If Barnier rejects the plan then May has to walk away.
... She's not prepared to walk away....
Why do you think that is, I wonder?
She's petrified and doesn't believe in it. In which case she should never have ran at the time.
If you're not prepared to walk away cleanly you will never get a good negotiation.
It's exactly the same as that to have a good peace you must be prepared to fight, to get a good negotiation you must be prepared to walk away. Barnier is prepared to, May is not, so May has zero power or influence.
There's a much simpler explanation: the consequences of walking away would be utterly disastrous.
Well then maybe in the referendum when Leavers were proposing we walk away and take back control maybe those who believe walking away would be a disaster should have said so?
Except they did and we chose to take back control anyway despite it apparently risking disaster.
In order to take back control we need to be prepared to walk away and risk disaster if need be. Otherwise we may as well tell the EU that we are their vassal and will do whatever they want.
No Leavers said anyone who warned about the economic risks of Brexit were peddling project fear.
Yes so take both at their word. Be prepared to do what the leavers said and if the risks turn out to be not there then they were right and if disaster happens the Remainers were right.
If leavers were now saying don't prepare for No Deal then you'd have a point that they his risks but they're not
Can anybody advise, I am having a problem with vanilla not updating comments it seems to be about an hour or two behind when its on my iphone, any ideas why?
Theresa May’s new policy will prevail in the Conservative party’s internal battle over Britain’s future relationship with the EU. The main reason for this is that the UK’s prime minister is no longer working against the grain of logic, but very much with it.
Can anybody advise, I am having a problem with vanilla not updating comments it seems to be about an hour or two behind when its on my iphone, any ideas why?
You need to be actually logged in to see the updates (I think).
Can anybody advise, I am having a problem with vanilla not updating comments it seems to be about an hour or two behind when its on my iphone, any ideas why?
You need to be actually logged in to see the updates (I think).
The mot exclusive PBers get to see comments before they are even made. Handy for those juicy betting tips.
The snp lost the support of business and ultimately lost their hopes of independence and with Brexit it is the same. Brexiters can blame who they want but they need to look at themselves. Boris summed up why a hard Brexit was never going to happen. There is an argument for a hard Brexit but it requires the government to turn around and say Fook the consumer. This has happened in Switzerland where my beef steak this weekend cost. £15 at the local supermarket or in Korea where only borrowing for heavy capital investment is allowed. No cheap car loans. Or in Ireland business is told forgot about paying taxes even when part of eu.
Can anybody advise, I am having a problem with vanilla not updating comments it seems to be about an hour or two behind when its on my iphone, any ideas why?
You need to be actually logged in to see the updates (I think).
I have iphone SE but when i try to login it does not let me says site is 'unsecure' ?
If Barnier rejects the plan then May has to walk away.
... She's not prepared to walk away....
Why do you think that is, I wonder?
She's petrified and doesn't believe in it. In which case she should never have ran at the time.
If you're not prepared to walk away cleanly you will never get a good negotiation.
It's exactly the same as that to have a good peace you must be prepared to fight, to get a good negotiation you must be prepared to walk away. Barnier is prepared to, May is not, so May has zero power or influence.
There's a much simpler explanation: the consequences of walking away would be utterly disastrous.
Well then maybe in the referendum when Leavers were proposing we walk away and take back control maybe those who believe walking away would be a disaster should have said so?
Except they did and we chose to take back control anyway despite it apparently risking disaster.
In order to take back control we need to be prepared to walk away and risk disaster if need be. Otherwise we may as well tell the EU that we are their vassal and will do whatever they want.
No Leavers said anyone who warned about the economic risks of Brexit were peddling project fear.
Even if you call it project fear or not - it was still stated before the vote, and actually I voted remain because it seemed to much of a economic risk. Let’s be honest a significant part of the economic analysis provided by remain has already been disproved. Whether you think a punishment budget etc was Project Fear or not I’ll leave it up to you.
I thought a lot of the opposition to that was the reduction to 600 seats which has now gone?
It hasn't gone at all. The proposal to cancel the reduction to 600 seats was in the Afzal Khan private members bill, which the Gvt has disgracefully blocked from proceeding despite the Commons voting for it at 2nd reading (take back control huh?)
The final proposals to be sent to Gvt in September. I just wonder if they will pull a fast one, and move the proposals for England Wales and Scotland, and not NI (they can do this apparently) Would be sneaky but wouldn't put it past the Tories when desperate.
Theresa May’s new policy will prevail in the Conservative party’s internal battle over Britain’s future relationship with the EU. The main reason for this is that the UK’s prime minister is no longer working against the grain of logic, but very much with it.
Can anybody advise, I am having a problem with vanilla not updating comments it seems to be about an hour or two behind when its on my iphone, any ideas why?
You need to be actually logged in to see the updates (I think).
I have iphone SE but when i try to login it does not let me says site is 'unsecure' ?
That is a problem that will only get worse. RCS needs to stop messing about making videos and turn pb into an https site. Browsers are becoming more and more sniffy about insecure ones, and the next release of Chrome will ratchet up the stakes even more.
Can anybody advise, I am having a problem with vanilla not updating comments it seems to be about an hour or two behind when its on my iphone, any ideas why?
Also, when you,re not logged in, the time reverts to GMT
Not at a tv at present - who is the weirdo among so many
Some guy with an absolutely massive "Brexit - It is worth it" sign on parliament green and then as soon as Sky start to interview somebody he runs up and waves around smaller versions of the same sign in the background. He looks a right odd one.
He's enjoying himself and doing no harm. Let him be.
The joys of filming in a public park!
His banner actually says: “Brexit: is it worth it?” and is draped in a Union flag with twelve stars on it, so I’d say he’s more likely to be a mad Remainer than a mad Brexiteer.
If Barnier rejects the plan then May has to walk away.
... She's not prepared to walk away....
Why do you think that is, I wonder?
She's petrified and doesn't believe in it. In which case she should never have ran at the time.
If you're not prepared to walk away cleanly you will never get a good negotiation.
It's exactly the same as that to have a good peace you must be prepared to fight, to get a good negotiation you must be prepared to walk away. Barnier is prepared to, May is not, so May has zero power or influence.
There's a much simpler explanation: the consequences of walking away would be utterly disastrous.
Well then maybe in the referendum when Leavers were proposing we walk away and take back control maybe those who believe walking away would be a disaster should have said so?
Except they did and we chose to take back control anyway despite it apparently risking disaster.
In order to take back control we need to be prepared to walk away and risk disaster if need be. Otherwise we may as well tell the EU that we are their vassal and will do whatever they want.
No Leavers said anyone who warned about the economic risks of Brexit were peddling project fear.
Me? Are you kidding? I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way the Leavers fell into our trap? Ha Ha!
If Barnier rejects the plan then May has to walk away.
... She's not prepared to walk away....
Why do you think that is, I wonder?
She's petrified and doesn't believe in it. In which case she should never have ran at the time.
If you're not prepared to walk away cleanly you will never get a good negotiation.
It's exactly the same as that to have a good peace you must be prepared to fight, to get a good negotiation you must be prepared to walk away. Barnier is prepared to, May is not, so May has zero power or influence.
There's a much simpler explanation: the consequences of walking away would be utterly disastrous.
It would be today, but how much of a disaster would it be if the government had spent the last two and a bit years planning for it, investing in customs infrastructure, subsidising industry to help lengthen supply chains, getting the existing EU-Third country deals rolled over? Instead we've done no planning, the trade secretary has been too busy kissing Don's arse and industry has no fucking clue as to what the fallback position is and can't plan anything.
Yeah, anyone who voted Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2017 must be pretty embarrassed right about now.
TBH only either Labour or a stronger Tory government can see Brexit through.
If Barnier rejects the plan then May has to walk away.
... She's not prepared to walk away....
Why do you think that is, I wonder?
She's petrified and doesn't believe in it. In which case she should never have ran at the time.
If you're not prepared to walk away cleanly you will never get a good negotiation.
It's exactly the same as that to have a good peace you must be prepared to fight, to get a good negotiation you must be prepared to walk away. Barnier is prepared to, May is not, so May has zero power or influence.
There's a much simpler explanation: the consequences of walking away would be utterly disastrous.
Well then maybe in the referendum when Leavers were proposing we walk away and take back control maybe those who believe walking away would be a disaster should have said so?
Except they did and we chose to take back control anyway despite it apparently risking disaster.
In order to take back control we need to be prepared to walk away and risk disaster if need be. Otherwise we may as well tell the EU that we are their vassal and will do whatever they want.
No Leavers said anyone who warned about the economic risks of Brexit were peddling project fear.
This, of course, is the massive flaw in the whole thing. The "leave" coalition was free to peddle *every* form of the argument, however contradictory. The "remain" coalition had no concrete "alternatives" to peddle (having burned their options *before* the referendum with the damp squib renegotiation).
So yes - Project Fear on the one hand, and Take Back Control Whatever The Cost on the other. Contradictory. Impossible to reconcile. And the basis on which we are leaving.
If Barnier rejects the plan then May has to walk away.
... She's not prepared to walk away....
Why do you think that is, I wonder?
She's petrified and doesn't believe in it. In which case she should never have ran at the time.
If you're not prepared to walk away cleanly you will never get a good negotiation.
It's exactly the same as that to have a good peace you must be prepared to fight, to get a good negotiation you must be prepared to walk away. Barnier is prepared to, May is not, so May has zero power or influence.
There's a much simpler explanation: the consequences of walking away would be utterly disastrous.
It would be today, but how much of a disaster would it be if the government had spent the last two and a bit years planning for it, investing in customs infrastructure, subsidising industry to help lengthen supply chains, getting the existing EU-Third country deals rolled over? Instead we've done no planning, the trade secretary has been too busy kissing Don's arse and industry has no fucking clue as to what the fallback position is and can't plan anything.
Yeah, anyone who voted Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2017 must be pretty embarrassed right about now.
TBH only either Labour or a stronger Tory government can see Brexit through.
Labour????? The majority of their MPs want to cancel Brexit
"The British public knew exactly what they were voting for"
This isn't Brexit
"I don't agree"
If Brexiteers can't agree if this is Brexit or not, how the fuck can they claim we knew what we were voting for?
Haven't some of the most heated exchanges on here been between Brexiters who have argued with each other over what any particular preferred flavour of Brexit actually means.
Not at a tv at present - who is the weirdo among so many
Some guy with an absolutely massive "Brexit - It is worth it" sign on parliament green and then as soon as Sky start to interview somebody he runs up and waves around smaller versions of the same sign in the background. He looks a right odd one.
He's enjoying himself and doing no harm. Let him be.
The joys of filming in a public park!
His banner actually says: “Brexit: is it worth it?” and is draped in a Union flag with twelve stars on it, so I’d say he’s more likely to be a mad Remainer than a mad Brexiteer.
"The British public knew exactly what they were voting for"
This isn't Brexit
"I don't agree"
If Brexiteers can't agree if this is Brexit or not, how the fuck can they claim we knew what we were voting for?
Haven't some of the most heated exchanges on here been between Brexiters who have argued with each other over what any particular preferred flavour of Brexit actually means.
Even as May's deal is denounced for being "not Brexit" some of the original EFTA/EEA lot are still arguing that it was only project fear from the Remain campaign that said Brexit meant leaving the single market.
Theresa May’s new policy will prevail in the Conservative party’s internal battle over Britain’s future relationship with the EU. The main reason for this is that the UK’s prime minister is no longer working against the grain of logic, but very much with it.
Not at a tv at present - who is the weirdo among so many
Some guy with an absolutely massive "Brexit - It is worth it" sign on parliament green and then as soon as Sky start to interview somebody he runs up and waves around smaller versions of the same sign in the background. He looks a right odd one.
He's enjoying himself and doing no harm. Let him be.
The joys of filming in a public park!
His banner actually says: “Brexit: is it worth it?” and is draped in a Union flag with twelve stars on it, so I’d say he’s more likely to be a mad Remainer than a mad Brexiteer.
I was referring to the leprechaun.
There’s now I think four Remain protestors annoying the hell out of Adam Boulton on College Green. They’re waving EU flags and wearing hats that say “Stop Brexit” as well as the aforementioned signs. Rather amusing if you’re not a Sky News producer, democracy’s fun sometimes!
I can buy in to all that. He would most certainly have my vote on this. Feminists are fighting a battle that was won decades ago all they are doing now is recreating systems to benefit girls in a society they are not disadvantaged.
"The British public knew exactly what they were voting for"
This isn't Brexit
"I don't agree"
If Brexiteers can't agree if this is Brexit or not, how the fuck can they claim we knew what we were voting for?
It's a damn shame the Referendum voting form didn't spell out in some small print at the bottom what 'Leave' vote meant e.g. exit EU, SM, CU.
Whose fault is that though? The referendum was set up so Vote Leave could tempt us with undeliverable and contradictory nonsense - enough to win the vote but not enough to implement anything afterwards. Once we pulled the A50 trigger we were always heading somewhere here.
I'm one of many who initially accepted the vote, but it then dawned on me quite how clueless those in charge were and their mouths had got leaps ahead of their ability to deliver. I'd still be delighted if we could find a way out - I just wonder if June 2016 will soon feel like a long time ago.
"The British public knew exactly what they were voting for"
This isn't Brexit
"I don't agree"
If Brexiteers can't agree if this is Brexit or not, how the fuck can they claim we knew what we were voting for?
A second referendum is surely inevitable now. This can't go on.
It is certainly a lot closer than it was this time yesterday.
It is clear that * leavers have no agreed definition of what "Brexit" means in practice; * the current government will not be able to come up with a Brexit deal that can gain the support of the Tory Party or Parliament.
So it's either a cliff edge Brexit or a collapse of the entire process. Which could well result in a new referendum.
2 Brexiteers on DP. Both of them claim the British public knew what they voted for.
One says they are delivering it
One says they are being betrayed
And Leadsom claiming preferential treatment for EU migrants over people from the rest of the world would definitely end and it was a red line for her - with Laura K pointing out that was not Mrs May's position when she was interviewed by her at the weekend.
Laura K also informed Leadsom that Davis had been offered her job by No 10 to keep him in the government. What a mess.
I did think Steve Baker was rather dignified even though he was obviously upset.
"The British public knew exactly what they were voting for"
This isn't Brexit
"I don't agree"
If Brexiteers can't agree if this is Brexit or not, how the fuck can they claim we knew what we were voting for?
A second referendum is surely inevitable now. This can't go on.
It is certainly a lot closer than it was this time yesterday.
It is clear that * leavers have no agreed definition of what "Brexit" means in practice; * the current government will not be able to come up with a Brexit deal that can gain the support of the Tory Party or Parliament.
So it's either a cliff edge Brexit or a collapse of the entire process. Which could well result in a new referendum.
Max not a good look especially in advance of your wedding.
What's his wedding got to do with anything ?
Championing a potentially misogynist sentiment in advance of your own wedding (assuming he is marrying a woman) is I don't think well-judged.
Don't worry, I think my soon to be wife agrees with my sentiments. She's no fan of modern feminists either, plus she's Swiss so to her our Conservatives are pretty tame.
my local council made a big fuss about how it was banning plastic use where it can to save the seas. But its the f**king collection and recycling authority. There are no circumstances in which the stuff that it collects, shreds and either burns or buries is going to end up in the sea. Total virtue signalling shi*e.
Max not a good look especially in advance of your wedding.
What's his wedding got to do with anything ?
Championing a potentially misogynist sentiment in advance of your own wedding (assuming he is marrying a woman) is I don't think well-judged.
Does what he said really constitute misogyny?
Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis. Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations. One FT commentator recently complained that: ‘High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren’t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.’ Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots.
I like how she advocates "restoring faith in the democratic process" by:
- Appointing someone to the legislature; - That person being the former leader of a party which won less than 2% at the last election; - Allowing that person to run in a Party leadership (which is against the Party's rules, which states that only MPs can run).
That said, given his influence on British politics, Farage should have a peerage (though he'd then have to choose between sitting in the Lords or the EP, so he might have already been offered one and turned it down). Brexiteers are woefully under-represented in the Lords.
That's appalling. Didn't the Clarkson one get millions? I think the people's vote would be better off without oddballs like Grayling and Adonis leading them.
That's appalling. Didn't the Clarkson one get millions? I think the people's vote would be better off without oddballs like Grayling and Adonis leading them.
The choice of Raab as Brexit Secretary is an interesting one. A Leaver like Davis May is clearly making a sop to Brexiteers while as a former corporate lawyer with a law degree from Oxford and a Master's degree from Cambridge he should be an intellectual match for Barnier
Representatives for the remaining 27-member states admitted that Mr Davis had been frozen out of the negotiations long ago in favour of Theresa May’s top Brexit civil servant Oliver Robbins and that his departure would make little practical difference to the talks.
"Davis' resignation will be framed as not taking responsibility for a soft Brexit but looks more like not taking responsibility at all,” one EU diplomat said, “It is starting to look like the flight of the Brexiteers.”
“They landed your country in a mess and now they’re leaving for higher ground. Rats and sinking ships...that age old tale," the diplomat added.
Hard to take responsibility once you've been frozen out....
The choice of Raab as Brexit Secretary is an interesting one. A Leaver like Davis May is clearly making a sop to Brexiteers while as a former corporate lawyer with a law degree from Oxford and a Master's degree from Cambridge he should be an intellectual match for Barnier
Unless Raab has demanded Robbins is sacked from the negotiations before he took the job then it is essentially a non-job.
But it could well be a spring-board to being in pole position to replace Theresa whenever the Tories pull the plug on her.
I have reluctantly accepted that we are heading for a full fudge brexit, and can only hope that TM doesn't give the EU any more concessions (though I fully expect she will) , but at least we have managed to avoid getting sucked into a full political integration of Europe which is clearly heading for one president, one anthem, one flag, one army, one currency, ECJ, tax harmonisation, - one undemocratic superstate. we have at least escaped the worst of the EU, and when it all goes tits up, we will be on the outside - thankfully
"The British public knew exactly what they were voting for"
This isn't Brexit
"I don't agree"
If Brexiteers can't agree if this is Brexit or not, how the fuck can they claim we knew what we were voting for?
A second referendum is surely inevitable now. This can't go on.
It is certainly a lot closer than it was this time yesterday.
It is clear that * leavers have no agreed definition of what "Brexit" means in practice; * the current government will not be able to come up with a Brexit deal that can gain the support of the Tory Party or Parliament.
So it's either a cliff edge Brexit or a collapse of the entire process. Which could well result in a new referendum.
Time to extend A50 that's for sure.
May would not be able to get that through her Party. And if she tried to do it with opposition votes the government would collapse. I think I am right in saying that extending article 50 requires primary legislation in the UK and unanimity in the EU - neither of which will be easy.
That's appalling. Didn't the Clarkson one get millions? I think the people's vote would be better off without oddballs like Grayling and Adonis leading them.
Isn’t the record something like 2m for the one demanding an EU referendum, or the one simply asking Gordon Brown to resign.?
63% Remain in the UK? That's totally out of line with pollsters here.
Note the age group.
Then the graphic doesn't agree with the text.
Edit: Oh, I'm dumb... it's after DK excluded.
What's significant is the trend and the fact that the UK is following the same trend. People increasingly value the EU and don't want to give it up.
Or is it a reversion to trend after the Eurozone crisis?
If it is, it's reflected in the UK as well, even as we're supposedly heading for the sunlit uplands of Brexit.
It should be abundantly clear that there is no future in Brexit. All we can do is look for a way to exit from it with dignity.
Looking at the barometer results PDF, the net 'positive' view of the EU was higher back in the mid 2000s, suffering a dip around 2010, and is now slowly recovering.
The choice of Raab as Brexit Secretary is an interesting one. A Leaver like Davis May is clearly making a sop to Brexiteers while as a former corporate lawyer with a law degree from Oxford and a Master's degree from Cambridge he should be an intellectual match for Barnier
Comments
If leavers were now saying don't prepare for No Deal then you'd have a point that they his risks but they're not
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1016235638868332544
https://www.ft.com/content/b6a5a89e-8303-11e8-96dd-fa565ec55929
We've not heard a word from him in days and days.
Theresa might even have him tied up in the Downing St. basement...
Even with the DUP on board it only takes a handful of Tory MPs to rebel
The final proposals to be sent to Gvt in September. I just wonder if they will pull a fast one, and move the proposals for England Wales and Scotland, and not NI (they can do this apparently) Would be sneaky but wouldn't put it past the Tories when desperate.
And why they resigned, or didn't.
His banner actually says: “Brexit: is it worth it?” and is draped in a Union flag with twelve stars on it, so I’d say he’s more likely to be a mad Remainer than a mad Brexiteer.
TBH only either Labour or a stronger Tory government can see Brexit through.
https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1016260396624351232
So yes - Project Fear on the one hand, and Take Back Control Whatever The Cost on the other. Contradictory. Impossible to reconcile. And the basis on which we are leaving.
"The British public knew exactly what they were voting for"
This isn't Brexit
"I don't agree"
If Brexiteers can't agree if this is Brexit or not, how the fuck can they claim we knew what we were voting for?
To be fair, things probably would have been quieter under Miliband.
It's a view.....
One says they are delivering it
One says they are being betrayed
Terrible party management from Theresa May again.
I'm one of many who initially accepted the vote, but it then dawned on me quite how clueless those in charge were and their mouths had got leaps ahead of their ability to deliver. I'd still be delighted if we could find a way out - I just wonder if June 2016 will soon feel like a long time ago.
It is clear that
* leavers have no agreed definition of what "Brexit" means in practice;
* the current government will not be able to come up with a Brexit deal that can gain the support of the Tory Party or Parliament.
So it's either a cliff edge Brexit or a collapse of the entire process. Which could well result in a new referendum.
Laura K also informed Leadsom that Davis had been offered her job by No 10 to keep him in the government. What a mess.
I did think Steve Baker was rather dignified even though he was obviously upset.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1016275509712490496
Theresa's been taking the piss. Not just at her Brexiteer colleagues but at the 17.4m who voted Brexit who they are in the Cabinet to represent.
I don't see any circumstance where Corbyn and May will want to go back for another go.
Edit: Oh, I'm dumb... it's after DK excluded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Győr
Representatives for the remaining 27-member states admitted that Mr Davis had been frozen out of the negotiations long ago in favour of Theresa May’s top Brexit civil servant Oliver Robbins and that his departure would make little practical difference to the talks.
"Davis' resignation will be framed as not taking responsibility for a soft Brexit but looks more like not taking responsibility at all,” one EU diplomat said, “It is starting to look like the flight of the Brexiteers.”
“They landed your country in a mess and now they’re leaving for higher ground. Rats and sinking ships...that age old tale," the diplomat added.
Hard to take responsibility once you've been frozen out....
But it could well be a spring-board to being in pole position to replace Theresa whenever the Tories pull the plug on her.
It should be abundantly clear that there is no future in Brexit. All we can do is look for a way to exit from it with dignity.
http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Survey/getSurveyDetail/instruments/STANDARD/surveyKy/2180
(My coat awaits)