(1) in a forced choice (for simplicity) between Corbyn’s Labour and the Tories how do you vote?
and
(2) should I, as an activist, work to get a anti-Semite to the position of PM or should I work to offer a decent, healthy alternative to the Tories?
I’m saddened by you @RochdalePioneers. I think you're a decent honourable man. But you are making the wrong choice and justifying evil
I can't do both? Given the choice of any Labour government or any Tory government I go Labour without hesitation. Even the bored morally questionable Labour government of 2005 was better than Mad Frankie Howard - and the Tories nullified Iraq as an issue by being in full support of it.
Leaders come and go. I am staying in my party, fighting harder than ever to be a voice for sanity fact and reason. I stepped off our CLP Exec to fight for a council seat knowing that we need sane Councillors (and my successor as Secretary is also sane).
What I am not going to do is flounce off from the Labour Party leaving it to die with the crazies. I'm not backing some splinter scab group which splits our vote and keeps a Tory government I find base level morally wrong in power. The way to defeat Corbynism is inside the party. Not gifting them the party and gifting the Tories the entire country.
Again, what is evil? To me Tory policies on the disabled are evil. On Adult social care. A generation facing worse prospects than I had including my 17 year old son. The gathering destruction of local government so that we hand his generation literally nothing but debt and broken services all whilst doubling the national debt. I despise racism. But there is petty racism everywhere and I don't see a huge difference in the Tories - its not news that petty racism exists there, its a selling point for Boris and Goldsmith et al. So why should I gift them power and let them destroy so many people's lives just to satisfy your definition of what you consider to be evil?
You're an idiot. A nice, sane, sensible idiot, but still an idiot. Corbyn is a full on Chavez style Venezuela socialist, and this kind of socialism always leads to the IMPOVERISHMENT of the poor. For proof, see, er, Venezuela.
Your people, the people you pretend to care about, will actually suffer under the Labour government you support.
Under, say, Thatcher, they prospered. And bought their own homes.
So you are also a bigot as well as an idiot. You have prejudices, and they reign supreme over your human logic. Well done.
I try my best...
People are suffering now. Allieviating their suffering and its cause will not make them suffer, it will stop them suffering. Its delusion to act like all is fine now - it's not.
I remember when we were told all this talk of mandatory reselection was nonsense scare mongering....it's going to happen isn't it. Bye bye all moderate MPs.
It looks like it. Yet I've no doubt there will be Labour supporters on here still claiming that it's not as bad as it looks. The moderates are way past the time they should have struck.
They did strike. Something like 80% of them struck with a no confidence vote. Their strike failed though and like Obi Wan only made him stronger.
Yes, but what I meant was "succeed" not "fail". Labour just doesn't seem to be as good at the dark arts of politics as the Tories are.
I remember when we were told all this talk of mandatory reselection was nonsense scare mongering....it's going to happen isn't it. Bye bye all moderate MPs.
It looks like it. Yet I've no doubt there will be Labour supporters on here still claiming that it's not as bad as it looks. The moderates are way past the time they should have struck.
It really is quite impressive how quickly he has managed to piss off pretty much everybody. Perhaps he needs to be caught having an affair, the French always seem to like that in a leader.
Wasn’t he having an affair with that bodyguard that liked beating up protesters?
Fed up trapped in insecure tenancies with dodgy landlords. Should they vote Tory because Jeremy Corbyn? Working all the hours God sends and still barely able to pay bills. Should they vote Tory because Jeremy Corbyn? The decimation of local government, the cuts to the NHS and Adult Social Care, driving the disabled to die in abject poverty - do none of these count because of anti-semitism?
Of will most voters continue to do as they do - vote on the issues that affect them. And not vote to make themselves continue to suffer just because a Tory tells them they are immoral.
You are conflating 2 questions:
(1) in a forced choice (for simplicity) between Corbyn’s Labour and the Tories how do you vote?
and
(2) should I, as an activist, work to get a anti-Semite to the position of PM or should I work to offer a decent, healthy alternative to the Tories?
I’m saddened by you @RochdalePioneers. I think you're a decent honourable man. But you are making the wrong choice and justifying evil
A somewhat over-inflated use of the word 'evil'! Always worth keeping something in the tank in case Charles Manson should happen to pass by
I believe Jeremy Corbyn is evil.
Why?
For me it was the whole Tunisian grave thing. Up to that point I was going with the idiot/fool thing. I still think he’s a passive anti-Semitist than an active one (to the extent that distinction matters) but he hangs out with active murderers who never recanted.
The difference with the PIRA is (as far as I know) he only met the leaders of Sinn Fein rather than active PIRA members. A fine distinction, I know, but I think he’s let his hatred for all things American lead him selves into very murky water.
Unfortunately it's not true that he met only 'Sinn Fein' members. The people he invited in to parliament, just two weeks after MPs saw their colleagues and wives murdered and maimed by the IRA in Brighton, were two convicted IRA terrorists (Linda Quigley and Gerard McLoughlin). It was a deliberate, and utterly vile, act by Corbyn. For that alone, leave aside anything else, he should be reviled by any decent person - and of course there's plenty else, such as his contempt of the victims of the Munich murders.
True...I was still in short trousers so I missed that...
(1) in a forced choice (for simplicity) between Corbyn’s Labour and the Tories how do you vote?
and
(2) should I, as an activist, work to get a anti-Semite to the position of PM or should I work to offer a decent, healthy alternative to the Tories?
I’m saddened by you @RochdalePioneers. I think you're a decent honourable man. But you are making the wrong choice and justifying evil
I can't do both? Given the choi power and let them destroy so many people's lives just to satisfy your definition of what you consider to be evil?
You're an idiot. A nice, sane, sensible idiot, but still an idiot. Corbyn is a full on Chavez style Venezuela socialist, and this kind of socialism always leads to the IMPOVERISHMENT of the poor. For proof, see, er, Venezuela.
Your people, the people you pretend to care about, will actually suffer under the Labour government you support.
Under, say, Thatcher, they prospered. And bought their own homes.
So you are also a bigot as well as an idiot. You have prejudices, and they reign supreme over your human logic. Well done.
I try my best...
People are suffering now. Allieviating their suffering and its cause will not make them suffer, it will stop them suffering. Its delusion to act like all is fine now - it's not.
Of course it's not fine. All life ends in death. Life is not "fine". But the best way to make finite human life better, in any particular nation, is free market capitalism, moderated by social democratic welfarism, with controlled borders and carefully managed race-blind migration, humanely welcoming the genuinely persecuted, plus the economically useful and clever, but sadly saying No Sorry to those who we don't economically need. And all this must be done in a democratic system where we can elect and reject ANYONE who makes the significant laws which govern us.
At the moment this is impossible in the EU. Because it is designed to be an elite, anti-democratic project, with no borders. It is also impossible under a Corbynite Labour government, which desires a no-borders Marxist fantasy-land, which will quickly go bust.
It saddens me that someone as clear headed as you is so bigoted you cannot see this.
Not so much bigoted as scared perhaps? The politics he has invested in for decades are dissolving - and there is nothing to take its place.
Very very few people get the opportunity to vote for what they want. For a candidate who is perfect. For a party offering a flawless manifesto. For a leader who inspires and becalms. Its all shades of grey. So regardless of the wazzocks surrounding Jeremy Corbyn people wanting a Labour government will still vote Labour. Because the alternative is a Tory government.
Fed up trapped in insecure tenancies e of these count because of anti-semitism?
Of will most voters continue to do as they do - vote on the issues that affect them. And not vote to make themselves continue to suffer just because a Tory tells them they are immoral.
You are conflating 2 questions:
(1) in a forced choice (for simplicity) between Corbyn’s Labour and the Tories how do you vote?
and
(2) should I, as an activist, work to get a anti-Semite to the position of PM or should I work to offer a decent, healthy alternative to the Tories?
I’m saddened by you @RochdalePioneers. I think you're a decent honourable man. But you are making the wrong choice and justifying evil
A somewhat over-inflated use of the words by
I believe Jeremy Corbyn is evil.
Why?
For me it was the wnto very murky water.
Unfortunately it'snich murders.
Like Charles, I was initially skeptical of Corbyn's racism, but I am now entirely convinced he is a full-on anti-Semite. That is to say: a real genuine racist. He dislikes most Jews, by definition, and hates the rest of them. You can see it in his modestly twisted rants. It is in the tone and the body language more than the words. And he has deliberately surrounded himself by people much worse than him.
Moreover, this weird antique upper middle class English anti-Semitism, epitomised by Corbyn (and his brother) (which I thought was extinct) has been vividly revived by the brute-force injection of radical Islamism, with which the Far Left avidly consorts, despite their world-views being utterly opposed (in theory).
It is an entirely toxic mix. Brexit seems like a mild diversion in comparison to the potential ghastliness of a Corbyn government, which would then inevitably enable a hard right reaction.
Dangerous times.
"Corbyn, because of his anti-Semitism, *IS* a right-winger. Discuss"
It is clear that jezza doesn't see anything he has done or said as remotely racist / antisemitic. Hence his eye rolling and his attempt to insert a cavaet into labours adoption of IHRA to allow one to call the formation of Israel as racist.
Mueller will accept written answers from Trump.....
The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, will accept written answers from President Trump on questions about whether his campaign conspired with Russia’s election interference, Mr. Mueller’s office told Mr. Trump’s lawyers in a letter, two people briefed on it said on Tuesday.
Mueller will accept written answers from Trump.....
The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, will accept written answers from President Trump on questions about whether his campaign conspired with Russia’s election interference, Mr. Mueller’s office told Mr. Trump’s lawyers in a letter, two people briefed on it said on Tuesday.
Mueller will accept written answers from Trump.....
The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, will accept written answers from President Trump on questions about whether his campaign conspired with Russia’s election interference, Mr. Mueller’s office told Mr. Trump’s lawyers in a letter, two people briefed on it said on Tuesday.
Very very few people get the opportunity to vote for what they want. For a candidate who is perfect. For a party offering a flawless manifesto. For a leader who inspires and becalms. Its all shades of grey. So regardless of the wazzocks surrounding Jeremy Corbyn people wanting a Labour government will still vote Labour. Because the alternative is a Tory government.
Fed up trapped in insecure tenancies e of these count because of anti-semitism?
Of will most voters continue to do as they do - vote on the issues that affect them. And not vote to make themselves continue to suffer just because a Tory tells them they are immoral.
You are conflating 2 questions:
(1) in a forced choice (for simplicity) between Corbyn’s Labour and the Tories how do you vote?
and
(2) should I, as an activist, work to get a anti-Semite to the position of PM or should I work to offer a decent, healthy alternative to the Tories?
I’m saddened by you @RochdalePioneers. I think you're a decent honourable man. But you are making the wrong choice and justifying evil
A somewhat over-inflated use of the words by
I believe Jeremy Corbyn is evil.
Why?
For me it was the wnto very murky water.
Unfortunately it'snich murders.
Like Charles, I was initially skeptical of Corbyn's racism, but I am now entirely convinced he is a full-on anti-Semite. That is to say: a real genuine racist. He dislikes most Jews, by definition, and hates the rest of them. You can see it in his modestly twisted rants. It is in the tone and the body language more than the words. And he has deliberately surrounded himself by people much worse than him.
Moreover, this weird antique upper middle class English anti-Semitism, epitomised by Corbyn (and his brother) (which I thought was extinct) has been vividly revived by the brute-force injection of radical Islamism, with which the Far Left avidly consorts, despite their world-views being utterly opposed (in theory).
It is an entirely toxic mix. Brexit seems like a mild diversion in comparison to the potential ghastliness of a Corbyn government, which would then inevitably enable a hard right reaction.
Dangerous times.
"Corbyn, because of his anti-Semitism, *IS* a right-winger. Discuss"
Grow up Sunil. This is too important for trite bollocks
Very very few people get the opportunity to vote for what they want. For a candidate who is perfect. For a party offering a flawless manifesto. For a leader who inspires and becalms. Its all shades of grey. So regardless of the wazzocks surrounding Jeremy Corbyn people wanting a Labour government will still vote Labour. Because the alternative is a Tory government.
Fed up trapped in insecure tenancies e of these count because of anti-semitism?
Of will most voters continue to do as they do - vote on the issues that affect them. And not vote to make themselves continue to suffer just because a Tory tells them they are immoral.
You are conflating 2 questions:
(1) in a forced choice (for simplicity) between Corbyn’s Labour and the Tories how do you vote?
and
(2) should I, as an activist, work to get a anti-Semite to the position of PM or should I work to offer a decent, healthy alternative to the Tories?
I’m saddened by you @RochdalePioneers. I think you're a decent honourable man. But you are making the wrong choice and justifying evil
A somewhat over-inflated use of the words by
I believe Jeremy Corbyn is evil.
Why?
For me it was the wnto very murky water.
Unfortunately it'snich murders.
Like Charles, I was initially skeptical of Corbyn's racism, but I am now entirely convinced he is a full-on anti-Semite. That is to say: a real genuine racist. He dislikes most Jews, by definition, and hates the rest of them. You can see it in his modestly twisted rants. It is in the tone and the body language more than the words. And he has deliberately surrounded himself by people much worse than him.
Moreover, this weird antique upper middle class English anti-Semitism, epitomised by Corbyn (and his brother) (which I thought was extinct) has been vividly revived by the brute-force injection of radical Islamism, with which the Far Left avidly consorts, despite their world-views being utterly opposed (in theory).
It is an entirely toxic mix. Brexit seems like a mild diversion in comparison to the potential ghastliness of a Corbyn government, which would then inevitably enable a hard right reaction.
Dangerous times.
"Corbyn, because of his anti-Semitism, *IS* a right-winger. Discuss"
Grow up Sunil. This is too important for trite bollocks
It's interesting how apparently the twin problems of diet are (a) too many overweight and obese people, and (b) a lot of people can't afford healthy food. This might make sense if fruit and vegetables were very expensive... but they aren't. Apples and bananas are very cheap for instance, less expensive than chocolates.
Moreover, there was no declaration of war by Blair in 2003 - many view it as a massive terrorist operation ordered by a pair of criminals.
Doesn't matter: this isn't the US. The orders were legal and Parliament debated and approved the war.
So as long as A Hitler got the Reichstag to approve his invasions of Poland and the USSR after an extended debate there was little to be said in condemnation.!
It's interesting how apparently the twin problems of diet are (a) too many overweight and obese people, and (b) a lot of people can't afford healthy food. This might make sense if fruit and vegetables were very expensive... but they aren't. Apples and bananas are very cheap for instance, less expensive than chocolates.
Don't forget that people are time poor as well (or at least have other priorities vs shopping and cooking). Processed food is cheap, convenient and unhealthy.
It's interesting how apparently the twin problems of diet are (a) too many overweight and obese people, and (b) a lot of people can't afford healthy food. This might make sense if fruit and vegetables were very expensive... but they aren't. Apples and bananas are very cheap for instance, less expensive than chocolates.
Don't forget that people are time poor as well (or at least have other priorities vs shopping and cooking). Processed food is cheap, convenient and unhealthy.
Buying fruit to eat is less time consuming that buying a processed meal and then putting it in the microwave.
Please could Welby concentrate on the day job, it is not as if the Church of England is a state of perfect nirvana and leave the politics to the politicians.
Even if he may have a point on Amazon, Starbucks and online bullying most people do not want to see a huge hike in inheritance tax to fund a handout to youth which will soon disappear anyway
I am interested in which organisations you think constitutes the MSM. Does it include the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times, all of whom hardly gave Corbyn a free pass in GE2017?
Media in this country = BBC. Most people get their news from the BBC news or website. The BBC did not really give Corbyn a hard time, and in fact gave lot of positive press as he performed better than the low expectations
So what makes you or @NorthofStoke think it will be different next time?
I’ve said this before but my belief is that politics is reactionary. Sometimes within parties (Corbyn, or Boris / Mogg being popular with Party member), and sometimes without parties, I.e narratives of momentum for a Corbyn from low base, he didn’t do much better on seats than Milliband. Sometimes it is both such as campaigning after the terrorist attacks.
Last time the narrative for the election was give May a mega majority so she can implement Brexit properly. Now to support that you support May, no other option, but if you oppose the reaction is to support Corbyn. He isn’t going to be prime minister. May aligned the left wing Corbynites, and other assorted left groups such as ex Libdems, respect, green and socialist voters, and Brexit supporters to vote against her by voting for Corbyn. At the same time she alienated her own base with poorly thought out plans for social care so her likely to support score came down.
What will the reaction be next time. Well hopefully they will sort out a Brexit deal - I’m sick of it, Corbyn will be scrutinised by BBC Et al as possible PM not affable opposition leader. I would expect the Tories to put more work in next time to properly draft and review manifesto. I would expect a slight improvement in Conservative vote, and a slight reduction in labour vote, a 5 to 8 point lead for the Tories. No recovery for Libdems - unfortunately VC is yesterday’s man. They need a dogged and competent media performer.
Please could Welby concentrate on the day job, it is not as if the Church of England is a state of perfect nirvana and leave the politics to the politicians.
Even if he may have a point on Amazon, Starbucks and online bullying most people do not want to see a huge hike in inheritance tax to fund a handout to youth which will soon disappear anyway
It's interesting how apparently the twin problems of diet are (a) too many overweight and obese people, and (b) a lot of people can't afford healthy food. This might make sense if fruit and vegetables were very expensive... but they aren't. Apples and bananas are very cheap for instance, less expensive than chocolates.
Don't forget that people are time poor as well (or at least have other priorities vs shopping and cooking). Processed food is cheap, convenient and unhealthy.
Buying fruit to eat is less time consuming that buying a processed meal and then putting it in the microwave.
You can't live on fruit, it doesn't have the nutrient density, unless you eat about 5 kg of bananas or breadfruit a day and don't mind the sheer inconvenience of the bulk throughput plus a whole host of deficiency diseases.
Unrelatedly, I hate to teach Welby his job, but Matthew 22:15-22.
Very very few people get the opportunity to vote for what they want. For a candidate who is perfect. For a party offering a flawless manifesto. For a leader who inspires and becalms. Its all shades of grey. So regardless of the wazzocks surrounding Jeremy Corbyn people wanting a Labour government will still vote Labour. Because the alternative is a Tory government.
Fed up trapped in insecure tenancies e of these count because of anti-semitism?
Of will most voters continue to do as they do - vote on the issues that affect them. And not vote to make themselves continue to suffer just because a Tory tells them they are immoral.
You are conflating 2 questions:
(1) in a forced choice (for simplicity) between Corbyn’s Labour and the Tories how do you vote?
and
(2) should I, as an activist, work to get a anti-Semite to the position of PM or should I work to offer a decent, healthy alternative to the Tories?
I’m saddened by you @RochdalePioneers. I think you're a decent honourable man. But you are making the wrong choice and justifying evil
A somewhat over-inflated use of the words by
I believe Jeremy Corbyn is evil.
Why?
For me it was the wnto very murky water.
Unfortunately it'snich murders.
Like Charles, I was initially skeptical of Corbyn's racism, but I am now entirely convinced he is a full-on anti-Semite. That is to say: a real genuine racist. He dislikes most Jews, by definition, and hates the rest of them. You can see it in his modestly twisted rants. It is in the tone and the body language more than the words. And he has deliberately surrounded himself by people much worse than him.
Moreover, this weird antique upper middle class English anti-Semitism, epitomised by Corbyn (and his brother) (which I thought was extinct) has been vividly revived by the brute-force injection of radical Islamism, with which the Far Left avidly consorts, despite their world-views being utterly opposed (in theory).
It is an entirely toxic mix. Brexit seems like a mild diversion in comparison to the potential ghastliness of a Corbyn government, which would then inevitably enable a hard right reaction.
Dangerous times.
"Corbyn, because of his anti-Semitism, *IS* a right-winger. Discuss"
Totalitarianism and autoritarianism are bothembraced by both the extreme right wing and the extreme left wing.
Momentum want MPs to be their delegates not constituency representatives so MPs can only vote the way their Monmentum members want even though MPs are primarily elected by non members.
Momentum want MPs to be their delegates not constituency representatives so MPs can only vote the way their Monmentum members want even though MPs are primarily elected by non members.
Labour members want Labour candidates who represent Labour values, the general public are free to vote for whoever they want.
John Woodcock for example who would actively prefer a Tory government, good for him, I believe he should express his opinion. However people should have the opportunity to vote for a Labour MP who wants a Labour government over a Tory one, I fully support Woodcocks right to stand as well if he wishes so people have the opportunity to vote for what he represents as well if they want.
Now Woodcock has actually already gone, but he does represent a strain of thinking among a small number and only fully opened up on this opinion after he had left.
Hoey, Field and the others recently were in trouble because they lost a lot more than just Momentum, Hoey didn't get a single vote in her favour.
From my point of view, neither Corbyn nor the Labour Right have offered a single interesting new idea. It's all a rehash of stuff from the past, and that includes popular stuff like railway nationalisation. It's one of the most disappointing aspects of Corbynism.
Blairs ideas might be old today and not all of them worked, but at least he tried something new and future looking at the time. We need to recapture that spirit.
I think there is plenty of innovation in Labour's manifesto actually, with much of it using European examples, it just didn't quite grab the headlines in the same way that other things did.
The land value tax (although only a commitment to consider at this stage) is I think potentially an enormously transformative innovation. The national investment bank/regional development banks, based on Nordic examples, I think is a great innovation to meet gaps in lending in the private sector and shift towards SMEs/strategic sectors and away from mortgages.
In their last manifesto - Labour proposed shifting the burden of proof so that employers have to demonstrate that workers are not employees, rather than the other way around. A decent start on a complicated issue.
It's interesting how apparently the twin problems of diet are (a) too many overweight and obese people, and (b) a lot of people can't afford healthy food. This might make sense if fruit and vegetables were very expensive... but they aren't. Apples and bananas are very cheap for instance, less expensive than chocolates.
Cost also includes availability, storage and preparation. Cheap processed foods are a lot less costly in these respects - 'cost' including time, knowledge organisation, as well as cash - than cheap fresh foods.
Comments
People are suffering now. Allieviating their suffering and its cause will not make them suffer, it will stop them suffering. Its delusion to act like all is fine now - it's not.
The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, will accept written answers from President Trump on questions about whether his campaign conspired with Russia’s election interference, Mr. Mueller’s office told Mr. Trump’s lawyers in a letter, two people briefed on it said on Tuesday.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/us/politics/mueller-trump-russia-investigation.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Even if he may have a point on Amazon, Starbucks and online bullying most people do not want to see a huge hike in inheritance tax to fund a handout to youth which will soon disappear anyway
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/survivor-launches-scathing-attack-on-emily-thornberry-over-anti-semitism/
Bob Woodward's book on Trump: The most explosive quotes
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45415151
Fine line...
“We assume that Britain will be a third country and a very intensive trade deal would be the basis of our future relations.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-i-cant-rule-out-brexit-talks-breakdown
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6132427/Elon-Musk-accuses-British-cave-diver-moving-Thailand-child-bride.html
The "Child bride" is in fact 40, (and a girlfriend) - having a 23 year age gap makes you a 'paedo', but a 16 year age gap is totally cool:
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/celebrity/latest/a20525062/who-is-grimes-elon-musk-girlfriend/
Unrelatedly, I hate to teach Welby his job, but Matthew 22:15-22.
Totalitarianism and autoritarianism are bothembraced by both the extreme right wing and the extreme left wing.
John Woodcock for example who would actively prefer a Tory government, good for him, I believe he should express his opinion. However people should have the opportunity to vote for a Labour MP who wants a Labour government over a Tory one, I fully support Woodcocks right to stand as well if he wishes so people have the opportunity to vote for what he represents as well if they want.
Now Woodcock has actually already gone, but he does represent a strain of thinking among a small number and only fully opened up on this opinion after he had left.
Hoey, Field and the others recently were in trouble because they lost a lot more than just Momentum, Hoey didn't get a single vote in her favour.
The land value tax (although only a commitment to consider at this stage) is I think potentially an enormously transformative innovation. The national investment bank/regional development banks, based on Nordic examples, I think is a great innovation to meet gaps in lending in the private sector and shift towards SMEs/strategic sectors and away from mortgages.
In their last manifesto - Labour proposed shifting the burden of proof so that employers have to demonstrate that workers are not employees, rather than the other way around. A decent start on a complicated issue.
Labour policy for a national educational service from cradle to grave with a big commitment to free adult education. Also the publicly-owned energy cooperatives Labour is talking about look very much likely adopting this innovation from Germany and Denmark:
https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2015/oct/02/energy-cooperatives-uk-germany-denmark-community
Cheap processed foods are a lot less costly in these respects - 'cost' including time, knowledge organisation, as well as cash - than cheap fresh foods.