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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A bet that seems like a guaranteed 14% return in just over 4 m

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A bet that seems like a guaranteed 14% return in just over 4 months

Video: Footage of Jeremy Corbyn, in yellow, taking on his critics in the Parliamentary Labour Party. NSFW

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,581
    Good morning.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,581
    As we saw with the defection of Mark Reckless it only seems solidify support for the leadership as opprobrium is heaped on the defectors in language that would shock most people....

    Weren’t you responsible for some of that ?
    :smile:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2018
    Third?
    Only way I can see a contest would be if the PLP get behind one of their Jewish members, with the intention of making the contest explicitly about the anti semitism problem. If Corbyn can’t put the issue to bed but still wins with the members, that might be the trigger for an MP split.

    On second thoughts, good tip TSE.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,581
    Labour are in something of a bind.
    As this Politico article argues, on the one hand, there is a pretty strong belief on the socialist left that Corbyn is essential to their electoral appeal, and prospects of ever forming a government (and that is probably correct); on the other, Corbyn is extremely unlikely to resile from positions he he sees as justified by his personal beliefs.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-wont-compromise-no-matter-the-cost/

    His leadership is likely safe for quite some time. Whether his rather strange moral certainties will convince enough people for him ever to be prime minister is another matter.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Nigelb said:

    Labour are in something of a bind.
    As this Politico article argues, on the one hand, there is a pretty strong belief on the socialist left that Corbyn is essential to their electoral appeal, and prospects of ever forming a government (and that is probably correct); on the other, Corbyn is extremely unlikely to resile from positions he he sees as justified by his personal beliefs.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-wont-compromise-no-matter-the-cost/

    His leadership is likely safe for quite some time. Whether his rather strange moral certainties will convince enough people for him ever to be prime minister is another matter.

    Jeremy Corbyn as the Mrs Thatcher de nos jours? It is a long time since we've had a prime minister with strange moral certainties.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,526

    Nigelb said:

    Labour are in something of a bind.
    As this Politico article argues, on the one hand, there is a pretty strong belief on the socialist left that Corbyn is essential to their electoral appeal, and prospects of ever forming a government (and that is probably correct); on the other, Corbyn is extremely unlikely to resile from positions he he sees as justified by his personal beliefs.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-wont-compromise-no-matter-the-cost/

    His leadership is likely safe for quite some time. Whether his rather strange moral certainties will convince enough people for him ever to be prime minister is another matter.

    Jeremy Corbyn as the Mrs Thatcher de nos jours? It is a long time since we've had a prime minister with strange moral certainties.
    With Labour diehards, everything ends up back at Thatcher ...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080
    Isn't the bet for a contest, rather than a successful one? In which case, the fact that Jezza is likely to win is beside the point.

    I think a further challenge (perhaps over the #peoplesvote) is far more likely than SDP2.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    I have a great dislike of short odds bets. On the other hand, I have a great dislike of rampant bad luck too, and that hasn't stopped the F1 season betting...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Foxy said:

    Isn't the bet for a contest, rather than a successful one? In which case, the fact that Jezza is likely to win is beside the point.

    I think a further challenge (perhaps over the #peoplesvote) is far more likely than SDP2.

    Correct. Does anyone know for sure what the challenge threshold is? In 2016 it was 20% of MPs nominating a challenger (Angela Eagle), but I wouldn't be surprised if they've changed the rules since then or plan to do so at the upcoming conference.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    It is 14% right now. Once the money goes in, the odds will shrink rapidly . Bookies are not a charity.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    A more interesting bet would be on him ceasing to be Leader of the Opposition in 2018 - covers him going/dying, and also the SDP2 happening with more than half the MPs leaving Labour (maybe a bit less if they roped in the LibDems/ultra-Remainer Tories.....)

    The silence over the summer from Labour MPs has been deafening. Summats up....
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    A more interesting bet would be on him ceasing to be Leader of the Opposition in 2018 - covers him going/dying, and also the SDP2 happening with more than half the MPs leaving Labour (maybe a bit less if they roped in the LibDems/ultra-Remainer Tories.....)

    The silence over the summer from Labour MPs has been deafening. Summats up....

    Equally, the relative silence on Brexit (although I confess I’m looking at a distance) gives me some hope that the Ultras realise that the consequences of no arrangement will be quite traumatic.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2018

    A more interesting bet would be on him ceasing to be Leader of the Opposition in 2018 - covers him going/dying, and also the SDP2 happening with more than half the MPs leaving Labour (maybe a bit less if they roped in the LibDems/ultra-Remainer Tories.....)

    The silence over the summer from Labour MPs has been deafening. Summats up....

    The Labour MPs seem rather attached to the Labour brand - understandably of course, many of them have spent decades involved in Labour politics. But as you suggest, any breakaway needs to be half the MPs if it’s to be effective, as it sidelines Corbyn in Parliament (and on a side note would really annoy the SNP, who’d lose their third party status).

    The question is what would the new party stand for? We know a lot of them want to stand against Brexit, but that’s a very minority sport outside Westminster and will be largely moot in six months’ time.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    “You can’t take that away from” him...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2018
    Finely balanced Test match could bring some good betting today.
    England 2.8
    India 2.2
    Draw 5.2

    Value a little with England at this point, and lay the draw as there’s not rain forecast.
    Laying the draw provides a better return than TSE’s tip, doesn’t require knowledge of the intricacies of Labour MPs’ thoughts, and it’ll pay out in the next four days. :tongue:

    And whose silly idea was it to start on Saturday? I’d forgotten it was on until the first day had finished.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,091
    Vegetarian or not, his actuarial risk of dying within that period must be in the region of 1-2%?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    The Home Office is sending police business the way of Amazon, so that's more money the Chancellor will never see again. Police systems are being moved to the cloud, specifically AWS.

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/17/police_it_move_aws_home_office_contract/

    Can anyone imagine even the smallest American police force using a foreign company like this? The government needs to get behind British business like the American government does for its own, to give them a fighting chance of becoming competitive in a world market (and in the meantime employing British staff who spend their money in British shops, and who unlike Amazon, pay British taxes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    A more interesting bet would be on him ceasing to be Leader of the Opposition in 2018 - covers him going/dying, and also the SDP2 happening with more than half the MPs leaving Labour (maybe a bit less if they roped in the LibDems/ultra-Remainer Tories.....)

    The silence over the summer from Labour MPs has been deafening. Summats up....

    The Labour MPs seem rather attached to the Labour brand - understandably of course, many of them have spent decades involved in Labour politics. But as you suggest, any breakaway needs to be half the MPs if it’s to be effective, as it sidelines Corbyn in Parliament (and on a side note would really annoy the SNP, who’d lose their third party status).

    The question is what would the new party stand for? We know a lot of them want to stand against Brexit, but that’s a very minority sport outside Westminster and will be largely moot in six months’ time.
    I would have said there's a gap for a social democratic party that offers a (realistic) better tax system, EFTA, a programme of council house building, state ownership or part-ownership of key utilities, fiscal conservatism and certain social and political reforms, such as changes to local government and a radical rethink on social care, but doesn't have the baggage of Iraq and the Great Crash.

    This is particularly true with Labour offering free unicorns and the Conservatives offering financial punishment beatings.

    I'm just doubtful whether any existing members of Parliament could deliver such a party. Labour or Tory, they are all tainted. Meanwhile, as we are finding out with Trump, Tsipras, the Chavistas, Five Star, Orban and those nutters in Austria, outsiders tend to be outsiders for a very good reason.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Finely balanced Test match could bring some good betting today.
    England 2.8
    India 2.2
    Draw 5.2

    Value a little with England at this point, and lay the draw as there’s not rain forecast.
    Laying the draw provides a better return than TSE’s tip, doesn’t require knowledge of the intricacies of Labour MPs’ thoughts, and it’ll pay out in the next four days. :tongue:

    And whose silly idea was it to start on Saturday? I’d forgotten it was on until the first day had finished.

    The whole schedule is barmier than Ken Livingstone on hearing that there are good Jews in the world. It's based on the idea of five back to back tests, and has only a passing acquaintance with reality. So it is very typical of the BCCI and the ECB, whose idea it was.

    Unless England get a first innings lead of over 200, they will lose this Test. No way can they chase on this surface with Ashwin bowling. And I don't see them getting north of 500 either given the poor quality of their batting lineup.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080
    Sandpit said:

    A more interesting bet would be on him ceasing to be Leader of the Opposition in 2018 - covers him going/dying, and also the SDP2 happening with more than half the MPs leaving Labour (maybe a bit less if they roped in the LibDems/ultra-Remainer Tories.....)

    The silence over the summer from Labour MPs has been deafening. Summats up....

    The Labour MPs seem rather attached to the Labour brand - understandably of course, many of them have spent decades involved in Labour politics. But as you suggest, any breakaway needs to be half the MPs if it’s to be effective, as it sidelines Corbyn in Parliament (and on a side note would really annoy the SNP, who’d lose their third party status).

    The question is what would the new party stand for? We know a lot of them want to stand against Brexit, but that’s a very minority sport outside Westminster and will be largely moot in six months’ time.
    They are indeed attached to Labour as a brand, unlike some of the entryists who are focussed on the Jezziah. Apart from the organisational difficulties of an SDP2, one of the other lessons of SDP1 was that though the Labour party seemed catastrophic in 1983, in reality in barely a decade it was under the control of the centrist Tony Blair elected for the the first time on the 1983 manifesto. A hopeless situation may not be all that it seems now.

    I cannot see major defections from either party, and far more likely is for each to have a radical change of direction under new leadership.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Good morning, everyone.

    I have a great dislike of short odds bets. On the other hand, I have a great dislike of rampant bad luck too, and that hasn't stopped the F1 season betting...

    Short odds bets are great for two reasons. First, they usually win; second, you can get more than a tenner on. But in this case, the timescale makes it unattractive as you'd be tying up money till next year.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. D, alas, I'm sure Corbyn would have the support of Locutus of Borg.

    Mr. JohnL, but they have to usually win a lot. If I back (with equal stakes) a septet of seven to one on bets and a single one fails, I'm in the red.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    Sandpit said:

    Finely balanced Test match could bring some good betting today.
    England 2.8
    India 2.2
    Draw 5.2

    Value a little with England at this point, and lay the draw as there’s not rain forecast.
    Laying the draw provides a better return than TSE’s tip, doesn’t require knowledge of the intricacies of Labour MPs’ thoughts, and it’ll pay out in the next four days. :tongue:

    And whose silly idea was it to start on Saturday? I’d forgotten it was on until the first day had finished.

    This was discussed on Sky yesterday. Apparently, according to ICC rules, there has to be a gap of at least three days after the scheduled end of a Test before the start of the next, and given the need to get every thing in in England during the season this poses problems.

    As far as the results concerned, looks like a draw unless a) England collapse in their first innings or b) India do so in teir second. I would expect that if England get a decent score... ie about the same as India....... that will take us into the fourth day.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    A more interesting bet would be on him ceasing to be Leader of the Opposition in 2018 - covers him going/dying, and also the SDP2 happening with more than half the MPs leaving Labour (maybe a bit less if they roped in the LibDems/ultra-Remainer Tories.....)

    The silence over the summer from Labour MPs has been deafening. Summats up....

    The Labour MPs seem rather attached to the Labour brand - understandably of course, many of them have spent decades involved in Labour politics. But as you suggest, any breakaway needs to be half the MPs if it’s to be effective, as it sidelines Corbyn in Parliament (and on a side note would really annoy the SNP, who’d lose their third party status).

    The question is what would the new party stand for? We know a lot of them want to stand against Brexit, but that’s a very minority sport outside Westminster and will be largely moot in six months’ time.
    They are indeed attached to Labour as a brand, unlike some of the entryists who are focussed on the Jezziah. Apart from the organisational difficulties of an SDP2, one of the other lessons of SDP1 was that though the Labour party seemed catastrophic in 1983, in reality in barely a decade it was under the control of the centrist Tony Blair elected for the the first time on the 1983 manifesto. A hopeless situation may not be all that it seems now.

    I cannot see major defections from either party, and far more likely is for each to have a radical change of direction under new leadership.
    I'm inclined to agree with that. The change will come from inside and over time as the cultists slowly disappear after the next election, with maybe a handful of defections to the LDs along the way if they can find their voice.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    OT. Just read some of the comments on Jose's reaction to the Man City documentary and came accross this little gem

    " I'm a Birmingham fan and I have watched all 8 episodes - it is a fantastic sporting documentary and I loved seeing how the other half live.
    At one point I even thought I'd sooner sit in the Man City laundry than St Andrews as even that was incredibly impressive.
    But sadly it shows that teams like mine are a billion miles away, and all we can do is dream about another Sheikh talking an interest...".
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Good morning, everyone.

    I have a great dislike of short odds bets. On the other hand, I have a great dislike of rampant bad luck too, and that hasn't stopped the F1 season betting...

    Short odds bets are great for two reasons. First, they usually win; second, you can get more than a tenner on. But in this case, the timescale makes it unattractive as you'd be tying up money till next year.
    The bet isfor 2018, so only tying up the money briefly. It is hard to see a leadership contest happeni g in that time logistically.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Finely balanced Test match could bring some good betting today.
    England 2.8
    India 2.2
    Draw 5.2

    Value a little with England at this point, and lay the draw as there’s not rain forecast.
    Laying the draw provides a better return than TSE’s tip, doesn’t require knowledge of the intricacies of Labour MPs’ thoughts, and it’ll pay out in the next four days. :tongue:

    And whose silly idea was it to start on Saturday? I’d forgotten it was on until the first day had finished.

    This was discussed on Sky yesterday. Apparently, according to ICC rules, there has to be a gap of at least three days after the scheduled end of a Test before the start of the next, and given the need to get every thing in in England during the season this poses problems.

    As far as the results concerned, looks like a draw unless a) England collapse in their first innings or b) India do so in teir second. I would expect that if England get a decent score... ie about the same as India....... that will take us into the fourth day.
    Interesting difference of opinion. I think we'll have them out before lunch today, their tail doesn't wag much, so by the end of the day today we could be on 250 or thereabouts chasing maybe 350.

    Given recent form, the odds on one team or the other collapsing horrifically must be quite short. I'm still laying the draw.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited August 2018
    RobD said:
    Never heard of him.

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    The British public don't like unfair treatment and can see which groups are hounding him; it is particularly unwise for a minority group to be at the forefront of these abusive attacks. They are also unnecessary - he is an elderly man and will step down as LOTO of his own free will sooner rather than later, although I agree not before 29/3/19. His opponents would be better advised to keep shtum and bide their time. The next GE is not due until 2022.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,774
    Was that Owen Smith getting skelped at the end there? Other than that it seems pretty inconceivable that the PLP would be that brave again unless it was thought to be a precursor to a split:look we tried.

    I fully appreciate that paranoia and a focus on the enemy within is classical cult like behaviour but there are some indications that the acolytes believe some sort of a split is imminent. I continue to think not at this point.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    edited August 2018

    Sandpit said:

    Finely balanced Test match could bring some good betting today.
    England 2.8
    India 2.2
    Draw 5.2

    Value a little with England at this point, and lay the draw as there’s not rain forecast.
    Laying the draw provides a better return than TSE’s tip, doesn’t require knowledge of the intricacies of Labour MPs’ thoughts, and it’ll pay out in the next four days. :tongue:

    And whose silly idea was it to start on Saturday? I’d forgotten it was on until the first day had finished.

    This was discussed on Sky yesterday. Apparently, according to ICC rules, there has to be a gap of at least three days after the scheduled end of a Test before the start of the next, and given the need to get every thing in in England during the season this poses problems.

    As far as the results concerned, looks like a draw unless a) England collapse in their first innings or b) India do so in teir second. I would expect that if England get a decent score... ie about the same as India....... that will take us into the fourth day.
    Since the introduction of the 90 overs per day rule, draws have become very rare. If the forecast does not have a whole day wash out, there will be a result. Otherwise, a nail biting finish.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. L, sadly, I must agree. Labour MPs might grumble but unless they actually jump ship they're going to be nodding dogs, and their efforts to be elected next time will also be efforts to see Corbyn become PM.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2018

    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.

    As Dr Foxy suggested, the same way that Labour went from Michael Foot to Tony Blair in little more than a decade, or the Conservatives from IDS to Cameron in an even shorter time frame.

    I can't see sufficient numbers of Labour MPs being wiling to jump to an SDP2, and it needs to be more than half of them for any real effect on Corbyn.

    Assuming it happens as scheduled in 2022, I think the next election will be a re-run of 1992, with the Conservatives under a new leader holding on against a clearly unsuitable LotO - with the added dimension of Labour still at war with itself. JC will be aged 73 by then, and will probably retire.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,581
    edited August 2018

    Nigelb said:

    Labour are in something of a bind.
    As this Politico article argues, on the one hand, there is a pretty strong belief on the socialist left that Corbyn is essential to their electoral appeal, and prospects of ever forming a government (and that is probably correct); on the other, Corbyn is extremely unlikely to resile from positions he he sees as justified by his personal beliefs.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-wont-compromise-no-matter-the-cost/

    His leadership is likely safe for quite some time. Whether his rather strange moral certainties will convince enough people for him ever to be prime minister is another matter.

    Jeremy Corbyn as the Mrs Thatcher de nos jours? It is a long time since we've had a prime minister with strange moral certainties.
    With Labour diehards, everything ends up back at Thatcher ...
    The comparison is not altogether inapt, though. From the article:
    According to Lansman, who has known Corbyn since the 1980s, the Labour leader is an “ethical socialist,” who is unshakeable from his core convictions, no matter the personal or political cost. “He is not really ideological,” Lansman said. “He is certainly less ideological than John [McDonnell]. But he’s also less compromising.”

    Fundamentally, Corbyn’s politics are rooted in a sense of political morality, not economics, Lansman says...


    Anyway, have to be off. Have a good morning.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,774
    surby said:

    Sandpit said:

    Finely balanced Test match could bring some good betting today.
    England 2.8
    India 2.2
    Draw 5.2

    Value a little with England at this point, and lay the draw as there’s not rain forecast.
    Laying the draw provides a better return than TSE’s tip, doesn’t require knowledge of the intricacies of Labour MPs’ thoughts, and it’ll pay out in the next four days. :tongue:

    And whose silly idea was it to start on Saturday? I’d forgotten it was on until the first day had finished.

    This was discussed on Sky yesterday. Apparently, according to ICC rules, there has to be a gap of at least three days after the scheduled end of a Test before the start of the next, and given the need to get every thing in in England during the season this poses problems.

    As far as the results concerned, looks like a draw unless a) England collapse in their first innings or b) India do so in teir second. I would expect that if England get a decent score... ie about the same as India....... that will take us into the fourth day.
    Since the introduction of the 90 overs per day rule, draws have become very rare. If the forecast does not have a whole day wash out, there will be a result. Otherwise, a nail biting finish.
    I don't think that they are any more rare than...90 overs in a day. Didn't quite make it yesterday. Ben Stokes is a very fine player but there is an incredible sameness about England's bowling attack in this game. They are missing Curran.

    Everything turns on how England bats later today. They have been pretty fragile of late, hidden by the even greater vulnerability of India. I think runs on the board make India favourite.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, but this isn't 1983. I know little of Foot but he's often described here as being a decent man. One suspects he didn't try to gerrymander the rule book. If Corbyn and his cult do that, by what route does Not Mental Labour get back in control? They'll lose their power (of which they were idiotically oblivious anyway...) as gatekeepers for the shortlist. The socialist-packed £3 membership will back the looniest of the lefties.

    How does 'centrist' (to use a horrendous term) Labour return to dominance?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Mr. L, sadly, I must agree. Labour MPs might grumble but unless they actually jump ship they're going to be nodding dogs, and their efforts to be elected next time will also be efforts to see Corbyn become PM.

    One of Labours strengths in GE 2017 was its diversity. Paradoxically it was possible to vote Labour to support Corbyn, or to support your local anti-Corbyn MP, to support Brexit as in the manifesto, or to oppose it in the local MP. Take Liz Kendall's increased majority for example in Leicester W. One reason that the wreath photos haven't impacted voting intentions is similar.

    Not a coherent plan for government of course, but quite possible to depose the Tories that way.
  • Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.

    Agreed. He only supports one side.

    No sign of him showing any respect to the victims of Munich or the IRA

    If he was true to his word and not a phoney he would have embraced everyone
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2018

    Mr. Sandpit, but this isn't 1983. I know little of Foot but he's often described here as being a decent man. One suspects he didn't try to gerrymander the rule book. If Corbyn and his cult do that, by what route does Not Mental Labour get back in control? They'll lose their power (of which they were idiotically oblivious anyway...) as gatekeepers for the shortlist. The socialist-packed £3 membership will back the looniest of the lefties.

    How does 'centrist' (to use a horrendous term) Labour return to dominance?

    It will happen eventually. Whoever replaces Corbyn and McDonnell may be raving socialists, but they won't have decades of dodgy associations behind them and the willingness to smash the state back to the 1970s. The new leader will probably not remember the '70s and might not even have been born before Maggie became PM. The current generation of student anarchists will have grown up and had families.

    The three quidders were got rid of at the 2016 contest, by raising the price of associate membership to a purple beer token.

    It won't happen quickly, but these things usually sort themselves out in the end. It will likely be the realisation that there will be Tory governments until they nominate someone sensible, that will eventually sort things out.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.

    As Dr Foxy suggested, the same way that Labour went from Michael Foot to Tony Blair in little more than a decade, or the Conservatives from IDS to Cameron in an even shorter time frame.

    I can't see sufficient numbers of Labour MPs being wiling to jump to an SDP2, and it needs to be more than half of them for any real effect on Corbyn.

    Assuming it happens as scheduled in 2022, I think the next election will be a re-run of 1992, with the Conservatives under a new leader holding on against a clearly unsuitable LotO - with the added dimension of Labour still at war with itself.
    If Labour look like they are going to lose, that war will be extraordinarily vicious. Each side blaming the other for it. And being split, they will be fulfilling the received wisdom that split parties lose elections. OK, maybe the Tories will still be grumbling over the Brexit settlement. But it won't be the all-consuming war that faces the Labour members.

    And that must be a factor for Labour MPs to mull over with SDP2. It is almost impossible to see how the party will have come together by the next election - barring massive deselectons.
  • daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Mr. Sandpit, but this isn't 1983. I know little of Foot but he's often described here as being a decent man. One suspects he didn't try to gerrymander the rule book. If Corbyn and his cult do that, by what route does Not Mental Labour get back in control? They'll lose their power (of which they were idiotically oblivious anyway...) as gatekeepers for the shortlist. The socialist-packed £3 membership will back the looniest of the lefties.

    How does 'centrist' (to use a horrendous term) Labour return to dominance?

    No, as I recall it, Foot played it by the book. He was a very good, and thoughtful, public speaker, of course.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.

    Agreed. He only supports one side.

    No sign of him showing any respect to the victims of Munich or the IRA

    If he was true to his word and not a phoney he would have embraced everyone
    But if he did now go and pray at the graves of the victims of Munich or the IRA - then he would like a phoney. Dragged to doing it by political expediency, not heart-felt commitment.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    jezza is a trot, and unusually for them, is more of a laid-back trot, as many become 'activists'.

    I'd define an activist as an unemployed and unemployable person, so convinced of the righteousness of their own views, they will live to force them on others. On that basis, Jezza fails the activist test. but like an activist, he is impervious to others' views.

    I had time for Michael Foot, and I thought Kinnock was under-rated, but Jezza? Sorry.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Dr. Foxy, right.

    Next time, Corbyn could win. What are 'sceptical' MPs going to do? Not support a Labour Government? They'll just line up behind him, unless they split first.

    Mr. Sandpit, we'll see how things pan out.

    Mr. Pioneers, Labour under Corbyn isn't a moral crusade, despite his fixation on the Holy Land.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Corbyn is not teetotal.

    He does drink occasionally.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080
    edited August 2018

    Mr. Sandpit, but this isn't 1983. I know little of Foot but he's often described here as being a decent man. One suspects he didn't try to gerrymander the rule book. If Corbyn and his cult do that, by what route does Not Mental Labour get back in control? They'll lose their power (of which they were idiotically oblivious anyway...) as gatekeepers for the shortlist. The socialist-packed £3 membership will back the looniest of the lefties.

    How does 'centrist' (to use a horrendous term) Labour return to dominance?

    It wasn't just Foot in 1983, it was Militant and Scargill running wild and the Tory press full of tales of the Looney Left*.

    I think it far from certain that Jezza will get to annoint his successor. It is the nature of leadership defenestrations that the endorsement of the outgoing leader counts for little. When change is wanted it can even be damaging to the candidate.

    *much of that Looneyism is now Tory party policy...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,036
    I said so a week or two ago that Wreathgate wouldn't matter.

    There are still too many gamblers betting with their hearts, and not their heads, on both Corbyn and Brexit, even though the value isn't as extreme as it once was.

    There are some good prices for him leaving in 2020 and 2021 with Ladbrokes, 5/1 and 10/1 respectively, when is even better with the odds boost.

    I've used that plus the Paddypower 10/11 Corbyn leaving office in 2020+ to do a bit of a combo: I almost break even in 2019 and in any year beyond 2022+, whilst more than doubling my money in 2020 and 2021 if he does a retirement/handover/ill health.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited August 2018

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    I think that is rather idealistic.

    Corbyn's circle want to smash capitalism, an act that would have the most serious of consequences for everyone including the poorest.

    However, you are to be respected for your loyalty and hopes that the worst expectations of a Corbyn government will be curtailed.

    Many will not be so sanquine
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
  • Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.

    Agreed. He only supports one side.

    No sign of him showing any respect to the victims of Munich or the IRA

    If he was true to his word and not a phoney he would have embraced everyone
    But if he did now go and pray at the graves of the victims of Munich or the IRA - then he would like a phoney. Dragged to doing it by political expediency, not heart-felt commitment.
    Agreed
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.

    As Dr Foxy suggested, the same way that Labour went from Michael Foot to Tony Blair in little more than a decade, or the Conservatives from IDS to Cameron in an even shorter time frame.

    I can't see sufficient numbers of Labour MPs being wiling to jump to an SDP2, and it needs to be more than half of them for any real effect on Corbyn.

    Assuming it happens as scheduled in 2022, I think the next election will be a re-run of 1992, with the Conservatives under a new leader holding on against a clearly unsuitable LotO - with the added dimension of Labour still at war with itself.
    If Labour look like they are going to lose, that war will be extraordinarily vicious. Each side blaming the other for it. And being split, they will be fulfilling the received wisdom that split parties lose elections. OK, maybe the Tories will still be grumbling over the Brexit settlement. But it won't be the all-consuming war that faces the Labour members.

    And that must be a factor for Labour MPs to mull over with SDP2. It is almost impossible to see how the party will have come together by the next election - barring massive deselectons.
    That was the PB Tory consensus on that fateful Easter Morning when Theresa called the 2017 GE. That Labour would self destruct, and see her home with a 200 seat majority.

    What happened next?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.

    As Dr Foxy suggested, the same way that Labour went from Michael Foot to Tony Blair in little more than a decade, or the Conservatives from IDS to Cameron in an even shorter time frame.

    I can't see sufficient numbers of Labour MPs being wiling to jump to an SDP2, and it needs to be more than half of them for any real effect on Corbyn.

    Assuming it happens as scheduled in 2022, I think the next election will be a re-run of 1992, with the Conservatives under a new leader holding on against a clearly unsuitable LotO - with the added dimension of Labour still at war with itself.
    If Labour look like they are going to lose, that war will be extraordinarily vicious. Each side blaming the other for it. And being split, they will be fulfilling the received wisdom that split parties lose elections. OK, maybe the Tories will still be grumbling over the Brexit settlement. But it won't be the all-consuming war that faces the Labour members.

    And that must be a factor for Labour MPs to mull over with SDP2. It is almost impossible to see how the party will have come together by the next election - barring massive deselectons.
    Yes. Imagine the scenario two or three years from now, when Mrs May has seen Brexit through and stood aside for Sajid Javid - who sees a poll boost while Labour are trying to effect deselections on anyone who won't swear by the Cult of Corbyn.

    The sensible Lab MPs must be thinking this through, and know they need to do something sooner rather than later - but so far no-one looks like jumping. Maybe they can see that the biggest long-term risk to the party is that the deselections happen - and by jumping ship they ensure that outcome.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.

    Which Munich attack? There have been several in the last 100 years, including:

    1. Violence post WW1 in 1918/9, involving extreme left-wing and right radical forces
    2. The attempted Putsch on 9/11/1923
    3. The attempted assassination of AH in 1939
    4. The allied bombing in WW2 which caused thousands of deaths
    5. The attack at the 1972 Olympics
    6. The Oktoberfest bombing in 1980
    7. The terrorist shooting in 2016
  • Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for
  • daodao said:

    Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.

    Which Munich attack? There have been several in the last 100 years, including:

    1. Violence post WW1 in 1918/9, involving extreme left-wing and right radical forces
    2. The attempted Putsch on 9/11/1923
    3. The attempted assassination of AH in 1939
    4. The allied bombing in WW2 which caused thousands of deaths
    5. The attack at the 1972 Olympics
    6. The Oktoberfest bombing in 1980
    7. The terrorist shooting in 2016
    Not worthy of a response
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.

    As Dr Foxy suggested, the same way that Labour went from Michael Foot to Tony Blair in little more than a decade, or the Conservatives from IDS to Cameron in an even shorter time frame.

    I can't see sufficient numbers of Labour MPs being wiling to jump to an SDP2, and it needs to be more than half of them for any real effect on Corbyn.

    Assuming it happens as scheduled in 2022, I think the next election will be a re-run of 1992, with the Conservatives under a new leader holding on against a clearly unsuitable LotO - with the added dimension of Labour still at war with itself.
    If Labour look like they are going to lose, that war will be extraordinarily vicious. Each side blaming the other for it. And being split, they will be fulfilling the received wisdom that split parties lose elections. OK, maybe the Tories will still be grumbling over the Brexit settlement. But it won't be the all-consuming war that faces the Labour members.

    And that must be a factor for Labour MPs to mull over with SDP2. It is almost impossible to see how the party will have come together by the next election - barring massive deselectons.
    Yes. Imagine the scenario two or three years from now, when Mrs May has seen Brexit through and stood aside for Sajid Javid - who sees a poll boost while Labour are trying to effect deselections on anyone who won't swear by the Cult of Corbyn.

    The sensible Lab MPs must be thinking this through, and know they need to do something sooner rather than later - but so far no-one looks like jumping. Maybe they can see that the biggest long-term risk to the party is that the deselections happen - and by jumping ship they ensure that outcome.
    And the boundary review
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    One of our Keralan nurses was in tears on Friday. A tree has fallen on her parents house, the district is flooded and no one has been able to contact them.

  • Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    Tories are not sanguine over business. That comment lost Boris to me. This conservative is 100% pro business and also totally anti no deal
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited August 2018
    "It wasn't just Foot in 1983, it was Militant and Scargill running wild and the Tory press full of tales of the Looney Left*.

    Perhaps Labour need a new Kinnock? He was a hate figure for the tory press but those tended to be personal attacks on his competence. Easier to do when you lead from the front, as he did. Jezza is not a front man and therein lies the danger. He can end up far more of a puppet than 'Kinnochio' ever was.

    By changing rules and personnel, the Jezzarites can set the scene for a real takeover by Militant-types, something Kinnock would never have allowed.
  • Foxy said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    One of our Keralan nurses was in tears on Friday. A tree has fallen on her parents house, the district is flooded and no one has been able to contact them.

    I think many will be affected in this country
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.

    As Dr Foxy suggested, the same way that Labour went from Michael Foot to Tony Blair in little more than a decade, or the Conservatives from IDS to Cameron in an even shorter time frame.

    I can't see sufficient numbers of Labour MPs being wiling to jump to an SDP2, and it needs to be more than half of them for any real effect on Corbyn.

    Assuming it happens as scheduled in 2022, I think the next election will be a re-run of 1992, with the Conservatives under a new leader holding on against a clearly unsuitable LotO - with the added dimension of Labour still at war with itself.
    If Labour look like they are going to lose, that war will be extraordinarily vicious. Each side blaming the other for it. And being split, they will be fulfilling the received wisdom that split parties lose elections. OK, maybe the Tories will still be grumbling over the Brexit settlement. But it won't be the all-consuming war that faces the Labour members.

    And that must be a factor for Labour MPs to mull over with SDP2. It is almost impossible to see how the party will have come together by the next election - barring massive deselectons.
    That was the PB Tory consensus on that fateful Easter Morning when Theresa called the 2017 GE. That Labour would self destruct, and see her home with a 200 seat majority.

    What happened next?
    It wasn't just the PB Tories who thought that. I wasn't even sure that Labour wouldn't do so badly that they would be out of the running for a generation.

    Nobody knows anything.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Dr. Foxy, that quote is attributed to Boris, about whom a great many on the right have little but contempt.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    Tories are not sanguine over business. That comment lost Boris to me. This conservative is 100% pro business and also totally anti no deal
    Which leaves the Tories choosing between No Deal Brexit, Chequers minus, A50 suspension or Limbo Transition to nowhere Brexit.

    The Tory reputation for economic competence is trashed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,036
    Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    But, posts like that show your politics is driven by your heart, not your head.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Dr. Foxy, hope your nurse's relatives are ok.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    Tories are not sanguine over business. That comment lost Boris to me. This conservative is 100% pro business and also totally anti no deal
    Which leaves the Tories choosing between No Deal Brexit, Chequers minus, A50 suspension or Limbo Transition to nowhere Brexit.

    The Tory reputation for economic competence is trashed.
    You say that from a remainer point of view.

    The choice on what happens will be made by all mps when they vote on the deal or no deal

    The conservative government have the responsiblity of dealing with Brexit and are bound to come under fire from the two extremes - hard Brexit or remain
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,036

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    Brexit is simply recalibrating a trading arrangement, and coming up with new bilateral political fora, with our European neighbours. This Government is fiscally conservative and moderate, even if politically embarrassing and undisciplined it is administering the nation effectively.

    A Corbyn Govt would use the UK as a sandpit for a full blown 21st Century experiment in neo-marxist economics.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, why would that happen? The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and are intent upon rewriting the leadership rules to grant them a long term advantage.

    As Dr Foxy suggested, the same way that Labour went from Michael Foot to Tony Blair in little more than a decade, or the Conservatives from IDS to Cameron in an even shorter time frame.

    I can't see sufficient numbers of Labour MPs being wiling to jump to an SDP2, and it needs to be more than half of them for any real effect on Corbyn.

    Assuming it happens as scheduled in 2022, I think the next election will be a re-run of 1992, with the Conservatives under a new leader holding on against a clearly unsuitable LotO - with the added dimension of Labour still at war with itself.
    If Labour look like they are going to lose, that war will be extraordinarily vicious. Each side blaming the other for it. And being split, they will be fulfilling the received wisdom that split parties lose elections. OK, maybe the Tories will still be grumbling over the Brexit settlement. But it won't be the all-consuming war that faces the Labour members.

    And that must be a factor for Labour MPs to mull over with SDP2. It is almost impossible to see how the party will have come together by the next election - barring massive deselectons.
    Yes. Imagine the scenario two or three years from now, when Mrs May has seen Brexit through and stood aside for Sajid Javid - who sees a poll boost while Labour are trying to effect deselections on anyone who won't swear by the Cult of Corbyn.

    The sensible Lab MPs must be thinking this through, and know they need to do something sooner rather than later - but so far no-one looks like jumping. Maybe they can see that the biggest long-term risk to the party is that the deselections happen - and by jumping ship they ensure that outcome.
    And the boundary review
    Ah yes, the boundary review. That's supposed to be reporting this October from memory. Tories think they've got the numbers for the vote.

    Corbyn could well abstain, purely because it makes the reselections easier.
  • Off topic
    Shout out to Rob S for getting Crowd Scores fixed.
  • Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    But, posts like that show your politics is driven by your heart, not your head.
    I think that has been obvious for some time
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited August 2018
    Welfare is the acid test for politics.

    A true tory will point out that some people game and cheat the system, so we must stop this. This is true.

    A true lefty will point out that some people are being failed by the harsh rules, so we must ease them. This is also true.

    Edit - A Jezzarite just wants to smash the system and make it all unnecessary by invoking the words of Trotsky.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    But, posts like that show your politics is driven by your heart, not your head.
    Of course! Isn't that true for all?

    But for many Leavers, particularly in the provinces Taking Back Control was not about abstract sovereignty, but rather Taking Back Control of economic distribution of wealth.

    The Tories are riding a Populist tiger, and if they fall, will get eaten.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    That said, I would take a Corbyn government right now over the current shower - we have lives to save from the ministrations of McVey and the DWP. I know that many posters disagree with my moral arguments for a Labour government and against a Tory government but thats I am sticking with the party. Its not a brand. Its a moral crusade. A few year diversion by a clutch of trot entryists doesn't change what the movement is and what it represents.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    Brexit is simply recalibrating a trading arrangement, and coming up with new bilateral political fora, with our European neighbours. This Government is fiscally conservative and moderate, even if politically embarrassing and undisciplined it is administering the nation effectively.

    A Corbyn Govt would use the UK as a sandpit for a full blown 21st Century experiment in neo-marxist economics.
    Would it? That wasn't what the last manifesto said. And nothing they have said has hinted at anything like that. What makes you think it will be the case?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    Foxy said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    One of our Keralan nurses was in tears on Friday. A tree has fallen on her parents house, the district is flooded and no one has been able to contact them.

    Don't blame the poor woman for being in tears. That's a horrible situation to face. Indeed, it says a lot for her dedication that she was in work at all.

    Looks like many thousands if not millions will be facing situations similar to that though.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    It's exactly what a foreign aid budget is there for. We should be offering every available military plane and helicopter, alongside specialist men and equipment.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    daodao said:

    Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.

    Which Munich attack? There have been several in the last 100 years, including:

    1. Violence post WW1 in 1918/9, involving extreme left-wing and right radical forces
    2. The attempted Putsch on 9/11/1923
    3. The attempted assassination of AH in 1939
    4. The allied bombing in WW2 which caused thousands of deaths
    5. The attack at the 1972 Olympics
    6. The Oktoberfest bombing in 1980
    7. The terrorist shooting in 2016
    Possibly the most twattish post on here this year.

    You Corbynistas need to expunged from politics.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080
    edited August 2018

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    I am not a Corbynista, but am disgusted by the widespread hatred displayed towards Corbyn and his supporters, both on this site and in much of the media. It is reasonable to criticise, in a dignified way, his policies and also his lack of competence/ability, for which there is some evidence. However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him.

    He is a tireless campaigner against *certain kinds* of racism. He has been a tacit supporter of the very worst kinds of anti-semitism for a long time, and his support for the oppressed has been subjective and one sided.

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    Tories are not sanguine over business. That comment lost Boris to me. This conservative is 100% pro business and also totally anti no deal
    Which leaves the Tories choosing between No Deal Brexit, Chequers minus, A50 suspension or Limbo Transition to nowhere Brexit.

    The Tory reputation for economic competence is trashed.
    You say that from a remainer point of view.

    The choice on what happens will be made by all mps when they vote on the deal or no deal

    The conservative government have the responsiblity of dealing with Brexit and are bound to come under fire from the two extremes - hard Brexit or remain
    Or the choice will be via a #peoplesvote :)

    Brexit will be an albatross around the Tory neck. Chequers is unpopular, and only a starting point as far as the EU is concerned. Other MPs are not going to vote for it.

    Personally, I think Transition Limbo BINO Brexit is the most likely place that we will be next year.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761


    Brexit is simply recalibrating a trading arrangement, and coming up with new bilateral political fora, with our European neighbours. This Government is fiscally conservative and moderate, even if politically embarrassing and undisciplined it is administering the nation effectively.

    A Corbyn Govt would use the UK as a sandpit for a full blown 21st Century experiment in neo-marxist economics.

    Would it? That wasn't what the last manifesto said. And nothing they have said has hinted at anything like that. What makes you think it will be the case?
    There are still people out there who have a touching faith that a manifesto based on the lies of a populist and the sums of a Maoist meant what it said.

    In fact, though, I agree with you that they would not launch a 21st century socialist experiment (leaving aside the fact that such a thing would hardly be an experiment given the number of times it has been tried and failed disastrously). I think it's naked incompetence and dithering that would squash the economy under a Corbyn government, not cold and logical mendacity. Apart from anything else the latter requires a degree of intelligence and coherence that he simply doesn't have.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    It's exactly what a foreign aid budget is there for. We should be offering every available military plane and helicopter, alongside specialist men and equipment.
    Not so sure we should given India publicly telling us they didn't want our aid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Foxy said:

    Isn't the bet for a contest, rather than a successful one? In which case, the fact that Jezza is likely to win is beside the point.

    I think a further challenge (perhaps over the #peoplesvote) is far more likely than SDP2.

    If they'd lose why would they challenge? Last time they might have thought they could win at least.

    I think he'll back a second referendum anyway. Another way he'll compromise a bit, whichyet further undermines his opponents who then don't leave.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    One of our Keralan nurses was in tears on Friday. A tree has fallen on her parents house, the district is flooded and no one has been able to contact them.

    Don't blame the poor woman for being in tears. That's a horrible situation to face. Indeed, it says a lot for her dedication that she was in work at all.

    Looks like many thousands if not millions will be facing situations similar to that though.
    Yes, our Keralan nurses are very dedicated. Well trained and professional too.

    Another one is on summer holiday with his children there. I think he is OK though.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,774
    edited August 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    Tories are not sanguine over business. That comment lost Boris to me. This conservative is 100% pro business and also totally anti no deal
    Which leaves the Tories choosing between No Deal Brexit, Chequers minus, A50 suspension or Limbo Transition to nowhere Brexit.

    The Tory reputation for economic competence is trashed.
    You think?

    A rapidly falling deficit.
    Record employment.
    Low inflation.
    Continuous growth.
    Greater equality of incomes.
    Lower taxes on the less well paid.
    A NMW that has increased sharply.
    Policies that encourage and reward work rather than benefit dependency.

    There are problems. The trade deficit, student debt, a dysfunctional housing market, strains on public services especially in social care, insufficient investment in skills and training, some aspects of the gig economy, very modest increases in real wages as a result of poor productivity growth. But does anyone seriously think that Corbyn has credible answers to these issues or that he can maintain what the Tories have achieved since 2010?

    May was determined to win on her own terms in 2017 and hid her Chancellor away with the result that the economic record (which was mainly Osborne's whom she detested) wasn't promoted the way it should have been. It was a serious mistake that should not be repeated.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Foxy said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    One of our Keralan nurses was in tears on Friday. A tree has fallen on her parents house, the district is flooded and no one has been able to contact them.

    I think many will be affected in this country
    Dr Prasannan (sp?) was posting about it yesterday. He has relations in Kerala, but apparently they are not in an affected area.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    It's exactly what a foreign aid budget is there for. We should be offering every available military plane and helicopter, alongside specialist men and equipment.
    The Indian air force ME and RW fleets are 4-5x larger than the RAF. Any token effort the UK made would just complicate and hinder due to the effort taken to integrate them into the operation.

    Also, it would just be an excuse for a great number of senior officers to get on the curries and Kingfisher in New Delhi.

    Also, it's "people" not "men". It's 2018.


  • A Corbyn Govt would use the UK as a sandpit for a full blown 21st Century experiment in neo-marxist economics.

    Would it? That wasn't what the last manifesto said. And nothing they have said has hinted at anything like that. What makes you think it will be the case?
    Of course it wouldn't. Yes I have seen some Kali Ma cultists sat in the pub waving Beetroots shouting "Fuck Capitalism" for the cameras. But when it comes down to it they want people in well paid secure jobs with right - and that means profitable businesses. Which means capitalism. What you would see under Labour is an end to the kind of predatory capitalism which ultimately derails itself - the likes of Carillion - and by building homes that people can afford to live in we stop so much of people's disposable incomes being hoovered up in unsecure rent.

    I don't agree with Tory posters on here and they don't agree with me - thats politics. But my point about McVey and the DWP stands - the Tory ministers know their policies are literally killing people. Literally forcing people into abject poverty supported by food banks. At best they are ignoring their own evidence. At worst they don't care. A party which is "fuck business" as well as doing more than Thatcher ever did to fuck people needs to removed.

    What will upset the Corbyn cultists is when the Corbyn government starts making compromises of "principles". Life isn't the start black and white they think it is, its all shades and too often the options are how much you lose not whether you win or not. They don't understand that. Yet for all that he gets attacked McDonnell does - he ran a tight ship at the GLC...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. kle4, emotional attachment to the Labour brand.

    It's also possible, although unlikely, I'd suggest, that such could be a final act to try and regain the leadership for non-lunatics before splitting.

    The sane wing of the PLP collectively needs to either split, or accept they're going to march into the next election with Corbyn as their leader and potential PM.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    It's exactly what a foreign aid budget is there for. We should be offering every available military plane and helicopter, alongside specialist men and equipment.
    Not so sure we should given India publicly telling us they didn't want our aid.
    We absolutely should, and keep reiterating publically and privately that the offer remains open. I'd probably go as far as getting packed up and relocating equipment to the Middle East so it's close by if needed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    daodao said:

    A Corbyn Govt. would do huge damage to the economy, by stepping in the Tardis and taking us back to 1975. And that would cause far more harm to those you want to help than any perceived problems from McVey and the DWP. We have seen it multiple times. Labour wrecks the economy. Corbyn's ambitions would wreck it worse than any before it. Every Labour Govt. leaves office with fewer in emloyment than they inherited. And it is always the average Joe or Joanne who suffers.

    I can see no difference in putting Corbyn in Downing Street than a Scargill or a Red Robbo. They are all economic incompetents.
    A very powerful argument against No Deal Brexit.

    If Tories are sanguine about "f*** business", then why shouldn't the rest of us say the same about other economic policies?
    Tories are not sanguine over business. That comment lost Boris to me. This conservative is 100% pro business and also totally anti no deal
    Which leaves the Tories choosing between No Deal Brexit, Chequers minus, A50 suspension or Limbo Transition to nowhere Brexit.

    The Tory reputation for economic competence is trashed.
    You think?

    A rapidly falling deficit.
    Record employment.
    Low inflation.
    Continuous growth.
    Greater equality of incomes.
    Lower taxes on the less well paid.
    A NMW that has increased sharply.
    Policies that encourage and reward work rather than benefit dependency.

    There are problems. The trade deficit, student debt, a dysfunctional housing market, strains on public services especially in social care, insufficient investment in skills and training, some aspects of the gig economy, very modest increases in real wages as a result of poor productivity growth. But does anyone seriously think that Corbyn has credible answers to these issues or that he can maintain what the Tories have achieved since 2010?

    May was determined to win on her own terms in 2017 and hid her Chancellor away with the result that the economic record (which was mainly Osborne's whom she detested) wasn't promoted the way it should have been. It was a serious mistake that should not be repeated.
    I have respect for Hammond, but it seems few Tories do.

    No Deal Brexit trashes that reputation though.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    The Home Office is sending police business the way of Amazon, so that's more money the Chancellor will never see again. Police systems are being moved to the cloud, specifically AWS.

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/17/police_it_move_aws_home_office_contract/

    Can anyone imagine even the smallest American police force using a foreign company like this? The government needs to get behind British business like the American government does for its own, to give them a fighting chance of becoming competitive in a world market (and in the meantime employing British staff who spend their money in British shops, and who unlike Amazon, pay British taxes.

    I do not understand why Mrs May and her gang are so keen to sell out British interests and suck up to the Americans all the time. The Conservatives used to be the patriotic party, didn`t they?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    One of our Keralan nurses was in tears on Friday. A tree has fallen on her parents house, the district is flooded and no one has been able to contact them.

    Don't blame the poor woman for being in tears. That's a horrible situation to face. Indeed, it says a lot for her dedication that she was in work at all.

    Looks like many thousands if not millions will be facing situations similar to that though.
    Yes, our Keralan nurses are very dedicated. Well trained and professional too.

    Another one is on summer holiday with his children there. I think he is OK though.
    Isn't it one of the main tourist areas in India? Which I imagine means there is a large transient population to account for/deal with, making it even more difficult to organise a rescue.

    I hope the Indian government understands it can and should ask for foreign help. I mean, even we've accepted international help for lesser disasters in the past (2007 floods springs to mind).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    daodao said:

    Mr. daodao, one fears you've been paying as much attention to politics as you have to science fiction.

    "However, he is a principled man and a tireless campaigner against racism and oppression in all its forms throughout the world, and deserves to be treated with respect, even if one disagrees with him."

    I look forward to the footage taken of him praying at the graves of the victims of the Munich attack.

    Which Munich attack? There have been several in the last 100 years, including:

    1. Violence post WW1 in 1918/9, involving extreme left-wing and right radical forces
    2. The attempted Putsch on 9/11/1923
    3. The attempted assassination of AH in 1939
    4. The allied bombing in WW2 which caused thousands of deaths
    5. The attack at the 1972 Olympics
    6. The Oktoberfest bombing in 1980
    7. The terrorist shooting in 2016
    5. The Olympic attack
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    It's exactly what a foreign aid budget is there for. We should be offering every available military plane and helicopter, alongside specialist men and equipment.
    The Indian air force ME and RW fleets are 4-5x larger than the RAF. Any token effort the UK made would just complicate and hinder due to the effort taken to integrate them into the operation.

    Also, it would just be an excuse for a great number of senior officers to get on the curries and Kingfisher in New Delhi.

    Also, it's "people" not "men". It's 2018.
    Money for reconstruction however would be an appropriate use of foreign aid and wouldn't require our forces to be integrated with India's.

    Anyway, I have to go and pull out an eight foot horn with my name on it. I will see you all later.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anyway todays big story is the terrble floods in India

    6,000 miles of roads washed away and despair abounds

    I would like to think TM will offer help to India paid out of our foreign aid budget.

    Surely that is what it is for

    It's exactly what a foreign aid budget is there for. We should be offering every available military plane and helicopter, alongside specialist men and equipment.
    The Indian air force ME and RW fleets are 4-5x larger than the RAF. Any token effort the UK made would just complicate and hinder due to the effort taken to integrate them into the operation.

    Also, it would just be an excuse for a great number of senior officers to get on the curries and Kingfisher in New Delhi.

    Also, it's "people" not "men". It's 2018.
    Surely they need every single helo they can get their hands on?

    From reports it sounds like there could be *millions* of people needing to be physically evacuated.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    Darford Crossing fees to incease from 1st Oct!
  • I am attached to the Labour Brand. I am also a member of the Co-operative Party. Rumours of MPs trying a reverse takeover of the Co-op a couple of summers back could show the way for a potential out if the deselection tumbrils start rolling...
This discussion has been closed.