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  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    If I was Pujara I wouldn't be holding back in trying to get these last 4 runs.

    India would have been in a bonny mess without him.

    At the moment, the number of extras India conceded are the difference betweeen the sides.
    Extras was my third favourite batsman yesterday. After Curran and Moeen he was a standout performer.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    RoyalBlue said:

    Anazina said:

    IanB2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    EU contemplates adopting permanent summer time.

    It would have been worth staying in for that alone. Important not to underestimate how much practical nuts and bolts stuff like this, and free mobile roaming across the EU, affects the quality of life.

    And what stops Westminster deciding that adopting permanent summer time is right for the UK?
    Scottish children going to school in the dark.

    Had the indyref gone the other way, we'd be on GMT+1 all year round by now.

    Why not retain GMT for Scotland and possibly NI (Glasgow Mean Time) and keep BST year round for England and Wales? Other states manage perfectly well with multiple time zones and I have never grasped why we cannot. The Scottish border makes an obvious and sensible choice for a time zone border.

    GMT is just bonkers down here, it makes no sense on any level.
    Scotland does more trade with the rest of the U.K. than the rest of the world. Having a separate timezone is an absolutely daft idea.

    It’s almost as mad as Spain being on the same time zone as Poland.
    Why would changing the time zone mean less trade?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2018
    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    rcs1000 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anazina said:

    IanB2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    EU contemplates adopting permanent summer time.

    It would have been worth staying in for that alone. Important not to underestimate how much practical nuts and bolts stuff like this, and free mobile roaming across the EU, affects the quality of life.

    And what stops Westminster deciding that adopting permanent summer time is right for the UK?
    Scottish children going to school in the dark.

    Had the indyref gone the other way, we'd be on GMT+1 all year round by now.

    Why not retain GMT for Scotland and possibly NI (Glasgow Mean Time) and keep BST year round for England and Wales? Other states manage perfectly well with multiple time zones and I have never grasped why we cannot. The Scottish border makes an obvious and sensible choice for a time zone border.

    GMT is just bonkers down here, it makes no sense on any level.
    Scotland does more trade with the rest of the U.K. than the rest of the world. Having a separate timezone is an absolutely daft idea.

    It’s almost as mad as Spain being on the same time zone as Poland.
    Why would changing the time zone mean less trade?
    Well, I bid on Auctions in Scotland quite a lot. I’d definitely miss a bid or ten if the time zone was different...

    ;)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited August 2018
    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    If I was Pujara I wouldn't be holding back in trying to get these last 4 runs.

    India would have been in a bonny mess without him.

    At the moment, the number of extras India conceded are the difference betweeen the sides.
    Extras was my third favourite batsman yesterday. After Curran and Moeen he was a standout performer.
    I remember once a friend of mine was confused, watching the Open, at how many holes Mr Birdie Putt seemed to be playing at once.
  • Foxy said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    The critical issue is labelling, as to whether Crimean Champagne, Wisconsin Parmesan or Californian Chablis are labelled correctly. My understanding is that the US food companies prefer slipping their factory made pap under the radar.
    Indeed, I'm all for requiring clear labelling. If someone wants to buy Californian Chablis then so long as it is clearly labelled as such then no fraud is happening.

    This protectionism is a trade issue. The EU is trying to extort from Britain what they want in a trade deal without agreeing a trade deal. No. Sign a trade deal and Champagne is exclusively French, refuse to sign one and its not. I can't think of any nation that recognises EU GI's but doesn't have a trade deal with them and I don't see why we should be the first.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    If I was Pujara I wouldn't be holding back in trying to get these last 4 runs.

    India would have been in a bonny mess without him.

    At the moment, the number of extras India conceded are the difference betweeen the sides.
    He deserved that but we want to wrap this up now.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    edited August 2018

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    'They'll believe anything'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    'They'll believe anything'
    Irrational faith clearly has its uses.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Incidentally he may not have taken wickets but with another spinner at the other end Rashid has bowled with much more control than in the first three Tests. A sign of the way to go - Moeen at seven for good with four seamers and another spinner? Would give England an absolutely lethal attack.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2018
    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
    By 'more expensive', you mean low-quality foods fraudulently sold off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    As for innovation: quite the opposite. If producers can't steal and traduce the reputations of existing products, they need to establish their own quality reputations - English sparkling wine being the perfect example.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yep - that's why someone came up with Stichelton (sp).

    Stilton is made in Leicestershire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire - Cropwell Bishop, Colston Bassett, Long Clawson. There used to be a Quenby stilton but it went bust. There is apparently a Melton Mowbray and a Saxelbye one but those must be dairies not where they are made as I have never heard of them.
    The Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Shoppe also sells local Stilton.

    Quenby Hall in Leics claims to be the oldest one, but the De lisle family sold up a few years ago. Their Stilton was very good indeed, but a rather unfortunate incident with Listeria in the USA wiped them out financially:

    https://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/food-poisoning-watch/quenby-hall-blue-stilton-cheese-recalled-due-to-listeria-contamination/

    Which perhaps is why traceability and food standards matter.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752

    Foxy said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    The critical issue is labelling, as to whether Crimean Champagne, Wisconsin Parmesan or Californian Chablis are labelled correctly. My understanding is that the US food companies prefer slipping their factory made pap under the radar.
    Indeed, I'm all for requiring clear labelling. If someone wants to buy Californian Chablis then so long as it is clearly labelled as such then no fraud is happening.
    Yes there is because Chablis is a place with a specific terroir characterised by high levels of minerality.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Well, this was bound to happen:

    "Southampton 'paedophile hunter' guilty of false claim"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-43201269
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
    By 'more expensive', you mean low-quality foods fraudulently sold off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    As for innovation: quite the opposite. If producers can't steal and traduce the reputations of existing products, they need to establish their own quality reputations - English sparkling wine being the perfect example.
    The protectionist cachet adds value above and beyond the product; it doesn’t have to be good, just from X.

    It therefore puts an artificial floor under the prices that natural market competition would eradicate.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    DavidL said:

    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.

    Pujara's played a fantastic innings here to be fair.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.

    Pujara's played a fantastic innings here to be fair.
    Superb. All credit to him.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally he may not have taken wickets but with another spinner at the other end Rashid has bowled with much more control than in the first three Tests. A sign of the way to go - Moeen at seven for good with four seamers and another spinner? Would give England an absolutely lethal attack.

    Moeen should bat higher. He does very successfully for Worcs.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Frank Field makes a rather good point:

    He said he knew of several peers – whom he declined to name – who are Labour party members but who do not take the whip in the upper chamber.

    “There are members of the House of Lords who don’t take the Labour whip. I will argue on that basis that I have a right to remain a member of the party. They continue to pay their Labour membership fees.

    “I will argue that I wish to be given the same rights as Labour members in the House of Lords.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/31/frank-field-says-labour-has-threatened-to-kick-him-out-of-party
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yep - that's why someone came up with Stichelton (sp).

    Stilton is made in Leicestershire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire - Cropwell Bishop, Colston Bassett, Long Clawson. There used to be a Quenby stilton but it went bust. There is apparently a Melton Mowbray and a Saxelbye one but those must be dairies not where they are made as I have never heard of them.
    Melton is Tuxford and Tebbut.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    They tried that in 1967. The result will be the same.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Frank Field makes a rather good point:

    He said he knew of several peers – whom he declined to name – who are Labour party members but who do not take the whip in the upper chamber.

    “There are members of the House of Lords who don’t take the Labour whip. I will argue on that basis that I have a right to remain a member of the party. They continue to pay their Labour membership fees.

    “I will argue that I wish to be given the same rights as Labour members in the House of Lords.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/31/frank-field-says-labour-has-threatened-to-kick-him-out-of-party

    Yep. And the clause in the Labour rules that was posted yesterday suggests no one had legislated for the notion of a party member not taking the whip in the commons.

    Suspect FF will win any legal action.
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    Thanks for that, he seems the kind of MP that Labour and Parliament can ill afford to lose. He must regret his nomination of Corbyn in 2015 though.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    It is indeed interesting. One wonders what level of degenerate, adulterous, boastful lying is intolerable to US Evangelicals.
  • DavidL said:

    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.


    The England openers will not be wanting to be put in to bat this evening. So they will be hoping India bat out the day.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    On days like this you have to love Cricket. England have worked so hard, they deserve to be back in this game. India must be gutted. Let's hope England aren't exhausted.

    They look set to end up with a similar total, but were 86-6 and 189-6. Amazing stuff.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Notme, might not be.

    I agree with your implication that Israel will win. But the consequences could be quite different. Will they claim more territory? Will those in Gaza be transported/forced to leave?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Jonathan said:

    On days like this you have to love Cricket. England have worked so hard, they deserve to be back in this game. India must be gutted. Let's hope England aren't exhausted.

    They look set to end up with a similar total, but were 86-6 and 189-6. Amazing stuff.

    +1
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    That local councillor Frank Field mentioned in his resignation letter must really be disliked by some:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1035562064738222081
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Im not good in a crisis
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:

    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.


    The England openers will not be wanting to be put in to bat this evening. So they will be hoping India bat out the day.
    There's still an hour left (with the inevitable extra half hour) so I very much hope they are batting tonight.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    notme said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    They tried that in 1967. The result will be the same.

    You misunderstood my post. I was assuming the Palestinians might attack Egypt and Jordan, not that Egypt and Jordan would attack Israel.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.


    The England openers will not be wanting to be put in to bat this evening. So they will be hoping India bat out the day.
    There's still an hour left (with the inevitable extra half hour) so I very much hope they are batting tonight.
    These days and way this match has been going can we 100% certain that India will not bat again tonight. ;-)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    O/T: I know Arethra Franklin was the Queen of Soul and all that. But a five hour funeral? Even real Queens don’t get that.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited August 2018

    That local councillor Frank Field mentioned in his resignation letter must really be disliked by some:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1035562064738222081

    If you want more info on what is, has been going on have a browse of wirralleaks website.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    DavidL said:

    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.


    The England openers will not be wanting to be put in to bat this evening. So they will be hoping India bat out the day.
    They've got more than an hour's play left. If it were fifteen minutes I'd agree with you (not that I think Jennings will survive fifteen minutes or even fifteen seconds).
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Im not good in a crisis
    Why would Jezza overule the local CLP

    He is on the side of the 600,000 not the 172 Chicken Coupers
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Jonathan said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I was hoping we were going to have some runs to compensate for Jennings being out cheaply for a while there.


    The England openers will not be wanting to be put in to bat this evening. So they will be hoping India bat out the day.
    There's still an hour left (with the inevitable extra half hour) so I very much hope they are batting tonight.
    These days and way this match has been going can we 100% certain that India will not bat again tonight. ;-)
    Yes, as long as someone keeps Sam company.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
    By 'more expensive', you mean low-quality foods fraudulently sold off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    As for innovation: quite the opposite. If producers can't steal and traduce the reputations of existing products, they need to establish their own quality reputations - English sparkling wine being the perfect example.
    Lymeswold is a great example. From Somerset but the cover shot from Leicestershire. Designed by committee. I can't top Wiki: The cheese's creation was hailed by Peter Walker, then Agriculture Minister, who said it would improve the balance of payments by replacing imports and becoming "one of our most successful cheese exports". It didn't.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
    By 'more expensive', you mean low-quality foods fraudulently sold off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    As for innovation: quite the opposite. If producers can't steal and traduce the reputations of existing products, they need to establish their own quality reputations - English sparkling wine being the perfect example.
    The protectionist cachet adds value above and beyond the product; it doesn’t have to be good, just from X.

    It therefore puts an artificial floor under the prices that natural market competition would eradicate.

    Much like rare books, eh? "Well, it may not be a real 18th century first edition, but it's nicely printed and there aren't many Americanisms in it".
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    ydoethur said:

    notme said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    They tried that in 1967. The result will be the same.

    You misunderstood my post. I was assuming the Palestinians might attack Egypt and Jordan, not that Egypt and Jordan would attack Israel.
    There are lots of rich Arab states. Why wouldn’t they send money to the Palestinians, if the US cancels its payments? Solidarity and all that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    edited August 2018

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Im not good in a crisis
    Why would Jezza overule the local CLP

    He is on the side of the 600,000 not the 172 Chicken Coupers
    313K voted for Corbyn
    193K voted for Smith

    60:40 split.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Cyclefree said:

    O/T: I know Arethra Franklin was the Queen of Soul and all that. But a five hour funeral? Even real Queens don’t get that.

    I was quite taken aback that people were queuing up to see the body in an open coffin. Sounded distinctly ghoulish to me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    notme said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    They tried that in 1967. The result will be the same.

    You misunderstood my post. I was assuming the Palestinians might attack Egypt and Jordan, not that Egypt and Jordan would attack Israel.
    There are lots of rich Arab states. Why wouldn’t they send money to the Palestinians, if the US cancels its payments? Solidarity and all that.
    I'm sure the Iranians will.

    And I'm sure a condition of increased aid will be a massive increase in Hamas' terrorist activity.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    O/T: I know Arethra Franklin was the Queen of Soul and all that. But a five hour funeral? Even real Queens don’t get that.

    I was quite taken aback that people were queuing up to see the body in an open coffin. Sounded distinctly ghoulish to me.
    Well, the Irish and Italians often have open coffins the day before or the morning of the funeral for family and friends to say goodbye. So not that ghoulish.

    But doing it for days and changing clothes etc seems vulgarly OTT to me.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692
    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Im not good in a crisis
    Why would Jezza overule the local CLP

    He is on the side of the 600,000 not the 172 Chicken Coupers
    313K voted for Corbyn
    193K voted for Smith

    60:40 split.
    62/38

    Likely to have increased now too i would think
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692
    The PLP remind me of the Pigs in Animal Farm
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
    By 'more expensive', you mean low-quality foods fraudulently sold off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    As for innovation: quite the opposite. If producers can't steal and traduce the reputations of existing products, they need to establish their own quality reputations - English sparkling wine being the perfect example.
    The protectionist cachet adds value above and beyond the product; it doesn’t have to be good, just from X.

    It therefore puts an artificial floor under the prices that natural market competition would eradicate.

    Much like rare books, eh? "Well, it may not be a real 18th century first edition, but it's nicely printed and there aren't many Americanisms in it".
    Eh?

    People produce facsimile editions of antiquarian books. The customer then decides whether he wants an original or the much cheaper facsimile.

    There isn’t a committee deciding that they cannot be produced.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    O/T: I know Arethra Franklin was the Queen of Soul and all that. But a five hour funeral? Even real Queens don’t get that.

    I was quite taken aback that people were queuing up to see the body in an open coffin. Sounded distinctly ghoulish to me.
    Well, the Irish and Italians often have open coffins the day before or the morning of the funeral for family and friends to say goodbye. So not that ghoulish.

    But doing it for days and changing clothes etc seems vulgarly OTT to me.
    I can just about imagine it with a close relative. But someone famous you probably never met? I think that's weird.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    notme said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    They tried that in 1967. The result will be the same.

    You misunderstood my post. I was assuming the Palestinians might attack Egypt and Jordan, not that Egypt and Jordan would attack Israel.
    There are lots of rich Arab states. Why wouldn’t they send money to the Palestinians, if the US cancels its payments? Solidarity and all that.
    I'm sure the Iranians will.

    And I'm sure a condition of increased aid will be a massive increase in Hamas' terrorist activity.
    The irony being that the Iranians are, of course, not Arab. One interesting aspect of recent Palestinian history is how unpopular they have made themselves with Arab states eg Jordan and Lebanon, both of which expelled them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    How often have England let the tail end batsman get a single off the first ball of the over? We are really poor at finishing off an innings.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    O/T: I know Arethra Franklin was the Queen of Soul and all that. But a five hour funeral? Even real Queens don’t get that.

    I was quite taken aback that people were queuing up to see the body in an open coffin. Sounded distinctly ghoulish to me.
    Well, the Irish and Italians often have open coffins the day before or the morning of the funeral for family and friends to say goodbye. So not that ghoulish.

    But doing it for days and changing clothes etc seems vulgarly OTT to me.
    I can just about imagine it with a close relative. But someone famous you probably never met? I think that's weird.
    Oh I agree. But it may be an African-American thing. It was done for Emmett Till in the 1950’s, though there were good reasons for that - showing the brutal reality of racism.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.

    Yes, something in that, but basically he's someone who tries to work out everything from first principles, on his own (as a Minister I'm told he used to lock himself away to study an issue, and emerge with a fully-formed plan from which he would rarely want to deviate). The result is unpredictable and un-aligned with any wing of any party. He's extremely bright, but not a team player and doesn't do lazy compromise.

    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Stopped being antisemitic?

    Taken antisemitism seriously?

    Been serious about "kinder, gentler politics"?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Im not good in a crisis
    Why would Jezza overule the local CLP

    He is on the side of the 600,000 not the 172 Chicken Coupers
    313K voted for Corbyn
    193K voted for Smith

    60:40 split.
    62/38

    Likely to have increased now too i would think
    Nah. Went up last year and has been trending down ever since. Give it a year and Cooper might beat him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    notme said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    They tried that in 1967. The result will be the same.

    You misunderstood my post. I was assuming the Palestinians might attack Egypt and Jordan, not that Egypt and Jordan would attack Israel.
    There are lots of rich Arab states. Why wouldn’t they send money to the Palestinians, if the US cancels its payments? Solidarity and all that.
    I'm sure the Iranians will.

    And I'm sure a condition of increased aid will be a massive increase in Hamas' terrorist activity.
    The irony being that the Iranians are, of course, not Arab. One interesting aspect of recent Palestinian history is how unpopular they have made themselves with Arab states eg Jordan and Lebanon, both of which expelled them.
    Not to mention the Saudis and most of the Gulf States, having supported Iran. As I said earlier they have few friends.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yep - that's why someone came up with Stichelton (sp).

    Stilton is made in Leicestershire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire - Cropwell Bishop, Colston Bassett, Long Clawson. There used to be a Quenby stilton but it went bust. There is apparently a Melton Mowbray and a Saxelbye one but those must be dairies not where they are made as I have never heard of them.
    The Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Shoppe also sells local Stilton.

    Quenby Hall in Leics claims to be the oldest one, but the De lisle family sold up a few years ago. Their Stilton was very good indeed, but a rather unfortunate incident with Listeria in the USA wiped them out financially:

    https://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/food-poisoning-watch/quenby-hall-blue-stilton-cheese-recalled-due-to-listeria-contamination/

    Which perhaps is why traceability and food standards matter.
    I always preferred Quenby as I thought it was creamier than the others.

    @matt ah yes but you don't seem to see it around as much.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited August 2018
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    O/T: I know Arethra Franklin was the Queen of Soul and all that. But a five hour funeral? Even real Queens don’t get that.

    I was quite taken aback that people were queuing up to see the body in an open coffin. Sounded distinctly ghoulish to me.
    Well, the Irish and Italians often have open coffins the day before or the morning of the funeral for family and friends to say goodbye. So not that ghoulish.

    But doing it for days and changing clothes etc seems vulgarly OTT to me.
    I can just about imagine it with a close relative. But someone famous you probably never met? I think that's weird.
    Same concept as lying in state, isn't it?

    Of course, that can have its embarrassing moments. Who could forget in 1896 the moment Nicephorus Glycas, Bishop of Lesbos, sat up after two days of lying in state and roared, 'What are you all staring at?'
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    O/T: I know Arethra Franklin was the Queen of Soul and all that. But a five hour funeral? Even real Queens don’t get that.

    I was quite taken aback that people were queuing up to see the body in an open coffin. Sounded distinctly ghoulish to me.
    Well, the Irish and Italians often have open coffins the day before or the morning of the funeral for family and friends to say goodbye. So not that ghoulish.

    But doing it for days and changing clothes etc seems vulgarly OTT to me.
    I can just about imagine it with a close relative. But someone famous you probably never met? I think that's weird.
    Same concept as lying in state, isn't it?

    Of course, that can have its embarrassing moments. Who could forget in 1896 the moment Nicephorus Glycas, Bishop of Lesbos, sat up after two days of lying in state and roared, 'What are you ok staring at?'
    Never heard of that. Good story though. Another triumph for the medical profession no doubt.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    notme said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Trump administration is planning to cut all remaining US funding for the main UN programme for Palestinian refugees, with potentially devastating impacts, and is lobbying other countries to follow suit.

    The threat emerged days after the US announced it was withdrawing $200mfrom its main development agency, USAid, for programmes based largely in Gaza where they help tens of thousands of people.

    Whilst it is not obvious why the US is and has been spending so many of its tax dollars on people who insist that they hate them this will be both devastating and destabilising unless someone picks up the slack and the Palestinians seem to have relatively few friends in the Arab world.
    I would say there's a non-trivial risk this will cause a full blown war between Israel and the Palestinians as the Palestinians in desperation try to take water and housing by force.

    Could easily drag in Egypt and Jordan as well.
    They tried that in 1967. The result will be the same.

    You misunderstood my post. I was assuming the Palestinians might attack Egypt and Jordan, not that Egypt and Jordan would attack Israel.
    There are lots of rich Arab states. Why wouldn’t they send money to the Palestinians, if the US cancels its payments? Solidarity and all that.
    I'm sure the Iranians will.

    And I'm sure a condition of increased aid will be a massive increase in Hamas' terrorist activity.
    The irony being that the Iranians are, of course, not Arab. One interesting aspect of recent Palestinian history is how unpopular they have made themselves with Arab states eg Jordan and Lebanon, both of which expelled them.
    Not to mention the Saudis and most of the Gulf States, having supported Iran. As I said earlier they have few friends.
    I wonder why that might be.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    The Evangelicals who lost their money in Trump's casinos voted for the twice-divorced, serial adulterer who in the past was pro-abortion? There is a serious point which is that if Evangelicals did vote for Trump then it was not on religious grounds, since Trump offends everything Evangelicals would claim to stand for, so the label is misleading in this context. If Evangelicals voted for Trump it was for some other shared characteristic -- their states had lost jobs, or were riddled with prescribed opiates, or something else, but not their religion.

    It was the same when they broke for Reagan over Carter: the agnostic divorcé over the guy who taught Sunday School even while President. Religion might provide a convenient label but it is not the important driver of votes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yep - that's why someone came up with Stichelton (sp).

    Stilton is made in Leicestershire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire - Cropwell Bishop, Colston Bassett, Long Clawson. There used to be a Quenby stilton but it went bust. There is apparently a Melton Mowbray and a Saxelbye one but those must be dairies not where they are made as I have never heard of them.
    The Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Shoppe also sells local Stilton.

    Quenby Hall in Leics claims to be the oldest one, but the De lisle family sold up a few years ago. Their Stilton was very good indeed, but a rather unfortunate incident with Listeria in the USA wiped them out financially:

    https://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/food-poisoning-watch/quenby-hall-blue-stilton-cheese-recalled-due-to-listeria-contamination/

    Which perhaps is why traceability and food standards matter.
    I always preferred Quenby as I thought it was creamier than the others.

    @matt ah yes but you don't seem to see it around as much.
    Quenby Hall is a lovely Jacobean House, but the De Lisles were pretty awful, and poor at business too. I am not surprised that they went bust.

    Good cheese though.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited August 2018
    matt said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
    By 'more expensive', you mean low-quality foods fraudulently sold off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    As for innovation: quite the opposite. If producers can't steal and traduce the reputations of existing products, they need to establish their own quality reputations - English sparkling wine being the perfect example.
    Lymeswold is a great example. From Somerset but the cover shot from Leicestershire. Designed by committee. I can't top Wiki: The cheese's creation was hailed by Peter Walker, then Agriculture Minister, who said it would improve the balance of payments by replacing imports and becoming "one of our most successful cheese exports". It didn't.
    I quite liked it. Is that up with pineapple on pizza?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    The Evangelicals who lost their money in Trump's casinos voted for the twice-divorced, serial adulterer who in the past was pro-abortion? There is a serious point which is that if Evangelicals did vote for Trump then it was not on religious grounds, since Trump offends everything Evangelicals would claim to stand for, so the label is misleading in this context. If Evangelicals voted for Trump it was for some other shared characteristic -- their states had lost jobs, or were riddled with prescribed opiates, or something else, but not their religion.

    It was the same when they broke for Reagan over Carter: the agnostic divorcé over the guy who taught Sunday School even while President. Religion might provide a convenient label but it is not the important driver of votes.
    Unless they believed that he might not be an Evangelical but that Hilary and the Democrats were actively hostile to them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    India starting to build a moderately useful lead here. Another 20 runs and they go favourite for the match.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    That is more than 40 runs for the last wicket. In a low scoring game its lethal.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes a quick google informed me that a recent filing means that West Country Farmhouse Cheddar is an exception. Although as someone once said, adding the word "Farmhouse" to anything adds 20% to the sale price.

    Yes, unfortunately 'Cheddar', 'Camembert' and 'Mozzarella' were considered to be past saving as meaningful names. So a lot of people buy what they think is Mozzarella, and are being defrauded; it might bear no relation whatsoever to the real, delicious, thing unless it's Mozzarella di Bufala Campana (the EU-protected denomination).

    Protecting us from these frauds, as far as is practical, is unambiguously one of the really good things the EU has done, with zero downside.
    Lack of innovation and more expensive food are two downsides...
    By 'more expensive', you mean low-quality foods fraudulently sold off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    As for innovation: quite the opposite. If producers can't steal and traduce the reputations of existing products, they need to establish their own quality reputations - English sparkling wine being the perfect example.
    The protectionist cachet adds value above and beyond the product; it doesn’t have to be good, just from X.

    It therefore puts an artificial floor under the prices that natural market competition would eradicate.

    Much like rare books, eh? "Well, it may not be a real 18th century first edition, but it's nicely printed and there aren't many Americanisms in it".
    Good example. If I want to pay extra for a "real 18th century first edition", I can do so.

    If I want to pay 69p for a facsimile ebook version of it, I can do so.

    So long as the labelling is clear there's no problem. The consumer can be informed and choose.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    DavidL said:

    That is more than 40 runs for the last wicket. In a low scoring game its lethal.

    Not good at all. India should end the day ahead.
  • For some reason I'm seeing really big gaps between my paragraphs despite only putting one blank line between them. Its only just started happening and I'm not seeing it on anyone elses which makes it all the more weird. Anyone have any ideas? Or does it look normal to everyone else?

    Test.
  • DavidL said:

    That is more than 40 runs for the last wicket. In a low scoring game its lethal.

    Alternatively this last wicket has got more than England's top 4 batsmen combined.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    The Evangelicals who lost their money in Trump's casinos voted for the twice-divorced, serial adulterer who in the past was pro-abortion? There is a serious point which is that if Evangelicals did vote for Trump then it was not on religious grounds, since Trump offends everything Evangelicals would claim to stand for, so the label is misleading in this context. If Evangelicals voted for Trump it was for some other shared characteristic -- their states had lost jobs, or were riddled with prescribed opiates, or something else, but not their religion.

    It was the same when they broke for Reagan over Carter: the agnostic divorcé over the guy who taught Sunday School even while President. Religion might provide a convenient label but it is not the important driver of votes.
    I think that a fair point, but I do think that US Evangelicals are often like Trump. The Biblical literalism and fervour often misses out on the real fundamentals of Christianity. The unforgiveness, speed to anger, aggression, alcohol, drugs and love of guns is more to do with US Hillbilly Culture.

    Vance gave a good account of the culture and the superficiality of US Evangelism in his prophetic book Hillbily Elegy, published a few months before Trump was elected. It is worth reading:


    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/dec/07/hillbilly-elegy-by-jd-vance-review
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those ba to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled. "English Champagne" doesn't really mislead anyone. It is a champagne style wine made in this country. There is far too much of this geographical exclusivity nonsense.
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yep - that's why someone came up with Stichelton (sp).

    Stilton is made in Leicestershire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire - Cropwell Bishop, Colston Bassett, Long Clawson. There used to be a Quenby stilton but it went bust. There is apparently a Melton Mowbray and a Saxelbye one but those must be dairies not where they are made as I have never heard of them.
    The Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Shoppe also sells local Stilton.

    Quenby Hall in Leics claims to be the oldest one, but the De lisle family sold up a few years ago. Their Stilton was very good indeed, but a rather unfortunate incident with Listeria in the USA wiped them out financially:

    https://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/food-poisoning-watch/quenby-hall-blue-stilton-cheese-recalled-due-to-listeria-contamination/

    Which perhaps is why traceability and food standards matter.
    I always preferred Quenby as I thought it was creamier than the others.

    @matt ah yes but you don't seem to see it around as much.
    Quenby Hall is a lovely Jacobean House, but the De Lisles were pretty awful, and poor at business too. I am not surprised that they went bust.

    Good cheese though.
    You should have snapped it up it was for sale for £10m.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2018


    Good example. If I want to pay extra for a "real 18th century first edition", I can do so.

    If I want to pay 69p for a facsimile ebook version of it, I can do so.

    So long as the labelling is clear there's no problem. The consumer can be informed and choose.

    Exactly. The labelling needs to be clear and accurate, not claiming something is champagne when it isn't, or burgundy when it's Algerian, or a rare 18th century first edition when it's not. It's as simple as that.

    After all, why would anyone sell their cheese as Gorgonzola when it isn't? For a simple reason: because Gorgonzola has a reputation for being a good blue cheese. It's a fraud because it is selling off the back of the reputation of the real thing.
  • Foxy said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those based in Champagne. We could easily allow Champagne to be sold but require a prominent country of origin to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    The critical issue is labelling, as to whether Crimean Champagne, Wisconsin Parmesan or Californian Chablis are labelled correctly. My understanding is that the US food companies prefer slipping their factory made pap under the radar.
    Indeed, I'm all for requiring clear labelling. If someone wants to buy Californian Chablis then so long as it is clearly labelled as such then no fraud is happening.
    Yes there is because Chablis is a place with a specific terroir characterised by high levels of minerality.
    Yes but California is a place too. Consumers are clever enough to know where California is and what country California is in. Again this becomes moot if the EU makes a trade deal with us, but if it doesn't and the US does offer one why shouldn't we offer the choice to consumers of Californian Champagne and Chablis if they want it? Let the consumer decide.

    Or let the EU offer us a good enough trade deal for us to be tempted to agree to GI's.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.


    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Im not good in a crisis
    Why would Jezza overule the local CLP

    He is on the side of the 600,000 not the 172 Chicken Coupers
    313K voted for Corbyn
    193K voted for Smith

    60:40 split.
    62/38

    Likely to have increased now too i would think
    Nah. Went up last year and has been trending down ever since. Give it a year and Cooper might beat him.
    Dont hold your breath


    What policy changes do you want?

    More benefits sanctions more austerity more wars

    Cos Cooper introduced the first supported the 2nd and is a keen advocate for every war you can think of.

    Other than that she is a sit on the fencer.

    Do you prefer coffee or tea Yvette

    Well they both have their merits!!!

    She is completely useless

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2018
    Bloody hell. John McCain's *mother* is at the funeral. 106! Born before the Titanic sank!!

  • Good example. If I want to pay extra for a "real 18th century first edition", I can do so.

    If I want to pay 69p for a facsimile ebook version of it, I can do so.

    So long as the labelling is clear there's no problem. The consumer can be informed and choose.

    Exactly. The labelling needs to be clear, not claiming something is champagne when it isn't, or burgundy when it's Algerian, or a rare 18th century first edition when it's not. It's as simple as that.

    After all, why would anyone sell their cheese as Gorgonzola when it isn't? For a simple reason: because Gorgonzola has a reputation for making good blue cheeses. It's a fraud because it is selling off the back of the reputation of the real thing.
    For many champagne is simply a sparkling wine. If the Californians make a good sparkling wine and want to market it as Californian Champagne why shouldn't they? Any more than the Irish can already get away with making Cheddar. So long as its labelled a wine snob who thinks that only the French make good Champagne won't buy a Californian one. There is no fraud there.
  • For some reason I'm seeing really big gaps between my paragraphs despite only putting one blank line between them. Its only just started happening and I'm not seeing it on anyone elses which makes it all the more weird. Anyone have any ideas? Or does it look normal to everyone else?

    Test.

    Actually seeing it now with bigjohnowls and foxy's most recent posts. Doesn't seem to happen with every post though.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    houndtang said:

    What exactly is Frank Field's position in Labour? I never good work out if he was a principled left winger (anti-EU) or well on the right (welfare reform). I don't think he is exactly a Blairite, he seems perhaps to have more in common with the tradition of Peter Shore.


    His big guiding principle (apart from being anti-EU) is as I recall that he's passionately a universal benefits man, opposed to the withdrawal of benefits as incomes rise, because it introduces a major disincentive to getting a job. I'd think he'd be up for a citizen's income approach. The downside - and the reason it's never been adopted - is that paying the same benefits to the wealthy becomes hugely expensive and feels not really sensible.

    Left-wing, right-wing? Not applicable. He's simply Frank Field. It's entirely characteristic that he hasn't coordinated his resignation with anyone. I like him, and he's definitely always worth considering, though IMO not a natural Minister (because Ministers really do need to consult and compromise).
    It's a shame Corbyn couldn't keep FF on board. He could have intervened in the CLP and solved it in an instant, but didn't. It stuff like that underlines that Corbyn is not the man for the job.

    Universal benefits are currently unpopular, but FF is right.
    FF left because of Lab's anti-semitism. How the F&&k could Corbyn have kept him on board in that light?
    Hired BJO as a crisis manager?
    Im not good in a crisis
    Why would Jezza overule the local CLP

    He is on the side of the 600,000 not the 172 Chicken Coupers
    313K voted for Corbyn
    193K voted for Smith

    60:40 split.
    62/38

    Likely to have increased now too i would think
    Nah. Went up last year and has been trending down ever since. Give it a year and Cooper might beat him.
    Dont hold your breath


    What policy changes do you want?

    More benefits sanctions more austerity more wars

    Cos Cooper introduced the first supported the 2nd and is a keen advocate for every war you can think of.

    Other than that she is a sit on the fencer.

    Do you prefer coffee or tea Yvette

    Well they both have their merits!!!

    She is completely useless

    Says they guy who supports Corbyn who has the fence so far up his arse on Brexit you can barely see it.

    Corbyn will not win. Cooper might.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,015
    Labour's own little DUPer keeping her NI hand in.

    https://twitter.com/PeterKGeoghegan/status/1035566564962168832
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692
    Bumrah had a Test average of 0.8 (5 Outs for 4 Runs) before today.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:


    Absolutely, geographical indicators should expire the second a trade deal expires. They can form part of the new trade deal but they're not part of our settling up and exiting.

    Yeah, British consumers should have the sovereign right to be sold factory crap labelled as Parmesan and sparkling bilge-water labelled as Champagne.
    Yes we should. It isn't to protect our consumers that Champagne is protected, it is to protect the profits of those ba to be displayed, so something could be sold as "English Champagne".

    If the EU wants us to protect Champagne's profits then they can agree a trade deal with us, its that simple.
    Nonsense. The use of names such as Champagne, Stilton, Parmesan to sell products which are imitations at best is quite simply a fraud on the consumer.
    It's only a fraud if they are misled
    The village of Stilton in Cambridgeshire, after which the cheese was named, cannot make Stilton.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilton#Cheese
    Yep - that's why someone came up with Stichelton (sp).

    Stilton is made in Leicestershire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire - Cropwell Bishop, Colston Bassett, Long Clawson. There used to be a Quenby stilton but it went bust. There is apparently a Melton Mowbray and a Saxelbye one but those must be dairies not where they are made as I have never heard of them.
    The Melton Mowbray Pork Pie Shoppe also sells local Stilton.

    Quenby Hall in Leics claims to be the oldest one, but the De lisle family sold up a few years ago. Their Stilton was very good indeed, but a rather unfortunate incident with Listeria in the USA wiped them out financially:

    https://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/food-poisoning-watch/quenby-hall-blue-stilton-cheese-recalled-due-to-listeria-contamination/

    Which perhaps is why traceability and food standards matter.
    I always preferred Quenby as I thought it was creamier than the others.

    @matt ah yes but you don't seem to see it around as much.
    Quenby Hall is a lovely Jacobean House, but the De Lisles were pretty awful, and poor at business too. I am not surprised that they went bust.

    Good cheese though.
    You should have snapped it up it was for sale for £10m.
    Its going to be a hotel/spa, or so the local rumour goes.

    There is the small issue of the new Leicester Southern Bypass going through the grounds!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2018

    For many champagne is simply a sparkling wine. If the Californians make a good sparkling wine and want to market it as Californian Champagne why shouldn't they?.

    Err, because (a) it isn't champagne, and (b) the only possible reason for wanting to use the name is to sell off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    I'm frankly gobsmacked that anyone disagrees with this. I can only assume it's an attitude of 'this is an EU thing so it must be bad by definition'.
  • A bookstore may have a rare first edition 18th century Gulliver's Travels. Or a 19th, 20th or even 21st century Gulliver's Travels. All of them are called Gulliver's Travels. I could make an edition myself today anywhere in the world and sell it and call it Gulliver's Travels as it is out of copyright.

    Only the first edition is allowed to be labelled first edition, just as only French Champagne is allowed to be labelled French. But its all allowed to have the name.

    You can even change the wording, cut out sections, change it into a 10 page children's picture book that can be read in 5 minutes and call it Gulliver's Travels etiher way. The name is no longer protected. Champagne is just a name.

    If the EU wants us to protect their names they can do so in a trade deal just as they've sought with other nations.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    The Evangelicals who lost their money in Trump's casinos voted for the twice-divorced, serial adulterer who in the past was pro-abortion? There is a serious point which is that if Evangelicals did vote for Trump then it was not on religious grounds, since Trump offends everything Evangelicals would claim to stand for, so the label is misleading in this context. If Evangelicals voted for Trump it was for some other shared characteristic -- their states had lost jobs, or were riddled with prescribed opiates, or something else, but not their religion.

    It was the same when they broke for Reagan over Carter: the agnostic divorcé over the guy who taught Sunday School even while President. Religion might provide a convenient label but it is not the important driver of votes.
    Unless they believed that he might not be an Evangelical but that Hilary and the Democrats were actively hostile to them.
    The anti-Hillary explanation does not wash for Evangelical voting because of that thing we all (or at least I usually do) forget, which is that Trump beat all the other Republican candidates in the primaries, almost all of whom would have been a better match on purely religious grounds.

    That is the problem with most accounts of how Trump won. They concentrate on how Trump beat Hillary in the electoral college, while skimming over the far harder question of how Trump won the primaries to represent the Republican Party while being opposed to almost everything that party claims to stand for.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692
    28 lead Unibet have England as favourites
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    England would have taken a first inning deficit of 27 at any point of the game, except the last hour.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    28 lead Unibet have England as favourites

    How many wickets down before we draw level? 2?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    DavidL said:

    28 lead Unibet have England as favourites

    How many wickets down before we draw level? 2?
    But two night watchmen in. They might do better than the openers.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    If you turn England's first innings score card upside down, it looks quite similar to the Indian one.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    For many champagne is simply a sparkling wine. If the Californians make a good sparkling wine and want to market it as Californian Champagne why shouldn't they?.

    Err, because (a) it isn't champagne, and (b) the only possible reason for wanting to use the name is to sell off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    I'm frankly gobsmacked that anyone disagrees with this. I can only assume it's an attitude of 'this is an EU thing so it must be bad by definition'.
    For me, nothing to do with the EU but I am not a fan of additional IP rights. We had that absurd case recently where the NT was trying to force a manufacturer of outdoor clothes wear because they claimed the name of a hill. We had the ridiculous case involving the supermarket Iceland.

    Inventions should be protected and encouraged. Geography, not so much.
  • For many champagne is simply a sparkling wine. If the Californians make a good sparkling wine and want to market it as Californian Champagne why shouldn't they?.

    Err, because (a) it isn't champagne, and (b) the only possible reason for wanting to use the name is to sell off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    I'm frankly gobsmacked that anyone disagrees with this. I can only assume it's an attitude of 'this is an EU thing so it must be bad by definition'.
    B: No, the reason to use it is the same reason as using any genericised trademark. Any company in the UK can produce a Hoover or Sellotape and people understand what it is.

    I've addressed this in my previous post, but protectionism is a bad thing regardless of who's behind it. I'm not especially bothered, I'm prepared to recognise origin names as part of a trade deal. But I'm not prepared to pander to French vinyards without a deal. There's a price to recognising it and that is getting a deal, why you're prepared to sacrifice getting a deal and giving the EU what they want without one is beyond me.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Jonathan said:

    DavidL said:

    28 lead Unibet have England as favourites

    How many wickets down before we draw level? 2?
    But two night watchmen in. They might do better than the openers.
    Cook and Jennings are our nightwatchmen. We need to protect the likes of Curran for tomorrow.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting analysis demonstrates that Trump's base is, essentially, the evangelicals:
    https://www.cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/getting-know-white-voters

    The Evangelicals who lost their money in Trump's casinos voted for the twice-divorced, serial adulterer who in the past was pro-abortion? There is a serious point which is that if Evangelicals did vote for Trump then it was not on religious grounds, since Trump offends everything Evangelicals would claim to stand for, so the label is misleading in this context. If Evangelicals voted for Trump it was for some other shared characteristic -- their states had lost jobs, or were riddled with prescribed opiates, or something else, but not their religion.

    It was the same when they broke for Reagan over Carter: the agnostic divorcé over the guy who taught Sunday School even while President. Religion might provide a convenient label but it is not the important driver of votes.
    Unless they believed that he might not be an Evangelical but that Hilary and the Democrats were actively hostile to them.
    The anti-Hillary explanation does not wash for Evangelical voting because of that thing we all (or at least I usually do) forget, which is that Trump beat all the other Republican candidates in the primaries, almost all of whom would have been a better match on purely religious grounds.

    That is the problem with most accounts of how Trump won. They concentrate on how Trump beat Hillary in the electoral college, while skimming over the far harder question of how Trump won the primaries to represent the Republican Party while being opposed to almost everything that party claims to stand for.
    Can you show that it was the Evangelical vote that delivered him the primaries? As I recall there was some evidence to suggest it mostly went to Cruz, and that those who voted for Trump did so in the belief that he was more likely to win overall.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    DavidL said:

    For many champagne is simply a sparkling wine. If the Californians make a good sparkling wine and want to market it as Californian Champagne why shouldn't they?.

    Err, because (a) it isn't champagne, and (b) the only possible reason for wanting to use the name is to sell off the back of the reputation of the real thing.

    I'm frankly gobsmacked that anyone disagrees with this. I can only assume it's an attitude of 'this is an EU thing so it must be bad by definition'.
    For me, nothing to do with the EU but I am not a fan of additional IP rights. We had that absurd case recently where the NT was trying to force a manufacturer of outdoor clothes wear because they claimed the name of a hill. We had the ridiculous case involving the supermarket Iceland.

    Inventions should be protected and encouraged. Geography, not so much.
    So you'd be cool with a wine from Algeria being sold as Gevrey-Chambertin (as used to happen in the bad old days)? Or apple juice mixed with industrial alcohol being sold as Scotch Whisky?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Jonathan said:

    On days like this you have to love Cricket. England have worked so hard, they deserve to be back in this game. India must be gutted. Let's hope England aren't exhausted.

    They look set to end up with a similar total, but were 86-6 and 189-6. Amazing stuff.

    Just got to get through till stumps.

    Agonising viewing currently.
This discussion has been closed.