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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,533

    There is no "mobility framework", it doesn't exist. It's just a name, that's all. You shouldn't go around believing that things exist just because they have a name.
    It is not free movement, though it will still allow travel between the UK and EU for study and work
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,667

    My condolences also.

    As you say, modern medicine can do wonders, but we are all of us still vulnerable to rotten luck.
    Yes - sympathies, Josiah.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,953

    I do criticise them, as I am against violence in all forms, because, as you know, I am a vegetarian. Now stop criticising Israel, when for decades Iran and Pakistan have defined themselves as Islamic Republics.

    There's that newsreel clip at Partition showing a signpost with a sign pointing one way saying "Republic of India" and in the opposite direction saying "Islamic Republic of Pakistan."
    Remind me again what the definition of "whataboutery" is?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited August 2018
    HYUFD said:

    It is not free movement, though it will still allow travel between the UK and EU for study and work
    To allow anything, it would have to *exist*. Since it doesn't, in fact, exist, nor is it ever going to exist beyond being a name, then making any statements about what it does is just gibberish.

    You may as well say the immobility framework will give everyone a free owl and make us all smell faintly of asparagus for all the sense it makes.

    I think you're making that common Brexiteer mistake of confusing the reality inside your head with external reality again. That's been happening a lot recently.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    saddo said:

    I wonder why the anti-Semitic back history of Corbyn appears to be sticking whilst his in many ways worse support and promotion of the IRA hasn't so far.

    Where is the proof that it is sticking at all outside a sub-section of lovers of Israel ?
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    I do criticise them, as I am against violence in all forms, because, as you know, I am a vegetarian. Now stop criticising Israel, when for decades Iran and Pakistan have defined themselves as Islamic Republics.

    There's that newsreel clip at Partition showing a signpost with a sign pointing one way saying "Republic of India" and in the opposite direction saying "Islamic Republic of Pakistan."
    So you are now comparing Israel and Iran ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,533
    edited August 2018

    To allow anything, it would have to *exist*. Since it doesn't, in fact, exist, nor is it ever going to exist beyond being a name, then making any statements about what it does is just gibberish.

    You may as well say the immobility framework will give everyone a free owl and make us all smell faintly of asparagus for all the sense it makes.

    I think you're making that common Brexiteer mistake of confusing the reality inside your head with external reality again. That's been happening a lot recently.
    It will exist for the duration of the transition period once we have left the EU and will end the right of free movement to come for up to 3 months even without a job offer and replace it with a requirement to have a job offer or an offer of a study placement on a course.


    Even the EU has few complaints about it in terms of agreeing the transition, they are more concerned with the need for more alignment on services regulation as well as on goods regulation as May has proposed to avoid a hard border in Ireland
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited August 2018
    HYUFD said:



    It will exist for the duration of the transition period once we have left the EU and will end the right of free movement to cone for up to 3 months even without a job offer and replace it with a requirement to have a job offer or an offer of a study placement on a course.

    It won't exist, because it's cake of the most blatant kind. If May were to seriously propose this bit of cake *now* she'd be laughed out of Europe. What part of the "no cake" are Brexiteers struggling to understand?

    NO. CAKE.

    The EU will never agree to anything of the sort. The EU27 were in little mood to put up with any cake bullshit before the Chequers fiasco. Now, Barnier's hearty chortles of derision that would ensue if that's what the goverment seriously asked for would be heard around the world.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,533
    edited August 2018

    It won't exist, because it's cake of the most blatant kind. If May were to seriously propose this bit of cake *now* she'd be laughed out of Europe. What part of the "no cake" are Brexiteers struggling to understand?

    NO. CAKE.

    The EU will never agree to anything of the sort. The EU27 were in little mood to put up with any cake bullshit before the Chequers fiasco. Now, Barnier's hearty chortles of derision that would ensue if that's what the goverment seriously asked for would be heard around the world.
    She hasn't been laughed out of Europe, that is precisely the point. She ran it past Merkel first and Barnier as I said is more concerned about the need for more alignment on services regulation which is the last bit of the withdrawal and transition period agreement that needs completion, not the mobility framework on which he has made no complaint in his post Chequers Deal statements in terms of agreeing the transition (note we would still technically leave the single market, so no cake either)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,222
    surby said:

    The crisis amounts to this: Labour cannot win Hendon and Barnet.
    The crisis amounts to this: to anyone of a liberal or soft-left persuasion, Labour currently looks like it is led by a complete bunch of c****........

    Good luck getting them to vote for you.
  • surby said:

    So you are now comparing Israel and Iran ?
    I thought you were the one criticizing Israel?
  • viewcode said:

    Remind me again what the definition of "whataboutery" is?
    surby: "Whataboutisrael" :)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Venezuela President Maduro 'survives drone attack'"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45073385
  • The crisis amounts to this: to anyone of a liberal or soft-left persuasion, Labour currently looks like it is led by a complete bunch of c****........

    Good luck getting them to vote for you.
    If that was the case, Labour’s poll ratings would have totally collapsed by now - this story has been running for months after all. Remember, it was also said on here last year that the soft left and liberal voters would never even touch Corbyn’s Labour, and many of those voters went on to vote for them - in spite of all the very damning headlines about Corbyn and co.

    Corbyn’s real challenge is attracting voters outside of his current coalition to Labour over the coming years, as it won’t be enough to get him over the line atm.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,222

    If that was the case, Labour’s poll ratings would have totally collapsed by now - this story has been running for months after all. Remember, it was also said on here last year that the soft left and liberal voters would never even touch Corbyn’s Labour, and many of those voters went on to vote for them - in spite of all the very damning headlines about Corbyn and co.

    Corbyn’s real challenge is attracting voters outside of his current coalition to Labour over the coming years, as it won’t be enough to get him over the line atm.
    This has been a slow burn - but has got far more traction in the past 7 days. Expect it to start appearing in polling in coming weeks, as a reduction in Labour's certainty to vote figures....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    AndyJS said:

    "Venezuela President Maduro 'survives drone attack'"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45073385

    Not a good look:

    Dozens of soldiers were seen running away before the broadcast was cut off.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Tom Watson could resign, most of the shadow cabinet tried that in 2016 and it just strengthened Corbyn's position. Outside of that the general tactic is to sit there and whine.

    I don't want to come across as over confident but this tactic has been attempted by people within Labour previously and done nothing.

    @The_Apocalypse

    I don't think Labour will add many votes overall on what was a huge total but less votes in safe seats and more votes in marginals with a falling Tory vote would do it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    This has been a slow burn - but has got far more traction in the past 7 days. Expect it to start appearing in polling in coming weeks, as a reduction in Labour's certainty to vote figures....
    TBH, I doubt it. Much as what I see as reprehensible going on in the Labour Party - asking why Frank Field is a Labour MP ffs! it does not directly impact on most people's lives. Much of the (tiny) Jewish vote (which wasn't remotely homogenous in any case) will be gone for a very long time, if not for good. It does paint the picture as a bunch of infighting bickerers (remind you of any other political party?), but Labours leads on issues voters see as important - the NHS and housing, for example, won't be affected. So no, I don't see this pushing Labour backwards - but it may very easily stop them making progress.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited August 2018

    This has been a slow burn - but has got far more traction in the past 7 days. Expect it to start appearing in polling in coming weeks, as a reduction in Labour's certainty to vote figures....
    I don’t see how it’s got far more traction in the past 7 days. The Facebook murial story that broke a few months ago directly implicated Corbyn in the same way that many of the stories published recently do. The Facebook murial story received significant coverage on the news channels and the evening news, and the saga then made the front page of many of the papers. Arguably, the IHRA saga has featured on the front pages somewhat less than the Facebook murial story did. This story was noticed by the public, as evidenced by the decline in Corbyn’s ratings (that, tbf had already begun with Sailsbury). But for whatever reason, that did not lead to those voters who were dissatisfied with Corbyn’s performance walking away from Labour.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Is he referring to the writer of the article?
  • Tom Watson could resign, most of the shadow cabinet tried that in 2016 and it just strengthened Corbyn's position. Outside of that the general tactic is to sit there and whine.

    I don't want to come across as over confident but this tactic has been attempted by people within Labour previously and done nothing.

    @The_Apocalypse

    I don't think Labour will add many votes overall on what was a huge total but less votes in safe seats and more votes in marginals with a falling Tory vote would do it.

    It has been said that the next GE will come down to who loses the most votes, not who wins the votes and I wouldn’t be surprised to see that happen.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    edited August 2018
    AndyJS said:
    I presume so.....

    Lynsey Hanley is an author and a visiting fellow in cultural studies at Liverpool John Moores University

    Most recommended comments:

    Frank Field is as good as it gets in the Labour Party. Frank Field is too good for the Labour Party.

    If he is deselected I hope he stands as an independent. That will show Labour what's happened to its core working class vote. Sorry, guardianistas!

    So he campaigns against poverty, set up the Feeding Britain charity and is a vocal opponent of universal credit. But because he has the temerity to also oppose anti-social behaviour, approves of self reliance and respectability and (like Corbyn) is pro-Brexit he should be deselected.

    This is how far Labour have fallen.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2018

    I presume so.....

    Lynsey Hanley is an author and a visiting fellow in cultural studies at Liverpool John Moores University

    Most recommended comments:

    Frank Field is as good as it gets in the Labour Party. Frank Field is too good for the Labour Party.

    If he is deselected I hope he stands as an independent. That will show Labour what's happened to its core working class vote. Sorry, guardianistas!

    So he campaigns against poverty, set up the Feeding Britain charity and is a vocal opponent of universal credit. But because he has the temerity to also oppose anti-social behaviour, approves of self reliance and respectability and (like Corbyn) is pro-Brexit he should be deselected.

    This is how far Labour have fallen.
    Incidentally, I read Lynsey Hanley's book about council estates a couple of years ago and found it very informative and interesting.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Estates-Intimate-History-Lynsey-Hanley/dp/1847087027
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313
    New thread!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    While the media are interested in antisemitism I have noticed remainers getting a lot angrier. Brexit was something I hadn't heard anyone discussing until a couple of weeks ago. But now I am hearing it being criticised openly. Indeed I walked past someone in a shopping street having a right old rant. I know the polls aren't moving but they don't pick up intensity of feeling.
This discussion has been closed.