When will they realise that a) they have been totally, comprehensively beaten and humiliated, and b) their residual loyalty to the labour party (they resign, they don't join another party) plays 100% in to Corbyn's hands.
The logic of their position is that they should fight to destroy the labour party.
@Acorn_Antiques I agree with you on a new centrist party. People are clearly attached to the Labour brand. What happened to Danczuk is a prime example.
I really wouldn't read too much in the Danczuk example given the allegations that were brought against him.
Just to interject a note of cheer into this chorus of doom, today I went with my daughters to see the Bee statues in Manchester. Well they're wonderful. The whole city feels like an art gallery or a museum; people stop and chat with strangers while examining them, and best of all there are children in the city. I'm very fond of Manchester, but it can feel a very adult place which discourages chdilren - but here was a reason to show my children my city, and for them to enjoy it. Someone - can't remember who and can't be bothered to look it up - once said that the presence of children is an important indicator of the health of a city: if that is true - and I think there is something in it - Manchester just got a lot healthier.
I don't know how the bees stand up as art, and I don't really care. I'm not Brian Sewell, thank God. But they're very jolly and far more uplifting than any of the whingey shite in the Tate Modern.
A breakaway 'Reality Labour' party under Watson could garner sufficient numbers to become the official opposition party in the Commons. I hate the thought of Watson leading anything as he is an odious toad but he should do this for the good of our democracy.
Which they won't do, especially not the sitting MPs. I think that 3 or 4 have resigned from the party or had the whip withdrawn, usually in response to serious disciplinary charges (contested or otherwise.) Margaret Hodge has picked a fight with the leadership, but she's 73 IIRC and therefore has no career left to lose. Most of them are more-or-less silent. They've given up.
The calculation of the moderates is, presumably, that if the public aren't put off Corbyn by all of this then they won't suffer any damage through association. They are going to sit it out and hope that events come to their rescue - either that Corbyn is defeated in another election and all the wind is knocked out of the revolution, or that he has some health incident that removes him from office.
The latter is very unlikely, given that he's not that old and appears to be well, and if they're putting their faith in the former then they're kidding themselves. The faith of Corbyn's followers is unshakeable, and even if he is defeated in a GE he'll either keep plodding on, or make sure that the leadership election rules guarantee the success of an ideologically approved candidate before he resigns.
The Far Left won't make the same mistakes as the Centre-Left have done: no opportunity will be afforded for a counter-revolution. The Labour Party is theirs now - permanently.
In which case whether Corbyn wins or loses the next general election a new centrist party will ultimately be inevitable
We shall see. I'm not so sure. Problem with trying to replace Labour is that people are used to Labour. Most Labour (and Conservative) voters do it out of habit. Any new centrist party would scarcely get a look in.
That's another reason why potential Labour defectors have given up. If they leave the party they have to fight the party name. In a high-profile by-election they might stand a chance, but in a general election they'd be wiped out by the habit voters. All that would happen is they'd get an extra helping of being roasted alive by incandescent far Leftists for peeling a few thousand votes off Labour candidates here and there and letting a few dozen extra Tories in through the middle.
And yes, I know, this is all dreadfully pessimistic. But I find that if I assume the worst in situations such as these then I'm less disappointed when I'm proved right.
The SDP-Liberal Alliance got 25% at the 1983 general election, similar to the score En Marche got in the first round in France.
I expect a new centrist party here would get a similar score without much difficulty and would merge with the LDs.
Arguably without the SDP there would have been no New Labour a decade later
When will they realise that a) they have been totally, comprehensively beaten and humiliated, and b) their residual loyalty to the labour party (they resign, they don't join another party) plays 100% in to Corbyn's hands.
The logic of their position is that they should fight to destroy the labour party.
A breakaway 'Reality Labour' party under Watson could garner sufficient numbers to become the official opposition party in the Commons. I hate the thought of Watson leading anything as he is an odious toad but he should do this for the good of our democracy.
Maybe it is the late evening and humid summer air, but this feels like something important is happening.
Wishful thinking. The moderates are already defeated, they have no means to remove the leader and they're too frightened to push the nuclear button and split.
If enough of them went en bloc to replace Labour outright as the Parliamentary Opposition then they might stand a chance of success, but the risk of the left-wing vote splitting evenly and wiping both sides out in an election is too great for them.
They'll just sit on their hands and hope that something turns up. Which it most likely won't. The Far Left doesn't even need to bother with deselecting such cowed individuals, it can just wait until they find other jobs or retire and then select pliant Momentum activists or ex-SWP entryists to fill their seats.
When will they realise that a) they have been totally, comprehensively beaten and humiliated, and b) their residual loyalty to the labour party (they resign, they don't join another party) plays 100% in to Corbyn's hands.
The logic of their position is that they should fight to destroy the labour party.
Which they won't do, especially not the sitting MPs. I think that 3 or 4 have resigned from the party or had the whip withdrawn, usually in response to serious disciplinary charges (contested or otherwise.) Margaret Hodge has picked a fight with the leadership, but she's 73 IIRC and therefore has no career left to lose. Most of them are more-or-less silent. They've given up.
The calculation of the moderates is, presumably, that if the public aren't put off Corbyn by all of this then they won't suffer any damage through association. They are going to sit it out and hope that events come to their rescue - either that Corbyn is defeated in another election and all the wind is knocked out of the revolution, or that he has some health incident that removes him from office.
The latter is very unlikely, given that he's not that old and appears to be well, and if they're putting their faith in the former then they're kidding themselves. The faith of Corbyn's followers is unshakeable, and even if he is defeated in a GE he'll either keep plodding on, or make sure that the leadership election rules guarantee the success of an ideologically approved candidate before he resigns.
The Far Left won't make the same mistakes as the Centre-Left have done: no opportunity will be afforded for a counter-revolution. The Labour Party is theirs now - permanently.
The 'sit tight' theory is 3 years old. They can't seriously believe in it. So, events have basically revealed them to be useless careerists. They all deserve to be deselected.
Sky saying that Watson has declared war on Corbyn.
The crisis for labour just gets worse day by day
Frankly, about bloody time. Is this the moment?
No. Much of Corbyn’s front bench resigned two years ago and the PLP passed a vote of no confidence in him and he still survived. The moment will come only when the members turn against him.
Or more likely the voters
He only increased the Labour vote from 30% to 40%.
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
It isn't given how pivotal reducing immigration was to the Leave win
When will they realise that a) they have been totally, comprehensively beaten and humiliated, and b) their residual loyalty to the labour party (they resign, they don't join another party) plays 100% in to Corbyn's hands.
The logic of their position is that they should fight to destroy the labour party.
Let me ask a question: why are Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John Mann and Gavin Stringer still members of the Labour Party.
These people are traitors.
Oh, do grow up. Just the other day you said that the Jewish Museum were preventing free speech by not allowing Corbyn to give a speech there.
You have lost the plot.
Those people you name will have done more for the Labour Party than you - an Internet warrior - have ever done.
I know. They supported a Conservative government win a vote by 3 votes. The bas****s.
They have done much more than that *for* the party. Then again, Corbyn's voting record isn't exactly *with* the party historically, is it? Why not treat him with the same level of contempt for disloyalty?
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
This is the summer labour tears itself apart
Haven't we heard this nonsense before too ?
Panic coursing through labour tonight
Somebody down thread made the correct observation. The Labour brand is too strong. About 60 MPs if they leave will ensure a Tory landslide but those traitors will be out for good.
Wishful thinking. The moderates are already defeated, they have no means to remove the leader and they're too frightened to push the nuclear button and split.
If enough of them went en bloc to replace Labour outright as the Parliamentary Opposition then they might stand a chance of success, but the risk of the left-wing vote splitting evenly and wiping both sides out in an election is too great for them.
They'll just sit on their hands and hope that something turns up. Which it most likely won't. The Far Left doesn't even need to bother with deselecting such cowed individuals, it can just wait until they find other jobs or retire and then select pliant Momentum activists or ex-SWP entryists to fill their seats.
And yet - for your average middle-of-the-party Labour MP, the fear of letting in the Tories must be looking less and less terrifying when compared to what is happening to their left.
They grumpily put up with Corbyn-onomics, because a lot of Labour MPs started out a long way to the left economically. They're not that way now, but they don't have the emotional antipathy to it that we might expect because many of them were there once. The head fights it, but the heart doesn't. But the anti-semitism stuff is a different kettle of fish. It raises the emotional hackles. So maybe this time it will be different. Maybe.
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
This is the summer labour tears itself apart
Haven't we heard this nonsense before too ?
Panic coursing through labour tonight
Somebody down thread made the correct observation. The Labour brand is too strong. About 60 MPs if they leave will ensure a Tory landslide but those traitors will be out for good.
So you think 60 labour mps will resign the whip. Even you seem to realise this is a big moment
When will they realise that a) they have been totally, comprehensively beaten and humiliated, and b) their residual loyalty to the labour party (they resign, they don't join another party) plays 100% in to Corbyn's hands.
The logic of their position is that they should fight to destroy the labour party.
Let me ask a question: why are Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John Mann and Gavin Stringer still members of the Labour Party.
These people are traitors.
Oh, do grow up. Just the other day you said that the Jewish Museum were preventing free speech by not allowing Corbyn to give a speech there.
You have lost the plot.
Those people you name will have done more for the Labour Party than you - an Internet warrior - have ever done.
I know. They supported a Conservative government win a vote by 3 votes. The bas****s.
They have done much more than that *for* the party. Then again, Corbyn's voting record isn't exactly *with* the party historically, is it? Why not treat him with the same level of contempt for disloyalty?
As I said above, you've lost the plot.
Yes, Corbyn voted against a Labour government but not when a Labour government could have fallen.
Well, Hilary Benn isn’t exactly a big fan of Corbyn either, so it’s not surprising other Benns might join him. Though Corbyn supporters said in response to Hilary opposing Corbyn that Corbyn was Tony Benn’s ‘spiritual son’ or whatever.
I've never been Emily Benn's biggest fan, and can't see why that should change now. And the stupid left will just see her as traducing the family's name; a non-entity living off the greats.
On the other hand, she's gone slightly up in my estimation for speaking out against Corbyn and his cult.
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
This is the summer labour tears itself apart
Haven't we heard this nonsense before too ?
Panic coursing through labour tonight
Somebody down thread made the correct observation. The Labour brand is too strong. About 60 MPs if they leave will ensure a Tory landslide but those traitors will be out for good.
So you think 60 labour mps will resign the whip. Even you seem to realise this is a big moment
Note the word "if". Probably 3 might resign. They are all cowards - in all parties.
Wishful thinking. The moderates are already defeated, they have no means to remove the leader and they're too frightened to push the nuclear button and split.
If enough of them went en bloc to replace Labour outright as the Parliamentary Opposition then they might stand a chance of success, but the risk of the left-wing vote splitting evenly and wiping both sides out in an election is too great for them.
They'll just sit on their hands and hope that something turns up. Which it most likely won't. The Far Left doesn't even need to bother with deselecting such cowed individuals, it can just wait until they find other jobs or retire and then select pliant Momentum activists or ex-SWP entryists to fill their seats.
And yet - for your average middle-of-the-party Labour MP, the fear of letting in the Tories must be looking less and less terrifying when compared to what is happening to their left.
They grumpily put up with Corbyn-onomics, because a lot of Labour MPs started out a long way to the left economically. They're not that way now, but they don't have the emotional antipathy to it that we might expect because many of them were there once. The head fights it, but the heart doesn't. But the anti-semitism stuff is a different kettle of fish. It raises the emotional hackles. So maybe this time it will be different. Maybe.
Nah. Most of Labour's MPs are limp as wet celery. And they have mortgages to finance.
Their version of the party is dead, but they'll stay on and support the replacement so they can keep collecting their wages.
When will they realise that a) they have been totally, comprehensively beaten and humiliated, and b) their residual loyalty to the labour party (they resign, they don't join another party) plays 100% in to Corbyn's hands.
The logic of their position is that they should fight to destroy the labour party.
Let me ask a question: why are Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John Mann and Gavin Stringer still members of the Labour Party.
These people are traitors.
Oh, do grow up. Just the other day you said that the Jewish Museum were preventing free speech by not allowing Corbyn to give a speech there.
You have lost the plot.
Those people you name will have done more for the Labour Party than you - an Internet warrior - have ever done.
I know. They supported a Conservative government win a vote by 3 votes. The bas****s.
They have done much more than that *for* the party. Then again, Corbyn's voting record isn't exactly *with* the party historically, is it? Why not treat him with the same level of contempt for disloyalty?
As I said above, you've lost the plot.
Yes, Corbyn voted against a Labour government but not when a Labour government could have fallen.
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
This is the summer labour tears itself apart
Haven't we heard this nonsense before too ?
Panic coursing through labour tonight
Thornberry clear Fav on BF at 7
She will be a great leader. But can't see it happening unless Corbyn stands down which I cannot see happening.
Jon Craig of Sky - 'This is a declaration of war against Corbyn' as he reads Tom Watson's statement to the Observer
He added 'labour mps are lining up behind Tom Watson to the anger of the hard left'
Haven't we heard this nonsense before ?
Not as it is only published in tomorrows Observer. And why is it nonsense. Tom Watson publicly taking on Corbyn is box office though expect deselection process will start soon no doubt.
This is the summer labour tears itself apart
Haven't we heard this nonsense before too ?
Panic coursing through labour tonight
Somebody down thread made the correct observation. The Labour brand is too strong. About 60 MPs if they leave will ensure a Tory landslide but those traitors will be out for good.
So you think 60 labour mps will resign the whip. Even you seem to realise this is a big moment
Note the word "if". Probably 3 might resign. They are all cowards - in all parties.
If Watson is leading a revolt as was suggested by Sky tonight he could have many labour mps willing to resign the whip. 130 and Corbyn would not lead the opposition
When will they realise that a) they have been totally, comprehensively beaten and humiliated, and b) their residual loyalty to the labour party (they resign, they don't join another party) plays 100% in to Corbyn's hands.
The logic of their position is that they should fight to destroy the labour party.
Let me ask a question: why are Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John Mann and Gavin Stringer still members of the Labour Party.
These people are traitors.
Oh, do grow up. Just the other day you said that the Jewish Museum were preventing free speech by not allowing Corbyn to give a speech there.
You have lost the plot.
Those people you name will have done more for the Labour Party than you - an Internet warrior - have ever done.
I know. They supported a Conservative government win a vote by 3 votes. The bas****s.
They have done much more than that *for* the party. Then again, Corbyn's voting record isn't exactly *with* the party historically, is it? Why not treat him with the same level of contempt for disloyalty?
As I said above, you've lost the plot.
Yes, Corbyn voted against a Labour government but not when a Labour government could have fallen.
That is just pathetic. Corbyn is as much a 'traitor' - to use your word - as these people. More so, n fact, if you take his voting record into account.
The odd thing is that I actually quite like that: I don't particularly like the whipping system, and like independently-minded MPs. But Corbyn goes too far.
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
It isn't given how pivotal reducing immigration was to the Leave win
It’s a fantasy because it’s completely detached from the reality of what it entails. It’s politics by numbers.
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
It isn't given how pivotal reducing immigration was to the Leave win
It’s a fantasy because it’s completely detached from the reality of what it entails. It’s politics by numbers.
It isn't as even May is technically leaving the single market and ending free movement in the Chequers Deal
Wishful thinking. The moderates are already defeated, they have no means to remove the leader and they're too frightened to push the nuclear button and split.
If enough of them went en bloc to replace Labour outright as the Parliamentary Opposition then they might stand a chance of success, but the risk of the left-wing vote splitting evenly and wiping both sides out in an election is too great for them.
They'll just sit on their hands and hope that something turns up. Which it most likely won't. The Far Left doesn't even need to bother with deselecting such cowed individuals, it can just wait until they find other jobs or retire and then select pliant Momentum activists or ex-SWP entryists to fill their seats.
And yet - for your average middle-of-the-party Labour MP, the fear of letting in the Tories must be looking less and less terrifying when compared to what is happening to their left.
They grumpily put up with Corbyn-onomics, because a lot of Labour MPs started out a long way to the left economically. They're not that way now, but they don't have the emotional antipathy to it that we might expect because many of them were there once. The head fights it, but the heart doesn't. But the anti-semitism stuff is a different kettle of fish. It raises the emotional hackles. So maybe this time it will be different. Maybe.
Nah. Most of Labour's MPs are limp as wet celery. And they have mortgages to finance.
Their version of the party is dead, but they'll stay on and support the replacement so they can keep collecting their wages.
Ha ha- maybe. But the ones who might rebel are the ones who could do rather better, financially, outside parliament, and who therefore can afford to take a more financially detached position. Employable, in some circumstance or other, most of them. This isn't the likes of Jared O'Meara we're talking about.
The heart is more important than the head in this circumstance. Not that there aren't a lot of heart-reasons for staying put: humans will find all sorts of reasons not to change their minds. But the Corbynistas do seem to to be trying to test this theory to destruction.
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
For Venezuela add Mexico under Lopez Obrador now too
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
I am so sorry to hear of your loss and send you my condolence for you and the family at this sad time
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
Just to interject a note of cheer into this chorus of doom, today I went with my daughters to see the Bee statues in Manchester. Well they're wonderful. The whole city feels like an art gallery or a museum; people stop and chat with strangers while examining them, and best of all there are children in the city. I'm very fond of Manchester, but it can feel a very adult place which discourages chdilren - but here was a reason to show my children my city, and for them to enjoy it. Someone - can't remember who and can't be bothered to look it up - once said that the presence of children is an important indicator of the health of a city: if that is true - and I think there is something in it - Manchester just got a lot healthier.
I don't know how the bees stand up as art, and I don't really care. I'm not Brian Sewell, thank God. But they're very jolly and far more uplifting than any of the whingey shite in the Tate Modern.
They did something similar with owls in Birmingham a year or so back and they seemed very popular with a lot of parent+child footfall around them. They were only temporary tho', so I have no idea if it would hold up in the long term.
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
It isn't given how pivotal reducing immigration was to the Leave win
It’s a fantasy because it’s completely detached from the reality of what it entails. It’s politics by numbers.
It isn't as even May is technically leaving the single market and ending free movement in the Chequers Deal
'Technically'? So you admit that there won't be any meaningful change?
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Doesn't seem likely, but sometimes history moves quickly, and seemingly out of nowhere.
McDonnell has been drawn into it now on comments he has made and it does look like Corbyn's inner circle are facing a huge crisis of their own making
The crisis amounts to this: Labour cannot win Hendon and Barnet.
No, it is far more than that. It is about the revolutionaries facing up to each other and suddenly realising that actually comrade we have some fundamental differences here.
To be perfectly fair to the guy this can't plausibly be described as Jew-baiting. The law is a highly contentious measure brought forward by a government that has been heavily criticised over human rights issues on numerous previous occasions.
The timing could be regarded as a bit crackers under the circumstances, but then again it's hardly his fault that these events in Israel just happen to be going on now.
(EDIT: This is a comment on this specific issue and should not be taken as an endorsement of any of Mr Williamson's past idiocies)
The Israel lovers here have been very quite about this.
The Israel haters were also quiet - why didn't they post it earlier?
to make it clear from my point of view: there is much to dislike about the current Israeli regime atm. They're regressing from the path I'd like to see them on, and converging in a negative manner with some of the Palestinian factions - they're becoming more entrenched. This is not good for peace or the wider region. But that's no reason to allow anti-Semtism to fester.
To be perfectly fair to the guy this can't plausibly be described as Jew-baiting. The law is a highly contentious measure brought forward by a government that has been heavily criticised over human rights issues on numerous previous occasions.
The timing could be regarded as a bit crackers under the circumstances, but then again it's hardly his fault that these events in Israel just happen to be going on now.
Oh, for FFS, honestly, do you really think Williamson would be tweeting this on any other evening?
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
It isn't given how pivotal reducing immigration was to the Leave win
It’s a fantasy because it’s completely detached from the reality of what it entails. It’s politics by numbers.
It isn't as even May is technically leaving the single market and ending free movement in the Chequers Deal
'Technically'? So you admit that there won't be any meaningful change?
Under Chequers apart from replacing free movement with 'a mobility framework' not really, certainly not in terms of goods regulations and quite possibly ultimately in most services regulations too
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
Sorry to hear that. Condolences Mr JJ.
Thanks too you and Mr G. It was both expected - he had been ill for a while - and unexpected - he was much better. But he was a great guy and (gulp) only nineteen years older than me. Most of my uncles and aunts were much older than me - as a child he almost felt like he was my generation.
It just shows that with all the wondrous medical advances over the last few decades, we've got a long way to go.
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
It isn't given how pivotal reducing immigration was to the Leave win
It’s a fantasy because it’s completely detached from the reality of what it entails. It’s politics by numbers.
It isn't as even May is technically leaving the single market and ending free movement in the Chequers Deal
'Technically'? So you admit that there won't be any meaningful change?
Under Chequers apart from replacing free movement with 'a mobility framework' not really, certainly not in terms of goods regulations and quite possibly ultimately in most services regulations too
So when you say "after a few years of bringing immigration down", this will have nothing to do with our deal with the EU?
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
Sorry to hear that. Condolences Mr JJ.
Thanks too you and Mr G. It was both expected - he had been ill for a while - and unexpected - he was much better. But he was a great guy and (gulp) only nineteen years older than me. Most of my uncles and aunts were much older than me - as a child he almost felt like he was my generation.
It just shows that with all the wondrous medical advances over the last few decades, we've got a long way to go.
My condolences also.
As you say, modern medicine can do wonders, but we are all of us still vulnerable to rotten luck.
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Politics has been accelerating since 2010. God knows where we'll end up. It could be anything from a Corbynite Venezuela-style paradise to a JRM-style theocracy.
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
Sorry to hear that. Condolences Mr JJ.
Thanks too you and Mr G. It was both expected - he had been ill for a while - and unexpected - he was much better. But he was a great guy and (gulp) only nineteen years older than me. Most of my uncles and aunts were much older than me - as a child he almost felt like he was my generation.
It just shows that with all the wondrous medical advances over the last few decades, we've got a long way to go.
The Israel lovers here have been very quiet about this.
Aren't the people demonstrating, um, Israelis??
As is their right. But are they actually saying the word 'apartheid'?
I'm sure surby is being more than a little quiet about such nations as Iran and Pakistan defining themselves as "Islamic" Republics?
I am totally against the "Islamic" republics of Pakistan, Iran or wherever. I am the biggest critic of Saudi Arabia and its beheadings. But I do not see too many criticisms of Saudi Arabia here because they buy our arms ! PB contributors can be hypocritical too.
I also do not read Sunil criticising Cow vigilantes in India killing people allegedly eating beef !
If labour mps grasp this moment and resign the whip and become a remain party adopting the peoples vote anything could happen
Doesn't seem likely, but sometimes history moves quickly, and seemingly out of nowhere.
McDonnell has been drawn into it now on comments he has made and it does look like Corbyn's inner circle are facing a huge crisis of their own making
The crisis amounts to this: Labour cannot win Hendon and Barnet.
No, it is far more than that. It is about the revolutionaries facing up to each other and suddenly realising that actually comrade we have some fundamental differences here.
You mean a f*t slob has looked away from his dinner plate!
The Israel lovers here have been very quiet about this.
Aren't the people demonstrating, um, Israelis??
As is their right. But are they actually saying the word 'apartheid'?
I'm sure surby is being more than a little quiet about such nations as Iran and Pakistan defining themselves as "Islamic" Republics?
I am totally against the "Islamic" republics of Pakistan, Iran or wherever. I am the biggest critic of Saudi Arabia and its beheadings. But I do not see too many criticisms of Saudi Arabia here because they buy our arms ! PB contributors can be hypocritical too.
I also do not read Sunil criticising Cow vigilantes in India killing people allegedly eating beef !
I can see Labour is not winning Barnet ! Labour will also do better in Scotland than simple swings suggest. The SNP will be lucky to hold on to 35 seats.
The Israel lovers here have been very quiet about this.
Aren't the people demonstrating, um, Israelis??
As is their right. But are they actually saying the word 'apartheid'?
I'm sure surby is being more than a little quiet about such nations as Iran and Pakistan defining themselves as "Islamic" Republics?
I am totally against the "Islamic" republics of Pakistan, Iran or wherever. I am the biggest critic of Saudi Arabia and its beheadings. But I do not see too many criticisms of Saudi Arabia here because they buy our arms ! PB contributors can be hypocritical too.
I also do not read Sunil criticising Cow vigilantes in India killing people allegedly eating beef !
I am a vegetarian, not a Hindu. Thanks!
So you do not criticise Cow vigilantes. Thanks for clearing that up.
Not my view. I am in favour of participating in things that are in our interest. The point is we are not willing to take a significant cut in our prosperity and mess with the way we do things. Hence No Deal is off the table. Hence we either participate in the EU or we do what we are told. I assume Leavers will take do as we told over participation. Whatever, that's always been the choice.
This has been the main difference between us underpinning our predictions about how things will play out from the beginning. My view is that when faced with the real choice, too many Leavers will choose EU membership for the continuation of the project to be tenable.
Boris is still the prime candidate for a public proclamation that Brexit isn't worth it.
With a gun to their head most Leavers would choose just staying in the single market over the full EU which is where we will likely end up after a few years of bringing immigration down but for the moment the vast majority of Leave voters polled back No Deal
This idea of “a few years outside the single market” is pure fantasy.
It isn't given how pivotal reducing immigration was to the Leave win
It’s a fantasy because it’s completely detached from the reality of what it entails. It’s politics by numbers.
It isn't as even May is technically leaving the single market and ending free movement in the Chequers Deal
'Technically'? So you admit that there won't be any meaningful change?
Under Chequers apart from replacing free movement with 'a mobility framework' not really, certainly not in terms of goods regulations and quite possibly ultimately in most services regulations too
So when you say "after a few years of bringing immigration down", this will have nothing to do with our deal with the EU?
No as even the mobility framework will still not be free movement, let alone no deal
The Israel lovers here have been very quiet about this.
Aren't the people demonstrating, um, Israelis??
As is their right. But are they actually saying the word 'apartheid'?
I'm sure surby is being more than a little quiet about such nations as Iran and Pakistan defining themselves as "Islamic" Republics?
I am totally against the "Islamic" republics of Pakistan, Iran or wherever. I am the biggest critic of Saudi Arabia and its beheadings. But I do not see too many criticisms of Saudi Arabia here because they buy our arms ! PB contributors can be hypocritical too.
I also do not read Sunil criticising Cow vigilantes in India killing people allegedly eating beef !
I am a vegetarian, not a Hindu. Thanks!
So you do not criticise Cow vigilantes. Thanks for clearing that up.
I do criticise them, as I am against violence in all forms, because, as you know, I am a vegetarian. Now stop criticising Israel, when for decades Iran and Pakistan have defined themselves as Islamic Republics.
There's that newsreel clip at Partition showing a signpost with a sign pointing one way saying "Republic of India" and in the opposite direction saying "Islamic Republic of Pakistan."
I wonder why the anti-Semitic back history of Corbyn appears to be sticking whilst his in many ways worse support and promotion of the IRA hasn't so far.
No as even the mobility framework will still not be free movement, let alone no deal
There is no "mobility framework", it doesn't exist. It's just a name, that's all. You shouldn't go around believing that things exist just because they have a name.
Comments
Wishful thinking? Or first fall of the dominoes?
I don't know how the bees stand up as art, and I don't really care. I'm not Brian Sewell, thank God. But they're very jolly and far more uplifting than any of the whingey shite in the Tate Modern.
I expect a new centrist party here would get a similar score without much difficulty and would merge with the LDs.
Arguably without the SDP there would have been no New Labour a decade later
If enough of them went en bloc to replace Labour outright as the Parliamentary Opposition then they might stand a chance of success, but the risk of the left-wing vote splitting evenly and wiping both sides out in an election is too great for them.
They'll just sit on their hands and hope that something turns up. Which it most likely won't. The Far Left doesn't even need to bother with deselecting such cowed individuals, it can just wait until they find other jobs or retire and then select pliant Momentum activists or ex-SWP entryists to fill their seats.
So, events have basically revealed them to be useless careerists. They all deserve to be deselected.
https://twitter.com/dpjhodges/status/755687730739286016?s=21
As I said above, you've lost the plot.
They grumpily put up with Corbyn-onomics, because a lot of Labour MPs started out a long way to the left economically. They're not that way now, but they don't have the emotional antipathy to it that we might expect because many of them were there once. The head fights it, but the heart doesn't. But the anti-semitism stuff is a different kettle of fish. It raises the emotional hackles. So maybe this time it will be different. Maybe.
The morning thread contains an extensive discussion about the Alternative Vote system.
On the other hand, she's gone slightly up in my estimation for speaking out against Corbyn and his cult.
Their version of the party is dead, but they'll stay on and support the replacement so they can keep collecting their wages.
It wasn’t going to lead to a govt falling.
The odd thing is that I actually quite like that: I don't particularly like the whipping system, and like independently-minded MPs. But Corbyn goes too far.
No2AV = 68%
Yes2AV = 32%
Just sayin'
This is bad...
In other news: apology for the sweariness earlier. I've just learnt a loved uncle has died, and I'm slightly pi**ed in more ways than one.
The heart is more important than the head in this circumstance. Not that there aren't a lot of heart-reasons for staying put: humans will find all sorts of reasons not to change their minds. But the Corbynistas do seem to to be trying to test this theory to destruction.
https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1025843253436997634
https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1025839873750650880
(I could be wrong)
https://twitter.com/soul199570/status/1025846652651954180
Sure labours crisis will be going on tomorrow and for a while yet
Good night
The timing could be regarded as a bit crackers under the circumstances, but then again it's hardly his fault that these events in Israel just happen to be going on now.
(EDIT: This is a comment on this specific issue and should not be taken as an endorsement of any of Mr Williamson's past idiocies)
to make it clear from my point of view: there is much to dislike about the current Israeli regime atm. They're regressing from the path I'd like to see them on, and converging in a negative manner with some of the Palestinian factions - they're becoming more entrenched. This is not good for peace or the wider region. But that's no reason to allow anti-Semtism to fester.
It just shows that with all the wondrous medical advances over the last few decades, we've got a long way to go.
As you say, modern medicine can do wonders, but we are all of us still vulnerable to rotten luck.
Best wishes. It sounds like you've got fond memories, and that's a very valuable thing indeed.
I also do not read Sunil criticising Cow vigilantes in India killing people allegedly eating beef !
Lab 286
Con 282
LD 16
SNP 44
PC 3
Green 1
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
There's that newsreel clip at Partition showing a signpost with a sign pointing one way saying "Republic of India" and in the opposite direction saying "Islamic Republic of Pakistan."