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  • You really do have to be quite spectacularly naive to think that Boris Johnson, of all people on this earth, with his famous attention to detail and in view of the great respect he is held in by European leaders, would somehow be able to get a deal which eluded the team which included, err, Boris Johnson.

    In the abstract, it would be amusing to see him try, in the same sense that in the abstract it would be amusing to see John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn running the economy.

    :lol:

    But he is this generation's Churchill, so surely he would get a better deal?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Scott_P said:
    I'm lost. Why are they bothered? Cheques is dead, as Barnier has said several times in different ways.
    I suspect our of fear that fetishising the deal might lead to more compromise.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    edited September 2018
    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited September 2018
    PeterC said:

    nielh said:

    If the EU is rejecting Chequers then what's the frigging point of May?

    Why should it take Lynton Crosby and Boris to kill a deal that's already dead. How long is May going to carry on with the pretence that Chequers is agreed when it isn't? It's a Dead Parrot and it's time for May to shuffle off.

    She's clearly playing a three dimensional chess game of some kind, but what?
    Three dimensions - mislead, concede and deceive.
    You do know you are in a substantial Parliamentary minority for your hard Brexit

    Indeed push too hard and Norway will be the best you get, and indeed we may even ending up staying
    I think we are back in the to territory of hard brexit happening by default.
    I really hope not
    THe Boles plan is potentially much more Brexity. The idea is to exit from Article 50 straight into EFTA which will maintain the EEA Agreement in tact. In a stroke deadlines, cliff edges, the wretched Irish backstop, the CAP and the CFP are all gone giving the opportunity to negotiate into a FTA as circumstances dictate.

    http://betterbrexit.org.uk/

    If Chequers crashes this where we will be going, I suspect. It would of course be a humiliation for TM.
    I think this site is meant as a joke, no? For example:

    "Stay out of Schengen open borders regime and bring back British passports"
  • Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Let’s see what that margin is when they realise they’ll have to pay €50 to see a GP.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015
    edited September 2018
    Time for Tessy to decide how precious her precious, precious Union is.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
  • Top thread:

    twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1036362813776818176

    twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1036364807681835008

    twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1036367763537895425

    By similar reasoning Jimmy Savile couldn't be an evil man as he raised millions for charity.
  • Top thread:

    twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1036362813776818176

    twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1036364807681835008

    twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1036367763537895425

    By similar reasoning Jimmy Savile couldn't be an evil man as he raised millions for charity.
    Not quite, after all Jimmy Savile did raise millions for charity.
  • Cyclefree said:

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
    Labour Party agent?
  • Labour have literally spent the whole summer arguing over IHRA.

    How in God's name are they still on 37-40%?
  • And so we go into chaotic overdrive with Brexit battles intensifying and Corbyn and his cabal in real danger of blowing labour apart

    So time to relax and turn off the light

    Hope everyone has a peaceful night's rest

    Good night folks
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited September 2018

    Labour have literally spent the whole summer arguing over IHRA.

    How in God's name are they still on 37-40%?

    Because unfortunately most people don't take any notice what is going on in politics. 90% won't even have a clue what the IHRA is and even more clued up see a tweet saying Labour have adopted it (minus the crucial examples) and move on.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015
    edited September 2018
    RoyalBlue said:

    Let’s see what that margin is when they realise they’ll have to pay €50 to see a GP.
    Folk who tend to think of the NHS as a failing, bad value for money quasi religion but also think it's a reason that the Norn Irish should hang onto the UK are currently my favourite Brexit folk.
  • Cyclefree said:

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
    Labour Party agent?
    Apparently, according to wikipedia, he was briefly a Geography teacher on VSO.

    I had always though the jokes about him looking like a clapped out, 1970s geography teacher, in a particularly tough comp, were just that .... a joke.
  • Cyclefree said:

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
    Tory sleeper agent?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited September 2018

    Cyclefree said:

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
    Labour Party agent?
    Apparently, according to wikipedia, he was briefly a Geography teacher on VSO.

    I had always though the jokes about him looking like a clapped out, 1970s geography teacher, in a particularly tough comp, were just that .... a joke.
    How did somebody who failed their A-Levels get a job teaching (even volunteering)...what were the requirements? Can you point to your home country on a map?
  • Time for Tessy to decide how precious her precious, precious Union is.
    Er, precious.

    She is not going to go down in history as uniting Ireland.

    That's Jezza's job :smiley:
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    If the EU is rejecting Chequers then what's the frigging point of May?

    Why should it take Lynton Crosby and Boris to kill a deal that's already dead. How long is May going to carry on with the pretence that Chequers is agreed when it isn't? It's a Dead Parrot and it's time for May to shuffle off.

    She's clearly playing a three dimensional chess game of some kind, but what?
    Three dimensions - mislead, concede and deceive.
    You do know you are in a substantial Parliamentary minority for your hard Brexit

    Indeed push too hard and Norway will be the best you get, and indeed we may even ending up staying
    Norway would be better than May's Chequers.
    I hold no firm and fast opinion on this but I can see TM doing a deal, but whether it is Chequers or not, I am very relaxed about it
    Any fool could agree a deal if all they do is sign whatever Barnier tells them to sign. That's like saying Washington could have got a deal with George III.

    Can we get a good deal? That's the question.
    That was the one we voted against, so not really.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015
    edited September 2018

    Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    At least one shenanigan has been ruled out.
    https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/1036366844649779200
  • Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    At least one shenanigan has been ruled out.
    Oh dear.
    https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/1036370904815726592
  • Cyclefree said:

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
    Labour Party agent?
    Apparently, according to wikipedia, he was briefly a Geography teacher on VSO.

    I had always though the jokes about him looking like a clapped out, 1970s geography teacher, in a particularly tough comp, were just that .... a joke.
    How did somebody who failed their A-Levels get a job teaching (even volunteering)...what were the requirements? Can you point to your home country on a map?
    To be fair, for once, to Magic Grandpa, he got two grade 'E's.

    Probably sufficient given enough enthusiasm to teach VSO.

    After all that's two 'B's under the modern system :smiley:
  • Cyclefree said:

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
    Tory sleeper agent?
    Could well backfire.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    I smell it too. However, I am far from confident that Northern Ireland wouldn't vote for union with the RoI and that Scotland would reject independence. Particularly the latter. Who will argue for union the second time round? We are in union with a corpse thanks to Brexit. The corpse doesn't care about who it is in union withe either.
  • Labour have literally spent the whole summer arguing over IHRA.

    How in God's name are they still on 37-40%?

    Because unfortunately most people don't take any notice what is going on in politics. 90% won't even have a clue what the IHRA is and even more clued up see a tweet saying Labour have adopted it (minus the crucial examples) and move on.
    True. I didn't know what the IHRA was until last month.

    But they may have noticed that Labour have said nothing all summer on anything that connects with their daily lives.
  • Cyclefree said:

    These people will eat themselves (Mr Green that is):

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1036281481495240705

    And Corbyn’s real job was what, exactly?
    Labour Party agent?
    Apparently, according to wikipedia, he was briefly a Geography teacher on VSO.

    I had always though the jokes about him looking like a clapped out, 1970s geography teacher, in a particularly tough comp, were just that .... a joke.
    How did somebody who failed their A-Levels get a job teaching (even volunteering)...what were the requirements? Can you point to your home country on a map?
    To be fair, for once, to Magic Grandpa, he got two grade 'E's.

    Probably sufficient given enough enthusiasm to teach VSO.

    After all that's two 'B's under the modern system :smiley:
    By the standards of the school he went to, two E's is a failure ;-) I can't imagine there are many other alumni who have done so badly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Yet another biased pro EU 'Best for Britain' poll, including don't knows it is actually only 47% Yes on independence even if Brexit goes ahead
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    I do wonder exactly what the evidence is for the claim that Corbyn has fought racism all his life.

    What has he actually done? Has he set up any organization or raised money? Any legislation he has promoted? Any particular campaigns he has been responsible for? Or achievements to his name?

    We know about his support for the Palestinian cause. And for violent Irish nationalism. But on the anti-racism front, what has he done? Am genuinely curious.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018
    Again another biased, loaded pro EU Best for Britain poll and as I have consistently pointed out Protestants in Northern Ireland voted to Leave the EU and will never accept being part of the Republic of Ireland
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited September 2018
    Around a third of leading machine learning and AI specialists who have left the UK’s top institutions are currently working at Silicon Valley tech firms.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/09/02/britain-faces-artificial-intelligence-brain-drain/

    This is quite worrying e.g. About 18 months ago Amazon literally bought up a whole research group Sheffield University who specialize in a particular niche area of ML.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    FF43 said:

    Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    I smell it too. However, I am far from confident that Northern Ireland wouldn't vote for union with the RoI and that Scotland would reject independence. Particularly the latter. Who will argue for union the second time round? We are in union with a corpse thanks to Brexit. The corpse doesn't care about who it is in union withe either.
    In a Richard Nabavi sense of the word it would be amusing if the "United" Kingdom lost Scotland but kept Northern Ireland including backstop.
  • Cyclefree said:

    I do wonder exactly what the evidence is for the claim that Corbyn has fought racism all his life.

    What has he actually done? Has he set up any organization or raised money? Any legislation he has promoted? Any particular campaigns he has been responsible for? Or achievements to his name?

    We know about his support for the Palestinian cause. And for violent Irish nationalism. But on the anti-racism front, what has he done? Am genuinely curious.
    Corbyn's idea of fighting anything is to attend a meeting about it and give a short speech. Or perhaps hold a banner. He must hold the world record for protest meetings attended.

    Nothing wrong in that in itself. Better to make a protest than do nothing.

    But, this is one of the fundamental reasons imho he is unfit to be PM. Even if you agreed with all his views and ideas and points of principle, he is not equipped to actually run a government or legislate. He would have no idea.

    I suspect McD will run the government, whilst Jezza continues to attend rallies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    Around a third of leading machine learning and AI specialists who have left the UK’s top institutions are currently working at Silicon Valley tech firms.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/09/02/britain-faces-artificial-intelligence-brain-drain/

    This is quite worrying e.g. About 18 months ago Amazon literally bought up a whole research group Sheffield University who specialize in a particular niche area of ML.

    Depends if AI creates new jobs or just destroys existing ones
  • Cyclefree said:

    I do wonder exactly what the evidence is for the claim that Corbyn has fought racism all his life.

    What has he actually done? Has he set up any organization or raised money? Any legislation he has promoted? Any particular campaigns he has been responsible for? Or achievements to his name?

    We know about his support for the Palestinian cause. And for violent Irish nationalism. But on the anti-racism front, what has he done? Am genuinely curious.
    Corbyn's idea of fighting anything is to attend a meeting about it and give a short speech. Or perhaps hold a banner. He must hold the world record for protest meetings attended.

    Nothing wrong in that in itself. Better to make a protest than do nothing.

    But, this is one of the fundamental reasons imho he is unfit to be PM. Even if you agreed with all his views and ideas and points of principle, he is not equipped to actually run a government or legislate. He would have no idea.

    I suspect McD will run the government, whilst Jezza continues to attend rallies.
    Hey hey be fair....he also signed a million early day motions...many of which were totally bonkers.
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    I smell it too. However, I am far from confident that Northern Ireland wouldn't vote for union with the RoI and that Scotland would reject independence. Particularly the latter. Who will argue for union the second time round? We are in union with a corpse thanks to Brexit. The corpse doesn't care about who it is in union withe either.
    In a Richard Nabavi sense of the word it would be amusing if the "United" Kingdom lost Scotland but kept Northern Ireland including backstop.
    Perhaps they should poll Northern Irish unionists on which bit of Great Britain they would prefer to remain united with.
  • Around a third of leading machine learning and AI specialists who have left the UK’s top institutions are currently working at Silicon Valley tech firms.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/09/02/britain-faces-artificial-intelligence-brain-drain/

    This is quite worrying e.g. About 18 months ago Amazon literally bought up a whole research group Sheffield University who specialize in a particular niche area of ML.

    One solution would be to start giving post-doc researchers some kind of job security.

    1 - 3 year contracts are the norm.
  • Cyclefree said:

    I do wonder exactly what the evidence is for the claim that Corbyn has fought racism all his life.

    What has he actually done? Has he set up any organization or raised money? Any legislation he has promoted? Any particular campaigns he has been responsible for? Or achievements to his name?

    We know about his support for the Palestinian cause. And for violent Irish nationalism. But on the anti-racism front, what has he done? Am genuinely curious.
    Corbyn's idea of fighting anything is to attend a meeting about it and give a short speech. Or perhaps hold a banner. He must hold the world record for protest meetings attended.

    Nothing wrong in that in itself. Better to make a protest than do nothing.

    But, this is one of the fundamental reasons imho he is unfit to be PM. Even if you agreed with all his views and ideas and points of principle, he is not equipped to actually run a government or legislate. He would have no idea.

    I suspect McD will run the government, whilst Jezza continues to attend rallies.
    Hey hey be fair....he also signed a million early day motions...many of which were totally bonkers.
    No doubt OrderOrder are going through them all, line by line.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited September 2018

    Around a third of leading machine learning and AI specialists who have left the UK’s top institutions are currently working at Silicon Valley tech firms.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/09/02/britain-faces-artificial-intelligence-brain-drain/

    This is quite worrying e.g. About 18 months ago Amazon literally bought up a whole research group Sheffield University who specialize in a particular niche area of ML.

    One solution would be to start giving post-doc researchers some kind of job security.

    1 - 3 year contracts are the norm.
    In the current climate, I am not sure it would make much difference. The money on offer if you have the particular skills the likes of Amazon are looking for is crazy. I know for instance with the example I gave, the group had very specific expertise, which for an undisclosed reason Amazon wanted to acquire, and they just hoovered up the lot, academics, post-docs, PhDs.

    Last year I spoke with another academic who had the same kind of experience with Google. They hired him, all his post-docs and PhDs and moved them all to Switzerland on big bucks. I asked him how did they expect the PhDs to complete, and he basically said they give them time to work on their studies, fly them to the UK when required etc. They know in a year or two they will have yet more highly skilled individuals inside the tent.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    FF43 said:

    Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    I smell it too. However, I am far from confident that Northern Ireland wouldn't vote for union with the RoI and that Scotland would reject independence. Particularly the latter. Who will argue for union the second time round? We are in union with a corpse thanks to Brexit. The corpse doesn't care about who it is in union withe either.
    If England is a corpse, what does that make Scotland?
  • And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
  • Around a third of leading machine learning and AI specialists who have left the UK’s top institutions are currently working at Silicon Valley tech firms.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/09/02/britain-faces-artificial-intelligence-brain-drain/

    This is quite worrying e.g. About 18 months ago Amazon literally bought up a whole research group Sheffield University who specialize in a particular niche area of ML.

    One solution would be to start giving post-doc researchers some kind of job security.

    1 - 3 year contracts are the norm.
    Older pbers will recall SeanT decrying Osborne's cuts to research while China was investing massively.
  • Around a third of leading machine learning and AI specialists who have left the UK’s top institutions are currently working at Silicon Valley tech firms.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/09/02/britain-faces-artificial-intelligence-brain-drain/

    This is quite worrying e.g. About 18 months ago Amazon literally bought up a whole research group Sheffield University who specialize in a particular niche area of ML.

    One solution would be to start giving post-doc researchers some kind of job security.

    1 - 3 year contracts are the norm.
    Older pbers will recall SeanT decrying Osborne's cuts to research while China was investing massively.
    Did he? I mean Osborne? I thought that was one of the few things they protected. Stand ready to be corrected.
  • And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
    My point was that your average worker in the rust belt worrying about if his job at the Ford factory is going to go hears about leading figures in democratic party arguing over this. I am not sure their response would be suitable for a family friendly website like this.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited September 2018

    Around a third of leading machine learning and AI specialists who have left the UK’s top institutions are currently working at Silicon Valley tech firms.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/09/02/britain-faces-artificial-intelligence-brain-drain/

    This is quite worrying e.g. About 18 months ago Amazon literally bought up a whole research group Sheffield University who specialize in a particular niche area of ML.

    One solution would be to start giving post-doc researchers some kind of job security.

    1 - 3 year contracts are the norm.
    Older pbers will recall SeanT decrying Osborne's cuts to research while China was investing massively.
    The problem isn't if there is or isn't money in universities for ML, there is and a lot of interesting work is ongoing.

    The problem is that the likes of Google, Facebook and Amazon will easily pay 5x their salary and obviously start-ups offer the opportunity to get in on the ground floor of a potential billion dollar business. Microsoft have lost some top talent as well to the big 3 and well funded start-ups.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    RoyalBlue said:

    FF43 said:

    Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    I smell it too. However, I am far from confident that Northern Ireland wouldn't vote for union with the RoI and that Scotland would reject independence. Particularly the latter. Who will argue for union the second time round? We are in union with a corpse thanks to Brexit. The corpse doesn't care about who it is in union withe either.
    If England is a corpse, what does that make Scotland?
    England just beat India today, the second most populous nation on the planet. I am sure England will be fine regardless
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2018
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1036239136926171136

    Gordon's little speech. Some hilariously moronic comments underneath. He is both a Blairite and a Tory.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    FF43 said:

    Lol but we'd need to see the detail, this poll smells of shenanigans.
    I smell it too. However, I am far from confident that Northern Ireland wouldn't vote for union with the RoI and that Scotland would reject independence. Particularly the latter. Who will argue for union the second time round? We are in union with a corpse thanks to Brexit. The corpse doesn't care about who it is in union withe either.
    If England is a corpse, what does that make Scotland?
    England just beat India today, the second most populous nation on the planet. I am sure England will be fine regardless
    Unspoofable.
  • And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
    My point was that your average worker in the rust belt worrying about if his job at the Ford factory is going to go hears about leading figures in democratic party arguing over this. I am not sure their response would be suitable for a family friendly website like this.
    Mark Lilla, new book: "The Once and Future Liberal"

    Not sure he would use this precise example, but probably he would argue it is of a piece with the identity politics of the Dems that has turned millions off from them.

    Start talking about shared citizenship and how we can improve the living standards of ordinary folks and stop banging on about all our minute differences would be his message I think (I paraphrase).
  • If you want another example of how bonkers the market for "ML" based stuff is,

    https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/03/amazon-has-acquired-3d-body-model-startup-body-labs-for-50m-70m/

    $70 million for a company that had no revenue generating product, but a really interesting data set and skilled staffed many of which came through a particular MPI group with specalist skills in using ML to learn a generalized body model.

    Kinda of hard for academic institutions to compete with that.
  • Anorak said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1036239136926171136

    Gordon's little speech. Some hilariously moronic comments underneath. He is both a Blairite and a Tory.

    There's no difference according to the Left. Indeed, Blairite is worse than Tory.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
    24c in a debating room? How is that anyone's definition of room temperature??
  • And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
    My point was that your average worker in the rust belt worrying about if his job at the Ford factory is going to go hears about leading figures in democratic party arguing over this. I am not sure their response would be suitable for a family friendly website like this.
    Mark Lilla, new book: "The Once and Future Liberal"

    Not sure he would use this precise example, but probably he would argue it is of a piece with the identity politics of the Dems that has turned millions off from them.

    Start talking about shared citizenship and how we can improve the living standards of ordinary folks and stop banging on about all our minute differences would be his message I think (I paraphrase).
    As I posted earlier today, there is a huge vacuum in the likes of US and UK politics. How to deal with the future challenges, especially ever increasingly automation, including the next wave thanks to Machine Learning that will eat up lots of middle class paper pushing jobs.

    What we have is either the likes of Bernie Sanders / Corbyn saying what we really need to do is try socialism, but do it properly this time...or the likes of the Tories (and Hilary Clinton in 2016) who just don't seem to have any ideas other than to say keep calm and carry on.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Margaret Hodge has effectively suggested the only way Labour’s difficulties over antisemitism would come to an end would be if Jeremy Corbyn were no longer the leader of the party.

    Well at least they are being a bit more honest about their intentions now I guess. Happy to have another leadership contest if they want.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Margaret Hodge has effectively suggested the only way Labour’s difficulties over antisemitism would come to an end would be if Jeremy Corbyn were no longer the leader of the party.

    Well at least they are being a bit more honest about their intentions now I guess. Happy to have another leadership contest if they want.
    You think Hodge is vying for the leadership?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Attendees at a Farage talk in Australia heckled with 'Nazi evil off our streets.'

    Inside Farage praises Pauline Hanson, Donald Trump and Tommy Robinson bit warms of the need to tsrget Islamism rather than the religion of Islam. He calls says May is the worst ever British PM

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/02/nigel-farage-fans-heckled-outside-event-perth-australia
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Also in Australia Steve Bannon calls ousted ex PM Turnbull an appeaser of China and says Australia is ripe for a working class revolt against the globalist, liberal elite

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-03/steve-bannon-says-china-is-at-economic-war-with-west/10174604
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
    My point was that your average worker in the rust belt worrying about if his job at the Ford factory is going to go hears about leading figures in democratic party arguing over this. I am not sure their response would be suitable for a family friendly website like this.
    Mark Lilla, new book: "The Once and Future Liberal"

    Not sure he would use this precise example, but probably he would argue it is of a piece with the identity politics of the Dems that has turned millions off from them.

    Start talking about shared citizenship and how we can improve the living standards of ordinary folks and stop banging on about all our minute differences would be his message I think (I paraphrase).
    As I posted earlier today, there is a huge vacuum in the likes of US and UK politics. How to deal with the future challenges, especially ever increasingly automation, including the next wave thanks to Machine Learning that will eat up lots of middle class paper pushing jobs.

    What we have is either the likes of Bernie Sanders / Corbyn saying what we really need to do is try socialism, but do it properly this time...or the likes of the Tories (and Hilary Clinton in 2016) who just don't seem to have any ideas other than to say keep calm and carry on.
    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots
  • HYUFD said:

    And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
    My point was that your average worker in the rust belt worrying about if his job at the Ford factory is going to go hears about leading figures in democratic party arguing over this. I am not sure their response would be suitable for a family friendly website like this.
    Mark Lilla, new book: "The Once and Future Liberal"

    Not sure he would use this precise example, but probably he would argue it is of a piece with the identity politics of the Dems that has turned millions off from them.

    Start talking about shared citizenship and how we can improve the living standards of ordinary folks and stop banging on about all our minute differences would be his message I think (I paraphrase).
    As I posted earlier today, there is a huge vacuum in the likes of US and UK politics. How to deal with the future challenges, especially ever increasingly automation, including the next wave thanks to Machine Learning that will eat up lots of middle class paper pushing jobs.

    What we have is either the likes of Bernie Sanders / Corbyn saying what we really need to do is try socialism, but do it properly this time...or the likes of the Tories (and Hilary Clinton in 2016) who just don't seem to have any ideas other than to say keep calm and carry on.
    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots
    I am confident that in the long term things will be ok, but the short term upheaval will not be pretty when lots of middle class folk find a computer has replaced their skilled professional position in the same way as skilled manual labour have had to deal with similar revolution over the past 20 years.

    I really wouldn't want to be 30 year old doing a low / mid level job that revolves around doing some basic analytical work, as ML techniques can do it better than you especially if overseen by 1-2 humans.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    RobD said:

    Margaret Hodge has effectively suggested the only way Labour’s difficulties over antisemitism would come to an end would be if Jeremy Corbyn were no longer the leader of the party.

    Well at least they are being a bit more honest about their intentions now I guess. Happy to have another leadership contest if they want.
    You think Hodge is vying for the leadership?
    I think Hodge doesn't want Corbyn to be leader of the labour party, the way to change leader is to have a leadership contest, the complain and stamp your feet until he stands down routine must surely be confirmed as something that isn't going to work at this point.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    HYUFD said:

    Also in Australia Steve Bannon calls ousted ex PM Turnbull an appeaser of China and says Australia is ripe for a working class revolt against the globalist, liberal elite

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-03/steve-bannon-says-china-is-at-economic-war-with-west/10174604

    Never be in the same bar as Bannon. He'll demand to know why you're looking at his pint*.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:


    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots

    It's not going to create the same number or type of jobs. It's hard to see any other possible outcome but UBI from here. It's just a question of how and when we get there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018

    HYUFD said:

    And the costal liberals wonder how people in the rust belt could possibly vote for Trump....Ford factory only employees a fraction of the former workforce and the party of the working man is arguing over...

    Can a room temperature really be sexist?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45345518

    Yes it can. Here is the Telegraph from last week without the American political angle. Basically women need or prefer higher temperatures than men.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/air-conditioning-office-still-sexist-dont-care-anyone-says/
    My point was that your average worker in the rust belt worrying about if his job at the Ford factory is going to go hears about leading figures in democratic party arguing over this. I am not sure their response would be suitable for a family friendly website like this.
    Mark Lilla, new book: "The Once and Future Liberal"

    Not sure he would use this precise example, but probably he would argue it is of a piece with the identity politics of the Dems that has turned millions off from them.

    Start talking about shared citizenship and how we can improve the living standards of ordinary folks and stop banging on about all our minute differences would be his message I think (I paraphrase).
    As I posted earlier today, there is a huge vacuum in the likes of US and UK politics. How to deal with the future challenges, especially ever increasingly ay keep calm and carry on.
    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots
    I am confident that in the long term things will be ok, but the short term upheaval will not be pretty when lots of middle class folk find a computer has replaced their skilled professional position in the same way as skilled manual labour have had to deal with similar revolution over the past 20 years.

    I really wouldn't want to be 30 year old doing a low / mid level job that revolves around doing some basic analytical work, as ML techniques can do it better than you especially if overseen by 1-2 humans.

    Those kind of jobs coupled with skilled manual jobs are what a majority of workers do, hence if automation goes badly expect the populists to be in the majority for most of the next half century and a universal basic income funded by a robot tax to be inevitable
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Also in Australia Steve Bannon calls ousted ex PM Turnbull an appeaser of China and says Australia is ripe for a working class revolt against the globalist, liberal elite

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-03/steve-bannon-says-china-is-at-economic-war-with-west/10174604

    Never be in the same bar as Bannon. He'll demand to know why you're looking at his pint*.
    Bannon would pick a fight with himself in a bar if nobody else was around
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:


    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots

    It's not going to create the same number or type of jobs. It's hard to see any other possible outcome but UBI from here. It's just a question of how and when we get there.
    The question largely boils down to how long can the owners of capital keep convincing everyone that it's immigrants and not automation which are taking their jobs.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:


    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots

    It's not going to create the same number or type of jobs. It's hard to see any other possible outcome but UBI from here. It's just a question of how and when we get there.
    Even I agree with you on that. A UBI of some form will eventually come in
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:


    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots

    It's not going to create the same number or type of jobs. It's hard to see any other possible outcome but UBI from here. It's just a question of how and when we get there.
    The question largely boils down to how long can the owners of capital keep convincing everyone that it's immigrants and not automation which are taking their jobs.
    The owners of capital want both cheap, low skilled immigrants and automation, the majority of the population want neither. It is the clash between them that is fuelling the rise of populism across the globe
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Love the brass neck on DavidL trying to blame Argentina's current economic crisis (and running to the IMF, which went so well last time - also under a neoliberal right wing government) on Corbyn-style policies when the country has had a hard-right government for three years and this collapse has come *after* the enactment of the failed hard-right free-market extremist policies he claims everyone should love. Unspoofable, as I believe someone here used to say.

    See also - Brazil, where the right wing couldnt win an election so had to steal the presidency, and unpopular austerity measures have likewise presided over economic disaster.

    Its almost as though there is something affecting the continent that transcends neoliberal / keynesian policymaking (the ongoing commodity prices collapse).

    Venezuela is suffering, but this is as much from devestating sanctions and sabotage as mismanagement. During the Chavez years, Venezuela's economic performance was historically excellent.

    Notable of course that one of the earliest adopters of Venezuela-style social democracy in the region, Bolivia, which has beaten off the attempts of right-wing coup-mongers over the years, is one of the best performing economies in Latin America.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    JWisemann said:

    Love the brass neck on DavidL trying to blame Argentina's current economic crisis (and running to the IMF, which went so well last time - also under a neoliberal right wing government) on Corbyn-style policies when the country has had a hard-right government for three years and this collapse has come *after* the enactment of the failed hard-right free-market extremist policies he claims everyone should love. Unspoofable, as I believe someone here used to say.

    See also - Brazil, where the right wing couldnt win an election so had to steal the presidency, and unpopular austerity measures have likewise presided over economic disaster.

    Its almost as though there is something affecting the continent that transcends neoliberal / keynesian policymaking (the ongoing commodity prices collapse).

    Venezuela is suffering, but this is as much from devestating sanctions and sabotage as mismanagement. During the Chavez years, Venezuela's economic performance was historically excellent.

    Notable of course that one of the earliest adopters of Venezuela-style social democracy in the region, Bolivia, which has beaten off the attempts of right-wing coup-mongers over the years, is one of the best performing economies in Latin America.

    Absolutely.

    Must keep remembering that Chavez came to be worth a few hundred million dollars, and his family more, because of the excellence of his economic policies, and nothing to do with the galloping corruption / ruler self-enrichment that is characteristic of socialist countries.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9993238/Venezuela-the-wealth-of-Chavez-family-exposed.html

    An open and shut case.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:


    Unless automation creates new jobs to replace those lost it will only accelerate the rise of populist parties on both right and left while also fuelling demands for a universal basic income funded by a tax on robots

    It's not going to create the same number or type of jobs. It's hard to see any other possible outcome but UBI from here. It's just a question of how and when we get there.
    That will surely encourage fewer robots and lower productivity, whilst media commentators who bewail the Rise of the Robots (Ta-Da!) also bewail the alleged UK lack of productivity. They can't have it both ways.

    We have been through waves of automation before, and switches to new industries happen quite well. Here we are now some way into the revolution which is supposed to be an existential threat, and we still have full employment, despite a workforce which has expanded by 3 million or 10% in the last decade.

    I'm not convinced that this is anything like the existential crisis claimed.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    edited September 2018

    Margaret Hodge has effectively suggested the only way Labour’s difficulties over antisemitism would come to an end would be if Jeremy Corbyn were no longer the leader of the party.

    Well at least they are being a bit more honest about their intentions now I guess. Happy to have another leadership contest if they want.
    IMO dumping Corbyn would not even scratch the surface. The core of the antisemitism poison in Labour is around Corbyn's friends, fellow-travellers who have had the green light to join Labour, fellow campaigners, and organisations where Corbyn's endorsement has flown a flag giving permission to hate Jews.

    Corbyn's opinions, behaviour and heroic "circumlocutions" (*) have brought it to wider attention, especially recently, but the roots are very deep.

    (*) How many different stories to Jeremy eventually tell about Tunis - was it 4 or perhaps 5?
This discussion has been closed.