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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    I would say England are still 3-4 wickets behind. Which is an improvement, certainly.
  • Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
    You have more confidence in England’s batting than I do....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    What's the Scottish sub sample.

    This site should report naught but the Scottish subsample.
    SNP 34, Con 27, Lab 24, LD 8, UKIP 3, Greens 3
    SNP down 3% on the 2017 general election on that subsample
    You have to remember that their little green helpers will probably only stand in a token seat or 2 at a GE.
    What about Ruth's little Kipper helpers? Yougov subsamples aside, are they now completely assimilated into the racist fruitcake wing of the SCons?
    Anyone that supports the SNP should look at it's pretty disgusting historical of fascist sympathy record before it calls anyone racists. As I have often said, the clue is in the name
    A new entry in the field of barely informed regurgitators. You've got several thousand posts to go before you catch up with those lads.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
    India would take 300 I think.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
    You have more confidence in England’s batting than I do....
    That’s because I bet on India.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
    You have more confidence in England’s batting than I do....
    That’s because I bet on India.
    I don’t bet on any cricket matches involving India or Pakistan.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    kingbongo said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. B, plenty of animals exist that are half the size of a human, or smaller.

    The clear implication was that they are 1/1000th of full size.

    Exist, sure - but full human level cognition in an organism of that size would require a far more efficient brain structure. Perhaps if he had bird brain...
    Kanye West is who we are talking about here.
    self-made multi millionaire in a fantastically competitive field but yeah let’s all all humble-brag about our A levels in Home Economics to sooth our fragile egos - I got shit A levels and a DPhil in complex systems but that doesn’t mean I feel smarter than Kanye
    This is one of the best and maddest posts on PB I've ever read.
  • I thought Gina miller had already ruled herself out?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The Swedish Greens are close to the 4% threshold according to some of the polls, although they're averaging about 5% overall.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    The last one's a bit of a wildcard!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    What's the Scottish sub sample.

    This site should report naught but the Scottish subsample.
    SNP 34, Con 27, Lab 24, LD 8, UKIP 3, Greens 3
    SNP down 3% on the 2017 general election on that subsample
    You have to remember that their little green helpers will probably only stand in a token seat or 2 at a GE.
    What about Ruth's little Kipper helpers? Yougov subsamples aside, are they now completely assimilated into the racist fruitcake wing of the SCons?
    Anyone that supports the SNP should look at it's pretty disgusting historical of fascist sympathy record before it calls anyone racists. As I have often said, the clue is in the name
    A new entry in the field of barely informed regurgitators. You've got several thousand posts to go before you catch up with those lads.
    There is nothing "barely informed" about the fact that the SNP was a hotbed of fascist sympathisers in the 1930s and later. You can deny it as much as you like, but it will not change the historical facts. As I say, the clue is in the name. There is nothing pleasant or admirable about nationalism, it is a hateful creed that has nothing to commend it. If you mix socialism with nationalism, you only need to throw in a bit of ant-Semitism and guess what you get?
  • I thought Gina miller had already ruled herself out?
    A party down on their knees after an old man has let them down could do worse than elect the second favourite
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. L, clearly :D

    Mr. Sandpit, cheers for that. Bit unlucky for Ericsson.

    Big shunt, but he walked away.
    h ttps://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/1035514811231219712
    Lucky man.
    He'll be glad of that Halo...
    Without it he'd have had a different sort of halo!
    Interesting that there was so much harrumphing initially about the halo being fitted - for aesthetic reasons even - but it now seems to have saved two lives already this season....
    Jackie Stewart's comments on it are worth reading:

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131147/stewart-halo-critics-like-1960s-safety-backlash

    It is also perhaps worth remembering it would very possibly have saved Bianchi and Senna (as would the now standard wheel tethers in the latter case).
    Having seen* the footage of the Bianchi Crash, I'm not sure the halo would have saved him, it's a terrifyingly brutal impact. Doesn't mean the halo is a bad idea though.

    * wish i hadn't.
    I think Bianchi went at an angle into the sloping rear of the digger, hard enough to lift the digger up, slew it around, and destroy anything on the car about head level. I find it hard to believe the halo would have been able to prevent grievous injury in that case; there was just too much energy at head level.

    That's why I was wondering if the FIA had modelled it.

    Some crashes might just be unsurvivable, whatever we do. Prevention might be a better start; there had been several cases where cars had nearly hit (or hit) rescue vehicles on track, and these were ignored.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUUUKuo8hXs
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    ..and on that note, it is time to sign out for the afternoon. Heil Salmond to all you SNP supporters.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    It's just not a fair competition. Who could possibly be as embarrassing as Salmond?
    Units of embarrassment would need to be worked out.

    eg

    Cabinet minister wanking on work computer + cabinet minister groping journos + minister who resigned after texting dick pics + minister who resigned after sending thousands of s&m texts = one former FM accused of sexual harassment

    MSP suspended & expelled for inappropriate behaviour = 20 plus racist, misogynist, far right, homophobic, bigoted councillors still in in place

    MP who'd resigned as a minister over previous sexting found to have sexted a 19 year old job candidate = one MP who stood down from her party after being accused of (groundless) financial irregularities

    Of course some filters would have applied for suspended, resigned, stood down, expelled from party, sent to diversity training etc. Any word how many Tory elected 'members' have stood down or been suspended from their party due to their shenanigans?
    LOL.

    You're cheating by including those plonkers in Westminster. In Scotland we have a bunch of dinosaurs (with due apologies to any dinosauria actually reading about the unfair stereotyping) in local government that no one has ever heard of against a former First Minister who won an absolute majority when that was not supposed to be possible and damn near won an Independence Referendum without even the semblance of a coherent plan for independence and who has been a fixture on our screens and talk shows for more than 20 years. Not even close.

    And whilst replying I completely agree with your reply to Nigel_Foremain. The modern SNP is a social democratic party whose main objective I profoundly disagree with but to suggest that there is any taint on it because of what some nutters did or didn't do 70 years ago is ridiculous. It's like those who criticise the Daily Mail for having supported fascism in the 1930s as opposed to just being bigoted crap.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
    You have more confidence in England’s batting than I do....
    That’s because I bet on India.
    I don’t bet on any cricket matches involving India or Pakistan.
    Agreed about Pakistan, this series has been profitable though.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Disappointing news that Crossrail is going to be delayed by nearly a year.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    What's the Scottish sub sample.

    This site should report naught but the Scottish subsample.
    SNP 34, Con 27, Lab 24, LD 8, UKIP 3, Greens 3
    SNP down 3% on the 2017 general election on that subsample
    You have to remember that their little green helpers will probably only stand in a token seat or 2 at a GE.
    What about Ruth's little Kipper helpers? Yougov subsamples aside, are they now completely assimilated into the racist fruitcake wing of the SCons?
    Anyone that supports the SNP should look at it's pretty disgusting historical of fascist sympathy record before it calls anyone racists. As I have often said, the clue is in the name
    A new entry in the field of barely informed regurgitators. You've got several thousand posts to go before you catch up with those lads.
    There is nothing "barely informed" about the fact that the SNP was a hotbed of fascist sympathisers in the 1930s and later. You can deny it as much as you like, but it will not change the historical facts...
    So what ?
    Most political parties espoused pretty vile views back in the 1930s judged by today's standards, and no politician active back then is even alive now.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1035525778228883457

    Trouble is that when Pollard attacks Corbyn for being Corbyn, he devalues the charge of antisemitism and makes it easier for Corbynistas to write that off as yet another smear from the Corbyn-hating Pollard.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Good Lord, Root took a catch. Might cheer him up a bit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. L, clearly :D

    Mr. Sandpit, cheers for that. Bit unlucky for Ericsson.

    Big shunt, but he walked away.
    h ttps://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/1035514811231219712
    Lucky man.
    He'll be glad of that Halo...
    Without it he'd have had a different sort of halo!
    Interesting that there was so much harrumphing initially about the halo being fitted - for aesthetic reasons even - but it now seems to have saved two lives already this season....
    Jackie Stewart's comments on it are worth reading:

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131147/stewart-halo-critics-like-1960s-safety-backlash

    It is also perhaps worth remembering it would very possibly have saved Bianchi and Senna (as would the now standard wheel tethers in the latter case).
    Having seen* the footage of the Bianchi Crash, I'm not sure the halo would have saved him, it's a terrifyingly brutal impact. Doesn't mean the halo is a bad idea though.

    * wish i hadn't.
    I think Bianchi went at an angle into the sloping rear of the digger, hard enough to lift the digger up, slew it around, and destroy anything on the car about head level. I find it hard to believe the halo would have been able to prevent grievous injury in that case; there was just too much energy at head level.

    That's why I was wondering if the FIA had modelled it.

    Some crashes might just be unsurvivable, whatever we do. Prevention might be a better start; there had been several cases where cars had nearly hit (or hit) rescue vehicles on track, and these were ignored.

    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUUUKuo8hXs
    I think Bianchi (and Senna) were just horrible freak accidents, nothing could practically have been done to avoid the fatal impact. Thankfully the video I saw of Bianchi stopped just before the hit, that he wasn’t killed instantly was a miracle given the accident dynamics.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    edited August 2018
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    Yep, deeply destabilising. There was some idea of an artificial island being built opposite Gaza with desalination plants but that is probably decades away, even without the help of TfL.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    AndyJS said:

    Disappointing news that Crossrail is going to be delayed by nearly a year.

    Par for the course. I've waited longer on the platform for a Southern train.
  • 195 for 7 - can England achieve a lead
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    I am sure that it was obvious to someone why Moeen was the man to drop when the whole team were playing badly but its looking a less than inspired decision at the moment.
  • Make that 195 for 8
  • The beard that's feared is on a hat-trick.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Cricviz has us at 59% to win. 69% now. We're miles ahead.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
    India would take 300 I think.
    They certainly would do now!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    195 for 7 - can England achieve a lead

    Massively odds on.

    From the Betfair forum:

    Cardinal Scott • August 31, 2018 1:01 PM BST
    £539.16 Green India
    £710.95 Red England
    £580.78 Red Draw

    Cardinal Scott • August 31, 2018 4:17 PM BST
    FFS I'm buried!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    Donetsk separatist leader Zakharchenko killed.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2018
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    Well considering Egypt and Jordan claimed the Palestinian land as their own until 67 why shouldn't they be the ones who pay to support the Palestinians?

    If Palestinians want American taxdollars it seems reasonable to request that the Palestinians become friendly with America. If they're not going to then they should ask those who they are friendly with to support them.

    PS if Egypt and Jordan were footing the bill for the Palestinians I suspect a compromise with Israel that achieved peace would have been secured already.
  • These modern day cricketers can’t bat can they....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Surely Geographical Indicators are to do with trade? Which the EU refuses to discuss outwith a 'statement of intent'?

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1035546462829129729
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    DavidL said:

    I am sure that it was obvious to someone why Moeen was the man to drop when the whole team were playing badly but its looking a less than inspired decision at the moment.

    When he's good, he's very good - but dropping him and allowing him to rediscover form seems to have worked out pretty well.

    England's electoral problems remain the top three positions. Clearly Jennings is done, but Cook looks at the very fag end of his career, and Root is just not a number three, particularly when he has to come in so early every innings.
    If we had a decent opening pair, we'd look quite a useful side.
  • Surely Geographical Indicators are to do with trade? Which the EU refuses to discuss outwith a 'statement of intent'?

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1035546462829129729

    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    edited August 2018

    Surely Geographical Indicators are to do with trade? Which the EU refuses to discuss outwith a 'statement of intent'?

    https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1035546462829129729

    Champagne and Cornish pasties is another of those food combinations which just isn't right.

    Morsels of progress sound quite appetising, though.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    If we could combine India's openers with England's tail end, we would have a decent team.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited August 2018
    England batsmen: 71-6
    England bowlers: 141-5

    India Batsmen: 177-6
    India bowlers: 5-3
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Wicket. This might actually be a competitive test.

    Ha. 29-ball duck. A record?

    [Edit: joint record for India. Our own Jimmy managed 55 balls, and Geoff Allott managed 77(!) for the Kiwis.]

    Definitely England’s session. We’ve a reasonable chance of holding them to 300 or so. Game on.
    You have more confidence in England’s batting than I do....
    That’s because I bet on India.
    Traitor!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Donetsk separatist leader Zakharchenko killed.

    Cui bono?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    A headline that will surprise no one here:
    "Dominic Raab's progress with Michel Barnier has underlined how bad David Davis was at the Brexit negotiations"
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-talks-michel-barnier-dominic-raab-uk-eu-deal-border-immigration-a8516816.html
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    edited August 2018

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job. He doesn't show leadership.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.





  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    edited August 2018

    The beard that's feared is on a hat-trick.

    Though one of his wickets was from an attempted reverse sweep outside of off stump.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2018
    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
  • TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    So not possible then.
  • Anorak said:

    A headline that will surprise no one here:
    "Dominic Raab's progress with Michel Barnier has underlined how bad David Davis was at the Brexit negotiations"
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-talks-michel-barnier-dominic-raab-uk-eu-deal-border-immigration-a8516816.html

    I said that a few days ago - the four involved now TM, Raab, Lidington and Olly Robbins are grown ups
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    What's the Scottish sub sample.

    This site should report naught but the Scottish subsample.
    SNP 34, Con 27, Lab 24, LD 8, UKIP 3, Greens 3
    SNP down 3% on the 2017 general election on that subsample
    You have to remember that their little green helpers will probably only stand in a token seat or 2 at a GE.
    What about Ruth's little Kipper helpers? Yougov subsamples aside, are they now completely assimilated into the racist fruitcake wing of the SCons?
    Anyone that supports the SNP should look at it's pretty disgusting historical of fascist sympathy record before it calls anyone racists. As I have often said, the clue is in the name
    A new entry in the field of barely informed regurgitators. You've got several thousand posts to go before you catch up with those lads.
    There is nothing "barely informed" about the fact that the SNP was a hotbed of fascist sympathisers in the 1930s and later. You can deny it as much as you like, but it will not change the historical facts. As I say, the clue is in the name. There is nothing pleasant or admirable about nationalism, it is a hateful creed that has nothing to commend it. If you mix socialism with nationalism, you only need to throw in a bit of ant-Semitism and guess what you get?
    Och, could you not bring up something new instead of the same old shite? I'll stick with barely informed, and remind you which side of the 'national' question in Scotland UKIP, BNP, EDL, SDL, Orange Order, NF and sundry holocaust deniers reside on now.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Corbyn could have halted immediately the personal campaign against FF in his CLP and changed his mind on the Labour definition on AS. Both/either of those would have shown a willingness to maintain Labour's coalition.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited August 2018

    These modern day cricketers can’t bat can they....

    The indian batsmen can bat, the indian bowlers can bowl but can't bat.
    The english batsmen can't bat or bowl, but the english bowlers can both bat and bowl(*).

    *Well except Jimmy and Stu, but they can both bowl very well indeed.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Jonathan said:

    AndyJS said:

    Disappointing news that Crossrail is going to be delayed by nearly a year.

    Par for the course. I've waited longer on the platform for a Southern train.
    It means another summer of travelling on the Central Line in blazing temperatures.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Corbyn could have halted immediately the personal campaign against FF in his CLP and changed his mind on the Labour definition on AS. Both/either of those would have shown a willingness to maintain Labour's coalition.
    Indeed and @AlastairMeeks could have solved the Brexit crisis by voting for Brexit but that just wasn't something that he was going to do now, was it? Because he really, really doesn't believe in Brexit.

    There is your problem with Jezza and anti-semitism right there.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Thought that was Owen Jones
  • TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Corbyn could have halted immediately the personal campaign against FF in his CLP and changed his mind on the Labour definition on AS. Both/either of those would have shown a willingness to maintain Labour's coalition.
    Indeed and @AlastairMeeks could have solved the Brexit crisis by voting for Brexit but that just wasn't something that he was going to do now, was it? Because he really, really doesn't believe in Brexit.

    There is your problem with Jezza and anti-semitism right there.
    Corbyn really, really doesn't believe in tackling anti-semitism?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    edited August 2018
    https://apnews.com/4ac772445073491aa7d3ca9e558e0144

    A senior Justice Department lawyer says a former British spy told him at a breakfast meeting two years ago that Russian intelligence believed it had Donald Trump “over a barrel,” according to multiple people familiar with the encounter.

  • Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Corbyn could have halted immediately the personal campaign against FF in his CLP and changed his mind on the Labour definition on AS. Both/either of those would have shown a willingness to maintain Labour's coalition.
    Indeed and @AlastairMeeks could have solved the Brexit crisis by voting for Brexit but that just wasn't something that he was going to do now, was it? Because he really, really doesn't believe in Brexit.

    There is your problem with Jezza and anti-semitism right there.
    Corbyn really, really doesn't believe in tackling anti-semitism?
    He would need to understand what it is to tackle it. As understanding it is conflicts with his views, the computer says "No".
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Corbyn could have halted immediately the personal campaign against FF in his CLP and changed his mind on the Labour definition on AS. Both/either of those would have shown a willingness to maintain Labour's coalition.
    Indeed and @AlastairMeeks could have solved the Brexit crisis by voting for Brexit but that just wasn't something that he was going to do now, was it? Because he really, really doesn't believe in Brexit.

    There is your problem with Jezza and anti-semitism right there.
    Corbyn really, really doesn't believe in tackling anti-semitism?
    I think all he really likes is touring round, and being mooned over by crowds of people who think he won the Nobel Peace Prize.

    Witness his churlish and petulant response to any question ever posed by a journalist, and lack of involvement in any internal party matter, and lack of involvement in detailed policy-setting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    https://apnews.com/4ac772445073491aa7d3ca9e558e0144

    A senior Justice Department lawyer says a former British spy told him at a breakfast meeting two years ago that Russian intelligence believed it had Donald Trump “over a barrel,” according to multiple people familiar with the encounter.

    So somebody told somebody that someone else had something that had Trump over a barrel. That's what passes as news these days, is it?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    https://apnews.com/4ac772445073491aa7d3ca9e558e0144

    A senior Justice Department lawyer says a former British spy told him at a breakfast meeting two years ago that Russian intelligence believed it had Donald Trump “over a barrel,” according to multiple people familiar with the encounter.

    I dislike Trump intensely, but this sort of story just plays into his hands. Someone claims her was told by someone else that Trump was a naughty boy. It's not exactly direct evidence; and direct evidence is needed.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751

    https://apnews.com/4ac772445073491aa7d3ca9e558e0144

    A senior Justice Department lawyer says a former British spy told him at a breakfast meeting two years ago that Russian intelligence believed it had Donald Trump “over a barrel,” according to multiple people familiar with the encounter.

    That assumes that Trump has a sense of shame.
  • Anorak said:

    A headline that will surprise no one here:
    "Dominic Raab's progress with Michel Barnier has underlined how bad David Davis was at the Brexit negotiations"
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-talks-michel-barnier-dominic-raab-uk-eu-deal-border-immigration-a8516816.html

    Negotiations are easy if you give in to the other side. Is that what you mean?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Cricviz has us at 59% to win. 69% now. We're miles ahead.

    India bat last = less likely to win, all other things being equal.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    But what about the impact on the good burghers of Eccles and their delicious cakes, when profits are undermined by a perfidious baker in Bratislava?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Anorak said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    But what about the impact on the good burghers of Eccles and their delicious cakes, when profits are undermined by a perfidious baker in Bratislava?
    Slovak Stilton

    has a ring to it.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    A headline that will surprise no one here:
    "Dominic Raab's progress with Michel Barnier has underlined how bad David Davis was at the Brexit negotiations"
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-talks-michel-barnier-dominic-raab-uk-eu-deal-border-immigration-a8516816.html

    Negotiations are easy if you give in to the other side. Is that what you mean?
    No.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Exactly.

    Protectionism doesn’t help consumers. Providing something is safe, there should be no real restrictions on whether something is called Champagne or Parmagiano.
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    Jonathan said:

    kingbongo said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. B, plenty of animals exist that are half the size of a human, or smaller.

    The clear implication was that they are 1/1000th of full size.

    Exist, sure - but full human level cognition in an organism of that size would require a far more efficient brain structure. Perhaps if he had bird brain...
    Kanye West is who we are talking about here.
    self-made multi millionaire in a fantastically competitive field but yeah let’s all all humble-brag about our A levels in Home Economics to sooth our fragile egos - I got shit A levels and a DPhil in complex systems but that doesn’t mean I feel smarter than Kanye
    This is one of the best and maddest posts on PB I've ever read.
    why thank you kind sir - your de haute en bas pat on the head is gratefully acknowledged
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2018


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer, taking us back to the bad old days when UK merchants sold 'Burgundy' adulterated with Algerian plonk.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    Yep that's a funny one (as in pretty simple) for the Brexiters to misunderstand.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    How anyone can argue against this self-evident truth is beyond me.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    The critical issue is labelling, as to whether Crimean Champagne, Wisconsin Parmesan or Californian Chablis are labelled correctly. My understanding is that the US food companies prefer slipping their factory made pap under the radar.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    https://apnews.com/4ac772445073491aa7d3ca9e558e0144

    A senior Justice Department lawyer says a former British spy told him at a breakfast meeting two years ago that Russian intelligence believed it had Donald Trump “over a barrel,” according to multiple people familiar with the encounter.

    That assumes that Trump has a sense of shame.
    Shame doesn't come into it if it's dodgy money that they have over him.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2018
    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    So call it English Sparkling Wine, which is what it is (and very good too, much of it).

    Would you be happy if, after English winemakers established a reputation for quality, the Chinese started selling some carbonated factory plonk under the name English Sparkling Wine?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    TOPPING said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    Yep that's a funny one (as in pretty simple) for the Brexiters to misunderstand.
    Cheddar's an odd one though.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    kingbongo said:

    Jonathan said:

    kingbongo said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. B, plenty of animals exist that are half the size of a human, or smaller.

    The clear implication was that they are 1/1000th of full size.

    Exist, sure - but full human level cognition in an organism of that size would require a far more efficient brain structure. Perhaps if he had bird brain...
    Kanye West is who we are talking about here.
    self-made multi millionaire in a fantastically competitive field but yeah let’s all all humble-brag about our A levels in Home Economics to sooth our fragile egos - I got shit A levels and a DPhil in complex systems but that doesn’t mean I feel smarter than Kanye
    This is one of the best and maddest posts on PB I've ever read.
    why thank you kind sir - your de haute en bas pat on the head is gratefully acknowledged
    Not sure Wolfson counts as a proper Oxford college, mind.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    By the same token, presumably a "Chequers Brexit" is as good as any other Brexit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    If I was Pujara I wouldn't be holding back in trying to get these last 4 runs.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2018
    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    Bizarre. I mean the concept of brand importance and rules of origin are fairly straightforward and logical.

    English champagne would, in 84% of cases, be inferior to French champagne where...

    Actually, I was going to set down an example of how it would be bad but realised that I am talking to a grown up and shouldn't really need to.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,878
    Anazina said:


    Labour 33,558 76.9%
    Conservative 8,044 8.4%
    Liberal Dem. 1,118 2.6%
    Green 943 1.8%

    Good luck with the By Election Frank

    Oh your not calling one

    Surprise Surprise

    Field will look stupidly and cowardly if he fails to call one now. If he wasn't 100% sure he was going to call one, he ought not have floated the idea.
    Late to the game but:
    1. I don't think he'll call one
    2. I don't think he'd win if he did
    3. I suspect he's probably going to retire at the next election now anyway

    And to the comment about the Conservatives and Lib Dems standing aside, I hope they don't. I'm a firm believer in the principle that if they see themselves as a major party, they stand whatever the 'weather' in that seat would suggest.

    I can't see anything other than a safe Labour hold if Field does call for one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    edited August 2018

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yes, it was never made their, just sold there as Stliton is on the A1, Great Northern Rd in historic times.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    matt said:

    TOPPING said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    Yep that's a funny one (as in pretty simple) for the Brexiters to misunderstand.
    Cheddar's an odd one though.
    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Labour MP for almost 40 years. What a state for the party to get themselves into.
    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1035551766664957952
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    DavidL said:

    If I was Pujara I wouldn't be holding back in trying to get these last 4 runs.

    India would have been in a bonny mess without him.

    At the moment, the number of extras India conceded are the difference betweeen the sides.

  • Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    No they're not. You used to be able to get in Australia very good Australian Champagnes. They were properly labelled so how was it a fraud? Already not all French Champagnes are the same, which is why you get some for much, much cheaper than others - why should a cheap French champagne be genuine but a a premium Australian one is a fraud?

    It is a trade issue not a protection issue and if the French farmers want it they can agree it (and agree to Stilton etc) in a trade deal. No deal, no protectionism.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yes, it was never made their, just sold there as Stliton is on the A1, Great Northern Rd in historic times.
    AIUI they dispute that it was not made there. Besides, how far would they be likely to obtain cheese from for sale there?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    TOPPING said:

    matt said:

    TOPPING said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    Yep that's a funny one (as in pretty simple) for the Brexiters to misunderstand.
    Cheddar's an odd one though.
    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.
    Geographical designation is really only a form of protection of intellectual property.

    If the USA wants to force Californian Chablis on us, then we should also be allowed Indian made Microsoft Office knock offs.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yep - that's why someone came up with Stichelton (sp).

    Stilton is made in Leicestershire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire - Cropwell Bishop, Colston Bassett, Long Clawson. There used to be a Quenby stilton but it went bust. There is apparently a Melton Mowbray and a Saxelbye one but those must be dairies not where they are made as I have never heard of them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    By the same token, presumably a "Chequers Brexit" is as good as any other Brexit.
    I am not sure that the geographical description is really the key thing there. Quite like a lot of other products to be honest.
This discussion has been closed.