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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So what do we make of today and what are the political implications?

What a strange day with several massive demonstrations in London, Trump describing many of his comments in the Sun this morning as fake news and the events at Chequers and Windsor castle.

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FrancisUrquhart

That picture is FAKE NEWS...its makes the balloon look massive.

FrancisUrquhart

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

kle4

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

Pulpstar

Goliath has slain Goliath+2 inches.

gettingbetter

The puerile protests were unnecessary. His failure to bow before Her Majesty has shown everyone that he is a cad, and that the First Lady has shown that she is not one.

Sean_F

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

DecrepitJohnL

Pulpstar said:

Goliath has slain Goliath+2 inches.

Isn't Anderson the official pb tip for Wimbledon, or was the tip only for one match? There was a lot of talk earlier in the week but I wasn't really paying attention, what with the football.

MJW

The most important moment on this side of the pond in terms of the UK will hardly be remarked upon as people chase after the news lines and are overwhelmed by Trump's ludicrousness. However, it's pretty simple - in the presser Trump singled out EU agricultural and trade restrictions as "unfair" to American businesses and indicated that the point of a trade deal with post-Brexit Britain from his/America's point of view would be to gut these. That's going to make the glorious post-Brexit US trade deal toxic, even in the unlikely event our EU deal leaves it on the table. Of course we've all known this for a while but it makes it pretty explicit - and importantly isn't just Trump's view but his party's. We're going to be up a chlorine imbued slurry filled creek without a paddle after March.

From the US side, events across the Atlantic seem much more important. Fox will show Trump meeting the Queen, get Farage on saying how all Brits really love Donald, while the reality based press will depict him as the offensive buffoon he is - and everyone will carry on listening to whatever they want to hear.

AndyJS

The Frankfurt School and postmodernism have been teaching people for decades that there's no such thing as objective truth. It can't be surprising, therefore, that we've ended up in this dire situation with fake news.

FF43

Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

Benpointer

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

kle4

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

Well, the virtue being signalled is not always sincerely held, it just can be, so I am sure something could be worked out.

Benpointer

FrancisUrquhart said:

That picture is FAKE NEWS...its makes the balloon look massive.

It's called perspective @FU but I acknowledge it may be difficult for you to sense.

Sean_F

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

An example would be a Republican primary in the US.

Candidate A "I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, or threat to the mother's life.". Candidate B "You're a liberal, pinko, commie. A RINO."

Benpointer

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

An example would be a Republican primary in the US.

Candidate A "I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, or threat to the mother's life.". Candidate B "You're a liberal, pinko, commie. A RINO."

And the 'virtue' being demonstrated there is... ?

HYUFD

Trump can always console himself that fewer people turned out in London to march against him than against George W Bush's Iraq War or even Tony Blair's plan to ban hunting

HYUFD

Also standing sheltering from the rain near a few young American males with 'Make America Great Again' baseball caps on so was not all one way traffic

Stark_Dawning

Just returned from a superb talk in Salisbury by Nicholas Soames on Churchill. Soames made his opinions abundantly clear on several pertinent subjects: Trump ('ghastly'), the novichock poisonings ('an act of war'), Brexit (terrible mistake but the vote must be honoured), Theresa (guts, stickability, determined, doing as well as anyone could), referendums (never again).

AlastairMeeks

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

Sean_F

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

An example would be a Republican primary in the US.

Candidate A "I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, or threat to the mother's life.". Candidate B "You're a liberal, pinko, commie. A RINO."

And the 'virtue' being demonstrated there is... ?

Ideological purity.

tlg86

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

DecrepitJohnL

Stark_Dawning said:

Just returned from a superb talk in Salisbury by Nicholas Soames on Churchill. Soames made his opinions abundantly clear on several pertinent subjects: Trump ('ghastly'), the novichock poisonings ('an act of war'), Brexit (terrible mistake but the vote must be honoured), Theresa (guts, stickability, determined, doing as well as anyone could), referendums (never again).

Did Soames say anything about running the country while Churchill was ill, as Carrington suggested in the interview re-shown for the latter's death in the week?

Nigelb

Benpointer said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

That picture is FAKE NEWS...its makes the balloon look massive.

It's called perspective @FU but I acknowledge it may be difficult for you to sense.

And are those who enjoy using the term perjoratively engaging in vice signalling ?

HYUFD

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little

numbertwelve

Today went better than expected for TMay. She got Trump to row back somewhat from his comments. Poor Liz having to make small talk with him though, she really does embody duty!

AlastairMeeks

tlg86 said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.

Nigelb

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

I don’t know. We seem to have acquainted the US press with the term cockwomble....

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/07/a-very-british-protest/565112/

DecrepitJohnL

DecrepitJohnL said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Just returned from a superb talk in Salisbury by Nicholas Soames on Churchill. Soames made his opinions abundantly clear on several pertinent subjects: Trump ('ghastly'), the novichock poisonings ('an act of war'), Brexit (terrible mistake but the vote must be honoured), Theresa (guts, stickability, determined, doing as well as anyone could), referendums (never again).

Did Soames say anything about running the country while Churchill was ill, as Carrington suggested in the interview re-shown for the latter's death in the week?

About his father running the country, even.

Benpointer

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

An example would be a Republican primary in the US.

Candidate A "I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, or threat to the mother's life.". Candidate B "You're a liberal, pinko, commie. A RINO."

And the 'virtue' being demonstrated there is... ?

Ideological purity.

Ideological purity is not virtue unless the ideology is virtuous; fascism was often ideologically pure but always without virtue.

OchEye

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.

+1

Edited: This is probably the best argument against the Death Penalty I have ever read.

Benpointer

Nigelb said:

Benpointer said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

That picture is FAKE NEWS...its makes the balloon look massive.

It's called perspective @FU but I acknowledge it may be difficult for you to sense.

And are those who enjoy using the term perjoratively engaging in vice signalling ?

Which term? Fake news?

Benpointer

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little

Poll Tax? Votes for women?

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little

To be fair, it was not to change polcy, it was to get rid of Trump but the footage today was all about Trump at Chequers and meeting the Queen, which will play well to his core in the US

Benpointer

Completely off topic. Does anyone know if it's possible to find out the low tide times for North Cornwall for November this year?

HYUFD

numbertwelve said:

Today went better than expected for TMay. She got Trump to row back somewhat from his comments. Poor Liz having to make small talk with him though, she really does embody duty!

He even lost her at one stage and blocked her from inspecting the troops as a result

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/royal/988504/Queen-Donald-Trump-UK-visit-video-royal-protocol-Windsor-Castle-royal-news-protest/amp

felix

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

You could have stopped at 'struggling' and we'd have understood.

Ishmael_Z

Benpointer said:

Completely off topic. Does anyone know if it's possible to find out the low tide times for North Cornwall for November this year?

Online sources tend to only give youthe next 7 days. There's a book for the whole year widely for sale in Cornwall and apparently buyable online at

www.visitbude.info/product/cornish-coast-tide-times-2018/

BigRich

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

Benpointer

Ishmael_Z said:

Benpointer said:

Completely off topic. Does anyone know if it's possible to find out the low tide times for North Cornwall for November this year?

Online sources tend to only give youthe next 7 days. There's a book for the whole year widely for sale in Cornwall and apparently buyable online at

www.visitbude.info/product/cornish-coast-tide-times-2018/

Great, thanks!

GIN1138

No sign of Malc and Max being let out of the sin bin then?

Benpointer

felix said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

You could have stopped at 'struggling' and we'd have understood.

Tbf I wasn't struggling too much since I knew it was a pointless exercise.

OchEye

OchEye said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.

+1

Edited: This is probably the best argument against the Death Penalty I have ever read.

Thinking about this, I also have to add, that I have great sympathy to the argument that if, through incurable illness that you will die a painful or degrading death, you should have the option of requesting the tools to end your life. Should you make the decision to use the tool or equipment, then it is your choice, not someone else's responsibility.

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

numbertwelve said:

Today went better than expected for TMay. She got Trump to row back somewhat from his comments. Poor Liz having to make small talk with him though, she really does embody duty!

He even lost her at one stage and blocked her from inspecting the troops as a result

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/royal/988504/Queen-Donald-Trump-UK-visit-video-royal-protocol-Windsor-Castle-royal-news-protest/amp

That was so funny

HYUFD

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

numbertwelve said:

Today went better than expected for TMay. She got Trump to row back somewhat from his comments. Poor Liz having to make small talk with him though, she really does embody duty!

He even lost her at one stage and blocked her from inspecting the troops as a result

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/royal/988504/Queen-Donald-Trump-UK-visit-video-royal-protocol-Windsor-Castle-royal-news-protest/amp

That was so funny

Pity there is no 'Have I Got New for You' tonight

HYUFD

BigRich said:

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

His Paris visit was also before his trade war with the EU and his separating migrant children from their parents.

Plenty of protesters were using it as an anti Brexit and even anti Tory rally judging by placards not just anti Trump, those are not issues in Paris under Macron and En Marche.

Plus London is really the New York of Europe now not Paris

Sean_F

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

An example would be a Republican primary in the US.

Candidate A "I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, or threat to the mother's life.". Candidate B "You're a liberal, pinko, commie. A RINO."

And the 'virtue' being demonstrated there is... ?

Ideological purity.

Ideological purity is not virtue unless the ideology is virtuous; fascism was often ideologically pure but always without virtue.

But Candidate B both believes his ideology to be virtuous, and gets to score points off Candidate A, by showing that he is less virtuous.

Or say, it's Iran in 1980. Judge A says " I think homosexuals can be cured, with electric shocks.". Judge B says "What kind of wuss are you? The Koran says they should be put to death.".

Sean_F

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.

I would say that some people deserve death, but we can't agree a fair and consistent standard to determine who deserves death.

Benpointer

Ishmael_Z said:

Benpointer said:

Completely off topic. Does anyone know if it's possible to find out the low tide times for North Cornwall for November this year?

Online sources tend to only give youthe next 7 days. There's a book for the whole year widely for sale in Cornwall and apparently buyable online at

www.visitbude.info/product/cornish-coast-tide-times-2018/

Just found this on Planetseafishing which seems to publish them online.

https://www.planetseafishing.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/padstow-2018.pdf

OchEye

HYUFD said:

Trump can always console himself that fewer people turned out in London to march against him than against George W Bush's Iraq War or even Tony Blair's plan to ban hunting

But still more than at his inauguration ...

Benpointer

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

numbertwelve said:

Today went better than expected for TMay. She got Trump to row back somewhat from his comments. Poor Liz having to make small talk with him though, she really does embody duty!

He even lost her at one stage and blocked her from inspecting the troops as a result

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/royal/988504/Queen-Donald-Trump-UK-visit-video-royal-protocol-Windsor-Castle-royal-news-protest/amp

That was so funny

Am I imagining he's put on a bit of weight recently? He seemed to be lumbering along there a bit.

HYUFD

Piers Morgan has the only UK interview with Trump while he is in Britain on Air Force One coming up on ITV or so he casually mentions

https://mobile.twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1017841362425778177

Benpointer

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

An example would be a Republican primary in the US.

Candidate A "I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, or threat to the mother's life.". Candidate B "You're a liberal, pinko, commie. A RINO."

And the 'virtue' being demonstrated there is... ?

Ideological purity.

Ideological purity is not virtue unless the ideology is virtuous; fascism was often ideologically pure but always without virtue.

But Candidate B both believes his ideology to be virtuous, and gets to score points off Candidate A, by showing that he is less virtuous.

Or say, it's Iran in 1980. Judge A says " I think homosexuals can be cured, with electric shocks.". Judge B says "What kind of wuss are you? The Koran says they should be put to death.".

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

PClipp

BigRich said:

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

Mrs May is on the point of selling the entire country out to the Americans.

kle4

PClipp said:

BigRich said:

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

Mrs May is on the point of selling the entire country out to the Americans.

How can that be, I thought Trump was pissed because May's deal sells the country out to the EU instead?

kle4

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I s well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

An example would be a Republican primary in the US.

Candidate A "I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, or threat to the mother's life.". Candidate B "You're a liberal, pinko, commie. A RINO."

And the 'virtue' being demonstrated there is... ?

Ideological purity.

Ideological purity is not virtue unless the ideology is virtuous; fascism was often ideologically pure but always without virtue.

But Candidate B both believes his ideology to be virtuous, and gets to score points off Candidate A, by showing that he is less virtuous.

Or say, it's Iran in 1980. Judge A says " I think homosexuals can be cured, with electric shocks.". Judge B says "What kind of wuss are you? The Koran says they should be put to death.".

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

It doesn't happen often, but it should - no reason it should be partisan.

OchEye

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little

Lets of steam. Most people know it doesn't make any difference, but it gives them a chance to influence the political spectrum And most governments allow it, to be shown as if they are actually listening, when in fact they mostly don't give a damn

Philip_Thompson

OchEye said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.

+1

Edited: This is probably the best argument against the Death Penalty I have ever read.

It's also the American religious right's argument against abortion.

Polruan

Benpointer said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Benpointer said:

Completely off topic. Does anyone know if it's possible to find out the low tide times for North Cornwall for November this year?

Online sources tend to only give youthe next 7 days. There's a book for the whole year widely for sale in Cornwall and apparently buyable online at

www.visitbude.info/product/cornish-coast-tide-times-2018/

Just found this on Planetseafishing which seems to publish them online.

https://www.planetseafishing.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/padstow-2018.pdf

You can pretty much work them out from the phases of the moon (full/new moon springs are always the same time of day, for example here in Penzance you get lows at 12 noon and 1pm on the two biggest days of spring tides which are always at the same stage in the lunar cycle). So if you look up the moons for the dates you’re visiting, you can work out the tides pretty easily by reference to the current 7 day forecast in conjunction with the current moon.

...of course if you’ve found the actual tides online you’re sorted, but there’s less satisfaction in doing it that way

Big_G_NorthWales

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

numbertwelve said:

Today went better than expected for TMay. She got Trump to row back somewhat from his comments. Poor Liz having to make small talk with him though, she really does embody duty!

He even lost her at one stage and blocked her from inspecting the troops as a result

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/royal/988504/Queen-Donald-Trump-UK-visit-video-royal-protocol-Windsor-Castle-royal-news-protest/amp

That was so funny

Am I imagining he's put on a bit of weight recently? He seemed to be lumbering along there a bit.

He did seem large to our diminutive Queen, but she is the class act

BigRich

HYUFD said:

BigRich said:

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

His Paris visit was also before his trade war with the EU and his separating migrant children from their parents.

Plenty of protesters were using it as an anti Brexit and even anti Tory rally judging by placards not just anti Trump, those are not issues in Paris under Macron and En Marche.

Plus London is really the New York of Europe now not Paris

yes good points, but still surprised that there were no memorable protests

glw

Standing next to human garbage for a few hours would make almost anyone look good, so May is a winner today.

Philip_Thompson

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

HYUFD

OchEye said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little

Lets of steam. Most people know it doesn't make any difference, but it gives them a chance to influence the political spectrum And most governments allow it, to be shown as if they are actually listening, when in fact they mostly don't give a damn

It is all about being seen to back a cause rather than really doing much to achieve it

Sean_F

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

HYUFD

BigRich said:

HYUFD said:

BigRich said:

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

His Paris visit was also before his trade war with the EU and his separating migrant children from their parents.

Plenty of protesters were using it as an anti Brexit and even anti Tory rally judging by placards not just anti Trump, those are not issues in Paris under Macron and En Marche.

Plus London is really the New York of Europe now not Paris

yes good points, but still surprised that there were no memorable protests

Maybe next time. So far there have been numerous anti Trump protests in New York, DC, California and London but few if any in continental Europe

kle4

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

Quite so. It's about being particularly visible or showy about displaying what you think is a virtue.

Benpointer

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

Quite so. It's about being particularly visible or showy about displaying what you think is a virtue.

That's fair... but the right never seem to be accused of virtue-signalling; I just wondered if that's because they have no virtues to signal.

But to be fair, I did add a 'wink' to provide some clear tongue-in-cheek-signalling.

SouthamObserver

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

Quite so. It's about being particularly visible or showy about displaying what you think is a virtue.

People who accuse others of virtue signalling are, of course, virtue signalling.

kle4

Benpointer said:

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

Quite so. It's about being particularly visible or showy about displaying what you think is a virtue.

That's fair... but the right never seem to be accused of virtue-signalling; I just wondered if that's because they have no virtues to signal.

But to be fair, I did add a 'wink' to provide some clear toungue-in-cheek-signalling.

Oh I know, but I truly think it an apt political descriptor. Snowflake is as I noted an even better example. It seems to be more commonly applied to the left, but I defy someone to tell my why it cannot be applied very well to some on the right.

solarflare

Looking forward to his last day in office where he's sitting in the Oval Office and his evil doppleganger walks in and together they look at the camera and shout "punked!".

Seems to be the only plausible explanation for how he can spout such entirely contradictory stuff and then fail to understand why everyone's looking at him so bemusedly.

At the moment I think a magic 8-ball would have more gravitas as President of the United States and probably make more sense.

Freggles

HYUFD said:

Piers Morgan has the only UK interview with Trump while he is in Britain on Air Force One coming up on ITV or so he casually mentions

https://mobile.twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1017841362425778177

Yeah, BBC News channel mentioned that fact earlier on. More fun I'm sure.

SouthamObserver

solarflare said:

Looking forward to his last day in office where he's sitting in the Oval Office and his evil doppleganger walks in and together they look at the camera and shout "punked!".

Seems to be the only plausible explanation for how he can spout such entirely contradictory stuff and then fail to understand why everyone's looking at him so bemusedly.

At the moment I think a magic 8-ball would have more gravitas as President of the United States and probably make more sense.

Trump is a liar. That’s what he does. He lied his way through today because it was the easiest thing to do. The main takeaway of his trip is that he cannot be trusted.

Polruan

kle4 said:

Benpointer said:

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

Quite so. It's about being particularly visible or showy about displaying what you think is a virtue.

That's fair... but the right never seem to be accused of virtue-signalling; I just wondered if that's because they have no virtues to signal.

But to be fair, I did add a 'wink' to provide some clear toungue-in-cheek-signalling.

Oh I know, but I truly think it an apt political descriptor. Snowflake is as I noted an even better example. It seems to be more commonly applied to the left, but I defy someone to tell my why it cannot be applied very well to some on the right.

In both cases it’s because they are right wing techniques to invalidate and dismiss the concerns of their left/liberal opponents. Accusations of virtue-signalling can be fair (eg the driver of a large hybrid SUV could perhaps decrease their environmental impact and save money by just driving a smaller petrol car, but that wouldn’t look as virtuous) but often are levelled at those who are protesting, campaigning and speaking out because that’s the only power that they have at their disposal. Generally it’s used as a form of whataboutery: your action against x is invalid because you could be doing y instead. It relies on the insinuation that the person accused is wasting valuable time in which they could be doing invisible good in order to make their good intentions visible, and contains the premise that visible engagement in the political process is not a legitimate way of doing good.

Toms

Living in their huge country a good many Americans are quite provincial about the rest of the world. Limited by his own coarse unstable mentality Trump, on stage, is playing up to those of them who are his supporters.
Personally. I sense a similar situation with many of our brexiters.

SouthamObserver

This is truly extraordinary. Melania Trump’s director of communications lying and lying again. Demonstrably. It’s terrifying when you think about it.
https://twitter.com/stephgrisham45/status/1017777230926270470?s=21

Sean_F

FF43 said:

Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

There's not a lot to take over. Creating a real single market in services is probably impossible, unless you can create a single legal system. Our trade in services with the EU is far less than our trade in goods.

By contrast, our trade in services with non EU countries is much greater than our trade in services with the EU. And, the domestic market in services is bigger than either.

We lose little if we are not part of the Single Market for services, but I doubt if the EU negotiators will agree this.

glw

SouthamObserver said:

This is truly extraordinary. Melania Trump’s director of communications lying and lying again. Demonstrably. It’s terrifying when you think about it.

What can they do? "Oh yeah he's lying again." That's a quick way to lose your job. Besides that they know that, implicitly at least, their job is to "make sense" of Trump's nosense and lies.

SouthamObserver

Sean_F said:

FF43 said:

Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

There's not a lot to take over. Creating a real single market in services is probably impossible, unless you can create a single legal system. Our trade in services with the EU is far less than our trade in goods.

By contrast, our trade in services with non EU countries is much greater than our trade in services with the EU. And, the domestic market in services is bigger than either.

We lose little if we are not part of the Single Market for services, but I doubt if the EU negotiators will agree this.

Don’t services make up 40% of our exports to the EU27. There’ll be a deal on them involving further UK concessions.

Gardenwalker

Sean_F said:

FF43 said:

Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

There's not a lot to take over. Creating a real single market in services is probably impossible, unless you can create a single legal system. Our trade in services with the EU is far less than our trade in goods.

By contrast, our trade in services with non EU countries is much greater than our trade in services with the EU. And, the domestic market in services is bigger than either.

We lose little if we are not part of the Single Market for services, but I doubt if the EU negotiators will agree this.

I don’t think this is right.

First, the domestic service market is largely irrelevant to any analysis. There are second order effects of trade on our internal market but they are not worth talking about.

Second, we are a services “superpower”. Our services exports are second only to the US globally. Our ratio of service:goods exports is highly unusual, at approx. 45% - about 10% higher than comparator countries.

(These numbers from memory).

Basically, we punch well above our weight on services and below our weight on goods exports.

Third, as far as I know, our service exports follow approx. the same pattern as goods, i.e., follow the gravity model of trade distributions ie. the EU is our biggest market.

Cutting ourselves out of the single market is deterimental to our golden goose : service exports.

rcs1000

BigRich said:

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

Also, the French have never really liked NATO

rcs1000

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

Oh, I don't personally think virtue signalling implies a lack of sincerity, necessarily, more just that the motivation is more about the individual signalling their virtue than what they are concerned about. Which is to say the emotion or thought conveyed may well be sincerely held, but the person is very conscious of how they are displaying it. It's a phrase I'm a fan of, like snowflake, because I think it can apply to left and right in the right circumstances.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.

I would say that some people deserve death, but we can't agree a fair and consistent standard to determine who deserves death.

And there have been plenty of people where we thought the evidence was incontrovertible...

Nigelb

Interesting that the Mueller indictment of the twelve Russians claims that they succeeded in hacking the Democrats’ data analytics. In such a close election it’s quite conceivable that such information, were it passed on to the opposing campaign, might have tipped the balance.


And if this is a ‘witch hunt’, they are turning up a lot of witches....

Sean_F

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

FF43 said:

Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

There's not a lot to take over. Creating a real single market in services is probably impossible, unless you can create a single legal system. Our trade in services with the EU is far less than our trade in goods.

By contrast, our trade in services with non EU countries is much greater than our trade in services with the EU. And, the domestic market in services is bigger than either.

We lose little if we are not part of the Single Market for services, but I doubt if the EU negotiators will agree this.

I don’t think this is right.

First, the domestic service market is largely irrelevant to any analysis. There are second order effects of trade on our internal market but they are not worth talking about.

Second, we are a services “superpower”. Our services exports are second only to the US globally. Our ratio of service:goods exports is highly unusual, at approx. 45% - about 10% higher than comparator countries.

(These numbers from memory).

Basically, we punch well above our weight on services and below our weight on goods exports.

Third, as far as I know, our service exports follow approx. the same pattern as goods, i.e., follow the gravity model of trade distributions ie. the EU is our biggest market.

Cutting ourselves out of the single market is deterimental to our golden goose : service exports.

I don't think the Single Market works to our advantage at all. We have a humungous trade deficit with the countries that make up the Single Market, partly offset by a large trade surplus with the countries that don't. That might change if there were one legal system across the Single Market (enabling me, for example, to practise as a solicitor in France after qualifying in England) but that will never happen. It would require individual nations (and regions within nations) to give up too much independence.

I'd rather we were not part of the Single Market at all, but recognise that leaving the Single Market in its entirety would be massively disruptive to companies like Nissan, Honda, and Airbus. Therefore, remaining within it for goods, but not for services seems reasonable.

But, as I say, I don't think the EU negotiators will buy such a proposal.

SandyRentool

rcs1000 said:

BigRich said:

With reference to today's Anti Trump Parch:

What striks me is the contrast to Trumps visit to France, when he visited France IIRC there were no protests, that I remember, (perhaps some but small and did not get in the news), why?

Possible reasonses:

1) Macron showed leadership by stating 'French voters don't get to chose the president of America'

2) French people, realize/think that being nice or at least civil to powerful people is more likely good outcomes for France.

3) The British, watch/follow US news more because its in English and therefor feel more passion about it.

4) Trump, by saying overall nice things about the UK, has prompted his opponents here to go out of there way to show there hostility?

I don't know, may be a bit of all, perhaps considering the protests against bush a few years ago and lake of protests of Dictators of places like china is is mostly 3) but would love to hear PBs thoughts of the contrast.

Also, the French have never really liked NATO

They can't even spell it.

Sean_F

rcs1000 said:

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

Benpointer said:

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@Richard_Nabavi From what I’ve seen on my timeline, some are going out there and doing it because they are concerned that if Trump coming is just treated as normal visit, then that contributes to the normalisation of Trumpism.

@kle4 The virtue signalling accusation though implies a lack of sincerity in what someone is doing that you are simply ‘putting on a show’ of moral superiority as opposed to genuinely caring about said matter. I doubt the protestors are faking it, anyone who makes the effort to go out there today must genuinely be against Trump.

.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jesus christ this semi final in the tennis...if they aren't careful, we will have Brexit'ed by the time they have finished.

If only!

I don't criticise most people protesting about Trump. It's their right to do so. I do think the baby balloon is a puerile form of protest, but people are entitled to be puerile. And, the man is an arse.

WRT virtue-signalling, I suppose the archetype is the Just Pharisee. He is in no sense a hypocrite (he lives up to his beliefs). But, he wants everyone to know how virtuous he is. As you say, there is right wing virtue signalling as well as left wing.

I'm struggling to think what virtue a right-winger might possess to be able signal.

I suggested advocating the death penalty for Thomas Mair. Seriously, when people debate the death penalty that case should be used. Forget miscarriage of justice, forget mental health, simply, is it right or wrong.

The argument against the death penalty is not that no one deserves death but that no one should deal death.

I would say that some people deserve death, but we can't agree a fair and consistent standard to determine who deserves death.

And there have been plenty of people where we thought the evidence was incontrovertible...

Assume that the evidence is perfect in every case, for the sake of argument.

I still don't see how you come up with a method of determining who dies that is both consistent. and fair.

Killing every person who was convicted of murder would be consistent, but certainly not fair. Most murderers are not evil people. So, then you fall back on arguments as to whether murderer X is more sympathetic than murder Y.

Gardenwalker

Sean_F said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sean_F said:

FF43 said:

Some Germans seem to be keen on the Chequers proposal They keep selling us their cars but get to take over our services business as well. I was wondering if they might be tempted by a spot of cherry picking.

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1017745499607240705

There's not a lot to take over. Creating a real single market in services is probably impossible, unless you can create a single legal system. Our trade in services with the EU is far less than our trade in goods.

By contrast, our trade in services with non EU countries is much greater than our trade in services with the EU. And, the domestic market in services is bigger than either.

We lose little if we are not part of the Single Market for services, but I doubt if the EU negotiators will agree this.

I don’t think this is right.

First, the domestic service market is largely irrelevant to any analysis. There are second order effects of trade on our internal market but they are not worth talking about.

Second, we are a services “superpower”. Our services exports are second only to the US globally. Our ratio of service:goods exports is highly unusual, at approx. 45% - about 10% higher than comparator countries.

(These numbers from memory).

Basically, we punch well above our weight on services and below our weight on goods exports.

Third, as far as I know, our service exports follow approx. the same pattern as goods, i.e., follow the gravity model of trade distributions ie. the EU is our biggest market.

Cutting ourselves out of the single market is deterimental to our golden goose : service exports.

But, as I say, I don't think the EU negotiators will buy such a proposal.

You are wrong.

To the extent the single market is disadvantageous - which few economists would contend - it is the effect on our *goods* trade, where we have a deficit — not on our services trade, where it has been an absolute boon.

There might be an argument to be had about the appropriateness of single market rules for financial and digital services - thus the idea that we might exclude these from any deal with the EU on single market access. But you are not making that argument.

As you say, the single (service) market is imperfect. We do not have and frankly would never want a single legal system.

But the idea that the single market is bad for service trade, when the economy has been increasingly and successfully specialising in services for the past 25 years, is not right.

TheWhiteRabbit

SouthamObserver said:

This is truly extraordinary. Melania Trump’s director of communications lying and lying again. Demonstrably. It’s terrifying when you think about it.
https://twitter.com/stephgrisham45/status/1017777230926270470?s=21

It's a bit dystopian to think that POTUS can declare black is white and up is down.

NickPalmer

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little

Personally both the above marches reinforced my determination to vote the other way - I disliked the abusive elements (though both had perfectly civil elements too) and felt I wasn't willing to be pushed around. The demo that actually made me have another think was a completely silent march by Tamils about Sri Lanka - that seemed impressive, dignified and worth paying attention to.

kle4

Polruan said:

kle4 said:

Benpointer said:

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

Quite so. It's about being particularly visible or showy about displaying what you think is a virtue.

That's fair... but the right never seem to be accused of virtue-signalling; I just wondered if that's because they have no virtues to signal.

But to be fair, I did add a 'wink' to provide some clear toungue-in-cheek-signalling.

Oh I know, but I truly think it an apt political descriptor. Snowflake is as I noted an even better example. It seems to be more commonly applied to the left, but I defy someone to tell my why it cannot be applied very well to some on the right.

In both cases it’s because they are right wing techniques to invalidate and dismiss the concerns of their left/liberal opponents.

But that's my point - they don't need to be purely right wing techniques. I'm in favour of the term useful idiots for the same reason, it doesn't have to be tied to one wing.

kle4

SouthamObserver said:

solarflare said:

Looking forward to his last day in office where he's sitting in the Oval Office and his evil doppleganger walks in and together they look at the camera and shout "punked!".

Seems to be the only plausible explanation for how he can spout such entirely contradictory stuff and then fail to understand why everyone's looking at him so bemusedly.

At the moment I think a magic 8-ball would have more gravitas as President of the United States and probably make more sense.

Trump is a liar. That’s what he does. He lied his way through today because it was the easiest thing to do.

It's worked for him so far.

Sean_F

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Today has been huge fun for everyone. It means pretty much nothing.

When was the last March that changed policy? Not even the Iraq War March or Countryside March achieved their aims of stopping the Iraq War or keeping hunting legal. If you want to change policy vote, or stand iin elections or join a political party. Matching can be a good day out but changes little

Personally both the above marches reinforced my determination to vote the other way - I disliked the abusive elements (though both had perfectly civil elements too) and felt I wasn't willing to be pushed around. The demo that actually made me have another think was a completely silent march by Tamils about Sri Lanka - that seemed impressive, dignified and worth paying attention to.

Overall, I think it's great that people can demonstrate, even if I think that many of the causes are stupid. Imagine living in a society where you could not demonstrate.

williamglenn

Trump has now left the UK to go to Scotland.
https://twitter.com/whitehouse/status/1017867274349436930?s=21

GIN1138

williamglenn said:

Trump has now left the UK to go to Scotland.
https://twitter.com/whitehouse/status/1017867274349436930?s=21

Wonder whether he'll be hooking up and Nicola and Alex while he's "in the north" ???

Nigelb

TheWhiteRabbit said:

SouthamObserver said:

This is truly extraordinary. Melania Trump’s director of communications lying and lying again. Demonstrably. It’s terrifying when you think about it.
https://twitter.com/stephgrisham45/status/1017777230926270470?s=21

It's a bit dystopian to think that POTUS can declare black is white and up is down.

That he’s an insouciant liar isn’t - but that his entire administration, and the bulk of the Republican party, are shamelessly complicit is.

GIN1138

Think we might have our first Mega Polling Saturday since Theresa's election balls up tomorrow?

Surely the Sunday papers will want to see how far the Tories are plummeting in the polls after Chequers?

Better have an early night...

Polruan

kle4 said:

Polruan said:

kle4 said:

Benpointer said:

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Let me know next time you spot someone on the right being accused of virtue-signalling.

That is because the left would rather pretend their opponents have no virtues and deny their principles as being such than to use an accusation like virtue signalling. The very phrase runs counter to pretending your opposition are selfish and have no principles.

The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that you can still be virtue-signalling by expressing horrible opinions, so long as many people in your society think that they are virtuous opinions.

Quite so. It's about being particularly visible or showy about displaying what you think is a virtue.

That's fair... but the right never seem to be accused of virtue-signalling; I just wondered if that's because they have no virtues to signal.

But to be fair, I did add a 'wink' to provide some clear toungue-in-cheek-signalling.

Oh I know, but I truly think it an apt political descriptor. Snowflake is as I noted an even better example. It seems to be more commonly applied to the left, but I defy someone to tell my why it cannot be applied very well to some on the right.

In both cases it’s because they are right wing techniques to invalidate and dismiss the concerns of their left/liberal opponents.

But that's my point - they don't need to be purely right wing techniques. I'm in favour of the term useful idiots for the same reason, it doesn't have to be tied to one wing.

I agree, it’s just that its prevalence on one side of the debate arises from where the term originated. There’s no logical inconsistency in applying it more widely.

RobD

williamglenn said:

Trump has now left the UK to go to Scotland.
https://twitter.com/whitehouse/status/1017867274349436930?s=21

Technically it was before he left the UK

Sean_F

GIN1138 said:

Think we might have our first Mega Polling Saturday since Theresa's election balls up tomorrow?

Surely the Sunday papers will want to see how far the Tories are plummeting in the polls after Chequers?

Better have an early night...

I imagine the Tories will take a hit, but not a huge one.

OchEye

GIN1138 said:

williamglenn said:

Trump has now left the UK to go to Scotland.
https://twitter.com/whitehouse/status/1017867274349436930?s=21

Wonder whether he'll be hooking up and Nicola and Alex while he's "in the north" ???

Nope! Neither are besties with Trump these days.... And it used to be so different, menage a trois ..

Richard_Nabavi

Sean_F said:

GIN1138 said:

Think we might have our first Mega Polling Saturday since Theresa's election balls up tomorrow?

Surely the Sunday papers will want to see how far the Tories are plummeting in the polls after Chequers?

Better have an early night...

I imagine the Tories will take a hit, but not a huge one.

My hunch is little change . Some Brexiteers saying they'll vote UKIP or stay at home, balanced by some people relieved that she's steering a central course.