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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    .
    .
    I
    I often donate food to our local foodbank. In the absence of any alternatives, it is the only way to help address food poverty.

    However, it has always struck me as a massively inefficient process. Firstly, people like me have to decide what food to buy from the shop and then put it in the box at the supermarket. Then someone has to collect the food (cost) and store it (significant cost), taking account of the fact that most of the food is perishable. It then has to be sorted out, presumably by volunteers.

    OK, if you then need to use the foodbank you need to get to it (either by bus: £4.30 day ticket) or taxi (£10+ round trip), if you don't have a car or access to a car. In our case, it is on the ring road, it is several miles from deprived areas of the town, it isn't somewhere you can easily walk to.

    You then have to wait at the foodbank (lost time you could be doing something more productive, like looking for a job), then recieve some sort of counselling.

    For what? a couple of bags of food? Surely you could buy a weeks worth of very basic food from asda, lidl or aldi for the price of the bus fare to the foodbank (eg bread, cheese, beans, tinned tomatoes, rice, pasta, etc), with these supermarkets also having the advantage of being located within walking distance of the deprived parts of town.

    I would rather fund a system where anyone who is identified as being in food poverty just gets a package of basic food delivered to them by supermarket home delivery. It would surely cost next to nothing. The effort in running the foodbank would be more productively spent teaching people home economics and basic cookery skills. If people still starve after that, then they clearly have mental health problems.

    Am I missing something? Glad to be enlightened by any food bank volunteers on here.
    They do not supply perishable food for straters, it is always food that has a life span , most going to the foodbank would not be taking bus or taxi , they would be walking. If it was as easy as you imagine to get a job they would not be standing in foodbank queue.
    PS: not speaking as a volunteer just thought about it for a few minutes. Lots of "fat and happy" people on here do not seem to know much about what life is like at the bottom of the pile. Not many poor people posting here methinks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Not often England clean up a tail like that. Difficult conditions for the openers this morning.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Andrew said:

    Quite astounding how weirdly good the employment stats remain.

    Indeed. Even accepting that a large number of them are pretty crappy jobs, it's pretty amazing we came through the worst economic crash since the depression and unemployment only peaked at ?1.6million, or whatever it was. I thought at the time it'd be 3 million bare minimum.
    And Blanchflower, who claims to be a labour market economist, said 5m. What I find even more remarkable is that many countries who were less directly affected by the GFC because they had much smaller financial services industries were very badly hit with unemployment and are still struggling to recover 10 years on. Some of this can be put down to ECB incompetence and German intransigence but it is still odd.

    My provisional, and somewhat optimistic, view is that the UK has significant advantages in a very flexible labour market and the ability to control our own stabilisers. If true this bodes well for our future.
    David, why not just say zero hours contracts, it is a fiddle. They just massage how they count them.
    PS: Those other countries have welfare states and care about their people so they don't create low paid jobs that people are forced to take despite not being able to live on the pittance paid.
    Actually bar France, Germany, the Benelux and Nordic countries, Ireland and arguably Australia and New Zealand the UK even now has a more generous welfare system than virtually anywhere else in the world and we also have a much lower contributory element
    So bar most of the developed world we are are generous
    No. The USA for example has no universal state healthcare.

    In Canada, the USA, Japan, Italy and Spain the only unemployment benefits you can get are those which have been contributed to out of a national insurance system unlike our non contributory JSA. Benefits also tend to be time limited.


    If people want to complain about foodbanks here, they should try the USA!

    Pity the Tories are trying to emulate the USA instead of copying the Nordics.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    \

    Not an expert but be a long way to India in a helicopter, not sure they would be up to it or at best would be knackered and out of service by time they arrived. I expect they are like planes and need extensive checks after a fixed number of hours flying. Typical range is 300 miles unless fitted with extra internal tanks etc.

    Flying Chinooks to India (presumably via Ramstein, Souda Bay, Jordan, Oman, etc.)? WTF? This the best idea yet. There would be a trail of broken CH-47s across Europe, ME and Central Asia with technical issues.

    The limiting factor in this relief operation probably isn't availability of RW platforms but air base capacity. The Indian Air Force's bases are largely positioned with a view to fighting Pakistan. ie in the centre and north of the country. The closest Indian Air Force base is Pune which isn't that close. INS Hansa in Goa is slightly closer but still not ideal. There is a NAE at Kochin airport which will be little more than a shed.
    Hence my post on David's jocular comment that they could fly.
    That seems to have been taken a bit more seriously than I intended but it has been informative none the less.
    Indeed David.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    Indeed. Food Banks are a good thing as whether the economy is growing or declining there will always be some in hard times
    You’ve obviously never had to use one. Heartless.
    It is better to be in hard times and have the food bank available than to be in hard times and not have it available. Food banks are no different in that respect than a safety net. Why would you support safety nets but be against food banks? You're the heartless one.
    It is also totally demeaning to all those thousands of caring people who support foodbanks with their time, to just paint them as Tory stooges.

    Perhaps they just shouldn't bother?

    To suggets that food poverty was not a problem until 2010 is crass in the extreme. Those who use foodbanks as political footballs really are the heartless bastards. I take it as a great thing that there is increased provision of foodbanks. The alternative is hungry people. Who wants that?
    The alternative would be the government doing what they are elected for, the people are hungry due to heartless Tory policies. Only a smug comfortable overfed Tory could see it as a great thing that thousands have to volunteer and beg for food donations to help starving people.
    People are hungry for a whole raft of reasons - and need to use food banks for a variety of reasons. Some spend their money on drugs. Some gamble it away. Some are piss-poor at budgeting. Some buy too much tat they don't need. Some have too many kids they can't afford. Some people have no idea how to cook a meal from basic, cheap ingredients.

    A Corbyn Govt. that robbed the rich til the pips squeaked could pour money into these people - and it would still not help to feed these folk, or their kids.

    How are these people going hungry due to "hearltess Tory policies"? I am still very happy that an extended set of foodbanks gives those people somewhere to get food, for themselves and their kids whilst they sort their lives out.

    Or maybe we could let them eat turnips, eh?

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    malcolmg said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    .
    .
    I
    I often donate food to our local foodbank. In the absence of any alternatives, it is the only way to help address food poverty.

    However, it has always struck me as a massively inefficient process. Firstly, people like me have to decide what food to buy from the shop and then put it in the box at the supermarket. Then someone has to collect the food (cost) and store it (significant cost), taking account of the fact that most of the food is perishable. It then has to be sorted out, presumably by volunteers.

    OK, if you then need to use the foodbank you need to get to it (either by bus: £4.30 day ticket) or taxi (£10+ round trip), if you don't have a car or access to a car. In our case, it is on the ring road, it is several miles from deprived areas of the town, it isn't somewhere you can easily walk to.

    You then have to wait at the foodbank (lost time you could be doing something more productive, like looking for a job), then recieve some sort of counselling.

    snip

    I would rather fund a system where anyone who is identified as being in food poverty just gets a package of basic food delivered to them by supermarket home delivery. It would surely cost next to nothing. The effort in running the foodbank would be more productively spent teaching people home economics and basic cookery skills. If people still starve after that, then they clearly have mental health problems.

    Am I missing something? Glad to be enlightened by any food bank volunteers on here.
    They do not supply perishable food for straters, it is always food that has a life span , most going to the foodbank would not be taking bus or taxi , they would be walking. If it was as easy as you imagine to get a job they would not be standing in foodbank queue.
    PS: not speaking as a volunteer just thought about it for a few minutes. Lots of "fat and happy" people on here do not seem to know much about what life is like at the bottom of the pile. Not many poor people posting here methinks.
    If you want to know what poverty is like at the sharp end, then Darren McGarvey's 'Poverty Safari' is a brilliant and searing account. Winner of Orwell prize.
  • HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    Indeed. Food Banks are a good thing as whether the economy is growing or declining there will always be some in hard times
    You’ve obviously never had to use one. Heartless.
    It is better to be in hard times and have the food bank available than to be in hard times and not have it available. Food banks are no different in that respect than a safety net. Why would you support safety nets but be against food banks? You're the heartless one.
    People would rather have the dignity of having enough money to buy food for themselves and their children rather than rely on charitable handouts.

    Humanity isn’t your specialist subject, is it?
    Absolutely people would rather that but people fall on hard times. Hence why safety nets are a good thing. People supporting themselves is of course preferable but if it's not possible then having handouts is better than not doing so.

    You think people would rather go hungry than have help available when hard times come? Humanity isn't your specialist subject, is it?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    Indeed. Food Banks are a good thing as whether the economy is growing or declining there will always be some in hard times
    You’ve obviously never had to use one. Heartless.
    It is better to be in hard times and have the food bank available than to be in hard times and not have it available. Food banks are no different in that respect than a safety net. Why would you support safety nets but be against food banks? You're the heartless one.
    It is also totally demeaning to all those thousands of caring people who support foodbanks with their time, to just paint them as Tory stooges.

    Perhaps they just shouldn't bother?

    To suggets that food poverty was not a problem until 2010 is crass in the extreme. Those who use foodbanks as political footballs really are the heartless bastards. I take it as a great thing that there is increased provision of foodbanks. The alternative is hungry people. Who wants that?
    The alternative would be the government doing what they are elected for, the people are hungry due to heartless Tory policies. Only a smug comfortable overfed Tory could see it as a great thing that thousands have to volunteer and beg for food donations to help starving people.
    People are hungry for a whole raft of reasons - and need to use food banks for a variety of reasons. Some spend their money on drugs. Some gamble it away. Some are piss-poor at budgeting. Some buy too much tat they don't need. Some have too many kids they can't afford. Some people have no idea how to cook a meal from basic, cheap ingredients.

    A Corbyn Govt. that robbed the rich til the pips squeaked could pour money into these people - and it would still not help to feed these folk, or their kids.

    How are these people going hungry due to "hearltess Tory policies"? I am still very happy that an extended set of foodbanks gives those people somewhere to get food, for themselves and their kids whilst they sort their lives out.

    Or maybe we could let them eat turnips, eh?

    Nutritious and good for their health unlike Tories for sure, good idea.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Let's see if we can get 10 from every over!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I've just been speaking to someone about Jim Sheridan's latest slip-of-the-finger. Not something discussed on here I think?

    It'll be interesting to see which way the famed 'Jewish Vote' splits if the Tories end up being led by the Boris/Bannon combo.

    I could hazard a pretty good guess.
  • malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Food Banks are a good thing

    Can you let us know how 'food banks are a good thing' goes down on the doorsteps during your next tussle with the electorate?

    Once upon a time the DWP or the DHSS or similar used to be able to give emergency grants for food.
    Mrs May talked about the Tories being the Nasty Party; seems to me they’ve metamorphosed into the Cruel Party.
    So the need was always there.

    How is it any better to need to go through a bureaucratic emergency grant process than to have the food readily available?
    Food begged off the public to save the government doing their job , another "I am all right jack cosy Tory" viewpoint.
    Emergency grants are begged for too. Better support readily available than needing to beg a bureaucrat. You're the one who is "I am alright Jack" if you think hard times don't happen and safety nets shouldn't be there.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    Indeed. Food Banks are a good thing as whether the economy is growing or declining there will always be some in hard times
    You’ve obviously never had to use one. Heartless.
    It is better to be in hard times and have the food bank available than to be in hard times and not have it available. Food banks are no different in that respect than a safety net. Why would you support safety nets but be against food banks? You're the heartless one.
    It is also totally demeaning to all those thousands of caring people who support foodbanks with their time, to just paint them as Tory stooges.

    Perhaps they just shouldn't bother?

    To suggets that food poverty was not a problem until 2010 is crass in the extreme. Those who use foodbanks as political footballs really are the heartless bastards. I take it as a great thing that there is increased provision of foodbanks. The alternative is hungry people. Who wants that?
    The alternative would be the government doing what they are elected for, the people are hungry due to heartless Tory policies. Only a smug comfortable overfed Tory could see it as a great thing that thousands have to volunteer and beg for food donations to help starving people.
    People are hungry for a whole raft of reasons - and need to use food banks for a variety of reasons. Some spend their money on drugs. Some gamble it away. Some are piss-poor at budgeting. Some buy too much tat they don't need. Some have too many kids they can't afford. Some people have no idea how to cook a meal from basic, cheap ingredients.

    A Corbyn Govt. that robbed the rich til the pips squeaked could pour money into these people - and it would still not help to feed these folk, or their kids.

    How are these people going hungry due to "hearltess Tory policies"? I am still very happy that an extended set of foodbanks gives those people somewhere to get food, for themselves and their kids whilst they sort their lives out.

    Or maybe we could let them eat turnips, eh?

    Nutritious and good for their health unlike Tories for sure, good idea.
    Yep, I would really not recommend eating Tories, way too high a fat content.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    malcolmg said:


    They do not supply perishable food for straters, it is always food that has a life span , most going to the foodbank would not be taking bus or taxi , they would be walking. If it was as easy as you imagine to get a job they would not be standing in foodbank queue.
    PS: not speaking as a volunteer just thought about it for a few minutes. Lots of "fat and happy" people on here do not seem to know much about what life is like at the bottom of the pile. Not many poor people posting here methinks.

    No way of telling for sure of course, but it'd be interesting to see just how many of the foodbank fanbois have actually donated to a food bank.
  • Full House!

    I did think of saying Corbyn's critics are as well organised as the people delivering the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2018
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Andrew said:

    Quite astounding how weirdly good the employment stats remain.

    Indeed. Even accepting that a large number of them are pretty crappy jobs, it's pretty amazing we came through the worst economic crash since the depression and unemployment only peaked at ?1.6million, or whatever it was. I thought at the time it'd be 3 million bare minimum.
    And Blanchflower, who claims to be a labour market economist, said 5m. What I find even more remarkable is that many countries who were less directly affected by the GFC because they had much smaller financial services industries were very badly hit with unemployment and are still struggling to recover 10 years on. Some of this can be put down to ECB incompetence and German intransigence but it is still odd.

    My provisional, and somewhat optimistic, view is that the UK has significant advantages in a very flexible labour market and the ability to control our own stabilisers. If true this bodes well for our future.
    David, why not just say zero hours contracts, it is a fiddle. They just massage how they count them.
    PS: Those other countries have welfare states and care about their people so they don't create low paid jobs that people are forced to take despite not being able to live on the pittance paid.
    Actually bar France, Germany, the Benelux and Nordic countries, Ireland and arguably Australia and New Zealand the UK even now has a more generous welfare system than virtually anywhere else in the world and we also have a much lower contributory element
    So bar most of the developed world we are are generous
    No. The USA for example has no universal state healthcare.

    In Canada, the USA, Japan, Italy and Spain the only unemployment benefits you can get are those which have been contributed to out of a national insurance system unlike our non contributory JSA. Benefits also tend to be time limited.


    If people want to complain about foodbanks here, they should try the USA!

    Pity the Tories are trying to emulate the USA instead of copying the Nordics.
    No they aren't, otherwise they would have abolished the NHS ages ago and replaced it with a mainly private health insurance system and also abolished non contributory income based JSA.

    The free schools idea Gove came up with came from Sweden
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880


    Other countries start from the presumption in any industry that home suppliers are best. Even with the EU rules, are the Berlin police driving Peugeots or the Paris police driving BMWs? I see both round here.

    I've seen the Gendarmerie in 4 series Beemers and Imprezas.
  • malcolmg said:


    They do not supply perishable food for straters, it is always food that has a life span , most going to the foodbank would not be taking bus or taxi , they would be walking. If it was as easy as you imagine to get a job they would not be standing in foodbank queue.
    PS: not speaking as a volunteer just thought about it for a few minutes. Lots of "fat and happy" people on here do not seem to know much about what life is like at the bottom of the pile. Not many poor people posting here methinks.

    No way of telling for sure of course, but it'd be interesting to see just how many of the foodbank fanbois have actually donated to a food bank.
    I have.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    Indeed. Food Banks are a good thing as whether the economy is growing or declining there will always be some in hard times
    You’ve obviously never had to use one. Heartless.
    It is better to be in hard times and have the food bank available than to be in hard times and not have it available. Food banks are no different in that respect than a safety net. Why would you support safety nets but be against food banks? You're the heartless one.
    It is also totally demeaning to all those thousands of caring people who support foodbanks with their time, to just paint them as Tory stooges.

    Perhaps they just shouldn't bother?

    To suggets that food poverty was not a problem until 2010 is crass in the extreme. Those who use foodbanks as political footballs really are the heartless bastards. I take it as a great thing that there is increased provision of foodbanks. The alternative is hungry people. Who wants that?
    The alternative would be the government doing what they are elected for, the people are hungry due to heartless Tory policies. Only a smug comfortable overfed Tory could see it as a great thing that thousands have to volunteer and beg for food donations to help starving people.
    People are hungry for a whole raft of reasons - and need to use food banks for a variety of reasons. Some spend their money on drugs. Some gamble it away. Some are piss-poor at budgeting. Some buy too much tat they don't need. Some have too many kids they can't afford. Some people have no idea how to cook a meal from basic, cheap ingredients.

    A Corbyn Govt. that robbed the rich til the pips squeaked could pour money into these people - and it would still not help to feed these folk, or their kids.

    How are these people going hungry due to "hearltess Tory policies"? I am still very happy that an extended set of foodbanks gives those people somewhere to get food, for themselves and their kids whilst they sort their lives out.

    Or maybe we could let them eat turnips, eh?

    Nutritious and good for their health unlike Tories for sure, good idea.
    Yep, I would really not recommend eating Tories, way too high a fat content.
    It's all the babies we consume....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2018
    HYUFD said:


    40% back leaving next March with or without a deal, 31% want an in out referendum, 15% want a referendum but only on the terms of the deal.


    62% have not changed their minds on Brexit, only 15% of Remainers and 11% of Leavers have

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7047947/british-voters-give-brexit-verdict/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2018
    Sun poll.
    imageimage
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Presumably the other 17% asked the 29th March question just resorted to violence against the questioner?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Roger said:

    I've just been speaking to someone about Jim Sheridan's latest slip-of-the-finger. Not something discussed on here I think?

    It'll be interesting to see which way the famed 'Jewish Vote' splits if the Tories end up being led by the Boris/Bannon combo.

    I could hazard a pretty good guess.

    TUD mentioned it but the constant stream of Tory Officials racist rants north of the border are ignored on here, too busy cooing about the windbag Ruthie.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2018

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Andrew said:

    Quite astounding how weirdly good the employment stats remain.

    Indeed. Even accepting that a large number of them are pretty crappy jobs, it's pretty amazing we came through the worst economic crash since the depression and unemployment only peaked at ?1.6million, or whatever it was. I thought at the time it'd be 3 million bare minimum.
    And Blanchflower, who claims to be a labour market economist, said 5m. What I find even more remarkable is that many countries who were less directly affected by the GFC because they had much smaller financial services industries were very badly hit with unemployment and are still struggling to recover 10 years on. Some of this can be put down to ECB incompetence and German intransigence but it is still odd.

    My provisional, and somewhat optimistic, view is that the UK has significant advantages in a very flexible labour market and the ability to control our own stabilisers. If true this bodes well for our future.
    David, why not just say zero hours contracts, it is a fiddle. They just massage how they count them.
    PS: Those other countries have welfare states and care about their people so they don't create low paid jobs that people are forced to take despite not being able to live on the pittance paid.
    Actually bar France, Germany, the Benelux and Nordic countries, Ireland and arguably Australia and New Zealand the UK even now has a more generous welfare system than virtually anywhere else in the world and we also have a much lower contributory element
    So bar most of the developed world we are are generous
    No. The USA for example has no universal state healthcare.

    In Canada, the USA, Japan, Italy and Spain the only unemployment benefits you can get are those which have been contributed to out of a national insurance system unlike our non contributory JSA. Benefits also tend to be time limited.


    If people want to complain about foodbanks here, they should try the USA!

    Pity the Tories are trying to emulate the USA instead of copying the Nordics.
    No they aren't, otherwise they would have abolished the NHS ages ago and replaced it with a mainly private health insurance system and also abolished non contributory income based JSA.

    The free schools idea Gove came up with came from Sweden
    NHS England is on its way for sure and free schools , give me a break , you cannot be that stupid.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Not if "Have you changed your mind?" is left undefined, and not if you don't ask people who say they don't know whether they've changed their minds how they'd vote.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Probably in favour of the deal, over no deal.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Food Banks are a good thing

    Can you let us know how 'food banks are a good thing' goes down on the doorsteps during your next tussle with the electorate?

    Once upon a time the DWP or the DHSS or similar used to be able to give emergency grants for food.
    Mrs May talked about the Tories being the Nasty Party; seems to me they’ve metamorphosed into the Cruel Party.
    So the need was always there.

    How is it any better to need to go through a bureaucratic emergency grant process than to have the food readily available?
    Food begged off the public to save the government doing their job , another "I am all right jack cosy Tory" viewpoint.
    Emergency grants are begged for too. Better support readily available than needing to beg a bureaucrat. You're the one who is "I am alright Jack" if you think hard times don't happen and safety nets shouldn't be there.
    Far better they get an emergency grant that has to be paid back than foodbanks for sure.
  • William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346
    I think people greatly overestimate how much Corbyn cares about Brexit one way or another. Everything he's done since becoming leader has suggested that its a low priority for him, something he's quite willing to leave in the hands of those people in the party who actually do care. I can't really see Corbyn going this year, but Brexit's got little to with it
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Assuming this is a balanced panel, which might be quite an assumption.

    I did like the question should Junker:

    (a) be boiled in oil - 35%
    (b) be boiled in his wine collection -62%
    (c) donated to a foodbank -3%.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, the people who cry "food banks!!" would rather the poor starve - and that the food gets taken to the landfill. Heartless bastards.

    Indeed. Food Banks are a good thing as whether the economy is growing or declining there will always be some in hard times
    You’ve obviously never had to use one. Heartless.
    It is better to be in hard times and have the food bank available than to be in hard times and not have it available. Food banks are no different in that respect than a safety net. Why would you support safety nets but be against food banks? You're the heartless one.
    People would rather have the dignity of having enough money to buy food for themselves and their children rather than rely on charitable handouts.

    Humanity isn’t your specialist subject, is it?
    Sure, people would like "the dignity of having enough money to buy food for themselves and their children rather than rely on charitable handouts." Tell that to the kids of drug addicts. Gamblers. The mentally ill. The inadeqaute at handling money. Those abandoned by a parent, who don't pay maintenance.

    For 7 years, my sister and I were brought up by our mother in real poverty. I have more experience of poverty than almost everyone on here. She still - somehow - managed to have food for us.

    My mother would have had an easier life if there were foodbanks back then, for sure.

    Nobody of any political persuausion wants hunger used as any form of political weapon. So stop with stockpiling "humanity" just on your side of the fence.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited August 2018
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Presumably the other 17% asked the 29th March question just resorted to violence against the questioner?
    Maybe the Sun forgot to use a calculator :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Assuming this is a balanced panel, which might be quite an assumption.

    I did like the question should Junker:

    (a) be boiled in oil - 35%
    (b) be boiled in his wine collection -62%
    (c) donated to a foodbank -3%.
    Very generous with b over a
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    25% don't know if they've changed their mind. lol!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Andrew said:

    Quite astounding how weirdly good the employment stats remain.

    Indeed. Even accepting that a large number of them are pretty crappy jobs, it's pretty amazing we came through the worst economic crash since the depression and unemployment only peaked at ?1.6million, or whatever it was. I thought at the time it'd be 3 million bare minimum.
    And Blanchflower, who claims to be a labour market economist, said 5m. What I find even more remarkable is that many countries who were less directly affected by the GFC because they had much smaller financial services industries were very badly hit with unemployment and are still struggling to recover 10 years on. Some of this can be put down to ECB incompetence and German intransigence but it is still odd.

    My provisional, and somewhat optimistic, view is that the UK has significant advantages in a very flexible labour market and the ability to control our own stabilisers. If true this bodes well for our future.
    David, why not just say zero hours contracts, it is a fiddle. They just massage how they count them.
    PS: Those other countries have welfare states and care about their people so they don't create low paid jobs that people are forced to take despite not being able to live on the pittance paid.
    Actually bar France, Germany, the Benelux and Nordic countries, Ireland and arguably Australia and New Zealand the UK even now has a more generous welfare system than virtually anywhere else in the world and we also have a much lower contributory element
    So bar most of the developed world we are are generous
    No. The USA for example has no universal state healthcare.

    In Canada, the USA, Japan, Italy and Spain the only unemployment benefits you can get are those which have been contributed to out of a national insurance system unlike our non contributory JSA. Benefits also tend to be time limited.


    If people want to complain about foodbanks here, they should try the USA!

    Pity the Tories are trying to emulate the USA instead of copying the Nordics.
    No they aren'hools idea Gove came up with came from Sweden
    NHS England is on its way for sure and free schools , give me a break , you cannot be that stupid.
    There is no evidence at all the Tories are introducing a mainly private health insurance system to replace NHS England
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Probably in favour of the deal, over no deal.
    Interesting there is only support for a referendum over Leave with or without a Deal if you combine support for a referendum on the deal with support for an in-out referendum.


    Support for leaving with or without a Deal beats support for a second in-out referendum alone
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    25% don't know if they've changed their mind. lol!
    Well in fairness it was 18 months ago and they have probably hardly thought about it since.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Food Banks are a good thing

    Can you let us know how 'food banks are a good thing' goes down on the doorsteps during your next tussle with the electorate?

    Once upon a time the DWP or the DHSS or similar used to be able to give emergency grants for food.
    Mrs May talked about the Tories being the Nasty Party; seems to me they’ve metamorphosed into the Cruel Party.
    So the need was always there.

    How is it any better to need to go through a bureaucratic emergency grant process than to have the food readily available?
    Food begged off the public to save the government doing their job , another "I am all right jack cosy Tory" viewpoint.
    Emergency grants are begged for too. Better support readily available than needing to beg a bureaucrat. You're the one who is "I am alright Jack" if you think hard times don't happen and safety nets shouldn't be there.
    Far better they get an emergency grant that has to be paid back than foodbanks for sure.
    A grant that has to be paid back is debt. You think it's far better to put those already struggling into debt than to give them help that doesn't need repaying? And you have the gall to call me alright Jack.

    I'd far rather give those who are struggling and need food some food than give those who are struggling and need food some more debt instead. Debt is not the solution.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    That was a long way from comfortable for the openers but 46 on the board already. Suddenly 329 not looking quite so daunting.
  • DavidL said:

    That was a long way from comfortable for the openers but 46 on the board already. Suddenly 329 not looking quite so daunting.

    329 should normally be about par on a Test surely nowadays? Not daunting.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Food Banks are a good thing

    Can you let us know how 'food banks are a good thing' goes down on the doorsteps during your next tussle with the electorate?

    Once upon a time the DWP or the DHSS or similar used to be able to give emergency grants for food.
    Mrs May talked about the Tories being the Nasty Party; seems to me they’ve metamorphosed into the Cruel Party.
    So the need was always there.

    How is it any better to need to go through a bureaucratic emergency grant process than to have the food readily available?
    Food begged off the public to save the government doing their job , another "I am all right jack cosy Tory" viewpoint.
    Emergency grants are begged for too. Better support readily available than needing to beg a bureaucrat. You're the one who is "I am alright Jack" if you think hard times don't happen and safety nets shouldn't be there.
    Far better they get an emergency grant that has to be paid back than foodbanks for sure.
    A grant that has to be paid back is debt. You think it's far better to put those already struggling into debt than to give them help that doesn't need repaying? And you have the gall to call me alright Jack.

    I'd far rather give those who are struggling and need food some food than give those who are struggling and need food some more debt instead. Debt is not the solution.
    +1
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    25% don't know if they've changed their mind. lol!
    Well in fairness it was 18 months ago and they have probably hardly thought about it since.
    There is also the issue of false recall. People do not like to admit being wrong.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Not if "Have you changed your mind?" is left undefined, and not if you don't ask people who say they don't know whether they've changed their minds how they'd vote.
    A Sun poll or a Sun READERS poll
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Not if "Have you changed your mind?" is left undefined, and not if you don't ask people who say they don't know whether they've changed their minds how they'd vote.
    A Sun poll or a Sun READERS poll
    A Delta poll commissioned by the Sun of 1900 voters
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    DavidL said:

    That was a long way from comfortable for the openers but 46 on the board already. Suddenly 329 not looking quite so daunting.

    329 should normally be about par on a Test surely nowadays? Not daunting.
    Been out and pleasantly surprised to see that the India tail folded like a traditional English batting collapse... and that our openers made it to lunch unscathed.
    We could actually win this - though Stokes for Curran still looks like a mistake, irrespective of any conduct issues. (Waits for him to confound me by making a rapid fire century and take 5 wickets in India’s second innings.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    25% don't know if they've changed their mind. lol!
    I think that's probably for those suffering Bregret, but are uncertain if it is enough to mean they would change their mind push come to shove.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Which bears no relation whatever to my personal experience.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Which bears no relation whatever to my personal experience.
    Then maybe you need to get out the bubble more!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    No, because even if the rest is correctly reported, the electorate changes. Typically, right-wingers die, left-wingers reach voting age, and left-wingers in between become more right-wing. I'd expect these effects would be more pronounced with Brexit, because there's even more of a young-old split.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Which bears no relation whatever to my personal experience.
    Then maybe you need to get out the bubble more!
    In my bubble no-one knows whether they've changed their mind or not.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Laying off my stake on England at 1.75. Was 2.8 this morning, all green now :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Which bears no relation whatever to my personal experience.
    Try the Midlands, the Welsh borders, Cornwall, the North East, the Kent Coast or Essex and you will find a clear majority still staunch Leavers
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Food Banks are a good thing

    Can you let us know how 'food banks are a good thing' goes down on the doorsteps during your next tussle with the electorate?

    Once upon a time the DWP or the DHSS or similar used to be able to give emergency grants for food.
    Mrs May talked about the Tories being the Nasty Party; seems to me they’ve metamorphosed into the Cruel Party.
    So Labour would now ban food banks and you get your DWP handout and nothing else?
    I have no idea what Labour would do; I’m not a party member. Not even a regular Labour voter.
    That is though the leftist mindset ie charity is a symptom of the fact the state provided welfare state is not big enough
    The answer is reasonably paid jobs and reasonable, affordable housing. I became politically aware in the 50’s and while there was quite a lot of poor housing, public policy was to sort it out, not make the situation worse.
    That would be why the Tories (and to be fair the LDs) raised the minimum wage and took the lowest paid out of tax. That would be why councils across the country are agreeing Local Plans to build more affordable housing.
    Local Plans? Developers land bank and don't build when they have permission. Then eventually build houses for buy to let. We can't stop developers because the developers charter overrules all.

    Essentially the only way to stop developers building houses is to let them build houses....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    No, because even if the rest is correctly reported, the electorate changes. Typically, right-wingers die, left-wingers reach voting age, and left-wingers in between become more right-wing. I'd expect these effects would be more pronounced with Brexit, because there's even more of a young-old split.
    So you are saying Remainers have to rely on Brexiteers dying and young Remainers replacing them?

    Even then the poll has 40% backing leaving next March with or without a deal and only 31% backing a second in out referendum
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Which bears no relation whatever to my personal experience.
    Try the Midlands, the Welsh borders, Cornwall, the North East, the Kent Coast or Essex and you will find a clear majority still staunch Leavers
    The large People's Vote poll analysis shows Ipswich, Colchester and Chelmsford have all flipped to Remain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Food Banks are a good thing

    Can you let us know how 'food banks are a good thing' goes down on the doorsteps during your next tussle with the electorate?

    Once upon a time the DWP or the DHSS or similar used to be able to give emergency grants for food.
    Mrs May talked about the Tories being the Nasty Party; seems to me they’ve metamorphosed into the Cruel Party.
    So Labour would now ban food banks and you get your DWP handout and nothing else?
    I have no idea what Labour would do; I’m not a party member. Not even a regular Labour voter.
    That is though the leftist mindset ie charity is a symptom of the fact the state provided welfare state is not big enough
    The answer is reasonably paid jobs and reasonable, affordable housing. I became politically aware in the 50’s and while there was quite a lot of poor housing, public policy was to sort it out, not make the situation worse.
    That would be why the Tories (and to be fair the LDs) raised the minimum wage and took the lowest paid out of tax. That would be why councils across the country are agreeing Local Plans to build more affordable housing.
    Local Plans? Developers land bank and don't build when they have permission. Then eventually build houses for buy to let. We can't stop developers because the developers charter overrules all.

    Essentially the only way to stop developers building houses is to let them build houses....
    Without Local Plans Developers can build where and what they like, infuriating local residents and doing virtually nothing to get more people on the housing ladder at the same time as inevitably they will mainly build luxury flats or expensive detached family homes which will have the highest price and can make the most profit for them
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Not if "Have you changed your mind?" is left undefined, and not if you don't ask people who say they don't know whether they've changed their minds how they'd vote.
    A Sun poll or a Sun READERS poll
    A Delta poll commissioned by the Sun of 1900 voters
    I'm looking on the Deltapoll site http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/ and its twitter feed https://twitter.com/deltapolluk?lang=en but I can't find the bloody thing. Has anybody got a linky to the poll itself? (not a newspaper article)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Which bears no relation whatever to my personal experience.
    Try the Midlands, the Welsh borders, Cornwall, the North East, the Kent Coast or Essex and you will find a clear majority still staunch Leavers
    The large People's Vote poll analysis shows Ipswich, Colchester and Chelmsford have all flipped to Remain.
    Even the People's Vote poll analysis (reliant as it was on a 53% Remain 47% Leave national vote anyway) had seats from Bishop Auckland to Stoke and Dudley and Nuneaton and North Cornwall and Brecon and Radnor and Thanet and Tonbridge and Sevenoaks and Basildon, Harlow, Saffron Walden and Thurrock all still backing Leave
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:



    Then maybe you need to get out the bubble more!

    Maybe so. But I mix with a fair cross section of people and I've only heard people worrying about the consequences of leaving.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    viewcode said:



    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Not if "Have you changed your mind?" is left undefined, and not if you don't ask people who say they don't know whether they've changed their minds how they'd vote.
    A Sun poll or a Sun READERS poll
    A Delta poll commissioned by the Sun of 1900 voters
    I'm looking on the Deltapoll site http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/ and its twitter feed https://twitter.com/deltapolluk?lang=en but I can't find the bloody thing. Has anybody got a linky to the poll itself? (not a newspaper article)
    The poll overall figures are in the Sun, you almost always have to wait at least a day for the full poll figures from any newspaper poll to be published on the pollsters website so it will not be up until at least tomorrow on the Deltapoll site
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:



    Then maybe you need to get out the bubble more!

    Maybe so. But I mix with a fair cross section of people and I've only heard people worrying about the consequences of leaving.
    Mainly Remain voters no doubt
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:



    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Not if "Have you changed your mind?" is left undefined, and not if you don't ask people who say they don't know whether they've changed their minds how they'd vote.
    A Sun poll or a Sun READERS poll
    A Delta poll commissioned by the Sun of 1900 voters
    I'm looking on the Deltapoll site http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/ and its twitter feed https://twitter.com/deltapolluk?lang=en but I can't find the bloody thing. Has anybody got a linky to the poll itself? (not a newspaper article)
    The poll overall figures are in the Sun, you almost always have to wait at least a day for the full poll figures from any newspaper poll to be published on the pollsters website so it will not be up until at least tomorrow on the Deltapoll site
    Thank you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:



    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Not if "Have you changed your mind?" is left undefined, and not if you don't ask people who say they don't know whether they've changed their minds how they'd vote.
    A Sun poll or a Sun READERS poll
    A Delta poll commissioned by the Sun of 1900 voters
    I'm looking on the Deltapoll site http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/ and its twitter feed https://twitter.com/deltapolluk?lang=en but I can't find the bloody thing. Has anybody got a linky to the poll itself? (not a newspaper article)
    The poll overall figures are in the Sun, you almost always have to wait at least a day for the full poll figures from any newspaper poll to be published on the pollsters website so it will not be up until at least tomorrow on the Deltapoll site
    Thank you.
    Thanks and check back then
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    No, because even if the rest is correctly reported, the electorate changes. Typically, right-wingers die, left-wingers reach voting age, and left-wingers in between become more right-wing. I'd expect these effects would be more pronounced with Brexit, because there's even more of a young-old split.
    So you are saying Remainers have to rely on Brexiteers dying and young Remainers replacing them?
    The liberal/left side always has to rely on that, it counteracts people getting more conservative as they get older. If you want to phrase the other side unfavourably you could say conservatives have to rely on people getting old and mentally inflexible and increasingly senile, but aside from all the tub-thumping twattery the statistical fact is that you can't gauge public opinion just by looking at how the same voters change their minds, because the people in the electorate are always changing.
  • NEW THREAD

  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sun poll.
    imageimage

    Nice leading questions there. Did they not ask people how they'd vote in a referendum?
    Given 15% of Remainers have changed their mind but only 11% of Leavers that is a 2% swing to Leave since the referendum I believe?
    Assuming this is a balanced panel, which might be quite an assumption.

    I did like the question should Junker:

    (a) be boiled in oil - 35%
    (b) be boiled in his wine collection -62%
    (c) donated to a foodbank -3%.
    Very generous with b over a
    Speaking as a Scot, a) should be described as deep-fried and therefore this option is included to heighten its appeal to us.
This discussion has been closed.