Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Amazingly TMay makes it to the long summer recess and she’s st

2

Comments

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427
    Emotive language used in this report:

    Excluded pupils 'abandoned by schools' in England
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44941691

    I notice however that while full of concern for those who due to their own efforts get kicked out (belatedly, in my experience) they don't make any mention of the potential negative impact on other children of keeping them in school.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>

    Good analysis. The provisions of the fixed term Parliament Act make an early General Election very very difficult and the chances are that the Tories will hang on until 2022 which is an awful long way off. The political world could change dramatically in the ensuing.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427

    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>

    Good analysis. The provisions of the fixed term Parliament Act make an early General Election very very difficult and the chances are that the Tories will hang on until 2022 which is an awful long way off. The political world could change dramatically in the ensuing.
    Corbyn will be 73 in 2022. Cable would be approaching 80. If the election is really that date, surely we will see new leaders for all parties? (I'm assuming May will be ditched by next summer at the latest, even with her limpet like qualities.)
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,672

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    I’ve just got back from a 2.5 week holiday in Canada with my wife and we really got into that after we met a couple of Mounties briefly. I vaguely remembered it from the 90s. Great show.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    ydoethur said:

    King Cole, must've taken some foresight to pick the only day in two months when substantial rainfall is expected for a charity cricket match... hope you're spared the sogginess, for a while.

    It’s been planned for a long while! Might, of course, have to hide in the beer tent. Ah, calamity!
    So at least if it's wet, you won't have to stay dry?

    (Hope it doesn't rain. In my experience the last few weeks every time they've forecast rain, sometimes even when it's put on the radar screen at the time it's happening, it's been dry.)
    Both the BBC and Accuweather give a good chance of rain, sadly. However the latter gives it as most likely before the game starts and there’s an excellent, although largely amateur ground staff.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    To be filed alongside “world trade deal”.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,011
    Mr. Doethur, at school, the teachers had a brilliant idea of pairing up hard-working and lazier pupils as they thought the good habits might rub off on the bad ones.

    Well, you can imagine how that worked out.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    ydoethur said:

    Emotive language used in this report:

    Excluded pupils 'abandoned by schools' in England
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44941691

    I notice however that while full of concern for those who due to their own efforts get kicked out (belatedly, in my experience) they don't make any mention of the potential negative impact on other children of keeping them in school.

    One of my grandchildren was a TA for a while in an exclusion unit. He had some quite horrific stories, although he always tried to be positive about the children.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, can I point out that at the end of last year when I predicted that all the party leaders would remain in position for 2018 I received a lot of comments about how timid a prediction that was?
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited July 2018
    ydoethur said:

    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>

    Good analysis. The provisions of the fixed term Parliament Act make an early General Election very very difficult and the chances are that the Tories will hang on until 2022 which is an awful long way off. The political world could change dramatically in the ensuing.
    Corbyn will be 73 in 2022. Cable would be approaching 80. If the election is really that date, surely we will see new leaders for all parties? (I'm assuming May will be ditched by next summer at the latest, even with her limpet like qualities.)
    Just how are the Tories going to ditch her? The figure that we should be looking at is not just the 48 letters going into the chairman of the 1922 committee asking for a confidence motion but 155 the required total, if all MPs vote, for that confidence motion to go against her. Situation only gets dangerous for Mrs May if her successor becomes obvious because of wide support within the parliamentary party. That simply does not exist at the moment
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>

    Has the tactic of coordinated resignations ever worked?

    But how strong is the parallel with Gordon Brown? In style, perhaps, but was there a real policy difference between Brown and the Blairites? Certainly nothing on the scale of the Brexit chasm.

    Brexit is remarkable: perhaps unparalleled in British history. The government has no fixed policy: it changes each week. The Cabinet is split. The ERG has no agreed policy, except it does not like where it thinks the government is heading. And that's betting without hardcore remainers. The only agreed point is that, handled wrongly, Brexit poses the biggest threat to our economy since the war -- possibly the Civil War.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    ydoethur said:

    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>

    Good analysis. The provisions of the fixed term Parliament Act make an early General Election very very difficult and the chances are that the Tories will hang on until 2022 which is an awful long way off. The political world could change dramatically in the ensuing.
    Corbyn will be 73 in 2022. Cable would be approaching 80. If the election is really that date, surely we will see new leaders for all parties? (I'm assuming May will be ditched by next summer at the latest, even with her limpet like qualities.)
    Just how are the Tories going to ditch her? The figure that we should be looking at is not just the 48 letters going into the chairman of the 1922 committee asking for a confidence motion but 155 the required total, if all MPs vote, for that confidence motion to go against her. Situation only gets dangerous for Mrs May if her successor becomes obvious because of wide support within the parliamentary party. That simply does not exist at the moment
    Theresa May would surely lose any vote of no confidence. The only thing that unites the Conservative Party is contempt for the prime minister. Your point about the lack of an obvious successor is why no-one dares trigger a vote of no confidence: the wrong faction might get in and be set for the next decade. But if they did, May would lose. If Theresa May thought for a minute she'd win, she'd follow John Major and call one herself.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427
    edited July 2018

    ydoethur said:

    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>

    Good analysis. The provisions of the fixed term Parliament Act make an early General Election very very difficult and the chances are that the Tories will hang on until 2022 which is an awful long way off. The political world could change dramatically in the ensuing.
    Corbyn will be 73 in 2022. Cable would be approaching 80. If the election is really that date, surely we will see new leaders for all parties? (I'm assuming May will be ditched by next summer at the latest, even with her limpet like qualities.)
    Just how are the Tories going to ditch her? The figure that we should be looking at is not just the 48 letters going into the chairman of the 1922 committee asking for a confidence motion but 155 the required total, if all MPs vote, for that confidence motion to go against her. Situation only gets dangerous for Mrs May if her successor becomes obvious because of wide support within the parliamentary party. That simply does not exist at the moment
    I think once negotiations are over - one way or another - the PCP will be looking to move on, and therefore enough would vote against her to either make the threshold or make her position untenable. I also don't think with Javid and Hunt both now available and Boris out of the running, the majority will be too concerned about the identity of her successor. Either would do for them.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427

    If Theresa May thought for a minute she'd win, she'd follow John Major and call one herself.

    She can't. The rules have changed.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830
    .
    ydoethur said:

    Emotive language used in this report:

    Excluded pupils 'abandoned by schools' in England
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44941691

    I notice however that while full of concern for those who due to their own efforts get kicked out (belatedly, in my experience) they don't make any mention of the potential negative impact on other children of keeping them in school.

    And the rhetoric in that report gives scant attention to the lack of resources which lies at threat of the problem. The difficulty in getting EHCP funding for some of these kids is notorious, and many PRUs are running at capacity.

    Schools are left with a perverse choice between the welfare of the few and the many, which is particularly acute with children displaying extreme behaviour problems.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427
    Not even accurate, as Wales voted out. I know Carwyn Jones grumbles but he's out in two months anyway (looks like Drakeford will replace him).
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    I didn't know Raab was a fan of musical theatre
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    IanB2 said:

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    After a long hot summer the odds are certainly on a stormy autumn when we will all get drenched.

    Meanwhile the rain we should normally be getting appears to be in northern Spain and the south east Med
    Certainly not here in SE SPAIN - we're having a normal summer, hot, sunny and no rain. We have an average 320+ sunny days each year. Paradise !
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Emotive language used in this report:

    Excluded pupils 'abandoned by schools' in England
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44941691

    I notice however that while full of concern for those who due to their own efforts get kicked out (belatedly, in my experience) they don't make any mention of the potential negative impact on other children of keeping them in school.

    And the rhetoric in that report gives scant attention to the lack of resources which lies at threat of the problem. The difficulty in getting EHCP funding for some of these kids is notorious, and many PRUs are running at capacity.

    Schools are left with a perverse choice between the welfare of the few and the many, which is particularly acute with children displaying extreme behaviour problems.
    One teacher told me that such pupils were generally referred to as LFB's.

    The first initial stands for "Little" the last for "Bastards" and I'm sure you can guess what the middle initial stands for.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    To be filed alongside “world trade deal”.
    https://twitter.com/TheAndyMaturin/status/1021848759100223489
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    ydoethur said:

    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>

    Good analysis. The provisions of the fixed term Parliament Act make an early General Election very very difficult and the chances are that the Tories will hang on until 2022 which is an awful long way off. The political world could change dramatically in the ensuing.
    Corbyn will be 73 in 2022. Cable would be approaching 80. If the election is really that date, surely we will see new leaders for all parties? (I'm assuming May will be ditched by next summer at the latest, even with her limpet like qualities.)
    Just how are the Tories going to ditch her? The figure that we should be looking at is not just the 48 letters going into the chairman of the 1922 committee asking for a confidence motion but 155 the required total, if all MPs vote, for that confidence motion to go against her. Situation only gets dangerous for Mrs May if her successor becomes obvious because of wide support within the parliamentary party. That simply does not exist at the moment
    My reading is that once the question gets asked - she loses. It's just that not enough want to ask the question - yet.

    That changes if there is a real risk of an early election - the great majority of MPs will not countenance letting her front another election. The horror scenario for Tory MPs is a snap election without time to replace her.

    And it changes if something close to Chequers can't be delivered.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    ydoethur said:

    Not even accurate, as Wales voted out. I know Carwyn Jones grumbles but he's out in two months anyway (looks like Drakeford will replace him).
    You pick that out as the most noteworthy point?

    Me, I'm most interested in the blue highlighter. Clearly there is a tune to go with these lyrics, a choral society lined up to sing it and Nancy is being pencilled in for a solo - lucky Nancy.

    I'm unclear about the meaning of "Upminster?" My early thoughts is that it is a reference to the tube map and Thomasina is eight stops beyond Barking.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,834
    Its the difficult second album for these hipsters of 2 years ago:

    https://youtu.be/BBi-KXc0CRk
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    The Chequers motion has been amended and as expected, the EU isn't interested in it anyway. I'm not sure where it's going now.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr F,

    "The first initial stands for "Little" the last for "Bastards" and I'm sure you can guess what the middle initial stands for."

    Fat?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,834
    edited July 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    Allowing for the fact that the Type 45's engines don't work, and the RFA is being gutted again, how many RN surface vessels are actually going to be deployable?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2018
    ydoethur said:

    If Theresa May thought for a minute she'd win, she'd follow John Major and call one herself.

    She can't. The rules have changed.
    She can call a vote of no confidence. She simply asks MPs to submit letters with her blessing.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,474
    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    After a long hot summer the odds are certainly on a stormy autumn when we will all get drenched.

    Meanwhile the rain we should normally be getting appears to be in northern Spain and the south east Med
    Certainly not here in SE SPAIN - we're having a normal summer, hot, sunny and no rain. We have an average 320+ sunny days each year. Paradise !
    There are positive rain anomalies for last month in Galicia, northern Portugal and SW France
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,208
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Mr Banks may be in a little more trouble:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44939665

    That story doesn't show what the BBC think it does. They think it looks bad for Banks - and, I admit, it's not good - but really it's much worse for the African politician on the take.

    That's how things work in Africa. It's why it's the way it is.
    Payments to Ministers to secure contracts are not just an African thing:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/mark-thatcher-accused-sources-say-he-got-12m-pounds-from-arms-deal-signed-by-his-mother-1441851.html
    Oh, I don't disagree - that episode of Yes Minister deals with the Middle East.

    When it comes to family members benefiting from government deals, I'd add Cherie Blair and the Human Rights Act.

    But in Africa, corruption is endemic. It is the way things are done there.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427

    ydoethur said:

    Not even accurate, as Wales voted out. I know Carwyn Jones grumbles but he's out in two months anyway (looks like Drakeford will replace him).
    You pick that out as the most noteworthy point?

    Me, I'm most interested in the blue highlighter. Clearly there is a tune to go with these lyrics, a choral society lined up to sing it and Nancy is being pencilled in for a solo - lucky Nancy.

    I'm unclear about the meaning of "Upminster?" My early thoughts is that it is a reference to the tube map and Thomasina is eight stops beyond Barking.
    I'm a Welshman. Having you metropolitan types misrepresent us always gets my hackles up! :smiley:

    Roll - does it mean a stockpiling of toilet roll?

    Can't think what tune it would be set to. I've tried all the usual suspects and the metre simply doesn't work. The British Grenadiers comes closest but even so you have to do some fancy footwork in the middle lines and repeat the chorus.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    Scott_P said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    To be filed alongside “world trade deal”.
    https://twitter.com/TheAndyMaturin/status/1021848759100223489
    Or you have the money and space to be able to do so.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427
    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,942

    ydoethur said:

    If Theresa May thought for a minute she'd win, she'd follow John Major and call one herself.

    She can't. The rules have changed.
    She can call a vote of no confidence. She simply asks MPs to submit letters with her blessing.
    She’s have to be awfully confident to go down that route, as once letter 48 is delivered the process is completely out of her control. If she resigns or loses a VoNC she can’t stand in the resultant contest.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,672
    SeanT said:

    valleyboy said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    So, unless I blinked, BBC News at 10 did not mention the 'adequate food' stockpiling that Raab revealed.

    WTF?

    Perhaps most people are more level-headed than we are?
    Most people, perhaps (at least in not overreacting to politics), but the media?
    Newsnight leading on it.

    Britain will be entering silly season headless chicken mode shortly.
    The threat of food shortages could be a game changer. Particularly if the Mail and Sun run with it(perversely ).People will take note.
    This was my theory earlier today. The consensus was the weather is too nice, everyone is drunk or on holiday, no one will care, it will be laughed off.

    People are literally more worried about the pub running out of ice (I mean literally: I just went into Camden Marks and Sparks for a bag of ice and they said they hadn't had any for days, everyone was asking, please try tomorrow)

    It's not going to register. Not now. The story has come at the wrong time for Remainers.
    SeanT said:

    SeanT: You linked to a Pillastro on the last thread. Not sure if you saw this:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/0307816

    I didn't, interesting.

    I think south Italy is making some incredible reds right now. The San Marzano 62 I linked to earlier has been number 1 on the *best wines from £20-£40 on sale in Britain* bracket, on Vivino, for months.

    Vivino is right.
    I had an absolutely superb British Columbia Pinot noir whilst out in Calgary. One of the best I’ve even tasted.

    God knows how difficult it is to obtain here, though.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    ydoethur said:

    Not even accurate, as Wales voted out. I know Carwyn Jones grumbles but he's out in two months anyway (looks like Drakeford will replace him).
    You pick that out as the most noteworthy point?

    Me, I'm most interested in the blue highlighter. Clearly there is a tune to go with these lyrics, a choral society lined up to sing it and Nancy is being pencilled in for a solo - lucky Nancy.

    I'm unclear about the meaning of "Upminster?" My early thoughts is that it is a reference to the tube map and Thomasina is eight stops beyond Barking.
    Twitter is saying that Upminster is a psalm tune, which would make sense.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    To be filed alongside “world trade deal”.
    https://twitter.com/TheAndyMaturin/status/1021848759100223489
    Or you have the money and space to be able to do so.

    Porsches have lousy boot space for post apocalyptic looting. Their strength as a getaway vehicle will be diminished hundreds of burnt out Nespresso machines littering the road.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054

    May's great strength is that although there are dozen of Conservative MPs who would like to replace her there are probably none who would like to inherit the present issues that the job involves dealing with.

    I suspect there is one person who believes he has the Chuchillian drive to do it. I'm just not sure that his colleagues trust him or think the situation is bad enough yet.
    I don't think he does think that, or he'd publicly say he's put in hia letter and urge others to do the same.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,672
    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    I’m not sure either party can be trusted on defence.

    The Tories were good on defence in the early 1980s, investing properly, but have not impressed since the end of the Cold War.

    Labour did a good job with the 1998 sdr and then comprehensively failed to fund it properly whilst making salami slices and adding new commitments all the way to 2010.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
    Whatever you want and bring a brolly?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    Ps

    Bring your friend, cold air , with you as well. I'm sorry we said he was a jerk.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXnfhnCoOyo
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
    Something cool and bring an umbrella.

    What are you seeing?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,672
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427

    ydoethur said:

    Not even accurate, as Wales voted out. I know Carwyn Jones grumbles but he's out in two months anyway (looks like Drakeford will replace him).
    You pick that out as the most noteworthy point?

    Me, I'm most interested in the blue highlighter. Clearly there is a tune to go with these lyrics, a choral society lined up to sing it and Nancy is being pencilled in for a solo - lucky Nancy.

    I'm unclear about the meaning of "Upminster?" My early thoughts is that it is a reference to the tube map and Thomasina is eight stops beyond Barking.
    Twitter is saying that Upminster is a psalm tune, which would make sense.
    Well, I've found it, after a lot of research, and it fits the words with some slurring, but it's a very obscure tune and a quick study of it reveals why. It's not in any of my hymn books, including the nineteenth century ones, and I'm at a loss to know how anyone could have found it.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AMMox_zbTiQC&pg=PP26&lpg=PP26&dq=upminster+hymn+tune&source=bl&ots=s_PBDVW9_E&sig=f5Gt1ql8x2azJlvEWb2gnwB0-bE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWycXI2rncAhWKJsAKHad8A9wQ6AEwDHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=upminster hymn tune&f=false

    (Third hit.)
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,834
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    To be filed alongside “world trade deal”.
    https://twitter.com/TheAndyMaturin/status/1021848759100223489
    Or you have the money and space to be able to do so.

    Porsches have lousy boot space for post apocalyptic looting. Their strength as a getaway vehicle will be diminished hundreds of burnt out Nespresso machines littering the road.
    While planning for post Brexit Britain, I think one needs to consider certain contingencies. Perhaps a V8 Interceptor would be car of choice:

    https://youtu.be/k3E6uWoNPVo
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054

    Who else is there? The alternatives are not obvious improvements.

    Better question is, who else would want it now anyway ?
    All of them. Better to get the job when you can than wait for the perfect moment that might never come.
    That's why I don't believe they do want it, or are actually that opposed to the plan - the ones who claim to want a deal at least, since that requires more than just obstructing things - or they woukd have acted by now.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,011
    Mr. Royale, indeed.

    Miss Cyclefree, there's a philosophical question. What's the worse type of political fringe lunatic: someone who knows what they're doing, or someone who doesn't?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    You're generous. You only went on his record on political violence. But that and anything else is separate from the fact he is undoubtedly able.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,798
    edited July 2018
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    Not sure whether we should be more worried that the government has stockpiling food as a Brexit policy or that it's not doing it.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    Foxy said:

    Its the difficult second album for these hipsters of 2 years ago:

    https://youtu.be/BBi-KXc0CRk
    The interesting line is that ‘we only wanted trade’. Did they vote for the EEA?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427
    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    Not sure whether we should be more worried that the government has stockpiling food as a Brexit policy or that it's not doing it.
    Theresa May's government - the political equivalent of social workers.

    Discuss.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    If Theresa May thought for a minute she'd win, she'd follow John Major and call one herself.

    She can't. The rules have changed.
    She can call a vote of no confidence. She simply asks MPs to submit letters with her blessing.
    She’s have to be awfully confident to go down that route, as once letter 48 is delivered the process is completely out of her control. If she resigns or loses a VoNC she can’t stand in the resultant contest.
    Not a question of confidence. Hell, she'd probably lose. But it would force the party to make a choice about what it wants to do, and either unite behind her or her successor, or just split already. At least the never ending sniping and plotting would be done.

    It is sad and pathetic that people keep saying how dreadful and undemocratic her plan is, yet they won't stop her. Probably as they think the EU will, but if they believe what they say they should act. Or she should.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054

    Mr. Royale, indeed.

    Miss Cyclefree, there's a philosophical question. What's the worse type of political fringe lunatic: someone who knows what they're doing, or someone who doesn't?

    Depends on what the consequences of their actions are.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    I didn’t say I loved him. I said I preferred him to Corbyn. The bar is not high. I want neither of them in power.

    But, frankly, we’re not facing a great choice, are we? The political equivalent of choosing between having a nest of rats or wasps lodging in your house. Both will cause expensive damage and have a nasty bite, in different ways. Neither are welcome.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    I didn’t say I loved him. I said I preferred him to Corbyn. The bar is not high. I want neither of them in power.

    But, frankly, we’re not facing a great choice, are we? The political equivalent of choosing between having a nest of rats or wasps lodging in your house. Both will cause expensive damage and have a nasty bite, in different ways. Neither are welcome.
    Aren’t we there already?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Food shortage stories favour the Leavers IMO. People don't like to be pushed around and it somewhat supports the view that we will were not sovereign.

    Actual food shortages is a different matter entirely.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    You are far too charitable in your assessment of the man.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,037
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    Allowing for the fact that the Type 45's engines don't work, and the RFA is being gutted again, how many RN surface vessels are actually going to be deployable?
    Well warships typically spend a significant proportion of their lives in refit so we'd definitely be down to single figures.

    If you looked at what the tories actually do instead of what they say you could come to no other conclusion than that they absolutely despise the armed forces of the United Kingdom.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    That hymn would be hilarious if it didn’t speak to a deep vein of psychosis at the heart of Brexit.

    Keeps talking about Britain then notes that “we” need to overpower the naysayers in Scotland, Wales and Ulster.

    Talks of closing borders than goes to to claim that trade is the thing.

    Paradox paradise.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,834
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    Allowing for the fact that the Type 45's engines don't work, and the RFA is being gutted again, how many RN surface vessels are actually going to be deployable?
    Well warships typically spend a significant proportion of their lives in refit so we'd definitely be down to single figures.

    If you looked at what the tories actually do instead of what they say you could come to no other conclusion than that they absolutely despise the armed forces of the United Kingdom.
    How many vessels are needed for a carrier escort group? Would it effectively be the whole fleet?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,851
    edited July 2018
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    If Theresa May thought for a minute she'd win, she'd follow John Major and call one herself.

    She can't. The rules have changed.
    She can call a vote of no confidence. She simply asks MPs to submit letters with her blessing.
    She’s have to be awfully confident to go down that route, as once letter 48 is delivered the process is completely out of her control. If she resigns or loses a VoNC she can’t stand in the resultant contest.
    Not a question of confidence. Hell, she'd probably lose. But it would force the party to make a choice about what it wants to do, and either unite behind her or her successor, or just split already. At least the never ending sniping and plotting would be done.

    It is sad and pathetic that people keep saying how dreadful and undemocratic her plan is, yet they won't stop her. Probably as they think the EU will, but if they believe what they say they should act. Or she should.
    How ironic, the 'Take Back Control' brigade are hoping the EU will stop May's plan.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227

    Mr. Royale, indeed.

    Miss Cyclefree, there's a philosophical question. What's the worse type of political fringe lunatic: someone who knows what they're doing, or someone who doesn't?

    Both are equally bad in different ways. The former is a Pol Pot. The latter: JRM?

    I am a bit sceptical that fringe lunatics don’t know what they are doing. They may be incompetent but they usually have an idea. It’s just that their idea is rubbish and/or even if the general idea is a good one they have no clue how to get there and/or lack the flexibility to adapt.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jonathan said:

    Food shortage stories favour the Leavers IMO. People don't like to be pushed around and it somewhat supports the view that we will were not sovereign.

    Actual food shortages is a different matter entirely.

    Brexiteers said food would be cheaper after Brexit. Now the same people are saying we hope not to run out.

    Only massively stupid people will thank them for that.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    edited July 2018
    the Venezuela option and the food stockpiling option lead to same place: abject misery for the country.

    Corbyn, McDonnell, May and Johnson - none of them deserve a vote.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,142
    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    You would have loved PB back in 2008 and 2009.

    Every day you would read about how Labour had broken the 'military covenant' and promises to never vote Conservative again if the next government cut Britain's defences.

    There was a distinct drop in concern about such issues after May 2010.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,942
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    To be filed alongside “world trade deal”.
    https://twitter.com/TheAndyMaturin/status/1021848759100223489
    Or you have the money and space to be able to do so.

    Porsches have lousy boot space for post apocalyptic looting. Their strength as a getaway vehicle will be diminished hundreds of burnt out Nespresso machines littering the road.
    Proper Porsches have the “boot” at the wrong end. Engine at the back, storage at the front. ;)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    ydoethur said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    I did a walk in Northamptonshire on Sunday, and encountered some light drizzle as I climbed up to the top of Honey Hill. I stretched out my arms and let the drops hit my face.

    It was a marvellous 22 mile stroll on a very warm day (actually 24, because *ahem* I went wrong in a couple of places). But best of all was the drizzle - and it's not often I say that!

    Back in May when Severn Trent reservoirs were at 96% capacity I foolishly said there would be no hosepipe ban this summer. Even then, I had a vaguely uneasy feeling that I could be inviting drought. Now I know. This is all my fault!!
    I have mentioned that prediction to you on a couple of occasions. ;)
    As recently as the start of June, reservoir levels under Severn Trent were at 91% of capacity. It should also be noted that they have only one major reservoir chain - the Derwent - below 60% at the moment. By contrast Thirlmere is down to 48% (I'm guessing those fires had something to do with that). Annoyingly I can't find the details for Blithefield, but the Clywedog reservoir (our other major source of water) is still at 85%.

    So it's not certain the Midlands will have a hosepipe ban, or even especially likely. A dry autumn and it might be a different story next year.
    Bah. why let 'facts' get in the way of a gentle ribbing? ;)
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427
    Scott_P said:
    Reminds me of the famous time George W. Bush said he stood for 'anti-racism and Anti-Semitism.'
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,037
    edited July 2018
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    Allowing for the fact that the Type 45's engines don't work, and the RFA is being gutted again, how many RN surface vessels are actually going to be deployable?
    Well warships typically spend a significant proportion of their lives in refit so we'd definitely be down to single figures.

    If you looked at what the tories actually do instead of what they say you could come to no other conclusion than that they absolutely despise the armed forces of the United Kingdom.
    How many vessels are needed for a carrier escort group? Would it effectively be the whole fleet?
    A US CSG is (at the very least, it's usually more) the carrier, a Tico guided missile destroyer, a destroyer squadron of two Arleigh Burkes, two hunter/killer subs and a tanker/replenishment vessel so at least 7. A UK only CSG outside a multi-national coalition would be almost impossible but it would probably be 1 x QEC, 1 x T45 (power plant permitting) , 1 x T23/T26 and 1 Wave class or Solid Support. However, in effort to deliver best value for the tax payer only one of the Solid Support ship is going be equipped for "heavy" replenishment (ie bombs and aircraft engines) so if that particular vessel is inconveniently unavailable the job's fucked.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    I didn’t say I loved him. I said I preferred him to Corbyn. The bar is not high. I want neither of them in power.

    But, frankly, we’re not facing a great choice, are we? The political equivalent of choosing between having a nest of rats or wasps lodging in your house. Both will cause expensive damage and have a nasty bite, in different ways. Neither are welcome.
    I thought that the rats were busy planning their emigration to Canada
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,436
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    I didn’t say I loved him. I said I preferred him to Corbyn. The bar is not high. I want neither of them in power.

    But, frankly, we’re not facing a great choice, are we? The political equivalent of choosing between having a nest of rats or wasps lodging in your house. Both will cause expensive damage and have a nasty bite, in different ways. Neither are welcome.
    John Woodcock is working on the problem!
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,672
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    You're generous. You only went on his record on political violence. But that and anything else is separate from the fact he is undoubtedly able.
    Why shouldn’t that be a dealbreaker? There have been many able men throughout history advocating such solutions who’ve - consequently - been extremely dangerous.
  • Options
    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    Honestly , food shortages???? What utter nonsense.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    He would be the one signing the gulag orders while he kept Jezza in his playroom reading another critique of Capitalism.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    You're generous. You only went on his record on political violence. But that and anything else is separate from the fact he is undoubtedly able.
    Why shouldn’t that be a dealbreaker? There have been many able men throughout history advocating such solutions who’ve - consequently - been extremely dangerous.
    Who said it isn't a deal breaker ?
    I think people were merely remarking he's all the more dangerous as he's smart.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Very sad events in Greece.

    Interesting interview with John McDonnell on Radio 4 where he didn’t really deny very effectively that Labour’s economic programme was a British version of Trump’s America First.

    And this is quite interesting on Corbyn’s approach - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/jeremy-corbyns-obsession-with-antizionism-is-poisoning-labour-srj2wgvlk. McDonnell sounded embarrassed by it all.

    Despite myself and despite not trusting him an iota, I find myself preferring McDonnell to Corbyn. At least you know you are dealing with the political equivalent of one of those corrupt 1970’s Met detectives. Whereas Corbyn’s unjustified self-righteousness grates.

    McDonnell is at least highly intelligent.

    In a sense though that makes him more culpable for the rubbish he spouts. We can't say as we do with Corbyn or Pidcock or Rayner that it's because he doesn't have a clue what he's saying.
    True. I don’t trust him but there’s a shrewdness there.
    Count me out of the McDonnell love in.

    The man barely attempts to camouflage his admiration of political violence, which he is happy to dogwhistle for too. I think he’s filth.
    You are far too charitable in your assessment of the man.
    Would be interesting to see how the media went after McDonnell if he looked like getting close to power.....

    His Little Red Book stunt will come back to haunt him too.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,208
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    Reminds me of the famous time George W. Bush said he stood for 'anti-racism and Anti-Semitism.'
    Jeremy in Peep Show's response to Mark saying he's a "paedophobe" - "paedo, phobe, they're both bad..."
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,427

    ydoethur said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    I did a walk in Northamptonshire on Sunday, and encountered some light drizzle as I climbed up to the top of Honey Hill. I stretched out my arms and let the drops hit my face.

    It was a marvellous 22 mile stroll on a very warm day (actually 24, because *ahem* I went wrong in a couple of places). But best of all was the drizzle - and it's not often I say that!

    Back in May when Severn Trent reservoirs were at 96% capacity I foolishly said there would be no hosepipe ban this summer. Even then, I had a vaguely uneasy feeling that I could be inviting drought. Now I know. This is all my fault!!
    I have mentioned that prediction to you on a couple of occasions. ;)
    As recently as the start of June, reservoir levels under Severn Trent were at 91% of capacity. It should also be noted that they have only one major reservoir chain - the Derwent - below 60% at the moment. By contrast Thirlmere is down to 48% (I'm guessing those fires had something to do with that). Annoyingly I can't find the details for Blithefield, but the Clywedog reservoir (our other major source of water) is still at 85%.

    So it's not certain the Midlands will have a hosepipe ban, or even especially likely. A dry autumn and it might be a different story next year.
    Bah. why let 'facts' get in the way of a gentle ribbing? ;)
    It is of course disturbing to realise reservoir levels have fallen by a quarter in just two months. Six months without rain and we would be in the same situation as Cape Town was earlier this year.

    But that is - hopefully - not likely to happen.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that calling the issue food security, as some media is doing, rather than food shortages might easily take the sting out of the situation.

    Not sure whether we should be more worried that the government has stockpiling food as a Brexit policy or that it's not doing it.
    Some with a tin ear on here last night were lauding the govt for saying there would be no food shortages while missing the point that the government has got us into a situation where they are talking about food shortages.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    If Theresa May thought for a minute she'd win, she'd follow John Major and call one herself.

    She can't. The rules have changed.
    She can call a vote of no confidence. She simply asks MPs to submit letters with her blessing.
    She’s have to be awfully confident to go down that route, as once letter 48 is delivered the process is completely out of her control. If she resigns or loses a VoNC she can’t stand in the resultant contest.
    Not a question of confidence. Hell, she'd probably lose. But it would force the party to make a choice about what it wants to do, and either unite behind her or her successor, or just split already. At least the never ending sniping and plotting would be done.

    It is sad and pathetic that people keep saying how dreadful and undemocratic her plan is, yet they won't stop her. Probably as they think the EU will, but if they believe what they say they should act. Or she should.
    How ironic, the 'Take Back Control' brigade are hoping the EU will stop May's plan.
    Trimble was positively dancing a jig this morning on the radio, describing how the EU would have no option but to put up a border and how simply awful that would be*.

    *not
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    Cyclefree said:

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
    Something cool and bring an umbrella.

    What are you seeing?
    As You Like It, I think. It's a treat (in return for a dinner at the Skylon, which I also recommend), so I'm not being told details.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    MTimT said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Tim_B said:

    dixiedean said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
    I may be going mad, but I seem to recall that @TimB posted on here an extraordinary story about the time he bought a second-hand car not long after migrating to the New World.

    And the former owner of the car turned out to be a retired but very senior Canadian politician.

    Would appreciate it if someone can confirm whether or not the heat has completely addled me!!
    Yes that is the case. It was a Cadillac previously owned by the leader of the socialist party in Canada. I am amazed that you remember that!

    It had an 8.2 liter engine and went like a scalded dog.
    Three legged dog, maybe! 500ci Caddy motors only make about 200hp when new...
    This conversation reminds me of the LA Speed Check story. For those of you who have never heard it, well worth the five minutes:

    https://twistedsifter.com/videos/an-sr-71-blackbird-pilot-recounts-his-infamous-la-speed-check-story/
    Excellent and well told.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,830
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    Allowing for the fact that the Type 45's engines don't work, and the RFA is being gutted again, how many RN surface vessels are actually going to be deployable?
    Well warships typically spend a significant proportion of their lives in refit so we'd definitely be down to single figures.

    If you looked at what the tories actually do instead of what they say you could come to no other conclusion than that they absolutely despise the armed forces of the United Kingdom.
    How many vessels are needed for a carrier escort group? Would it effectively be the whole fleet?
    A US CSG is (at the very least, it's usually more) the carrier, a Tico guided missile destroyer, a destroyer squadron of two Arleigh Burkes, two hunter/killer subs and a tanker/replenishment vessel so at least 7. A UK only CSG outside a multi-national coalition would be almost impossible but it would probably be 1 x QEC, 1 x T45 (power plant permitting) , 1 x T23/T26 and 1 Wave class or Solid Support. However, in effort to deliver best value for the tax payer only one of the Solid Support ship is going be equipped for "heavy" replenishment (ie bombs and aircraft engines) so if that particular vessel is inconveniently unavailable the job's fucked.
    The carriers seem to be a luxury the rest of the navy has been sacrificed for.

    If we really need them, would we have been better off rebuilding the rest of the fleet first and waiting until more funds were available (which would have had the added benefit of waiting to see if the F35 was ever going to be a reliable airframe for carrier operations before ordering it, and making an informed and less costly decision on what kind of catapult system to opt for...) ?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,142
    currystar said:

    Honestly , food shortages???? What utter nonsense.

    Talked about by the same people who expected that the crops would rot in the field in 2017 and then expected that the crops would rot in the field in 2018.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,881
    edited July 2018
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Emotive language used in this report:

    Excluded pupils 'abandoned by schools' in England
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44941691

    I notice however that while full of concern for those who due to their own efforts get kicked out (belatedly, in my experience) they don't make any mention of the potential negative impact on other children of keeping them in school.

    And the rhetoric in that report gives scant attention to the lack of resources which lies at threat of the problem. The difficulty in getting EHCP funding for some of these kids is notorious, and many PRUs are running at capacity.

    Schools are left with a perverse choice between the welfare of the few and the many, which is particularly acute with children displaying extreme behaviour problems.
    Very true - Mrs Capitano has been going through exactly that over the last year, not helped by a pair of particularly truculent parents who (as is not particularly unusual with troubled kids) have not been ready to accept that there can be anything wrong with the kid.

    For the Children's Commissioner to glibly dismiss this as "some schools are seeking to improve their overall exam results by removing some of their most vulnerable children from the school roll" is a spectacular exercise in missing the point. By and large, with a kid like this, SATs results are the least of the worries. It's the impact on the other kids, both directly through disruptive behaviour, and indirectly through the amount of staff time taken to deal with this.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,011
    F1: some things to consider.

    No Safety Car at 2.2. Hungary is the circuit least likely to have one.

    Hamilton win each way at 4.33. A little bit long without being too out there. Red Bull seem a bit more confident of their hopes, but still looks a bit long.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,474
    Scott_P said:

    Jonathan said:

    Food shortage stories favour the Leavers IMO. People don't like to be pushed around and it somewhat supports the view that we will were not sovereign.

    Actual food shortages is a different matter entirely.

    Brexiteers said food would be cheaper after Brexit. Now the same people are saying we hope not to run out.

    Only massively stupid people will thank them for that.
    But they keep their promise to reduce the amount people spend on food?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,851

    Cyclefree said:

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
    Something cool and bring an umbrella.

    What are you seeing?
    As You Like It, I think. It's a treat (in return for a dinner at the Skylon, which I also recommend), so I'm not being told details.
    Sounds like fun. We're off to see The Merchant of Venice in the grounds of Kingston Lacy tomorrow night, our second outdoor theatre this year. Hard to beat in this weather. Enjoy!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,851
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Jonathan said:

    Food shortage stories favour the Leavers IMO. People don't like to be pushed around and it somewhat supports the view that we will were not sovereign.

    Actual food shortages is a different matter entirely.

    Brexiteers said food would be cheaper after Brexit. Now the same people are saying we hope not to run out.

    Only massively stupid people will thank them for that.
    But they keep their promise to reduce the amount people spend on food?
    Plus they address the obesity crisis? :wink:
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227

    Cyclefree said:

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
    Something cool and bring an umbrella.

    What are you seeing?
    As You Like It, I think. It's a treat (in return for a dinner at the Skylon, which I also recommend), so I'm not being told details.
    Enjoy!
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    Allowing for the fact that the Type 45's engines don't work, and the RFA is being gutted again, how many RN surface vessels are actually going to be deployable?
    Well warships typically spend a significant proportion of their lives in refit so we'd definitely be down to single figures.

    If you looked at what the tories actually do instead of what they say you could come to no other conclusion than that they absolutely despise the armed forces of the United Kingdom.
    How many vessels are needed for a carrier escort group? Would it effectively be the whole fleet?
    A US CSG is (at the very least, it's usually more) the carrier, a Tico guided missile destroyer, a destroyer squadron of two Arleigh Burkes, two hunter/killer subs and a tanker/replenishment vessel so at least 7. A UK only CSG outside a multi-national coalition would be almost impossible but it would probably be 1 x QEC, 1 x T45 (power plant permitting) , 1 x T23/T26 and 1 Wave class or Solid Support. However, in effort to deliver best value for the tax payer only one of the Solid Support ship is going be equipped for "heavy" replenishment (ie bombs and aircraft engines) so if that particular vessel is inconveniently unavailable the job's fucked.
    The carriers seem to be a luxury the rest of the navy has been sacrificed for.

    If we really need them, would we have been better off rebuilding the rest of the fleet first and waiting until more funds were available (which would have had the added benefit of waiting to see if the F35 was ever going to be a reliable airframe for carrier operations before ordering it, and making an informed and less costly decision on what kind of catapult system to opt for...) ?
    My impression always was that there was a community of interest. The Admiralty thought it would inevitably lead to refleeting and Brown saw Scottish metal bashing jobs. The military-industrial complex at a small scale.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Cyclefree said:

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    I've been invited to an open-air play in Regent's Park on Friday evening. Weather forecast: 32 degrees, 60% chance of thunderstorm. What the hell do I wear?

    And by the way a blood moon, which sounds quite fun:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/blood-moon-all-you-need-to-know-about-this-weeks-lunar-eclipse
    Something cool and bring an umbrella.

    What are you seeing?
    As You Like It, I think. It's a treat (in return for a dinner at the Skylon, which I also recommend), so I'm not being told details.
    As You Like It in the open air?

    That's a Jules & Sandy line, verbatim.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,834

    currystar said:

    Honestly , food shortages???? What utter nonsense.

    Talked about by the same people who expected that the crops would rot in the field in 2017 and then expected that the crops would rot in the field in 2018.
    Talkwd about by the Government minister in charge of Brexit.
This discussion has been closed.