There was torrential rain. Maybe the additional weight of water placed a terminal stress on some part of the structure - or the water washed away some support.
There are reports from some eyewitnesses that it was struck by lightning.
Italian minister confirming at least 30 dead and many injured. Terrifying.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
TBH I voted remain and I now support Leave as that was the result. It turns out that the economic reasons I fell in behind may have been somewhat overblown, and I would now have to think even more carefully if there was a second referendum.
Oh FFS - Corbyn himself has said the party has a problem with anti semitism (if not as big as others say and he disagrees he is part of the problem). I'm sorry, calling that a smear is utter proof of cult like behaviour.
Christ, I hope when Boris wins his fans do not act with such irrational levels of devotion, it is completely absurd.
Corbyn could wear a ‘Labour has an anti-semitism problem and I laid a wreath on a terrorists grave ‘ t-shirt and it would be a conspiracy of the right wing media. In this post-truth age pointing out what someone has said and done in their own words and with photographs of the events is concoction.
Corbyn could wear a ‘Labour has an anti-semitism problem and I laid a wreath on a terrorists grave ‘ t-shirt and it would be a conspiracy of the right wing media. In this post-truth age pointing out what someone has said and done in their own words and with photographs of the events is concoction.
Thanks Mr Meeks. Since a Leaver will beat a Remainer in the final, the strategy of remainer MPs will be to get two soft leavers into the final and sideline Johnson. Javid versus Gove I would guess. So both must stand if that is to work, but if either of them were to support Johnson he wins, and he wins anyway if the Conservative MPs fail to sideline him. Not surprising he's the bookies' favourite.
Following on from @Cyclefree's excellent thread yesterday, our political journalism has always worked on the assumption that if you can prove a [sufficiently big] lie then a resignation should follow.
Saying "I was present at wreath-laying but don't think I was involved" in one piece to camera then admitting "I laid one wreath" in another broadcast interview within 24 hours ought to qualify.
LOL, I love how you claim to be calling out lies by telling a lie yourself.
Your quote of Corbyn saying "I laid one wreath" conveniently leaves out his very next words that the wreath was for people who died in the 1985 attack - not for the people who died in the 1992 raids, which is what he's being criticised for.
Whether Corbyn is telling the truth about not laying a wreath for the 1992 incident, I have no idea, but it's flat-out "fake news" to claim he's "admitted" to doing so. But is typical of Tory commentators for ruining valid attacks on Corbyn by going overboard.
Bollocks. He made clear yesterday that he wasn't involved in wreath-laying, and today he admitted doing so. And that's without getting into all the pretty damning pictorial evidence as to which wreath he laid, which suggests he's still evading the issue.
So its someone who once met someone who once was in the same City as one of the Munich terrorists about 11 years before they became the Munich Terrorists now is it?
Its absurd Just give it up Guido FFS
No this is Bin Laden rather than the terrorists who flew the planes.
The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"
Oh dear
Commie Spy
Munich Terrorists wreath
Next?
Change is coming they are getting desparate
Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.
Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.
But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.
People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
But you believed Corbyn was a Commie Spy
The boy who cried wolf and all that
Even if I did - even if I still did - that would have fuck all to do with you ignoring rock solid facts about this later scandal. Corbyn could survive being accused of being a spy and yet still have to leave the leadership - if he is found to have paid respects at the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Which he was happy to brag about to the Morning Star, when it was enhancing his right-on credentials.
His Morning Star Article says exactly what he is saying now.
Nothing said about the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Laying a wreath for the victims of the Tunisian air strike.
Your position yesterday was that it was the graves of the Munich bombers.
They are buried 1200 miles away.
Its pathetic havent you got something better to do than agree with made up stories
Oh FFS - Corbyn himself has said the party has a problem with anti semitism (if not as big as others say and he disagrees he is part of the problem). I'm sorry, calling that a smear is utter proof of cult like behaviour.
Christ, I hope when Boris wins his fans do not act with such irrational levels of devotion, it is completely absurd.
Labour lost a seat in Stoke-on-Trent at the last election for the first time since 1931.
Thanks Mr Meeks. Since a Leaver will beat a Remainer in the final, the strategy of remainer MPs will be to get two soft leavers into the final and sideline Johnson. Javid versus Gove I would guess. So both must stand if that is to work, but if either of them were to support Johnson he wins, and he wins anyway if the Conservative MPs fail to sideline him. Not surprising he's the bookies' favourite.
Easy mistake to make, of course. I expect he's laid wreaths on so many terrorist graves and memorials that it's quite understandable that he might have forgotten one of them.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
I know Twitter is full of nonsense but I couldn't help noticing a comment by someone who thought that the controversy didn't matter "because it happened 46 years ago." Some people really don't care about anything they can't personally remember it seems.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"
Oh dear
Commie Spy
Munich Terrorists wreath
Next?
Change is coming they are getting desparate
Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.
Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.
But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.
People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
But you believed Corbyn was a Commie Spy
The boy who cried wolf and all that
Even if I did - even if I still did - that would have fuck all to do with you ignoring rock solid facts about this later scandal. Corbyn could survive being accused of being a spy and yet still have to leave the leadership - if he is found to have paid respects at the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Which he was happy to brag about to the Morning Star, when it was enhancing his right-on credentials.
His Morning Star Article says exactly what he is saying now.
Nothing said about the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Laying a wreath for the victims of the Tunisian air strike.
Your position yesterday was that it was the graves of the Munich bombers.
They are buried 1200 miles away.
Its pathetic havent you got something better to do than agree with made up stories
I don’t suppose there is anything he could have done that might draw your criticism is there?
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
I miss previous times, (like the 1990s for example), when almost everyone could agree on the facts of an incident, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of it.
The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"
Oh dear
Commie Spy
Munich Terrorists wreath
Next?
Change is coming they are getting desparate
Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.
Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.
But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.
People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
But you believed Corbyn was a Commie Spy
The boy who cried wolf and all that
Even if I did - even if I still did - that would have fuck all to do with you ignoring rock solid facts about this later scandal. Corbyn could survive being accused of being a spy and yet still have to leave the leadership - if he is found to have paid respects at the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Which he was happy to brag about to the Morning Star, when it was enhancing his right-on credentials.
Laying a wreath for the victims of the Tunisian air strike.
Just got the wrong place in the cemetery and laid a wreath on the graves of PLO leaders:
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
Easy mistake to make, of course. I expect he's laid wreaths on so many terrorist graves and memorials that it's quite understandable that he might have forgotten one of them.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
As far as I understand it, it was not for the operatives on the ground but the mastermind / plotters. An enterprising journalist might clarify it with Corbyn himself.
Very good thread @AlastairMeeks, following on from our conversations a couple of days ago. I still think Boris doesn’t have the absolute support required to make it to the final two, and that his recent antics have made it more likely that MPs will actively vote against him in the early rounds.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"
Oh dear
Commie Spy
Munich Terrorists wreath
Next?
Change is coming they are getting desparate
Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.
Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.
But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.
People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
But you believed Corbyn was a Commie Spy
The boy who cried wolf and all that
Even if I did - even if I still did - that would have fuck all to do with you ignoring rock solid facts about this later scandal. Corbyn could survive being accused of being a spy and yet still have to leave the leadership - if he is found to have paid respects at the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Which he was happy to brag about to the Morning Star, when it was enhancing his right-on credentials.
Laying a wreath for the victims of the Tunisian air strike.
Just got the wrong place in the cemetery and laid a wreath on the graves of PLO leaders:
While the £39 billion we may or may not end up paying to the EU is about the same as we spend on covering the interest on our national debt in a year (£41 billion according to the 2017 budget).
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"
Oh dear
Commie Spy
Munich Terrorists wreath
Next?
Change is coming they are getting desparate
Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.
Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.
But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.
People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
But you believed Corbyn was a Commie Spy
The boy who cried wolf and all that
Even if I did - even if I still did - that would have fuck all to do with you ignoring rock solid facts about this later scandal. Corbyn could survive being accused of being a spy and yet still have to leave the leadership - if he is found to have paid respects at the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Which he was happy to brag about to the Morning Star, when it was enhancing his right-on credentials.
His Morning Star Article says exactly what he is saying now.
Nothing said about the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Laying a wreath for the victims of the Tunisian air strike.
Your position yesterday was that it was the graves of the Munich bombers.
They are buried 1200 miles away.
Its pathetic havent you got something better to do than agree with made up stories
I don’t suppose there is anything he could have done that might draw your criticism is there?
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
Replacing Corbyn, even with a firm Corbynite, would have unpredictable effects.
Yes, although my hunch is that it would (will) lead to a rapid splintering of the loony left who at the moment are solidly Corbynista. That has tended to be the pattern in the past with extreme-left cults.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I appreciate these are 2 different questions, but I struggle to see why the leave vote changes by 3%. The only thought I had was that those 3% wanted to leave, but were so fed up that if there was another referendum they wouldn't vote or wanted to leave but couldn't be bothered to walk to the polling station. Any other thoughts?
Probably that there are a few people (some on this forum) who voted Remain (and still believe that was the best option) but think we should Leave because that was how the country voted in the 2016 poll. However, if asked to vote again, they would still vote Remain because they are given another chance.
I'd guess someone like Carlotta would fall into this band of voters, but could be wrong.
Extraordinary as it might seem, I think not. I would like to know why not. These two guys had already said as much to the newspapers before the case came to court – why didn't the defence call them to the stand??
Williamson is living proof there is always someone worse. Corbyn has good qualities, but at least in his public utterances I've yet to see the same in Williamson. He also seems far more extreme
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Expecting the Lib Dems to storm into government on the back of 'Rejoin the EU' in 2022?
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
It appears to be:
1 - He visited this graveyard in Tunisia 2 - He said it was to commemorate the victims of the 1985 Tunisian attack and those killed in 1991 3 - There were graves for the victims of the 1985 Tunisian attack and a memorial/graves for three high-ranking Black September members killed in Tunis in 1991. It is noted that the Black September memorial/graves were not next to those of the victims of the Tunisian attack in 1985 but 40-50 feet away from them. 4 - There were at least two wreath-laying ceremonies on the day. One was at the graves of those killed in the Tunisian attack in 1985; another was at the graves of the Black September "martyrs" 5 - He wasn't at the front or near the wreath on the ceremony for the victims of the Tunisian attack in 1985 6 - He was literally holding the wreath for the ceremony of the Black September "martyrs" and photographs indicate he joined in the prayer ceremony for them.
Those appear to have been established beyond reasonable doubt. The first two from the Morning Star article Corbyn himself wrote. The others from photographs of the event.
Some people appear to be trying to muddy the water by pointing out that some Black September terrorists who were killed by German security forces during the Munich atrocity itself were buried elsewhere and pretend that these are the people in question.
Corbyn himself (and the Labour Party spokepeople) have variously claimed he wasn't at the wreath ceremony, he was only there for the 1985 victims, and (when the photographic evidence listed at 5 and 6 above came out) that he may have been there but wasn't involved. Even this latter appears to have been rowed back upon.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Notwithstanding the referendum and the invocation of Article 50, the most consequential decisions about Brexit still lie ahead, and it's very much not a done deal.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Yes, we're back to over-certitude, which, given the twists and turns of the last two years, would seem to be misplaced. There may be a second referendum (modulo the logistics look chancy). Labour may officially support Remain, which would make May's job even harder, and so on and so forth.
I think a lot of people see 'Brexit' as an event, whereas it's obviously a process, and a reversible process at that.
Replacing Corbyn, even with a firm Corbynite, would have unpredictable effects.
Yes, although my hunch is that it would (will) lead to a rapid splintering of the loony left who at the moment are solidly Corbynista. That has tended to be the pattern in the past with extreme-left cults.
Yes, I think if (say) Rayner or Long–Bailey were to take over they would immediately be cast as not proper lefties. There is a cult of personality around Corbyn himself.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Expecting the Lib Dems to storm into government on the back of 'Rejoin the EU' in 2022?
If, as now seems likely, Britain leaves the EU on a deal that is discredited with almost everyone and where a majority would prefer to stay in the EU, you can work out for yourself the likelihood that the subject will be allowed to rest.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
I miss previous times, (like the 1990s for example), when almost everyone could agree on the facts of an incident, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of it.
It's taken a lot longer than 45 minutes to reach this point, but every argument over facts leaves me reeling as though hit by a [tax] bombshell.
Extraordinary as it might seem, I think not. I would like to know why not. These two guys had already said as much to the newspapers before the case came to court – why didn't the defence call them to the stand??
Presumably the prosecution didn't call them because they were seen as not being helpful to the prosecution.
And presumably the defence didn't call them because they would have said some things that were seen as not being helpful to the defence.
Extraordinary as it might seem, I think not. I would like to know why not. These two guys had already said as much to the newspapers before the case came to court – why didn't the defence call them to the stand??
Presumably the prosecution didn't call them because they were seen as not being helpful to the prosecution.
And presumably the defence didn't call them because they would have said some things that were seen as not being helpful to the defence.
I assume Stokes probably wanted them to be called as it'd have made good PR for him, but his brief probably spotted a potential line the prosecution might have skewered him on. Obviously this case is much less serious but the Irving/Lipstadt trial movie showed why this sort of thing can happen.
So why on earth weren't they called as defence witnesses? And what happened to Alex Hales? Did he give evidence? It was a weird trial.
The Telegraph have an article on the trial and trying to explain. They say that this couple was so drunk on the night they could not tell a straight story to the police for evidence. Hence both defence and prosecution decided not to call them as witnesses because they could not be sure what story would be told. On the ABH issue they say that the Lead Prosecutor tried to change the charge to ABH before the trial, but the Judge ruled that there was insufficient time for the defence to respond, so the charge stayed.
There was torrential rain. Maybe the additional weight of water placed a terminal stress on some part of the structure - or the water washed away some support.
I think the news said it was undergoing maintenance.
A large part of that bill will be to pay rent for tenants in Social Housing
Whilst that is undoubtedly true I am at a loss as to why the government has not announced a major social housing program. It's frankly a no brainer with the deficit falling much faster than anticipated, a desperate need for housing, a dysfunctional FTB market and the backlog of decades of under provision. There is, I think, a further £1bn committed to this in the coming year but that was rightly described as "chickenfeed" on R4 this morning. £10bn would be a lot more sensible and the economic benefits would be significant.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
I miss previous times, (like the 1990s for example), when almost everyone could agree on the facts of an incident, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of it.
It's taken a lot longer than 45 minutes to reach this point, but every argument over facts leaves me reeling as though hit by a [tax] bombshell.
See also debates on intentions/courses of Argentinian cruisers.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
I miss previous times, (like the 1990s for example), when almost everyone could agree on the facts of an incident, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of it.
It's taken a lot longer than 45 minutes to reach this point, but every argument over facts leaves me reeling as though hit by a [tax] bombshell.
I'm not so sure about the Good Old Days. The blessed Margaret's full quote of
" there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."
Extraordinary as it might seem, I think not. I would like to know why not. These two guys had already said as much to the newspapers before the case came to court – why didn't the defence call them to the stand??
Presumably the prosecution didn't call them because they were seen as not being helpful to the prosecution.
And presumably the defence didn't call them because they would have said some things that were seen as not being helpful to the defence.
On this description their evidence would have been very useful against both Hale and Ali (in respect of the bottles). It's almost as if the sheer volume of CCTV footage distracted the Crown from, you know, witnesses.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Expecting the Lib Dems to storm into government on the back of 'Rejoin the EU' in 2022?
If, as now seems likely, Britain leaves the EU on a deal that is discredited with almost everyone and where a majority would prefer to stay in the EU, you can work out for yourself the likelihood that the subject will be allowed to rest.
Replacing Corbyn, even with a firm Corbynite, would have unpredictable effects.
Yes, although my hunch is that it would (will) lead to a rapid splintering of the loony left who at the moment are solidly Corbynista. That has tended to be the pattern in the past with extreme-left cults.
Yes, I think if (say) Rayner or Long–Bailey were to take over they would immediately be cast as not proper lefties. There is a cult of personality around Corbyn himself.
My guess would be Yvette Cooper followed by a return to something like normality. Momentum would splutter for few weeks and McClusky would remind us why we never liked him and later that year she'd win a landslide not seen since Blair. Boris will go and live with Bannon and Ed will become a huge TV star......
So why on earth weren't they called as defence witnesses? And what happened to Alex Hales? Did he give evidence? It was a weird trial.
The Telegraph have an article on the trial and trying to explain. They say that this couple was so drunk on the night they could not tell a straight story to the police for evidence. Hence both defence and prosecution decided not to call them as witnesses because they could not be sure what story would be told. On the ABH issue they say that the Lead Prosecutor tried to change the charge to ABH before the trial, but the Judge ruled that there was insufficient time for the defence to respond, so the charge stayed.
He's a very lucky young man who hopefully has learned an important lesson.
A large part of that bill will be to pay rent for tenants in Social Housing
Whilst that is undoubtedly true I am at a loss as to why the government has not announced a major social housing program. It's frankly a no brainer with the deficit falling much faster than anticipated, a desperate need for housing, a dysfunctional FTB market and the backlog of decades of under provision. There is, I think, a further £1bn committed to this in the coming year but that was rightly described as "chickenfeed" on R4 this morning. £10bn would be a lot more sensible and the economic benefits would be significant.
It was a no brainer twelve months since. One can only conclude that the government has no brains.
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Expecting the Lib Dems to storm into government on the back of 'Rejoin the EU' in 2022?
If, as now seems likely, Britain leaves the EU on a deal that is discredited with almost everyone and where a majority would prefer to stay in the EU, you can work out for yourself the likelihood that the subject will be allowed to rest.
To say the least, I'm tolerably confident that no matter how sick the voters might be about hearing about Brexit and the EU, it is going to be dominating politics for years to come.
A large part of that bill will be to pay rent for tenants in Social Housing
Whilst that is undoubtedly true I am at a loss as to why the government has not announced a major social housing program. It's frankly a no brainer with the deficit falling much faster than anticipated, a desperate need for housing, a dysfunctional FTB market and the backlog of decades of under provision. There is, I think, a further £1bn committed to this in the coming year but that was rightly described as "chickenfeed" on R4 this morning. £10bn would be a lot more sensible and the economic benefits would be significant.
In Southern Hampshire there is defintely a major house buidling program going on. Literally tens of thousands of homes are being built. I h\ve never seen anything like it in this area.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I think the most striking finding is that people in Britain have the following ratings for "erratic" government, putting our own government third in the world, only behind Trump and Putin:
USA 74% Russia 66% Britain 44% Italy 41% China 38% France 28% Germany 23% Nordic countries 3-5%
If we find our own government erratic, should we be surprised that other EU countries feel the same?
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Expecting the Lib Dems to storm into government on the back of 'Rejoin the EU' in 2022?
If, as now seems likely, Britain leaves the EU on a deal that is discredited with almost everyone and where a majority would prefer to stay in the EU, you can work out for yourself the likelihood that the subject will be allowed to rest.
Really?
It won't be over and done with though, will it? If we leave as planned in 2019, we just enter another cycle of negotiations in which Chequers gets whittled down to something workable.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
I miss previous times, (like the 1990s for example), when almost everyone could agree on the facts of an incident, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of it.
It's taken a lot longer than 45 minutes to reach this point, but every argument over facts leaves me reeling as though hit by a [tax] bombshell.
I'm not so sure about the Good Old Days. The blessed Margaret's full quote of
" there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."
is often simply truncated to:
"There is no such thing as society"
which has an entirely different connotation.
Indeed so. It means the exact, diametric opposite of what the Left know, as an incontrovertible truth, that she said.
Another good example is the decline in coal production and employment during the Thatcher years. It is almost impossible to get anyone to believe the truth - that both declined less under Thatcher than they did in the same periods before and after her premiership; they absolutely believe, in the face of all evidence, that she destroyed coal mining in the UK.
In July 2006, Benjamin Netanyahu unveiled a plaque & gave a speech commemorating the terrorists who blew up the British Embassy in Jerusalem killing 91 people including more than 20 Britons. He praised them as freedom fighters.
In 2014 Corbyn laid a wreath for the innocent victims of the Tunisia attack on the PLO headquarters. The cemetery was only 1200 miles away from the cemetery where the Munich killers were buried
Replacing Corbyn, even with a firm Corbynite, would have unpredictable effects.
Yes, although my hunch is that it would (will) lead to a rapid splintering of the loony left who at the moment are solidly Corbynista. That has tended to be the pattern in the past with extreme-left cults.
Yes, I think if (say) Rayner or Long–Bailey were to take over they would immediately be cast as not proper lefties. There is a cult of personality around Corbyn himself.
My guess would be Yvette Cooper followed by a return to something like normality. Momentum would splutter for few weeks and McClusky would remind us why we never liked him and later that year she'd win a landslide not seen since Blair. Boris will go and live with Bannon and Ed will become a huge TV star......
To my eyes I see some incompatible connections in there. Ms Cooper is only a slightly more flexible type of lumber than Mrs May.
Her landslide is harder to imaging than a JC landslide. Huge and Ed seem to be mutually exclusive also.
How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?
Remain: 47% Leave: 41%
At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?
Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47% Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
And no remainers have died. Silly argument
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Expecting the Lib Dems to storm into government on the back of 'Rejoin the EU' in 2022?
If, as now seems likely, Britain leaves the EU on a deal that is discredited with almost everyone and where a majority would prefer to stay in the EU, you can work out for yourself the likelihood that the subject will be allowed to rest.
Replacing Corbyn, even with a firm Corbynite, would have unpredictable effects.
Yes, although my hunch is that it would (will) lead to a rapid splintering of the loony left who at the moment are solidly Corbynista. That has tended to be the pattern in the past with extreme-left cults.
Yes, I think if (say) Rayner or Long–Bailey were to take over they would immediately be cast as not proper lefties. There is a cult of personality around Corbyn himself.
My guess would be Yvette Cooper followed by a return to something like normality. Momentum would splutter for few weeks and McClusky would remind us why we never liked him and later that year she'd win a landslide not seen since Blair. Boris will go and live with Bannon and Ed will become a huge TV star......
A large part of that bill will be to pay rent for tenants in Social Housing
Whilst that is undoubtedly true I am at a loss as to why the government has not announced a major social housing program. It's frankly a no brainer with the deficit falling much faster than anticipated, a desperate need for housing, a dysfunctional FTB market and the backlog of decades of under provision. There is, I think, a further £1bn committed to this in the coming year but that was rightly described as "chickenfeed" on R4 this morning. £10bn would be a lot more sensible and the economic benefits would be significant.
In Southern Hampshire there is defintely a major house buidling program going on. Literally tens of thousands of homes are being built. I h\ve never seen anything like it in this area.
The figures I heard this morning was that there was 6k affordable homes built last year, about the same this year and 12k next year. We probably need something like 50k a year for several years, some would say more. But if you are wanting a fast boost, and we do, then getting Housing Associations to accelerate schemes they already have in the pipeline is the way to go.
In July 2006, Benjamin Netanyahu unveiled a plaque & gave a speech commemorating the terrorists who blew up the British Embassy in Jerusalem killing 91 people including more than 20 Britons. He praised them as freedom fighters.
In 2014 Corbyn laid a wreath for the innocent victims of the Tunisia attack on the PLO headquarters. The cemetery was only 1200 miles away from the cemetery where the Munich killers were buried
Spot the terrorist sympathiser
If Netenyahu is your standard for who might be acceptable as a potential Prime Minister, then you've got problems.
Can someone (nonpartisan) clarify this Corbyn story? Seems to be a lot of doubt now about whether the wreath was for the terrorists or the Israeli airstrikes.
I'm partisan pro-Corbyn and I reckon it looks pretty bad. I'm persuaded he has put a wreath on a terrorist's grave/stood next to people doing that and that he should apologise and (again) condemn the Munich attacks.
Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
You neglected to note that Leave won the last referendum.
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
Since the starting point of the thread was the joint highest Remain tally that YouGov have shown in all the period since the referendum, perhaps not the best day to make that argument.
Academic, since there won't be another referendum. The question was asked and answered.
The past is never dead. It's not even past.
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Expecting the Lib Dems to storm into government on the back of 'Rejoin the EU' in 2022?
If, as now seems likely, Britain leaves the EU on a deal that is discredited with almost everyone and where a majority would prefer to stay in the EU, you can work out for yourself the likelihood that the subject will be allowed to rest.
To say the least, I'm tolerably confident that no matter how sick the voters might be about hearing about Brexit and the EU, it is going to be dominating politics for years to come.
No doubt.
But 'Rejoin' is a very different question to 'Remain'.
A large part of that bill will be to pay rent for tenants in Social Housing
Whilst that is undoubtedly true I am at a loss as to why the government has not announced a major social housing program. It's frankly a no brainer with the deficit falling much faster than anticipated, a desperate need for housing, a dysfunctional FTB market and the backlog of decades of under provision. There is, I think, a further £1bn committed to this in the coming year but that was rightly described as "chickenfeed" on R4 this morning. £10bn would be a lot more sensible and the economic benefits would be significant.
It was a no brainer twelve months since. One can only conclude that the government has no brains.
Or is excessively fiscally conservative with a small c. I tend that way myself but you can't have the population of Coventry coming to this country year after year without building the houses for people to live in. This needs action (the political upside would also be considerable but that is or should be a secondary consideration).
Comments
If Boris became Prime Minister he'd probably sell the country to Disney and rename us the United Magic Kingdom.
We'd all be theme park employees for Disney - we might as well be now to be honest thanks to the debasing of our currency.
Italian minister confirming at least 30 dead and many injured. Terrifying.
It should read: 'His base is completely deluded.'
Christ, I hope when Boris wins his fans do not act with such irrational levels of devotion, it is completely absurd.
Nothing said about the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.
Laying a wreath for the victims of the Tunisian air strike.
Your position yesterday was that it was the graves of the Munich bombers.
They are buried 1200 miles away.
Its pathetic havent you got something better to do than agree with made up stories
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-confirms-he-will-campaign-for-uk-to-leave-eu-referendum-a6887596.html
I've been hearing 'X's voters are dying out' for four decades.
And what have we got? A government elected by the over-100's it would appear
How on earth did we end up here ?
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1028899190393528321
You must have a dirty mind....
Anyone know if its about GE2022
https://twitter.com/LatestMessiah/status/1029366831201562626
https://twitter.com/LatestMessiah
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1029378352099074048
A case of the unsackable in pursuit of the unbackable?
The idea that Brexit is going to be just a historical event any time in the near future is for the birds.
Or laid a wreath to remember the Olympic bombers
https://medium.com/@anyabike/corbyns-open-secret-22a70fa03254
https://twitter.com/david_conn/status/1029379564722630656
I'd guess someone like Carlotta would fall into this band of voters, but could be wrong.
1 - He visited this graveyard in Tunisia
2 - He said it was to commemorate the victims of the 1985 Tunisian attack and those killed in 1991
3 - There were graves for the victims of the 1985 Tunisian attack and a memorial/graves for three high-ranking Black September members killed in Tunis in 1991. It is noted that the Black September memorial/graves were not next to those of the victims of the Tunisian attack in 1985 but 40-50 feet away from them.
4 - There were at least two wreath-laying ceremonies on the day. One was at the graves of those killed in the Tunisian attack in 1985; another was at the graves of the Black September "martyrs"
5 - He wasn't at the front or near the wreath on the ceremony for the victims of the Tunisian attack in 1985
6 - He was literally holding the wreath for the ceremony of the Black September "martyrs" and photographs indicate he joined in the prayer ceremony for them.
Those appear to have been established beyond reasonable doubt. The first two from the Morning Star article Corbyn himself wrote. The others from photographs of the event.
Some people appear to be trying to muddy the water by pointing out that some Black September terrorists who were killed by German security forces during the Munich atrocity itself were buried elsewhere and pretend that these are the people in question.
Corbyn himself (and the Labour Party spokepeople) have variously claimed he wasn't at the wreath ceremony, he was only there for the 1985 victims, and (when the photographic evidence listed at 5 and 6 above came out) that he may have been there but wasn't involved. Even this latter appears to have been rowed back upon.
I think a lot of people see 'Brexit' as an event, whereas it's obviously a process, and a reversible process at that.
And presumably the defence didn't call them because they would have said some things that were seen as not being helpful to the defence.
Obviously this case is much less serious but the Irving/Lipstadt trial movie showed why this sort of thing can happen.
They say that this couple was so drunk on the night they could not tell a straight story to the police for evidence. Hence both defence and prosecution decided not to call them as witnesses because they could not be sure what story would be told.
On the ABH issue they say that the Lead Prosecutor tried to change the charge to ABH before the trial, but the Judge ruled that there was insufficient time for the defence to respond, so the charge stayed.
" there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."
is often simply truncated to:
"There is no such thing as society"
which has an entirely different connotation.
https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1027095300064862211
One can only conclude that the government has no brains.
To say the least, I'm tolerably confident that no matter how sick the voters might be about hearing about Brexit and the EU, it is going to be dominating politics for years to come.
USA 74%
Russia 66%
Britain 44%
Italy 41%
China 38%
France 28%
Germany 23%
Nordic countries 3-5%
If we find our own government erratic, should we be surprised that other EU countries feel the same?
Another good example is the decline in coal production and employment during the Thatcher years. It is almost impossible to get anyone to believe the truth - that both declined less under Thatcher than they did in the same periods before and after her premiership; they absolutely believe, in the face of all evidence, that she destroyed coal mining in the UK.
In 2014 Corbyn laid a wreath for the innocent victims of the Tunisia attack on the PLO headquarters. The cemetery was only 1200 miles away from the cemetery where the Munich killers were buried
Spot the terrorist sympathiser
Ms Cooper is only a slightly more flexible type of lumber than Mrs May.
Her landslide is harder to imaging than a JC landslide.
Huge and Ed seem to be mutually exclusive also.
I'm guessing it depends on the precise nature of the questions asked.
That latter question splits the left about 6 ways then had immigration and BREXIT.
Expect headlines that the latter 2 are most important issues
But 'Rejoin' is a very different question to 'Remain'.