no sense.
You're an intelligent chap - what don't you understand? It means feminists (who self-identify as 'radical' feminists) who want to exclude transgender women from being women.
Do you think they're right?
The reason I'm puzzled is the radical feminist part of it. Surely most women who have conventional views about not accepting that a man can become a woman simply by saying that he* is a
It's not that they don't like trans people, it's that they don't agree that genetic men should be able to self-identify as women, and that self-id have legal force and allow them into women-nay areas such as the Girl Guides and, erm, ladies' toilets. Germaine Greer is one such person, I believe.
Some radical feminists make the point that transwomen don't adopt anything like all the aspects of being a woman when undertaking gender realignment surgery – they don't gain ovaries, they don't menstruate, and they don't lose around 60% of their upper body strength, they simply change their sexual organs.
FWIW I have no idea what I think about this. It's a complex issue. I can see both sides of the argument. What I am totally against is prejudice against those people like @JohnM who feel trapped in the body of the opposite sex and want to live as the other sex. But that doesn't equate to being pro self-id. </blockquote
dixiedean:
Au contraire. There is a small, but extremely vocal subsection who virulently despise and actively wish harm on trans people. The term was coined for these, and has widened to encompass many with more nuanced opinions. So don't like is rather mild.
Can we put to bed the idea that a new border will only exist on the EC side? This is a complete fallacy from Brexiters. In my experience it is the UK customs who are and will always be hard to please.
Today I just received some labels I ordered from the USA that had been stick in customs for 2 days. We have started to import goods from the USA via Holland just to bypass UK customs.
Someone explain how the following issue will be handled. A German company receives an order for automatic rifles from a Mr Billy aka UDA Boss. As the UK now no longer falls under the EC system to control arms the goods are packed up and sent to Dublin as export only. They get sent up to Armagh where the UK lets them in but asks Billy to send some paperwork later on and tells him they will go up to the Shankhill road later to check on them.
Well either Billy is a registered importer who has filed paperwork in advance or his goods don’t get waved through on fast track
This is another example of a regional framework (under OSCE) being superseded by a global treaty (google 'Arms Trade Treaty') signed in 2014 and handled at NATO level on behalf of member states.
Can we put to bed the idea that a new border will only exist on the EC side? This is a complete fallacy from Brexiters. In my experience it is the UK customs who are and will always be hard to please.
Today I just received some labels I ordered from the USA that had been stick in customs for 2 days. We have started to import goods from the USA via Holland just to bypass UK customs.
Someone explain how the following issue will be handled. A German company receives an order for automatic rifles from a Mr Billy aka UDA Boss. As the UK now no longer falls under the EC system to control arms the goods are packed up and sent to Dublin as export only. They get sent up to Armagh where the UK lets them in but asks Billy to send some paperwork later on and tells him they will go up to the Shankhill road later to check on them.
Well either Billy is a registered importer who has filed paperwork in advance or his goods don’t get waved through on fast track
He might not have picked the best example there with imports of “automatic rifles” and “Northern Ireland”.
In the geographic sense we are (also the sense in which I used to label my exercise books - full postal address followed by 'Europe, Earth, The Sun, The Milky Way, Universe #1' just in case my lucid prose should fall into a dimensional rift).
Edit: Do I think they are right that mere self-identification doesn't change your sex? Yes, of course; sex is determined by chromosomes, with a small proportion of unusual combinations.
There are multiple recorded instances, including people who have given birth, of people who have a full set of female sexual organs but have an X and a Y chromosome.
Are they male or female? You seem to think it is pretty simple and clear cut.
But that incredibly rare type of case isn't anything to do with the controversy, which is about people who have perfectly normal physical characteristics and chromosomes of one sex who wish to self-identify as the opposite sex (or some sex of their own invention in some cases) .
Does having XY chromosomes make you male?
Does having fully functioning female sex organs make you female?
Edit: Do I think they are right that mere self-identification doesn't change your sex? Yes, of course; sex is determined by chromosomes, with a small proportion of unusual combinations.
There are multiple recorded instances, including people who have given birth, of people who have a full set of female sexual organs but have an X and a Y chromosome.
Are they male or female? You seem to think it is pretty simple and clear cut.
But that incredibly rare type of case isn't anything to do with the controversy, which is about people who have perfectly normal physical characteristics and chromosomes of one sex who wish to self-identify as the opposite sex (or some sex of their own invention in some cases) .
Sex and gender are not the same thing.
Once you look into the biology of the whole thing, it soon becomes very clear that XX=female and XY=male is only a majority of cases. Even if it true for 99% of cases that means that there would be 650,000 people in the UK for whom it was not true. Not a trivial number - 1,000 football stadiums or something like that. Do we have 1,000 football stadia?
Can we put to bed the idea that a new border will only exist on the EC side? This is a complete fallacy from Brexiters. In my experience it is the UK customs who are and will always be hard to please.
Today I just received some labels I ordered from the USA that had been stick in customs for 2 days. We have started to import goods from the USA via Holland just to bypass UK customs.
Someone explain how the following issue will be handled. A German company receives an order for automatic rifles from a Mr Billy aka UDA Boss. As the UK now no longer falls under the EC system to control arms the goods are packed up and sent to Dublin as export only. They get sent up to Armagh where the UK lets them in but asks Billy to send some paperwork later on and tells him they will go up to the Shankhill road later to check on them.
Well either Billy is a registered importer who has filed paperwork in advance or his goods don’t get waved through on fast track
He might not have picked the best example there with imports of “automatic rifles” and “Northern Ireland”.
I assumed that given it was Mr Billy UDA who was the buyer that was intentional!
Comments
The fact that some men dress as women, or would like to be regarded as women, or even sincerely believe that they are women, doesn't alter the fact that they are men. It is beyond bizarre to claim that an objective fact is altered simply by self-identification. I've always thought it would be fantastic to sing a Wagnerian soprano role, but if I self-identity as a great operatic soprano, that doesn't make me a great operatic soprano, does it?
1) It will generate popular support for the tarriffs etc in much the same way as the Guardian letters to American voters did
2) Trump is going to go on and on and on about it till the elections.
As for your somewhat poor analogy:; if you were to spend years training to sing a Wagnenrian soprano role, be tested by doctors and psychologists, and then be operated on to improve your ability to sing then yes, you might be able to self-identify as an operatic soprano.
Transsexuals have to go through such tests and more. It's not an easy process, and perhaps deliberately and rightly so.
Transsexuals seem to be the next target of bigots, after racism, homophobia and sexism are generally being frowned upon.
I wonder who paid for the advert, and what the Iowan rules are about imprinting political adverts in newspapers during election campaigns?
It's like how of you tell someone to go fuck themselves you are not actually issuing a literal instruction that they should do so but are instead voicing your displeasure at them.
Still, I can see great advantages in this self-identification idea. It means an organisation can close the gender pay gap just by filling in a form. Yes, it really is that bonkers.
The only difference post-Brexit would be that importers would be required to fill in an online goods manifest and pay the appropriate taxes/duties/tarrifs. Nothing at the border changes at all.
You aren't suggesting the EU have double standards?
Exclusionary
Radical
Feminist
You'll be telling us next you don't know who the QUILTBAGs are.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2018/sep/24/john-mcdonnell-is-not-offering-workers-real-share-ownership
The Conservatives might do well to read it.
The Labour manifesto should be interesting at the next election. Suicide notes spring to mind.
From the information in the PPB, it is utter rubbish. I thought that sort of nonsense had been consigned to the past. They even claimed that people would spend more money in local shops after they implemented the changes. It was total change of the economic system they were advocating.
The only thing that troubles me is the mess the Tories have created with Brexit as otherwise I would have said there was no chance of Labour being elected. Ironically for the Brexiteers, Brexit, particularly a hard one could well mean Labour gain power and sweep capitalism away. You have to ask them, Brexit- was it really worth it? My reply would be NO.
Do you think they're right?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/26/no-deal-brexit-minor-port-delays-30-minutes-bankrupt-1-in-10-uk-firms
Compare the headline:
' Customs delays of 30 minutes will bankrupt one in 10 firms, say bosses '
to the first paragraph:
' Delays of only half an hour at UK ports and the Irish border would risk one in 10 British firms going bankrupt '
So 'will' becomes 'would risk'
Apparently if goods are delayed by 10 minutes businesses go bankrupt.
So how many businesses went bankrupt in March when the M62 was closed by snow ? Or when there's any other transport delays caused by traffic jams etc ?
That without mentioning that most businesses are not importing and exporting on a daily basis.
To coin a phrase, all options are on the table...
Edit: Do I think they are right that mere self-identification doesn't change your sex? Yes, of course; sex is determined by chromosomes, with a small proportion of unusual combinations.
* I know, I know...
What is your preferred alternative definition?
' Pride in London organisers have apologised after anti-trans protesters "forced their way to the front of the parade".
Members of lesbian and feminist group Get The L Out demanded to march behind the rainbow flag, which marks the start of the event, organisers said.
The group argues the trans movement is attacking lesbian rights and said it protested to protect those rights.
...
A Get The L Out spokeswoman said: "We protested to protect our rights and on behalf of all the lesbians intimidated, threatened and silenced by the GBT community everywhere.
"The GBT community today, by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians.
"This is a misogynistic and anti-lesbian manifestation of the rape culture we live in." '
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44757403
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/26/uk-appoints-food-supplies-minister-amid-fears-of-no-deal-brexit
It tells the truth.
Apparently the definition of "woman" from a dictionary is, according to some doctor in Sunderland (not himself a trans woman) hate speech towards men who think they are women. He complained and the company which put up the billboard caved in instead of growing a pair and telling him to get a life.
The irony of a man telling women that he knows better than them what it is to be a woman is, presumably, lost on this bellend.
Though it is amusing how it is preposterous to say the ad was an attack on trans women while at the same time the person behind this ad will coincidentally now rant against transgenderism and how trans women aren't real women.
I think the issue is with self-id, rather than being against transgender folk generally.
No, it's against transgender folks generally.
In the language of TERFs this putting up a poster 'defining' what a woman is about denying trans women and men personhood and agency.
It's not a poster 'defining' what a woman is. It's a poster displaying a standard English definition of a woman.
The fact that some men dress as women, or would like to be regarded as women, or even sincerely believe that they are women, doesn't alter the fact that they are men. It is beyond bizarre to claim that an objective fact is altered simply by self-identification. I've always thought it would be fantastic to sing a Wagnerian soprano role, but if I self-identity as a great operatic soprano, that doesn't make me a great operatic soprano, does it?
Do you really think it's that binary? That all men are men, and all women are women? If so, how do you refer to the many intersex people?
I’d say for 99%+ of people it is that binary.
dixiedean:
1.7% of babies born are intersex, that is having genitalia with either or features. This encompasses more than a few different medical conditions. Slightly fewer than 99% then.
More common than twins, however.
It’s answering anyone who tests what the nuances of that mean (legitimately) at the boundaries but being answered only by accusations of bigotry that people have an issue with.
ETA: plus most places even if the consumer is committing a crime, the authorities will almost always go after the supplier, not the consumer.
"Jeremy Corbyn delivered the best speech of all time at today's Labour Party Conference."
Better than "I have a dream", the Gettysburg Address or the Sermon on the Mount apparently.
I do wonder if there's a sort of 'mental' intersex: those who whilst they have the fully functioning physical features of their gender, have seen themselves as the opposite sex from their earliest memories.
An old schoolfriend of mine is in that category, has had the ops, and is far happier living as a woman than he was as a man. I can't see how it harms anyone else.
Though, while I did see some vile misogynist behaviour at University in the 1980's, these allegations would be beyond the pale, even then. On the other hand, that classic eighties film, "Rita, Sue and Bob too" does seem remarkably open about these things.
https://youtu.be/LXtx6N3ww7Y
However, FWIW, in that very literal sense, transwomen are not women. We have every right to be treated as such by the state once we travel down the road to full transition, but our rights don't trump those of others. It's a genuinely difficult question. Again, FWIW, I disagree with self-id, but I'm probably out of step with the zeitgeist here too
What that boils down to is either having all the benefits and obligations without the rights, or dismember the UK or no deal.
Either of those would offer sufficient visible punishment.
Are they male or female? You seem to think it is pretty simple and clear cut.
Thanks for letting me know, and for writing such a thoughtful and considered post.
I think the harm comes when such “rights” agendas cease to becomes about fairness and tolerance and become more akin to religious orthodoxy, with those who question or challenge aspects of it are persecuted and hounded from their jobs.
In the case of the Girl Guides I think the most likely effect is that it will put some people off joining the Girl Guides and other parents from supporting their daughters joining the Girl Guides.
That’s where the harm will be done.
From the experience of friends and acquaintances of mine who have gone through this, it is sometimes not a case of their rights trumping those of others; it is others not giving them any rights. I've seen some pretty atrocious abuse of transwomen (and one trans-man), even in a professional environment.
Personally, I cannot see any easy answers. Both Trans and Cis women need understanding.
They may not be better as a whole than the EU deal, but they could be better *for us*
Intuitively, a mix of nature (providing the predeliction) and nurture would seem a reasonable position to take.
It can, quite literally, result in a feminised brain in a masculine body (and vice versa). I found it amazing that researchers had tied it down to the specific weeks. I remember being told that DES was like a thalidomide of the mind - most times there was no obvious effect, but when it went wrong, it went wrong big time.
Some radical feminists make the point that transwomen don't adopt anything like all the aspects of being a woman when undertaking gender realignment surgery – they don't gain ovaries, they don't menstruate, and they don't lose around 60% of their upper body strength, they simply change their sexual organs.
FWIW I have no idea what I think about this. It's a complex issue. I can see both sides of the argument. What I am totally against is prejudice against those people like @JohnM who feel trapped in the body of the opposite sex and want to live as the other sex. But that doesn't equate to being pro self-id.
Sometimes others can help clarify that for us.
MKL speech wasn't suppose to contain the I have a Dream part. Speakers were limited in time, he had actually already gone time and it was only because a lady he knew shouted out to him do your I have a Dream bit (as it was a bit he had before at smaller rallies), which he ad-libed in on the fly.
No doubt Corbyn’s reputation will follow an inverse trajectory.
Just trying to catch up on today's news... Is Kavanaugh toast forllowing the latest allegation?
Does having fully functioning female sex organs make you female?
This goes to the very heart of the TERF argument.
Once you look into the biology of the whole thing, it soon becomes very clear that XX=female and XY=male is only a majority of cases. Even if it true for 99% of cases that means that there would be 650,000 people in the UK for whom it was not true. Not a trivial number - 1,000 football stadiums or something like that. Do we have 1,000 football stadia?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/26/distracted-boyfriend-meme-sexist-swedish-advertising