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  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to his last day in office where he's sitting in the Oval Office and his evil doppleganger walks in and together they look at the camera and shout "punked!".

    Seems to be the only plausible explanation for how he can spout such entirely contradictory stuff and then fail to understand why everyone's looking at him so bemusedly.

    At the moment I think a magic 8-ball would have more gravitas as President of the United States and probably make more sense.

    Trump is a liar. That’s what he does. He lied his way through today because it was the easiest thing to do.
    It's worked for him so far.

    You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
    Abraham Lincoln
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to his last day in office where he's sitting in the Oval Office and his evil doppleganger walks in and together they look at the camera and shout "punked!".

    Seems to be the only plausible explanation for how he can spout such entirely contradictory stuff and then fail to understand why everyone's looking at him so bemusedly.

    At the moment I think a magic 8-ball would have more gravitas as President of the United States and probably make more sense.

    Trump is a liar. That’s what he does. He lied his way through today because it was the easiest thing to do.
    It's worked for him so far.

    You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
    Abraham Lincoln
    You can fool enough of them.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited July 2018
    OchEye said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Trump has now left the UK to go to Scotland.
    https://twitter.com/whitehouse/status/1017867274349436930?s=21

    :D

    Wonder whether he'll be hooking up and Nicola and Alex while he's "in the north" ??? :D
    Nope! Neither are besties with Trump these days.... And it used to be so different, menage a trois ..
    They were really good friend until they fell out over Donald's golf coarse... They might be able to get things back on track...

    And I'm sure Vlad would like them to make it up...

    #strangerthingshavehappened
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903
    Ed on Newsnight :)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,143
    edited July 2018

    This is truly extraordinary. Melania Trump’s director of communications lying and lying again. Demonstrably. It’s terrifying when you think about it.
    https://twitter.com/stephgrisham45/status/1017777230926270470?s=21

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html



  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,143

    rcs1000 said:

    BigRich said:

    With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

    What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

    Possible reasonses:

    1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

    2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

    3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

    4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

    I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

    Also, the French have never really liked NATO
    They can't even spell it.
    They have all the same letters

    Pause

    Just not necessarily in the same order... :)

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Newsnight: Boris resignation speech to Parliament on Wednesday...
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Think we might have our first Mega Polling Saturday since Theresa's election balls up tomorrow?

    Surely the Sunday papers will want to see how far the Tories are plummeting in the polls after Chequers? :D

    Better have an early night...

    I imagine the Tories will take a hit, but not a huge one.
    My hunch is little change . Some Brexiteers saying they'll vote UKIP or stay at home, balanced by some people relieved that she's steering a central course.
    Remember that if there is little change there's still a good chance that a majority of the polls will show a change in the same direction anyway, providing "evidence" for a spurious narrative.

    Won't the media be surprised if it shows May strengthening her position?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,143
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to his last day in office where he's sitting in the Oval Office and his evil doppleganger walks in and together they look at the camera and shout "punked!".

    Seems to be the only plausible explanation for how he can spout such entirely contradictory stuff and then fail to understand why everyone's looking at him so bemusedly.

    At the moment I think a magic 8-ball would have more gravitas as President of the United States and probably make more sense.

    Trump is a liar. That’s what he does. He lied his way through today because it was the easiest thing to do.
    It's worked for him so far.

    You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
    Abraham Lincoln
    He only has to fool 51% of the Electoral College on two sets of days in 2016 and 2020


    (ignoring the Congressional verification in January before Inauguration Day)
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117

    Ed on Newsnight :)

    His saliva problem is all a bit unsightly....all lips, spitty white, stringy phlem which looks a bit grotesque
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,212
    edited July 2018
    GIN1138 said:

    Think we might have our first Mega Polling Saturday since Theresa's election balls up tomorrow?

    Surely the Sunday papers will want to see how far the Tories are plummeting in the polls after Chequers? :D

    Better have an early night...

    We have had 2 polls since Chequers, from Survation and YouGov both with Labour 2% ahead.

    UKIP is up a bit, now on 5% with Survation and 6% with YouGov (who have 10% of 2017 Tories now voting UKIP) but the Tories are by no means out of the game either despite May's plans for a deal with the EU.

    Indeed YouGov has 3% of 2017 Labour voters voting Tory now but only 2% of 2017 Tory voters now voting Labour


    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/phvyn092lg/TimesResults_180711_VI_Brexit.pdf
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,169
    In his first news conference as White House press secretary, Spicer attacked the media for reporting that Donald Trump’s inauguration crowd had been on the small side. Despite photographs showing large stretches of the National Mall empty that had been crowded with people for Barack Obama’s inauguration, Spicer insisted that Trump’s inauguration had drawn the largest audience in history.

    In his book, Spicer explains that he took the lectern under direct pressure from the president to shoot down the unwelcome news reports – and that Trump was unhappy with his performance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/13/sean-spicer-book-i-started-to-wonder-if-my-first-day-would-be-my-last
  • Re Polling: The Com Res body has been tweeting out a few tit bits from a new Com Res for tomorrows Mirror. Nothing we don't already know. Folk feel the Brexit negotiations are going badly, Folk don't think May personally is doing a good job on Brexit. A trade deal with the EU ( 50% ) is seen as a priority ovrr the US ( 29% ).

    But the tweets are all slightly vague onn the specific questions asked I guess to respect the Mirror's embargo. But one to watch out for tomorrow.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    AndyJS said:
    Sky News said:

    Earlier in the day, Mr Trump visited the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst where he and Theresa May watched a display of special forces from both the UK and the US.

    This visit was not open to the media.

    I can't help but imagine what might have happened at Sandhurst that convinced Trump not to grab the Queen's hand when walking down stairs later in the day...
  • Yellow_SubmarineYellow_Submarine Posts: 647
    edited July 2018
    It also looks like the Com Res has been turned around overnight to test opinion on Trump's Brexit intervention. Given that means the fieldwork musy have been done in less than a day and most folk won't have had time to digest the Sun story I'd take with a bag of salt.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,307
    GIN1138 said:

    Newsnight: Boris resignation speech to Parliament on Wednesday...

    This resignation seems a bit drawn out. He’s getting slightly Charlie Falconer.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    GIN1138 said:

    Newsnight: Boris resignation speech to Parliament on Wednesday...

    My guess is that Boris will grovel. His resignation made everyone laugh at him and side with Theresa, so he'll want to look gracious in defeat before lying low for a bit.
  • Telegraph briefing David Davis will be making media interventions over the weekend and is likely to vote against the government on 1 of the 4 rebel amendments to the Trade Bill next week.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited July 2018
    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    tyson said:

    Ed on Newsnight :)

    His saliva problem is all a bit unsightly....all lips, spitty white, stringy phlem which looks a bit grotesque
    All seems rather petty compared to the series of breathtakingly competent displays of political judgement we got from the ever so presentable Dave.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    edited July 2018

    GIN1138 said:

    Newsnight: Boris resignation speech to Parliament on Wednesday...

    My guess is that Boris will grovel. His resignation made everyone laugh at him and side with Theresa, so he'll want to look gracious in defeat before lying low for a bit.
    My guess too.The worry for the Tories is that he will return to cakeism from the backbenches, probably on a different topic, as he has realised siding with the ERG on Brexit is not a viable path to personal advancement.
    The extra spending on the NHS, such as it is, is my guess.
    How it is to be paid for remains unclear.
    An intervention from BoJo in the Autumn., opposing any tax rises or spending cuts put forward by Hammond might get the Tory members' juices flowing.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,143
    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    Weirdly, I think they will care...eventually. People believe lies because it's important to them, but as time passes, people become less emotional and are more willing to consider the truth. And besides, with what else do we combat lies but truth?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903
    viewcode said:

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    Weirdly, I think they will care...eventually. People believe lies because it's important to them, but as time passes, people become less emotional and are more willing to consider the truth. And besides, with what else do we combat lies but truth?
    I always lie. In fact, I am lying to you now!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,143

    viewcode said:

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    Weirdly, I think they will care...eventually. People believe lies because it's important to them, but as time passes, people become less emotional and are more willing to consider the truth. And besides, with what else do we combat lies but truth?
    I always lie. In fact, I am lying to you now!
    Does not compute! Does not compute!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBAijg5Betw
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    Weirdly, I think they will care...eventually. People believe lies because it's important to them, but as time passes, people become less emotional and are more willing to consider the truth. And besides, with what else do we combat lies but truth?
    I always lie. In fact, I am lying to you now!
    Does not compute! Does not compute!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBAijg5Betw
    Wrong Sci-Fi show!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqCiw0wD44U
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,249
    viewcode said:

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    Weirdly, I think they will care...eventually. People believe lies because it's important to them, but as time passes, people become less emotional and are more willing to consider the truth. And besides, with what else do we combat lies but truth?
    I would like that to be true, but is there any evidence for it?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    viewcode said:

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    Weirdly, I think they will care...eventually. People believe lies because it's important to them, but as time passes, people become less emotional and are more willing to consider the truth. And besides, with what else do we combat lies but truth?
    They might care when he lies about something important - like never having promised a wall.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,741

    HYUFD said:

    Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

    When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little
    Personally both the above marches reinforced my determination to vote the other way - I disliked the abusive elements (though both had perfectly civil elements too) and felt I wasn't willing to be pushed around. The demo that actually made me have another think was a completely silent march by Tamils about Sri Lanka - that seemed impressive, dignified and worth paying attention to.
    An interesting comment. I went on one (I think the first) Countryside March (*). In our little bit off the march I saw no-one abusing the anti-hunt protesters - in fact, the mood was very jovial and fun. I did see lots of anti-hunt protesters saying and shouting vile things towards the marchers, though.

    We ended up in ?Hyde Park? with a family who had been carrying a hamper with them, and had strawberries and champagne on a blanket.

    Now, I only really got to see the area of the march we were in, so perhaps marchers abused protesters elsewhere. But likewise, I doubt you saw everything the protesters did ...

    (*) Protest marches aren't really my cup of tea, but I'd been staying in a hotel in central London with a gf and we happened to leave at the time of the match and joined in.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,307

    viewcode said:

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    Weirdly, I think they will care...eventually. People believe lies because it's important to them, but as time passes, people become less emotional and are more willing to consider the truth. And besides, with what else do we combat lies but truth?
    They might care when he lies about something important - like never having promised a wall.
    There’s no evidence of that thus far in the US.
    More disturbingly, the press has more or less given up on consistently fact checking him as he lies so regularly. It is as though the Trump alternate reality has become normalised - which in the case of Fox new is pretty well the case anyway. Part of being a Trump partisan means adapting to supporting an habitual and obvious liar.

    What is interesting is watching the shocked reaction in the UK, first because it’s curious how journalists don’t seem to have noticed what’s been going on in the US for the last couple of years, and second since the US media used to react in a similar manner, back in 2016.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,307

    HYUFD said:

    Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

    When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little
    Personally both the above marches reinforced my determination to vote the other way - I disliked the abusive elements (though both had perfectly civil elements too) and felt I wasn't willing to be pushed around. The demo that actually made me have another think was a completely silent march by Tamils about Sri Lanka - that seemed impressive, dignified and worth paying attention to.
    An interesting comment. I went on one (I think the first) Countryside March (*). In our little bit off the march I saw no-one abusing the anti-hunt protesters - in fact, the mood was very jovial and fun. I did see lots of anti-hunt protesters saying and shouting vile things towards the marchers, though.

    We ended up in ?Hyde Park? with a family who had been carrying a hamper with them, and had strawberries and champagne on a blanket.

    Now, I only really got to see the area of the march we were in, so perhaps marchers abused protesters elsewhere. But likewise, I doubt you saw everything the protesters did ...

    (*) Protest marches aren't really my cup of tea, but I'd been staying in a hotel in central London with a gf and we happened to leave at the time of the match and joined in.
    Also curious on a issue of such importance as going to war, that a politician’s determination to vote should be reinforced by what effectively seems to be mild pique.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    Newsnight: Boris resignation speech to Parliament on Wednesday...

    The Telegraph have apparently re-signed BoZo as a columnist, so for a fleeting moment I thought he might actually resign his seat
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited July 2018
    FF43 said:

    Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

    Paying £39+ billion to bake in an annual deficit of £95 billion with the EU in trade. Genius!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Good morning, everyone.

    Hope Adams is alright.
  • GreenHeronGreenHeron Posts: 148
    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    People vote for whoever will look after their interests the best, not who is the most virtuous or honest - let's face it, if these were the criteria Trump would finish dead last every time. He won because he tapped into widely held concerns about Democrat policies moving working class jobs out of America, stagnating wages and immigration. With wages rising and employment at very high levels and the genuine possibility of industries coming back into America, I imagine his core constituency will be very happy indeed with his performance, and the fact that he is a serial liar and a complete embarrassment is a small price to pay.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    People vote for whoever will look after their interests the best, not who is the most virtuous or honest - let's face it, if these were the criteria Trump would finish dead last every time. He won because he tapped into widely held concerns about Democrat policies moving working class jobs out of America, stagnating wages and immigration. With wages rising and employment at very high levels and the genuine possibility of industries coming back into America, I imagine his core constituency will be very happy indeed with his performance, and the fact that he is a serial liar and a complete embarrassment is a small price to pay.
    Although I think he was materially helped in this regard by the fact that the Democratic candidate was under police investigation for much of the campaign, that her husband had been prosecuted for perjury, and that both of them had been investigated for real estate fraud.

    Even though no action was brought against her on any occasion, Clinton's baggage negated a whole load of essential attack lines against Trump. They needed somebody who could pose as a person of integrity - which she couldn't.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Mr. Doethur, plus she was a complacent and very establishment candidate. Led to her utterly misusing her considerable campaigning resources and to the electorate being naturally predisposed against her (of course, to a large extent that was true the other way too).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442
    edited July 2018

    Mr. Doethur, plus she was a complacent and very establishment candidate. Led to her utterly misusing her considerable campaigning resources and to the electorate being naturally predisposed against her (of course, to a large extent that was true the other way too).

    All true, but I was thinking more specifically about how Trump gets away with the equivalent of murder over his total lack of integrity.

    Edit - just to illustrate this, look at this story:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/272790-sanders-spokesperson-fires-back-at-clinton-for-healthcare

    This is Trump-style dishonesty and spin - but it's Clinton who was doing it.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Newsnight: Boris resignation speech to Parliament on Wednesday...

    The Telegraph have apparently re-signed BoZo as a columnist, so for a fleeting moment I thought he might actually resign his seat
    Naah. Boris needs the Wonga.. a quick 250k is a nice little earner/He still harbours ambitions of being PM.. Hopefully it will never happen,.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,741
    Way off-topic:

    I was walking in Northamptonshire yesterday, and whilst walking through woodland I came across an old air-raid shelter: one of the semi-buried tube types (I think a Stanton Shelter). These are fairly common - especially around airfields and the like, but almost all I see are blanked off or filled in. This one seemed to be open, and so I went down to find it looked almost complete.

    I went in a few when I was a kid at a factory site my dad visited, but those had been heavily altered. This one seemed intact, aside from the wooden benches having rotted.

    Quite a pleasant find.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898
    The lying is a weird one. Those opposed to a politician are always desperate to point out lies as apparently irrefutable evidence that the person lying should not be trusted. But those who agree with the liar are much more interested in the argument that they make which they find persuasive. In short it is their argument and their intentions which are of interest, not whether they tell the truth about other things.

    The venn diagram overlap occurs where there is an argument about the facts being used to make the argument. Those instinctively opposed challenge those facts and ask how you can take the word of a liar. Those instinctively in favour of course latch on to those facts and defend them.

    The mistake opponents make is that they think objective truth will win the day. The evidence to the contrary is quite overwhelming.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898

    Way off-topic:

    I was walking in Northamptonshire yesterday, and whilst walking through woodland I came across an old air-raid shelter: one of the semi-buried tube types (I think a Stanton Shelter). These are fairly common - especially around airfields and the like, but almost all I see are blanked off or filled in. This one seemed to be open, and so I went down to find it looked almost complete.

    I went in a few when I was a kid at a factory site my dad visited, but those had been heavily altered. This one seemed intact, aside from the wooden benches having rotted.

    Quite a pleasant find.

    When I was a child there were still intact bomb shelters in Dudhope Park in Dundee that you could go in. All long gone now. Inevitably they were used by teenagers for drink, sex and latterly drugs so they were taken away.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,654
    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.

    Trump can’t win just with his base. He needs at least some support from independents. This is where the identity of the next Democrat candidate will be crucial. They need one who can do three things: (1) prevent a left-leaning third party candidate; (2) get minorities to turn out; and (3) connect with non-aligned voters. Trump probably does a lot of the heavy lifting on (1) and (2), but voter suppression will limit the impact. That makes (3) absolutely crucial.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898
    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:

    viewcode said:

    The Boeing 757, registration number N757FA is owned by Donald Trump via DJT Operations LLC

    It flew from New York to Scotland on June 24 2016. It left New York at 2016-06-24 01:21:26 UTC and landed at Prestwick airport a few minutes after 2016-06-24 07:13:42 UTC

    At some point he then transferred to the Sikorsky S76B Spirit helicopter G-TRMP (formerly N76TE?) which then flew to Turnberry Golf Course and arrived later that day.

    h ttps://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/map?icao=AA3410&date=2016-06-24

    h ttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-republic-presidential-nominee-donald-trump-arrives-by-helicopter-with-107203687.html

    This doesn't matter to a single one of his base. There have been (literally) hundreds of similar examples over the last 2 years. The denial over the Sun report is another embarrassingly-easy-to-prove lie. The Sun report itself is chock full of "misrememberings" other than the Referendum one.

    THE BASE DON'T CARE. Weird and worrying though that may be, it gives the opposition no traction. The whole thing is completely fucked up.
    People vote for whoever will look after their interests the best, not who is the most virtuous or honest - let's face it, if these were the criteria Trump would finish dead last every time. He won because he tapped into widely held concerns about Democrat policies moving working class jobs out of America, stagnating wages and immigration. With wages rising and employment at very high levels and the genuine possibility of industries coming back into America, I imagine his core constituency will be very happy indeed with his performance, and the fact that he is a serial liar and a complete embarrassment is a small price to pay.
    Although I think he was materially helped in this regard by the fact that the Democratic candidate was under police investigation for much of the campaign, that her husband had been prosecuted for perjury, and that both of them had been investigated for real estate fraud.

    Even though no action was brought against her on any occasion, Clinton's baggage negated a whole load of essential attack lines against Trump. They needed somebody who could pose as a person of integrity - which she couldn't.
    Lock her up. Such an easy response which gave Trump so much cover.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2018
    Poor Theresa. Watching her grovel for scraps of approval from Trump reminded me of Blair in a too tight sweater following George Bush around an airfield looking like a little boy lost. One thing that struck me was how easily Trump can patronise certain people but not others.. It worked with May but not with the Queen. It also works with Macron but not with Merkel. He can sniff out the weak.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited July 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

    There's not a lot to take over. Creating a real single market in services is probably impossible, unless you can create a single legal system. Our trade in services with the EU is far less than our trade in goods.

    By contrast, our trade in services with non EU countries is much greater than our trade in services with the EU. And, the domestic market in services is bigger than either.

    We lose little if we are not part of the Single Market for services, but I doubt if the EU negotiators will agree this.
    I don’t think this is right.

    First, ....
    I don't think the Single Market works to our advantage at all. We have a humungous trade deficit with the countries that make up the Single Market, partly offset by a large trade surplus with the countries that don't. That might change if there were one legal system across the Single Market (enabling me, for example, to practise as a solicitor in France after qualifying in England) but that will never happen. It would require individual nations (and regions within nations) to give up too much independence.

    I'd rather we were not part of the Single Market at all, but recognise that leaving the Single Market in its entirety would be massively disruptive to companies like Nissan, Honda, and Airbus. Therefore, remaining within it for goods, but not for services seems reasonable.

    But, as I say, I don't think the EU negotiators will buy such a proposal.
    The Chequers proposal trades our advantage in services for maintaining the status quo for goods where we have a relative disadvantage. At that level it's a cracking deal for the EU and an atrocious one for us. The question is whether it tempts EU member states to ignore the bits of the deal they don't like. For us it's an extremely expensive way to pay for pretending there's an end to FoM and we're "in control"
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,654
    DavidL said:

    The lying is a weird one. Those opposed to a politician are always desperate to point out lies as apparently irrefutable evidence that the person lying should not be trusted. But those who agree with the liar are much more interested in the argument that they make which they find persuasive. In short it is their argument and their intentions which are of interest, not whether they tell the truth about other things.

    The venn diagram overlap occurs where there is an argument about the facts being used to make the argument. Those instinctively opposed challenge those facts and ask how you can take the word of a liar. Those instinctively in favour of course latch on to those facts and defend them.

    The mistake opponents make is that they think objective truth will win the day. The evidence to the contrary is quite overwhelming.

    Lying works these days because politicians no longer seek to speak to or for the country. They address their side. And their side will forgive anything because it’s not politics, it’s personal - all about identity. Trump knows it, Corbyn, Rees Mogg, Johnson, ministers and shadow know it too. When politics is so polarised and social media so entrenched, it’s a no-lose strategy. It’s hard to see how it will end short of a shattering event that almost physically pulls the wool from people’s eyes.

  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    @Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

    @kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

    .

    Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

    If only!
    I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

    WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.
    I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal. :wink:
    I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.
    The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.
    I would say that some people deserve death, but we can't agree a fair and consistent standard to determine who deserves death.
    And there have been plenty of people where we thought the evidence was incontrovertible...
    Assume that the evidence is perfect in every case, for the sake of argument.

    I still don't see how you come up with a method of determining who dies that is both consistent. and fair.

    Killing every person who was convicted of murder would be consistent, but certainly not fair. Most murderers are not evil people. So, then you fall back on arguments as to whether murderer X is more sympathetic than murder Y.
    Don’t they consider “aggaravating factors” in the US when considering the death penalty? Eg was it pre-meditated, were multiple murders committed, was it a particularly gruesome death, etc.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2018
    DavidL said:

    The lying is a weird one. Those opposed to a politician are always desperate to point out lies as apparently irrefutable evidence that the person lying should not be trusted. But those who agree with the liar are much more interested in the argument that they make which they find persuasive. In short it is their argument and their intentions which are of interest, not whether they tell the truth about other things.

    The venn diagram overlap occurs where there is an argument about the facts being used to make the argument. Those instinctively opposed challenge those facts and ask how you can take the word of a liar. Those instinctively in favour of course latch on to those facts and defend them.

    The mistake opponents make is that they think objective truth will win the day. The evidence to the contrary is quite overwhelming.

    Perhaps Trumps lasting legacy is the devaluation of 'truth' and therefore politicians.

    Before his arrival 'truth' from politicians was compulsory and understood to be so. Like TV ads it was the one golden rule. Tell an untruth knowingly or unknowingly and you lost your job. What followed from that was that you knew that what was claimed was going to be cast iron fact. It was the rock that gave politicians standing. Thanks to Trump that is now history.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Mr. Roger, Trump's not the originator of that.

    Look at Blair's Iraq dossier. Or Osborne's punishment budget. Political bending of the truth seems to have been rising significantly over the years.

    And that's before we get into Labour breaking manifesto commitments on income tax rises and tuition fee increases, or the Conservative attempt to do likewise with National Insurance.
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 265
    Nobody could accuse me of being a royalist...but if someone disrespected my Granny like that i would kill them..
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Penddu said:

    Nobody could accuse me of being a royalist...but if someone disrespected my Granny like that i would kill them..

    Seems like a rather disproportionate punishment for disrespect!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,678

    DavidL said:

    The lying is a weird one. Those opposed to a politician are always desperate to point out lies as apparently irrefutable evidence that the person lying should not be trusted. But those who agree with the liar are much more interested in the argument that they make which they find persuasive. In short it is their argument and their intentions which are of interest, not whether they tell the truth about other things.

    The venn diagram overlap occurs where there is an argument about the facts being used to make the argument. Those instinctively opposed challenge those facts and ask how you can take the word of a liar. Those instinctively in favour of course latch on to those facts and defend them.

    The mistake opponents make is that they think objective truth will win the day. The evidence to the contrary is quite overwhelming.

    Lying works these days because politicians no longer seek to speak to or for the country. They address their side. And their side will forgive anything because it’s not politics, it’s personal - all about identity. Trump knows it, Corbyn, Rees Mogg, Johnson, ministers and shadow know it too. When politics is so polarised and social media so entrenched, it’s a no-lose strategy. It’s hard to see how it will end short of a shattering event that almost physically pulls the wool from people’s eyes.

    It is an amazingly poor state of affairs where Trump can say that black is white and it have no negative impact whatsoever. Things ate completely broken. Rome will fall.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    @Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.Trump.

    .

    Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

    If only!
    I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

    WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.
    I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal. :wink:
    I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.
    The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.
    I would say that some people deserve death, but we can't agree a fair and consistent standard to determine who deserves death.
    And there have been plenty of people where we thought the evidence was incontrovertible...
    Assume that the evidence is perfect in every case, for the sake of argument.

    I still don't see how you come up with a method of determining who dies that is both consistent. and fair.

    Killing every person who was convicted of murder would be consistent, but certainly not fair. Most murderers are not evil people. So, then you fall back on arguments as to whether murderer X is more sympathetic than murder Y.
    Don’t they consider “aggaravating factors” in the US when considering the death penalty? Eg was it pre-meditated, were multiple murders committed, was it a particularly gruesome death, etc.
    True, but there's still massive inconsistency in the imposition of the death penalty. If you can afford a good lawyer, you're far less likely to get a death sentence, however bad you are, than someone who relies on a public defender.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635

    Mr. Roger, Trump's not the originator of that.

    Look at Blair's Iraq dossier. Or Osborne's punishment budget. Political bending of the truth seems to have been rising significantly over the years.

    And that's before we get into Labour breaking manifesto commitments on income tax rises and tuition fee increases, or the Conservative attempt to do likewise with National Insurance.

    Or promises to hold a referendum on what became the Lisbon Treaty?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Mr. Sandpit, well, quite.

    I can see why people dislike Trump. His taped comments on women were reprehensible. However, he is not the cause of the situation, but a symptom of it.
This discussion has been closed.